:00:40. > :00:44.Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. Another day,
:00:44. > :00:50.another big speech from Ed Miliband on the economy. Other job to
:00:50. > :00:54.promises from Labour's real job guarantees real? Harriet Harman
:00:54. > :00:58.joins us from the party's big gathering in Coventry.
:00:58. > :01:02.Has the relationship between the Conservative Party ever recovered
:01:02. > :01:07.from scenes like this? One Tory MP believes it is time to kiss and
:01:07. > :01:10.make up but are the unions up for The Tories have a new leader. David
:01:10. > :01:14.Cameron is still in charge in Westminster but there is a new top
:01:14. > :01:22.Tory in Brussels. He join us for his first interview since getting
:01:22. > :01:30.the job. And plans to charge �15 decline Big
:01:30. > :01:33.Ben have been shelved. -- to climb Big Ben. We speak to one MP that
:01:33. > :01:41.thinks that charges should still be applied.
:01:41. > :01:45.I am joined by Jackie Ashley and The Guardian's James Forsyth,
:01:46. > :01:49.hopefully. He is stuck in traffic. Labour are gathered for an event
:01:49. > :01:56.which is not their traditional spring conference. That has been
:01:57. > :02:01.cancelled. This looks like an accelerated version. They get
:02:01. > :02:06.together in Coventry. How is Ed Miliband doing? He is ahead in some
:02:06. > :02:11.polls, behind in others, but since his performances in PMQs, he seems
:02:11. > :02:15.to be sorting out his troubled leadership. Good use? Not so fast.
:02:16. > :02:24.His critical friend blogger at Dan Hodges says that he is losing his
:02:25. > :02:30.grip on the Shadow Cabinet. Let's see what he has to say. He has had
:02:30. > :02:34.improved performances at PMQs. Why don't you get behind him? Well,
:02:34. > :02:37.because I am his critical friend, as you save. Labour are doing
:02:37. > :02:41.better in at the polls. There was common consensus that in the
:02:41. > :02:45.recession, Labour would see double- digit poll leads and we are not
:02:45. > :02:51.seeing that. His own poll ratings are stuck in the basement,
:02:51. > :02:55.subterranean. He is stuck at minus 14 and the reality is you cannot be
:02:55. > :03:03.Prime Minister from that position. As you have said, we have seen this
:03:03. > :03:08.week the amazing spectacle of open revolt against the prospect of Ed
:03:08. > :03:14.Miliband's staff coming in. What is this open revolt? For the people
:03:14. > :03:16.out there, is it significant? very significant. We had a
:03:16. > :03:19.situation where from the most junior to the most senior members
:03:19. > :03:25.of staff on Monday people were standing up and being openly
:03:25. > :03:29.critical. Who? Obviously I am not going to embarrass people buy it
:03:29. > :03:34.naming them and I will not cost them their jobs. It has been
:03:34. > :03:39.reported not just by me but by other newspapers as well. Obviously
:03:39. > :03:44.there is always a reaction when changes are afoot. A isn't that
:03:44. > :03:52.always the case? It is not the first time that Labour has had an
:03:52. > :03:57.internal row over changes. No, and in any organisation, like the BBC
:03:57. > :04:01.or the Conservative Party, people are resistant to change. People
:04:01. > :04:05.will recall working under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. These are
:04:05. > :04:14.people that are used to very centralised control. They are not
:04:14. > :04:17.used to a laissez faire, let 1000 flowers bloom type environments.
:04:17. > :04:26.They will object to control from the consent of but they also object
:04:26. > :04:31.to a lack of control and lack of leadership. -- control from the
:04:31. > :04:35.centre. In terms of Ed Miliband's standing, do you think he is being
:04:35. > :04:42.unfair in the way that he is not supporting him and his slight
:04:42. > :04:49.improvement? Yes, I would question whether he is a friend at all!
:04:49. > :04:53.think we were being generous! slightly wonder what you and your
:04:53. > :04:59.cohorts among the bloggers want. Do you want Ed Miliband to be forced
:04:59. > :05:04.out? Do you think that David can come back? And if you are allegedly
:05:04. > :05:10.Labour why are you so down on him? For some people, whatever Ed
:05:10. > :05:14.Miliband does, it is wrong. There is this general derision and
:05:14. > :05:17.sneering. It does not help. What I want is the Labour Party in
:05:17. > :05:22.Government and I want a Labour Party Prime Minister and I don't
:05:22. > :05:27.think anybody that I speak to in the party of the record, among the
:05:27. > :05:33.general people in Westminster and outside, actually sees Ed Miliband
:05:33. > :05:37.as the future Prime Minister. you do want him out? No. Who do you
:05:37. > :05:40.want in? It is not for me to pick the leader of the Labour Party. It
:05:40. > :05:45.is for me to analyse where the leader of the Labour Party is at
:05:45. > :05:52.present. You are absolutely right, 12 months ago, early on, I was
:05:52. > :05:54.critical of his leadership. I was told that I have to wait and he
:05:54. > :06:02.worked introduce themselves to the electorate and people would love
:06:02. > :06:08.him. -- he would introduce himself. But they do not. Labour is ahead in
:06:08. > :06:12.the polls. The first, they are five points ahead. There was an
:06:12. > :06:16.interview with Peter Hain, his closest supporter, in which he said
:06:16. > :06:20.on the record that the Labour Party was not in a position to form a
:06:20. > :06:28.majority Government in the next election. That they were fighting
:06:28. > :06:31.for the largest single party. When was the last time we heard a senior
:06:31. > :06:35.member of a political party three years before an election say they
:06:35. > :06:40.cannot win it? What about the shadow members? Are they saying
:06:40. > :06:43.that Ed Miliband cannot ever be Prime Minister? In terms of Ed
:06:43. > :06:47.Miliband's authority within the Shadow Cabinet, to be honest that
:06:47. > :06:53.was week from the beginning, given the tainted mandate that he got in
:06:54. > :06:58.the leadership election. He won the leadership election! Get over it.
:06:58. > :07:03.Well, he won the leadership election but not among his MPs are
:07:03. > :07:10.or the constituents. He won and of the system that there is. I did not
:07:10. > :07:14.say he did not win. I am saying it was a tainted mandate, which it was.
:07:14. > :07:17.What do you think? Certainly some people will not accept that Ed
:07:17. > :07:21.Miliband dared to stand against his brother and they will do anything
:07:21. > :07:25.they can to make life difficult for him. Whether that will be good for
:07:25. > :07:29.the Labour Party in the long run, that they claim to support and want
:07:29. > :07:32.to see in Government, and the Lib Dem and conservative coalition, I
:07:32. > :07:37.don't know. Maybe they will wake up and realise what is going on.
:07:37. > :07:40.not just former supporters of David. Ed Miliband has not enjoyed the
:07:40. > :07:44.support and has not imposed his authority on the Shadow Cabinet.
:07:44. > :07:47.Thank you. Ed Miliband is focusing on youth
:07:47. > :07:51.unemployment this morning. The Labour Party has unveiled a new
:07:51. > :07:55.scheme to get work as young people into jobs. Here is how they say the
:07:55. > :07:59.real jobs guarantee will work. After 12 months of unemployment, or
:07:59. > :08:03.young people aged 18 to 24 will go on a six-month long paid job,
:08:03. > :08:11.preferably in the private sector. This would apply it to 100,000
:08:12. > :08:16.people currently. The Government would pay for -- for wages to the
:08:16. > :08:19.company for 25 hours per week, �4,000 per job. The company would
:08:19. > :08:23.cover the training and development of the young person for a minimum
:08:23. > :08:30.of 10 hours per week, and the money for this would be provided out of
:08:30. > :08:35.the backbone is tax allocation, �600 million currently. -- Bank
:08:35. > :08:41.Bonas tax allocation. Under Labour job is guaranteed paying at least
:08:41. > :08:46.the minimum wage for 16 months with real training. -- for six months.
