:00:46. > :00:51.Afternoon all. When the Government calls on us all to work harder, let
:00:51. > :00:56.me be the first to respond, as Eric Pickles told me yesterday on the
:00:56. > :01:01.Sunday politics, "You've got to work harder." Here I am working an
:01:01. > :01:05.extra Monday shift, for love, for nothing, except for the dili
:01:05. > :01:11.politics for the love of it N Greece they are working overtime
:01:11. > :01:17.trying to get together a coalition Government. Here at home, public
:01:17. > :01:21.sector workers are on the war path, nurses, doctors, the police, all
:01:21. > :01:25.rejecting calls to tighten their belts. Speaking of war paths the
:01:25. > :01:30.Ministry of Defence is gearing up to say it has found a way of
:01:30. > :01:36.disappearing a giant black hole in its long-term procurement budget.
:01:36. > :01:40.Will it be fit for purpose? It is Alastair Campbell's turn in front
:01:40. > :01:46.of Lord Leveson this afternoon. Perhaps we will find out how Tony
:01:46. > :01:50.Blair signs off his texts. Stay tuned for the big news. Well, that
:01:50. > :01:56.in the next half an hour of solo public service broadcasting. If you
:01:56. > :02:03.have any thoughts or comments on anything, then you can keep them to
:02:03. > :02:10.yourself... No, sorry you can Tweet using the hashtag tag. Now with us
:02:10. > :02:13.for the ride is Michael Howard. Welcome. Thank you.
:02:13. > :02:17.But first, my own self-less contribution of getting rid of the
:02:17. > :02:22.deficit. When I read William Hague's suggestions that business
:02:22. > :02:28.leaders stop complaining and work a wee bit harder then I took it to
:02:28. > :02:32.hard. Eric Pickles took it to heart, by telling me the same thing to my
:02:32. > :02:36.face yesterday. I think we should all work harder. I should work
:02:37. > :02:41.harder. You should work harder. don't have an extra hour in the day.
:02:41. > :02:44.You are doing Sundays. So you are doing your bit. What evidence do
:02:45. > :02:48.you have that these people are not working very hard? I think the
:02:48. > :02:54.point that William is making and it is a very reasonable one and it
:02:54. > :02:58.comes back to the earlier point is, Government cannot create Government.
:02:58. > :03:05.It can create the conditions, but we'll only be able to do this if we
:03:05. > :03:09.all work harder. Well, what can I do? Roll up my sleeves for some
:03:09. > :03:15.extra hard work. Let's talk about this with Michael Howard. Just how
:03:15. > :03:19.does this work - politicians, Cabinet ministers lecturing us to
:03:19. > :03:25.work harder? You've had a great compliment from Eric Pickles who
:03:25. > :03:29.said you are doing your bit. So you can bask in that reflected glory.
:03:29. > :03:33.And the - it is a point of Government line - it's not the best
:03:33. > :03:38.to come up with. It would be very odd if somebody said we don't need
:03:38. > :03:42.to work as hard as we are working, we should not work harder. People
:03:42. > :03:45.are working harder. We work longer hours than our European neighbours.
:03:45. > :03:50.People are working hard from chief executives of big companies to
:03:50. > :03:56.nurses on the ward. Ifing harder is the answer we'd -- if working
:03:57. > :04:01.harder is the answer we'd have a boom economy. I travel abroad a
:04:01. > :04:06.fair bit and it is very frustrating when you go to companies in
:04:06. > :04:11.different parts of the world and you - countries in different parts
:04:11. > :04:16.of the world, and you find German companies there exporting. Italian
:04:16. > :04:21.companies there exporting. And you very often don't find as many
:04:21. > :04:25.British companies there exporting as you would like. I think there is
:04:25. > :04:29.something in our business culture - of course there are many, many
:04:29. > :04:34.great exceptions to this observation - but there is
:04:34. > :04:38.something in our business culture which has made many of our
:04:38. > :04:41.businesses less adventurous and perhaps less ambitious in terms of
:04:41. > :04:45.getting into these export markets and we have to export more. That is
:04:45. > :04:51.one of the ways in which we'll come out of the economic mess we're
:04:51. > :04:56.still in. But in terms of per capita, we export more per capita
:04:56. > :05:01.than any other country in the world. We have to do more. We have to do
:05:01. > :05:04.better That cannot be working harder... Does it go down well at a
:05:05. > :05:11.time when it is tough for people, when people's living standards are
:05:11. > :05:15.being squeezed for longer than any time since the 1920s, for a Cabinet
:05:15. > :05:20.of millionaires, and inherited wealth to tell us to work harder?
:05:20. > :05:25.Look, if you have a Trade Minister, Lord Green, who is working hard,
:05:25. > :05:30.going all over the world, you have others encouraging British business
:05:30. > :05:34.to get out there and really pitch for the orders that they can win
:05:34. > :05:38.and create jobs and create wealth in this country, it is perfectly
:05:38. > :05:42.reasonable to say there is more that can be done and you travel
:05:42. > :05:47.abroad. You know this is true. There is more that British business
:05:47. > :05:53.can do to win the orders that are out there, waiting to be won.
:05:53. > :06:00.is all - this all resonates with what used to happen in Harold
:06:01. > :06:04.Wilson's day in the 60s, "I'm backing Britain." Nothing wrong in
:06:04. > :06:07.backing Britain. There is if it doesn't mean anything. It is up to
:06:07. > :06:11.the Government to create the conditions in which business can
:06:11. > :06:15.prosper and if you... You say you meet all these businessmen, when
:06:15. > :06:18.you go abroad, they will tell you that they don't think the
:06:18. > :06:22.Government's economic policy gives them a chance to prosper. They
:06:22. > :06:27.don't say that. If we didn't have the determined attempt to bring
:06:27. > :06:31.down Britain's borrowing then they certainly would not have a chance
:06:31. > :06:36.to prosper. That is absolutely essential. That is an essential
:06:36. > :06:40.precondition. As Eric Pickles said, the Government can create
:06:40. > :06:46.conditions in which wealth can be created, but Government cannot do
:06:46. > :06:50.it on its own. I put it to you that the real issue is not people
:06:50. > :06:55.working harder - unless it could be for people who work more
:06:55. > :07:01.effectively. The real issue facing business and chief executives is
:07:01. > :07:05.not how hard they work. The fact is they are sitting on a cash pile of
:07:05. > :07:08.�750 billion and they are not investing it in Britain and the
:07:08. > :07:12.only reason they cannot be is because they don't think the
:07:12. > :07:17.Government has created the conditions for business to invest.
:07:17. > :07:21.Look, you know perfectly... That is true. Not entirely. Of course it is
:07:21. > :07:25.true they are sitting on a great cash pile, but the reason why...
:07:25. > :07:30.Why are they not investing in it? Because we live in extremely
:07:31. > :07:35.uncertain times. I wish we didn't. We live in uncertain times. We will
:07:35. > :07:38.probably talk about Greece and the euro in a moment or two. We are
:07:38. > :07:41.indeed. I would love British business to be investing that money.
:07:41. > :07:46.I don't think you can blame the fact they are not doing so on the
:07:46. > :07:50.Government. An interesting topic. It's been a slippery market on the
:07:50. > :07:55.European Stock Markets yet again. With Greece in per pettual
:07:55. > :08:02.political crisis, questions being asked about the future of the
:08:02. > :08:07.eurozone, is that any surprise? 125 to the pound, which I guess will
:08:07. > :08:14.make Europe cheaper this year and does not help our exports T chor us
:08:14. > :08:18.of disapprove -- the chorus of disapproving voices are in Greece
:08:18. > :08:28.and Germany. Mrs Merkel lost the biggest state in Germany in local
:08:28. > :08:29.
