:00:42. > :00:46.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. As dark economic
:00:46. > :00:51.clouds gather over Madrid, Rome and Athens, in good old Blighty, the
:00:51. > :00:54.Chancellor decides it is time for some pre-emptive action. We can
:00:54. > :00:59.deploy new firepower to defend our economy from the crisis on our
:00:59. > :01:03.doorstep. We will assess just how close the eurozone is to the brink
:01:03. > :01:05.and ask whether George and made in's plants can really save the day
:01:06. > :01:11.at home. It's been another of those
:01:11. > :01:15.difficult weeks for the coalition. Dave and Nick fall-out over Jeremy.
:01:15. > :01:20.Given all of the time they spend arguing, how does the coalition
:01:20. > :01:23.government actually work? It has been a star studded week at
:01:23. > :01:28.the Leveson Inquiry. In case you missed them, we will have the best
:01:28. > :01:33.bits from the big hitters. Could you stand up in front of your
:01:33. > :01:39.workmates and say this? I was visited by an obsessive compulsive
:01:39. > :01:44.disorder. Over the past 31 years, it has played a fairly significant
:01:44. > :01:54.part in my life. We will talk to one of the MPs who were opened
:01:54. > :01:54.
:01:54. > :01:58.their hearts on mental health in So, all of that is coming up in the
:01:58. > :02:02.next hour. With us for the duration, Andrew Pierce of the Daily Mail and
:02:02. > :02:06.political commentator Gaby Hinsliff. Welcome to you both.
:02:06. > :02:10.Let's start once again with the euro crisis. Chancellor George
:02:10. > :02:13.Osborne and Governor of the Bank of England Mervyn King last night
:02:13. > :02:19.announced new liquidity and lending measures designed to protect
:02:19. > :02:23.Britain from the DEC storm that is gathering across the Channel. The
:02:23. > :02:29.Government assessment of economic prospects was especially gloomy.
:02:29. > :02:35.The other effect of the crisis has been to create a large black cloud
:02:35. > :02:40.of uncertainty hanging over not only the euro area but our economy
:02:40. > :02:50.and, indeed, the world economy as a whole. Complete uncertainty means
:02:50. > :02:50.
:02:50. > :02:55.that the risks that will yield returns in five years' time are
:02:55. > :02:58.impossible to quantify. The black cloud has dampened spirits so that
:02:58. > :03:04.businesses and households are battening down the hatches to
:03:04. > :03:08.prepare for the storms ahead. The result is that lower spending leads
:03:08. > :03:12.to lower incomes and a self- reinforcing weaker picture for
:03:12. > :03:17.growth. There is none so cheery as a
:03:17. > :03:20.central bank governor these days(!) We have been tottering on the brink
:03:20. > :03:23.of the abyss for some time, the apocalypse just around the corner.
:03:23. > :03:30.It never quite happens. The Chancellor and the Governor would
:03:30. > :03:34.not be proposing �400 billion worth of extra liquidity for our banks if
:03:34. > :03:37.they didn't feel that something horrible was about to happen. With
:03:37. > :03:43.Greece's second election coming on Sunday and interest rates on ten-
:03:43. > :03:48.year bonds hitting 10% in Spain, which is unsustainable. We are
:03:48. > :03:52.joined by Allister Heath from City AM. They think something bad is
:03:52. > :03:58.about to happen, don't they? Clearly something is very wrong in
:03:58. > :04:00.the eurozone. First you have the Greek elections, if they vote for
:04:00. > :04:05.and against a pro-austerity party, and we don't know, because there
:04:05. > :04:10.are no polls, then we will leave the euro very quickly indeed. That
:04:10. > :04:13.is a major event. A lot of people believe it will be a Lehman
:04:13. > :04:17.Brothers style event, triggering intense disruption. The second
:04:17. > :04:21.problem is Spain. Spain is spiralling out of control. Its bail
:04:21. > :04:26.out failed miserably. In fact, it caused more problems than it solved,
:04:26. > :04:29.interest rates have gone up. Although Greece is a small economy,
:04:29. > :04:35.even if they do leave the eurozone as a result of the elections, or
:04:35. > :04:40.other matters, the firewall that was meant to be in place to stop
:04:40. > :04:44.the contagion spreading into Spain and Italy is not there, and they
:04:44. > :04:48.are both incredibly vulnerable? Absolutely. That is why they tried
:04:48. > :04:51.to bail-out Spain a week ago. To show they are strong, they have a
:04:51. > :04:55.plan of action and a workable firewall. Within a few minutes, or
:04:55. > :05:00.at least a few hours, the markets basically call their bluff. They
:05:00. > :05:05.say this is not a proper firewall, you're making the situation worse.
:05:05. > :05:08.What happens if Greece leaves the euro? Nobody has a clue. That is
:05:08. > :05:12.why central bankers are preparing all sorts of measures to pump
:05:12. > :05:14.liquidity into the system if things go wrong. We are all paying more
:05:14. > :05:18.attention to what comes out of Berlin these days because of what
:05:18. > :05:22.we have just been talking about. Has it not been remarkable this
:05:22. > :05:27.week, the radio silence from Berlin? They are not really saying
:05:27. > :05:30.anything. Absolutely. That suggests to me that they are starting to
:05:30. > :05:34.lose patience with the whole system. Quite clearly, they did not want to
:05:34. > :05:37.underwrite the entire risks of the eurozone. Something very
:05:37. > :05:41.interesting has been happening. The interest-rate on German bonds has
:05:41. > :05:45.actually started to go up. The reason for that is, yes, Germany is
:05:45. > :05:48.a very strong economy. But even they cannot take on the entire debt
:05:48. > :05:53.of all of the banks and all the countries of the eurozone. We are
:05:53. > :05:57.running out of time here. This is economics. Economics is a
:05:57. > :06:03.constraint. You cannot go any further, really. George Osborne has
:06:03. > :06:07.now indicated twice, hinted, that Greece will probably have to leave
:06:07. > :06:10.before the Germans will get around to sorting out the remains of the
:06:10. > :06:14.eurozone. If it were to leave, it could have a sense that you lose
:06:14. > :06:20.control over. Do you get the impression that in London, now, the
:06:20. > :06:24.view is that Greece is going to go and, by the way, it should go?
