:00:41. > :00:44.Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:44. > :00:46.Vladimir Putin has swept back to power in Moscow. But here, at
:00:47. > :00:50.Westminster, nothing is quite as certain. The Chancellor, George
:00:50. > :00:53.Osborne, is under pressure to backtrack on plans to cut child
:00:53. > :00:57.benefit for the middle classes. We won't find out until the Budget
:00:57. > :01:01.later this month. But is the ground being prepared for some kind of
:01:01. > :01:05.concession? His colleague Ken Clarke will be with us, to explain
:01:05. > :01:07.why he thinks cuts to legal aid will not prevent the poorest having
:01:07. > :01:10.access to justice. David Cameron's closest colleague,
:01:10. > :01:14.Steve Hilton, quits government, for a sabbatical abroad. So, who will
:01:14. > :01:18.the PM turn to now for advice? We'll bring you our guide to the
:01:18. > :01:22.powers behind the scenes in Downing Street.
:01:22. > :01:32.And, one former MP calls on Nick Clegg to stand aside as Lib Dem
:01:32. > :01:34.
:01:34. > :01:37.party leader, in order to rebuild All that in the hour. And with us
:01:37. > :01:41.in our Westminster dacha this Monday is the former Downing Street
:01:41. > :01:44.policy chief James O'Shaughnessy, who now runs his own consultancy.
:01:44. > :01:49.So, if you have any thoughts or comments on anything we're
:01:49. > :01:52.discussing, then you can tweet your comments using the hashtag, #bbcdp.
:01:53. > :01:56.But first, we've just heard that the Home Secretary Theresa May is
:01:56. > :01:59.now in Jordan, where she is talking to senior Jordanian officials about
:01:59. > :02:02.the possible deportation of Abu Qatada. He, of course, is the
:02:02. > :02:06.radical cleric once described by a judge as Osama bin Laden's right-
:02:06. > :02:09.hand man in Europe. And is now released from jail under a 22-hour
:02:09. > :02:12.curfew, while the government seeks assurances that evidence gained
:02:12. > :02:22.through torture would not be used in any trial against him if he were
:02:22. > :02:28.sent back to the Middle East. She has got to come back with something
:02:28. > :02:31.pretty significant from this trip. She has obviously gone up there
:02:32. > :02:35.with the purpose of finding a way to send Abu Qatada over there. She
:02:35. > :02:41.needs something to persuade the court that the Jordanian government
:02:41. > :02:49.is serious about giving him a fair trial. It is in everyone's interest
:02:49. > :02:54.here for her to do that. What would this be? Just having a verbal
:02:54. > :03:00.assurance from the Jordanians, we will not break the rules, it won't
:03:00. > :03:04.be that simple. It went but at the same time she will be well prepared,
:03:04. > :03:08.the Home Office lawyers will know what needs to be done to satisfy
:03:08. > :03:18.the judges. That will be private information in the discussions they
:03:18. > :03:18.
:03:18. > :03:24.have. To reserve make is incredibly serious, well briefed -- Theresa
:03:24. > :03:29.May. They will know the kind of things they need to do. Hopefully
:03:29. > :03:35.she will come back here and we can get the legal process going.
:03:35. > :03:41.will have to be swift. He is on strict bail conditions but in a few
:03:41. > :03:45.months he could be released. Exactly, it needs to happen quickly.
:03:45. > :03:48.It needs to be seen in the context of the British government's
:03:48. > :03:58.attitude to human rights legislation. There isn't an
:03:58. > :04:00.
:04:00. > :04:05.appetite to do anything dramatic, withdrawing from the EC AGR -- ECHR.
:04:05. > :04:12.In terms of this individual case, it needs to be quick. And it will
:04:12. > :04:15.be popular. Indeed. March 21st will see the Chancellor
:04:15. > :04:18.George Osborne stand at the despatch box, and deliver his much
:04:18. > :04:22.awaited Budget. There's been a lot of speculation over the weekend,
:04:22. > :04:25.over what Mr Osborne's got in store for us. And one particularly
:04:25. > :04:29.contentious issue is child benefits. Currently, the government plans to
:04:29. > :04:32.cut child benefit for parents who are higher rate tax payers. However,
:04:32. > :04:34.critics argue the move unfairly punishes middle income earners. And
:04:34. > :04:37.particularly affects those households where there is just one
:04:37. > :04:40.person earning over the tax threshold. There are rumours the
:04:40. > :04:46.Chancellor is planning to water down the plans by raising the
:04:46. > :04:53.amount people have to earn before they lose out. Speaking to the BBC
:04:53. > :04:57.earlier, Nick Clegg said they are prepared to look at the plans.
:04:57. > :05:01.We have said as a government, we are letting in difficult times, so
:05:01. > :05:07.to ask people who are earning more money to give up child benefit is
:05:07. > :05:16.fair. There is an issue about the cliff edge, one earning family who
:05:16. > :05:18.would not get child benefit under that scenario but another... George
:05:18. > :05:22.Osborne and the Prime Minister has said that is something we will look
:05:22. > :05:26.at. Also in the frame are changes to the tax credit system. Later
:05:26. > :05:29.today, Labour will lead a debate in the Commons calling for the plans
:05:29. > :05:32.to be reversed. The party argues that, from next month, working
:05:32. > :05:36.parents could lose thousands of pounds, because the new rules mean
:05:36. > :05:39.couples with children will have to work 24 hours between them, instead
:05:39. > :05:41.of 16 hours, to qualify for working tax credits. However, the
:05:41. > :05:45.government claims that, when the universal credit is introduced in
:05:45. > :05:52.October next year, this problem will be addressed.
:05:52. > :05:56.Let's talk now to James Brown from the Institute of Fiscal Studies.