:08:29. > :08:32.elections yesterday. There are a few unhappy workers here too.
:08:32. > :08:37.For austerity, that has been the economic model of choice here and
:08:37. > :08:41.in Europe and in the last few years across the continent. Political
:08:41. > :08:46.opposition show nos sign of retreating. Here doctors will start
:08:46. > :08:52.to vote on whether to take their first industrial action since the
:08:52. > :08:56.1970s, in a bitter dispute with the Government's controversial
:08:56. > :09:00.pensionry forms. The Royal College of Nursing is claiming overworked
:09:00. > :09:04.staff and job cuts have left the NHS facing a desperate situation.
:09:04. > :09:09.It says that 61,000 posts are at risk across the health service. A
:09:09. > :09:12.figure which the Government disputes. On Thursday more than
:09:12. > :09:18.30,000 off-duty police officers, they marched through central London
:09:18. > :09:20.to protest at cuts in the police service. Europe are chucking out
:09:21. > :09:24.governors in Greece. Coalition talks appear to be close to
:09:24. > :09:29.collapse, largely due to disagreements over the austerity
:09:29. > :09:32.programme forced on them by Europe. Tomorrow the new French President,
:09:32. > :09:37.Francois Hollande, who came to power on anti-austerity pledge,
:09:37. > :09:42.well he will meet for the first time the German Chancellor, Mrs
:09:42. > :09:47.Merkel, to argue for a different approach. Even Mrs Merkel has felt
:09:47. > :09:53.the displeasure of her people. Her Christian Democrat party suffered a
:09:53. > :09:56.regional defeat. The result many are interpreting as
:09:56. > :10:00.a verdict on the austerity programme.
:10:00. > :10:06.So, pretty grim times all around on this side of the channel and
:10:06. > :10:12.elsewhere. He joins us now, he is one of Labour's Treasury team.
:10:12. > :10:16.Welcome to the programme. Let me come to you first - it is a fiscal
:10:16. > :10:24.nimbyism you see. People accept there'll have to be cuts, to get
:10:24. > :10:29.the deficit down, to get the debt down, but not in our back yard!
:10:29. > :10:33.is understandable and not a very surprising reaction. It is easy to
:10:33. > :10:38.forget the basic economics here. If you have been borrowing too much
:10:38. > :10:43.and you need to carry on borrowing, the rate of interest you will pay
:10:43. > :10:46.depends on how credit-worthy you are. If you are seen to be making
:10:46. > :10:49.determined attempts to bring down your borrowing, you pay lower
:10:49. > :10:54.interest rates. That is one of the best ways you can encourage your
:10:54. > :10:59.economy to grow. If you start to borrow even more, the rate of
:10:59. > :11:02.interest you pay will go up and that would be one of the greatest
:11:02. > :11:05.imped meants to economic growth. This is not rocket science but it
:11:05. > :11:10.is something it is easy for people to forget. What do you say to that?
:11:10. > :11:16.I think you have to have a balanced approach T difficulty is that the
:11:16. > :11:22.Government don't show much sign of accepting that. Yes, we have to
:11:22. > :11:25.take action... Ultimately? Ully matly we do. In order -- ultimately
:11:25. > :11:29.we do. To deal with the high borrowing levels. There are 150
:11:29. > :11:32.million more than the Chancellor was predicting - you have to get
:11:32. > :11:37.growth into the economy. The Government seem to be saying it is
:11:37. > :11:41.just about austerity, it is just about the expenditure side, nothing
:11:41. > :11:44.about getting the economy moving, generating income, revenue to get
:11:45. > :11:49.back into the balance. That is all we have been saying for 18 months
:11:49. > :11:52.now at least. Alistair Darling had it in his plan. Of course there are
:11:52. > :11:57.tough decisions on expenditure, but we need to get the economy moving.
:11:57. > :12:02.That is where the Government is failing. You have done nothing to
:12:02. > :12:06.make people understand that there will have to be cuts. You attacked
:12:06. > :12:10.the Government for cuts, but you accept there are cuts yourself, but
:12:10. > :12:13.you never emphasis that. We always said we need a balanced approach.
:12:13. > :12:18.Yes, we are criticising the Government, as the phrase goes for
:12:18. > :12:21.going too far and too fast. The key thing here is we have said, yes,
:12:21. > :12:25.there are certain circumstances where reductions in expenditure are
:12:25. > :12:32.necessary. I give you the example of policing for example. Instead of
:12:32. > :12:37.the �20 billion reductions, we... That is the one example you always
:12:37. > :12:44.bring out. There are other examples elsewhere. Do you think the cuts
:12:44. > :12:47.have caused -- if you think the cuts are the reasons why the
:12:47. > :12:51.economy is not growing, how much has been cut since the coalition
:12:51. > :12:53.came to power? Of course they had their so-called Emergency Budget so
:12:53. > :13:01.called after the general election. There was a significant amount
:13:01. > :13:06.taken out of capital eke pen diure. Overall? We have not begun --
:13:06. > :13:12.expenditure. Overall? We have not begun... In the first two years,
:13:12. > :13:17.that feast is finished. How much have the coalition cut? I think
:13:17. > :13:24.they are certainly trying to reduce that sense that the Government are
:13:24. > :13:27.going to be active in economic policy. How much has been cut from
:13:27. > :13:32.public spending? Taking the last Year of the Labour Government and
:13:32. > :13:38.the financial year just finished, which means two full years? I don't
:13:38. > :13:43.have the figures with me. They are �8 billion. Public spending last
:13:43. > :13:48.year was �8 billion lower than the last year of Labour and the public
:13:48. > :13:53.spending had just gone up by �36 million. What I am trying to get to
:13:53. > :13:57.you is why would an �8 billion cut throw us into recession? There is a
:13:58. > :14:00.confidence issue and a demand issue here. If you think we've had the
:14:00. > :14:04.sense of confidence for consumers, the demand in the economy, it's
:14:04. > :14:12.just not been there. We've had choices taken by the Government
:14:12. > :14:16.that have removed confidence. If Government isn't there to play a
:14:16. > :14:19.counter sickicallyal role. If consumers do not spend, if there is
:14:19. > :14:22.no stimulus then we will go back into recession. We are in recession.
:14:22. > :14:27.This is a serious situation. We are not generating the revenues to get
:14:28. > :14:32.ourselves out of the hole. Let me come to Michael Howard N the first
:14:32. > :14:37.Budget, 2010, the OBR, endorsed by the Government, made predictions
:14:37. > :14:43.for growth this by now, by now, by the summer of 201, the economy
:14:43. > :14:49.would have grown by 4.3 -- 2012, the economy would have grown by
:14:49. > :14:53.4.3%. How much has it grown by? hasn't. It has grown by 0.4% in
:14:53. > :14:57.these two years, which is one-tenth of what the Government said it
:14:57. > :15:02.would grow by. When I interviewed Eric Pickles yesterday and other
:15:02. > :15:09.Government ministers, they seem bereft of any ideas to get growth
:15:09. > :15:14.going. First of all, you have got to go behind the label of growth.
:15:14. > :15:19.You have got to examine what people mean. What Chris Leslie means is
:15:19. > :15:21.borrowing more and spending more. There are things you could do to
:15:21. > :15:24.encourage growth which don't involve extra spending and
:15:24. > :15:28.borrowing. You would do things to free up the labour market. The
:15:28. > :15:38.Government is taking some measures in the de-regulation Bill, which
:15:38. > :15:40.