:06:24. > :06:27.think that is the consensus, generally speaking. A lot of multi-
:06:27. > :06:30.national countries accept that. There were stories of a large
:06:30. > :06:34.French company preparing to pull out of Greece. I think that is
:06:34. > :06:38.definitely the most likely outcome. The problem is, how are they going
:06:38. > :06:47.to react? What measures are the European authorities going to put
:06:47. > :06:51.into place when Greece does leave? There were some people against the
:06:51. > :06:54.whole formation of the eurozone. They were widely ridiculed by the
:06:54. > :06:58.establishment commentators at the time. But even the critics never
:06:58. > :07:03.thought that the eurozone would unravel in such a way that it
:07:03. > :07:07.threatens everybody? Yes. The Cassandras are all saying, you did
:07:07. > :07:10.not listen to us and we were right. They have every right to say that,
:07:10. > :07:15.although they didn't necessarily foresee this kind of unravelling.
:07:15. > :07:19.We never saw this scenario. People didn't see the crash coming and
:07:19. > :07:23.didn't see that would lead to where we are now. Rather than scrapping
:07:23. > :07:27.over who was right or wrong to start with, the worry now is that
:07:27. > :07:32.the grown-ups are not in charge, even now. Reading that speech, the
:07:32. > :07:36.Mansion House speech, you kind of feel like a passenger on a plane
:07:36. > :07:39.weather cap hundred and is saying, the bad news is that we are going
:07:39. > :07:49.to crash into the side of the mountain, but the good news is that
:07:49. > :07:49.
:07:49. > :07:55.the sandwiches are on us. When 100 billion euros bail outs, as Spain
:07:55. > :08:03.got, barely buys you 18 hours in the markets, you get the impression
:08:03. > :08:07.that the European policy elite don't know what to do? It was a
:08:07. > :08:11.sign that they were still desperate to try to preserve the idea that
:08:12. > :08:15.the single currency can still work. The deal unravelled within hours.
:08:15. > :08:19.It was on more generous terms to the Spanish deal, which could have
:08:19. > :08:23.an impact on Sunday. Clearly, the financial package announced by the
:08:23. > :08:28.Governor of the Bank of England was to pre-empt, I think, the collapse
:08:28. > :08:32.of Greece in the eurozone, which I think cannot come quick enough.
:08:32. > :08:36.Stick with us. In the face of this doom and gloom, what are Mervyn
:08:36. > :08:40.King and George Osborne doing? Last night, they announced a new scheme
:08:40. > :08:43.that has brought funding for lending. The Bank of England has
:08:43. > :08:47.agreed with the Government to provide billions of pounds,
:08:47. > :08:56.probably up to 80, of cheap credit to bags if they then lend to
:08:56. > :09:00.companies, small businesses and so on to buy houses. It would increase
:09:00. > :09:05.overall bank lending by about 5%. In addition, the Bank of England is
:09:05. > :09:09.also starting, or enhancing, a bank liquidity scheme. This was already
:09:09. > :09:13.put in place last year. It is entirely separate from the first
:09:13. > :09:18.thing. It has a catchy title, extended collateral term repo
:09:18. > :09:23.facility. What it really means is that it will make it easy and
:09:23. > :09:27.cheaper for banks themselves to borrow at least �5 billion every
:09:27. > :09:31.month to cover any shortfalls in the wholesale market between banks.
:09:31. > :09:35.It gives them cash. At the weekend, George Osborne claimed that the
:09:35. > :09:39.crisis was killing off the UK recovery. Last night he claimed
:09:39. > :09:43.there was still action that he there was still action that he
:09:43. > :09:47.could take. We are not powerless in the face of the eurozone debt storm.
:09:47. > :09:54.Together, we can deploy new firepower to defend our economy
:09:54. > :09:58.from the crisis on our doorstep. Funding for lending to the family
:09:58. > :10:03.aspiring to own their own home and the business that wants to expand.
