:00:39. > :00:43.Afternoon folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. There is more
:00:43. > :00:46.pressure on Syria today, 200 aid and Human Rights Groups have called
:00:46. > :00:52.on rish and China to support attempts by the United Nations to
:00:52. > :00:57.end the violence in the country. The move marks one year since the
:00:57. > :01:02.first protests against President Assad's regime Has the line been
:01:02. > :01:05.crossed on police reform? An independent review calls for
:01:05. > :01:09.performance related pay. Koonsultaition on gay marriage
:01:09. > :01:13.begins today with the Government planning to introduce legislation
:01:13. > :01:17.before the next general election. We will get reaction. And that is
:01:17. > :01:25.one for the family album. Cameron and Obama are enjoying their photo
:01:25. > :01:29.opportunities, but do they make any difference? All that coming up in
:01:29. > :01:33.the next hour. With us the Green Party's Caroline Lucas. Welcome
:01:33. > :01:39.back to the Daily Politics ch first this morning let us start with
:01:39. > :01:45.Syria. Out of the headlines these days. Today's guardian has
:01:45. > :01:51.published secret e-mails received and sent by the Syrian President,
:01:51. > :01:56.and his British-born wife Asma. The cash of -- cache of e-mails were
:01:56. > :02:01.intercepted by a rebel group in Syria and leaked to the Guardian.
:02:01. > :02:11.In one of the E mailts between the couple, President Assad to his wife,
:02:11. > :02:12.
:02:12. > :02:16.mocks his own promised political reforms as the "Rubbish laws". His
:02:16. > :02:21.wife received an e-mail from, this is interesting, Mayassa al-Thani,
:02:21. > :02:25.she is the daughter of the Emir of Qatar, that is the Government
:02:25. > :02:31.behind Al-Jazeera, and she offered them it seems the chance to leave
:02:31. > :02:38.Syria, saying "I am sure you have many places to turn to, including
:02:38. > :02:42.Doha," which is the capital of Qatar. Asma shows an obsession with
:02:42. > :02:47.internet shopping including expensive shoes, and even a fondue
:02:47. > :02:51.set. Every Dick Tay tr's wife should have one! And they all have
:02:51. > :02:55.plenty of shoes, if I remember from the Philippines. The Guardian
:02:55. > :03:02.reports that the e-mails show that President Assad has been advised by
:03:02. > :03:08.Iran during the crisis. Again, no suprise there. Syria's closest ally
:03:08. > :03:13.is Iran. With me now Michael levy who was Tony Blair's Middle East
:03:13. > :03:17.envoy. Good to see you back. They are fascinating to see these kind
:03:17. > :03:23.of e-mails. Anybody's e-mails but particularly those from a dictator
:03:23. > :03:29.and his wife. But nothing in, I mean, they spend lots of money and
:03:29. > :03:34.gifts, they are in cahoots with Iran, nothing suprising really.
:03:34. > :03:38.what I would call a smoking gun there. It is stuff we would have
:03:38. > :03:43.expected. They live in their secluded castle, they are not in
:03:43. > :03:49.touch with the real world, and it is really more of the same of what
:03:49. > :03:54.one would have an tispailted and expect. Did you learn anything at
:03:54. > :03:59.all, any significance on the Emir of Qatar's daughter almost saying
:03:59. > :04:03.you can come here if things get rough. Not lail. They say one thing
:04:03. > :04:06.in public, in privately these people are friends and have known
:04:07. > :04:10.each other for years. You see, this current President, who was never
:04:10. > :04:14.meant to be President, it was meant to be his older brother, he was
:04:14. > :04:19.killed in a car crash, some people think in mysterious circumstances,
:04:20. > :04:24.he has a younger brother who people think is the real hard line one, he
:04:24. > :04:31.is head of the Republican Guard or whatever it is called in Syria, the
:04:31. > :04:34.British Foreign Office gave this guy the benefit of the doubt. They
:04:34. > :04:40.thought because he went to medical college, he had a lovely wife, he
:04:40. > :04:44.is not an evil dig dictator like his father. The father as you say
:04:44. > :04:51.was an evil dictator, I met him many times. I thought I had really
:04:51. > :04:55.done a deal with him, between Syria, and Israel, the father went to that
:04:55. > :05:01.meeting in Geneva with President Clinton, meeting got messed up. I
:05:01. > :05:05.will never forget the words, now is the time to talk to the Israelis
:05:05. > :05:10.without preconditions, the Americans couldn't believe it it.
:05:10. > :05:15.The Secretary of State went there, the talks tarted. It looks like
:05:15. > :05:20.there was an opportunity. But it didn't happen. The son came into
:05:20. > :05:26.power. Young man, as you say educated here, was there a
:05:26. > :05:30.opportunity for him to change what was going on in Syria? But again,
:05:30. > :05:38.the imprint of the father, the imprint of the regime was just so
:05:38. > :05:42.deep, and the tentacles with so clasping of the regime, that really
:05:42. > :05:45.nothing happened. Was it worthwhile? -- courting him,
:05:45. > :05:50.worthwhile seeing if he were for real? Yes I believe it was. I
:05:50. > :05:54.believe we are now in a situation where the scenarios are all pretty
:05:55. > :06:02.bad, but trying to work with him, what Kofi Annan is doing, trying to
:06:02. > :06:05.deal with the Russians, and to get them, if not on side, to understand
:06:05. > :06:10.their perspective, what is the alternative? To send our boys in,
:06:10. > :06:14.to send a force in, probably without a UN Resolution. That is
:06:14. > :06:19.not going to happen? Of course not. Another Afghanistan. Another Iraq,
:06:19. > :06:23.this is diplomacy and getting your hands dirty diplomacy, that is what
:06:23. > :06:29.this is about. In retrospect from what we know about the nature of
:06:29. > :06:33.the regime in Damascus, if the young Assad had turned out to be
:06:34. > :06:39.the westernised liberal reformer we were hoping he was, they would have
:06:39. > :06:44.deposed him. Andrew, I remember going shopping with this guy.
:06:44. > :06:49.younger Assad? The younger Assad. The old one never left Damascus. I
:06:49. > :06:54.didn't look what he was buying, but we are in the so-called VIP lounge
:06:54. > :06:59.in Serena airport. He was on the same plane as me. I had been there
:06:59. > :07:03.officially with my guys from the Foreign Office. And we spent time.
