:00:42. > :00:47.Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. Is the coalition
:00:47. > :00:50.heading for another rocky ride, this time over workers' rights?
:00:50. > :00:54.Controversial recommendations on the form of Britain's employment
:00:54. > :00:58.laws are set to be published this week. It has been reported that
:00:58. > :01:02.David Cameron may back plans to bring in no fault dismissal. Vince
:01:02. > :01:06.Cable has allegedly called the idea bonkers.
:01:06. > :01:11.Is your head in a spin over tax? Do you know your National Insurance
:01:11. > :01:14.rate from capital gains? Proposals for complete reform of the system
:01:14. > :01:18.today. Could we ever see Labour and the
:01:18. > :01:21.Lib Dems smooching in the rose garden? We will be asking if the
:01:21. > :01:25.two parties could ever form a coalition.
:01:25. > :01:29.And the press of Westminster often get a bad press. Quentin will be
:01:29. > :01:34.delving into their world. Someone once said that the relationship
:01:34. > :01:43.between politicians and journalists was that of a lamp-post and a dog.
:01:43. > :01:48.But who is the lamp-post? I will refrain from answering that!
:01:48. > :01:50.All that in the next hour. With us for a first half is the former
:01:50. > :01:56.Labour foreign secretary and now crossbench peer Lord Owen. Welcome
:01:56. > :01:59.to the programme. Let's talk about the NATO summit in Chicago. World
:01:59. > :02:05.leaders have the meeting there and Afghanistan was top of the agenda,
:02:05. > :02:10.of course. -- have been meeting. They are talking about a road that
:02:10. > :02:14.for withdrawal. Are you confident or in any way reassured, that when
:02:14. > :02:18.the withdrawal comes, 2014 for America and Britain, that
:02:18. > :02:22.Afghanistan will be able to run itself? Afghanistan will be able to
:02:23. > :02:27.run itself but that is not the way we would like to be able to run it.
:02:27. > :02:30.That is the trouble. We have gone in and tried to recreate a new
:02:30. > :02:34.Afghanistan on the basis of Western attitudes to democracy and
:02:34. > :02:38.everything else, and it has not worked, it will not work and it was
:02:38. > :02:41.never going to work. So we have to get out. We are doing our best to
:02:41. > :02:45.put the Afghan Government in a position where they can negotiate
:02:45. > :02:52.with some measure of strength with the Taliban, but they are going to
:02:52. > :02:55.have to live with each other. There are two Afghanistans. The North of
:02:55. > :02:58.Afghanistan will largely be stable. The problem is Helmand Province,
:02:59. > :03:05.the Taliban and the Pakistani military, overtly supporting the
:03:05. > :03:08.Taliban. There are problems there around the USA and Pakistan, as
:03:08. > :03:11.well, recently over closures of that supply routes because of the
:03:11. > :03:16.NATO airstrike which killed lots of Pakistani soldiers. That is going
:03:16. > :03:24.on as well. It is a very important issue. When you are withdrawing,
:03:24. > :03:27.that is when you and your most vulnerable. Every soldier fears
:03:27. > :03:31.withdrawal under fire and you need to have good access routes out. The
:03:31. > :03:36.Russians have been rather helpful. I think a lot of material will go
:03:36. > :03:39.out through the North. It is more expensive, longer, but relying
:03:39. > :03:44.totally on the Pakistanis and coming out through Karachi is much
:03:44. > :03:51.too vulnerable. Yes, and unreliable. What about the issue of Money? The
:03:51. > :03:55.other matter they are talking about is the amount of money. 4 billion a
:03:55. > :03:59.year was talked about to help build up the Afghan security forces and
:03:59. > :04:03.maintain it. Who do you think should pay for that? We made a
:04:03. > :04:08.great mistake really when we first went in. We did not have enough and
:04:08. > :04:14.lightened aid projects. We had Western views about what we were
:04:14. > :04:17.going to do about opium trading and everything like that and we
:04:17. > :04:21.destabilised a lot of their economy. We can help them and we should help
:04:21. > :04:27.them but a lot is now going to depend on the Afghans. I went to
:04:28. > :04:32.that country when I was 21 and I lived in the mountain areas, with
:04:32. > :04:36.the nomad tribes. These are very self-reliant people. They have seen
:04:36. > :04:39.of many empires before and they will see of others. They will not
:04:39. > :04:43.take occupation. They will find a solution. It will be different from
:04:43. > :04:48.what we would come up with, but we can help them at least to have some
:04:48. > :04:50.strength and not have the Taliban overrun Kabul with the disastrous
:04:50. > :04:54.consequences that happened previously. All right. Thank you
:04:54. > :05:00.for that. Instead of our usual quiz we are
:05:00. > :05:04.going to be brave. Oh, no! It is a caption competition. Clock this and
:05:04. > :05:08.send us your caption. This picture has made most of the national
:05:08. > :05:11.newspapers and was taken on Saturday night at Camp David, when
:05:11. > :05:16.world leaders took a break from saving the world economy to watch
:05:16. > :05:20.the Champions League final. Exciting it was, too. Chelsea beat
:05:20. > :05:27.Bayern Munich on penalties, of course. Tweed or email your best
:05:27. > :05:33.suggestions, but keep them respectable! -- tweet. At the end
:05:33. > :05:36.of the show we will read out the best ones.
:05:36. > :05:39.A while ago the venture capitalist and Tory donor Adrian Beecroft was
:05:39. > :05:43.commissioned by Downing Street to come up with ideas to cut business
:05:43. > :05:47.red tape. He delivered his report in October but it has not been
:05:47. > :05:51.published before now. Apparently because some of the suggestions
:05:51. > :05:54.were too controversial. After receiving Freedom of Information
:05:54. > :05:58.requests, the Government has now decided the report will be released
:05:58. > :06:02.this week. The Beecroft Report has been gathering dust on Vince
:06:02. > :06:05.Cable's shelf in the business department for months. But it will
:06:05. > :06:10.be published this week potentially leading to further tensions between
:06:10. > :06:13.coalition partners. Leaks from the report suggested calls for delays
:06:13. > :06:17.on making parental leave more flexible, a cap on the amount of
:06:17. > :06:20.money tribunals can award for loss of earnings, and perhaps most
:06:20. > :06:29.controversially the introduction of so-called no fault dismissal. David
:06:29. > :06:33.Cameron is said to be for this idea, speeding up the pace of reform. But
:06:33. > :06:37.Vince Cable has dismissed no fault dismissal as bonkers and other Lib
:06:37. > :06:43.Dem MPs are just as hostile. The director general of the Institute
:06:43. > :06:46.of Directors, Simon Walker, is in our Westminster studio. Thank you
:06:47. > :06:50.for joining us. Have company bosses been calling for no fault
:06:50. > :06:54.dismissal? I think they have. They are certainly calling for a
:06:54. > :06:57.simplification of the system we have got. Half of our members are
:06:57. > :07:00.discouraged from taking someone on over the past couple of years
:07:00. > :07:05.because they are worried about what will happen if it does not work out.