:08:46. > :08:54.Real work, it real jobs, real prospects for our young people.
:08:55. > :08:58.Let me tell you, let me tell you, if I was the Prime Minister, I
:08:58. > :09:06.would be putting all my energy behind mobilising every single
:09:06. > :09:08.business in my country behind this programme. I would mobilise every
:09:08. > :09:12.single voluntary sector organisation behind this programme.
:09:12. > :09:18.I would never stand by. A Labour Government would get our young
:09:18. > :09:23.people working again. Ed Miliband. Joining me from Coventry is the
:09:23. > :09:27.deputy Labour leader, Harriet Harman. Thank you for coming on the
:09:27. > :09:31.programme. We have been hearing about the real jobs guarantee. You
:09:31. > :09:36.are guaranteeing any young person that has been jobless for a year
:09:36. > :09:39.and paid job. It is the job creation scheme? Absolutely. I
:09:39. > :09:42.think everybody recognises that there is a real problem with the
:09:42. > :09:46.number of young people that are unemployed and cannot get work.
:09:46. > :09:50.They realise it, their parents and grandparents realise that it is the
:09:50. > :09:55.problem and business realises it is a problem. It seems the only people
:09:55. > :09:59.that do not realise that it is the problem is the Government. We are
:09:59. > :10:03.saying that really something should be done about this. Many businesses
:10:03. > :10:07.have full order books but they cannot actually comply and fulfil
:10:07. > :10:11.those orders because the banks are not lending. Actually, therefore,
:10:11. > :10:15.they cannot take people on. It would help business to take people
:10:15. > :10:21.on and provide vital opportunities for young people. It is too
:10:21. > :10:26.dispiriting. You finish call, you go out to make your way in the
:10:26. > :10:33.world and you are told sorry. -- you finish school. But are they
:10:33. > :10:39.real jobs? Is it just a ruse to occupy people for six months? What
:10:39. > :10:41.happens at the end of that period? They are real jobs. As I said, many
:10:42. > :10:45.businesses have full order books but cannot comply with the orders
:10:45. > :10:50.because the banks are not lending. Therefore there is work that people
:10:50. > :10:56.could be doing if employers could afford to employed them. This is
:10:56. > :11:00.helping business and young people. This will help business generate
:11:00. > :11:05.more profits for the Revenue. What the Government is doing with their
:11:05. > :11:09.economic strategy is shrinking the economy back. And we want action by
:11:09. > :11:16.Government, not only to help people but not support the economy through
:11:16. > :11:21.this difficult time. -- but to support the economy. How many jobs
:11:21. > :11:26.will be in the private sector? think most would be. Who has signed
:11:26. > :11:30.up to it? Well, we would get business to sign up to it and we
:11:30. > :11:34.would invite them to sign up to it. If you say to business that their
:11:34. > :11:40.side of the bargain is to provide decent training, but we will play a
:11:40. > :11:44.proper wage, the national minimum wage, for this person, then that is
:11:44. > :11:49.a good opportunity for business. They would not have to be forced
:11:49. > :11:52.into it. I think many would come forward. I think many businesses
:11:52. > :11:56.have a sense of responsibility about this. They don't like the
:11:56. > :11:59.idea that there is a whole generation of young people that
:11:59. > :12:04.will be dispirited and demoralised and will lose their confidence.
:12:04. > :12:08.They will never be able to find their way in the world. OK...
:12:08. > :12:13.don't think business will be reluctant to come forward. But if
:12:13. > :12:16.they are... Harriet, if you do not manage to fill the jobs, and I am
:12:16. > :12:25.sure some businesses will come forward, then in effect the state
:12:25. > :12:31.will be playing for the jobs? The state will be employing them.
:12:31. > :12:35.will be playing? The people, out of the tax, and so there is
:12:35. > :12:39.responsibility that we want to see from those at the top. The bankers
:12:39. > :12:43.bonus tax would finance this. The bankers could well afford it. It
:12:43. > :12:47.should not just be business as usual. Their responsibility would
:12:47. > :12:52.be to pay the tax on the bank as bonuses and that would finance it.
:12:52. > :13:00.It would not come out of any other public services. The bankers bonus
:13:00. > :13:04.tax will rage how much money? -- rose how much money? I know that we
:13:04. > :13:12.have worked out that figure but I will have to get back to you. It
:13:12. > :13:17.would finance all those that have been unemployed the 12 months. It
:13:17. > :13:22.has been costed and it can be raised. What is the cost of the
:13:22. > :13:26.real jobs guarantee scheme? I have not got that figure to hand but I
:13:26. > :13:31.can absolutely assure you that Ed Balls, as our Shadow Chancellor,
:13:31. > :13:35.has sorted it, along with Ed Miliband. That is not an issue.
:13:35. > :13:40.costs are important. I thought I was just explaining to you how it
:13:40. > :13:44.would work. Oh, yes, the costs are important. People have to be
:13:44. > :13:48.reassured that it will raise enough money. At that the money will cover
:13:48. > :13:53.the real jobs guarantee, however much it will cost. I know that it
:13:53. > :13:57.will, I just have not got the figure at my fingertips and I
:13:57. > :14:01.apologise. There is no mystery about it. The other issue is that
:14:01. > :14:06.the bankers bonus tax will be committed to paying for other
:14:06. > :14:11.things, like... No, it has not been committed to other things. Ed Balls
:14:11. > :14:18.said it would pay for 25,000 affordable homes. That will also
:14:18. > :14:22.provide apprenticeships for young people. Are you going to be over
:14:22. > :14:26.committing this money that you think you can raise from bankers
:14:26. > :14:29.bonuses tax which is not certain in terms of how much you will raise
:14:29. > :14:36.and you already committing it to the real jobs guarantee, 25,000
:14:36. > :14:40.affordable homes and what else? are being very careful. I am sorry
:14:40. > :14:47.that I have not got the detailed numbers for you. But they are at
:14:47. > :14:50.hand, just out of reach here. It is a carefully costed programme. The
:14:50. > :14:55.alternative, which is what the Government is doing, is saying that
:14:55. > :14:59.as far as bankers and their bonuses are concerned, it is business as
:14:59. > :15:01.usual and the Government will protest but do nothing. Meanwhile
:15:02. > :15:06.we see young people feeling as though they are being thrown on a
:15:07. > :15:12.scrappy before they have begun. there will be sanctions, would
:15:12. > :15:19.there? Yes, I think they will have to take it. They cannot say they do
:15:19. > :15:25.not want to do a job. They would have to take the job or else there
:15:25. > :15:35.would be sanctioned, yes. But I think the truth is that young
:15:35. > :15:37.The costs of the scheme are important in terms of making
:15:38. > :15:41.spending commitments, and you do not want to be accused of saying we
:15:41. > :15:46.are addicted to state intervention and state paying for jobs real or
:15:46. > :15:49.not. They're going to run into trouble. It's a bit unfair this are
:15:49. > :15:53.far away from the election to expect specific costings. Harriet
:15:53. > :15:58.Harman is not a Treasury spokesman, so you were maybe being a little
:15:58. > :16:04.unkind there. Am I being unfair? It's a slightly novel strategy when
:16:04. > :16:06.you are a party trying to re- establish fiscal credibility to
:16:06. > :16:10.make a major announcement like this and go wanted to anybody want not
:16:10. > :16:14.have the figures. It's particularly damaging because the Tory attack
:16:14. > :16:19.this morning is they spent his bankers' bonus tax several times
:16:19. > :16:24.over. They treated as an unlimited pot of money. Labour have their own
:16:25. > :16:30.costings. The two parties disagree on the numbers. The costings to
:16:30. > :16:33.cover those two schemes. What is interesting is the sanctions. It's
:16:33. > :16:37.a sign of how far the welfare debate has moved, that the Labour
:16:37. > :16:41.Party are now saying, if you won't take this job at the minimum wage,
:16:41. > :16:45.you will use your benefits. they are being paid. That is the
:16:45. > :16:49.difference. And like the work experience programme. Tesco taking
:16:49. > :16:53.all of these people for nothing. But you say psychologically the
:16:53. > :16:58.Labour party... I think Liam Byrne sees this as a shift towards a
:16:58. > :17:01.tougher position on welfare. They are deeply concerned about being
:17:01. > :17:06.continually out plant by the Tories on this issue. This perception that
:17:06. > :17:09.the Labour Party were for people on benefits was extremely damaging to
:17:09. > :17:13.them. That polling shows they cannot win without being seen to be
:17:13. > :17:17.much tougher on shirkers. Lots of Labour supporters feel very
:17:17. > :17:21.strongly about that. They are working very hard, they are seeing
:17:21. > :17:25.their standard of living going down. They believe they are paying for
:17:25. > :17:30.these malingerers. There is an element of hype in that, but it is
:17:30. > :17:34.a real issue. Labour is right to move on to this territory. Will the
:17:34. > :17:38.scheme work? Despite the fact Harriet Harman is saying she is
:17:38. > :17:46.going to get private employers coming in to take these people on.