:07:04. > :07:08.We went round for about an hour together, and you know, you, as you
:07:08. > :07:12.say the guy spoke perfect English, you would have thought a complete
:07:13. > :07:19.gentleman, and then his father dies, he is now the dictator in Syria,
:07:19. > :07:24.and behaving the way he is. You really, there are such different
:07:24. > :07:31.sides to these people, they are one person when they are here, in
:07:31. > :07:36.England being educated, marrying a girl from Ealing, father, a really,
:07:36. > :07:42.very world respected medical man, and then they go back to where they
:07:42. > :07:47.were brought up, surrounded by the people there, their father, their
:07:47. > :07:52.regime, put into power. They are totally split personalities. It is
:07:52. > :07:57.almost a Jekyll and Hyde situation. Beware the girl from Ealing, that
:07:57. > :08:01.is the message in this foreign policy. I am sure her family
:08:01. > :08:05.wouldn't want you to say that. don't think it is enough coverage,
:08:05. > :08:09.we tend to see this as a battle between the rebel, the insurgent,
:08:09. > :08:16.the people trying to break free from dictatorship and their
:08:16. > :08:20.disparate group, they are united, suffering terrible casualties, and
:08:20. > :08:26.this regime. His mate, the big friend, the person giving him every
:08:27. > :08:32.possible help is Iran. He is their guy. He is their route to his
:08:32. > :08:39.southern Lebanon and down into Hamas, this is, Iran cannot afford
:08:39. > :08:46.to lose this regime. Correct. You are absolutely right. But Iran will
:08:46. > :08:52.play the game the way they want it. If Hezbollah and Hamas move out of
:08:52. > :08:56.Damascus, and move somewhere else. Like Lebanon. You bet they will
:08:56. > :09:02.back them no matter where they will be. At the end of the day Iran will
:09:02. > :09:07.take care of what Iran believes is going to be right for Iran. All of
:09:07. > :09:11.these countries, ultimately play the game that way. OK. Caroline,
:09:12. > :09:17.you, have you had a chance the glance at the e-mails. I had a
:09:18. > :09:23.quick look. I saw the hand made furniture from Chelsea. You know,
:09:23. > :09:26.as Lord Levy says it dedemonstrates because someone has a nice British
:09:26. > :09:31.accent it doesn't mean they can't be evil. What comes over is that
:09:31. > :09:36.contrast on the day when, you know, weapons are raining down on Homs,
:09:36. > :09:43.he is sending a thing on his iPad with music from you know, a western
:09:43. > :09:51.country singer from the US. Just, the parallel, the contrast of these
:09:51. > :09:56.things happening at the same time is shocking. On one night Hitler
:09:56. > :10:01.had a up meal. Interest stuff and I am sure more will come out in the
:10:01. > :10:05.days ahead that will tell us more about this. Michael thank you for
:10:05. > :10:09.joining us. Thank you very much. something a little more trivial. It
:10:10. > :10:14.is time for the daily quiz. It seems at some point all Prime
:10:14. > :10:17.Ministers let slip what they like to listen to their iPod. The
:10:17. > :10:27.question for today is what does David Cameron say he plays when he
:10:27. > :10:35.
:10:35. > :10:39.Caroline will give us the correct answer at the end of the show.
:10:39. > :10:43.Lucky Caroline. Lucky lucky Caroline. Now, all police officers
:10:43. > :10:48.should be made to take an annual fitness test. I must say that did
:10:48. > :10:51.make me smile this morning, with a pay cut for those who fail. I hope
:10:51. > :10:56.the BBC doesn't catch on with this! It is one of the recommendations
:10:56. > :11:00.from Tom Winsor, he is the man the Home Secretary asked to look into
:11:00. > :11:04.police pay. He has produced the second part of his report this
:11:04. > :11:11.morning, but will the Government take on the police in this way? Jo?
:11:11. > :11:15.There is a big battle, but Tom Winsor says there are unfairnesss,
:11:15. > :11:18.he has recommended an end to policing as a job for life. Saying
:11:19. > :11:25.that Chief Constables should be able to make redundancies, he also
:11:25. > :11:32.wants to introduce a system of performance related pay. Controv ly
:11:32. > :11:37.he suggests pay cuts for those who fail fitness tests. Critics are
:11:37. > :11:42.worried it will lead to more arrests, cash for collars. The
:11:42. > :11:47.first part of the report published last year recommended a cut in
:11:47. > :11:50.overtime pay designed to save about �150 million a year. Overall the
:11:50. > :11:54.police budget is being cut by 20% over four years in England and
:11:54. > :12:00.Wales. It is estimated there will be a reduction over over 16,000
:12:00. > :12:04.police officers by 2015, compared to the number in 2010. Speaking
:12:04. > :12:08.earlier today, let us listen to a bit of what Tom Winsor had to say.
:12:08. > :12:12.Polices is becoming more complex. It is not the blue collar job of 30
:12:12. > :12:16.years ago or longer, it is a complex environment, and it
:12:16. > :12:19.requires the most intellectually able people who have the other
:12:19. > :12:24.qualities to be police officers, which are just as important.
:12:24. > :12:30.Courage, judgment, self control, the ability to assess situation and
:12:30. > :12:32.deal with people. Are ven shall qualities. But raising the entrance
:12:32. > :12:37.requirements will increase the average quality of police officers
:12:37. > :12:41.in the future, to join the able people who are in the service today.
:12:41. > :12:44.That was Tom Winsor who carried out the report. Joining me is Simon
:12:45. > :12:49.Reed from the Police Federation. Can we get a genre action as to
:12:49. > :12:55.whether you welcome any of the proposals? These aren't reform,
:12:55. > :13:00.this is another cut to the police budget, Mr Winsor took �300 million
:13:00. > :13:04.in his fis report. He has grabbed nearly �2 billion on this occasion,
:13:04. > :13:08.it has been predictable what he said, most of it has been said
:13:08. > :13:13.before, and failed. We have looked at things like direct entry before
:13:13. > :13:17.and it has been rejected. So, he has had a difficult time. A task to
:13:17. > :13:21.cut the pay, he has cut the pay but it is not innovative, and it is
:13:21. > :13:26.pretty blunt, and we are going back 30 years to where we won't be able
:13:26. > :13:33.to recruit police or keep police. So that is what you say, so you
:13:33. > :13:36.will resist the proposals. A few of them, let's us look at the raising
:13:36. > :13:41.minimum standards, is that something you couldn't support.
:13:41. > :13:45.average age of an officer is 27678 40pergs have degrees and they come
:13:45. > :13:49.with maturity and values that we are looking for. That is who the
:13:49. > :13:55.modern recruit to the police service is. They are good people.
:13:55. > :13:59.Now, making the minimum recruitment for three A-levels is irrel vaant.
:13:59. > :14:04.We are getting mature people, nearly half of whom have degrees,
:14:04. > :14:08.what is wrong with that. What about the annual fitness test? Some
:14:08. > :14:12.people might say I would have thought that would have been scheme,
:14:13. > :14:18.with a reduction for thoz who fail. Shouldn't they be fit enough to do
:14:18. > :14:21.the job? Most are fit enough to do the job. There is fitness testing
:14:21. > :14:24.for firearms officers but the emphasis has and should be on
:14:24. > :14:29.health. It shouldn't just be about how fast you can run. We should be
:14:29. > :14:33.saying we want you to be healthy, the problem is, very few welfare
:14:33. > :14:37.departments now are left in the police service, so the
:14:37. > :14:41.infrastructure for what Mr Winsor is suggesting, doesn't currently
:14:41. > :14:44.exist either. Right. I mean, you know, there are a lot of
:14:44. > :14:50.recommendations and none of which you seem to be embracing,
:14:50. > :14:54.increasing the pension age to 60, what do you say to that? Do you
:14:54. > :14:59.want to see 60-year-old police officers? He is talking about
:14:59. > :15:05.making them fit. There will be some 60-year-old officers who are fit.
:15:05. > :15:12.But policing is a strenuous job. Can we expect people of that age to
:15:12. > :15:16.be on the streets chasing 18-year- old offenders. I am joined by Keith
:15:16. > :15:24.Vaz, Labour MP and by Mark Reckless, Conservative member of that
:15:24. > :15:29.You have criticised the length of time needed to produce his report.