:07:05. > :07:12.I think it is getting away from yes and them mentality, which applies
:07:12. > :07:14.to so much of business today. -- Ahsan them. We have seen example at
:07:14. > :07:19.General Motors of what you can achieve when you are showing
:07:19. > :07:22.flexibility. I think no fault dismissal, like no fault the 4th,
:07:22. > :07:28.it removes the stigma from a situation where you just cannot get
:07:28. > :07:31.on. -- no fault divorce. No employer wants to get rid of a good
:07:32. > :07:35.and productive employee who is delivering. But people are
:07:35. > :07:41.frightened about taking on someone who does not work out and then
:07:41. > :07:45.being hit with an unfair dismissal claim. On that basis, if you say
:07:45. > :07:48.they are calling for it, are you also saying that you would see a
:07:48. > :07:53.dramatic increase in the number of people being taken on by small and
:07:53. > :07:57.medium-sized firms if this policy came into force? I think we
:07:57. > :08:02.certainly would. We are not talking about firing people at will. Isn't
:08:02. > :08:05.that what it comes to? necessarily. It is an agreed form
:08:05. > :08:15.of compensation if it was decided between you and your and were that
:08:15. > :08:15.
:08:15. > :08:19.it was not working out. There would be a statutory proportion. -- you
:08:19. > :08:25.and your employer. You would not go to court, which costs thousands for
:08:25. > :08:32.the employer, which is quite a deterrent. They know that �10,000
:08:32. > :08:37.of legal fees can be the cost if you go to court. And some firms
:08:37. > :08:40.have gone to court and gone and even though they have won. Do we
:08:40. > :08:48.want a situation where people are frightened to take on people
:08:48. > :08:52.because they are frightened they might not work out? Do you think
:08:52. > :08:55.Vince Cable is an anti- Business Secretary? I don't think so. I
:08:55. > :08:58.think he has some good ideas for business much of the time. I don't
:08:58. > :09:03.think I agree with him on this but I don't know the exact scope of
:09:03. > :09:07.what is in the report because we have not seen it yet. And I don't
:09:07. > :09:10.know the exact scope of his opinion on it. But I am very hopeful that
:09:10. > :09:16.there will be some common ground, perhaps allowing this to apply to
:09:16. > :09:18.companies with fewer than 10 employees. For them it really is a
:09:18. > :09:23.burden having to deal with complicated, bureaucratic
:09:24. > :09:29.regulations. That �10,000 really hurts if you are running a business
:09:29. > :09:32.with just four people and you incur legal fees. Thank you.
:09:32. > :09:38.Chuka Umunna, the shadow Business Secretary, is with us now. Let's
:09:38. > :09:45.pick up on that. You accept that the burden of regulation adds as a
:09:45. > :09:49.deterrent to hiring staff? I will say a couple of things. There are
:09:49. > :09:54.lots of different opinions on this. If you speak to the managing
:09:54. > :10:01.director of Mars, Fiona Dawson, she has said she would not want to see
:10:01. > :10:06.workers' rights being compromised. Yes, but that is a very big company.
:10:06. > :10:10.What about... I was also going to say that before being elected I
:10:10. > :10:13.acted as an employment lawyer and I have acted for many of Simon's
:10:14. > :10:19.members. I don't think people are looking to fire at will, if you
:10:19. > :10:24.like, and that is what no fault dismissal would allow employers to
:10:24. > :10:28.do. We are talking about a lot of people watching this programme.
:10:28. > :10:33.Over 90% of our businesses in this country are small businesses and we
:10:33. > :10:38.have 3.6 million people employed in firms of fewer than 10 employees.
:10:38. > :10:43.This measure would allow people to, regardless of your performance, to
:10:43. > :10:48.fire at will with the payment of a set sum. This is not left or right,
:10:48. > :10:51.it is wrong. And it misses the point. This is being done in the
:10:52. > :10:56.name of growth. If you look at the plethora of different issues
:10:56. > :11:01.affecting businesses... But Simon things it would result in growth if
:11:01. > :11:05.people hire more people. If you are making a marginal decision and you
:11:05. > :11:08.are a small company with 10 or 20 employees, that could be the very
:11:09. > :11:14.thing, that makes you take on an extra couple of people because you
:11:14. > :11:18.will not have to have a big battle if it does not work out. We already
:11:18. > :11:23.have the third most flexible labour market. Only the US and Canada have
:11:23. > :11:28.more flexible regimes than ours. It is the most flexible labour market
:11:28. > :11:31.in Europe. There is no evidence whatsoever, if you listen to
:11:31. > :11:34.leading economists like David Blanchflower, the former member of
:11:35. > :11:41.the monetary committee of the Bank of England, they have all said that
:11:41. > :11:44.there is no evidence of doing away with people's rights helping us out
:11:44. > :11:48.of the double-dip recession and reducing the numbers of people out
:11:49. > :11:54.of work. We should not even be talking about this. There are
:11:54. > :11:58.bigger issues in business. If we look at the CIPD survey on big
:11:58. > :12:03.concerns in business, 50% say that the lack of skills in the work
:12:03. > :12:06.force is their number one issue. 28% of them talk about banking.
:12:06. > :12:09.Let's look at measures that make a difference. A National Insurance
:12:09. > :12:19.broker do much more to encourage micro businesses to take on more
:12:19. > :12:23.employees. -- National Insurance break would do much more. I spoke
:12:23. > :12:28.to businesses in the Midlands, and they said that regulation and
:12:28. > :12:31.labour reforms would make a huge difference. It would make a huge
:12:31. > :12:34.difference to their confidence to invest and employ people. You must
:12:35. > :12:41.admit it must be part of the package and something can be done
:12:41. > :12:45.to make it easier to hire and fire. In terms of the substantial rights,
:12:45. > :12:50.which the Government is talking about doing away with, I don't
:12:50. > :12:52.think they should be doing that because it is wrong. You can reform
:12:52. > :12:56.how the employment tribunals are working, for example. And they have
:12:56. > :13:00.set up a review and I think that is welcome. Looking at procedures is
:13:00. > :13:03.one thing, but tearing away people's basic rights at work is
:13:03. > :13:08.quite another. You agree with Vince Cable that it is bonkers,
:13:08. > :13:12.basically? I think it is bonkers. Do you think it would encourage
:13:12. > :13:16.business to take on more people? You are standing in a very
:13:16. > :13:20.difficult area and it is probably not wise to choose a close friend,
:13:20. > :13:25.contributed to the Tory party, the venture capitalist, to lead this
:13:25. > :13:30.sensitive subject. Chancellor Schroder 10 years ago made the
:13:30. > :13:34.German economy competitive even within the eurozone. He did it by a
:13:34. > :13:39.whole series of measures, broadly by agreement. These sorts of
:13:39. > :13:44.things? Yes. I have been an employer for 17 years. Nobody goes
:13:44. > :13:47.to one of these tribunals easily. You also have to have them for
:13:47. > :13:53.employers on your doorstep all the time, advising you on how to deal
:13:53. > :13:59.with it. -- you also have to have employment lawyers. It is difficult
:14:00. > :14:03.and it has to be done with trade union support and the Institute of
:14:03. > :14:07.Directors, with delicacy and care, but this country has to be more
:14:07. > :14:12.competitive in world markets. Our unit costs have got to come down.