:05:57. > :06:02.Thank you for joining us. Can you tell us who are going to be the
:06:02. > :06:08.losers in terms of child benefit? The policy as it stands is families
:06:09. > :06:13.where one parent is a higher-rate taxpayer paying 40p, will lose all
:06:13. > :06:19.their child benefit. Currently worth about �1,000 for the first
:06:19. > :06:24.child, �750 for each subsequent child. If you're looking again at
:06:24. > :06:28.tax credits, claims are being made changes might make it less
:06:28. > :06:33.worthwhile for parents going to work. What are the changes? They
:06:33. > :06:38.have been tapering this down. policy Labour is talking about
:06:39. > :06:43.today it is, from April this year, you will have to work 24 hours a
:06:43. > :06:48.week if you are a couple with children to claim working tax
:06:48. > :06:53.credit, conditional on the working is certain number of hours a week,
:06:53. > :06:59.then it is means tested. It means it becomes up less worthwhile to
:06:59. > :07:03.work between 16-24 hours a week. You need to work 24 hours to
:07:03. > :07:08.qualify. The government is saying the universal credit would mitigate
:07:08. > :07:15.that. A universal credit will replace the current means tested
:07:15. > :07:19.benefits and tax credits. That won't have any of these hours rules
:07:19. > :07:24.in it. It won't matter how many hours you work each week, just how
:07:24. > :07:28.much you earn. That won't come in for another couple of years. There
:07:28. > :07:32.will still be people on the current system right the way through to
:07:32. > :07:35.2018 because of the long drawn-out period. Joining me now is the
:07:35. > :07:40.Shadow Treasury Minister, Cathy Jamieson. And the Conservative,
:07:40. > :07:45.Nadim Zahawi. Should the government to drop their
:07:45. > :07:49.plan to withdraw child benefit from higher rate tax payers? Why should
:07:49. > :07:56.it be that someone on �20,000 a year should be subsidising child
:07:56. > :08:00.tax credit for someone earning �800,000 a year? Polling evidence
:08:00. > :08:04.shows people who are higher earners, are prepared to make sacrifices
:08:04. > :08:09.because we are going through austerity, we are left a Treasury
:08:09. > :08:14.without any money. The problem occurs is this anomaly. Wherever
:08:14. > :08:20.you look, you will have to deal with that in some way. There is
:08:20. > :08:25.lots of speculation, to increase the threshold up to �50,000. A
:08:25. > :08:31.couple both Worthing on �42,000 would get tax credit, is in full
:08:31. > :08:37.working household with �43,000 would lose it. But you are happy
:08:37. > :08:44.with the original policy as outlined? I think it is worth
:08:44. > :08:49.looking at, this cliff edge. We ought to look at it, if there is a
:08:49. > :08:56.way of fixing it. The problem with all these things, with a massive
:08:56. > :08:59.budget deficit, we came into office borrowing �500 million a day.
:08:59. > :09:03.your Conservative colleagues are not happy and there is a lot of
:09:03. > :09:08.pressure on the Chancellor. Are you disappointed the Chancellor looks
:09:08. > :09:14.as if he may bend to pressure from your colleagues? If we can deal
:09:14. > :09:19.with the anomaly. Not just to satisfy them? I think you will find
:09:19. > :09:26.most of my colleagues are in favour of people better off paying their
:09:26. > :09:31.share to get us out of the economic mess. But can you deal with this
:09:31. > :09:36.anomaly to mitigate it? It is quite rightly been looked at. Labour
:09:36. > :09:41.wants the benefit to stay. issue is the government has got
:09:41. > :09:47.itself into a mess, we have warned them. Our principal position is we
:09:47. > :09:52.do believe in the universal... Ian Ayres can still get child
:09:52. > :09:56.benefit? There are other ways of dealing with that. There is this
:09:56. > :10:00.cliff edge. I have heard speculation perhaps the threshold
:10:00. > :10:05.will be raised, perhaps they will take it away one's children reach
:10:05. > :10:10.the age of five but the government has not said. This is their mess.
:10:10. > :10:15.Their own backbenchers are deeply unhappy about the state of play.
:10:15. > :10:18.You have clarified you would like that benefit to stay. You would
:10:18. > :10:25.deal with some of the issues a sweat in the tax system. If the
:10:25. > :10:30.policy goes ahead, and the universal benefit is broken, will
:10:30. > :10:34.you reverse it when Labour comes to power? What we have said about all
:10:34. > :10:38.of the changes is we will have to see what the state of the economy
:10:38. > :10:44.is at that time. The real issue today we are having to face also,
:10:44. > :10:50.this is not just about hype earners, this government is cutting benefits
:10:50. > :10:55.for some of the lowest paid people. We will come to that. If it is a
:10:55. > :11:00.point of principle on child benefit, which is what some Tory MPs are
:11:00. > :11:07.arguing. They say it is not a family-friendly policy. Surely that
:11:07. > :11:11.is one area you can say, we will reverse it? We would want to keep
:11:11. > :11:16.the principle. But we are in a situation where we have to see what
:11:16. > :11:20.happens, how the economy will be at that time. I have heard the
:11:20. > :11:24.Conservatives talking about the deficit and borrowing, the
:11:24. > :11:29.government is borrowing more than we would have done. I would like to
:11:29. > :11:34.pick up a few points. You have witnessed why Labour's economic
:11:34. > :11:39.policy have no credibility. They say they want to deal with the
:11:39. > :11:44.deficit. They will absolutely support the Cup's we are making.
:11:44. > :11:52.But they are saying we are cutting too fast, too deep. We are spending
:11:52. > :11:57.more. If you look... We are borrowing more. If you look at
:11:57. > :12:04.Labour's own plans, they would have, this was decided by an independent
:12:04. > :12:08.report, borrowing �200 billion more. The issue at hand, it has been very
:12:08. > :12:14.contentious for your colleagues. They will be waiting to see what
:12:14. > :12:19.George Osborne actually says. If you tweak the system endlessly, do
:12:19. > :12:24.things which will keep people happy, it will be so complicated it won't
:12:24. > :12:30.work and make savings. That is a judgment for the Chancellor, let us
:12:30. > :12:36.see. The judgment has to be, you have to get the benefits from these
:12:36. > :12:41.savings, �2.5 billion a year, rising beyond that. Can you
:12:41. > :12:45.mitigate some of these issues, without losing the benefit of the
:12:46. > :12:51.cost cutting you need to deliver? And your Tory colleagues will have
:12:51. > :12:57.to be satisfied? It has to make the argument for it. Tax credits. You
:12:57. > :13:02.have claimed it would be worthwhile for a couple working 24 hours, they
:13:02. > :13:09.will be worse off than claiming benefits. But it will be mitigated
:13:09. > :13:13.by the universal credit? A I do not think the government has realised
:13:13. > :13:17.how serious this is for low-paid families. It is all very well to
:13:18. > :13:22.say the universal credit will fix this. In the interim, the lowest-
:13:22. > :13:27.paid families will seriously lose out. This is the government's
:13:27. > :13:33.figures this is based on. Working tax credits go to families,
:13:33. > :13:39.certainly before the coalition came in, people earning up to �50,000,
:13:39. > :13:47.it has come down. You're looking at how these cuts will impact on, a
:13:47. > :13:52.couple on the minimum wage with two children. Working 16 hours. If they
:13:52. > :13:57.cannot get the extra hours, they will lose all of their tax credits.
:13:57. > :14:03.It is due to come into place in April. They could stop it and a
:14:03. > :14:07.look at it again. Two issues seen as bold policies by
:14:07. > :14:12.the coalition government, on child benefit, do you think the
:14:12. > :14:18.Chancellor will be seen as weak if there is a U-turn? You have to see
:14:18. > :14:22.them together. Child benefit, go back to why the Chancellor made the
:14:22. > :14:28.announcement at the Conservative Party conference in 2010. It was a
:14:28. > :14:33.strategic choice, he doesn't do things by accident. He understands.