:15:29. > :15:32.Was it worth the wait? It is worth the wait in the sense it provides
:15:32. > :15:36.us with information that will help us with the new landscape of
:15:36. > :15:40.policing. I admire what the Government has done in terms of
:15:40. > :15:44.wanting to radically changed the landscape of policing, it does need
:15:44. > :15:50.change. The problem with this report is it has taken 18 months to
:15:50. > :15:55.come out. We had Mr Winsor before our committee on his first report
:15:55. > :15:59.on Tuesday. It is helpful but it is only part of the solution. There
:15:59. > :16:03.are bits I like, there are bits I think will create problems.
:16:03. > :16:08.idea of a fitter police force? long as they don't start
:16:08. > :16:12.introducing fitness tests for MPs I don't have a problem! Have caught
:16:12. > :16:16.it is important that police officers are fit. If you look
:16:16. > :16:20.around the Palace of Westminster, there are people who are right for
:16:20. > :16:25.the job. Things like performance- related pay, Andrew, does it mean
:16:25. > :16:31.they have to rest a certain number of people during a day or a week?
:16:31. > :16:36.If they don't, they get their pay docked or they get more pay? I was
:16:36. > :16:40.hoping you would answer that! I ask the questions! What does it do?
:16:40. > :16:44.That is what the public want. The day I first met the police officer,
:16:44. > :16:48.they knocked on the door of my house and asked to see my father
:16:48. > :16:54.and they informed my mother he had been killed in an accident and they
:16:54. > :17:00.spent a huge amount of time with her. I was 14 years old. That time
:17:00. > :17:05.is not going to be able to be spent. The public don't want officers on
:17:05. > :17:11.the end of the phone. I can't answer your questions, you can't
:17:11. > :17:15.answer your questions. Let's ask Mark. There is very little in the
:17:15. > :17:20.way of performance bonuses we have seen in this new scheme. There
:17:20. > :17:23.might be one element of �600 you get if you have particular skills.
:17:24. > :17:27.We have seen the special priority payments have been done away with
:17:27. > :17:32.and that has saved money for the police. Is that a good thing?
:17:32. > :17:36.think so. As a member of a police authority, I initially supported
:17:36. > :17:40.these but the more I saw of these, I thought it was divisive. Do you
:17:40. > :17:45.think these reforms go far enough? I am very impressed with what I
:17:45. > :17:48.have read so far of this very substantial and considered report.
:17:48. > :17:55.It really is going to give us... You think the Government should
:17:55. > :17:59.push ahead with this? Put it into effect? The principles of this are
:17:59. > :18:06.very good. They will also help the police start recruiting again. If
:18:06. > :18:09.you allow the police to bring in new officers, what that can mean
:18:09. > :18:14.his most forces have hundreds if not thousands of people wanting to
:18:14. > :18:18.join the police. They can bring in new people with some of the money
:18:19. > :18:24.for that money saved. Something jumped out at me from the report.
:18:24. > :18:28.They wanted a scheme allowing new recruits directly to enter the
:18:28. > :18:32.police service at inspector rank. Is that the beginning of trying to
:18:32. > :18:38.create an officer class? We need to look carefully at these proposals
:18:38. > :18:42.and put them in the context of what the Government is doing. We all
:18:42. > :18:45.want to see professional officers. This is a profession, one of the
:18:45. > :18:51.most important and respected professions in the country. Of
:18:51. > :18:55.course we have to look at these issues. It has not had an offer
:18:56. > :19:00.could -- officer class like the army. Is it right? The manager of
:19:00. > :19:04.the local Tesco has been successful a lot of product, but I'm against
:19:04. > :19:10.him coming into the police force as Inspector. We need to study these
:19:10. > :19:13.proposals carefully. Look at our profession as MPs. We have people
:19:13. > :19:19.coming in from every single walk of life. There's nothing wrong with
:19:19. > :19:24.that. You are nearly all professional politicians? Police 4
:19:24. > :19:30.x lawyer's... My case rests! need to be careful who these people
:19:30. > :19:34.are. We need to look at the requirements. Do you want to see...
:19:34. > :19:38.It's been a criticism and people are either for it or against it.
:19:38. > :19:42.Some people's critique of the police have said it's never had a
:19:42. > :19:47.proper officer class the way the army or the military has. That
:19:47. > :19:51.might be the wrong analogy. strikes the right balance. It
:19:51. > :19:55.doesn't go all the way to a separate officer class, but it
:19:55. > :20:01.allows for accelerated promotion. He inspectorate will be open to
:20:01. > :20:10.existing police officers as well as people from outside. You have that
:20:10. > :20:15.at superintendent level. Crucially, we will open the police up at Chief
:20:15. > :20:18.Constable level to people from Australia, the US, other people who
:20:19. > :20:24.have experience, to bring in new ideas. I don't think there will be
:20:24. > :20:34.a lot of new people, but the possibility of it has to be good.
:20:34. > :20:39.Let me give you this... Politicians on the left and the right often say
:20:39. > :20:42.the police needs more reform. Its real critics call it, along with
:20:42. > :20:47.the prison services officers, the last unreformed public service. If
:20:47. > :20:53.you listen to the Police Federation, they say we have seen a minimum 20%
:20:53. > :20:56.cut to the police budget, a loss of 16,000 officers over the next four
:20:56. > :21:00.years, 300 million removed from police pay, increased pension
:21:00. > :21:05.contributions, a two-year public sector pay freeze, a cap of 1%
:21:05. > :21:10.increase in years three and four. Let me encapsulate that. Enough is
:21:10. > :21:13.enough. I'm in favour of reform, but what you have to do is carry
:21:14. > :21:18.the police with you. What we have got is this stand-off which they
:21:19. > :21:21.feel everything has been done which undermines them. What the Home
:21:21. > :21:27.Secretary and Nick Herbert have to do is make sure they are part of
:21:27. > :21:32.the solution. Bring them with the Government on these reforms. There
:21:32. > :21:35.will be opposition. There is opposition! I do hope ministers
:21:35. > :21:39.will push most of this through because I think it is the right
:21:39. > :21:43.thing for the police force. What you have said in terms of those
:21:43. > :21:48.reductions, those savings, that means that many more people can
:21:48. > :21:52.stay on as police officers, we can recruit more officers. We also have
:21:52. > :21:55.to look at the police staff and get them working together with the
:21:55. > :22:00.police without these artificial divisions we've had in the past.
:22:00. > :22:03.What are your thoughts, Caroline? The list of the cuts you just read
:22:03. > :22:07.out is instructive because that is the backdrop for this and it is not
:22:07. > :22:10.surprising that the police feel very under pressure and battered at
:22:10. > :22:14.the moment and therefore somewhat suspicious of some of the
:22:14. > :22:17.recommendations in the latest report. My concern around some of
:22:17. > :22:20.the work around direct entry is the Government says it wants the police
:22:20. > :22:24.to be held in the same esteem as doctors and lawyers, so do why, but
:22:24. > :22:27.in doctors and lawyers you would not have someone coming in at
:22:27. > :22:33.direct entry level and do some operations on you. One would hope
:22:33. > :22:43.not! It is a very strange way of trying to achieve the end they want.
:22:43. > :22:45.