:15:40. > :15:43.When the leader of the Opposition went to Barnsley the other day, he
:15:43. > :15:47.said he wanted to make it more difficult for employers to dismiss
:15:47. > :15:51.people, more difficult. Sorry Michael... He's going completely
:15:52. > :15:57.the other way. Is the ideology of the Government that making it
:15:58. > :16:02.easier to fire people is the best way to get out of the recession?
:16:02. > :16:05.You've asked me a question and I'll answer it. Everybody who has looked
:16:05. > :16:10.at these things all over the world knows, if it's ease tkwror fire
:16:10. > :16:14.people, it's easier to hire people. And more people are hired.
:16:14. > :16:24.should be making it ease tkwror hire them. So we need, for
:16:24. > :16:27.
:16:27. > :16:31.example... ALL TALK AT ONCE Can I move onto Greece. We all know
:16:31. > :16:35.that if the eurozone goes south, that whatever our economic policy
:16:35. > :16:39.here, it's bad news for Britain. Does the Labour Party have a
:16:39. > :16:43.position on Greece's future in the eurozone? Is it your view that
:16:43. > :16:47.Greece should continue with the austerity pact and stay in the
:16:47. > :16:51.eurozone or actually, that's just going to be so painful it should
:16:51. > :16:56.get out? There is an anxiety that the obsession with austerity will
:16:56. > :17:00.be very short lived and might be self-defeating not just in terms of
:17:00. > :17:04.the growth agenda across Europe, but possibly provoking a reaction
:17:04. > :17:08.from Greece... There is a reaction already. We know the situation...
:17:08. > :17:12.Let me explain. It's not necessary for Labour to have a policy. I'm
:17:12. > :17:16.just asking whether you have. my point of view I think it would
:17:16. > :17:22.be disastrous to see the eurozone breaking up. It would be very bad
:17:22. > :17:25.to see... You're opposed to the anti-austerity party's in Greece?
:17:25. > :17:29.think the key thing, without getting embroiled in the
:17:29. > :17:33.maccinations of Greek politics, the key thing is there has to be more
:17:33. > :17:37.effect made to find a longer term solution. Trying to extricate
:17:37. > :17:41.Greece from the euro would then put the spotlight on what's happening
:17:41. > :17:46.in Spain, in Italy and elsewhere, Ireland, Portugal, you name it.
:17:46. > :17:51.Once one country leaves and there's a sense of that exit door there,
:17:51. > :17:55.it's the fear of contagion. That's not what the Germans are saying and
:17:55. > :17:59.they're the ones picking up the bills. Speaking personally, should
:17:59. > :18:05.Greece still make a go of this austerity deal or should it pack it
:18:05. > :18:08.in and leave the euro? Greece is going to have to face a long time
:18:08. > :18:13.of austerity whatever it does. There are no easy choices facing
:18:14. > :18:18.Greece. There would be a great deal of disruption if it left the euro.
:18:18. > :18:23.And it wouldn't be, that wouldn't make it possible to avoid austerity.
:18:23. > :18:28.I think they face a very unenviable choices, but there are wider
:18:28. > :18:36.questions of the future of the euro more generally. JP Morgan, I want
:18:36. > :18:40.to finish on that, you've seen the 2 billion loss again. What is the
:18:40. > :18:43.difference between an investment bank and a casino? I think that,
:18:43. > :18:47.hopefully, we're getting to a position where investment banks are
:18:47. > :18:50.going to be ring-fence add way from the retail part of the economy, the
:18:50. > :18:54.thing that cash machines and all the rest of it. We've had the
:18:54. > :18:58.investment banking and retail banking world so linked that we
:18:58. > :19:02.need to pull it... That's not the right answer. Shall I give you the
:19:02. > :19:09.right answer? One is a well managed and has effective risk controls.
:19:09. > :19:13.The other is an investment bank. ( Boom-boom.
:19:14. > :19:18.Right. Who's the author of that wonderful definition? I think we
:19:18. > :19:22.got it on Twitter. We're not very original here! All right. Are we
:19:22. > :19:25.saying goodbye to Chris Leslie now? It's been a pleasure. Thank you for
:19:26. > :19:31.having me stphr. Parting is such sweet sorry.
:19:31. > :19:34.Sometimes we're a party leader stands on an issue and where they
:19:34. > :19:38.want him to stand is like instructions for line dancing, step
:19:38. > :19:43.to the left, move to the right, just spin on the spot. Michael
:19:43. > :19:46.Howard is nodding. He knows I speak the truth on this issue. Since the
:19:46. > :19:51.Budget and bad local election results the call for David Cameron
:19:51. > :19:57.has been resolutely to move right, right, right. But will he? Should
:19:57. > :20:00.he? Gyles has been finding out. A PM doesn't just have to run a
:20:00. > :20:05.country, but a party. If that's the Conservative Party, then it means
:20:05. > :20:08.keeping a very broad range of views all happy under one banner. Never
:20:08. > :20:12.is that job harder than when things aren't going your way in the
:20:12. > :20:14.country and the people paying the political price are your foot
:20:14. > :20:18.soldiers, who can go from Councillor to critic in the space
:20:19. > :20:24.of a count. Since the Budget the Conservatives have gained a
:20:24. > :20:27.reputation for incompetence. Many people who are not natural
:20:27. > :20:30.Conservatives assume the Conservatives support the better
:20:30. > :20:34.off, they're a bit heartless. But they think they're competent and
:20:34. > :20:38.they get votes from people who say, I don't terribly like their outlook
:20:38. > :20:45.on life, but they know how to run things. When they lose that bit of
:20:45. > :20:49.their reputation, as they did for example in the 1990s, they're sunk.
:20:49. > :20:54.So would a so-called right shift, a move to more stridently
:20:54. > :20:58.Conservative views on tax, public spending and society give the core
:20:58. > :21:03.and possibly voters a window of assurance about the future? For
:21:03. > :21:06.some it's not even about the right, the problem is the middle. At the
:21:06. > :21:11.top of the party there is almost an obsession with capturing the centre
:21:11. > :21:16.ground. I think that drives us to take our eye off the ball
:21:16. > :21:21.occasionally, off those big issues and we get detracted at looking at
:21:21. > :21:25.issues, such as the redefinition of marriage, or Lord's reform or wind
:21:25. > :21:29.turbines, which actually, don't make much stopbs people outside.
:21:29. > :21:32.That's not their main concern in the street. They're not worried
:21:32. > :21:36.about the red benches. They're more worried about the red lines on
:21:36. > :21:40.their monthly statements. contribution is let's be positive,
:21:40. > :21:43.let's say what can make Britain a better place. Let's not be
:21:43. > :21:46.ideological. There are good ideas out there. They're sometimes called
:21:46. > :21:49.right, sometimes left. Let's go for the common ground. That's where
:21:49. > :21:54.more people are in support and recognise where the common ground
:21:55. > :21:58.is now. It's not where some people say the centre ground is. Such
:21:58. > :22:02.voices stress they're still supportive of the PM but keen to
:22:02. > :22:05.give him options. The party doesn't need to lurch to the right.
:22:05. > :22:09.Elections are fought on the centre ground. David Cameron is more
:22:09. > :22:12.popular with the public than Conservative Party grandees and
:22:12. > :22:15.colleagues should remember that. Divided parties lose. That's not in
:22:15. > :22:19.the interest of our party. Personally I don't think it's in
:22:19. > :22:21.the interest of our country. Anyone who thinks previous party leaders
:22:22. > :22:25.haven't presided over their own tugs of war between the party's
:22:25. > :22:30.wings are delewding themselves. The skill is to be either strong enough
:22:30. > :22:36.to hold the line you want... lady's not for turning. Or allow
:22:36. > :22:40.both sides a few victories to hold balance. Which path David Cameron
:22:40. > :22:47.favours following may be determined less by convincing Conservative
:22:47. > :22:51.argument, and more by the convines of what coalition will allow.