:14:12. > :14:16.We have devalued, which has helped us. We have not had as big an
:14:16. > :14:19.advantage from that devaluation as I had hoped. Our growth has been
:14:19. > :14:24.appalling in the last two years and it has been a very bad thing, the
:14:24. > :14:31.way the economy has dipped down. you do think it would help? I think
:14:31. > :14:39.there are a halt range of measures. These are small but important
:14:39. > :14:45.measures. The fundamental thing is austerity being the dominant
:14:45. > :14:50.element or growth? Demand. That is the problem businesses have. Demand
:14:50. > :14:54.is basic. The thing is about this, it is a distraction. Demand is the
:14:54. > :14:58.problem. We are seeing issues with access to finance, which is why we
:14:58. > :15:03.are looking at plans for British investment bank, which the Chambers
:15:03. > :15:06.of Commerce have argued for. Things like sorting out finance, and
:15:06. > :15:12.National Insurance brick, getting infrastructure spending going,
:15:12. > :15:16.those have been argued for more prominently by business. Not
:15:16. > :15:20.tearing away people's rights. We are not in a double-dip recession
:15:20. > :15:25.because of the unfair dismissal regime. Listening to ministers and
:15:25. > :15:28.the Treasury and Number 10, you would think that because people
:15:28. > :15:33.watching this programme have rights at work that that cause of the
:15:33. > :15:36.problems that we have. So you will not support any of the issues
:15:37. > :15:46.surrounding it no fault dismissal? Bring the consultation period down
:15:47. > :15:49.
:15:49. > :15:54.Lord Owen is right. We have not seen the small print.
:15:54. > :15:56.Is it true that Vince Cable has discussed his views and you know,
:15:56. > :16:01.response to this with Labour, with Ed Miliband?
:16:01. > :16:05.Well, we have discussed it with him in the House of Commons. But what
:16:05. > :16:10.about privately? There are reports now, you know, you said, you agree
:16:10. > :16:15.with with Vince Cable, the idea would be bonkers, so you share
:16:15. > :16:19.views in response to Beecroft. Are you talking to Vince Cable? I speak
:16:19. > :16:22.to Vince regularly, but I know nothing about the conversations to
:16:22. > :16:25.which you have referred now. Would you be pleased if Vince Cable
:16:25. > :16:30.was talking to Ed Miliband about this privately? I think where we
:16:30. > :16:34.agree on things, it is good to work in a cross party basis. We have in
:16:34. > :16:40.too much of a dire situation, looking at the economy, an economy
:16:40. > :16:45.which hasn't grown for so long. Where I can work with Vince and
:16:45. > :16:49.I've done that around executive remuneration and he is struggling
:16:49. > :16:53.to get anywhere with the road blocks to reform in the treasury
:16:53. > :16:58.and Downing Street and I will work with him on this issue.
:16:58. > :17:01.Is that what he said? He is struggling, he is worried that
:17:01. > :17:11.deatial and the coalition -- David Cameron and the coalition will take
:17:11. > :17:11.
:17:11. > :17:17.on these issues? It has become a back water because he doesn't have
:17:17. > :17:23.the backing of treasury. He doesn't have the buy in in Number Ten, they
:17:23. > :17:30.are wedded to the old thatcher right orthodoxies.
:17:30. > :17:33.Now, with fresh elections in Greece called for 17th June, but with the
:17:33. > :17:37.crisis showing no signs of abating, spare a thought for my counterpart
:17:37. > :17:40.on the Greek version of the Daily Politics. Here she is, on Focus TV,
:17:40. > :17:42.trying to keep the peace in a discussion between Petros
:17:42. > :17:52.Tatsopoulos from the left-wing party Syriza and Stelios Stavridis
:17:52. > :17:52.
:17:52. > :18:40.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 48 seconds
:18:40. > :18:44.Well, I'm thankful to say that hasn't happened to me yet. Chuka
:18:44. > :18:49.Umunna left happy and Lord Owen is still with us. Here to talk about
:18:49. > :18:53.the situation in the eurozone and Greece, do you think Greece will be
:18:53. > :18:59.in the eurozone by the time of the next election? I doubt it. I think
:18:59. > :19:04.quite a few country, we will have a eurozone. Germany won't go back to
:19:04. > :19:09.the deutschemark. There will be a eurozone, like economies, the
:19:09. > :19:14.present variation within the eurozone of the economies I think
:19:14. > :19:18.is probably unsustainable. I am against us predicting what will
:19:18. > :19:21.happen. The Greek people are having an election. They will fight
:19:21. > :19:24.against austerity. That's the big issue.
:19:24. > :19:27.Should it be seen as a referendum in the way David Cameron
:19:27. > :19:31.characterised it as to whether or not they stay in the euro? David
:19:31. > :19:37.Cameron needs to be careful. His job is to look after British
:19:37. > :19:40.interests. It is not to grap headlines. -- grab headlines. The
:19:40. > :19:45.thing Europe wants to know from Britain and America, what structure
:19:45. > :19:48.from Europe would be both in the interests of the eurozone and in
:19:48. > :19:52.the interests of the single market. The single market is very important
:19:52. > :19:59.to the UK. In fairness to Angela Merkel, she said she understands
:19:59. > :20:06.we're not going to go for a federalist. There is no majority
:20:06. > :20:09.for federalism. This in or out issue, we need to restructure the
:20:09. > :20:12.European future and there will have to be a referendum and fairly soon
:20:12. > :20:16.in this country, but it will be on a very different question to the
:20:16. > :20:20.one of in, out. What would be the question be on
:20:20. > :20:24.then? I'm clear. It is a British interest to remain in the single
:20:24. > :20:29.market and the single market ought to embrace and does already embrace,
:20:29. > :20:38.more than just the EU. Norway is a member of the economic area. I
:20:38. > :20:42.would like to see Turkey becoming part of this. At the moment it is a
:20:42. > :20:46.a associate member. We could have them in the single market and it
:20:46. > :20:49.would be an ang advantage. -- advantage. I want to see the
:20:49. > :20:54.British Government talking more about what Britain is going to
:20:54. > :21:01.contribute to the problems, in some sense we are right to say, "The
:21:01. > :21:05.eurozone is yours. Do what you like with it. "I thought it was flawed.
:21:05. > :21:09.I campaigned against it when Tony Blair tried to take us in. We
:21:09. > :21:15.ensured he couldn't win a Forum because public opinion stayed
:21:15. > :21:19.against it. Public opinion will not take nuse a federalist -- us into a
:21:19. > :21:22.federal Europe or a eurozone. The Government would argue that
:21:22. > :21:26.they are to some extent shouting from the sidelines because what
:21:26. > :21:31.happens to Greece, will affect British interests. If Greece does
:21:31. > :21:34.fall out of the euro and it is disorderly and there are the issues
:21:34. > :21:37.we have talked about which are contagion. It is not standing and
:21:37. > :21:43.trying to be heard on a subject that wouldn't affect Britain?