:22:45. > :22:47.We will leave it there. Thank you. Gay marriage is back on the agenda
:22:47. > :22:50.today with the Equalities Minister, Lynne Featherstone, launching a
:22:50. > :22:52.consultation this morning. The Government say they want to
:22:52. > :22:55.legislate to allow what they call "equal marriage," but although
:22:55. > :22:58.Conservative MPs have been told they're be allowed a free vote,
:22:58. > :23:06.there is anger amongst some Tory backbenchers, not to mention many
:23:06. > :23:11.in the church. Speaking this morning, Lynne Featherstone said:
:23:11. > :23:16.It was very clear that there was a big inequality, the great
:23:16. > :23:20.unhappiness with that particular barrier. Civil marriages, the
:23:20. > :23:25.marriages offered by the state, were only available to opposite sex
:23:25. > :23:28.couples. We have a law that doesn't discriminate. We believe that
:23:28. > :23:33.people, same-sex people's love and commitment is exactly the same as
:23:33. > :23:37.people from the opposite sex. As the Government, we feel we are duty
:23:38. > :23:42.bound to offer the same facilities, if you like, to people regardless
:23:42. > :23:46.of their gender. This is about love and wanting to be married.
:23:46. > :23:53.With me now is the Liberal Democrat Home Affairs spokesman, Tom Brake.
:23:53. > :23:57.And Austin ivory from Catholic voices. Listening to the equalities
:23:57. > :24:01.minister, what exactly is going to be gained in terms of any legal
:24:01. > :24:05.advantage? There doesn't seem to be any difference in terms of
:24:05. > :24:12.increased rights between gay marriage and civil partnerships.
:24:12. > :24:16.marriage is different. That is why many people choose to get married.
:24:16. > :24:21.That is why many gay people want to get married. I think there is a
:24:21. > :24:24.difference. But there won't be any new rights. The rights you get with
:24:24. > :24:30.the civil partnership will be the same for us if you are having a gay
:24:30. > :24:34.marriage. They are different, qualitatively, but it is actually
:24:34. > :24:38.about providing an opportunity for same-sex people to get married. I
:24:38. > :24:42.really don't see the problem. supposed to be a consultation at
:24:42. > :24:46.the moment, but it is not a consultation over whether it will
:24:46. > :24:50.happen, because it is clear the Government has made up its mind, it
:24:50. > :24:54.is how it will be implemented. is. All three party leaders are
:24:54. > :25:00.committed to gay marriage. This is about how to do it and not whether
:25:00. > :25:04.to do it. It was not in any manifesto. Not in the Conservative
:25:04. > :25:08.or Lib Dem manifestoes. It is the commitment we have decided to make.
:25:08. > :25:12.It is fair for the fair for a government come forward with
:25:12. > :25:16.proposals there's demand for. Interestingly, recent polls suggest
:25:16. > :25:20.over 60% of people think same-sex relationships are just as valid as
:25:20. > :25:24.heterosexual ones and if that is the case, why can't same-sex people
:25:24. > :25:28.get married? Her you argue there is a groundswell of opinion in favour
:25:28. > :25:32.of this happening? The polls suggest people think heterosexual
:25:32. > :25:36.and same-sex relationships are of equal value. There's been talk that
:25:36. > :25:40.Tory backbenchers are happy, some of them. I don't have numbers and I
:25:40. > :25:44.don't think it has been that vocal in terms of people who may be
:25:44. > :25:49.unhappy about it. Is there going to be a free vote? Will that
:25:49. > :25:55.categorically happen? 5 not sure whether there's going to be. I
:25:55. > :25:58.suspect that already we he reports some people will be given some
:25:58. > :26:02.flexibility in relation to this vote, but it's a clear commitment
:26:02. > :26:05.from the Government, a very clear expression of support from David
:26:05. > :26:08.Cameron that this is something the Government wants to do and I hope
:26:09. > :26:12.Tory and Lib Dem members will want to support this unanimously. It
:26:12. > :26:16.also has the support of the Labour Party. Would you like to see a free
:26:16. > :26:20.vote on this issue? The Government have made it clear this is
:26:20. > :26:23.something we intend daring and from a Lib Dem perspective, it is
:26:23. > :26:27.something there is a policy commitment to. Their something I'm
:26:27. > :26:31.baffled about. Lynne Featherstone has been at pains to stress that
:26:31. > :26:36.this is no obligation on churches or religious organisations to hold
:26:36. > :26:41.these ceremonies in a religious setting. Is it true that some
:26:41. > :26:45.religious groups... Liberal Jews, for instance, or Quakers, would
:26:45. > :26:50.like to hold a gay marriage in the synagogue but they can't? That's
:26:50. > :26:53.correct. What we are consulting on his about civil marriage and
:26:53. > :26:58.anything that the Government does would not actually legally allow
:26:58. > :27:01.religious marriage to take place. That is why on a bit confused as to
:27:01. > :27:05.why the Catholic Church, for instance, is as concerned as they
:27:05. > :27:10.appear to be. Why is the Catholic Church so concerned? Because people
:27:10. > :27:12.are concerned. This isn't just about the church. The polls show
:27:12. > :27:17.70% of people believe the current definition of marriage should stay
:27:17. > :27:21.the same. How does that square with the polls... The poll he was
:27:21. > :27:25.referring to was referring to the quality of relationships and life.
:27:25. > :27:29.People do respect homosexual love. When people asked about marriage,
:27:29. > :27:34.most people believe that the have gunged an institution, man passed
:27:34. > :27:38.woman. They wanted to stay that way. For duvet? That is maybe what
:27:38. > :27:41.people understand it to be, but why can't that change? People don't
:27:41. > :27:46.want it to change because they recognise it is a unique
:27:46. > :27:51.institution with unique benefits. Not only is it an institution that
:27:51. > :27:54.exists in societies, the building block of civil society. The state
:27:54. > :27:59.exists to recognise and protect that marriage institution in the
:27:59. > :28:04.same way the Church St defies it. The proposal here is not just to
:28:04. > :28:07.allow a group -- the group of people to marry, it is to rearrange
:28:07. > :28:11.the architecture of marriage. is civil marriage. It doesn't have
:28:11. > :28:16.anything to do with judges for religions in that sense. You are
:28:16. > :28:20.not being asked to preside over these ceremonies. There are not two
:28:20. > :28:25.marriages in this country. There are two ways in to it, the civil
:28:25. > :28:28.and religious. Parliament decided nearly 200 years ago what the
:28:28. > :28:31.definition of marriage was. It is right that parliament should take
:28:31. > :28:35.the decision in relation to equal marriage. This is about providing
:28:35. > :28:43.it an opportunity for people who love each other to get married. I
:28:43. > :28:47.can't see the problem. desperate to come in! This issue is
:28:47. > :28:52.fundamental. It is about equality. That is why it seems odd to be
:28:52. > :28:56.worrying so much about whether or not it is 70% or 60% in favour. It
:28:56. > :29:00.is an issue about the qualities. We would not be having debate about
:29:00. > :29:03.this about whether women should have the vote. If you place the
:29:03. > :29:06.issue in that context of the qualities it is clear that the
:29:07. > :29:14.Government is doing the right thing. I'm not sure we need a consultation,
:29:14. > :29:18.I would like to see them just do it. It was in no manifesto. Suddenly we
:29:18. > :29:23.have this consultation paper being launched. This has been thrust upon
:29:23. > :29:27.people. You say it is about equality. There is no legal right
:29:27. > :29:32.gained by this. Equality and equivalents are not the same thing.
