:00:41. > :00:44.Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:44. > :00:49.The markets react positively to the 100 billion euro bailout of Spain's
:00:49. > :00:52.banks. But is the dramatic move enough to stop the rot?
:00:52. > :00:56.The Leveson Inquiry is set for a high-profile week with Gordon Brown
:00:56. > :01:00.and George Osborne appearing today, and David Cameron on Thursday.
:01:00. > :01:04.We'll have the latest. Theresa May tells the courts to
:01:04. > :01:09.stop using European Human Rights law to block deportations. We'll
:01:09. > :01:13.debate Britain's membership of the European Court for Human Rights.
:01:13. > :01:23.And lovely weather for cycling! Could we ever go Dutch and make
:01:23. > :01:31.
:01:32. > :01:35.All that in the next hour. With us is Baroness Helena Kennedy.
:01:35. > :01:41.Lukewarm applause, the breathing space to stagger on to the next
:01:41. > :01:46.round, but no clear sign we will make it through. Not England's
:01:46. > :01:50.chances at Euro 2012, but the future of the eurozone. After the
:01:50. > :01:54.100 billion euros bail-out of Spain's Banks, the markets have
:01:54. > :02:00.reacted positively. But many are saying it is buying time rather
:02:00. > :02:04.than solving the issue. Is this a big moment, the bail-out will calm
:02:04. > :02:10.the markets enough and the eurozone has been saved? Or is it just a
:02:10. > :02:14.sticking plaster? I think it is just a sticking plaster. It will
:02:14. > :02:19.work for while and will help the banks in Spain, but I don't think
:02:19. > :02:23.it will be a solution in the long run. There is a problem around the
:02:23. > :02:28.eurozone with the institutions. It is good Spain because their banks
:02:28. > :02:33.are going to be sorted to some extent. Some people say it is not
:02:33. > :02:37.enough, the bail-out. It has created a lot of resentment because
:02:37. > :02:43.they have been treated differently. Conditions are not attached?
:02:43. > :02:49.Absolut gleeful stock they have a much safer situation in many
:02:49. > :02:54.respects. There crisis comes out of his property bubble that there was.
:02:54. > :02:59.But I don't see this as being the answer on the eurozone. There are
:02:59. > :03:04.issues around the whole model, the whole economic model on which this
:03:04. > :03:08.is being based. I have some problems also with the simple
:03:08. > :03:12.solutions of greater austerity and save the banks. You have to look at
:03:12. > :03:18.issues on how growth is created. I say that as someone who thinks we
:03:18. > :03:22.should be part of Europe, and they don't want it to feed into as a
:03:22. > :03:26.general sense that people have in Britain, thank goodness we are not
:03:26. > :03:30.in the Euro. And if we get the chance leads to pull away from us
:03:30. > :03:35.all together. You can see why people are not part -- Britain is
:03:35. > :03:41.not part of the eurozone because we are being spare part of the
:03:41. > :03:45.problem? I am one of them, believe me. I am grateful to Gordon Brown
:03:45. > :03:49.for keeping us out because Tony Blair was so keen to go in. But I
:03:49. > :03:55.believe in a global world with global markets, we have to be part
:03:55. > :03:59.of something bigger. I say this to people who think, let's cut all the
:03:59. > :04:03.ties with Europe. It won't work because most of our products are
:04:03. > :04:07.sold in Europe and we have good economic relationships with those
:04:08. > :04:12.who betrayed with. What about having a referendum to let the
:04:12. > :04:17.people decide? I would be worried about having it now because at this
:04:17. > :04:21.moment, the debate is too crude. I would want there to be a more
:04:21. > :04:25.sophisticated debate about what are the benefits to us for having links
:04:25. > :04:30.with Europe. What would be the downside if we ended up going it
:04:30. > :04:36.alone. Been little Brits is not going to do it in a globalised
:04:36. > :04:41.world where we see huge entities developing at a pace. Now, with the
:04:41. > :04:47.Jubilee behind us, all eyes are back on Leveson Inquiry, as it
:04:47. > :04:56.continues its relationship -- look into the relationship between the
:04:56. > :05:02.press and politicians. A-list celebrities have given evidence.
:05:02. > :05:07.Jeremy Irons's face the heat as he and his lobbyist, Fred Michel face
:05:07. > :05:11.questions over his handling of the BSkyB bid. There will be a bumper
:05:12. > :05:16.line-up of high-profile witnesses. Gordon Brown is facing inquiry,
:05:16. > :05:20.with George Osborne due to give evidence this afternoon. The
:05:20. > :05:26.Chancellor's role in the hiring of Andy Coulson is expected to
:05:26. > :05:31.dominate. Ed Miliband, and Harriet Harman will take to the witness box
:05:31. > :05:35.tomorrow alongside John Major. Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg
:05:35. > :05:40.and Scottish First Minister, Alex Salmond give evidence on Wednesday.
:05:40. > :05:47.And the week ends up on Thursday as the Prime Minister is the sole
:05:47. > :05:57.witness who will expect detailed questions about Jeremy Hunt and
:05:57. > :06:05.Andy Coulson as well as Rebekah Brooks.
:06:05. > :06:09.I find it sad that even now in 2012, members of News International are
:06:09. > :06:13.coming to this enquiry and maintaining this fiction that a
:06:13. > :06:17.story that could only have been achieved or maintained through
:06:17. > :06:21.medical information, or through me and my wife, which we never did, of
:06:21. > :06:27.course - was obtained in another way. We cannot learn the lessons of
:06:27. > :06:31.what has happened with the media unless there is some honesty about
:06:31. > :06:36.what actually happened. Whether payment was made and whether this
:06:36. > :06:40.is a practice that could continue. If we don't at root out this kind
:06:40. > :06:45.of practice, I don't think we can sensibly say we have dealt with
:06:45. > :06:49.some of the abuses that are problematical for us. Let's stop
:06:49. > :06:53.now to our correspondent who is outside the inquiry at the Royal
:06:53. > :06:57.Courts of Justice. I have only listen to some of it, and the
:06:58. > :07:01.impression you get is that Gordon Brown is a man who is trying to get
:07:01. > :07:05.things off his chest. This is therapeutic for him to talk about
:07:05. > :07:10.some of the grievances he felt in terms of how he was dealt with by
:07:10. > :07:17.the press when he was Prime Minister? Gordon Brown sees this as
:07:17. > :07:20.more than therapy. It for him he is setting a record us -- straight. If
:07:21. > :07:25.you read the records he put out during this inquiry with a cynical
:07:25. > :07:31.mind, you could possibly see gaps in which she did not wholly deny
:07:32. > :07:38.everything. He has been straightforward, he contradicts
:07:38. > :07:42.what Rebekah Brooks says. Rebekah Brooks said they had permission up
:07:42. > :07:48.from Gordon Brown and his family to publish the story about his son and
:07:48. > :07:51.cystic fibrosis. He said that is not the case. Rupert Murdoch has
:07:51. > :07:56.said Gordon Brown declared it on the phone to him that he would make
:07:56. > :08:01.war on his company. They call did not happen that were at the time
:08:01. > :08:07.when Rupert Murdoch said it happened. But when there was a call
:08:07. > :08:13.someone Slater, though was no threat. Be very clear contradiction,
:08:13. > :08:17.which when people are talking under oath, it is a serious business.