:22:51. > :22:56.-- confines of what coalition will allow. What do you say to Tories
:22:56. > :22:59.who want a more robust Toryism? What the Government has got to do,
:22:59. > :23:04.what any Government should do, is per sue the policies which are
:23:04. > :23:09.right for the country. That's got to determine what policies you put
:23:09. > :23:12.into place. It's complicated by the fact we have a coalition Government.
:23:12. > :23:15.I support this coalition. I'm in the a great fan of coalitions in
:23:15. > :23:19.general. I'd much prefer there to be a single party Conservative
:23:19. > :23:25.Government. We take that for granted, you'd want that. I would.
:23:25. > :23:28.If we had a majority, but we didn't get a majority. So you have to have
:23:28. > :23:31.compromises in coalition. You know the criticism of your colleagues,
:23:31. > :23:34.you know this as well as I do, they know they're in coalition. They
:23:34. > :23:38.know they can't get everything. They can't get everything for the
:23:38. > :23:44.very good reason they didn't win the election. Exactly. But they
:23:44. > :23:47.feel that the Lib Dems, who make up a sixth of Parliament, are getting
:23:47. > :23:51.a lot more than they're getting, that Mr Cameron listens to the Lib
:23:51. > :23:55.Dems a lot more than he does his own backbenchs. What do you say to
:23:55. > :23:59.that? I'm not sure that's right. I'm right in saying that's the
:23:59. > :24:01.feeling, correct? I think people take that view. I'm not sure it's
:24:01. > :24:05.right. You put yourself in the shoes of the Prime Minister, he's
:24:05. > :24:10.got to try and do what's right for the cub tri-- country. He know
:24:10. > :24:14.what's he think sz right. He has to take into account the views of
:24:14. > :24:17.coalition partners. On issues like Lord's reform or gay marriage, are
:24:17. > :24:22.these things the coalition should pursue in the particular economic
:24:22. > :24:26.climate we've been talking about? Well, I don't know to what extent
:24:26. > :24:33.Lord's reform is going to be pushed through. It seems to be a bit of an
:24:33. > :24:36.open question. You don't sound too keen on it. Well, all the parties
:24:36. > :24:39.work committed to it in their manifestos last time. That's
:24:39. > :24:44.perfectly true. We're going to have a bill. It's going to start in the
:24:44. > :24:47.House of Commons. We'll have to see what happens to it. You don't sound
:24:47. > :24:50.convinced. I agree with those who've said that people in the
:24:50. > :24:54.street are worried about much other things at this particular time.
:24:54. > :24:58.I'll take that was a yes. Gay marriage, is that a core
:24:58. > :25:00.Conservative principle? No, it's not. But it's not in the Queen's
:25:00. > :25:04.Speech. The Government is consulting about it. It's a
:25:04. > :25:09.perfectly reasonable thing to consult about. A lot of people hold
:25:09. > :25:15.up bar ris Johnson and say look, London is a Labour city, but he won
:25:15. > :25:22.London with a strong populist Tory message. What do you say? I think
:25:22. > :25:26.that, look, London was essentially ape contest between two person --
:25:26. > :25:31.essentially a contest between two personalities. It was the nearest
:25:31. > :25:35.thing we have in this country to a presidential election. You vote
:25:35. > :25:40.individually. You vote directly for the individuals not indirectly as
:25:40. > :25:43.we normally do. So personalities played a part in that election to a
:25:43. > :25:50.greater extent than is usual in our politics. Boris won because he's
:25:50. > :25:56.Boris. Are you content to put the current woes of the Conservative-
:25:56. > :26:02.led coalition down to mid-term blues or are you not worried there
:26:02. > :26:06.is something more fundamental afoot, that these are tough times, people
:26:06. > :26:10.may be prepared to live with tough times if they see a light at the
:26:10. > :26:13.end of the tunnel, but if the Government gets a reputation for
:26:13. > :26:17.incompetence and being out of touch, that's worse than just mid-term
:26:17. > :26:24.blues? Obviously, that's a danger. All governments go through rough
:26:24. > :26:29.patches. That's why the term "mid- term blues" has become such an
:26:29. > :26:32.accepted part of our political jargon. The big question is a lot
:26:32. > :26:36.of governments come out of those rough patches and recover and go on
:26:36. > :26:39.to win the next election. Not all governments do. I'm confident that
:26:39. > :26:43.this is a rough patch, out of which this Government will come.
:26:43. > :26:49.there was an interesting feature of the elections for Labour, which is
:26:49. > :26:54.not to the Conservatives' advantage, which is once again Labour began to
:26:54. > :26:59.establish itself in a party strong in every part of the country. They
:26:59. > :27:01.held onto Glasgow. They did well in the west of Scotland. They took
:27:01. > :27:06.back South Wales. They increased their position in the north of
:27:06. > :27:09.England. They started winning seats again in the Midlands and the south.
:27:09. > :27:14.Whereas increasingly your party looks like a regional party of
:27:14. > :27:17.London and the south. No-one is going to pretepbld that the local
:27:17. > :27:22.elections were a triumph for the Labour Party. I'm saying is that a
:27:22. > :27:25.trend, does that make you pause to think, this could be more than mid-
:27:25. > :27:30.term blues? Well, nobody knows. That's an honest answer! Nobody
:27:30. > :27:36.knows. My take on it, I'm confident that the Government can recover.
:27:36. > :27:39.Nobody knows for sure. The local elections were not a triumph. We
:27:39. > :27:42.have to learn lessons from what's happened in the last few weeks. I
:27:42. > :27:46.think the Government will ref cover, but we'll come back, no doubt in
:27:46. > :27:49.two or three years' time and know the answer. In two or three years'
:27:49. > :27:52.time when the coalition parties go their separate way to fight the
:27:52. > :27:57.election as separate parties and we're agreed they'll do that,
:27:57. > :28:06.correct? Yes. Should the Conservatives include in their
:28:06. > :28:09.manifesto a rev dumb on Europe - in -- referendum on Europe -in or out?
:28:09. > :28:13.You're asking me to write the manifesto two or three years out.
:28:13. > :28:16.I'm asking what you think? depends entirely on the
:28:16. > :28:20.circumstances at that time. It might be a sensible thing to do at
:28:20. > :28:26.that time. It might be idiotic. it just a matter of principle?
:28:26. > :28:29.at all. One thing I think is pretty clear, lots are going to happen to
:28:29. > :28:32.the European Union between now and the next election. There are going
:28:32. > :28:36.to be many developments. In the light of those developments we
:28:36. > :28:40.should decide that question. 2015 we may not recognise it.
:28:40. > :28:44.knows. Indeed. I don't know. Whoever thought a
:28:44. > :28:51.poll significance would tell me that, honesty has broken out.
:28:51. > :28:52.Police officers from every force in England and Wales are gathering for
:28:52. > :28:56.their annual conference. Theresa May is due to address them on
:28:56. > :29:00.Wednesday in what's likely to be a tense encounter. It follows the
:29:00. > :29:05.march in London last week of 30,000 police officers, protesting at cuts
:29:05. > :29:10.in the service. Police officers cannot strike. Such is the feeling
:29:10. > :29:12.within the organisation that there are plans to ballot members on the
:29:12. > :29:15.subject this Autumn. Paul McKeever is Chairman of the
:29:15. > :29:25.Police Federation of England and Wales. He joins us from our
:29:25. > :29:27.