:10:03. > :10:08.Liquidity for our high-street banks. So, will these latest measures work
:10:08. > :10:12.when previous ones have not quite seemed to, given the way the
:10:12. > :10:16.economy has flatlined in a double- dip recession? Joining me now is
:10:16. > :10:20.the shadow Treasury minister Chris Leslie and, from Cambridge, the
:10:20. > :10:24.Conservative MP Matthew Hancock. He used to be an adviser to the
:10:24. > :10:32.Chancellor before he got demoted and became an MP. Allister Heath is
:10:32. > :10:38.Batty Hancock, what makes you think that these measures will get some
:10:38. > :10:43.growth into the economy when they had and �25 million of quantitative
:10:43. > :10:47.easing, the interest rates, a 20 billion loan guarantee scheme
:10:47. > :10:52.haven't? As you say, we have got very loose monetary policy, both
:10:52. > :10:55.quantitative easing and low interest rates. But that is not
:10:55. > :10:59.being passed on into the real economy. This morning I was talking
:10:59. > :11:02.to stable lads in Newmarket, not particularly well paid, and they
:11:02. > :11:08.were saying that their mortgage rates have gone up in recent months,
:11:08. > :11:12.even though official rates have stayed flat. The proposal, which I
:11:12. > :11:16.think was a very good and timely one yesterday, was to make sure
:11:16. > :11:22.that there's very low official rates, that we have because up the
:11:22. > :11:25.credibility we have as a government to clear our debts, that those are
:11:25. > :11:29.passed on to people with mortgages and people that are running
:11:29. > :11:34.businesses. Therefore, to support them. We have got this very heavily
:11:35. > :11:37.indebted economy. Keeping rates down for people who have got those
:11:37. > :11:43.debts is an important way of making sure people have money in their
:11:43. > :11:48.pockets. If you're stable lads are complaining about the level of
:11:48. > :11:52.interest rates for mortgages, are you arguing that as a result of its
:11:52. > :11:58.measure mortgage rates are going to come down? Well, I hope that will
:11:58. > :12:03.be one of the consequences. Really?! I think if a bank can
:12:03. > :12:07.borrow more cheaply in the money markets, then they can pass on some
:12:07. > :12:11.of that lower interest rate on to their customers. One of the things
:12:11. > :12:15.we have discussed on this programme, Andrew, has been how mortgage rates
:12:15. > :12:24.have been creeping up. I hope that this liquidity support will put a
:12:24. > :12:29.stop to that. Also, I am sure it would put a stop to that if it
:12:29. > :12:32.wasn't for the second reason, also. We know there is this great debt
:12:32. > :12:35.storm in Europe, it appears to be coming to a head. I don't think
:12:35. > :12:40.they can solve that without radical structural reform, which means they
:12:40. > :12:43.are essentially have one economic policy across the eurozone. I think
:12:43. > :12:47.the reason the Spanish bail out that you were talking about didn't
:12:47. > :12:51.work was because if you throw money without a structural change to make
:12:51. > :12:56.sure that they are going to live within their means as a currency,
:12:56. > :13:00.they have got to do that and it is a huge change. We take it that
:13:00. > :13:02.things are terrible in the eurozone, we are trying to work out if the
:13:02. > :13:08.measures of your government are going to help us get through any
:13:08. > :13:12.storm. Let me bring Chris Leslie in. Do you welcome these monetary
:13:12. > :13:16.measures? Well, anything that provides some stimulus to the
:13:16. > :13:20.economy, I think, has to be welcomed. We have sort of been here
:13:20. > :13:23.before, as you were mentioning, as he went through the list of efforts
:13:23. > :13:28.on the Monetary Policy side that the Governor of the Bank of England
:13:28. > :13:32.has taken. The Governor of the Bank of England is, as some papers are
:13:32. > :13:36.reporting, is blinking now. He is saying, gosh, we have got to do
:13:36. > :13:40.something. The problem is that we have a Chancellor fixated on this
:13:40. > :13:44.austerity ideology. It really betrays the fact that I do they
:13:44. > :13:49.have fundamentally got wrong the analysis of why the economy is back
:13:49. > :13:52.in recession, all this is some sort of political device to show they
:13:52. > :13:56.have a different fiscal policy. But they really have to change course
:13:56. > :14:00.now. The Chancellor in particular has to change course. You want them
:14:00. > :14:05.to change course on fiscal policy? As a number of measures to
:14:05. > :14:09.stimulate the economy. Since I have been through this endlessly with
:14:09. > :14:13.Labour politicians, from Ed Balls down, you cannot tell us even the
:14:13. > :14:19.size of the fiscal stimulus you would want. That is not fair, in a
:14:19. > :14:25.sense. Well, tell us! If you want us to reel through Labour's 5 point
:14:25. > :14:32.plant... No, what with the fiscal stimulus be? If you look at what
:14:32. > :14:36.happened when VAT was first reduced by Alastair Darling, the Institute
:14:36. > :14:39.of Fiscal Studies talked about the positive stimulus that provided at
:14:39. > :14:45.that time. We believe that there is a case, not the only thing we
:14:45. > :14:47.should do, but a temporary VAT cut would help rebuild confidence.
:14:47. > :14:51.going to interrupt you because you're not answering my question. I
:14:51. > :14:55.know what you're matches would be. What I am saying is, since you are
:14:56. > :15:00.now saying this is not enough, we need to move on fiscal policy,
:15:00. > :15:03.perfectly respectable position to take, I am asking you to tell us by
:15:03. > :15:13.what volume would your fiscal policy be different from Mr
:15:13. > :15:13.
:15:13. > :15:18.All we can do is learn from the past. You can't answer my question?
:15:18. > :15:25.I'm trying to. We can't crystal- ball gazers and guess how many
:15:25. > :15:31.millions. Why not? There was an appreciable stimulus effective in
:15:31. > :15:37.at 2009. Looking at the bank bonus levy, helping small businesses,
:15:37. > :15:43.youth unemployment. I will try one more time. I will give you the same
:15:43. > :15:47.answer. Just give me a figure. If you were in power today, where you
:15:47. > :15:52.are at the moment, how much extra would you borrow in this financial
:15:52. > :15:58.year? We have put a figure on a reduction of 2.5% in VAT
:15:58. > :16:04.temporarily. What is your overall borrowing figure? A 12 billion
:16:04. > :16:07.pound cost. 12 billion pound more? You have to recognise, it you can't
:16:07. > :16:12.deal with a fundamental failures in our economy, the recession, to
:16:12. > :16:19.stimulate growth and job creation, all the talk about money or
:16:19. > :16:25.loosening policy will not do it. Isn't the hard fact, Alastair, the
:16:25. > :16:29.fact that the Alastair Darling fiscal policy being implemented by
:16:29. > :16:37.the government, you could barely get a cigarette paper between them.