:14:33. > :14:41.The reason is they needed to make a case for cuts. They didn't come
:14:41. > :14:47.into government to do cuts but they needed to. They came in knowing
:14:47. > :14:50.they would have to make cuts, the emergency budget, that was clear,
:14:50. > :14:58.the Comprehensive Spending Review laid it out. Everyone needs to feel
:14:58. > :15:02.some pain. People in Labour say, they are all in it together. I
:15:02. > :15:07.genuinely think everybody needs to make a contribution to this
:15:07. > :15:11.tightening of our budget, which is why the decision was made. The
:15:11. > :15:18.Prime Minister himself has said there is an issue around this cliff
:15:18. > :15:21.edge. They probably are looking at ways of Amelia rating that. That
:15:21. > :15:24.doesn't take away from the fact they will be looking to make sure
:15:24. > :15:31.well be people are making a contribution to reducing the budget
:15:31. > :15:40.deficit. Look at the tax credits. If you look at the welfare state as
:15:40. > :15:43.a whole, there is less money going You have to make sure everybody is
:15:43. > :15:49.taking a piece of that and that is where you have to see these things
:15:49. > :15:56.together. OK, thank you both very much. One piece of news set the
:15:56. > :15:58.Westminster village a flutter last week. That was the departure of
:15:58. > :16:01.David Cameron's closest advisor, Steve Hilton, on a year-long
:16:01. > :16:05.sabbatical to the West Coast of California. Sounds lovely. So why
:16:05. > :16:07.did the career-break of a man who is not exactly a household name get
:16:07. > :16:10.everyone around here frantic with excitement? Well, it's because the
:16:10. > :16:12.inner circle of advisers are often just as powerful, if not more
:16:12. > :16:16.powerful, an influence on Government policy as a Cabinet
:16:16. > :16:26.Minister or even three. So we sent Giles out to lift the lid on who
:16:26. > :16:27.
:16:27. > :16:32.pulls the strings behind the scenes In terms of the political discourse
:16:32. > :16:38.of this country, you could be for given for thinking this House, this
:16:38. > :16:43.building, is one single human entity. You often hear, "The
:16:43. > :16:50.feeling from Number Ten is...: it is populated by a number of people
:16:50. > :16:53.working around the Prime Minister, but who are they? The Prime
:16:53. > :16:56.Minister's closest advisor has been Steve Hilton, conspicuous for his
:16:56. > :17:03.dress down attitude but perhaps fine if you shun the spotlight as
:17:03. > :17:05.he does. Not the hippy satire likes to make out. Alongside Rohan Silva,
:17:05. > :17:08.he's been focussed on pre election pretty much anything. Recently on
:17:08. > :17:14.policy implementation. He is the PM's blue sky thinker, and Big
:17:14. > :17:20.Society champion. What people say about him is that, for every
:17:20. > :17:23.brilliant idea he has, there's 10 which are not going to go anywhere.
:17:23. > :17:26.Now he's leaving for a year to go to California. His wife works for
:17:26. > :17:34.Google. On sabbatical. There maybe other reasons. Let me explain.
:17:34. > :17:37.Chief of Staff is Ed Llewellyn. He ran the leader's private office in
:17:37. > :17:40.opposition having worked on Cameron's leadership bid. He is
:17:40. > :17:43.very close to the PM, a friend and colleague. Alongside Kate Fall
:17:43. > :17:47.they're the very loyal Praetorian guard and all get on well. The big
:17:47. > :17:52.problem is that when things get very difficult, and you need
:17:52. > :17:55.advisers to genuinely speak truth to power, and it to say, hold on,
:17:55. > :18:00.there is a major problem here and we need to think again, sometimes
:18:00. > :18:06.it seems those people who work around them can't quite do that.
:18:06. > :18:10.But the critics say he isn't Chief of Staff. You need somebody in
:18:10. > :18:13.there, can salary figure who has the full authority of the PM, and
:18:13. > :18:18.when they pick up the phone to a minister, but minister is nervous,
:18:18. > :18:23.start shaking because they think this chief-of-staff has the
:18:23. > :18:27.authority of the Prime Minister, and the prime minister is not happy.
:18:27. > :18:30.In fact Number 10 does have a big beast. Top Civil Servent Jeremy
:18:30. > :18:34.Heywood. The Cabinet Secretary who's increasingly key to how
:18:34. > :18:43.Downing Street now works. He has the position and experience to make
:18:43. > :18:46.decisions himself. Indeed reported tensions with Hilton about how
:18:46. > :18:49.things get done may explain that sabbatical. Director of
:18:49. > :18:56.Communications Craig Oliver worked for ITN and the BBC, and came into
:18:56. > :18:59.Downing St after Andy Coulson was forced to resign. There were
:18:59. > :19:01.questions over his knowledge of the print media, but his planning is
:19:01. > :19:05.display here. These pictures seen around the world. His job's to
:19:05. > :19:08.control the messages coming from Number 10. Andrew Cooper is
:19:08. > :19:11.Director of Strategy. Seen here on our programme when he worked for
:19:11. > :19:15.Populus. He's the PM's pollster but also to bring home strategic and
:19:15. > :19:20.political home truths. Telling it how it is, and as a moderniser,
:19:20. > :19:23.trying to change traditional mindsets. Steven Gilbert's the PM's
:19:23. > :19:25.Political Secretary the man in charge of what George Osborne calls
:19:25. > :19:35."Ground War". He provides intelligence and campaigning
:19:35. > :19:35.
:19:35. > :19:38.insight. How to win hearts and minds on the doorstep. Co chairman
:19:38. > :19:42.of the Conservative Party Baroness Warsi may be visible in the media,
:19:42. > :19:44.but around the PM it's the other Co Chairman Lord Feldman who has the
:19:44. > :19:49.influence and access. Oliver Dowden is the PM's political advisor
:19:49. > :19:55.responsible for day to day fixing, briefing and managing any crises.
:19:55. > :19:58.He is Number 10's link to CCHQ and described as "quietly effective".
:19:58. > :20:02.Gabby Bertin, the PM's Press Secretary worked with him when he
:20:02. > :20:09.was a shadow minister and ever since. She is very close,
:20:09. > :20:15.influential. These are who The Prime Minister calls "the wiring".
:20:15. > :20:19.The unseen people that make the machine work. Of course two of the
:20:19. > :20:22.most crucial people of all live in the street but don't work in number
:20:22. > :20:25.10. Samantha Cameron does have political influence. The other, the
:20:25. > :20:28.Chancellor George Osborne may live next door but he's perhaps the
:20:28. > :20:31.lynch pin to how Number 10 operates today, possibly because he might
:20:31. > :20:34.like to move in one day. Giles reporting there in the first
:20:34. > :20:38.of a little series lifting the lid on the Westminster village. And
:20:38. > :20:41.with us now is Nick Pearce who used to be the Head of Policy at Number
:20:41. > :20:43.10 under Gordon Brown. And, I'm tempted to say, is now recovering
:20:43. > :20:47.from that experience as the director of the Institute of Public
:20:47. > :20:51.Policy Research. Welcome to the programme. And going to come to you
:20:51. > :20:55.first of all, James, because you know Steve Hilton. You worked with
:20:55. > :20:59.him. Do you think his departure is as significant as has been played
:20:59. > :21:04.out in the papers? Has the Government run out of steam?