:29:27. > :29:30.Southampton newsroom. Welcome. What kind of reception are you going to
:29:30. > :29:34.give the Home Secretary this time? The Home Secretary hopefully is
:29:34. > :29:37.somebody who will listen. You have a former Home Secretary there,
:29:37. > :29:41.Michael Howard, somebody who we held in very high regard indeed. He
:29:41. > :29:45.was very successful Home Secretary. He used to listen to us. He would
:29:45. > :29:49.meet with us and listen. We hope the Home Secretary will do the same.
:29:49. > :29:53.Michael Howard didn't have to preside over huge cuts. We even had
:29:53. > :29:59.Labour in here earlier saying that even they would have to cut the
:29:59. > :30:03.police. Not by as much, but they wo. I ask again, what kind of reception,
:30:03. > :30:06.what mood are your members in in the way they're going to treat the
:30:06. > :30:10.Home Secretary when she arrives? She is the Home Secretary and we
:30:10. > :30:13.have to recognise her office. The questions will be asked of the Home
:30:13. > :30:17.Secretary will be clear. Why have the coalition Government given
:30:17. > :30:20.policing such a low priority? Why is it they've chosen to increase
:30:20. > :30:25.some budgets like overseas development by 34%, which would be
:30:25. > :30:28.a larger budget than policing? Why, when we're facing what is in effect
:30:28. > :30:32.a four-year pay freeze and additional contributions to
:30:32. > :30:35.pensions, like everybody else in the public sector, why are we
:30:35. > :30:40.facing pay reviews taking more money out of our pockets? We're
:30:40. > :30:44.trying to be fair about this. When the coalition came into office, we
:30:44. > :30:47.listened to Sir Denis O'Connor who said we could cut by 12%, we
:30:47. > :30:52.accepted that. To see 20% and more, it will be disastrous for policing.
:30:52. > :30:56.Let me put that to the former Home Secretary and Conservative peer.
:30:56. > :31:06.Why is a Conservative-led Government cutting the police
:31:06. > :31:12.
:31:12. > :31:17.budget by 20% and increasing Thank you very much about the nice
:31:17. > :31:24.things he seed about me. The Prime Minister has said and I agree with
:31:24. > :31:29.him that we're not going to balance our budget on the world's poor.:
:31:29. > :31:32.Will you on the back of the police instead. The Home Secretary had an
:31:32. > :31:36.independent look at the terms and conditions of the police and that
:31:36. > :31:41.has come forth with some recommendations and she's wanting
:31:41. > :31:45.to put those recommendations into effect. I am sure she'll listen to
:31:46. > :31:53.what the police have to say. The police have to recognise that we're
:31:53. > :31:57.in very difficult times and we all have to accept.... Now the Police
:31:57. > :32:02.Federation have said they think that things can not continue as
:32:02. > :32:09.they are. It is not just the budget cuts you are against. You continue
:32:09. > :32:12.like the reforms as well? Some of the reforms are leading to a
:32:12. > :32:19.fundamental change in British policing T accountability we have
:32:19. > :32:21.is being lost by the wholesale privatisation in some forces. We
:32:22. > :32:25.are losing the resilience F you remember last year, during the
:32:25. > :32:29.riots, we managed to get 16,000 officers out on the streets to
:32:29. > :32:36.quell those riots. That is almost the number we're looking to lose
:32:36. > :32:46.over the next few years. We accept there has to be a cut. Education
:32:46. > :32:50.was set by a similar per cent. The public's safety is being put at
:32:50. > :32:55.risk by some draconian changes. you accept that the police service
:32:55. > :32:59.needs to get much more -- do you accept that the police service
:32:59. > :33:04.needs to get much more efficient? We were the first to call for a
:33:04. > :33:07.Royal Commission, to look fundamentally at policing to. Have
:33:07. > :33:13.this piecemeal change which is going on, it will lead to a
:33:13. > :33:23.different police service. We have questions about the report carried
:33:23. > :33:28.out by Tom Windsor as well. There are some real doubts in our mind
:33:28. > :33:32.that we'll be able to keep the public safe. You have a
:33:32. > :33:39.disillusioned police service. Almost every officer off duty was
:33:39. > :33:44.in London last week. 35,000 police officers trying to get across how
:33:44. > :33:48.fundamental these changes are and that public safety is being put at
:33:48. > :33:53.risk. You have a police service saying we understand there has to
:33:53. > :33:56.be a cut. You have got the head of the Police Federation there telling
:33:56. > :34:02.me he understands there are some restrictive practises they have to
:34:02. > :34:06.get rid of. Despite that attitude, which is not exactly an attitude
:34:06. > :34:10.akin to Arthur Scargill's miners many years ago. You have managed to
:34:10. > :34:14.get 30,000 police on to the streets of London against a Conservative-
:34:14. > :34:17.led Government. Something has gone wrong. I can understand that police
:34:17. > :34:22.officers feel very strongly about these things, just like the others
:34:22. > :34:26.that you mentioned at the beginning of this interview, doctors, nurses,
:34:26. > :34:31.others feel strongly. We live in difficult times, I am afraid.
:34:31. > :34:34.People who do feel strongly are nevertheless going to have to
:34:34. > :34:39.accept that the world has changed and because the world has changed,
:34:39. > :34:42.we've got to change the way we do things. There has to be a dialogue.
:34:42. > :34:46.I am sure the Home Secretary will listen to what Paul and his
:34:46. > :34:50.colleagues say. At the end of the day, we have to recognise that
:34:50. > :34:54.really difficult measures have to be taken because of the
:34:54. > :35:03.circumstances we're in. Very briefly. I have to say we cannot
:35:03. > :35:09.understand why the Government has given policing such a last -- low
:35:09. > :35:15.priority. The protection of citizens is at risk. Well, we're
:35:15. > :35:21.going to have to let Michael Howard go. He worked hard. Eric Pickles
:35:21. > :35:24.would be proud of him - your productivity has been huge. We saw
:35:24. > :35:28.all revelations about the relationships between the press and
:35:28. > :35:34.politicians since David Cameron came to power, including how he
:35:34. > :35:44.signs off his text messages. Yes, we deal with the big issues of our
:35:44. > :35:48.times. This afternoon we will see how it worked out when Tony Blair
:35:48. > :35:53.was at Number Ten. Alastair Campbell will be in front
:35:53. > :35:56.of the bench. You must have been aware when you were Tory leader of
:35:56. > :36:01.this incredibly close, deep relationship between News
:36:01. > :36:06.International, the Murdoch organisation, and the Government?
:36:06. > :36:10.Who could be unaware of it. Certainly, I was, yes. Was there
:36:11. > :36:18.nothing you could do? You needed the support of the Sun and other
:36:18. > :36:24.papers. Sure. Was it impossible to break into? That's right. I failed.
:36:24. > :36:30.Do you think that had an impact, on for example the 2005 election?
:36:30. > :36:36.think you can exaggerate the extent... The Sun took a while to
:36:36. > :36:41.make up its mind in 2005, didn't it? I had some hopes at some point.
:36:41. > :36:45.I will tell you, here is a scope for this programme, Andrew.
:36:45. > :36:49.Excellent! I asked Rupert Murdoch directly for his support at the
:36:49. > :36:58.2005 election. He said, my heart is with you, but I am afraid my head
:36:58. > :37:04.isn't. So he'd had enough of new Labour by
:37:04. > :37:06.then, he kind of wanted to go with you, but he wanted, he thought
:37:06. > :37:10.better stick with Labour. How interesting.