:16:37. > :16:42.They are the same. I agree. One want to borrow 130 billion, the
:16:42. > :16:48.others 140 bn. That's a small difference, not even 1%. It won't
:16:48. > :16:51.have an effect on anything, so we need to think about, is there a
:16:51. > :16:57.difference at policies? The Government is obsessed with
:16:57. > :17:02.lowering the cost of credit. I'm not sure how much of a difference
:17:02. > :17:06.it will make. We will end up cutting the cost of borrowing by
:17:06. > :17:11.0.2% for people with mortgages and so on the Falls of how much of a
:17:11. > :17:17.difference will that make? Do you believe Mr Hancock when he says
:17:17. > :17:21.mortgage rates could come down? possibly by 0.2%. The problem is,
:17:22. > :17:26.does the simple reason why the cost of mortgages and loans have gone up.
:17:26. > :17:31.New regulations imposed by the Government, to force banks to hold
:17:31. > :17:39.more liquid capital. In a recession, they push up the cost of credit and
:17:39. > :17:46.reduce the availability. If you see mortgage rates coming down by 0.1%,
:17:46. > :17:50.that's going to help them? course. If you put 100 pound in the
:17:50. > :17:55.pocket every month of a stable lad, you would get more spending in the
:17:55. > :18:02.economy. What is interesting is that... Where does �100 come from
:18:02. > :18:07.if you cut mortgage rates by 0.1%? Alastair thinks it will be 0.1% but
:18:07. > :18:11.I hope it will be more than bad. I was talking to a stable lad this
:18:11. > :18:15.morning whose mortgage had gone up by 100 pound a month and I want to
:18:15. > :18:20.stop that happening by making sure banks have got liquidity but in the
:18:20. > :18:24.studio you have somebody saying the Government must cut faster and
:18:24. > :18:30.somebody saying the Government must cut slower, so the Government is
:18:30. > :18:34.probably in the right place. We couldn't do these things and get
:18:34. > :18:38.the low interest rates passed through if we didn't have a
:18:38. > :18:41.credible plan and be prepared to official rates at 7%, imagine
:18:41. > :18:48.watching this programme with a mortgage, imagine what that would
:18:48. > :18:53.mean? Matthews analysis is totally wrong. He's trying to claim the
:18:53. > :18:57.Chancellor's fiscal strategy is the reason for all the good things we
:18:57. > :19:02.could point 2. It's the factory have sovereignty, we were not in
:19:02. > :19:07.the euro, which has given us some degree of opportunity because of
:19:07. > :19:12.the funding costs and capital costs, but what is holding us back is the
:19:12. > :19:17.tax rises and cuts the Chancellor made which took confident about,
:19:17. > :19:23.reduced demand, long before we got into the eurozone crisis. They
:19:23. > :19:28.weakened our defences when we need a strong economy. I'm going to
:19:28. > :19:33.bring in Gavin here. The Government is clearly in difficulty. It's also
:19:33. > :19:38.interesting are the Labour argument that we are in a crisis caused by
:19:38. > :19:42.too much borrowing so we should borrow more. You almost have both
:19:42. > :19:49.sides are doing now. The Chancellor said last night the answer to debt
:19:49. > :19:53.is no more debt, and that's the basis of the austerity plan. It's
:19:53. > :19:57.more of us about having mortgages, being able to borrow, which is fine
:19:57. > :20:03.if you are borrowing for growth but I don't see there's going to be a
:20:03. > :20:07.huge demand from companies wanting to expand now. This money is going
:20:07. > :20:11.to be sought after by companies who fear they going to the wall and
:20:11. > :20:17.maybe that's a good thing. I don't think we should pretend it's going
:20:17. > :20:21.to stimulate growth. I just hope if this money comes, it goes from the
:20:21. > :20:29.banks to the small businesses if they want to expand and cheaper
:20:29. > :20:36.mortgages and does not get used by the banks to reduce the bankers
:20:36. > :20:41.debts and pay bonuses. In effect, this is the Bank of England putting
:20:41. > :20:44.money directly into the private sector. It's quite a dangerous move
:20:44. > :20:49.because what's going to happen is the Bank of England will end up
:20:49. > :20:53.with vast amounts of private sector debt on its balance sheet, so will
:20:53. > :20:58.take on quite a lot of public and private sector debt, corporate debt,
:20:58. > :21:02.mortgage debt, credit card debt and so on. It will do that with some
:21:02. > :21:07.safeguards to make sure it doesn't have too much risk, but if the
:21:07. > :21:14.economy tanks, and a lot of these loans go bad, the taxpayer would
:21:14. > :21:18.indirectly pick up the money. There is a big risk here. There is a risk
:21:18. > :21:21.the banks make riskier loans and are less prudent with their lending
:21:21. > :21:25.because they know they could pass on this debt to the Bank of England.
:21:26. > :21:29.I think there is a real risk here, and we have seen such a prime
:21:29. > :21:36.lending in the past, and that's not a good idea, either. Matthew
:21:37. > :21:41.Hancock, what evidence is there that small companies and households
:21:41. > :21:46.on mass are desperate to borrow more? Many people I speak to are
:21:46. > :21:50.paying off their debts, fed up with debt. They've had too much. They
:21:51. > :22:00.are tightening their belts, as small companies and individuals.
:22:00. > :22:03.It's easy for you to generalise. Some companies and households...