:21:43. > :21:47.he had a very good opportunity now in G8, in Washington in the Camp
:21:47. > :21:56.David and also in the margins of the NATO meeting in Chicago to have
:21:56. > :22:03.quiet talks with Angela Merkel inside the eurozone. It tale ci and
:22:03. > :22:06.erm erm -- Italy and Germany. He had an opportunity to talk to the
:22:06. > :22:11.new president of France who is against the undue austerity. He
:22:11. > :22:15.wants a balance between austerity and growth. Quiet diplomacy, making
:22:15. > :22:18.sure they understand what Britain is ready to put up with, otherwise
:22:18. > :22:23.we're going to have a nasty argument inside the European Union
:22:23. > :22:29.in the next two or three months. We will be talking about this over
:22:29. > :22:32.the coming weeks. The Parliamentary Commissioner for
:22:32. > :22:37.Standards, Sir John Lyon launched an investigation into whether
:22:37. > :22:44.Jeremy Hunt failed to register several donations from media
:22:44. > :22:49.companies. Ben Geoghegan join us now. Can you give us more detail,
:22:49. > :22:53.Ben? This goes back to the days when the the Conservatives were in
:22:53. > :22:55.opposition. There were a series of meetings set-up by private
:22:55. > :23:00.companies, media companies, companies in the creative
:23:00. > :23:05.industries and they were set-up in order, it seems, to brief the
:23:05. > :23:11.Conservative frontbench teams about developments in the industry. Now,
:23:11. > :23:15.one person who was at eight of these meetings was Ed Vaizey, Mr
:23:15. > :23:20.Hunt's deputy and in the register of financial interests, he declares
:23:20. > :23:25.these various meetings and he says that they amounted in value to
:23:25. > :23:28.about �27,000. Now these are not cash donations, but the cost that
:23:28. > :23:33.it would have been for the companies to set-up these meetings.
:23:33. > :23:37.And he also says that Jeremy Hunt was at these meetings with him. But
:23:37. > :23:42.when you look at Jeremy Hunt's entries, these meetings do not
:23:42. > :23:46.appear and so, that led to a complaint a few weeks ago by Steve
:23:46. > :23:50.McCabe and it is that the commissioner is looking into.
:23:50. > :23:55.So more pressure on Jeremy Hunt and coming weeks before he is due to
:23:55. > :23:59.appear, no it must be days before he is due to appear at the Leveson
:23:59. > :24:03.Inquiry? Yes, Adam Smith will be appearing this week and Labour have
:24:03. > :24:07.been calling on the Culture Secretary to resign saying that he
:24:08. > :24:12.has probably misled Parliament and so on. Remember though, that he
:24:12. > :24:17.thinks that he has acted with integrity. On this issue about the
:24:17. > :24:22.declaration in the register, he says that he only went to three out
:24:22. > :24:25.of these eight meetings and he wants to amend the register so it
:24:25. > :24:33.seems as though his argument will be there has been some kind of
:24:33. > :24:37.mistake in recording the details. Ben Gay dan, Ben Geoghegan, thank
:24:37. > :24:42.you. Let's look at May 2015. What's that,
:24:42. > :24:48.I see, Ed Miliband and Tim Farron walking through the Rose Garden?
:24:48. > :24:57.Surely not. The two parties appear to be at jagger's drawn or --
:24:58. > :25:05.May 2010 and everything in the garden, was, you know, rosy. It
:25:05. > :25:12.seemed like everyone agreed with Nick. Well, almost everyone.
:25:12. > :25:13.Ma Vast majority, dislike and despise the Liberal Democrats.
:25:13. > :25:15.LAUGHTER You might, Ian, but the boss
:25:15. > :25:19.doesn't. I hope the Liberal Democrats will
:25:19. > :25:22.recognise that the Government is taking the country in a a direction
:25:22. > :25:25.which many people did not vote at the general election. I hope they
:25:25. > :25:27.will come and talk to us and work against the direction of this
:25:27. > :25:30.Government. Senior Labour figures are reaching
:25:30. > :25:34.out to the Lib Dems in an attempt to find the kind of common ground
:25:34. > :25:38.which could pave the way to a coalition should the next election
:25:38. > :25:44.produce a hung parliament. The thing is, there is more than a few
:25:44. > :25:48.Lib Dems out there, who are ready to play ball. Richard Grayson is a
:25:48. > :25:53.speech writer to Charles Kennedy. Most recently however, his policy
:25:53. > :25:57.input has been to the Labour Party. I accepted an invitation from Ed
:25:57. > :26:02.Miliband after a discussion with him to encourage Lib Dems to have
:26:02. > :26:06.dialogue with Labour, that happened. We talked to people like Liam Byrne,
:26:06. > :26:11.we talked to a number of other Labour MPs in policy groups so
:26:11. > :26:16.there was a dialogue between grass- roots Liberal Democrats and people
:26:16. > :26:23.at a fairly senior level of the Labour Party. It is not just about
:26:23. > :26:28.shared values, this is about power. Ar hung parliament again -- a hung
:26:28. > :26:31.parliament again is a likely prospect, I think. And that means
:26:31. > :26:37.the Liberal Democrats, although they will suffer badly at the polls,
:26:37. > :26:41.could play a role and their natural place, their natural allies
:26:41. > :26:44.historically have been Labour. the Lib Dems get into bed with with
:26:44. > :26:51.Labour, what does that mean for the future of the party and its leader?
:26:51. > :26:58.I think it will be difficult for Nick to do a deal with Labour. I
:26:58. > :27:02.think that's partly because he is just ideologicalically closer to
:27:02. > :27:05.the Conservatives. And maybe there does have to be a change in
:27:05. > :27:09.leadership, but strange things happen in politics.
:27:09. > :27:15.Well, I can't see how the Lib Dem, the current Lib Dem leadership,
:27:15. > :27:18.having sold the past to the Tories on this right-wing agenda can do
:27:18. > :27:23.another backflip and go in with Labour. So I would have thought
:27:23. > :27:28.they will go in one direction and the party will resume its historic
:27:28. > :27:32.radical liberal tradition and go to look for alliances with progressive
:27:32. > :27:35.forces particularly Labour after the next election.
:27:35. > :27:40.Any alliance with Labour could come at a high cost to the party's
:27:40. > :27:46.current leadership. But would it be worth the price? I think for the
:27:46. > :27:50.Liberal Democrats, we have always wanted to influence policy and see
:27:50. > :27:54.that centre-left policies get implemented. Sadly we are
:27:54. > :27:58.influencing policy on the margins and collaborating with a broadly
:27:58. > :28:01.centre-right economic agenda at the moment. If we want to see our most
:28:01. > :28:05.important policies implemented, then we have to have dialogue with
:28:05. > :28:13.Labour. Tony Blair and Paddy Ashdown trying to work together in
:28:13. > :28:17.1997, but their parties won't wear it. The lib-lab pact of the 70s and
:28:17. > :28:26.that didn't work. A deal with Labour in 2015? Well, three years a
:28:26. > :28:29.long time, but it is a work in Phil Collins joins us now. Looking
:28:29. > :28:36.to your crystal ball, could you see Labour and the Liberal Democrats
:28:36. > :28:39.doing a deal ahead of or into the next election? Not ahead of, but I
:28:39. > :28:43.could see it being a necessity after the election. There is a
:28:43. > :28:48.couple of long-term trends that make hung parliaments more likely.
:28:48. > :28:54.The two main parties, Labour and Conservative don't get as large a
:28:54. > :28:59.share as they used to in the 50s and 60s and there are nowhere near
:28:59. > :29:03.as many marginals. So it is much harder to win. And that makes a
:29:03. > :29:10.hung parliament a possibility and the arth ma particular looks like
:29:10. > :29:18.it is -- arithmetic looks like it will be a coalition. If the ar rith
:29:19. > :29:21.ma particulars -- arth ma particulars work. We heard from one
:29:21. > :29:25.Labour MP saying how much distrust there is, but there is dislike and
:29:25. > :29:28.contempt from senior Labour figures for Liberal Democrats or is that
:29:28. > :29:34.just public rhetoric and actually they would be happy to work with
:29:34. > :29:40.them? Well, both things are true. There is serious dislike... Does
:29:40. > :29:43.that not prevent that coalition? it dissipates quickly if the
:29:43. > :29:46.prospect of power is looming. For the Liberal Democrats there would
:29:46. > :29:51.be something remarkable on the table, they would have ten years in
:29:51. > :29:54.Government. People in their early 20s who would say, I have known
:29:54. > :29:58.nothing but a Liberal Democrat Government all my chance. For
:29:58. > :30:00.Labour, there would be a chance to come back. That sense will change
:30:00. > :30:05.if that were the option on the table.