:37:10. > :37:14.Well, we will see what Mr Campbell has to say this afternoon. In these
:37:14. > :37:20.days t Prime Minister didn't do texting and there wasn't so many e-
:37:20. > :37:26.mails around. I didn't know how to text in 205. I saw you doing it --
:37:26. > :37:31.2005. I saw you doing it on the way in here today. How did you sign it
:37:31. > :37:38.off? It was an e-mail. As usual it will be a busy time for us hard-
:37:38. > :37:41.working and I say it again "hard- working" political journalists Mr
:37:41. > :37:46.Pickles. Tomorrow will see Ed Miliband shuffle his Cabinet. Peter
:37:46. > :37:50.Hain says he will stand down. Keep an eye out for whether Blairites
:37:50. > :37:55.still have a job. On Thursday Francois Hollande is oh -- on
:37:55. > :38:01.Tuesday Francois Hollande is sworn in as France's new President. He is
:38:01. > :38:06.expected to hold emergency talks with Angela Merkel to discuss the
:38:06. > :38:11.continuing crisis. On Wednesday the Treasury will await the employment
:38:11. > :38:16.figures as well as the Bank of England's inflation report.
:38:16. > :38:22.Then in the evening, the Conservative 1922 Committee, a sort
:38:22. > :38:28.of trade union of Tory backbenchers, will vote for positions on the
:38:28. > :38:34.executive. The Tory leadership will hope for some loyalists to try and
:38:34. > :38:39.steady the ship. Let's get the views of two hard-working political
:38:39. > :38:42.journalists. Very hard working - I am told Mr Pickles. Amber Elliott
:38:42. > :38:46.from Total Politics magazine and the Guardian's Nick Watt.
:38:46. > :38:51.First of all, are we going to get a Labour reshuffle? Yes, I think we
:38:51. > :38:58.are. We know there is a vacancy. Peter Hain has said he wants to
:38:58. > :39:02.resign as Shadow Welsh Secretary. There probably will be a reshuffle.
:39:02. > :39:06.You will perhaps look at a reshuffle or the thinking about a
:39:06. > :39:11.reshuffle after that speech tomorrow. The big question is; does
:39:11. > :39:14.it go further than filling the slot vacated by Peter Hain? What the
:39:14. > :39:19.Labour Party sources are saying is, look we had a big reshuffle last
:39:19. > :39:24.year f you like the 2010 reshuffle, when they brought on really
:39:24. > :39:30.talented people who were elected at the last election. Will they do
:39:30. > :39:37.something like you just said there? Is Liam Burn going to be moved
:39:37. > :39:44.aside? There's a battle going on. Blairiates today are saying we --
:39:44. > :39:48.Blairites today are saying they support him. What do you think? An
:39:48. > :39:54.extensive reshuffle or just fill the hole left behind by Peter Hain?
:39:54. > :40:00.I think we'll see a mini-reshuffle. I think Ed Miliband is happy with
:40:00. > :40:03.where his party is I think we might see Liam Burn lose one of his
:40:03. > :40:08.positions. Perhaps we will see a reshuffle there. The other thing to
:40:08. > :40:13.consider is David Miliband's role. There have been rumours and
:40:13. > :40:19.whispers about where he might head. I am hearing he is not moving.
:40:19. > :40:23.So we will not see perhaps him move up quite yet. And Nick, this new
:40:23. > :40:26.mantra from the Government, we had it from Mr Hague yesterday in the
:40:26. > :40:31.Sunday Telegraph, from Mr Pickles on the Sunday politics - that we
:40:31. > :40:38.all node to work harder, particularly chief executives need
:40:38. > :40:43.to work harder - as a spin line, how would you rate that out of ten?
:40:43. > :40:47.Zero or one? Kit not apply to you, me and Amber because we could not
:40:47. > :40:49.be working any harder. Think the Government needs to be careful. The
:40:49. > :40:52.Conservative Party like to think of themselves as the friend of
:40:52. > :40:56.business and they seem to have found themselves getting into a
:40:56. > :41:01.spat with business leaders. It is interesting that Peter Mandelson
:41:01. > :41:04.said one of the reasons high the Labour Party lost the last election
:41:04. > :41:08.is because they didn't have any business leaders on their side. You
:41:08. > :41:12.had the Queen speech last week, there appeared to be, as far as
:41:12. > :41:17.businesses were concerned, not enough measures in there to promote
:41:17. > :41:21.growth, so they are not happy. If the Tories were in power on their
:41:21. > :41:28.own, you would probably see some serious supply side reforms coming
:41:28. > :41:31.through. We talk about the report by the venture capitalist, talking
:41:31. > :41:35.about it being easier to sack worker who are not working hard.
:41:35. > :41:39.They are in coalition, so they are slightly ham strung. Cannot do all
:41:39. > :41:42.they want to do, can the Conservatives. They need to think
:41:42. > :41:46.carefully. A Government at war with business - not really the right
:41:46. > :41:52.place to be. Particularly a Conservative-led Government. Amber,
:41:52. > :41:57.these elections to this 192 committee it is really a - it is a
:41:57. > :42:04.-- 1922 Committee, it is a test. What are they going to do? Are they
:42:04. > :42:09.going to put a bunch of loyalists on to that executive? There is a
:42:09. > :42:12.group among the David Cameron lot called the 301 Group. They tend to
:42:12. > :42:16.be loyal. Perhaps they are ambitious about where they want to
:42:16. > :42:20.go. They are standing for a lot of the executive positions. There is a
:42:20. > :42:24.feeling perhaps it has something to do with David Cameron trying to put
:42:24. > :42:27.his stamp on the backbenches. The other thing is there is an Old
:42:27. > :42:31.Guard there at the moment. Perhaps we should not just see it as
:42:31. > :42:37.Cameron's people trying to put their mark on this, but a younger
:42:37. > :42:42.group of 2010 intake MPs coming up, saying we want a bigger role in our
:42:42. > :42:48.backbenchers. I think you have worked hard enough. Take a quick
:42:48. > :42:54.tea break and be back for another 18-hour shift. With us are Monday's
:42:54. > :43:00.members, Laura Sandys, Jenny Willott and for Labour Kate Green.
:43:00. > :43:04.Welcome to you all. Are you excited about the reshuffle? I don't think
:43:04. > :43:11.it is the biggest story we are thinking about today. We have a
:43:11. > :43:15.competent team across the Labour Party. Are you waiting by your
:43:15. > :43:20.phone? I am not waiting by my phone. Who ever it is... I am very happy
:43:20. > :43:25.with the job I am doing. Who ever is doing whatever job we are a
:43:25. > :43:29.strong team and we are sharing ideas together. That is
:43:29. > :43:35.controversial for a member to say. Just ask you to be independent for
:43:35. > :43:42.a few seconds - would you like, in your own view, to see a
:43:42. > :43:47.minireshuffle or an extensive reshuffle? I -- mini-reshuffle or
:43:47. > :43:50.an extensive reshuffle? I don't think there is any need for an
:43:50. > :43:55.extensive reshuffle. We are getting our message across to more and more
:43:55. > :44:00.of the voters. I don't see the need for a major reshuffle. Would you
:44:00. > :44:06.like to see David Miliband? I think he has tremendous strengths. Would
:44:06. > :44:10.you like to see him brought back in? I am happy to see him in.