:29:32. > :29:36.If we were to open pensions to the under 65, that would be to overcome
:29:36. > :29:40.discrimination but it would also destroy pensions. What shocks me
:29:40. > :29:44.about this debate is that senior Catholic church leaders have
:29:44. > :29:47.described the proposals -- proposals as grotesque. I find that
:29:47. > :29:53.shocking. We're talking about allowing people who love each other
:29:53. > :29:59.to get married. Why is that grotesque? Had you feel about being
:29:59. > :30:02.accused of inflaming homophobia? That his inflammatory to say to the
:30:02. > :30:12.church that they are homophobic when the church is expressing the
:30:12. > :30:13.
:30:13. > :30:17.majority view of civil society. We want to welcome folks from
:30:17. > :30:22.Scotland who are watching now. They have been watching First Minister's
:30:22. > :30:26.Question, gay marriage was also on the agenda there. That is what we
:30:26. > :30:30.are talking about here in London as well, about the Government's
:30:30. > :30:36.changes here in Westminster for gay marriage. We hope in a few minutes
:30:36. > :30:40.to be joined by indeed I have been told he may be there now BBC
:30:40. > :30:49.Scotland's political editor Brian Taylor. Great to see you. What are
:30:49. > :30:56.they saying about gay marriage in the land of the brave? We have a
:30:56. > :31:01.picture of Brian. But clearly, they have nothing to say at all. Where
:31:01. > :31:05.do we go from here? We have a consultation, this consultation is
:31:05. > :31:09.about how to implement these rights, and what I think will, the
:31:09. > :31:12.Government will make very clear, is this is not about religious
:31:12. > :31:17.marriage, this is about civil marriage. When I got married in a
:31:17. > :31:20.civil marriage, that was a commitment to my wife, I didn't, we
:31:20. > :31:25.didn't emback, on something with the intent purpose of having
:31:25. > :31:30.children, so to suggest marriage is simply about procreation. It is not
:31:30. > :31:34.true. I didn't suggest that. think we have sound with Brian
:31:34. > :31:36.Taylor now. Brian. Good to see you. Thank you for joining u we are
:31:36. > :31:41.talking about gay marriage down here, tell us what the situation,
:31:41. > :31:45.the debate is in Scotland? I would be interested, because it has been
:31:45. > :31:50.said although in economic terms Scotland is more radical than
:31:50. > :31:54.England, in social terms, Scotland is often a more Conservative
:31:54. > :32:00.country, where are we? It is often thought to be that, if you recall
:32:00. > :32:05.the debate early on the business of clause 13, really, I think on the
:32:05. > :32:09.promotion of homosexuality in school, it was a very huge emotive
:32:09. > :32:13.edebate and the change wend ahead. At this point in Scotland there is
:32:13. > :32:17.a consultation issued, responses to that closed at the end of last year,
:32:17. > :32:21.and the Scottish Government say they Alex Salmond was asked about
:32:21. > :32:24.it, say they are considering the response, they got 50,000 response,
:32:24. > :32:27.very large indeed. The indication previously had been the Scottish
:32:27. > :32:31.Government would give the verdict in the spring. I think the spring
:32:31. > :32:34.in Scotland maybe extended a bit perhaps towards May or June.
:32:34. > :32:41.Ministers, Alex Salmond has said in the past he is in favour of the
:32:41. > :32:44.equality issue going ahead, in favour there by of gay marriage. He
:32:44. > :32:48.said in response to prompting from the leader of the Liberal Democrats
:32:49. > :32:52.who said stand against the serious forces, the church and others,
:32:52. > :32:56.arguing against this change, Mr Samed said it was right to take
:32:56. > :33:00.account of the consultation, and he urged those who were demanding that
:33:00. > :33:07.he stick to his path, that they shouldn't use inflammatory language.
:33:07. > :33:13.He said it was the wrong thing the debate required. Thank you for that
:33:13. > :33:17.Brian. An extended spring in Scotland? Brian is predicting that
:33:17. > :33:23.there. It is the nicest time of the year in Scotland, I hope it is
:33:23. > :33:27.extended. Thank you to our guests. Let us move on to something equally
:33:27. > :33:30.controversial. Who would be a banker? It seems not a day goes by
:33:30. > :33:35.wouldn't these poor misunderstood souls being attacked in the press
:33:35. > :33:39.for the sides of their bonuss or salaries or both. Is all this
:33:39. > :33:49.banker bashing justified or is it is a distraction from the real
:33:49. > :33:55.
:33:55. > :34:01.issues facing the economy? # Life the rich
:34:01. > :34:07.# And rich is nice # But all things come at a price #
:34:08. > :34:16.The very fact that a group of actors can put on in the West End,
:34:16. > :34:20.and expect the public to come and watch a play called Toxic Bankers
:34:20. > :34:23.demonstrates how disliked these people are. Do they really deserve
:34:23. > :34:28.it? Should we give them a break? have gone too far. We are saying
:34:28. > :34:32.that finance is useless, it is parasitic, they shouldn't exist or
:34:32. > :34:37.it shouldn't exist in the UK. That is totally misguided and economic
:34:37. > :34:41.suicide for the UK. Even bankers admit that to lift to cloud of
:34:42. > :34:46.suspicion from them, a deal M&S now be done that ensures banks stay
:34:46. > :34:52.afloat and never rely on us for bail ought. But their pay is so
:34:52. > :34:56.high. Isn't it? # The avaricious values sh
:34:56. > :35:03.# On which our lives are built # Mean in this time of crisis
:35:03. > :35:09.# We have to share the guilt # The official data shows about a
:35:09. > :35:13.third of 50 pence taxpayers work in the financial sector. So they will
:35:13. > :35:17.be people who work in industry, actor, doctors, all sorts of
:35:17. > :35:23.profession like that, so it is wrong to think the only place where
:35:23. > :35:26.there is very large salaries is finance, that is not the case. This
:35:26. > :35:35.musical doesn't include the song brother can you spare a dime? Isn't
:35:35. > :35:43.that the crux of our anger? They won't lend to anyone any more.