:30:05. > :30:09.Would it be possible if Nick Clegg was still leader of the Liberal
:30:09. > :30:11.Democrat Party, would it be the case, I am not asking for
:30:11. > :30:14.predictions of how well or not the Liberal Democrats will do, but
:30:14. > :30:23.would it have to be a different person at the helm of the Liberal
:30:23. > :30:26.Probably, but I don't think one should get tough on this issue. A
:30:26. > :30:32.much more important thing is what is happening with the British
:30:32. > :30:35.economy. I think that if you have the opportunity to form a
:30:36. > :30:40.Government, and say Labour has the largest number of MPs, with the
:30:40. > :30:45.largest number of votes, they will obviously work with whoever is most
:30:45. > :30:49.compatible. That would probably be almost certainly the Liberal
:30:49. > :30:56.Democrat. But they have been at opposing end of the spectrum
:30:56. > :31:00.economically, haven't they? It is an aberration. On whose part? The
:31:00. > :31:04.Liberal Democrats? A did not join the Liberal Democrats, but I worked
:31:04. > :31:12.with them. I was part of the Government, and foreign secretary
:31:12. > :31:16.at the time of the Lib-Lab pact. There was a fairly good and open
:31:16. > :31:19.relationship at that time. David Steel chose to end it before the
:31:19. > :31:24.election and he thought that was an important thing and to this day he
:31:24. > :31:29.does. I don't think it is necessary to see this coalition carrying on
:31:29. > :31:32.for full five years. They could split away, while still supporting
:31:33. > :31:36.the Conservatives. Or if they found on the economy that the
:31:36. > :31:41.Conservative policies were so antipathetic to them, then they
:31:41. > :31:45.might decide to allow Labour to come in. We have a fixed term
:31:45. > :31:50.Parliament. Tories talk as though David Cameron can have a general
:31:50. > :31:53.election whenever he wants, but he cannot. I think this coalition is
:31:53. > :31:58.coming under ever increasing strain. They have failed on the basic issue
:31:59. > :32:03.of the economy. We are now in a double-dip recession. In my view,
:32:03. > :32:08.we probably have six months more of the general public giving them the
:32:08. > :32:11.best... Of then you think it will fall apart? If they are still in
:32:11. > :32:15.economic difficulty in six months' time, there will be big questions
:32:15. > :32:21.about whether or not this coalition can continue. Just listening to
:32:21. > :32:28.that, at in terms of whether or not the coalition can last until 2015,
:32:28. > :32:32.on this core economic message, if Liberal Democrats signed up to
:32:32. > :32:37.austerity, then they could have an agreement with Labour? I do. Nick
:32:37. > :32:41.Clegg often says that �7 out of every �8 would have been cut under
:32:41. > :32:45.Alistair Darling's plan. You have to think of this from the Liberal
:32:45. > :32:50.Democrat point of view. They don't see themselves as an adjunct to
:32:50. > :32:53.another party, in complete agreement with either of them, but
:32:53. > :32:56.as the liberalising influence on them. I do not see this as an
:32:56. > :33:01.overwhelming barrier to them changing sides and we will probably
:33:01. > :33:05.have to get used to that. briefly, Ed Miliband and Vince
:33:05. > :33:10.Cable's conversation? Not surprising? Not at all. I think
:33:10. > :33:20.they share a lot, as people in lots of parties do. And a good social
:33:20. > :33:25.democrat. We can no longer assume that one party will be elected with
:33:25. > :33:28.an overall working majority. The last election, I was part of a
:33:28. > :33:31.group which had a website dealing with a hung Parliament. It was
:33:31. > :33:35.obvious it was going to be a hung Parliament for three months before
:33:35. > :33:41.the election. To David Cameron's credit, he offered a generous offer
:33:41. > :33:47.of coalition and Miliband would do the same. Thank you. We let you go
:33:48. > :33:52.at this stage. We have got VAT, National Insurance,
:33:52. > :33:55.CJ tea and a whole alphabet spaghetti of taxes. Enough to leave
:33:55. > :34:00.even Carol Vorderman confused, bemused and discombobulated. They
:34:00. > :34:06.are trying to make the trip up! How about simplifying everything to the
:34:06. > :34:11.30% rate of income tax? And omnitax, if you like. The Institute of
:34:11. > :34:20.Directors has suggested just that. Mathew Sinclair is from the
:34:21. > :34:25.taxpayers Alliance. Isn't it just and fair in the end to have this? -
:34:25. > :34:29.- not fair. If you earn twice as much, you pay twice as much. If you
:34:29. > :34:36.earn 10 times as much, you pay 10 times as much, and that is what
:34:36. > :34:41.would beat the case under our system. -- would be the case. It
:34:41. > :34:46.would be advantages to the poorest. What is really not fair, is that
:34:46. > :34:51.people, by paying in a certain way, through a company, through share
:34:51. > :34:59.buy-backs, pay less. The critical thing is to have a single tax rate
:34:59. > :35:06.which applies however your income comes. However that income finds
:35:06. > :35:12.its weight to the end consumer. higher earners benefit more than
:35:12. > :35:19.lower owners, don't they? Yes, they do. They deserve to pay twice as
:35:19. > :35:22.much. We are talking about a proportionate tax. This term can
:35:22. > :35:26.throw people but we are still talking about a tax system that
:35:26. > :35:29.would have a very heavy contribution. I think that we
:35:29. > :35:33.should be looking towards a system that would make sure that everybody
:35:33. > :35:43.pays less. That is why we should not be going down at the root of
:35:43. > :35:46.
:35:46. > :35:49.revenue neutral reform. -- down the route. The real basic rate is not
:35:49. > :35:53.30%. Including both forms of National Insurance, it is 40% and
:35:53. > :35:58.we think that should be cut to 30% to give everyone a better deal.
:35:58. > :36:02.Thank you for joining us. We are joined by the Lib Dem Lorely Burt,
:36:02. > :36:09.James Morris from the Conservatives and their Alan Sugar from Labour.
:36:10. > :36:14.Is that music to your ears? -- Gavin Shuker from Labour.
:36:14. > :36:17.really. They want to raise the personal tax allowance even more to
:36:17. > :36:21.�10,000, which is building on what the Chancellor announced in the
:36:21. > :36:25.Budget. They want to devolve financial autonomy to local
:36:25. > :36:28.authorities and allow local authorities to build up more tax.
:36:28. > :36:33.Just on the income tax rate, is that something you would like to
:36:33. > :36:36.see in theory? Some sort of flat rate of tax? I think it is an
:36:36. > :36:40.aspiration over the long term. We have a lot of very profound
:36:40. > :36:45.difficulties in the economy at the moment that we need to deal with.
:36:45. > :36:47.Getting the deficit under control, dealing with the eurozone crisis.