:21:04. > :21:08.don't think so, chrome know. He is an unbelievably influential figure,
:21:09. > :21:11.no doubt about that. The driving force behind a lot of radical stuff
:21:11. > :21:16.which David Cameron did in government. I can totally
:21:16. > :21:20.understand why he has gone. He managed to stay in touch before and
:21:20. > :21:24.did a decent job in opposition when he was having that kind of
:21:24. > :21:29.arrangement, so I don't think it's significant at all. It's more about
:21:29. > :21:33.family than anything. Not a sense of frustration then? It's been
:21:33. > :21:43.talked about a lot but he was the big vision man and was being
:21:43. > :21:43.
:21:43. > :21:48.restrained by a Whitehall and the machinery. Well, I think Number Ten
:21:49. > :21:53.is all about frustration, in a wave. When we came from opposition, we
:21:53. > :21:57.were very tight-knit, big change going forward, a tight-knit group,
:21:57. > :22:00.a couple of dozen people could make the decisions you wanted to, but in
:22:00. > :22:04.government, it doesn't happen like that because you are responsible
:22:04. > :22:11.for things. There is a sense it always goes slightly slower than
:22:11. > :22:13.you would want, so there is always frustration. Steve was always
:22:13. > :22:19.challenging you to go further so that was built into his DNA. I
:22:19. > :22:23.don't think that anything particular about it. Is that what
:22:23. > :22:27.happens? You do get a sense, Tony Blair used to complain that just
:22:27. > :22:33.because he was prime minister, he could not wave a magic wand and
:22:33. > :22:38.things happen in an instant. Is there a deeper problem? It's
:22:38. > :22:42.certainly true that when you're in Number Ten you after worker cabinet
:22:42. > :22:45.ministers, the Treasury, you can't just do things yourselves. I've
:22:45. > :22:49.worked in departments and you can often do more because you're
:22:49. > :22:55.directly in charge. At Number Ten, you have to negotiate more than you
:22:55. > :22:58.would have to expect. I think the Government has a problem with
:22:58. > :23:04.strategic direction. A lot of the initial impulse for the coalition
:23:04. > :23:08.was defined against Labour's legacy, the first wave of legislation, it's
:23:09. > :23:13.not obvious where the new ideas are coming from, particularly on the
:23:13. > :23:19.conservative side, actually. The Government as a challenge with the
:23:19. > :23:24.spending review, with an agenda which can look directionless.
:23:24. > :23:31.small team came across but a bigger team under Gordon Brown. Do you
:23:31. > :23:37.need a bigger team? Cannot be harder to get your policies
:23:37. > :23:42.through? There was a mistake made when David Cameron came in that he
:23:42. > :23:45.got rid of the large department. People with policy expertise but
:23:45. > :23:52.politically appointed. They would have spotted the health bill coming
:23:52. > :23:57.through, I think. It was an effective organisation which could
:23:57. > :24:02.have done long-term thinking. it's just too stretched, with a
:24:02. > :24:05.bigger unit you would have foreseen problems, big problems, like the
:24:05. > :24:10.health bill which wouldn't have made it as far down the line as
:24:10. > :24:15.they have under this coalition government. As a representative of
:24:15. > :24:20.Uley of special advisers, obviously, if we should have more of them. I
:24:20. > :24:24.think it is true that we came in with fewer policies special
:24:24. > :24:27.advisers than we need it. In government, obviously, there are
:24:27. > :24:33.lots of capable people but you need somebody on the same political
:24:33. > :24:38.mission as you. That actually is what creates the drive and dynamism.
:24:38. > :24:42.I think there is a question about whether there are numbers of people
:24:43. > :24:47.in there who can help push the agenda we want to see. Do you have
:24:47. > :24:50.the same fear that, without somebody like Steve Hilton, who was
:24:51. > :24:55.agitating on a daily basis, who had a vision for Parliament, but that
:24:55. > :25:00.is just going to go and it will come down to 24 hour news, the
:25:00. > :25:04.short term gains which are needed and the vision goes? No, I don't
:25:04. > :25:10.think that's true. The Conservative Party came in with a broad
:25:10. > :25:13.manifesto which we have implemented. There have been a lot of your terms
:25:13. > :25:19.and child benefit could be another one of those. They have been some
:25:19. > :25:25.new terms, but the general direction of policy is as we
:25:25. > :25:29.intended it. They happen under all governments, not least Gordon Brown.
:25:29. > :25:33.When you make mistakes you want to go back on them. A government is
:25:33. > :25:37.successful when they have a clear strategic direction, with will
:25:37. > :25:45.momentum behind your reforms. The Government doing well politically
:25:45. > :25:48.on education. The they have moved fast, haven't they? Nobody would
:25:48. > :25:52.contest the fact Michael Gove knows where he is going and is going
:25:52. > :25:58.forward with that agenda. The Government can't say that about
:25:58. > :26:03.many things. And actually, on Steve Hilton, there's no point in being
:26:03. > :26:08.bold and radical if your ideas are stupid. You should have a purpose.
:26:08. > :26:13.You get that when you know where the long term is going to take you.
:26:13. > :26:19.That's what Tony Blair had at its best. Gordon Brown knew what he
:26:19. > :26:26.wanted to do with the economy. Less in other areas like public services.
:26:26. > :26:31.Well, you mentioned Michael Gove as a big success story. If you look
:26:31. > :26:37.across welfare, the police commissioner, complete innovation
:26:37. > :26:43.will transform the way we think about policing. Prison reforms. But
:26:43. > :26:47.then this going back to prison. Even health, where the Government
:26:47. > :26:51.has run into trouble, giving patients choice, ideas started
:26:51. > :26:56.under Tony Blair, in many ways, developing those, it's still there.
:26:56. > :27:00.I think there is that agenda. It's a clear idea. It owes a lot to Tony
:27:00. > :27:04.Blair, in a funny sort of way, but a lot can be developed. I don't
:27:05. > :27:10.think they will lack ideas. This is a coalition government which makes
:27:10. > :27:14.it more difficult. People in departments are due, they have got
:27:14. > :27:18.a coalition government to do with as well. I agree with that. It's a
:27:19. > :27:26.major difference. Labour was an internal coalition. Yes, people
:27:26. > :27:29.would argue that for the there were plenty of factions around.
:27:29. > :27:35.George Osborne is right next to David Cameron, and that's different
:27:35. > :27:38.from any moment in the Labour years. Because they work better together?
:27:38. > :27:42.Politically they are joined at the hip and that's a huge difference.