:22:03. > :22:07.There are first-time buyers who want to get on the housing ladder
:22:07. > :22:12.and buy houses. This business is expanding and find it difficult to
:22:12. > :22:18.access credit, so in an economy, like this, some people are doing
:22:18. > :22:25.what you said that others do want to expand. Its basic economics. If
:22:25. > :22:32.you make the supply of credit easier, you will have a lower price
:22:32. > :22:37.for the. The or a European banking crisis. The point that was made
:22:37. > :22:41.which said it's very important this gets of banks' balance sheets and
:22:41. > :22:48.into the real economy, that crucial, and that has got to be designed in
:22:48. > :22:53.a way to make sure that it gets into the real economy. It's about
:22:53. > :22:58.getting his official rates. Not just into the banks. It's the
:22:58. > :23:03.astonishing lack of grip on economic history which for most
:23:03. > :23:08.scary thing that from the Government. The reason is, if you
:23:08. > :23:16.look of the 1930s, when they had these cuts in expenditure and
:23:16. > :23:25.faster tax rises, as you know, in Japan, the balance sheet... In the
:23:25. > :23:29.1930s, the economy grew very fast. It did. The British economy came
:23:29. > :23:36.out of depression in the Thirties bought the it took a shorter time
:23:36. > :23:42.For the Ed Balls told us this morning, in the 1930s, the Treasury
:23:42. > :23:51.said we have to cut and that's why we stayed in depression. By the
:23:51. > :24:01.mid- 1930s, the British economy was growing by 4%. We will trade blogs
:24:01. > :24:01.
:24:01. > :24:08.online. There is a very strong rebound. Not now, though, is there?
:24:08. > :24:13.People confuse US history where there was a depression. The OK we
:24:13. > :24:18.will leave it there. Gentle man, thank you very much. Everybody else
:24:18. > :24:20.go back to their day jobs. Well, the European economy might be
:24:20. > :24:23.merrily trundling off to hell in a handcart, but at Westminster's
:24:23. > :24:26.equivalent of the X Factor, the Leveson Inquiry, it's been an
:24:26. > :24:36.exciting week, with a line up of political stars strutting their
:24:36. > :24:38.
:24:38. > :24:45.stuff before the Inquiry's very own Simon Cowell, Robert Jay QC. So, in
:24:45. > :24:49.case you missed them, here are the big hitters' best bits.
:24:49. > :24:58.Were your aides involved in using the media to force Mr Blair's
:24:58. > :25:03.resignation? I would hope not. they involved? I would hope not. I
:25:03. > :25:11.have no evidence of that. In the dinner, it became apparent in
:25:11. > :25:15.discussion that Mr Murdoch said that he really didn't like our
:25:16. > :25:22.European policies. This was no surprise to me. He didn't like our
:25:22. > :25:27.European policies and he wished me to change European policies. If we
:25:27. > :25:33.couldn't change them, his papers could not and would not support the
:25:33. > :25:37.Conservative government. As I recall, he used the word we weren't
:25:37. > :25:45.referring to his newspapers. He didn't make the usual mob towards
:25:45. > :25:52.editorial independence. There was a dinner with Rebekah Brooks. Just
:25:52. > :26:00.the four of you? No, a large number of people were there. I was at the
:26:00. > :26:04.very end of the table. By the children, so to speak. I only had a
:26:04. > :26:10.very fleeting interchanges with Rupert Murdoch before the dinner
:26:10. > :26:15.and I said goodbye at the end. I felt I was an observer more than
:26:15. > :26:19.anything else. This idea that somehow the Conservative Party and
:26:19. > :26:23.News International got together and said, you give us your support and
:26:23. > :26:29.we will way through this merger, which, by the way, we didn't even
:26:29. > :26:36.know about at that stage, it's nonsense. It was sent by Rebekah
:26:36. > :26:41.Brooks to you, 4:45pm. I understand the issue with the Times newspaper.
:26:41. > :26:45.Let's discuss over country supper soon. I'm rooting for you tomorrow.
:26:46. > :26:54.Not just as a personal friend, but because professionally we are
:26:54. > :27:00.definitely in this together. Speech of your life? Yes, he can. When you
:27:00. > :27:07.are at your constituency at weekends, did you see her every
:27:07. > :27:13.weekend or most weekends? 2008, 2009? Not every weekend. Most
:27:13. > :27:18.weekends? Mrs Cameron keeps a better weekend Diary record than I
:27:18. > :27:21.do. She reckons we probably didn't see them more than on average once
:27:22. > :27:28.every six weeks. That is a better answer than the one I was able to
:27:28. > :27:37.give you earlier. Did we learn anything this week? We learned what
:27:37. > :27:42.we already knew. Gordon Brown won't admit to briefing his people. John
:27:42. > :27:45.Major was quite a decent bloke but not really in control. The boat had
:27:45. > :27:51.a grudge matches against the media and thought they had been badly
:27:51. > :27:55.treated by the media so they turned up to put the boot in, fair enough.
:27:55. > :27:57.I think Gordon Brown is trying to rewrite the narrative that it lost
:27:57. > :28:00.the election because he was hopeless and very unpopular. He's
:28:00. > :28:05.now trying to say it was because the Murdoch press had a vendetta
:28:05. > :28:10.against him, and it simply not true. I would be recalling these
:28:10. > :28:15.witnesses if I was Lord Everson, because her were glaring
:28:15. > :28:22.differences. Rebekah Brooks says she got confirmation to run the
:28:22. > :28:26.story about Gordon Brown's child. Gordon Brown said it didn't take
:28:26. > :28:30.place, the phone call with Rupert Murdoch. One of them is lying.