:17:46. > :17:50.Youth issue - that unemployment is a real issue. Undoubtedly. There is
:17:50. > :17:54.the fear of particularly women, the next generation, are going to have
:17:54. > :17:58.it worse than we have it. That is a real danger. Anything that talks
:17:58. > :18:03.about what Ed Miliband calls the promise of Britain, ensuring that
:18:03. > :18:06.the next generation does as well or better than we have, his
:18:06. > :18:10.potential... Where are these private employers who were
:18:10. > :18:15.desperately in need of these workers? We will have to wait and
:18:15. > :18:21.see who actually signs up to it. Stay with us. Nice to have you on
:18:21. > :18:25.the programme, well done for making it. 50p off not 50p, that is the
:18:25. > :18:28.question. We will finally find out next Wednesday when George Osborne
:18:28. > :18:33.announces his budget. But it seems the decision has already been taken
:18:33. > :18:37.one way or the other, or will be by the end of today. Our political
:18:37. > :18:41.correspondent joins us with more. Is it all going to be signed off,
:18:41. > :18:48.they had the meeting at the very top and they will decide on all
:18:48. > :18:52.those decisions today? What we know is today is the deadline for the
:18:52. > :18:56.Office of budget responsibility's scorecard. Something as important
:18:56. > :18:58.as a tax rate is going to have to be sorted out by the end of today.
:18:58. > :19:02.The Prime Minister and the Chancellor have both been off on
:19:02. > :19:07.that trip to the United States. They are due to have a phone call
:19:07. > :19:13.with the other members of the quad, with Danny Alexander and with Nick
:19:14. > :19:18.Clegg, to try and finalise this. But it's a very difficult issue.
:19:18. > :19:22.The Chancellor is under pressure from both sides. In his own party
:19:22. > :19:25.many are saying it is acting as a disincentive and they should scrap
:19:25. > :19:29.it. The Lib Dems are making it clear that if you are going to
:19:29. > :19:33.scrap this, then they are looking for other taxes on the wealthiest.
:19:33. > :19:37.It is a very difficult issue, but it looks as though they are going
:19:37. > :19:41.to have to reach some sort of conclusion by the end of today.
:19:41. > :19:44.We've had this being played out in public anyway. Everyone putting in
:19:44. > :19:50.their Penny's worth as to what's going to happen. That will continue
:19:50. > :19:53.over the weekend, now it's been nailed down today. That's right.
:19:53. > :19:56.The Prime Minister's spokeswoman today was saying this was a normal
:19:56. > :20:01.part of coalition politics, when you've got two different parties,
:20:01. > :20:05.you have different views on specific issues. Yes, the Liberal
:20:05. > :20:08.Democrats have been very open in saying, well, if you are going to
:20:08. > :20:13.scrap a tax on the highest earners then that has got to be replaced by
:20:14. > :20:18.some sort of other attacks on wealthy, if not a mansion tax,
:20:18. > :20:22.which was there before option, then this idea of making sure that the
:20:22. > :20:25.wealthiest pay a fair share of their earnings. Some sort of
:20:25. > :20:29.clampdown on tax avoidance. I'm sure we will be seen that in get
:20:29. > :20:32.any case. But there's a wider political difficulty here for the
:20:33. > :20:37.government. George Osborne and the Prime Minister keeps saying we are
:20:37. > :20:40.all in this together. There are many people out there on low
:20:40. > :20:44.incomes and those on middle incomes who are about to lose things like
:20:44. > :20:48.their child benefit, he may not take too kindly to be Chancellor
:20:48. > :20:52.who stands up and says, Well, I'm going to cut taxes for people
:20:52. > :20:59.earning over �150,000. It's a difficult issue but it's got to be
:20:59. > :21:03.sorted out today. Should he scrap the 50p top rate of tax? I think
:21:03. > :21:07.you should. It is clearly acting as a disincentive. It is also
:21:07. > :21:12.encouraging people to get to - not get into incredibly difficult
:21:12. > :21:15.situations. It's a great boom industry for accountants. The Ken
:21:15. > :21:20.Livingstone style companies of one person, all that kind of thing.
:21:20. > :21:24.Which is legitimate was Dot yes, perfectly legal and proper. But it
:21:24. > :21:27.causes problems for the Exchequer. The most interesting thing is
:21:27. > :21:31.George Osborne, last week at the Lib Dem Conference, the Lib Dems
:21:31. > :21:34.were saying in private that George Osborne, Nick Clegg and Danny
:21:34. > :21:38.Alexander have come up with multiple ways of scrapping the 50p
:21:38. > :21:41.rate, but the obstacle is the Prime Minister, who is very queasy about
:21:41. > :21:45.the politics of it. That is presumably because you think
:21:45. > :21:47.strategically and politically it's the wrong thing to do. He has two
:21:47. > :21:51.worries. The first is that it underlines the Tory party's
:21:51. > :21:54.reputation as being the party of the rich. The second is that if you
:21:54. > :21:58.do this, it will be the only thing that people notice in the Budget.
:21:58. > :22:02.You can do lots of other stuff for Business and growth but people will
:22:02. > :22:06.only notice the 50p rate decision because it does obsess the media
:22:06. > :22:11.and is so politically symbolic. Would a 45p top rate of tax being
:22:11. > :22:15.reasonable substitute, if that is one of the options being talked
:22:15. > :22:19.about? They think more people would perhaps pay that. Accountants and
:22:19. > :22:21.economists can argue forever about the figures. Some people would say
:22:21. > :22:26.it doesn't take into account the people that leave the country
:22:26. > :22:29.because of these punitive I tax rates. Who knows about the actual
:22:29. > :22:32.rate. It might well be the compromise Osborne comes up with.