:27:42. > :27:47.If the Treasury and Number Ten are close together, it makes a massive
:27:47. > :27:53.difference also if you have problems between them, it's a
:27:53. > :28:00.problem. In your package, you mentioned Jeremy Heywood, a very
:28:00. > :28:05.powerful figure, a remarkable man. People say about him, he has
:28:05. > :28:11.blocked reform. And Steve Hilton was a frustrated with him. Jeremy
:28:11. > :28:15.Heywood is the last person to block reform for the peas a radical
:28:15. > :28:21.character. Sometimes saying no is the right thing, standing up to
:28:21. > :28:24.somebody. Exactly. OK, thank you both very much. Well, spring is
:28:24. > :28:29.finally here so we'll be going outside to speak to our top
:28:29. > :28:33.political pundits. I think it's delivered cold, actually. But first,
:28:33. > :28:35.let's take a look at what's on the radar over the next few days. Home
:28:35. > :28:38.Secretary Theresa May is currently in Jordan to negotiate the
:28:38. > :28:40.deportation of the Abu Qatada. The government is seeking assurances
:28:40. > :28:43.that evidence obtained through torture will not be used in any
:28:43. > :28:46.trial against the radical cleric. The legal aid, sentencing and
:28:46. > :28:48.punishment of offenders bill is before the Lords today, campaigners
:28:48. > :28:52.have expressed fears that the changes will affect the most
:28:52. > :28:54.vulnerable in our society. The health bill will be once again in
:28:54. > :28:57.the spotlight as there are more amendments being debated in the
:28:58. > :29:05.Lords tomorrow. This time on competition. All eyes will once
:29:05. > :29:08.again be on how the Liberal Democrat Peers will vote. And no
:29:08. > :29:10.doubt the bill will be one topic discussed at the Liberal Democrat
:29:10. > :29:13.spring conference that starts on Friday. The party leadership will
:29:13. > :29:16.be nervously gauging the mood of activists who are said to be
:29:16. > :29:18.unhappy with a number of key coalition policies. Well, joining
:29:18. > :29:28.me from outside Parliament now is the Guardian's Polly Toynbee. And
:29:28. > :29:35.
:29:35. > :29:41.The row over legal aid, will it be successful? There have been a
:29:41. > :29:46.number of changes introduced. But broadly, this is about Ken Clarke
:29:46. > :29:52.trying to find savings. Listening to him this morning, he was pretty
:29:52. > :29:56.robust. On the whole, the entire legal profession is starting to
:29:56. > :30:03.stack up against it. There are many of their representatives in the
:30:03. > :30:09.House of Lords, it will be a bitter fight. So are some politicians on
:30:09. > :30:14.the conservative side? Both houses are packed with lawyers, they
:30:14. > :30:21.really understand what this means. Ken Clarke is being robust about
:30:21. > :30:27.how overpaid lawyers are. But, not legal aid lawyers, who work in law
:30:27. > :30:32.centres, mostly on salaries, low salaries, who do it because they
:30:32. > :30:37.believe in it as a social service, not because they will make fortunes.
:30:37. > :30:41.Also, a question about domestic violence. Baroness Scotland is
:30:42. > :30:46.moving an amendment on this. Women who suffered domestic violence will
:30:46. > :30:50.find it very difficult to get legal aid. These sort of level of proof
:30:50. > :30:55.they will have to provide, to show they have suffered violence before
:30:55. > :31:04.they can get to see a lawyer will be very high. There will be a lot
:31:04. > :31:09.of anger about that. It points to a wider problem facing the coalition.
:31:09. > :31:14.The government partners are being attacked by their own sides, be it
:31:14. > :31:20.in the House of Commons with the Tories of child benefit. Is that
:31:20. > :31:30.becoming a pattern? It is, rather. There is a strong court at the
:31:30. > :31:34.centre of the coalition -- core. But if you look at history, the way
:31:34. > :31:40.coalition's normally come apart is not because the centre falls apart
:31:40. > :31:44.but because grass roots starts to distrust their leadership. What we
:31:44. > :31:49.are seeing on both sides is MPs attacking their own leadership with
:31:49. > :31:56.increasing vigour. We will see more of this at the spring conference
:31:56. > :32:03.this weekend. It would be wrong to dismiss some of the complains as
:32:03. > :32:08.irrelevant. Eventually, there will come a tipping point. Where they
:32:08. > :32:16.become so strong, the ability of the centre to stay part of the
:32:16. > :32:20.coalition will become jeopardised. In some of the things like child
:32:20. > :32:30.benefit, they may bend when it comes to the Budget. Looking at
:32:30. > :32:35.health, the bill, it probably is going to happen so in the end
:32:35. > :32:40.central government will get its way. It looks as if Shirley Williams,
:32:40. > :32:45.the leader of the revolt in the House of Lords, yet again, folded.
:32:45. > :32:50.And as if the Liberal Democrats, they have got some changes but not
:32:50. > :32:57.the important ones. The big debate is about the competition question,
:32:58. > :33:02.whether the -- the NHS will be opened up to any private provider.
:33:02. > :33:08.That seems to have survived intact. Some in the Liberal Democrat
:33:08. > :33:10.conference will be upset about it. But basically, most people seem to
:33:10. > :33:15.be the government will get their bill, just as they got their
:33:15. > :33:20.welfare bill despite a bit of protest, and even the legal aid
:33:20. > :33:24.bill. Although that causes less public outrage because people don't
:33:24. > :33:34.understand it that much, it will cause more trouble in both houses
:33:34. > :33:34.
:33:34. > :33:39.because of the Shia number of lawyers. -- sheer. Is Labour
:33:39. > :33:42.becoming a one-trick pony on health? Labour feels they are
:33:42. > :33:48.laying their cards on the table. Most people will not notice what
:33:48. > :33:54.will happen in the health service for another 18 months, dangerously
:33:54. > :34:00.close to the next election. The cuts will kick in. People's minds
:34:00. > :34:04.will see this. People will see waiting-lists soaring, local
:34:04. > :34:10.hospital unit closing, and Labour will feel that is when people will
:34:10. > :34:14.turn up to them. The For the rest of the programme,
:34:14. > :34:18.we're joined by our Monday panel of MPs. For Labour, John Woodcock. For
:34:19. > :34:25.the Conservatives, Alun Cairns. And for the Lib Dems, Duncan Hames.
:34:25. > :34:30.Letter has picked up on health. We have talked about it so many times.
:34:30. > :34:37.-- let us pick up. The damaging bits are particularly on
:34:37. > :34:43.competition. For let me correct her, she was talking about the cuts in
:34:43. > :34:47.health digging in, in 18 months. There are no cuts in health. There
:34:47. > :34:55.are savings but that is being reinvested into frontline services.
:34:55. > :35:02.There's only one part in the UK in Wales where health is being cut. By
:35:02. > :35:08.Labour. So that is a bit rich. is your message to Liberal
:35:08. > :35:12.Democrats, is it time to shut up? think so, there have been
:35:12. > :35:17.significant concessions. The Health Bill is bringing about exciting
:35:17. > :35:22.reforms, new innovations. In 18 months, the proof will be in the
:35:22. > :35:27.eating of the pudding when we will be able to show these are the
:35:27. > :35:31.changes, improvements. We can always compare with what is going
:35:31. > :35:38.wrong in Wales with the way Labour is running it there. Is it time
:35:38. > :35:43.they shut up, Liberal Democrat Lords, it needs to get onto the
:35:43. > :35:47.statute book? I thought Polly Toynbee was rather rude about
:35:47. > :35:51.Shirley Williams, she has been very good at getting concessions to the
:35:51. > :35:57.bill. If you are working to make something better, when you are
:35:57. > :36:03.successful, you need to lock that into the legislation. There is
:36:03. > :36:09.still work being done on the health bill. One of my colleagues has been
:36:09. > :36:16.working on the competition elements, making sure competition is the
:36:16. > :36:19.servant of patience and not the master -- patients. There is a
:36:19. > :36:25.constructive approach being taken to make sure we have a better bill
:36:25. > :36:29.at the end. It is time for Labour to come along. They are still
:36:29. > :36:35.opposed to the bill in essence, saying it should be scrapped.