:36:47. > :36:50.In the long term it is an aspiration and I would be
:36:51. > :36:54.interested to read the detailed recommendations in the report.
:36:54. > :36:58.Would it help the economy to do something as radical on income tax?
:36:58. > :37:03.There are other things that we can do. We cannot that the supply-side
:37:03. > :37:07.of the economy. I think we need to focus on employment law. What do
:37:07. > :37:11.you think about having a simpler tax system? Gordon Brown was always
:37:12. > :37:16.criticised for having an over the complicated tax system. Is it the
:37:16. > :37:20.Government's role to redistribute at that level? The key question is
:37:20. > :37:24.what would it do for the economy and on that question, I think
:37:24. > :37:28.Matthew is out of touch. The report is saying that we should cut back
:37:28. > :37:31.the size of the state. He is saying put more money in people's pockets.
:37:31. > :37:35.If more money is in their pockets and they can spend more of their
:37:35. > :37:39.income, doesn't that help the economy? Chuka Umunna has just said
:37:39. > :37:44.the real problem is demand. Doesn't that boost demand? Absolutely,
:37:44. > :37:52.which is why you need to target tax decreases in areas where it get
:37:52. > :37:56.people spending. Reducing VAT, for instance. A lot of people out there
:37:56. > :37:59.now feel that because they are paying National Insurance and
:37:59. > :38:02.income tax and various other stealth taxes, that they are not
:38:02. > :38:07.keeping enough of their own income to spend up there. We are talking
:38:07. > :38:10.about how you divide up the pie, and we can have that conversation,
:38:10. > :38:20.but the Tax Payers Alliance is saying that we should reduce the
:38:20. > :38:21.
:38:21. > :38:23.price so extremely that public services will go. -- the eye.
:38:23. > :38:31.want those with the broadest shoulders paying the greatest
:38:31. > :38:35.proportion of tax. So a flat tax? understand that it will cost �50
:38:35. > :38:38.billion to implement, which goes straight into the deficit, so I
:38:38. > :38:43.don't think that is a particularly good idea. I think we should have
:38:43. > :38:46.fairer taxes for people on higher earnings. And lower taxes for
:38:46. > :38:53.people on lower earnings. It does not fit in with that. Which tax
:38:53. > :38:58.would you get rid of? National Insurance? Golly, I don't know! Yes,
:38:58. > :39:03.why not? National Insurance does not do what it says on the tin. It
:39:03. > :39:08.does not do what it was set up to do. Would you get rid of it?
:39:08. > :39:12.necessarily. We need to reduce business tax is much more radically,
:39:12. > :39:16.corporation tax, which we have already reduced. I think there is
:39:16. > :39:20.more scope for further reduction in corporation tax. Would you like to
:39:20. > :39:25.see more wealth taxes? More tax on unearned wealth, as they
:39:25. > :39:29.characterise it, rather than on income? I prefer that to the system
:39:29. > :39:33.we have at the moment, giving a tax break to millionaires were people
:39:33. > :39:37.on low incomes are suffering. Conservatives are suffering because
:39:37. > :39:41.that rhetoric has just come home. The reality was that in the Budget
:39:41. > :39:46.we brought in stamp duty on properties over �2 billion and we
:39:46. > :39:50.are bringing in more taxes than were ever raised by the 50p rate. -
:39:50. > :39:53.- over �2 million. We need to reduce the rate of income tax that
:39:53. > :39:57.low earners have to pay and that should be the focus and it is the
:39:57. > :40:01.focus of the coalition Government. But you want to see more wealth
:40:01. > :40:06.taxes, don't you? We don't want people to be punitively taxed, but
:40:06. > :40:11.I think everyone should pay their tax fairly. Just going on to this
:40:11. > :40:15.mythical 45p, in actual fact, the OBR have calculated that our tax
:40:16. > :40:20.changes will increase the amount of money that the rich pay by five
:40:20. > :40:24.times. Labour only introduced it a few days before the last general
:40:24. > :40:29.election, and quite a cynical attempt, I think, to put us in a
:40:29. > :40:33.difficult position. The key question is getting growth going in
:40:33. > :40:39.the economy and if you can do that in a fair way, let's do it, but
:40:39. > :40:44.this is not the right way. Traffic wardens, estate agents, second-hand
:40:44. > :40:49.car dealers, who is missing? Journalists and politicians! You
:40:49. > :40:55.can find both of these in abundance in the dark corridors of
:40:55. > :40:59.Westminster. Is it a world of backbiting, schmoozing, scheming?
:40:59. > :41:04.If anybody knows, Quentin Letts does.
:41:04. > :41:07.J is for a journalist. Parliament and the media, not an easy marriage.
:41:08. > :41:12.Someone once said that the relationship between politicians
:41:12. > :41:22.and journalists was that of a lamp- post and a dog. But who is the
:41:22. > :41:36.
:41:36. > :41:40.lamp-post? A little light reading. This is the
:41:40. > :41:45.BBC office in the House of Commons press gallery. Many of the offices
:41:45. > :41:48.are shared. The Financial Times used to share with the News of the
:41:48. > :41:53.World! It is a right little rabbit warren of offices. Not much has
:41:53. > :42:01.changed since Charles Dickens worked here as a parliamentary
:42:01. > :42:06.reporter in 1831. Around 200 media swaps toil at the Palace of
:42:06. > :42:09.Westminster, including little old me. I am a gallery reporter. That
:42:09. > :42:13.means I sit in House of Commons gallery, watching events. Others
:42:13. > :42:19.are in the lobby. That means that they have more intimate access with
:42:19. > :42:23.MPs. The lobby! They are a secretive lot. The chief privilege
:42:23. > :42:27.of being a lobby reporter is having access to the House of Commons
:42:27. > :42:31.lobby just outside the chamber, where they can mix with MPs and be
:42:31. > :42:35.told things on lobby terms. We don't get to know who said what.
:42:35. > :42:45.The other privilege of being a lobby reporter, daily briefings
:42:45. > :42:45.
:42:45. > :42:54.from 10 Downing Street. Hello? Two pints of something very bitter,
:42:54. > :42:59.please, and a discreet table. Thank you very much. Much of our work is
:42:59. > :43:04.done around the Westminster village in pubs like this, maybe. A quiet
:43:04. > :43:14.pint with a disgruntled former minister, or some thrusting Schema,
:43:14. > :43:17.
:43:17. > :43:23.and you can learn interesting You could argue that journalists
:43:23. > :43:28.are sly, skivvy creatures, and you could be right. -- scurvy. But
:43:28. > :43:38.could the same adjectives not be applied to politicians, too? Set a
:43:38. > :43:39.
:43:39. > :43:43.thief to catch a Thief, that is the How very informative, as always,
:43:43. > :43:50.from Quentin Letts! Do you describe journalists as sly, skivvy
:43:51. > :43:56.creatures? Not to their faces! -- scurvy. To paraphrase, some of my
:43:56. > :44:02.best friends are journalists and we do get along. Do you have lunches
:44:02. > :44:06.with journalists? No, but I am open to invitations! I am sure we can
:44:06. > :44:11.set something up! Are you friendly with journalists? Do you avoid
:44:11. > :44:14.them? Of course one is friendly to journalists. It is an important
:44:14. > :44:18.part of the parliamentary progress and it has a long history and you
:44:18. > :44:23.have to be careful about what you say. Do you give stories to them?