:35:43. > :35:47.# Smash the system # Trash the bankers #
:35:47. > :35:50.What happened here is that the Government have stepped in and
:35:50. > :35:55.massively changed regulations governing lending. They are forcing
:35:55. > :36:00.banks to lend less, telling them to lend at a more expensive rate by
:36:00. > :36:03.forcing them to hold more capital. Many of these reforms make sense,
:36:03. > :36:08.because they ensure the banking system is more prudent and there is
:36:08. > :36:12.more, greater reserves in case something goes wrong, but the
:36:12. > :36:17.consequence of that is always higher lending costs, and reduced
:36:17. > :36:23.lending. OK, that is all very clever, but they started this
:36:23. > :36:27.crisis. # Who's to blame? #
:36:27. > :36:30.As everyone is aware we were happy to take the mortgage, credit cards
:36:30. > :36:35.when they were available, although there are important questions to be
:36:35. > :36:42.asked about bankers, perhaps we are all a bit to blame. In a way we
:36:42. > :36:48.probably could have called the show Toxic Bankers? After seeing that we
:36:48. > :36:54.could have the singing Daily Politics. Joining me is Mark
:36:54. > :36:58.Littlewood. Let me bowl you a fast one right away. Bob Diamond picked
:36:58. > :37:00.up �28 million last year, justify that. It is not for me to justify
:37:01. > :37:04.it. It for the shareholders to justify. The last thing we need
:37:04. > :37:11.which is the danger we are moving into is having politicians debating
:37:11. > :37:14.this. We almost had the near farce of Steven Hester's salary being
:37:14. > :37:19.debated on the floor of the House. But politicians are going to debate
:37:19. > :37:22.it? I think what we still have is this back wash still, a fury about
:37:22. > :37:27.the abilities, that there is this feeling if the taxpayers leap to
:37:27. > :37:32.your aid if you go bust, you can't have this heads I win, details you
:37:33. > :37:38.bail me out. If we can move, which I think we are taking steps towards,
:37:38. > :37:41.that if Barclays goes down it is wound up rather than bailed out. It
:37:41. > :37:44.is up to Barclay what is they are paid. They have to makes the
:37:44. > :37:50.judgment, not politicians. Well, there are issues of fairns here,
:37:50. > :37:55.and it goes wider than the banks. I can see that Bob Diamond is kind of
:37:55. > :38:01.at the upper echelons of this. If you look at the, the directors of
:38:01. > :38:07.leading British firm, this is not just bankers but all firm, they saw
:38:07. > :38:16.their earnings in the last financial year rise by 49%. And yet
:38:16. > :38:23.average pay, in the private sector rose by 2.6%. Why it is fair for
:38:23. > :38:27.the bosses to get 49%, and the ordinary workers to get 2.6%?
:38:27. > :38:35.averages cover a very wide range of different areas. There was one boss
:38:35. > :38:39.I think that goes into that figure whose salary went up 400%. But his
:38:39. > :38:44.company performed fantasticically. They are getting big erase, we are
:38:44. > :38:50.told in the information age that a company runs on its brain, that the
:38:50. > :38:55.quality and productivity and brainpower of the work force.
:38:55. > :39:00.the guy at the top. Why the discrepancy. You need to go through
:39:00. > :39:07.company by company, but the guy at the top is very important,
:39:07. > :39:12.sometimes people make in, I think, wrong suggestion that if the share
:39:12. > :39:18.price fall the boss must be doing a bad job. Sometimes that is not true.
:39:18. > :39:24.Sometimes the hardst job is to stabilise a fail ing company.
:39:24. > :39:29.you telling me that Bob dime would work only half as hard if we paid
:39:29. > :39:33.him �14 million. It is not a question of us paying him. We all
:39:33. > :39:37.have insurance policies, the money is, in a sense, I mean let me not
:39:37. > :39:41.take a populist line on this, let me do it another way. This is theft
:39:41. > :39:44.from the shareholders. This is money that belongs to the
:39:45. > :39:51.shareholders that senior management are pinching. Not pinching it. You
:39:51. > :39:55.have to decide, there has to be a process to decide what the is
:39:55. > :40:00.correct remuen Asian, would be 20 be OK, they have to have a process
:40:00. > :40:04.in place, that determines what they think he is worth, it is not qeef
:40:04. > :40:10.him working... You know as well as I do, shareholders do not determine
:40:10. > :40:14.these salaries. They don't. That is a fiction. It is remuen nation
:40:14. > :40:20.committees that determine them. Not always, often, I am on your
:40:20. > :40:25.committee if you sit on mine and we will both get �28 million. I think
:40:25. > :40:29.there is a case for greater shareholder activism, but we can't.
:40:29. > :40:34.It would be disastrous if we got into a cycle that any ort of
:40:34. > :40:38.substantial salary in the tns shall services is pinching or stealing,
:40:38. > :40:45.it isn't. I wanted to sign you up, I thought you were doing a really
:40:45. > :40:48.good job. I am cheaper than �28 million. You are right of the
:40:48. > :40:53.limitations for shareholders to hold chief executive to account.
:40:53. > :40:58.Some of the shares are held for microseconds before they get passed
:40:58. > :41:01.on. Many are held by others in other countries and others have
:41:01. > :41:06.vested interested. So that is not going to work. I think particularly
:41:06. > :41:11.now, at a time when we are supposed to be in this together. Where have
:41:11. > :41:17.I heard that? It is corrosive for people to say their own salaries
:41:17. > :41:22.going down, at the same time as you say, these bankers and many others
:41:22. > :41:26.are getting high pay outs. There is one way you could say these guys
:41:26. > :41:30.are getting really big salaries and they are nearly all guys. They are
:41:30. > :41:34.getting big salaries. We don't think they are worth it but in the
:41:34. > :41:37.end of the day the consequences of Government trying to intervene in
:41:37. > :41:41.the private sector and saying you are worth that, that is never going
:41:41. > :41:46.to work in the end. Let us take the view Bob Diamond is getting 28
:41:46. > :41:49.million, we the taxpayer will get 14 million of that and so we are
:41:49. > :41:54.quids in. That is what I would suggest, that rather than having
:41:54. > :41:58.politicians try and work out what the figure should be, let us have a
:41:58. > :42:02.50% tax and a permanent tax on bonuses, that would be a simple way
:42:02. > :42:07.of doing it. You could look at issues of the differential between
:42:07. > :42:12.company, putting the highest paid and lowest paid. That concentrates
:42:12. > :42:15.mind. If people want to get higher they would have to bring up the
:42:15. > :42:20.lowest paid. There was a documentary on the BBC last night,
:42:20. > :42:23.not mine, from America, they talked in the 1950s the differential
:42:23. > :42:30.tweenk between the chief executive of the General Motors and the
:42:30. > :42:34.average worker was 40-1. Today it is 550-1. That is a huge difference.
:42:34. > :42:40.Any way I have run out of hard balls so you can put your bat down
:42:40. > :42:44.and go back to the tea room. Always good to be bowled out by you Andrew.
:42:44. > :42:47.David Cameron and Barack Obama have promised to review the rules on
:42:48. > :42:51.extradition following a series of high profile case, the current ex
:42:51. > :42:55.pra dition treaty between Britain and America was signed in 2003.
:42:55. > :42:59.Complaints were raised over the case of the NatWest Three who were
:42:59. > :43:04.extradited to America, and convicted of fraud connected to the
:43:04. > :43:08.Enron scandal. Then there was Gary McKinnon whon has been accused of
:43:08. > :43:10.hacking NASA and Pentagon computers. Concern has been raised by the case
:43:11. > :43:15.of Christopher Tappin, the businessman who is awaiting trial
:43:16. > :43:20.in America on charges of illegally exporting goods to Iran. Last month
:43:20. > :43:23.David Cameron said that Mr Tappin's case raised the need for a
:43:23. > :43:27.thoughtful review of the process. His son Neil told the Daily
:43:27. > :43:31.Politics he felt his father's treatment had been unfair. He has
:43:31. > :43:35.never once had the opportunity to show any of the evidence on his
:43:35. > :43:42.side of the argument, so in the hear information this country, the
:43:42. > :43:46.US put across their side of the story, and then our lawyers had to
:43:46. > :43:51.argue a few technical points which were pointless, so he goes out
:43:51. > :43:58.there, he is in a cell on his own, no contact with us, 5,000 miles
:43:58. > :44:05.away from home. It feels to us and if his presumption ofness has been
:44:05. > :44:08.lost. That that is Neil Tappin talking about his faer. Let us get
:44:08. > :44:13.more from Dominic Raab. What can be done? Is this not just window
:44:13. > :44:18.dressing? We have had a review, we have had the baker review, he was
:44:18. > :44:23.very clear, he said the treaty was not one sided. It doesn't operate
:44:23. > :44:28.in an unbalanced manner. Apart from tweaking nothing is going to change
:44:28. > :44:33.I would dispute that on the facts. The ratio of citizens between the
:44:33. > :44:37.US and UK is something like five to one. It is in practise lopsided.