:36:35. > :36:40.Absolutely. Duncan as the test ultimately for the Lib Dems will be
:36:40. > :36:49.whether they are prepared to stick with us and boat this bill down, as
:36:49. > :36:54.a party, and not... We are clear this Bill is fundamentally flawed.
:36:54. > :37:00.But where exactly? You are in favour of GP commissioning, reforms
:37:00. > :37:05.to the health service. There was already competition in the NHS.
:37:05. > :37:10.real disaster of this Bill is you have actually wasted nearly two
:37:10. > :37:15.years on something which not only do an increasing number of
:37:15. > :37:19.professionals sake is and necessary, but actually, importantly, the real
:37:19. > :37:25.reformers of the NHS under the last Labour government, the likes of
:37:25. > :37:30.John Hutton, Alan Milburn, are saying this Bill is not necessary,
:37:30. > :37:35.and it as to a level of bureaucracy and complexity, when we do need
:37:35. > :37:38.real and sustained reforms to match the challenges in the NHS. But some
:37:38. > :37:46.of those Labour lords have been working with us to get those
:37:46. > :37:53.amendments, they clearly think they are worthwhile. To have an attitude
:37:53. > :38:00.to say the Bill should fall whatever... Are you happy that
:38:01. > :38:06.almost every Royal College, broadly, that they will not be on board, and
:38:06. > :38:10.it would still be able to sell it to patients and your constituency?
:38:10. > :38:15.Some of the Royal Colleges, a small proportion of their members will
:38:15. > :38:20.have voted to express opposition. We need to take the totality. If
:38:20. > :38:27.there was absolute anger, I would have imagined it greater proportion
:38:27. > :38:32.of members of those colleges would have insisted on changes. Are you
:38:32. > :38:37.happy you are going ahead with is built, but basically without their
:38:37. > :38:42.support? This bill has changed so much over time, it is hard to keep
:38:42. > :38:51.up with that. I dare say some of the people concentrating on looking
:38:51. > :38:55.after patients rather than politics are there. Many things people have
:38:55. > :39:00.been worried about, have been addressed. 1000 amendments have
:39:00. > :39:06.been made. People will be relieved a lot of the stories they have been
:39:06. > :39:11.hearing did not actually happen. Can I come on to legal aid. We may
:39:11. > :39:18.be talking to Ken Clarke in the programme. Strong words from Labour
:39:18. > :39:22.on this. Devastating consequences, some have said. What is the big
:39:22. > :39:28.scare about? I don't always agree with Polly Toynbee but on this
:39:28. > :39:32.occasion, she is absolutely right, particularly when she picks up on
:39:32. > :39:38.the consequences in terms of victims of domestic abuse. There
:39:38. > :39:43.seemed to be concessions this week, but not on the area of the evidence
:39:43. > :39:48.which would be eligible for legal aid, in terms of victims of
:39:48. > :39:54.domestic violence. This fundamentally is not right.
:39:54. > :40:00.Conservatives in the old days, people used to say, they're unfair
:40:00. > :40:04.but a least they are fairly efficient. But here, they are both.
:40:04. > :40:10.They jumped at proposals to reform the delayed which would have
:40:10. > :40:15.generated substantial savings, but denying legal aid to many thousands
:40:15. > :40:22.of people who will need it. If it would be the poorest who would be
:40:22. > :40:26.affected. Legal aid is to assist those who need it. The legal aid
:40:26. > :40:36.bill costs up to �39 per head per person across the UK. In France,
:40:36. > :40:39.
:40:39. > :40:44.Spain, it is about �6 per head. It is about 23% of the department's
:40:44. > :40:50.budget. If you compare that with where it started, it has grown
:40:50. > :40:55.exponentially. In these times of austerity it needs to be cut. Let
:40:55. > :41:00.us not forget, a lot of this legal- aid money goes to law is, many
:41:00. > :41:04.earning significant sums of money, and we can't justify that. Can't
:41:04. > :41:10.you do something about that without reducing the legal-aid budget?
:41:10. > :41:14.think we are. I think these are sensible measures. I have had an
:41:14. > :41:22.issue and raised this with the minister, around domestic violence.
:41:22. > :41:25.The definitions over that. The Law Society and other groups have come
:41:25. > :41:31.up with different figures, and say the Ministry of Justice figures, a
:41:31. > :41:36.third of the entire legal aid budget, �700 million, is spent on
:41:36. > :41:40.the most serious criminal cases, not civil legal-aid cases Ken
:41:40. > :41:44.Clarke is talking about. You still can't get away from the scale of
:41:44. > :41:50.differences between the legal-aid bill in the UK which is much bigger
:41:50. > :41:54.than any other nation in Europe. Even a former Commonwealth nations.
:41:54. > :41:59.We are spending a lot more on employers here than other nations.
:41:59. > :42:05.It's not the most efficient way of solving problems.
:42:05. > :42:12.We can now talk to the shadow justice minister. We have been
:42:12. > :42:17.talking about this issue of costs. �2 billion is an awful lot of money
:42:18. > :42:22.and needs to be cut. Am not sure it is much greater than anywhere else
:42:23. > :42:29.in the world, to be honest. It does need to be cut back. We, in
:42:29. > :42:34.government, started cutting it back. What we wouldn't have done is what
:42:34. > :42:39.the government has chosen to do, to attack a small part of legal-aid,
:42:39. > :42:45.social welfare law, which is a law which protects very poor, very
:42:45. > :42:48.vulnerable, often disabled people, from getting their rights. In the
:42:48. > :42:55.field of housing, employment, welfare benefits. All of that
:42:55. > :43:00.advice, largely advice, is a to be taken away from them, so they will
:43:00. > :43:04.not have that access to justice, which they have enjoyed under
:43:04. > :43:08.governments of all colours and the support of all political parties.
:43:08. > :43:15.There is a view that legal aid has mushroomed way beyond what it was
:43:15. > :43:20.intended to deal with. Criminal legal aid tips up �1.2 billion of
:43:20. > :43:25.the �2.1 billion that you mentioned. In the last few years, it has
:43:25. > :43:30.always been an emphasis on criminal legal aid where clearly there are
:43:30. > :43:37.more cuts which can be made. 14% of criminal legal aid is spent on 1%
:43:37. > :43:43.of cases. To attack social welfare law and take away 53% of social
:43:43. > :43:47.welfare law spend is outrageous. Thank you very much for joining us.
:43:47. > :43:53.We can now speak to Ken Clarke, thank you for coming on to the
:43:53. > :43:57.programme. You will have heard the final comments, and this idea that
:43:57. > :44:01.you are hitting the civil legal-aid budget disproportion late and will
:44:01. > :44:06.harmed the poorest who need that money?