:44:10. > :44:15.are happy in or out? I think David has his own views. Is there
:44:15. > :44:19.anything about David you would not be happy about? He must have the
:44:19. > :44:25.opportunity... You will not express a view. He will be a huge asset to
:44:25. > :44:28.the team, but it is up to David to say what he wants to. Even I know
:44:28. > :44:33.that bit. I was interested in your opinion. That is what we do on
:44:33. > :44:39.shows like this. Tell me about this working harder nonsense? What it is,
:44:39. > :44:44.it's about as a country we need to regain some of our ambition. I
:44:44. > :44:49.didn't see the exact quote directed at business. No William Hague
:44:49. > :44:53.talked about justice King, the person who runs Sainsbury's. He
:44:53. > :44:56.picked out the head of the British Chambers of Commerce and said, they
:44:56. > :45:01.should work harder. Why are you picking a fight with people who
:45:01. > :45:04.already work hard? Having run two businesses myself I know how hard
:45:04. > :45:10.business people work. What is important is that we get that
:45:10. > :45:13.sepbts of ambition internationally. I think -- sense of ambition
:45:13. > :45:17.internationally. There is a lot Government can do when it comes to
:45:17. > :45:23.exports. That is an area we have not, as a country, over the past 15
:45:23. > :45:27.years we have left it. coalition Government didn't say
:45:27. > :45:33.Government and ministers and business - we've got to get
:45:33. > :45:43.together more and push the export drive. It said, you business folk
:45:43. > :45:47.I can't say what William Hague intended by his comments. What bit
:45:47. > :45:51.didn't you understand? You can't solve everything by legislation.
:45:51. > :45:54.Government can't solve everything itself. In my constituency I
:45:54. > :45:59.represent a city centre. There say huge diverse range of businesses
:45:59. > :46:02.there. Actually, a lot of the medium sized businesss are doing
:46:02. > :46:06.well. They're very ambitious, taking on new staff. When they can
:46:06. > :46:10.get bank loans, they're expanding very often. The issues facing
:46:11. > :46:14.businesses and holding some of them back are a whole range of different
:46:14. > :46:18.issues, many of which are outside the hands of the Government itself.
:46:18. > :46:22.I think that it's up to everybody to be playing their part in it to
:46:22. > :46:27.make sure that we build the economy. You can't solve everything by
:46:27. > :46:30.legislation? Absolutely. Do you go to Lib Dem conferences? I've been
:46:30. > :46:34.going to Lib Dem conferences for years. Every problem there is,
:46:34. > :46:38.there's a demand for legislation. think it's clear thaw can't
:46:38. > :46:42.actually solve everything by legislation. You say that -- will
:46:42. > :46:45.you say that at the Lib Dem conference this year? We have been
:46:46. > :46:49.saying for years, if you have too much legislation you can make
:46:49. > :46:54.things very, very difficult for businesses. Too much regulation
:46:54. > :46:57.makes things more complicated. do you think about the work harder
:46:57. > :47:00.mantra? Businesses in my constituency will be shocked and
:47:00. > :47:05.offended. The reason some of them are sitting on piles of cash is
:47:05. > :47:09.because of a lack of confidence. And uncertainty. Exactly, Andrew.
:47:09. > :47:11.The smaller businesses are saying they can't get credit. They're
:47:11. > :47:15.struggling many of them to get finance out of the banks, despite
:47:15. > :47:18.the reforms that the Government apaifrptly has tried to put in.
:47:19. > :47:21.totally agree that legislation is not what we need. What we need is
:47:21. > :47:26.growth. That comes from businesses. One of the measures I would have
:47:26. > :47:33.suggested one looks at into the future is how we kin sent vice
:47:33. > :47:38.those cash mountains -- can incentivise those cash mountains to
:47:38. > :47:43.be releezed. We used to have the business expansion scheme. One way
:47:43. > :47:47.to do it may be not to lecture businessmen to work harder and
:47:47. > :47:51.encourage them to invest more. would love to see some of those
:47:51. > :47:54.businesses invest in their supply chain, in smaller businesses within
:47:54. > :47:58.their supply environment. Well, supply chain interesting, because I
:47:58. > :48:02.want to move on, don't go away. Talking about the biggest supply
:48:02. > :48:06.chain in the country in a second. In a little over an hour's time the
:48:06. > :48:09.Defence Secretary will be giving a statement to the House of Lords on
:48:09. > :48:13.defence spending. The details are pretty closely guarding, but the
:48:13. > :48:20.one thing to come out over the weekend is that Mr Hammond believes
:48:20. > :48:24.he's found a way of making the �38 billion black hole in the MoD
:48:24. > :48:27.budget disappear. Sent this magic man to Greece, if this is true.
:48:27. > :48:35.Here on the Daily Politics, we're old and suspicious enough to want
:48:35. > :48:37.to wait and read the fine print. Commander John Muxworthy Commander
:48:37. > :48:40.John Muxworthy of the UK National Defence Association, which
:48:40. > :48:46.campaigns on defence spending and strategy is in our Plymouth studio.
:48:46. > :48:51.Thank you for joining us. Do you think, is he going to pull off this
:48:51. > :48:58.magic, is the procurement budget back on track? There's a well known
:48:58. > :49:03.saying that I'll corrupt that it's financial talk that, if you can
:49:03. > :49:07.make anything you like, there's lie, damn lies and Treasury statistics.
:49:07. > :49:10.If they've clear today fine, but what is so damaging is the cuts
:49:10. > :49:15.that they've done to the military, the navy in particular, not just
:49:15. > :49:20.because it's my service, but it's all interdependent. The savings,
:49:20. > :49:22.the cuts are supposed to have provided whether it's �38 billion
:49:23. > :49:27.or whatever, I don't necessarily believe it, but the savings have
:49:27. > :49:30.not been justified. The throw ago way of Ark Royal and the Harriers,
:49:30. > :49:35.for instance, didn't save money. It cost the Libyan campaign three
:49:35. > :49:41.times what it would have cost if we hadn't had that cost. It wasn't a
:49:41. > :49:45.saving. The other thing, if I might add it, when there were the Nimrods
:49:45. > :49:50.that they didn't want and they changed their minds, they threw
:49:50. > :49:55.away �4 billion, now that emaciated the armed forces, so did the
:49:55. > :49:57.carriers and there are no savings. It's not right because defence is
:49:57. > :50:00.the first priority of any Government and so says the Prime
:50:00. > :50:03.Minister. Indeed. Of course, we've just had
:50:03. > :50:07.the police on the programme saying they're the first front line
:50:07. > :50:10.service as well. You all seem to be, any time TV presenters will be
:50:10. > :50:14.claiming to be the first fronts line, though that obviously won't
:50:14. > :50:19.be too credible. You talk about the cuts. As a commander, you're a
:50:19. > :50:23.naval man, you're getting two of the biggest aircraft carriers the
:50:23. > :50:27.Royal Navy has ever had in its long and distinguished history. Thank
:50:27. > :50:32.goodness. You have astute class subMarines, which are state-of-the-
:50:32. > :50:35.art, even Americans don't have subMarines as good of that. You
:50:35. > :50:38.have a destroyer which cost �1 billion a piece, ahead of anything
:50:38. > :50:42.else in the field, what more do you want? It's not nearly enough.