:44:23. > :44:27.Certainly not. Nobody is going to take you out for lunch! What about
:44:27. > :44:31.you? Do you give stories to journalists if you go out with
:44:31. > :44:36.them? Absolutely. I am just waiting for the drinking invitations to
:44:36. > :44:39.come rolling in. I generally get my phone calls from my favourite
:44:39. > :44:43.journalist when I am in the middle of doing the shopping in a
:44:43. > :44:47.supermarket, you know. You just say the first thing that comes into
:44:47. > :44:53.your head and afterwards you wonder if you should have said it! They
:44:53. > :44:56.have worked out the best time to call you! They have! The Leveson
:44:56. > :45:00.Inquiry has put a serious spotlight on the relationship between
:45:00. > :45:04.journalists and politicians. Do you think it will fundamentally change
:45:04. > :45:10.that relationship? I don't think fundamentally. There is a parallel
:45:10. > :45:14.with the MP's expenses crisis. The pendulum swing, the clear up, and
:45:14. > :45:21.then interest goes down. It may be the same as the leather CERN
:45:21. > :45:26.inquiry clears itself up. I think there ever -- as the Leveson
:45:26. > :45:30.Inquiry clears itself up. I think that we will have to respond to the
:45:30. > :45:34.Leveson Inquiry. The point is that you do not want to be transparent.
:45:35. > :45:37.We are not supposed to reveal our sources. From the public point of
:45:37. > :45:41.view, I think the Leveson Inquiry is raising the issue of the
:45:41. > :45:44.relationship between politics and the media, which is helpful in a
:45:44. > :45:49.sense of shining a light and getting transparency on the issues
:45:49. > :45:54.that we need to confront. Now we go to College Green, where we have
:45:54. > :45:59.bagged ourselves a couple of sly, scurvy creatures. Actually they are
:45:59. > :46:07.very nice! And I don't think they have got scurvy. Helen Lewis from
:46:07. > :46:11.the New Statesman and the editor of James, David Cameron shouting at
:46:11. > :46:15.the Germans, are they going to listen to a British Prime Minister
:46:15. > :46:19.and what to do about the the eurozone? David Cameron on the one
:46:19. > :46:24.hand pressuring Angela Merkel to do more and on the other hand trying
:46:24. > :46:28.to do her dirty work in saying to the Greeks if you vote for the
:46:28. > :46:33.anti-bail out parties. What the Europeans want the message to the
:46:33. > :46:36.Greeks, if you vote for an anti- bail out party, you are voting to
:46:36. > :46:41.leave a currency that you don't want to leave.
:46:41. > :46:49.When it comes to the Greek election in a month. Is David Cameron in a
:46:49. > :46:53.place where he can't do anything except shout? I don't think we can.
:46:53. > :46:57.Merkel's intervention in Greece goes down badly. She is seen as a
:46:57. > :47:01.domineering German figure. Cameron outside of a currency and Britain
:47:01. > :47:05.with its detached relationship from the eurozone is more able to make
:47:05. > :47:09.the arguments to the Greeks. How well they will go down in Athens
:47:09. > :47:12.remains to be seen. The view of the of the euro crisis,
:47:12. > :47:16.as far as Britain is concern, is the worry about a run on the banks.
:47:16. > :47:19.Is that where the concern should be? Well, it is hard to look
:47:19. > :47:22.forward when everything is up in the air. We have seen a lot of talk
:47:22. > :47:27.about the possible default and the elections will be the next thing
:47:27. > :47:31.that people are looking to, but the trouble is you have got a situation
:47:31. > :47:33.where Nobel prize winning economists don't have an idea. No
:47:33. > :47:38.one knows what is going to happen next.
:47:38. > :47:42.They are trying to look at how to to boost growth, that's the other
:47:42. > :47:46.part of this equation in the eurozone to make countries more
:47:46. > :47:49.competitive and here with the Beecroft proposals due out this
:47:49. > :47:53.week, is this another focus of coalition tension that will be
:47:53. > :47:57.difficult for David Cameron? think it sounds - it sounds like it
:47:57. > :48:04.will be kicked into fairly long grass. Vince Cable's remarks have
:48:04. > :48:09.been strong and the the noises coming out of his coughs calling it
:48:09. > :48:14."bonkers" the more contentious suggestions will be shelved and a
:48:14. > :48:18.few of the smaller ones will be put through.
:48:18. > :48:23.Do you think it will be shelved? We keep hearing that David Cameron is
:48:23. > :48:29.favourable to the ideas. The controversial ones being no no no
:48:29. > :48:34.fault dismissal? The interesting thing is this has been a long
:48:34. > :48:37.running row between Vince Cable and Steve Hilton. Steve Hilton has left.
:48:37. > :48:42.In the last few days people close to Nick Clegg and David Cameron
:48:42. > :48:47.have been suggesting there will be a more co-operative attitude to
:48:47. > :48:53.coalition growth. There will be some deregulation and maybe some
:48:53. > :48:58.things to promote infrastructural spending. Like project bonds for
:48:58. > :49:02.Britain. I think what is is interesting, Vince is out of tune
:49:02. > :49:06.with the mood music that Nick Clegg is pushing. It will be interesting
:49:06. > :49:14.to see if Clegg pushes Cable back and bit and tries to take on on
:49:14. > :49:18.some of the things in Beecroft. When you mention the Beecroft
:49:19. > :49:24.report, you get this reaction from the Liberal Democrats now.
:49:24. > :49:29.Helen, we were talking about chillax, about how hard the Prime
:49:29. > :49:37.Minister is working. A bit unfortunate. At one time it was to
:49:38. > :49:47.his advantage to look like a normal bloke. You heard William Hague
:49:48. > :49:48.
:49:48. > :49:51.saying bosses must work hard. You hear about him him playing Fruit
:49:51. > :49:54.Ninja and having a nap. People don't work at their best when they
:49:54. > :50:01.are spending all hours of the day. On the other hand, I think for him,
:50:01. > :50:06.this has been an image problem. Has it become an image problem,
:50:06. > :50:10.James? People are thinking he is complacent or is it a timing issue?
:50:11. > :50:14.There is a perception problem. Our attitudes to politicians is
:50:14. > :50:19.contradictory. We want them to be well-balanced normal people with a
:50:19. > :50:22.family life and want them to work 24/7 and strain every sinew, but
:50:23. > :50:27.there is an issue that, Cameron needs to do more to show that he is
:50:27. > :50:32.getting a grip and it comes back to this competence question which has
:50:32. > :50:38.been rolling and riling in the coalition in the last few months.
:50:38. > :50:43.Now, just time before we go to give you the results of our caption
:50:43. > :50:50.competition. This was the picture and here are some of our favourites.
:50:50. > :50:58.I did love these! From Calum May, "Word leaders await
:50:58. > :51:06.the election results.". David Cameron comes in on top in G8 Fruit
:51:06. > :51:15.Ninja knockout. Angela Merkel a distant seventh. Trevor Ottaway,
:51:15. > :51:20."Put your hand up if you are a posh boy." Rich Williams, "Joy for
:51:20. > :51:25.Cameron as Boris gets run over by a new Routemaster bus.". What do you
:51:26. > :51:29.think? I was worried about how many Tottenham Hotspur fans weren't
:51:29. > :51:32.happy because they were looking for another result. We have got to
:51:32. > :51:38.expect politicians to relax. Prime Ministers need to relax. People
:51:38. > :51:42.need them to relax in order to make the right decisions tor the country.