:44:06. > :44:10.He has obviously not been talking to come of Goya's, and affected by
:44:10. > :44:15.lobbying by the Law Society. Criminal legal-aid is the heart of
:44:15. > :44:20.the system. If you are going to punish people as everyone wants to
:44:20. > :44:24.do for a serious crime, you have to make sure you have the right guilty
:44:24. > :44:28.person you're punishing. Also, that anything that can be said by
:44:28. > :44:34.someone articulate on his behalf is said before he is sentenced. That
:44:34. > :44:37.is why most of it goes on legal-aid, because we have a very good system
:44:37. > :44:47.where it is proved beyond reasonable doubt after being tested
:44:47. > :44:47.
:44:47. > :44:52.by a lawyer, we can deal with someone as a canal. -- as a
:44:52. > :45:02.criminal. On welfare law, employment law, we give a lot of
:45:02. > :45:06.legal aid where legal advice is not what is required. Citizens Advice
:45:06. > :45:11.Bureaux or solicitors can be used. I do not charge legal aid, it is
:45:11. > :45:21.not legal, the advice you give, it is sorting out the social-security
:45:21. > :45:24.
:45:24. > :45:27.system. It does not lead -- need No one will mind if you reduce the
:45:27. > :45:32.amount of money lawyers will make from this, but they are worried
:45:32. > :45:35.about victims who will lose out. The victims of domestic violence,
:45:35. > :45:44.for example. How will you ensure that people like that are still
:45:44. > :45:47.going to access? Many of my best friends are lawyers. They are not
:45:47. > :45:53.arguing about victims, but they are worried about the amount of money
:45:53. > :45:56.which goes to lawyers. The savings we are going to make are at the
:45:56. > :45:59.expense of the lawyers getting legal aid, and a lot of the costs
:45:59. > :46:03.are not just in my Budget but the National Health Service is paying
:46:03. > :46:10.out very large sums of money to lawyers, expert witnesses, claims
:46:10. > :46:13.managers, as well as compensation. The compensation culture and the
:46:14. > :46:18.ambulance-chasing practices make a lot of money, and it all comes out
:46:19. > :46:28.of the NHS budget. It should be spent on patient care, and that's
:46:29. > :46:29.
:46:29. > :46:35.why we are making savings. It's not just lawyers opposed to this. Peers
:46:35. > :46:40.across the House of Lords, including Tory peers, are also
:46:40. > :46:45.seeking this, thinking, this is a great idea, why isn't everybody on
:46:45. > :46:50.board? It's going to a Greek parliament phase at the moment. I
:46:50. > :46:53.have many friends and House of Lords. Every lobby seems to have a
:46:53. > :47:00.triumph there at the moment, are doing that �25,000 is not enough
:47:00. > :47:03.for large families on benefits, or listening to clinical trade unions
:47:03. > :47:13.on health reform and now the Law Society appears to have descended
:47:13. > :47:14.
:47:14. > :47:19.upon them. Yes. We are giving legal aid in domestic violence. Of course
:47:19. > :47:25.we are giving legal aid for that. It is disingenuous this argument
:47:25. > :47:32.about domestic violence. We're talking about people with a history
:47:32. > :47:41.of domestic violence. But property, children, you don't need legal aid
:47:41. > :47:45.were it not relevant to the domestic violence. What about
:47:45. > :47:52.coalition partners? Have you managed to convince them? I keep
:47:52. > :47:56.meeting Lib Dem peer has, and we got it through the House of Commons
:47:56. > :48:01.making several changes. Since I first consulted on this package,
:48:01. > :48:05.many, many months ago, we have moved and the House of Lords will
:48:05. > :48:09.still listen to some of the points which are left on different subject,
:48:09. > :48:14.but these big claims that somehow vulnerable people are going to be
:48:14. > :48:20.injured if you don't have so many lawyers involved in various types
:48:20. > :48:24.of less important litigation, I'm afraid have to be resisted. No
:48:24. > :48:31.other democracy in the world would think this was remotely sensible
:48:31. > :48:35.for the taxpayer to pay for so much litigation. Theresa May is in
:48:35. > :48:38.Jordan trying to get some sort of deal on Abu Qatada. We've just had
:48:38. > :48:44.this statement come through saying the Jordanian government will
:48:44. > :48:47.continue to work with the Government here and talks today
:48:47. > :48:52.have been positive but we have more work to do. It doesn't sound like
:48:52. > :48:59.much progress was made. Were you hoping for something more concrete?
:48:59. > :49:04.Of course she may get the assurances she is seeking. When he
:49:04. > :49:08.goes to trial, the evidence against him must not be obtained by torture
:49:08. > :49:14.which is an important human rights principles. I'm sure Theresa May
:49:14. > :49:24.will be pressing them on that and get incredible assurances. She's
:49:24. > :49:26.
:49:26. > :49:32.already got Strasbourg to agree. This last point will happen in this
:49:32. > :49:37.trial when it happens. It will be disappointing if he does not get
:49:37. > :49:42.deported. It will be disappointing if the Jordanians won't agree that
:49:42. > :49:48.they will not use evidence obtained by torture. The British have always
:49:48. > :49:52.been against torture. In criminal justice or any other way. It's an
:49:52. > :49:58.essential principle. No British court would deport anybody who was
:49:58. > :50:01.going to be tortured. The obvious outcome which Theresa May is
:50:01. > :50:08.working hard to achieve his for the Jordanians to give credible
:50:08. > :50:14.assurances. What would that have to look like? I'm not negotiating it.
:50:15. > :50:19.I will leave that to Theresa May. You are there just a secretary.
:50:19. > :50:25.Credible means a lawyer in Strasbourg or the UK with some
:50:25. > :50:29.experience of human rights actually believes the assurances given. The
:50:29. > :50:36.court in Strasbourg believes the assurances were given that Abu
:50:36. > :50:40.Qatada was not going to be tortured, assurances as good as that will
:50:40. > :50:44.suffice and the Jordanians I hope will be persuaded to give more
:50:44. > :50:47.assurances. Ken Clarke, thank you very much.
:50:47. > :50:50.There's a new book out today called the Alternative View. And subtitled
:50:50. > :50:53.- The Way Back For The Liberal Democrats. It says that Nick Clegg
:50:53. > :50:56.should stay on as Deputy Prime Minister. But stand aside as Party
:50:56. > :51:01.Leader in order to let someone else rebuild the party's electoral
:51:01. > :51:05.fortunes. It even goes as far as to hint that the best thing all round
:51:05. > :51:09.for the party is for Mr Clegg to go off and be a European Commissioner
:51:09. > :51:15.before the next election. Well, that book is written by the former
:51:15. > :51:20.Lib Dem MP Lembit Opik who joins us now. Do you think that's going to
:51:20. > :51:23.happen? I hope so because we went into writing this book to work out
:51:24. > :51:28.why we had a catastrophic performance in local elections and
:51:28. > :51:32.by-elections since 2010. The conclusion surprised even as, but
:51:32. > :51:36.by splitting the roles, we find a solution where Nick Clegg can
:51:36. > :51:42.fulfil his promise to carry out his five-year term as Deputy Prime
:51:42. > :51:45.Minister, but the party can rebuild. But no one will understand a deputy
:51:45. > :51:50.prime minister couldn't be anyone other than the leader of the party.