:44:37. > :44:41.The point Baker made is that the legal tests, the evidential tests
:44:41. > :44:45.are broadly similar, that is true, I think more or less but the key
:44:45. > :44:49.thing is the way judges look at the evidence in the US, and they don't
:44:49. > :44:53.do that here. The other critical think thing, I think that is what
:44:53. > :45:00.is being trailed is this idea of a forum test, when you cross border
:45:00. > :45:07.cases what this means is they could be tried here if it's a crime here.
:45:07. > :45:10.Do you dispute what Scott Baker has done. His conclusions are clear, it
:45:10. > :45:16.doesn't leave room for manoeuvre for David Cameron to look at this
:45:16. > :45:19.again. I disagree. We have had review, there is a problem with the
:45:19. > :45:22.Baker review, four months on we don't have any of the evidence it
:45:22. > :45:29.received. That cast a shadow over the credibility of the report.
:45:29. > :45:34.it going to be published? I am calling for it to be published.
:45:34. > :45:39.that because you are worried it wasn't as independent as it said on
:45:39. > :45:42.the tin? I am no doubt about the propriety of Scott Baker but the
:45:42. > :45:47.evidence was shifted over the Home Office. It is extraordinary to have
:45:47. > :45:54.an independent review and you don't have the evidence published so
:45:54. > :45:58.people can see why people came ep to these conclusions. There is a
:45:58. > :46:03.case of baba Ahmed who has been in prison without charge and the US
:46:03. > :46:09.wants to extradite him. He hasn't been. This is a case that you
:46:09. > :46:12.brought, shouldn't he be extradited. No, he is a UK citizen. The crimes
:46:12. > :46:16.which he is alleged to have committed are supposed to have
:46:16. > :46:18.happened in the UK. We should be trying that in this country. He is
:46:18. > :46:23.under severe accusation and it is right there should be a trial. He
:46:23. > :46:28.wants a trial. U but it should be in the UK where the crimes are
:46:28. > :46:32.alleged to have occurred. Where someone hasn't been extradite, we
:46:32. > :46:36.are seeing the example where people feel they have been handed over too
:46:36. > :46:39.easily and quickly. The whole thing is a mess. Whatever you think it
:46:39. > :46:43.can't be right to hold someone for years as a matter of principle that
:46:43. > :46:46.can't be right. I think David Cameron is brave taking this on. He
:46:47. > :46:51.is addressing the matter with the President, something that Tony
:46:51. > :46:55.Blair was scared to do, with all those accusations of being a poodle.
:46:55. > :47:00.It is important he addresses this. There is an expectation that
:47:00. > :47:04.something will happen. The House of Commons voted for reform, not just
:47:04. > :47:08.of the US arrangement but the European arrest warrant.
:47:08. > :47:12.officials are looking at how this treaty is working, are you
:47:12. > :47:16.optimistic is going to change. Something is, you have heard the
:47:16. > :47:20.Prime Minister and the President saying they are going to examine it
:47:20. > :47:24.and that has to be good news. Greens achieved the dream of any
:47:24. > :47:29.small party, they got a seat in the Commons. Caroline Lucas won
:47:29. > :47:35.Brighton Pavillion. He is a lone voice and there is a limit to what
:47:35. > :47:45.one MP can do. Has it allowed The Greens to shine. We sent David
:47:45. > :47:45.
:47:45. > :47:49.Thompson up the property ladder to This might be the most eco-friendly
:47:49. > :47:54.house in Britain and if the greens were in power, they would probably
:47:54. > :47:57.like us all to live in a place like this. But they do have one foot on
:47:57. > :48:01.the Westminster property ladder. The Green Party now have a seat at
:48:01. > :48:05.the top table of British politics and it has always been seen as a
:48:05. > :48:10.triumph to have a green voice on the green benches, but actually, as
:48:10. > :48:15.having an MP made a blind bit of difference? It has been an article
:48:15. > :48:19.of faith that getting an MP in Parliament would be the be-all and
:48:19. > :48:24.end-all for a small minority party. We now know that is not the case.
:48:24. > :48:28.It is massively important and the role Caroline has is important, but
:48:28. > :48:32.the success of green ideas does not depend on having one MP in
:48:32. > :48:36.Parliament. There are some who describe themselves as turquoise
:48:36. > :48:41.Tories, True Blues but a bit green who are frankly fairly caustic
:48:41. > :48:47.about the impact Caroline Lucas has made. I'm not sure I'm finding
:48:47. > :48:52.having a green member of parliament as creative as I thought it might
:48:52. > :48:57.be, for creating as much attention as I was expecting. I would say
:48:57. > :49:04.good on the publicity, but maybe a bit light on policy. Apart from
:49:04. > :49:06.Caroline in Westminster, the Greens have two MSPs in Scotland, and 133
:49:06. > :49:10.councillors in England and Wales and they control one council,
:49:10. > :49:14.Brighton and Hove. They have to make gains in local government, but
:49:14. > :49:18.think it is too early to say what will happen in Westminster. But
:49:18. > :49:22.even their friends are doubtful whether Caroline will have to budge
:49:22. > :49:26.up any time soon. It is difficult to make the sunshine there -- a
:49:26. > :49:30.function that having one Green MP in Parliament, however good, it
:49:30. > :49:34.leads automatically to the election of a lot of green MPs. That doesn't
:49:34. > :49:41.mean sitting in splendid isolation in the Palace of Westminster is a
:49:41. > :49:46.waste of time. Organisations like Age UK and Kucker look at most MPs
:49:46. > :49:50.in vain. The debate on nuclear power, where all the major parties
:49:50. > :49:55.have given up on finding alternatives to nuclear power, the
:49:55. > :49:57.Green Party can do that. There's a very important role of bringing
:49:57. > :50:02.these radical and ideas into the heart of the system that seems
:50:02. > :50:06.locked into this very cruel politics of austerity without any
:50:06. > :50:13.imagination about how a better world might be created. Or maybe it
:50:13. > :50:18.is. As a single issue parliamentarian, there's a huge
:50:18. > :50:24.opportunity. I'm not sure she has taken that opportunity and I am not
:50:24. > :50:28.sure the green message is coming through as strongly. Her platform,
:50:28. > :50:32.as it is from the coalition's platform, she is responding to our
:50:32. > :50:36.policies, not the other way. Harsh words but that's life in
:50:36. > :50:42.Westminster. Will that ever really be the ideal home for the Green
:50:42. > :50:49.Party? Caroline is still with us. I didn't
:50:49. > :50:53.run away! I don't blame me. It was obviously going to be difficult
:50:53. > :50:59.because you're one of over 600 and you what a woman in what is still a
:50:59. > :51:03.kind of men's club, despite the increase in women. Has it been more
:51:03. > :51:08.difficult than you thought or have you been able to make more of an
:51:08. > :51:11.impact than you had? It depends how you measure impact. In terms of
:51:11. > :51:16.getting key issues on the political agenda that otherwise would not
:51:16. > :51:20.have been there, we can say I've been successful. Example?