:08:18. > :08:23.People will ask questions, someone is not telling the truth. Looking
:08:23. > :08:31.ahead, what can we expect? We have George Osborne coming up this
:08:31. > :08:35.afternoon. We did have a warning, a strict warning from Lord Justice
:08:35. > :08:40.Leveson that us in the media shouldn't be reporting the tittle-
:08:40. > :08:44.tattle and who is up and down of Westminster out of this. We hear is
:08:44. > :08:48.a Chancellor whose judgment has been questioned and will have to
:08:48. > :08:54.account for the decision to give Andy Coulson a job as director of
:08:54. > :09:02.communications, and if it was him responsible to give Jeremy Hunt,
:09:02. > :09:12.the job as the News Corporation BSkyB bid. George Osborne possibly
:09:12. > :09:17.
:09:17. > :09:21.will hear from George Osborne this afternoon. The judgment of David
:09:21. > :09:26.Cameron and George Osborne will be called into question in terms of
:09:26. > :09:31.the appointment of Andy Coulson. The role of Jeremy hands over
:09:31. > :09:36.BSkyB? We have had these sessions so far with senior members of the
:09:36. > :09:40.Government, Jeremy hands giving evidence. It has given a clearer
:09:40. > :09:44.picture of what went on and in terms of the procedure that was
:09:44. > :09:50.following her over the Sky bid, it was not compromised by any external
:09:50. > :09:55.oblique. You think Jeremy Hunt's position is secure? From what we
:09:55. > :09:59.have heard so far, yes. Was he right to abuse whether this deal
:09:59. > :10:04.should go through before he was given responsibility for it? People
:10:04. > :10:08.can debate that. That his views get in the way of the due process he
:10:08. > :10:13.had to follow, and there is no evidence it did. Perhaps the more
:10:13. > :10:20.pertinent question is to George Osborne, the Chancellor's Texan
:10:21. > :10:26.Essex to the Culture Secretary, "I hope you like our solution on the
:10:26. > :10:30.day the bid for BSkyB was handed to Jeremy Hunt". One did you think he
:10:30. > :10:37.meant by that? I don't know, but was is unreasonable that the
:10:37. > :10:42.Government should ask he should have taken over the responsibility
:10:42. > :10:47.for this bid? Even though he had made his position clear and said he
:10:47. > :10:53.was in favour of it, it was the same as Vince Cable saying he was
:10:53. > :10:57.against? He was more than sympathetic. The memo he sent to
:10:57. > :11:02.the Prime Minister, he said whatever happens, to allow the
:11:02. > :11:06.takeover bid to go ahead, has to be made on media polarity grounds. If
:11:06. > :11:11.you fail on that task, the chances are it will be reviewed. He did
:11:11. > :11:14.follow those principles when he handled it. Let's come back to the
:11:14. > :11:19.George Osborne point, what do you think he meant when he said in a
:11:19. > :11:24.text message, I think you are like a solution, which was to hand it
:11:24. > :11:29.over to Jeremy Hunt? I have no idea, it is a text message. He will have
:11:29. > :11:34.the chance this afternoon to speak about it. Was it unreasonable to
:11:34. > :11:41.ask Jeremy Hunt to take on this role? Absolutely not. Is there any
:11:41. > :11:46.evidence he handled it badly or suede? Not at all. Do you think
:11:46. > :11:50.Jeremy Hunt should have been reported for breaching the
:11:50. > :11:56.ministerial code? I don't think he did breach the ministerial code.
:11:56. > :12:01.Should he have been reported so he could establish that? No, when you
:12:01. > :12:09.have a public inquiry under way, it was right to allow that to take
:12:09. > :12:15.precedence. I don't think any evidence that has come out of this
:12:15. > :12:22.inquiry that this should be brought in. We're interested, Baroness
:12:23. > :12:25.Warsi has been referred, have they been treated equitably? She has
:12:25. > :12:31.admitted some irregularities and that has not happened with Jeremy
:12:31. > :12:35.Hunt. The decision to bring in Andy Coulson, who's to blame for that?
:12:35. > :12:41.The Prime Minister said last year when this was debated in Parliament,
:12:41. > :12:44.he was given assurances by Andy Coulson, the same assurances given
:12:44. > :12:49.to Scottish court and select committee is, if the Prime Minister
:12:49. > :12:55.was misled in terms of what Andy Coulson you about phone hacking, he
:12:55. > :13:00.was not the only one misled. Andy Coulson said he was only asked once
:13:00. > :13:04.about assurances in terms of phone hacking? He was asked. His once
:13:04. > :13:08.enough? He was asked and assurances were given and it turns out the
:13:08. > :13:13.Prime Minister was misled, along with other people, too. All this is
:13:13. > :13:16.coming out in the open, and we know why it is going on. The question
:13:16. > :13:21.Gordon Brown has not answered this morning is, we knew this was going
:13:21. > :13:27.on years ago, and there would be questions to answer. Nothing was
:13:27. > :13:31.done about it. Let's pick up on Gordon Brown, first of all. He is
:13:31. > :13:36.trying to set the record straight, as our correspondent set out. Is
:13:36. > :13:41.there a level of hypocrisy in terms of the fact he was fraternising
:13:41. > :13:45.with News Corporation in the same way as others? This story is
:13:45. > :13:50.riddled with hypocrisy for all senior politicians because they put
:13:50. > :13:54.up with it for years. Let's be clear, when he says we are the good
:13:54. > :13:57.guys because we called the inquiry, but they have to because the game
:13:57. > :14:03.was up. Something had to be done and that is why there was an
:14:03. > :14:07.inquiry. It would have happened in the same way for whoever was in
:14:07. > :14:13.Government. I hope you are rewarded for your great loyalties to
:14:13. > :14:17.everybody around the story. Because it does not bear examination.
:14:17. > :14:22.Sometimes as a QC, I feel I would love to have the opportunity to
:14:22. > :14:27.cross-examine some people on it. It goes back to the business of, here
:14:27. > :14:31.you came into Government in a coalition. There was a hoped some
:14:31. > :14:35.things would be different, because there was a bad smell. But it
:14:35. > :14:40.became clear have to get it points man. The points man who was brought
:14:40. > :14:47.in to be the middle person between you and News International was Andy
:14:47. > :14:51.Coulson. A terrible mistake? Let's go back on this point, which is we
:14:51. > :14:55.have to call this inquiry now. Tony Blair was asked about this and he
:14:55. > :15:00.said the Labour Party was not in a position to go to war with the
:15:00. > :15:04.press in 2007. He did try, I know it is up to the Prime Minister to
:15:04. > :15:09.make the decision, but he did say it could lead to a judicial review.