:51:50. > :51:57.Surely that's how it works, isn't it? Once they have read the book,
:51:57. > :52:00.they will understand it for the how does that work?
:52:00. > :52:07.Nobody could understand the idea of the Lib Dems being in coalition
:52:07. > :52:13.with the Tories. There's no constitutional reason for that.
:52:13. > :52:17.None whatsoever why he could not split that rope, and unless we do,
:52:17. > :52:20.we have a problem that the Tories don't seem to have. The it seems
:52:20. > :52:25.far-fetched and may look good on paper, but in the practical world
:52:25. > :52:30.of politics, it's just not going to happen for the Nick Clegg says I
:52:30. > :52:34.would like to hand over the leadership for a leadership
:52:34. > :52:38.election in 2013. And he will carry on as deputy prime minister. This
:52:38. > :52:41.is not a new idea but fundamentally, if this does not happen, our
:52:41. > :52:46.analysis suggests Nick Clegg leading the party into the next
:52:46. > :52:49.general election would be detrimental. If you want to be a
:52:49. > :52:54.collectivist, and on what he has promised to do for the coalition,
:52:55. > :53:01.this solution is the only way to move forward. It's an elegant
:53:01. > :53:05.solution and you should expect Nick Clegg to stand down? Listening to
:53:05. > :53:13.this alternative view, it's more successful than his alternative
:53:13. > :53:18.comedy. The bouquet, let Duncan respond. I want to see Nick Clegg
:53:19. > :53:25.leading the party into the next election and they don't want to see,
:53:25. > :53:28.however great this edition is,... Yes, but what do so that the
:53:28. > :53:34.disasters polling results? Could something as radical as this change
:53:34. > :53:36.the fortunes for the Lib Dems? Dem policy needs to be implemented
:53:36. > :53:41.by the coalition government, cutting taxes for ordinary working
:53:41. > :53:50.people, more money into schools, children being taken from the
:53:50. > :53:54.poorest families, rebalancing the economy, these are difficult pieces
:53:54. > :53:56.of working government, but at the end of this term, if we can show
:53:56. > :54:00.for the first time in generations the Lib Dems have done things to
:54:00. > :54:04.make life fairer as a result of being in government, I think Nick
:54:04. > :54:08.Clegg is a record will be one we want to take to the voters at the
:54:08. > :54:12.election. With my solution you can carry on working in the coalition,
:54:12. > :54:17.but, at the same time, differentiate the nature of the Lib
:54:17. > :54:22.Dem movement from its apparent merging with the Tory party. The
:54:22. > :54:26.Tories don't have this problem. We clearly do. We can rebuild
:54:26. > :54:35.community politics, which is a big problem for us at the moment, and
:54:35. > :54:39.move away from the Orange Book malaise. Nick Clegg is more popular
:54:39. > :54:46.than the part disordered understand this logic. The difficulty with the
:54:46. > :54:52.theory is you would have a divided party, for example, a more left-
:54:52. > :54:55.leaning Lib Dem party leader, for example Simon Hughes, and Nick
:54:56. > :55:00.Clegg as a deputy prime minister, and the party would split. There
:55:00. > :55:04.will be tension between the Lib Democrats and the Tory government,
:55:04. > :55:08.or the Lib Dem leader and the Liberal Democrat deputy prime
:55:08. > :55:13.minister. One of those will happen but it's my judgment we can live
:55:13. > :55:17.comfortably with either. Quite simply, if we don't do this, the
:55:17. > :55:23.Lib Dems will be consigned to a disastrous general election. This
:55:23. > :55:27.is not an anti- Nick Clegg proposal. He may not see it that way. It's
:55:27. > :55:30.uncomfortable reading but we are suggesting the only way Nick Clegg
:55:30. > :55:34.can fulfil his promise to the country and the coalition partners,
:55:34. > :55:37.and my colleagues in Parliament can do that, without destroying the Lib
:55:37. > :55:47.Dems are the same time is by splitting the roles. It may seem
:55:47. > :55:48.
:55:48. > :55:58.radical. I'm trying to see it there is a definite suggestion. Cometh
:55:58. > :56:00.
:56:00. > :56:05.the hour, cometh the Lembit Opik. Me? Rumours of my aspirations there
:56:05. > :56:11.are wilfully exaggerated. Would Labour be happy with him as did the
:56:12. > :56:16.Prime Minister? The problem for the Lib Dems, clearly in Nick Clegg is
:56:16. > :56:20.a discredited but the problem for the Lib Dems, as I think you will
:56:20. > :56:28.see at your conference at the weekend, they are finished as a
:56:28. > :56:35.progressive party. So you agree with Lembit Opik? The Labour Party
:56:36. > :56:41.Of as a solution, for the Lib Dems, is it an idea which could be
:56:41. > :56:45.discussed and debated at higher levels? I can't see how they can
:56:45. > :56:50.hold it together without having their lead at the top but, frankly,
:56:50. > :56:57.I don't understand how the Lib Dems are continuing to prop up what is
:56:57. > :57:01.one of the most volatile Tory governments in history. Would you
:57:01. > :57:08.be happy to negotiate more Simon Hughes at the top of a rather than
:57:08. > :57:13.someone like Nick Clegg? I want to see a majority Labour government.
:57:13. > :57:17.Once you read my book, it will pin you down. You're in the coalition
:57:17. > :57:21.with the Lib Dems and a lot of work is being done now which says, in
:57:21. > :57:25.order for the Tories to get a majority, they will have to target
:57:25. > :57:29.Liberal Democrat seats. That's quite obvious. The deal is that
:57:29. > :57:37.this coalition will last for the full five-year term, that the
:57:37. > :57:41.arrangements. There's lots of work being done obviously at
:57:41. > :57:43.constituency level and leadership level to seek to deliver a
:57:43. > :57:48.Conservative majority of the next election and that's when we can
:57:48. > :57:55.generally be radical rather than being limited by the negotiations.
:57:55. > :58:02.But your seat could go? Your party is upset, you wallow in the polls.
:58:02. > :58:06.One might argue something radical is what you need. They may try to
:58:06. > :58:09.take my seat in Will Show. If the first time in over 80 years the Lib
:58:09. > :58:14.Dems won the seat, but they will have to try harder because only
:58:14. > :58:20.last Thursday, the Lib Dems polled over 56% of the vote in my
:58:20. > :58:25.constituency, so they have got their work cut out. Boundaries will
:58:25. > :58:29.have changed by the next general election. The point being, when we
:58:29. > :58:32.talk about specific seats, they are likely to be different to the ones
:58:33. > :58:36.which are there now. Therefore, the current strength of any existing
:58:36. > :58:41.member parliament might have through his incumbency will have
:58:41. > :58:47.gone and it's fair game for everyone. I'm sure copies of the
:58:47. > :58:50.book Lembit Opik will give you. A signed copy. Thank you for all of
:58:50. > :58:53.you today. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The One