:22:32. > :22:36.But in a way, that's a despise nobody because it's still giving
:22:36. > :22:40.the message that the Tories are the party of the rich. It doesn't
:22:40. > :22:45.please the Lib Dems and it has not cut it even up to satisfy the Tory
:22:45. > :22:49.right wingers. He almost can't win on this one. How much of a boost to
:22:49. > :22:53.do you think it will give to David Cameron and George Osborne in terms
:22:53. > :22:59.of Conservative backbench support if he does cut it? It will be
:22:59. > :23:03.massive. The point about the Tory party in coalition is it becomes
:23:03. > :23:07.fractious. Much of the goodwill that David Cameron created with the
:23:07. > :23:10.veto has begun to ebb away. His backbenchers are getting a bit more
:23:10. > :23:13.difficult and a bit more tricky. To do this would be a real sign that
:23:13. > :23:16.this is a government prepared to take the tough but economic the
:23:16. > :23:20.necessary decisions that are on the politically popular. It would send
:23:20. > :23:28.a big symbol out there that this is still a tax-cutting party. As Jack
:23:28. > :23:32.Lee said, the costs would also be high. -- Jackie. Is it still worth
:23:32. > :23:36.it in terms of getting that red meat to his own backbenchers and
:23:36. > :23:39.sacrificing whatever message he is hoping to dispel? There is an
:23:39. > :23:43.element whereby the Conservatives see that they've been losing out
:23:43. > :23:47.recently to the Lib Dems. Talk to almost any Conservative backbencher
:23:47. > :23:51.and Babel said the Lib Dems are winning on this, that and the other.
:23:51. > :23:55.He has to do something to steady the ship. What about things on
:23:55. > :24:00.child benefit? That's another big issue. I don't see much movement on
:24:00. > :24:04.that. Do you not think... I think they will raise the threshold. So
:24:04. > :24:09.you won't lose it if you earn �44,000. They will raise it higher
:24:09. > :24:13.than that. To 60,000, 80,000? still have anomalies that the
:24:13. > :24:17.double or single earner. I think they will raise it up by a bit more
:24:17. > :24:20.than we expect. What about the money that was supposed to be
:24:20. > :24:24.raised by his 50p top rate of tax? There's been a debate as to how
:24:24. > :24:27.much in terms of precise figures they were going to get. There's a
:24:27. > :24:32.report from Revenue and Customs saying how much the tax will raise.
:24:32. > :24:36.It will show that it raises less than it was projected to raise. It
:24:36. > :24:41.was projected to raise a few billion? It will show its rate in
:24:42. > :24:45.the low billions. That will be the justification. The argument will be
:24:45. > :24:48.that the measures we are putting in place, which will be dressed up as
:24:48. > :24:51.some of these measures that Lib Dems have talked about as part of
:24:51. > :24:55.their tight contracts, will ensure that the rich pay more than their
:24:55. > :24:58.current debate a. The attempt will be to say that the anti-avoidance
:24:58. > :25:02.measures they are taking, but things they are clamping down a
:25:02. > :25:05.will raise more than the 50p rate does. It will be interesting to see
:25:06. > :25:08.how far they go along with the Match Attax are not, or whether
:25:09. > :25:14.it's just the tycoon tax. doesn't sound as though that is
:25:14. > :25:16.going to happen. We will find out on Wednesday. We will be either
:25:16. > :25:20.pleasantly surprised to disappointed. There's been a
:25:20. > :25:24.leadership election this week. I hope you didn't miss it. If you did,
:25:24. > :25:28.I can help. Conservative MEPs have elected Richard Ashworth their new
:25:28. > :25:31.leader, after his predecessor, Martin Callanan, was appointed
:25:31. > :25:34.leader of the broader parliamentary group. British Conservative MEPs
:25:34. > :25:38.used to sit in the main centre- right bloc and the European
:25:38. > :25:42.Parliament. But since 2009, they've taken a more eurosceptic stance.
:25:42. > :25:46.Along with allies in a new group called the European Conservatives
:25:46. > :25:53.and reformists. Richard Ashworth has won the leadership after a
:25:53. > :25:56.nail-biting election. The 26 Tory MEPs were split 13-13, between Mr
:25:56. > :26:00.Ashworth and Syed Kamall. Ashworth has a hard act to follow. His
:26:00. > :26:03.predecessor, Martin Callanan, it was a known as an outspoken critic
:26:03. > :26:07.of much of the European project. But it's been suggested Mr Ashworth
:26:07. > :26:11.will take a more moderate line. Mr Martin Callanan opposed the bail-
:26:11. > :26:14.out of Greece and criticised the British government on going soft on
:26:14. > :26:18.EU institutions. He also said the UK should withdraw from the
:26:18. > :26:23.European Court of Human Rights, unless there are major changes.
:26:23. > :26:31.Richard Ashworth is with us now. You won the contest but it wasn't a
:26:31. > :26:34.resounding result, was it? We've always got a range of
:26:34. > :26:39.interests and a range of views in the party will stop this is all
:26:39. > :26:47.part of the democratic process. I am delighted to have one. It's been
:26:47. > :26:50.an open fight. Let's get it back to business and more of the same.
:26:50. > :26:55.sounds like it might be quite difficult because it was quite a
:26:55. > :26:59.tight contest. Would you agree that the group is pretty well split?
:26:59. > :27:04.We have a range of opinions, that's right and proper and healthy. But
:27:04. > :27:07.the one thing that Martin Callanan, my predecessor, particularly it
:27:07. > :27:11.took as a united group of people, working together to achieve a
:27:12. > :27:16.common goal. I don't think we are split. I think my job is to keep
:27:16. > :27:19.the whole group focused on the project which we have a head, and
:27:19. > :27:24.there's an awful lot to be achieved. I'm looking forward to getting down
:27:24. > :27:28.to business with them. One of the issues, people will remember the
:27:28. > :27:35.departure from the mainstream right of centre bloc, the EPP, because it
:27:35. > :27:37.was too federalist. Tory MPs joined the European Conservatives and
:27:37. > :27:42.reformists group. Are you minded to look at this issue again, talk to
:27:42. > :27:49.David Cameron about it? I'm not. Rather than being so simple as
:27:49. > :27:53.saying it is too federalist, which it is incidentally. We believe in
:27:53. > :27:57.reform of the European Union. We think there are massive global
:27:57. > :28:01.challenges with which we confront - - with which we are confronted. The
:28:01. > :28:04.world order is changing with the emergence of Far Eastern economies,
:28:04. > :28:08.which will challenge us in terms of competitiveness. Challenging in
:28:08. > :28:11.terms of energy secured, challenging in terms of food
:28:12. > :28:16.security. These are the issues the European Union should be focusing
:28:16. > :28:20.its fire on. Not the distractions we have now. Do you feel you are in
:28:20. > :28:24.the right position and group to do that? That is what David Cameron
:28:24. > :28:26.set the group up to do. That's the consistent message that both the
:28:26. > :28:33.British Conservative Start It All Over Again are you supportive of
:28:33. > :28:37.that as well? When David Cameron walked out of negotiations before
:28:37. > :28:42.Christmas over the fiscal contract, critics said it was because Tories
:28:42. > :28:44.went in the meetings in the main centre-right bloc with President
:28:45. > :28:49.Sarkozy and Angela Merkel, that these things went ironed out
:28:49. > :28:55.beforehand. Do you have some sympathy with that? No. Absolutely
:28:55. > :29:00.don't. By having our own distinct group now, we have our own voice.