:15:09. > :15:13.And there was an attempt. He became Prime Minister in months of this
:15:13. > :15:19.debate taking place. And at the time of the information
:15:19. > :15:23.commissioner report. And also the claim which is the Prime Minister,
:15:23. > :15:27.David Cameron said this Government would be whiter than white and
:15:27. > :15:32.transparency would be the byword for this Government. The Leveson
:15:32. > :15:35.inquiry seems to have laid claim to that. We have never had greater
:15:35. > :15:41.disclosure about the contact of senior members of the Government
:15:41. > :15:48.with senior members of the media. The Prime Minister called the
:15:48. > :15:52.inquiry with the support of the There's an inquiry which is
:15:53. > :16:01.producing information. The idea that the Secretary of State for
:16:01. > :16:07.culture media and sport had been basically on side with News
:16:07. > :16:12.International, was in contact with e-mails and text messages more than
:16:12. > :16:17.most people have with their lover, with their wife. It was a contact
:16:17. > :16:21.that was absolutely showing they were in the pockets of News
:16:21. > :16:25.International. I take issue with that. You have to distinguish
:16:25. > :16:29.between contact before the responsibility and afterwards. I'm
:16:29. > :16:33.not trying to say one government is whiter than white. When Gordon
:16:33. > :16:36.Brown tries to create this fantasy that somehow he was distant from
:16:36. > :16:42.the media, that the Labour Party took a very different approach, as
:16:42. > :16:45.Rupert Murdoch said himself, he was closer to Gordon Brown than any
:16:45. > :16:50.other senior politician throughout this period. Gordon Brown never
:16:50. > :16:54.mentioned phone hacking. What tone should George Osborne be setting
:16:54. > :16:59.this afternoon? It is a serious inquiry and he will give evidence
:16:59. > :17:01.in a serious way. People will want to know about the text message and
:17:01. > :17:05.today is an opportunity to end the speculation and set the record
:17:05. > :17:09.straight. Thank you. Theresa May, the Home Secretary, is
:17:09. > :17:11.gearing up for yet another battle with the courts - this time over
:17:11. > :17:14.whether foreign prisoners' rights to a family life should mean they
:17:14. > :17:16.can avoid being deported. It's a long-running saga, but just one of
:17:16. > :17:19.many tussles between successive British governments and the
:17:19. > :17:21.judiciary. In particular, ministers have been at loggerheads with the
:17:21. > :17:24.Strasbourg-based European Court of Human Rights, with the current
:17:24. > :17:28.government keen for reform and some Tory backbenchers saying we should
:17:28. > :17:38.pull out altogether. But can a workable balance be struck between
:17:38. > :17:43.
:17:43. > :17:47.politicians and judges? We sent This is Belmarsh prison in south-
:17:47. > :17:51.east London. It holds some of the country's most dangerous inmates,
:17:51. > :17:54.including some who have been accused of terrorist offences. But
:17:54. > :18:02.who decides he will end up here and what their rights should be? It is
:18:02. > :18:04.not always asked. Sometimes, it is the judges who sit here, the
:18:04. > :18:08.European Court of Human Rights. Britain helped set it up and we
:18:08. > :18:12.abide by its decisions even when they override our own courts and
:18:12. > :18:16.Parliament. There's the blocking of Britain's attempt to deport Abu
:18:16. > :18:20.Qatada, although they have rejected his latest appeal. Then there's
:18:20. > :18:23.votes for prisoners and the rights to a family life of up MPs and
:18:23. > :18:28.ministers, dead set against, European Court says they should
:18:28. > :18:32.have them. It makes some Tory MPs blood boil. But here's the thing. A
:18:32. > :18:36.lot of Lib Dems like the European Court under laws that go with it.
:18:36. > :18:41.David Cameron had to find a way of keeping everyone happy so he set up
:18:41. > :18:45.a commission to look at creating a British Bill of Rights one also
:18:45. > :18:49.reforming the European Court of Human Rights. All fine, until one
:18:49. > :18:53.of the commissioners came onto the Sunday politics and said this.
:18:53. > :19:03.After one year, it is now clear that it has been intended all along
:19:03. > :19:07.to issue a report in favour of the status quo. We have considered the
:19:07. > :19:12.question of parliamentary sovereignty only once in the whole
:19:12. > :19:20.year that we've been in existence. I'm afraid it leaves me with no
:19:20. > :19:24.alternative but to resign. I think the cause is so important to look
:19:24. > :19:29.in a mature way at human rights and to make it consistent with
:19:29. > :19:34.parliamentary sovereignty that I do need to pursue it, but not on the
:19:34. > :19:38.commission. So is the commission likely to actually please anyone?
:19:38. > :19:42.think the most the commission are going to do is define the problem,
:19:42. > :19:46.to assess whether there's a problem and what it is. They are not going
:19:46. > :19:51.to come up with any clear solutions and if there are solutions, they
:19:51. > :19:55.will go out for consideration and discussion. We can't expect to see
:19:55. > :19:57.a bill before the next general election and who knows what the
:19:58. > :20:02.political complexion will be after that. High but some critics think
:20:02. > :20:05.that is not good enough and that if we can't reform the European Court
:20:06. > :20:10.and established his supremacy of Parliament, we should go. But is
:20:10. > :20:15.that really an option? If you want to join the European Union as an
:20:15. > :20:18.emerging democracy, you must first sign up to the human rights
:20:18. > :20:23.convention and joined the Council of Europe. If we were to pull out
:20:23. > :20:26.of the Convention, would we have to pull out of the EU? Nobody knows.
:20:26. > :20:31.Theoretically that would be a risk. There are some people who say we
:20:31. > :20:35.would be better off out of the EU, but it seems to be a big step to
:20:35. > :20:38.take or to risk just because we are reluctant to give a few votes to a
:20:38. > :20:42.few prisoners who probably would not vote anyway. Justice may be
:20:42. > :20:45.blind, ministers have to keep at least one eye on the politics of it
:20:45. > :20:50.all. Ultimately, who makes Britain's laws is about as
:20:50. > :20:52.political as it gets. Joining us from Oxford now is
:20:52. > :20:54.Michael Pinto-Dushinsky, who earlier this year resigned as one
:20:54. > :21:04.of the eight commissioners examining whether a British Bill of
:21:04. > :21:05.
:21:05. > :21:09.Rights is needed. This afternoon, the Home Secretary will make a
:21:09. > :21:11.statement to Parliament which many suggest will be a showdown with the
:21:11. > :21:15.courts over this issue of the rights of foreign prisoners
:21:15. > :21:23.battling to avoid deportation. Is she right to take them on over
:21:23. > :21:28.this? I certainly don't favour politicians interfering with judges
:21:28. > :21:34.on cases that are going on. I would not talk about the Abu Qatada case
:21:34. > :21:41.because it is still going on, it is improper to interfere with judges.
:21:41. > :21:45.When we come to matters of general policy, which is in a sense making
:21:45. > :21:51.laws, then it is for Parliament to make laws and it is for judges to
:21:51. > :21:55.enforce those laws. If Parliament doesn't like it, Parliament can
:21:55. > :21:59.make new laws. That is what a democracy under rule of law means.
:21:59. > :22:03.Is this really, in your view, empty rhetoric saying that she is going
:22:03. > :22:08.to do battle and have a showdown, because as you say, without making
:22:08. > :22:18.a new law, she can't tell judges how they should interpret the
:22:18. > :22:19.