:50:42. > :50:47.There's a three to one ratio in anything in the military. If you
:50:47. > :50:50.wanted a ship on station for some operation, you need three. Because
:50:50. > :50:54.one will be in maintenance, one will be training and it's the same
:50:54. > :50:59.with service personnel. We can't afford three aircraft carriers,
:50:59. > :51:03.commander. We'll probably make do with two, but it's the silly idea
:51:03. > :51:08.that we would then maybe put them into storage. Of course, I missed
:51:08. > :51:11.out of course, you're getting the new jump jet strike 35 fighter as
:51:11. > :51:14.well. That means you won't have to put one in storage, you'll have the
:51:14. > :51:18.two. There's no logic to that. Don't get me... That would take a
:51:18. > :51:23.whole new programme. What I have to say, they're trying to get defence
:51:23. > :51:30.on the cheap. Give me the one example you said of the type 45
:51:30. > :51:35.which are superb ships. Six isn't enough because when SDSR98, the
:51:35. > :51:41.really serious review, because SDR 10 was rubbish, just financially
:51:41. > :51:45.driven, merely financially driven, the navy asked for 14 type 45s,
:51:45. > :51:50.they were cut down to 12, that was rdge. That was going to cost �12
:51:50. > :51:54.billion. In fact, they then changed their minds, the Government changed
:51:54. > :51:58.their minds, not the board, they were well advised, it took three
:51:58. > :52:03.years for that decision, but now we get six. And the price has doubled,
:52:03. > :52:07.not because of the military's fault, but because of Government, the MoD
:52:07. > :52:11.and Treasury constantly changing their minds. All right. Defence is
:52:11. > :52:15.being emaciated. All right. Stick with us. I'm going to speak to the
:52:15. > :52:19.politicians and see what you think. When you were campaigning at the
:52:19. > :52:23.last election, did you think you would be pre-siding in a Government
:52:24. > :52:29.with this cutting down process by 20%, giving us the smallest Army
:52:29. > :52:33.since we fought the Boar war. Which didn't go very well I should point
:52:33. > :52:37.out. Having worked at the Centre for Defence Studies for many years,
:52:37. > :52:43.actually I think we needed a realignment of our capabilities. I
:52:43. > :52:47.appreciate that we had �38 billion of black hole. No-one wants defence
:52:47. > :52:51.to be cut, but we've got to rationalise it and also, in my view,
:52:51. > :52:55.make it much more flexible and nimble for a different set of
:52:55. > :52:59.defence requirements and defence threats that we have. He says it's
:52:59. > :53:03.going to be too small, we won't have enough. To do what? I think we
:53:03. > :53:08.should be looking very clearly at what we need to do in terms of
:53:08. > :53:14.international trade, which is very much the naval sector. We need to
:53:14. > :53:18.be looking to invest more in cyberdefence and we need tone sure
:53:18. > :53:22.that we have a capability that's flexible. We have got a lot of
:53:22. > :53:27.static or have in the past had a lot of static platforms and I think
:53:27. > :53:33.that actually, what we're doing is designing a defence system for the
:53:33. > :53:39.future, but yes, appreciate it's on a budget. We still spend more on
:53:39. > :53:43.defence than 99% of the world's countries. About �40 billion a year.
:53:43. > :53:47.All we ever hear from the military is we want more and we never get a
:53:47. > :53:51.great bang for the buck. Here's a radical idea to get steam coming
:53:51. > :53:56.out of your ears, why do we need three separate services in Britain
:53:56. > :54:01.now, with all the generals and admirals and all their, wing
:54:01. > :54:05.commanders, why don't we have one massive UK/US style marine force
:54:05. > :54:09.that does everything? That would be brilliant. I wish we had the
:54:09. > :54:15.numbers of the US Marine Corps. We have just flogged all our Harriers
:54:15. > :54:20.to them for �1 million an aircraft. Do you know how much it cost us?
:54:20. > :54:24.�20 million. The approach this this has been wrong. The whole country
:54:24. > :54:28.lacks military experience now. 30, 40 years ago, they'd been in World
:54:28. > :54:33.War II, they'd had conscription. Now we don't have it. There's no
:54:34. > :54:37.understanding in politics on the whole, there are a handful of
:54:37. > :54:41.people in Parliament who have got military experience. We, the UK
:54:41. > :54:48.national defence association, with admirals, generals, civilians, all
:54:49. > :54:54.sorts of people, have submitted seven major reports in detail, by
:54:54. > :54:59.experienced people. It's all been turned down and ignored. This is
:54:59. > :55:02.where it is going wrong. One quick one... I'm sorry. I'm sorry to
:55:02. > :55:07.interrupt. We've given you a fair run. I need to move on and get on
:55:07. > :55:13.some other subjects. Thank you for joining us. You're welcome. Let me
:55:13. > :55:19.come to you, aren't you getting concerned that the longer time goes
:55:19. > :55:23.on, the more elusive economic growth seems to be, that you're
:55:23. > :55:27.doing the cuts, though you've only just started, you've put taxes up.
:55:27. > :55:30.We have an economy that's flatlining. We saw some progress
:55:30. > :55:33.last year, which has gone backwards, which is disappointing. There are
:55:33. > :55:38.measures both in the Budget and in the Queen's Speech that will make a
:55:38. > :55:41.difference. There's going to be a significant amount of investment in
:55:41. > :55:44.renewable technologies, in the Green Investment Bank. The
:55:44. > :55:49.Government's bringing forward legislation... You don't expect
:55:49. > :55:52.that to kick off economic growth, do you? I think it will make a real
:55:52. > :55:58.part in some parts of the country. Some of the green jobs we've looked
:55:58. > :56:04.at recently, which you're so proud of, have cost �300,000 a piece.
:56:04. > :56:07.don't know what in particular you're referring to, Andrew. Nick
:56:07. > :56:13.Clegg's regional development fund as well, one of the jobs he created
:56:13. > :56:16.there cost �200,000. That's not going to mop up unemployment.
:56:16. > :56:20.talking about different things now. I'm talking about both. Talking
:56:20. > :56:24.about the investment bank, the Government putting in �1 billion.
:56:24. > :56:27.How many jobs will that create? idea is that will leverage in
:56:27. > :56:31.private investment to create a pot of money that's available for
:56:31. > :56:36.invstment in jobs and new technologies. The solar power
:56:36. > :56:40.people have just said they're pulling out, they've cut the
:56:40. > :56:45.subsidies. That's not what I'm finding in my area. They have said
:56:45. > :56:49.they are pulling out. I am finding... We're going to get this
:56:49. > :56:52.economy growing through a Green Revolution? If you want to know the
:56:52. > :56:56.great renewable story is in my constituency where we have the
:56:56. > :57:00.largest windfarm in the world. 5,000 people have been coming in
:57:00. > :57:04.and out of Ramsgate harbour over the last couple of months and it is
:57:04. > :57:14.going to be, they're looking to reinvest... What are these 5,000
:57:14. > :57:15.
:57:15. > :57:20.people doing, building an off-shore windfarm. They're looking to get
:57:20. > :57:24.more off the back of the reform. is seriously your investment that
:57:24. > :57:27.growth comes back to the economy because of a Green Investment Bank?
:57:27. > :57:33.There are small businesses which we support and have always supported
:57:33. > :57:37.as a coalition. The deregulation... They can't get money to invest.
:57:37. > :57:42.deregulation legislation coming through is going to be focused on
:57:42. > :57:47.them. Then you look at the big infrastructure projects.
:57:47. > :57:53.Electricity market reform will invite a lot of engineering jobs
:57:53. > :57:58.into the sector. What would Labour do to get growth going? We wouldn't
:57:58. > :58:01.have taken so much money out of the economy. And we would put it back
:58:01. > :58:04.in more quickly. The Green Investment Bank is not going to be
:58:04. > :58:07.lending for another five years. We can't wait. We need money in the
:58:07. > :58:11.economy now. Where would you get that money from? It's a mix of
:58:11. > :58:16.first, not rushing to cut rates of tax for the wealthiest and to make
:58:16. > :58:20.sure that we keep money flowing around the economy. You'd borrow
:58:20. > :58:23.more? The borrowing, the starting point, wouldn't start from here,
:58:23. > :58:27.the borrowing is larger now than the Government had planned as a
:58:28. > :58:31.result of their failure. Would you borrow more yes or no? If we
:58:31. > :58:33.started today we would live what we're inheriting from this
:58:33. > :58:38.Government, which is higher borrowing. Would you borrow more or
:58:38. > :58:42.not? I have time for one word? know you're not going to get one
:58:42. > :58:45.word. We'll leave it there. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests.
:58:45. > :58:48.The One o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. Jo is back