:28:30. > :28:37.David Cameron seem to be doing pretty well. He was handling it,
:28:38. > :28:44.like an opening batsman. Pretty useless medium-paced bowling, I
:28:44. > :28:48.would say. Then came at Rebekah Brooks and it fell apart. But it
:28:48. > :28:55.was just embarrassing. The Prime Minister, he's on those terms with
:28:55. > :29:02.the newspaper editor. And also, a newspaper chief-executive kowtows
:29:02. > :29:06.to a Prime Minister like that. is the kind of relationship the
:29:06. > :29:12.Murdoch people had built up with Tony Blair, his people in the late
:29:12. > :29:15.1990s and the early part of the 21st century. Despite what Mr Brown
:29:15. > :29:21.says, they continued with him. David Cameron said he wasn't going
:29:21. > :29:27.to go that way. He ended up in many ways, even closer than they had
:29:27. > :29:31.been. They didn't fly halfway around the world to Australia and
:29:31. > :29:37.couldn't remember quite how that happened, actually. Presumably he
:29:37. > :29:42.got on a plane. It was a private jet, as I recall. That's why he
:29:42. > :29:46.conveniently can remember. He suffered amnesia 22 times. David
:29:46. > :29:51.Cameron was not making headway in the polls, not convincing his own
:29:51. > :29:55.party so decided to embrace the Murdoch family and he's now paying
:29:55. > :29:58.the consequences because he got far too close. Lord Everson was
:29:58. > :30:07.supposed that the press in the dock but I think he has put him in the
:30:07. > :30:12.dock. Where does that leave the The Prime Minister made it clear
:30:12. > :30:16.that he doesn't want such regulation. So what are they will
:30:16. > :30:20.implement it or not, I don't know. Only the British could come up with
:30:20. > :30:23.a system where the Prime Minister appoints someone to work out how to
:30:23. > :30:27.regulate the press, and this guy then turns to the Prime Minister
:30:27. > :30:33.and says, how would you like me to regulate the press? Incredible,
:30:34. > :30:37.quite extraordinary. But I've never understood the point of the Leveson
:30:37. > :30:40.Inquiry in the first place. There are criminal sanctions for
:30:40. > :30:44.journalists that hack into phones, they have been used before and can
:30:44. > :30:48.be used again. It's, if the over- the-top, nobody is under both...
:30:48. > :30:52.The police investigation is going to settle this. Exactly, it should
:30:52. > :30:55.have been left to the police. We knew there was good to be a
:30:55. > :31:00.regulatory system anyway. There are still more hearings to go on. But
:31:00. > :31:05.it is party conference time. Got you, there! Relax, you haven't
:31:05. > :31:08.missed the Olympics. George Galloway's Respect party is so
:31:08. > :31:12.unconventional that they hold their conference in July. Where better
:31:12. > :31:16.than sunny Bradford, where Gorgeous George sensationally won the by-
:31:16. > :31:19.election back in March? Is that trying for the start of something
:31:19. > :31:26.big or just one of these many periodic flashes in the
:31:27. > :31:32.parliamentary pan? Len Tingle has been to Bradford to find out.
:31:32. > :31:40.the most sensational result in British by-election history, bar
:31:40. > :31:43.none, represents the Bradford spring. But it has been a much
:31:43. > :31:47.slower journey towards that Bradford spring. Within hours of
:31:47. > :31:51.his by-election victory, George Galloway boasted that Respect
:31:52. > :31:55.candidates would flood the upcoming local council elections, seizing
:31:55. > :32:00.the balance of power from a Labour group just two short of a majority.
:32:00. > :32:04.In the event, just 12 candidates came forward, did reasonably well,
:32:04. > :32:07.winning five seats, one of them hitting the headlines by toppling
:32:07. > :32:12.veteran Labour council leader from his seat. But it wasn't quite
:32:12. > :32:17.enough to make a difference inside City Hall. As Respect grabbed the
:32:17. > :32:19.headlines, Labour grabbed a few seats of their own, largely from
:32:19. > :32:25.the Liberal Democrat and Conservatives in different parts of
:32:25. > :32:29.the city. That left them with fortified councillors -- 45
:32:29. > :32:37.councillors, exactly half of those on the authority. With three greens
:32:37. > :32:41.supporting them, that gives them an automatic majority leaving
:32:41. > :32:46.Respect's 5 council has not holding the balance of power but out in the
:32:46. > :32:51.cold. It leaves them in the same position as a number of parties in
:32:51. > :32:55.Bradford, just short of the Liberal Democrats. We will listen to their
:32:55. > :32:59.point or Huw, but I will be concentrating on delivering for the
:32:59. > :33:02.people of Bradford and delivering on the manifesto. It was a
:33:02. > :33:11.disappointment that we didn't have more councillors. But I think what
:33:11. > :33:17.we can do is ask the awkward questions, really raise the issues
:33:17. > :33:20.that our constituents are saying to us. The awkward squad's success is
:33:20. > :33:26.having an effect. This was Ed Miliband in Bradford just last
:33:26. > :33:31.weekend, addressing Labour's regional spring conference. We lost
:33:31. > :33:36.the by-election. We made gains overall in the council elections,
:33:36. > :33:40.but it was a struggle for us. A struggle against Respect. We need
:33:40. > :33:46.to learn the lessons of that. Tomorrow, George Galloway steps up
:33:46. > :33:54.on the platform at his party conference. His message, as far as
:33:54. > :33:58.he is concerned Respect's journey Now, it has been a difficult week
:33:58. > :34:03.for the coalition with Nick Clegg refusing to back David Cameron or
:34:03. > :34:06.his decision to spare Jeremy Hunt and investigation into whether he
:34:06. > :34:09.breached the Ministerial Code. It is just another example of the
:34:09. > :34:14.tensions that ebb and flow around the coalition as they head towards
:34:14. > :34:17.the halfway point in the parliamentary term. So, what do we
:34:17. > :34:21.know about how the coalition functions and how it will develop
:34:21. > :34:24.as the next election is? We are joined by Peter Riddell, the man
:34:24. > :34:31.behind the Institute for the Government's report into war of
:34:31. > :34:35.this. We are almost at the mid-term. There are obviously tensions. We
:34:35. > :34:40.are not used to coalitions in peace time in this country. Has it
:34:40. > :34:45.worked? That is the key point. We are not used to them. A lot of
:34:45. > :34:49.politicians, people in the media, commentators, they still there soon
:34:49. > :34:53.we will be backed where majority. Most countries are soon that
:34:53. > :34:58.coalitions are the norm. There was a lot of experience from overseas
:34:58. > :35:02.and Scotland, which used to have coalitions, on how to work it. It
:35:02. > :35:08.is quite normal, or it is normal for single-party governments to run
:35:08. > :35:13.into trouble mid-term, but it is also normal for coalitions.