:51:42. > :51:46.-- doctor the country. What do you think? The only thought
:51:46. > :51:50.I was was maybe Theresa May had booked the return tickets back to
:51:50. > :51:56.the UK and they got an extra day out of it!
:51:56. > :51:59.Very good. Very good. I was going to go with the Fruit Ninja. Showing
:51:59. > :52:07.that football match, you know, with Cameron and Merkel sort of standing
:52:07. > :52:12.next to each other, perhaps was not the best thing for the entente
:52:12. > :52:16.cordiale, but it is only a game! On the entente cordiale, we spoke
:52:16. > :52:19.to the two journalists about the situation in the eurozone. Do you
:52:19. > :52:24.think David Cameron's strategy of standing outside the euro and
:52:24. > :52:27.trying to tell them what to do now is going to do anything? I think it
:52:27. > :52:31.is the right approach. Britain's not in the eurozone and we are
:52:31. > :52:35.approaching a crisis point. We are in the middle of a crisis. We need
:52:35. > :52:39.to do everything we can to get the eurozone stabilised and he is right
:52:39. > :52:42.to say what he is saying and the most important thing is we need to
:52:42. > :52:45.protect Britain's national interests and be prepared for any
:52:45. > :52:49.eventuality. How can they protect the national
:52:49. > :52:52.interests? On the broad point, Britain is an outward facing
:52:52. > :52:56.country. We need to be continuing to drive exports to emerging
:52:56. > :53:01.economies. Well, that's long-term. What can
:53:01. > :53:06.they do now? If Greece drops out of the euro and there is a run on the
:53:06. > :53:11.banks or the pressure on Spain. What can Britain... The eurozone
:53:11. > :53:15.countries need to ensure that we have a correct firewall to prevent
:53:15. > :53:20.con tainlg oon, -- contagion, but we need to be preparing for all
:53:20. > :53:26.eventualities. The problem is, you can't do any of
:53:26. > :53:31.this stuff without growth. You are seeing the reaction in the UK as
:53:31. > :53:35.well. That's not going to save Greece either, is it? We should be
:53:35. > :53:39.doing all we can to keep Greece in the euro and it would be easier if
:53:39. > :53:43.David Cameron was around the table leading as in 2008 when we had the
:53:43. > :53:48.last big financial crisis rather than standing on the edge of Dover
:53:48. > :53:55.and shouting across insults. Is that what the Liberal Democrats
:53:55. > :54:00.want to see, David Cameron shouting at the European counterparts?
:54:00. > :54:03.with the G8 doing as much as he can to try to encourage the right
:54:03. > :54:07.result in Europe. What is the right result, Greece
:54:07. > :54:13.staying in or Greece going out? Well, it is difficult. I would
:54:13. > :54:18.suggest it is Greece staying in. Why? Why? Because as far as
:54:18. > :54:21.Britain's interests are concerned, 60% of our exports and our trade is
:54:21. > :54:27.with Europe. But what difference Greece being in
:54:27. > :54:32.or out make? I think because if you get a collapse then that's going to
:54:32. > :54:37.have very bad repercussions. Greece won be able to buy our -- won't be
:54:37. > :54:42.able to buy our products and the whole thing is in danger of
:54:42. > :54:46.actually collapsing. You are saying David Cameron and
:54:46. > :54:49.privately, the leadership would like Greece to go? It is not in
:54:49. > :54:53.Britain's national interest for there to be a disorderly default
:54:53. > :54:56.from Greece. It is not in anyone's interests so we need to be working
:54:56. > :55:01.in our position, not part of the eurozone, but as a key influence
:55:01. > :55:05.and player to ensure that a solution is found. However, we need
:55:05. > :55:09.to be preparing as a responsible Government should do, for all
:55:09. > :55:13.eventualities in relation to the Greek situation given the
:55:13. > :55:16.volatility and the elections. The subject of growth has come up,
:55:16. > :55:21.you know, here with the Beecroft proposals that will come out this
:55:21. > :55:27.week. Do you agree with the main thrust of them? Would you like to
:55:27. > :55:31.see those come into place? should be looking at deregulation
:55:31. > :55:36.in that particular area. I mean I ran two small businesses before I
:55:36. > :55:40.got into Parliament. I know the difficulties of take on people. The
:55:40. > :55:45.amount of effort you need to put in to take on people. We need to sure
:55:45. > :55:47.we look at these proposals. We need to create more private sector jobs
:55:47. > :55:51.to get the growth that everybody wants.
:55:51. > :55:57.Only with this Government, the way to boost employment is to make it
:55:57. > :56:01.easier to sack people. There isn't business confidence.
:56:01. > :56:06.Do you agree with James and with a lot of Tory MPs that deregulation
:56:06. > :56:11.is what is needed and making it easier to hire and fire people is
:56:11. > :56:17.what is needed? There is a lot of stuff in Beecroft which is fine. I
:56:17. > :56:22.have had my own businesses as well, as well as having an HR background
:56:23. > :56:26.and I don't think anybody ever worked harder or or more
:56:26. > :56:29.productively because they were under threat of having the sack.
:56:29. > :56:33.Nobody is arguing for fire at will. Anybody who has run a small
:56:33. > :56:36.business will know one of the first things you need to do is create a
:56:36. > :56:41.good cull do you remember in your company -- culture in your company.
:56:41. > :56:45.One of the problems with employment law it created unintended
:56:45. > :56:50.circumstances and that has held British small business back.
:56:50. > :56:56.We are doing that already with with a lot of the legislation, there
:56:56. > :57:01.will be more con sillation before this aspect starts to kick in now.
:57:01. > :57:05.He is talk being growth and this is getting private sector employment,
:57:05. > :57:14.stimulating enterprise is how we're going to grow the economy and he is
:57:14. > :57:20.silent on what his plans would be. Where is the growth? Ellesmere Port,
:57:20. > :57:25.motor manufacturing is booming. all the the factors and measures of
:57:25. > :57:30.the economy, yes, there is is not growth. There hasn't been.
:57:30. > :57:33.Unemployment fell last week. Gavin is not welcoming the fact there has
:57:33. > :57:37.been huge investment in manufacturing in Ellesmere Port.
:57:37. > :57:42.Do you agree with Vince Cable that it is bonkers to be looking at fire
:57:42. > :57:45.at will and no fault dismissal. I can't see how it would help. It
:57:45. > :57:49.would hinder the situation and lot of the stuff that we are bringing
:57:49. > :57:52.in will really be the helping factor for business and for people
:57:52. > :57:56.as well. It has to be a balance there.
:57:56. > :58:04.We're going to be glutons for punishment and go back to the to
:58:04. > :58:11.the caption. Let's look at that picture from the G8 Summit. Nick
:58:11. > :58:18.says, "Tony Blair's return to front-line politics will the USA.".
:58:18. > :58:28.Ian, "The euro suffers another slide against the pound." "English
:58:28. > :58:29.
:58:29. > :58:32.football hooligan breaks into G8 Summit.". Which one? The first one.
:58:32. > :58:38.The leaders wait for the election result.
:58:38. > :58:41.I have thought thought - Gordon Brown makes a surprise appearance.
:58:41. > :58:45.Thank you to our guests and the One O'Clock News is starting over on