:29:00. > :29:04.If you were a member of the EPP, the large centre-right Conservative
:29:04. > :29:08.group, it would be their appointed speaker who spoke, not us. No, we
:29:08. > :29:18.have our own voice and platform right now. We are articulating that
:29:18. > :29:18.message. You are part of this new group and a happy to be part of it.
:29:18. > :29:20.It has a sister organisation of Conservatives and reformists
:29:20. > :29:25.throughout Europe called the alliance of European Conservatives
:29:25. > :29:31.and reformists. You are not in that, are you? Personally or the group?
:29:31. > :29:34.First illegal stop no. Why not? Because I have a split loyalty.
:29:34. > :29:39.First and foremost, I'm a member of the budget committee of the
:29:39. > :29:44.European Union. I have a very strict view of life, there are
:29:44. > :29:49.three redline issues. One, the size of the European budget must be
:29:49. > :29:53.frozen. Any increase will be below the inflation level. It's a real-
:29:53. > :29:58.terms reduction in the European Union budget. Two, an absolute
:29:58. > :30:03.freeze on the UK net contribution. Three, the UK rebate is a red line
:30:03. > :30:06.issue. If I'm going to be particularly robust on that, I have
:30:06. > :30:10.to be a little bit hard on ourselves, when we look at the
:30:10. > :30:15.expenditure... But you can do that as an individual signed up to that
:30:15. > :30:18.group. You can, but the point that I'm making is if I want to go into
:30:18. > :30:23.the budget committee and say I want a reduction in the level of
:30:23. > :30:27.European expenditure, that means as, as well as everybody else in Europe.
:30:27. > :30:31.The parliamentary groups expenditure has been going up and
:30:31. > :30:34.up. I've got a point to make. The members of the European Parliament,
:30:34. > :30:39.look, economies and efficiency start with you. Set an example for
:30:39. > :30:44.everybody else. Most of your colleagues are signed up to it
:30:44. > :30:48.individually. I don't quite understand why it precludes you in
:30:48. > :30:53.that way. The Conservative Party is signed up to it. The chairman has
:30:53. > :31:03.spoken to it. Now your leader, isn't there an expectation that you
:31:03. > :31:03.
:31:03. > :31:07.No doubt, but not before I have spoken to the party chairman about
:31:07. > :31:11.being consistent in our message. We want a reduction in European
:31:11. > :31:15.expenditure, and that means us as well as everybody else. Are you
:31:15. > :31:23.less euro-sceptic than the rest of the grid? I don't like being
:31:23. > :31:27.pigeon-holed at all. I take a hard- nosed view on the economy and
:31:27. > :31:37.agriculture because those are my jobs. Please don't pigeonhole me.
:31:37. > :31:43.Are you less euro-sceptic than York predecessor? I doubt it. You say
:31:43. > :31:47.you're your own man. Are you with people calling for withdrawal from
:31:47. > :31:50.the European Court of Human Rights? Let's be clear that the European
:31:51. > :31:55.Court of Human Rights is nothing to do with the EU. They are entirely
:31:55. > :31:59.different. The European Court of Human Rights came in 1948 and they
:31:59. > :32:09.did an honourable job. There are for th member nations. Actually it
:32:09. > :32:10.
:32:10. > :32:13.is not fit for purpose now. -- 48 member nations. The treatment of
:32:13. > :32:18.minorities was an acceptable when it was created but today made his
:32:18. > :32:28.murder link in national law, the national conferences, overriding
:32:28. > :32:32.our own courts and that is not acceptable. -- today it is
:32:32. > :32:36.Madeleine in national law. Has he got a difficult job? I don't envy
:32:36. > :32:41.him. There is not a split between pro-Europeans and anti-Europeans.
:32:42. > :32:50.It is about how euro-sceptic you are. This debate was split between
:32:50. > :32:54.13-13. I think if your opponent had won he would have been happy to be
:32:54. > :32:57.pigeon-holed as a euro-sceptic. There is this divide in the Tory
:32:57. > :33:03.party over that. It will be interesting to watch over next
:33:04. > :33:07.couple of years. There is a big prize at stake. What will the Tory
:33:07. > :33:16.manifesto in 2015 say about the European Union? The coalition but
:33:16. > :33:20.certain -- puts certain limitations on what we can say about the
:33:20. > :33:27.European Union. I think there will be a big fight. That is not very
:33:27. > :33:30.generous towards David Cameron. We have moved on. But have you? The
:33:30. > :33:33.split shows something quite different. The message we are
:33:33. > :33:37.putting in council and in the European Parliament is that Europe
:33:37. > :33:41.has got to be relevant to the future. You have got to start
:33:41. > :33:45.addressing the really big issues that affect the people of Europe.
:33:45. > :33:49.There are 23 million people out of work in Europe today and stagnant
:33:49. > :33:55.economies. Let's focus on that and stop banging on about the
:33:55. > :33:58.distractions that we have. Start reducing red tape, encourage small
:33:58. > :34:03.businesses to flourish. That is what we should be doing and that is
:34:03. > :34:08.our message. That is why I think it is wrong to pigeonhole us as euro-
:34:08. > :34:11.sceptics. The trouble is, as James has said, you say you are your own
:34:11. > :34:17.man, but the Tory party at Westminster, which is what voters
:34:17. > :34:22.here are interested in, is very split. It is more euro-sceptic.
:34:22. > :34:24.is a question of how euro-sceptic you are. The us. They are not
:34:25. > :34:33.interested in reforming the institution. They are interested in
:34:33. > :34:38.these basic questions of being in or out. Are you sad to see Roger
:34:38. > :34:42.from the UK Independence Party go? Roger is a man of certain dues and
:34:42. > :34:47.if he feels that his political home is with the UK Independence Party,
:34:47. > :34:52.then I wish him well. I never have a party with people's political
:34:52. > :34:57.views, but I do have a problem with their behaviour. That is my opinion
:34:57. > :35:01.from now on. I do not discriminate against people but have an extreme-
:35:01. > :35:04.right or left wing view, that is right and proper and healthy. But
:35:04. > :35:10.at the end of the day we can only have one leadership and one
:35:10. > :35:14.discipline. Do you accept that if Roger had not gone to the UK
:35:14. > :35:18.Independence Party then you would not have won the election? I cannot
:35:18. > :35:24.possibly speculate on that. But it is probably true, with the figures
:35:24. > :35:27.being so tight. I really could not command. OK, thank you very much.
:35:27. > :35:32.If the post-war history of the relationship between Conservatives
:35:32. > :35:36.and the unions was strained, it was in the 1980s that it broke out into
:35:36. > :35:42.open warfare. The miners' strike of 1984 continues to resonate 30 years
:35:42. > :35:46.later. Is it time for the Tories and trade unions to move on? We
:35:46. > :35:56.will talk to the Tory MP that thinks it is time. First we
:35:56. > :36:03.
:36:03. > :36:09.# Nobody told me there would be days like these.
:36:09. > :36:15.# Nobody told me there would be days like these.
:36:15. > :36:19.The miners' strike in 1984 lasted one year. It was a watershed in
:36:19. > :36:24.British politics. For Margaret Thatcher, it was unfinished
:36:24. > :36:29.business from a decade earlier. It was every bit an idealistic
:36:29. > :36:36.political struggle between left and right, as it was about management
:36:36. > :36:43.first is the workers. This is Coventry, and this was once the
:36:43. > :36:47.jewel in British Coal's crown. It is still operational today, just. A
:36:47. > :36:55.Labour MP in the 1980s recalls all too well that it was not only the
:36:55. > :37:00.miners that were beaten. One of the legacies of the miners' defeat was
:37:00. > :37:07.that you could not challenge the Government. The poll tax battle
:37:07. > :37:17.he's to that of because the ordinary people showed that you
:37:17. > :37:17.