:35:13. > :35:17.Coalitions have formal agreements. A lot of the boxes were ticked. Not
:35:17. > :35:21.all, but most of them. How do you move onto an election when the
:35:21. > :35:27.constituent parties are going to fight each other? What we are due
:35:27. > :35:37.in our report, A Game of Two Hearts, is that you have to think about it
:35:37. > :35:44.now. There is not the political will there to go into it as a
:35:44. > :35:47.coalition, but the Government has to go on as problems emerge.
:35:47. > :35:50.Although the coalition agreement has, in a sense, run out of steam,
:35:51. > :35:54.in that a lot of the things they have agreed have either been done
:35:54. > :36:01.or kicked into the long grass, there is not the political will
:36:01. > :36:06.within the coalition to come up with a Mark two coalition agreement
:36:06. > :36:11.to see them through to the next election? Not a big agreement. When
:36:11. > :36:15.you say it has not been achieved, it has been achieved legislatively.
:36:15. > :36:18.The key is implementation. They passed a reform bill, but we are a
:36:18. > :36:24.long way from seeing Universal credit. The Health Bill has been
:36:24. > :36:27.passed, a long wait to go until implementation. Even in that the
:36:27. > :36:32.agreement, there is a lot of legislation still in the Queen's
:36:32. > :36:36.speech. There is still a lot to be done. What I do argue is, at this
:36:36. > :36:42.stage, you're not going to get wildly radical new areas emerging.
:36:42. > :36:46.There is still a lot to do on implementation. Isn't there also
:36:46. > :36:53.pressure from the Lib Dems and the Tory backbenchers that as the next
:36:53. > :36:58.election approaches, far from having a marked tour agreement,
:36:59. > :37:02.they should start to go their separate ways? We had an event with
:37:02. > :37:06.Jack McConnell, First Minister of Scotland. He has an interesting
:37:06. > :37:11.take on this. He said, yes, you're bound to have people fighting each
:37:11. > :37:15.other. But you have got to balance that with what is necessary to make
:37:15. > :37:20.government work. To produce a growth agenda, respond to difficult
:37:20. > :37:24.events, that has got to be done. You recognise that you cannot do
:37:24. > :37:28.really controversial things that will divide them. You can't to
:37:28. > :37:32.another health plan. What you can do is get a little win for either
:37:32. > :37:36.party. That is crucial. Recognise you are going to have more
:37:36. > :37:40.differentiation, but try to have the internal self discipline. The
:37:40. > :37:43.real problem is the big challenges like on spending. Can you take
:37:44. > :37:48.difficult decisions that will last after the election? But that is one
:37:48. > :37:54.thing they have stuck by. Although Nick Clegg may not want to support
:37:54. > :37:58.Jeremy Hunt, there is then leaked half of the budget, all of the rest
:37:58. > :38:02.of it, one thing in his coalition where it has been difficult to see
:38:02. > :38:06.any unity has been on deficit reduction. You can argue that shows
:38:06. > :38:10.the success of the coalition. That is the big thing. From the Lib Dem
:38:10. > :38:14.point of view, they can say, we stuck to it, it was vitally
:38:14. > :38:18.necessary... That might be the only thing they agree on. Look at Greece
:38:18. > :38:21.and Spain, so on. We are probably going to have another spending
:38:21. > :38:26.review before the election. The paid on public spending is far from
:38:26. > :38:32.over. Has this coalition done better or worse than you would have
:38:32. > :38:35.expected? Well, I take Peter's point. We are not used to coalition
:38:35. > :38:38.and we didn't know what to expect. I actually thought it would only
:38:38. > :38:41.last a year. Now I am convinced that there go the whole course.
:38:41. > :38:46.Vince Cable talking about disengagement before the election,
:38:46. > :38:56.maybe they will break up six months before. A lot of the troops low
:38:56. > :39:02.
:39:02. > :39:06.Do so it would wind-up if he got Whether the Lib Dems de wave runner
:39:06. > :39:13.six or nine months before the next election, we may have to get used
:39:13. > :39:17.to coalitions. As the polls stand at the moment, looking at what
:39:17. > :39:20.happens as elections approach, the most likely outcome is a hung
:39:20. > :39:25.parliament? That would be extremely difficult for the Conservative
:39:25. > :39:30.Party to swallow. The assumption was that we will put up with it,
:39:30. > :39:32.everything has to be focused on winning a majority in 2015. Much of
:39:32. > :39:36.the tension between Cameron and the troops comes from a feeling on the
:39:36. > :39:40.right of the party that he doesn't really want an outright victory, it
:39:40. > :39:44.quite suits him to be in coalition, and he will not be what is
:39:44. > :39:48.necessary to secure an outright Conservative victory. At the moment,
:39:48. > :39:52.we are a long way away, but at the moment the likely outcome is Labour
:39:52. > :39:56.will be the largest party after the next election. They could form a
:39:56. > :40:00.coalition with the Lib Dems. This is one of the reasons why people
:40:00. > :40:04.did not like continental politics. No matter what the election result
:40:04. > :40:09.is, the balance of power is always held by the same folk, even if they
:40:09. > :40:13.do badly? This is produced by first past the post. It doesn't matter
:40:13. > :40:17.what the system is. Will people take kindly to the Lib Dems, after
:40:17. > :40:22.being in bed for five years with the Tories, saying, we got enough
:40:22. > :40:27.of you, now we are getting a bed with Labour? If that is how the
:40:27. > :40:32.electorate votes, we have to cope with that. It is what will happen
:40:32. > :40:36.in closed rooms after the vote. the electorate did not produce a
:40:36. > :40:40.majority government last time. This scenario is perfectly reasonable.