:22:19. > :22:24.existing ones. She can introduce a new law. Maybe it is wise to do so.
:22:25. > :22:33.The interpretation of family life has been broadened far beyond the
:22:33. > :22:39.original intention. If she does introduce the new law, it is the
:22:39. > :22:43.judges obligation to obey the law unless the court in Strasbourg over
:22:43. > :22:47.rules the British judges and the British Parliament. But that would
:22:47. > :22:53.take several years and would not happen within this Parliament. In
:22:53. > :23:01.effect, she can making new law safely until 2015. Maybe that is
:23:01. > :23:04.what she intends to do. So without a new law, Theresa May is a bit
:23:04. > :23:09.restricted in terms of what she can tell judges to do, but she says she
:23:09. > :23:14.has the public on her side on this. And judges and courts do listen to
:23:15. > :23:19.public opinion so is this the right way to approach this campaign?
:23:19. > :23:24.Michael is a political scientist and he is not a lawyer. He is not
:23:24. > :23:28.in courts on a regular basis. There's a very interesting two step
:23:28. > :23:32.that takes place between the law and politics. Judges don't exist in
:23:32. > :23:38.a vacuum, they do listen to public debates and they are very conscious
:23:38. > :23:42.of public temperature. They know that at the moment, we have a
:23:42. > :23:46.government, and a government before, it is not just this particular
:23:46. > :23:49.coalition government, the coalition before also had its run-ins with
:23:49. > :23:52.some of the decisions by judges, but what happens is that judges
:23:52. > :23:56.listen, but they know there are basic principles they should not
:23:56. > :24:01.override. Have they over interpreted this particular law in
:24:01. > :24:05.terms of the right to a family life? The question there is most of
:24:05. > :24:08.us would agree, and it is set down in the principles of the European
:24:08. > :24:11.Convention, that people are entitled to a family life and that
:24:11. > :24:14.means that if you are given immigration status in this country
:24:14. > :24:20.and you are allowed to be in this country, you are entitled to have
:24:20. > :24:23.your wife and children with you. Where it comes into question is our
:24:24. > :24:27.interpretation in relation to homosexuality, are you entitled to
:24:27. > :24:31.have your homosexual partner? Are you entitled to have your
:24:31. > :24:36.grandmother? Some people would say if granny has to stay at home.
:24:36. > :24:40.There's an issue which has to be examined and it is usually dealt
:24:40. > :24:44.with case by case. Families differ. What would be right for one family
:24:44. > :24:48.is not always right for another. His Theresa May right to say you
:24:48. > :24:52.have overstepped your remit, the public isn't with you either and
:24:52. > :24:57.nor is the political establishment. Rain in your interpretation or we
:24:57. > :25:03.will do -- change the law. In the months to come, you will not find
:25:03. > :25:07.any cases that accountant... Judges will be sensitive to it and when
:25:07. > :25:10.they are making their individual interpretations they will have in
:25:10. > :25:14.mind that there's a general feeling that we should not be saying your
:25:14. > :25:19.second cousin is somebody who is part of your family. Do you agree
:25:19. > :25:25.with that? Do you have confidence that that is what will happen?
:25:25. > :25:29.should say that on legal matters, I have every confidence in Helen The.
:25:29. > :25:38.I have immense personal and professional respect for her and as
:25:39. > :25:44.she says, she knows the courts and I don't. I am a bit concerned about
:25:44. > :25:50.the view that judges should take account of public opinion in the
:25:50. > :25:55.sense of becoming semi- political themselves. It is their role to
:25:55. > :26:02.make judgments on the merits of the judgments. One wouldn't want judges
:26:02. > :26:07.to be too politicised. But in general, I do agree with Helena on
:26:07. > :26:10.that. Let's turn to the British Bill of Rights. We heard in that
:26:10. > :26:14.clip where you resigned as one of the eight commissioners examining
:26:14. > :26:18.where a British Bill of Rights was needed. You said the commission
:26:18. > :26:23.deliberately ignored the prime minister, is that still the case?
:26:23. > :26:28.And so Livy. Since I resigned, the only two oomph public hearings that
:26:28. > :26:31.have been read, and they were to have taken place by now, have been
:26:31. > :26:37.postponed until the autumn. We don't know if they will take place
:26:37. > :26:41.at all. The commission is the only employee one graduate student as
:26:41. > :26:46.far as I know to look into parliamentary sovereignty and
:26:46. > :26:53.indeed I think there's no guarantee that that graduate student will
:26:53. > :27:00.even be big eater -- be paid the minimum wage. There isn't any
:27:00. > :27:04.serious inquiry at all. The whole notion is to waste time and to
:27:04. > :27:09.block the government from doing anything by wasting its time. May I
:27:09. > :27:15.just say one other thing that Helena may want to answer? It has
:27:15. > :27:20.now come out that Nick Clegg spoke to one of the commissioners in
:27:20. > :27:24.person, Lord Lester, and had a joint telephone call with the other
:27:25. > :27:29.three commissioners, including Helena, two days before the first
:27:29. > :27:34.meeting of the commission. Clearly there was some kind of fix up in
:27:34. > :27:39.place before we even started. there a stitch-up with Nick Clegg
:27:39. > :27:43.phoning you and others on the commission beforehand? The only
:27:43. > :27:50.time I have had a conversation with Nick Clegg on the telephone was
:27:50. > :27:54.when he invited me to be a commissioner. Each of the coalition
:27:54. > :27:58.partners were able to choose four persons to sit on the commission
:27:58. > :28:04.and I was one of the people selected to be on the commission by
:28:04. > :28:08.the Lib Dem end, although I'm a Labour person. I think that is true
:28:08. > :28:13.of everybody, we all had a call from the people selecting us to be
:28:13. > :28:17.on the commission. There certainly was no stitch-up. It is interesting,
:28:17. > :28:22.I'm sure Labour leaders will find it hard to believe that I'm capable
:28:22. > :28:29.of being stitched into anything, if I were to choose not be. There is
:28:29. > :28:32.the other point, Michael has no faith that the commission will
:28:32. > :28:37.deliver an alternative, that this is a waste of time and they will
:28:37. > :28:43.not explore all the options. became very clear, and it is one of
:28:43. > :28:49.the reasons Michael is no longer on the commission,... Michael would
:28:49. > :28:53.like to see that this was not the remit of this commission. This
:28:53. > :28:56.commission's terms of reference were not to be saying we should be
:28:56. > :29:01.leaving the European Convention on Human Rights... Parliament has
:29:01. > :29:04.sovereignty. No. Parliamentary sovereignty is part of what we are
:29:04. > :29:08.looking at. When it comes to the report which will be published at
:29:08. > :29:12.the end of this year, it will be giving recommendations to
:29:12. > :29:15.government as to how they could take this forward and it will give
:29:15. > :29:19.recommendations in relation to should there be a British Bill of
:29:19. > :29:21.Rights, if so what form it would take, or should we stick with what
:29:21. > :29:28.we have an make amendments and find other ways of enriching this
:29:28. > :29:31.process? Thank you both very much. Towards the end of the year, we
:29:31. > :29:41.will have the recommendations and you will see if your fears are
:29:41. > :29:43.