:37:17. > :37:20.could challenge the Government. They had to accept that Margaret
:37:20. > :37:24.Thatcher was right about many things, but would that have
:37:24. > :37:27.happened if she had lost the miners' strike? The victory of the
:37:27. > :37:32.Tories over the miners left the impression that nobody else could
:37:32. > :37:35.challenge the Public enemy, the leadership of the pro-market
:37:35. > :37:38.policies. That affected the Labour Party and it was one of the reasons
:37:38. > :37:42.why I left the Labour Party in the 1990s because of the changes that
:37:43. > :37:46.took place. That was absolutely the pay-off for Margaret Thatcher. It
:37:46. > :37:50.also meant there was a generation in some parts of Britain that has
:37:50. > :37:55.never been able to vote Conservative since. That is a
:37:55. > :37:59.problem for today's Tories. First because of energy policy. The
:37:59. > :38:04.strike and subsequent privatisation of the coal industry all but
:38:04. > :38:08.destroyed deep mining in Britain. It was this failure of an overall
:38:08. > :38:14.energy strategy that left the miners' and the pits marooned. And
:38:14. > :38:19.yet we have these fast coal reserves and we are only seeing now,
:38:19. > :38:23.with the possibility of developing the gas and the oil from shale, a
:38:23. > :38:29.new opportunity opening up. Just think how well Britain would be
:38:29. > :38:32.placed to develop something like shale and shale gas with clean coal
:38:32. > :38:39.if only we had kept all of our knowledge about deep mining in
:38:39. > :38:43.Britain. # Nobody told me there would be
:38:43. > :38:49.days like these. Today politics is more centrist,
:38:49. > :38:52.more consensual. Should David Cameron be reaching out to our
:38:52. > :38:55.seven million-strong trade unions, rather than letting them remember
:38:55. > :39:01.how much are a Conservative Government used to hurt back in the
:39:01. > :39:05.day? Robert Halfon, the Conservative MP
:39:05. > :39:10.from Harlow, and Karen Jennings, the assistant general secretary of
:39:10. > :39:13.Unison, join us. Welcome to the programme. Robert, Margaret
:39:13. > :39:17.Thatcher was committed to breaking up the unions. She wanted to break
:39:17. > :39:21.the power and the backbone of the unions. Did you support that?
:39:21. > :39:26.have to make the distinction. She was there to stop union extremism
:39:26. > :39:34.but actually what she did, there were 270 branches of trade
:39:34. > :39:38.unionists around the country when she was leader. It was one of the
:39:38. > :39:43.first organisations that she ever joined, Conservative trade unions.
:39:43. > :39:47.But ideologically it was not just dealing with the trade unions. It
:39:47. > :39:51.went broader than that, didn't it? The print unions in Wapping, it was
:39:51. > :39:55.about reducing power of trade unions generally. My grip that are
:39:55. > :40:01.always said we should use legislation to assist trade
:40:01. > :40:05.unionism. -- Margaret Thatcher always said. She was also trying to
:40:05. > :40:08.deal with extremism in the 1980s. Are you saying that she was
:40:09. > :40:13.misunderstood? You have to look at everything that she did and not
:40:13. > :40:18.just part of it. Why did she picked this fight with the miners? Was it
:40:18. > :40:21.just about extremism? Most people would accept that Arthur Scargill
:40:21. > :40:26.was fairly hard line and the unions had a significant amount of power
:40:26. > :40:29.at that time. What I am arguing in my paper is that we need a new
:40:29. > :40:35.relationship with the trade unions and we need to distinguish between
:40:35. > :40:39.the members on the ground and the union militants. What do you say to
:40:39. > :40:43.that distinction in terms of Margaret Thatcher's dealings with
:40:43. > :40:46.the miners and Arthur Scargill? Well, I was a nurse at that time
:40:46. > :40:50.and it was very difficult. The draconian legislation that came in
:40:50. > :40:57.on the back of Margaret Thatcher and John Major was hostile,
:40:57. > :41:01.actually hostile to trade unions. I don't share the same vision of
:41:01. > :41:05.Margaret Thatcher's relationship with the trade unions. Has it have
:41:05. > :41:09.irreparably damaged relations with unions, that memory of it? Even
:41:09. > :41:13.though it was a long time ago and one could arguably say it needed to
:41:13. > :41:17.be done in terms of dealing with militants. Has it irreparably
:41:17. > :41:22.damage relationships with the Government? Between the Tories and
:41:22. > :41:26.the unions, I mean. A think there is a lack of trust between the two.
:41:26. > :41:30.I suggest that is what you are trying to repair now, with the
:41:30. > :41:35.direction of travel of the writings that you have done. The Tories are
:41:35. > :41:38.back in Government. As a trade union we need to be talking to the
:41:38. > :41:43.Tories about what we can do for our members and how we can progress
:41:43. > :41:47.some of the social inequalities but still exist. You do want to build
:41:48. > :41:53.bridges. Robert, you would like to build those bridges because you
:41:53. > :41:59.have to, they are in Government. Yes, we have to work with this
:42:00. > :42:04.administration, with whoever is in Government. Even when the Labour
:42:04. > :42:08.party was in Government, we had our differences, but of course we
:42:08. > :42:15.believe that Labour holds the same values and printable us that we do,
:42:15. > :42:21.where is the Tory party, I think, has different values. -- values and
:42:21. > :42:25.principles. How to combat that image? You could argue that
:42:25. > :42:30.communities that suffered in the 1980s are not going to forgive and
:42:30. > :42:34.forget and that issue of trust is very important. 39% of your union
:42:34. > :42:38.members voted Conservative according to opinion polls. It
:42:38. > :42:42.shows that one-third of trade union members voted Conservative. My
:42:42. > :42:46.argument is that unions are community-minded and they get
:42:46. > :42:48.involved in the Big Society, but they also capitalist institutions
:42:48. > :42:54.and conservative in many ways because they get lots of
:42:54. > :43:02.Conservative support. Is it one of the problems that the rhetoric that
:43:02. > :43:07.we hear from the Conservatives leadership is union-bashing? --
:43:07. > :43:10.isn't one of the problems? That rhetoric is still there. I think
:43:10. > :43:14.there is a feeling on both sides that they are opposite side of the
:43:14. > :43:18.political divide, them and us. That is probably a problem for both
:43:18. > :43:22.sides. I am not suggesting we return to beer and sandwiches at
:43:22. > :43:26.Number 10. We do need to talk. You are underestimating what Margaret
:43:26. > :43:31.Thatcher did. She fundamentally changed the unions, they are much
:43:31. > :43:33.less powerful and union membership has gone down. She really destroyed
:43:33. > :43:39.the powerful unions and I think there is a different relationship
:43:39. > :43:43.to be built but it needs to be different in tone. Do not have to
:43:43. > :43:48.choose sides? When it comes to it, there have been strikes over
:43:48. > :43:52.pensions. If more action is taken by unions, you have to decide if
:43:52. > :43:56.you support the Government or the unions. Of course but we need to
:43:56. > :44:00.make a big distinction between union militants and the vast
:44:00. > :44:05.majority of millions of moderate trade union members, as many of
:44:05. > :44:13.them at work in all kinds of organisations... We forget that the
:44:13. > :44:16.numbers are there. Exactly. Your trade union advertises tax refunds.