:51:21. > :51:24.nuclear power. The Liberals are meekly following the Conservatives
:51:24. > :51:28.and they have given up their opposition to nuclear power. The
:51:28. > :51:35.majority of people are opposed. Where is the voice and the Commons?
:51:35. > :51:38.If you look at the social issue, the NHS, who first started to push
:51:38. > :51:42.commercialisation in the NHS? Labour. The Lib Dems are following
:51:42. > :51:47.the Tories through the lobbies. Who is standing up for real public
:51:47. > :51:50.health service? The greens. Afghanistan, I've put down the
:51:50. > :51:54.amendment in a debate on Afghanistan calling for troops to
:51:54. > :51:59.be withdrawn. That did not come from any other party. If you're
:51:59. > :52:05.measuring it by putting issues on the grander, we are doing it. If
:52:05. > :52:09.you are asking if I can outvote 649 others... I can't. I wonder if the
:52:09. > :52:13.Times have been propitious for you. There are two ways in which Green
:52:13. > :52:17.issues have been put on the back- burner. One is the economic Times,
:52:17. > :52:24.which are quite grim and people are more worried about putting bread on
:52:24. > :52:27.the table, and the global warming issue, rightly or wrongly, has been
:52:27. > :52:31.put on the back foot as well. The public are more sceptical than they
:52:31. > :52:34.were. Let me take the first one around whether or not there's a
:52:34. > :52:39.contradiction between trying to get the economy back on track and
:52:39. > :52:42.promoting investment in green technologies. My role is unique.
:52:42. > :52:47.I'm the only one saying there doesn't have to be a division
:52:47. > :52:52.between these things, precisely by investing in energy efficiency and
:52:52. > :52:57.renewables. They would have vastly good economic effects as well as
:52:57. > :53:00.good environmental effects. I was able to help instigate an inquiry
:53:00. > :53:04.into the green economy to make sure those arguments were heard by a
:53:04. > :53:07.cross-party committee of MPs and hopefully then to go forward to
:53:07. > :53:11.make recommendations for the Government. Since getting elected,
:53:11. > :53:15.we have been a strong green voice in Parliament. Membership of the
:53:15. > :53:24.Green Party has doubled. We have our first council in Brighton and
:53:24. > :53:27.Hove. Success in your grasp! What more can I say?
:53:27. > :53:30.All those pictures we've seen on the news and in the papers of David
:53:30. > :53:33.Cameron and Barack Obama schmoozing must be the stuff spin doctors
:53:33. > :53:36.dream of. But just how important are these photo opportunities and
:53:37. > :53:40.what happens when they don't go according to plan? In a moment,
:53:40. > :53:42.I'll be speaking to one of Tony Blair's former spin doctors as well
:53:43. > :53:52.as the Sun's former political editor, but first, here's a look
:53:53. > :53:53.
:53:53. > :54:51.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 58 seconds
:54:51. > :54:54.There was a great end! Well, former Labour spin doctor
:54:54. > :55:02.Lance Price and George Pascow Watson, who's now at the PR firm
:55:02. > :55:06.Portland, are with us now. Do they work or of a very risky? They are
:55:06. > :55:10.slightly risky, but in the name, particularly with someone like
:55:10. > :55:14.David Cameron, who is a natural performer, they are fantastic. A
:55:14. > :55:17.great set of pictures can tell a fantastic story and they also give
:55:18. > :55:22.a politician the chance to shine as a normal human being away from
:55:22. > :55:27.Westminster. I presume that is what they are for, to show they are
:55:27. > :55:31.human. We know they are. But to show them in normal surroundings.
:55:31. > :55:36.But that clip of Tony Blair on the Tube, he looked really awkward, I
:55:36. > :55:41.thought. I have to put my hand on your heart -- my heart. I was Byley
:55:41. > :55:46.responsible. The idea was to make him look as if he understood the
:55:46. > :55:52.concerns of normal people. Travelling on public transport. But
:55:52. > :55:56.it is not true. You can only do it if it is true. It has to look right.
:55:56. > :55:59.When we put him on the Tube or when we encouraged him to travel by
:55:59. > :56:03.Ryanair on holiday one time because there were too many stories about
:56:03. > :56:08.his fancy holidays, those sorts of photo opportunities go horribly
:56:08. > :56:13.wrong. When you look at pictures between American President's and
:56:13. > :56:18.British prime ministers, there's a feeling sometimes that you see that
:56:18. > :56:22.unequal relationship, however good the photo opportunity, they look as
:56:22. > :56:26.if they are the underling, if you like, to the American President. Is
:56:26. > :56:30.that something you can't overcome in a photo? I'm not sure it's too
:56:30. > :56:35.much of a problem. There will always be a sense that America is a
:56:35. > :56:39.bigger animal than Britain. People don't have the time that people who
:56:39. > :56:43.watched this show normally get to tune into politics. It is quite a
:56:43. > :56:46.boring and difficult subject for a lot of people. Sometimes big
:56:46. > :56:50.pictures like this are the way they get their perceptions and that is
:56:50. > :56:54.really important for politicians. It is also important to point out
:56:54. > :56:58.that what we've seen in this footage is a little bit. We haven't
:56:58. > :57:01.seen the private stuff. The prime minister had 80 minutes on Air
:57:01. > :57:06.Force One, one-on-one with the President. We don't see that sort
:57:06. > :57:10.of picture. It is important to give the picture of security, economic
:57:10. > :57:16.lakes and the fact we are being taken seriously. It doesn't change
:57:16. > :57:21.anyone's vote. I doubt it. You have to provide pictures for television.
:57:21. > :57:25.You guys need pictures. If you have a big event on the health service,
:57:25. > :57:29.for example, you will see another picture of David Cameron listening
:57:29. > :57:33.to nurses or Nick Clegg nodding his head sagely in the background,
:57:33. > :57:38.making it look like they are engaging. It is all a bit
:57:38. > :57:41.artificial. The real work goes on behind closed doors in really
:57:41. > :57:45.serious discussions and the prime ministers and party leaders get a
:57:45. > :57:51.bit fed up with these photo- opportunities. How much time do you
:57:51. > :57:54.spend on thinking about the photo opportunity? Whoever came up of
:57:54. > :57:58.that idea of Ed Balls and Andy Burnham swinging on those swings.
:57:58. > :58:02.There are people like me who think about these things all the time and
:58:02. > :58:05.it is not that easy. You get a brief that says make the prime
:58:05. > :58:11.minister look more human. You scratch your head. Half the time it
:58:11. > :58:15.doesn't work. Half the time it is counter-productive because prime
:58:15. > :58:20.ministers are not like the rest of us. Thank you for joining us.
:58:20. > :58:29.Time to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was: What does
:58:29. > :58:34.David Cameron say he plays when he needs a lift? Do you know the
:58:34. > :58:39.answer? I can remind you... I was going to go for the last one but I
:58:39. > :58:46.can't remember. That was Champagne supernova by Oasis. Do you know?
:58:46. > :58:50.have drawn a blank. Thin Lizzie's Whiskey In The Jar.
:58:50. > :58:53.Andrew will sing it! You get to pick the winner. I was amazed that
:58:53. > :59:00.the President was allowed to use Air Force One to go to the
:59:00. > :59:08.basketball game. This is this the year winner. This is not the winner
:59:08. > :59:12.of that competition. This is yesterday's competition. The answer