:29:43. > :29:49.You may remember we towed due of some research the University of
:29:49. > :29:55.Strathclyde was doing to study the mood of the nation. Participants
:29:55. > :30:01.were being tested that being exposed to a flagging image would
:30:01. > :30:05.affect their answers. This is what they found. Seeing a flag does
:30:05. > :30:10.affect how the respondent response to the state of the economy in
:30:10. > :30:15.England and Scotland. It made people feel more anxious. Exposure
:30:15. > :30:21.to the Union Jack increases estate of pride in being English. It was
:30:21. > :30:27.not the case for the Scottish flag. What does this mean? Joining us
:30:27. > :30:33.from Glasgow is a professor who has been conducting his research for
:30:33. > :30:38.Strathclyde University. What does it mean? We emphasise straight away
:30:38. > :30:43.but these are representative surveys. We have two samples from
:30:43. > :30:48.England and Scotland of people who responded to this particular quiz.
:30:48. > :30:53.Straight away we put the little caveat in, they are groups of
:30:53. > :30:58.English and Scottish respondents who are possibly particularly
:30:58. > :31:03.interested because they are watching your programme. What was
:31:03. > :31:07.interesting is the way different UK flag splayed out in different ways
:31:07. > :31:12.within the two difference sample groups. Critically, the story on
:31:12. > :31:17.the economy was interesting. And there has been a tendency to say
:31:17. > :31:22.there has been a split between national identity issues that tried
:31:22. > :31:27.public opinion, and economic, hard rational views that drive public
:31:28. > :31:32.opinion. What we think it shows is these two have closely combined,
:31:32. > :31:36.which is a commonsense thing, but not what people using their
:31:36. > :31:41.analysis. The fact you trigger their national identity seems to
:31:41. > :31:45.affect how they make rational decisions on whether they think the
:31:45. > :31:51.economy is doing well, whether it feels them feel confident or a bit
:31:51. > :31:56.uneasy. It is this point, respondents who saw a Scottish flag
:31:56. > :32:01.felt more anxious about the economy. Is that because of the current
:32:01. > :32:09.economic times that we are in now? What did he make of that? He is
:32:09. > :32:14.difficult to tell. We get this data and we have to interpret it wide it
:32:14. > :32:18.has to that effect and it is open to speculation. We had the number
:32:18. > :32:22.of people who came back and said it is difficult for them to
:32:22. > :32:27.disentangle the question of the Scottish of the English economy.
:32:27. > :32:31.They are feeling a bit, when they say you make them feel English on
:32:31. > :32:34.make them feel Scottish, they feel they don't have that much control
:32:34. > :32:44.over the economy in England and Scotland because is a part of the
:32:44. > :32:48.UK economy. Also, given the current debates on whether there should be
:32:48. > :32:53.more control over the economy in Scotland. The other side of it
:32:53. > :32:57.could be the opposite. It could be people are feeling anxious about if
:32:57. > :33:03.we were to go it alone, if there was some kind of control over the
:33:03. > :33:09.economy, would they feel more anxious? Helena Kennedy, on the
:33:09. > :33:14.headlines of that, would you, on the basis of those answers hazard a
:33:14. > :33:19.guess the question on Scottish independence would be on identity?
:33:19. > :33:22.I think it will be Economics that it will determine it. The Scots are
:33:22. > :33:27.very canny and they will want to know if they can survive on their
:33:27. > :33:31.own. When we hear Scottish Nationalist politicians saying, we
:33:31. > :33:36.could be absolutely successful without being linked to England, I
:33:36. > :33:41.think there is a lot of concern about whether it is true. I think
:33:41. > :33:44.they should be some hard, independent, economic analysis done
:33:44. > :33:49.with no British economists or Scottish ones, but a set of
:33:50. > :33:55.economists from abroad to look at it independently. Independently
:33:55. > :34:01.always been difficult. I was struck over the Jubilee period and the
:34:01. > :34:06.events, and the number of Union Jack flags, no negatives
:34:06. > :34:10.connotations associated with that? I was of the generation in the 70s
:34:10. > :34:15.when I was a young woman demonstrating, I was concerned
:34:15. > :34:22.about racism and it is the flag that was used by the National Front.
:34:22. > :34:26.It lived at me for a long time, being linked with racists. It has
:34:26. > :34:32.shed that very largely. People did not feel that at all, watching the
:34:32. > :34:36.sea of flags. Adam Shaw in Scotland or in Northern Ireland, seeing the
:34:36. > :34:42.Union Jack, it may create different ripples because there are people
:34:42. > :34:46.who still see it as a flag which is about imperialism and about somehow
:34:46. > :34:52.being conquered nations. I don't know, but I suspect it still lives
:34:52. > :34:57.on. A fan's for bringing us that research and Helena Kennedy, being
:34:57. > :35:02.a guest of the day for. MPs are now back in Westminster for
:35:02. > :35:06.the last session before the summer holidays. It is looking like a busy
:35:06. > :35:10.week for political hacks. We will hear more from Theresa May on
:35:10. > :35:15.immigration this afternoon's. She has already said she will get tough
:35:15. > :35:20.and judges who will refuse to deport foreign criminals because of
:35:20. > :35:25.their human rights. PMQs should be interesting. Expect
:35:25. > :35:28.the Prime Minister to be questioned on the recent U-turns. On Thursday
:35:28. > :35:33.the Prime Minister is in the spotlight giving evidence at
:35:33. > :35:40.Leveson Inquiry. An economy will be back on the agenda with George
:35:40. > :35:44.Osborne's mansions house speech at the Lord Mayor's dinner. Let's talk
:35:44. > :35:49.to George Parker from the Financial Times and Alison little from the
:35:49. > :35:52.Daily Express. George Parker, the Financial Times has written a lot
:35:52. > :35:57.about George Osborne blaming the eurozone for Britain's lack of
:35:57. > :36:02.growth. But a lot of the criticism comes from the Tory party, how
:36:02. > :36:06.dangerous is it for the Chancellor? It is the central political
:36:07. > :36:10.argument, who is to blame for Britain's poor economic
:36:10. > :36:14.performance? Labour have been St George Osborne cannot possibly
:36:14. > :36:21.blame it all on the eurozone. He should be doing more to stimulate
:36:21. > :36:25.the economy, cutting taxes. We have at least three senior Tory right-
:36:25. > :36:29.wingers St George Osborne shouldn't use the euro zone crisis as an
:36:29. > :36:33.alibi, and to be doing more in terms of cutting business taxation,
:36:33. > :36:37.cutting red tape to get business going. It is a difficult position
:36:37. > :36:42.for George Osborne to find himself to be in, being attacked from the
:36:42. > :36:47.left and the right as to who is to blame for this double-dip recession.
:36:47. > :36:54.Alison, how much more pressure it is there now for a referendum?