:44:16. > :44:21.There are something like 3 million union members with private health
:44:21. > :44:25.insurance. 1 million trade union members went on strike. Actually
:44:25. > :44:30.most trade union members of very moderate people. Yes, but this is
:44:30. > :44:36.also a problem for Tories in the North. If they are going to build
:44:36. > :44:45.relationships with trade-union in the North, then that what rebuild
:44:45. > :44:51.issues with Conservative politics in the North. Yes, the miners'
:44:51. > :44:56.strike is still one of the major barriers to a Tory break through in
:44:56. > :45:04.the North. There is comfort is very interesting. But on public sector
:45:04. > :45:09.pensions, it will polarise relationships between the Tory
:45:09. > :45:15.party and the unions, I think. The Tory party will so that not many
:45:15. > :45:19.people voted to strike, and they will raise the threshold. -- will
:45:19. > :45:23.say that. There have always been Tories that recognise the value of
:45:23. > :45:26.trade unions. We talk about hawks and doves within the Tory party.
:45:26. > :45:30.Clearly we need to have a relationship and we need to
:45:30. > :45:34.negotiate on pay terms and conditions. In many ways we want to
:45:34. > :45:41.have partnerships. But that requires trust, confidence and
:45:41. > :45:45.respect. And all the while you have got Tories saying that taxpayers
:45:45. > :45:49.waste money on trade unions. We need a healthy relationship that
:45:49. > :45:51.respect of that trade unions have a role to play for their members,
:45:51. > :46:01.including those that fit for the Tory party and Labour, because that
:46:01. > :46:05.
:46:05. > :46:09.is what we are there to do. -- a At the end of the debate, the House
:46:09. > :46:15.of Commons Commission decided to shelve the plan. Democracy in
:46:15. > :46:24.action - At last! The MP behind the motion opposing the new charges was
:46:24. > :46:28.Robert Helpmann. We will ask him Those who support the charges of
:46:28. > :46:33.you that Big Ben is not part of our democracy, simply an adornment, a
:46:33. > :46:38.luxury. I would say that this is patently not true. Big Ben is not
:46:38. > :46:44.only the most recognisable British icon in the world, but also the
:46:45. > :46:47.most recognisably parliamentary icon. We should not for a second
:46:47. > :46:51.interfere with the rights of our constituents to come and see how
:46:51. > :46:55.the democratic process works. That should be an absolute red line. I
:46:55. > :46:58.know both sides of the House would not allow that to ever be
:46:58. > :47:03.compromised. But I say to the house again, if we are to be taken
:47:03. > :47:06.seriously, if we are to show to the public that we mean what we say
:47:06. > :47:11.about the need for fiscal responsibility, sometimes that has
:47:11. > :47:17.to begin at home. I visited the school recently in my constituency
:47:18. > :47:23.and it was year three and you four. A teacher asked the pupils to
:47:24. > :47:30.prepare questions for me and to draw pictures about what they
:47:30. > :47:36.thought my job as an MP was. Almost every single picture contained Big
:47:36. > :47:42.Ben. Almost all the pupils thought I worked in Big Ben. I believe that
:47:42. > :47:47.this charge will carry on to schoolchildren. It is a curiosity.
:47:47. > :47:52.It is something of interest to do. It is a delight and a pleasure. But
:47:52. > :47:59.it is not at the heart of how we scrutinise the government or how we
:47:59. > :48:05.serve our constituents. The country needs to make savings. A charge of
:48:05. > :48:08.�15 on 9000 people a year who want to see a clockwork machine seems to
:48:08. > :48:13.me not unreasonable. I have listened very carefully to this
:48:13. > :48:18.debate. I have talked to those commissioners present. We have
:48:18. > :48:22.agreed that were the Honourable Gentleman to accept the amendment I
:48:22. > :48:30.have proposed, the commission would ensure there was no charge for the
:48:30. > :48:36.clock tower during the course of As well as Robert Halfon, we are
:48:36. > :48:43.joined by one of the MPs featured their. Thomas Docherty joins us
:48:43. > :48:47.from Edinburgh. You must be very happy with the outcome. The yes, I
:48:47. > :48:50.thought this action was completely wrong. Today, I met 15 kids from
:48:50. > :48:55.the Prince's Trust and took them to the clock tower. They would have
:48:55. > :49:00.had to pay �15 a head if I'd taken them there. But unaffordable at �15.
:49:00. > :49:03.Would it have been affordable at a slightly lower level? I thought the
:49:03. > :49:08.principle was wrong. I do not think people should be charged for going
:49:08. > :49:11.round the House of Commons. We pay forehead already through our taxes.
:49:11. > :49:15.You obviously disappointed. We are in a democracy, we saw that
:49:15. > :49:19.yesterday. We have to move forward. What I thought was quite
:49:19. > :49:24.astonishing about the debate was that some members, not Robert but
:49:24. > :49:29.some of his colleagues, seemed to me quite introducing this charge on
:49:29. > :49:35.less than 1% of those who visit the House of Commons, with some have
:49:35. > :49:38.put in a shroud over Big Ben. The hard reality is we have to make
:49:38. > :49:40.multi- million pounds savings. We didn't hear coherent alternatives
:49:40. > :49:45.through some of the Roberts colleagues yesterday about how we
:49:45. > :49:50.would do that. We will get to the coherent or incoherent alternatives,
:49:50. > :49:54.whichever way you want to put it. But people have equated it with
:49:54. > :49:58.saying this is the cradle of democracy so it should be free to
:49:58. > :50:04.go into all parts of the building. Do you not see any link or logic in
:50:04. > :50:09.that? I see a link. I don't think it's a compelling argument. As
:50:09. > :50:14.Jacob Rees-Mogg said, he was not a natural bedfellow of myself on
:50:14. > :50:22.these issues, this is not part of our democratic process. It is a
:50:22. > :50:27.timepiece. A very famous timepiece that is part of the building. We
:50:27. > :50:32.were talking about less than 1% of visitors. They visit the clock
:50:32. > :50:38.tower. You worry family are at -- a family in four in your constituent
:50:38. > :50:42.you would have to pay �60. Let's be clear on this one. If you went
:50:42. > :50:46.across the road to Westminster Abbey, you pay �28 for an adult and
:50:46. > :50:50.about �15 for a child. If you go to Buckingham Palace, where we
:50:50. > :50:54.definitely pay for that, you have to pay for those things. The other
:50:54. > :50:59.thing that is frustrating is the only people who get to sponsor the
:50:59. > :51:05.towers of the MPs. This was quite bluntly a perk for some of our
:51:05. > :51:09.colleagues. Not Robert, but some of his colleagues saw this as a perk.
:51:09. > :51:13.In the Times we are living in, cuts have to be made. That seems like
:51:13. > :51:16.quite a sensible one to make. You are still allowed to going to the
:51:16. > :51:20.Houses of Parliament for free. Why not charge their than instead
:51:20. > :51:24.bringing it in somewhere else? think it was an easy target to hit
:51:24. > :51:29.the British public. I identified that �469,000 worth of savings
:51:29. > :51:35.could be made. The Commons food bill, they could start by shutting
:51:35. > :51:38.the dining rooms which aren't used on certain days. The Commons Spence
:51:38. > :51:41.�65,000 a year on press cuttings. It could reduce that. We could
:51:41. > :51:46.slightly cut the budget on overseas trips. If you added up, there's
:51:46. > :51:50.loads of money that can be saved in other areas. But to hit the British
:51:50. > :51:55.public and try to discourage people from seeing our ancient Icon...