:36:54. > :36:59.is growing all the time. My paper would support that. We have become
:36:59. > :37:04.increasingly mainstream. George Osborne, he has been trying to
:37:04. > :37:08.signal in recent days he would support a referendum. He is trying
:37:08. > :37:15.to throw that in his own right wingers, but they are sceptical,
:37:15. > :37:18.they would want to see it written down in black and white. They
:37:18. > :37:22.wouldn't be satisfied with the hints because we have had hints
:37:22. > :37:26.over a referendum before and it has not happened. But pressure is
:37:26. > :37:31.definitely growing. Looking over the recess and the U-turn is that
:37:31. > :37:36.one made over various tax policies, do you think it will be
:37:36. > :37:42.regurgitated at PMQs this week? certain it will be. If I was Ed
:37:42. > :37:48.Miliband, it is something I would want to look at and what my
:37:48. > :37:53.colleagues said, Martin Brown dubbed the Budget. The series of U-
:37:54. > :37:58.turns that have taken place. Labour are using one of their debate days
:37:58. > :38:05.to call a debate about the VAT on caravans, which the Government has
:38:05. > :38:10.poof formed -- has not yet performed a four U turn on. I am
:38:10. > :38:15.certain Ed Miliband will go on the economy as well. The budgie U-turns
:38:15. > :38:20.were not particularly significant, but it is a question of competence
:38:20. > :38:23.and capability of the Treasury. But the Treasury cannot do the simple
:38:23. > :38:27.things right, that will be the next question going into the next
:38:27. > :38:35.election. Abington all there will be an urgent question on budget U-
:38:35. > :38:39.turns. -- I have been told. We have had, we have just been talking
:38:39. > :38:44.about the jubilee celebrations, the football is on, is there a feel-
:38:44. > :38:49.good factor this week? Feel-good factors can be over done in
:38:49. > :38:54.politics. We are still a couple of years off from the next general --
:38:54. > :39:00.General Election. The Olympics is giving a feel-good factor. But
:39:00. > :39:09.going back to the 1966 World Cup, there is a myth propagated that
:39:09. > :39:14.Harold Wilson won the election because of the 1966 World Cup
:39:14. > :39:19.victory, but he did actually win the election months before.
:39:19. > :39:24.what about the news David Cameron and his wife, Samantha, manage to
:39:24. > :39:28.leave it there a year old daughter in the pub after Sunday lunch?
:39:28. > :39:32.could not make it up. A lot of parents will be sympathetic to this
:39:32. > :39:39.because a lot have said, I have done this, and done even worse
:39:39. > :39:43.things. More serious questions however, they are coming up this
:39:43. > :39:48.morning with people saying if the Prime Minister's security personnel
:39:48. > :39:53.were with him, don't they do a head count to see who is there? And also
:39:53. > :39:58.some parents seem to be reporting they have done similar things in
:39:58. > :40:03.the past and got a visit from social services about it. What will
:40:03. > :40:07.happen to the Prime Minister? It is a mixed blessing, but it definitely
:40:07. > :40:12.plays into the sense at the moment, anything could Government such as
:40:12. > :40:17.falls apart. The narrative does not help, he cannot look after his own
:40:17. > :40:21.children, can he look after the country. Most of the criticism is
:40:22. > :40:27.he has been spending too much time thinking about his family and Tory
:40:27. > :40:31.MPs saying he puts the school run before the national interests. It
:40:31. > :40:35.is difficult to pin this on him that he neglects his children. It
:40:35. > :40:39.would have been more difficult for Ed Miliband, because he did not put
:40:40. > :40:42.his name on the birth certificates of one of his children. But pinning
:40:42. > :40:47.this on David Cameron that he neglects his children, would be a
:40:47. > :40:51.bit tricky. Now, this morning markets in Europe
:40:51. > :40:58.and Asia welcomed the bail-out of Spain's bangs that was agreed over
:40:58. > :41:03.the weekend. On Saturday, eurozone ministers agreed to lend Spain up
:41:03. > :41:10.to 100 billion euros. -- banks. We can now talk to Richard Hunt of.
:41:10. > :41:14.Reasonably positive, the market reaction? Yes it was. Equally, it
:41:14. > :41:19.is another chapter on what will be an ongoing saga in terms of
:41:19. > :41:23.resolving the ongoing crisis. Whilst the market open probably 100
:41:23. > :41:29.points up, a couple of minutes ago it had given away most of those
:41:29. > :41:34.gains. The realisation is beginning to dawn, this is something of a fix
:41:34. > :41:39.rather than a long-term solution. You say it is a fix, and it does
:41:39. > :41:44.sound like a lot of money and the IMF had identified around 40
:41:44. > :41:48.billion euros needed to help out Spain in trouble. Does this do more
:41:48. > :41:52.than put a sticking plaster over the banking, could the
:41:52. > :41:56.recapitalisation of the banking crisis separate it from the
:41:56. > :42:01.sovereign debt crisis? The way it looks like it is going to work, and
:42:01. > :42:05.this is the uncertainty, the money will pass to the banks through the
:42:05. > :42:09.Sovereign and the possibility there of course is the sovereign which is
:42:09. > :42:13.them effectively underlying this amount of money. It would put
:42:13. > :42:18.pressure on it, when it has to go back to the markets to borrow for
:42:18. > :42:22.its own purposes. There are other ramifications, for example - the
:42:22. > :42:26.fact this has gone through so quickly may call into question
:42:26. > :42:30.whether the likes of Portugal, Ireland and Greece now come back to
:42:30. > :42:35.the table to renegotiate their own debt which will put more pressure
:42:35. > :42:38.on the stability facility within the eurozone. It is not bad news
:42:38. > :42:40.and the market has reacted accordingly, but equally they
:42:40. > :42:45.remain a lot of unanswered questions.
:42:45. > :42:53.I have been joined for the rest of the programme by the Conservative
:42:53. > :42:57.MP, the Labour MP, Tony Perkins and the Liberal Democrat Mr Perkins. We
:42:57. > :43:02.have had this phrase from George Osborne the eurozone is killing of
:43:02. > :43:07.Britain's chances of any growth, paraphrasing it slightly, but that
:43:07. > :43:10.was the broad thrust of it. Is the Government impotent in terms of
:43:10. > :43:17.doing anything to promote growth? There is a lot the Government can
:43:17. > :43:22.do to promote growth. He said he cannot. We put 49% of our exports
:43:22. > :43:26.to the eurozone area. It is clear for everyone to see the eurozone is
:43:26. > :43:31.lurching from one crisis to another, and there isn't a clear solution in
:43:31. > :43:36.sight, that will be implemented. That will have an effect on his
:43:36. > :43:42.economic situation at home. What we have seen is the Chancellor and the
:43:42. > :43:46.Prime Minister saying and shouting loud, to Angela Merkel, you have
:43:46. > :43:52.got to sort this problem out now. Everybody accepts the Euros and
:43:52. > :43:56.crisis is having an effect, not only on Europe, but globally. --
:43:56. > :44:00.eurozone stock in the case of Switzerland, not even in the
:44:00. > :44:06.European Union, they do have rows, why can't Britain promote its own
:44:06. > :44:11.growth? But there is a lot been done to promote growth. But it has
:44:11. > :44:16.not happened, there is no growth. If you speak to international
:44:16. > :44:21.investors, people who have money and looking for places to put it.
:44:21. > :44:25.Britain is one of the top destinations. Whether it is Nissan,
:44:25. > :44:29.China Investment Corporation, but we need to do more to promote that
:44:29. > :44:34.activity. So there are opportunities. When do you see
:44:34. > :44:38.growth coming back? I cannot predict, but what we have got to do
:44:38. > :44:43.to promote growth is do the right things to raise business confidence.
:44:43. > :44:49.It is businesses and businesses investing that will drive the
:44:49. > :44:53.growth we need. The danger in this debate, the substance of raising
:44:53. > :44:56.business confidence is to focus on austerity and whether that is
:44:57. > :45:02.driving growth or not driving growth and that is the wrong path
:45:02. > :45:07.to go down. Is it all the eurozone's fault? It has to be
:45:07. > :45:11.partly their fault. When I talk to businesses, they say they have
:45:11. > :45:15.noticed a decline in their order books from eurozone countries. It
:45:15. > :45:19.will have an impact on their ability to invest in their own
:45:19. > :45:25.firms and drive the job-creation we want to see here. Do you believe
:45:25. > :45:30.the British Government's cannot do anything? It can only rely on
:45:30. > :45:35.monetary policy. It seems to be the general direction of travel, the
:45:35. > :45:38.historic low interest rates, we have still have no growth, we have
:45:38. > :45:47.had some quantitative easing but still no growth. Is it really just
:45:47. > :45:54.Of course not. There are many things the British government can
:45:54. > :45:59.do and is doing. It is important... Driving infrastructure projects,
:45:59. > :46:05.creating growth on the ground at home, creating jobs. Spending, you
:46:05. > :46:09.would like to see Morse capital spending? In one area. Housing. We
:46:09. > :46:17.know that every pound invested in housing generates �3, it generates
:46:17. > :46:20.about four jobs. It will also help tackle the housing crisis. Do you
:46:20. > :46:26.agree with Chris Huhne when he said a couple of years ago that Britain
:46:26. > :46:31.should not be lashed to the mast of austerity? No. It is not a choice.
:46:31. > :46:36.We have to bring the finances under control, we have one of the highest
:46:36. > :46:41.debt to GDP ratios of the G7. We need to take difficult decisions.
:46:41. > :46:45.We also need to do everything we can to get every infrastructure
:46:45. > :46:48.project, every piece of investment out of the door and spending the
:46:48. > :46:53.money the government is spending on those projects to develop jobs and
:46:53. > :46:57.create growth. I think the government is getting it broadly
:46:57. > :47:04.right. In terms of infrastructure spending, you would support that?
:47:04. > :47:08.Yes, it has been a part of Ed Balls's 5. Plan for a while and we
:47:09. > :47:13.continued to urge the government to do more. People this weekend will
:47:13. > :47:19.have been horrified by the sense of hopelessness we have with the
:47:19. > :47:24.Chancellor, who on the back of his shambolic budget, is now coming out
:47:24. > :47:28.and saying he has finally realised the global context that our
:47:28. > :47:32.economy... We were telling him about that during the global
:47:32. > :47:36.economic recession. What he is failing to do is get any growth
:47:36. > :47:40.into the economy, he inherited an economy that was growing and he is
:47:40. > :47:45.delivering stagnation. A sense of hopelessness? That is absolutely
:47:45. > :47:48.wrong. One of the things the Chancellor spoke about in autumn is
:47:48. > :47:53.moving forward infrastructure projects and getting private
:47:53. > :47:58.investors to invest in those. It is still in the works. There's no
:47:58. > :48:02.sense of hopelessness. If you step out of the Westminster bubble and
:48:02. > :48:06.you speak to people who have the money to invest, Britain is a safe
:48:06. > :48:11.haven. What we've got to do is give them the confidence to invest their
:48:11. > :48:14.money here. We would compromise that confidence if we go back on
:48:14. > :48:17.the central judgment that the government made at the start of
:48:17. > :48:22.this Parliament, that deficit- reduction, sensible deficit
:48:22. > :48:27.reduction should be at the heart of the policy. Christine Lagarde gave
:48:27. > :48:31.her prognosis recently of the British economy. Is there a time at
:48:31. > :48:35.which, if growth hasn't improved and we are still flatlining, say by
:48:36. > :48:39.the autumn, and we still have low interest rates, is there time that
:48:39. > :48:43.there should be a more dramatic change in terms of what the
:48:44. > :48:49.Chancellor is doing? What we can do more of, and you can always do more,
:48:49. > :48:55.is more around access to finance for businesses. It has been talked
:48:55. > :48:59.about, but it never happens. Credit easing, National Loan guarantee
:49:00. > :49:04.Scheme, is a step in the right direction. It will allow businesses
:49:04. > :49:07.to refresh existing loans, something I have called for his may
:49:07. > :49:12.be the Bank of England looking to buy corporate bonds so that
:49:12. > :49:17.businesses can get more cash for so they are more likely to hire and
:49:17. > :49:20.invest in that plant. Some of it is being done by the Treasury. What I
:49:20. > :49:24.will not be pushing for is to compromise the fundamental decision
:49:24. > :49:28.that was made at the start of the Parliament that we are going to
:49:28. > :49:32.make sure we can pay our debts in a sensible way while at the same time
:49:32. > :49:36.protecting the vulnerable. Stay with us. We will have some
:49:36. > :49:46.questions in a moment. See what kind of education you had at
:49:46. > :49:50.
:49:50. > :49:53.Now, what's seven times nine? How do you say "my name is Jo" in
:49:53. > :49:56.French? And which poet wrote about wandering "lonely as a cloud"? If
:49:57. > :49:59.you know, then well done. If not, well, Mr Gove will see you after
:49:59. > :50:02.class. Because the Education Secretary thinks that children have
:50:02. > :50:05.been "let down on the basics" by the current curriculum - leaving
:50:05. > :50:08.the UK falling behind other nations. Is he right? Our teacher's pet,
:50:08. > :50:11.young Adam Fleming, has been to find out. I've got a list of
:50:11. > :50:13.complicated words, I'm sure I know the 12 times table off by heart and
:50:13. > :50:23.we have a bus station full of people. Let's put the curriculum to
:50:23. > :50:26.
:50:26. > :50:30.the test. What is 12 times 11? 132. Close! In the Oster -- in
:50:30. > :50:36.Australia, do you learn the 12 times table? Yes. How important is
:50:36. > :50:40.it to learn things like that? not that important. 144. Everyone
:50:40. > :50:45.knows that one! Did you know you're 12 times table by the time you left
:50:45. > :50:55.school? No. In the States, do you have to learn your 12 times table?
:50:55. > :50:56.
:50:56. > :51:06.Yes. No. I didn't! Do you know how to spell accommodate? A, C, C, oh
:51:06. > :51:14.