:51:55. > :52:00.many people go up? I don't know the full total but I've had 60 from my
:52:00. > :52:04.own constituency and 15 in today. People love it. We pay forehead
:52:04. > :52:07.already through our taxes. Although people do pay to see lots of other
:52:07. > :52:11.icons. We'd just be putting it on a level playing field with all sorts
:52:11. > :52:15.of other icons. This is different. It's our democracy and Parliament.
:52:15. > :52:20.People should have a right to go round it until -- free of charge.
:52:20. > :52:23.Would you like to see the debate reopened? I think we need to have a
:52:24. > :52:28.much bigger debate. Robert is right to say we need to look at how we
:52:28. > :52:33.spend money. I am delighted Robert will no longer be eating in the
:52:33. > :52:38.House of Commons. I am delighted he is making that of a today. More
:52:38. > :52:44.seriously, we have a proposal going into the commission in less than a
:52:44. > :52:48.fortnight. It says if we can take �2 million of print savings by
:52:48. > :52:53.giving MPs iPads and senior staff, that would be fantastic. That is
:52:53. > :53:03.the kind of thing we need to be going forward. It is time to catch
:53:03. > :53:04.
:53:04. > :53:08.up with what has been happening in MP Eric Joyce was given a 12 month
:53:08. > :53:12.community sentence, fined �3,000 and banned from going into a pub
:53:12. > :53:16.for three months, after pleading guilty to four charges of assault.
:53:16. > :53:20.David Cameron left the cares of domestic politics at home, by
:53:20. > :53:24.jetting off to America. He enjoyed lavish hospitality and a trip on
:53:24. > :53:27.Air Force One to a basketball match. Not to mention a hot dog and a can
:53:27. > :53:31.of Coke. With the leader away, it was up to Nick Clegg and Harriet
:53:31. > :53:35.Harman to take the reins at Prime Minister's Questions. Veteran
:53:35. > :53:41.Labour MP Dennis Skinner was under no mood to give the PM stand in an
:53:41. > :53:46.easy ride. I will give him a chance to separate him from the ranks of
:53:46. > :53:51.Tories behind him. Come on! Miliband and Ed Balls set out more
:53:51. > :53:56.details of Labour's economic policy. They say the coalition has actually
:53:56. > :54:00.cut taxes for high earners. And the 140 id macro Archbishop of
:54:00. > :54:10.Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, announced he would stand down to
:54:10. > :54:12.
:54:12. > :54:15.As we've seen, David Cameron's visit to the US has been one of the
:54:15. > :54:23.dominant stories of the week. But how does it play politically for Mr
:54:23. > :54:27.Cameron, and will it do anything for Barack Obama's chance for re-
:54:27. > :54:35.election? Has it done anything, has it been well covered in the States?
:54:35. > :54:38.Our people thinking, hey, Iraq - Matt Barrett a bomber has been
:54:39. > :54:44.cavorting with politicians and it will help him? It has been going
:54:44. > :54:47.well. In terms of the significance of this, it's really focused on the
:54:47. > :54:51.state to state relationship between the US and UK. That is what that is
:54:51. > :54:55.it is all about and that's what the focus needs to be in a situation
:54:55. > :54:59.like this. Do voters pay any attention in the States to this
:54:59. > :55:03.sort of thing? People who are going to vote will pay attention to this
:55:03. > :55:09.and any number of things. The state of Ohio, where the leaders visited
:55:09. > :55:13.on Tuesday, my home town in fact. They went to watch basketball my
:55:13. > :55:18.home town. I told my friends to make sure they mowed the lawn so!
:55:18. > :55:22.David Cameron doesn't understand basketball. There were big signs of
:55:22. > :55:28.saying, welcome, Prime Minister Cameron. He made a big fuss of
:55:28. > :55:33.David Cameron. Even we were surprised by how lavish it all was.
:55:33. > :55:37.What was the intention, apart from just being very hospitable?
:55:37. > :55:41.intention is to solidify and re emphasised the special relationship
:55:41. > :55:48.between the two countries. It's a relationship that is very old and
:55:48. > :55:52.works very well, a common culture, common heritage. I think it was a
:55:52. > :55:54.classic stitch-up. Barack Obama gets to inoculate himself against
:55:55. > :55:58.the charge that republicans are going to throw Wetton, that he some
:55:58. > :56:02.sort of left-wing radical. How can I be a left-wing radical Wenham
:56:02. > :56:06.such good friends with an English Conservative, centre-right Prime
:56:06. > :56:09.Minister. David Cameron gets to emphasise the stature gap of Ed
:56:09. > :56:13.Miliband. Can you imagine him there? Always difficult for a
:56:13. > :56:16.leader of the opposition in those circumstances. David Cameron get to
:56:17. > :56:20.portray himself as someone who is above party. I am on the world
:56:20. > :56:23.stage, I might be a Tory but I've got a good democrat friend here.
:56:24. > :56:27.They both did it to do over their opponents and it worked brilliantly.
:56:27. > :56:31.It's slightly more than that for Cameron. He is embarrassed by a lot
:56:31. > :56:37.of the Tea Party wing of the Republicans. He didn't meet any of
:56:37. > :56:40.them. Yes, he made a clear statement. Republicans, know.
:56:40. > :56:43.think it David Cameron decided he was going to meet even the
:56:43. > :56:48.Republican Speaker of the house, I don't think he would have got the
:56:48. > :56:51.full on treatment that he did from the White House. He is pretty well
:56:51. > :56:56.endorse, Barack Obama. You get the feeling David Cameron is banking on
:56:56. > :56:59.the fact is going to get the second term. Let's roll the clock back in
:56:59. > :57:03.terms of the comment about meeting the Speaker of the house. The US
:57:03. > :57:06.political system, it's not the role of the House of Representatives or
:57:06. > :57:10.the Senate to engage in international diplomacy. And our
:57:10. > :57:13.constitution, that's the role of the President of the United States.
:57:13. > :57:17.Giving some lavish entertainment to one of our most important allies in
:57:17. > :57:20.the world is his job. That's what he does for a living and I think he
:57:20. > :57:24.did it well. Although you wonder behind the scenes of the serious
:57:24. > :57:27.talks on Afghanistan and Iran. Some jokes are saying, I've lavished all
:57:27. > :57:31.this a new and we are pulling out of Afghanistan in the next six
:57:31. > :57:35.months, you'd better do the same. I'm sure there are any number of
:57:35. > :57:39.closed-door talks that we won't be pretty to, but everything we saw
:57:39. > :57:45.was very positive. Rowan Williams stepping down, will David Cameron
:57:45. > :57:51.be pleased? I think you'll be delighted. Replacement? Maybe the
:57:51. > :57:56.Archbishop of York. I think the Archbishop of York. The were you
:57:56. > :58:03.surprised? No, I've been for some time... It was said a few weeks ago
:58:03. > :58:09.that Rowan Williams was about to go. A terms of picking an ally, is it a
:58:09. > :58:12.dangerous position anyway? archbishop has to be his own man.
:58:12. > :58:17.The politics of this will play out. The gay marriage thing is going to
:58:17. > :58:21.be interesting. Whoever is the successor, it will put them in the
:58:21. > :58:24.spotlight on that issue. They are going to press ahead with that?
:58:24. > :58:28.think they are going to. They are completely relaxed about the
:58:28. > :58:32.opposition of the Church. They will try and keep the debate respect for,
:58:32. > :58:37.but I think they view this as a classic part of modernisation.
:58:37. > :58:41.will be following every step of the way in this campaign. That is all
:58:41. > :58:46.for today. The news is starting on BBC One now. Thank you to all of my