:51:14. > :51:19.it... A, C, C, is a double M? missed out 1 M. Double M! Does
:51:19. > :51:24.anyone know any poetry? I know a few Australian ones but I will not
:51:24. > :51:33.recite them. Twinkle twinkle little star, I wonder what you are. Little
:51:33. > :51:37.Miss Muffet. Jack Horner. Jack and Jill. I could go on! You obviously
:51:37. > :51:43.know them very well. Good to see you.
:51:43. > :51:49.That is reassuring! Let's have a chat with our political bright
:51:49. > :51:55.sparks - Sam Gyimah, Toby Perkins, Stephen Gilbert. What is seven
:51:55. > :52:02.times nine? Six D three. Very good. Toby, how do you say my name is
:52:02. > :52:09.Tavy in French? Vision of hell Tavey. Who wrote I wandered lonely
:52:09. > :52:17.as a cloak? I haven't the foggiest. Wordsworth. Two points to you.
:52:17. > :52:21.You'll have to see Mr Gove after class. Report for detention. Maybe
:52:21. > :52:25.something you know about! Is this yet another change that teachers
:52:25. > :52:32.are going to resent and schools are going to resent because the biggest
:52:32. > :52:38.complaint they have his constant change. Constant change is ideally
:52:38. > :52:42.something you want to stay away from. If you are a responsible
:52:42. > :52:46.politician, when confronted with the fact that a lot of employer
:52:46. > :52:49.organisations are saying children do not have the basic mental
:52:49. > :52:56.arithmetic, spelling skills that they need when they get into the
:52:56. > :53:00.workforce, you need to do something. Labour said education, education,
:53:00. > :53:06.education. Men and people say they expect their children to know these
:53:06. > :53:09.basic things by the age of 11. Where did it fall down? There was
:53:09. > :53:17.masses of progress made under the previous Labour government in
:53:17. > :53:20.education. We now see 89% of schools having 30% of children
:53:20. > :53:25.leaving with five good GCSEs. Only half of that achieved that at the
:53:25. > :53:31.time we came into power. At the same time... It is still not very
:53:31. > :53:36.high. We moved the state education for would be a tremendous amount,
:53:36. > :53:42.but there's more to do. The move of the government towards introducing
:53:42. > :53:45.languages earlier is a positive one. At the same time, we are hearing
:53:45. > :53:50.from Michael Gove that he is listening to business, but
:53:50. > :53:54.businesses are saying that the engineering diploma or, the JCB
:53:54. > :53:59.Academy, is really valuable and he is downgrading that. The wary
:53:59. > :54:03.people have about Michael Gove is he going to listen to the
:54:03. > :54:09.educationalists or is it based on the idea -- ideology and the ideas
:54:09. > :54:13.he heard from his friends down the golf club. There's no ideology
:54:13. > :54:18.behind making sure that people can spell properly, can do their mental
:54:18. > :54:22.arithmetic. That is just educational standards. Absolutely.
:54:22. > :54:26.When you said that at the end of the Labour peerage in office, only
:54:26. > :54:30.one in three people were leaving with half of the qualifications we
:54:30. > :54:34.expect people to get. We need to make sure people who know best how
:54:34. > :54:39.to teach, the teachers, are free to do that in a way that response...
:54:39. > :54:43.Are they free? What you are seeing is a lot of educationalists saying
:54:43. > :54:48.this is the right way forward, it Free's head teachers and schools to
:54:48. > :54:53.respond to the situations they may face. When it is combined with the
:54:53. > :54:56.pupil premium, it stands much more likely heard of delivering real
:54:56. > :55:01.results. It sounds very prescriptive, all of this stuff
:55:01. > :55:06.that has been laid out. Labour did the same thing with its league
:55:06. > :55:10.tables and changing curriculums. This is a greater simplification
:55:10. > :55:14.but Mr under Labour. It was like a Christmas tree under Labour. They
:55:14. > :55:19.Hom more and more on the Christmas tree. What Michael Gove and the
:55:19. > :55:25.coalition are trying to do is free schools, freak educationalists, to
:55:25. > :55:30.report -- respond to the circumstances they face. The key
:55:30. > :55:37.test is does it put pupil's first? No doubt, when there's any change,
:55:37. > :55:41.teachers would say we don't really like this. But the key test is, is
:55:41. > :55:44.it raising educational standards and is putting pupils first? This
:55:44. > :55:50.is an important thing that needs to be tackled. What is going to
:55:50. > :55:55.change? If the figures that Toby used, if pupils were not reaching
:55:55. > :55:59.those basic standards by the age of 11, with the money that was put in
:55:59. > :56:04.under Labour, and with curriculum changes, what is going to make this
:56:04. > :56:09.any different? Are you expecting to see 60% of pupils knowing their 12
:56:09. > :56:13.times table and being able to read a reasonably hard book or not?
:56:13. > :56:16.of the things I like about what Michael Gove is doing is the
:56:16. > :56:21.recognition that raising academic standards in schools is not simply
:56:21. > :56:31.a function of how much money do is poured into the system, but is
:56:31. > :56:36.knowing what the priorities are. But the requirement to pass a
:56:36. > :56:39.language by the time you do your GCSEs is something that Labour did
:56:39. > :56:43.not put emphasis on and I'm glad we will have an emphasis on something
:56:43. > :56:50.like that. If we are going to be competitive in the global economy,
:56:50. > :56:54.it is important that our children leave school being competent in
:56:54. > :56:58.another language. Isn't there an argument that says our education
:56:58. > :57:02.system will still be behind what is needed in the workplace by the time
:57:02. > :57:10.the current primary-school children leave university or school and get
:57:10. > :57:15.a job? The first thing I would correct you on... We said 89% of
:57:15. > :57:18.schools had 30% of children leaving at a basic level, a lot of them had
:57:18. > :57:22.many more than 30%. A basic benchmark was put in place and
:57:22. > :57:28.there was a dramatic improvement against a benchmark. And in terms
:57:28. > :57:31.of the difference the government can make, what you learn from the
:57:31. > :57:36.best education systems is it is all about the way that children learn
:57:36. > :57:39.and we need less of a focus on the simple pieces of history. It does
:57:39. > :57:45.sound much more prescriptive than what it was previously. They need
:57:45. > :57:49.to know these facts. What we need is to help children to get a love
:57:49. > :57:52.of learning and on the back of that, you can hang all sorts of other
:57:52. > :57:57.things, as they do in Singapore and Hong Kong and the best education
:57:57. > :58:00.systems. Do you think poetry is important? It is, but it is not for
:58:00. > :58:06.Michael Gove to say you need to learn this poem of that poem.
:58:06. > :58:09.Children need a rate -- rounded education. You're in favour of more
:58:09. > :58:13.state interference? Find in favour of making sure that schools are
:58:13. > :58:17.free to make the difference circumstances that pupils find
:58:17. > :58:21.themselves in. There's a difference between the children going to
:58:21. > :58:26.school in my constituency and Toby's or Sam's. Why is it
:58:26. > :58:30.different? You have agreed it does about improving standards. Because
:58:30. > :58:35.of the community, the background, the levels of advantage and other
:58:35. > :58:39.aspects that individual communities face. The important point is that
:58:39. > :58:42.we deliver money to help disadvantaged children and Wheeler