:40:40. > :40:46.We have to make the best of it. Even if the Lib Dems lose 20 seats
:40:46. > :40:52.at the next election, but Labour gets about 300, the Lib Dems will
:40:52. > :41:00.still be in power? Not necessarily. It doesn't matter how the Lib Dems
:41:00. > :41:06.do, they still end up with power? As Andrew was saying, what we might
:41:06. > :41:10.see, a remote possibility, is a minority government... Up which is
:41:10. > :41:20.what we thought was going to happen at the last election? If it did
:41:20. > :41:24.happen, effectively, in 1974. That could happen again. We have learned
:41:24. > :41:29.from this experience. We spent our lives with majority governments.
:41:29. > :41:33.You've got to learn the lessons from abroad, you have to plan. The
:41:33. > :41:36.social services have a plan, the politicians have a plan for
:41:36. > :41:45.scenarios which may be unpalatable. But that is the card that the
:41:45. > :41:50.Politicians get plenty of criticism. Not on this programme, obviously,
:41:50. > :41:53.but I am told it does happen on others. There are occasions where
:41:53. > :42:00.parliamentarians make headlines for all of the right reasons.
:42:00. > :42:05.Yesterday's debate of mental health was such a case. In 1996, I
:42:05. > :42:10.suffered quite a deep depression. It was related to work issues and
:42:10. > :42:18.other things going on in my life. That is the first time I have ever
:42:18. > :42:22.spoken to anybody about it. Like a lot of men, what do you do is try
:42:22. > :42:26.to deal with it yourself. You do not talk to people. I just hope you
:42:26. > :42:30.realise what I am saying is very difficult for me now. I thought
:42:30. > :42:34.very long and hard. I didn't make the decision until I put my notes
:42:34. > :42:40.down to do it. It is hard because you do not recognise, first of all,
:42:40. > :42:44.that it creeps up on you very slowly. Also, in politics, we are
:42:44. > :42:52.designed to think that somehow if you admit fault or fail to eat you
:42:52. > :42:56.are going to be -- or failure, you're going to be looked upon in a
:42:56. > :43:00.disparaging way in terms of the electorate and your peers. Whether
:43:00. > :43:04.this naked admission means any future ministerial career is
:43:04. > :43:07.blighted forever, I was a minister in the last government and I think
:43:07. > :43:16.most people thought I did a reasonable job on both sides of a
:43:16. > :43:20.house. I think we have got to talk about mental health in this place,
:43:20. > :43:26.and people who have got an experience of it personally in this
:43:26. > :43:31.house. I am delighted to say that I have been a practising fruitcake
:43:31. > :43:36.for 31 years. It was 13 years ago, at St John's Wood tube station and
:43:36. > :43:42.I remember it vividly, that I was visited by the obsessive compulsive
:43:42. > :43:47.disorder. Over the past 31 years, it has played a fairly significant
:43:47. > :43:53.part in my life. On occasions, it is manageable. On occasions, it
:43:53. > :43:57.becomes quite difficult. It takes you to some quite dark places. But
:43:57. > :44:02.I operate to the rule of four. I have to do everything even. I have
:44:02. > :44:06.to wash my hands four times. I have to go in and out of a room four
:44:06. > :44:11.times. My wife and children say I resemble an extra from Riverdance
:44:11. > :44:16.aside bounce in and out of the run. Switching lights of four times. Woe
:44:16. > :44:23.betide me if I switch off a lie to five times, then I have to do it
:44:23. > :44:30.another three times. One in four people to experience mental illness
:44:30. > :44:40.at some point in their lives. I also have experience of severe
:44:40. > :44:42.
:44:42. > :44:46.depression, at the happiest time of mind -- my life, I experienced
:44:46. > :44:49.postnatal depressing. I am sure many people in this House will know
:44:50. > :44:55.exactly what it feels like to feel that your family were genuinely
:44:55. > :45:01.better off without you. Two experienced the paralysis that can
:45:01. > :45:04.come with severe depression. I have been pretty healthy for five years.
:45:05. > :45:09.When you let your guard down, this aggressive friend comes and smacks
:45:09. > :45:13.you ride in the face. I was on holiday and I took a beautiful
:45:13. > :45:18.photograph of my son carrying a fishing rod. There was my beautiful
:45:18. > :45:22.son, carrying a fishing rod. I was glowing with pride. Then the voice
:45:22. > :45:25.starts, if you do not get rid of that photograph, your child will
:45:25. > :45:28.dive. You fight those voices for a couple of hours. You know you
:45:28. > :45:32.should not give in to them because they should not be there. And it
:45:32. > :45:42.ain't going to happen. In the end, you're not going to risk it so you
:45:42. > :45:44.
:45:45. > :45:48.give in to the voices and then you Charles Walker joins me now.
:45:48. > :45:51.Welcome to the Daily Politics. Kevin Jones said he found it
:45:51. > :45:56.difficult to do what he did in the Commons yesterday though he was
:45:57. > :46:00.glad he did. I heard you say you didn't find it difficult. When I
:46:00. > :46:04.decided to do it, I didn't find it difficult but liberating, to be
:46:04. > :46:09.honest. It's a bit like Crocodile Dundee when I ask him, what do you
:46:09. > :46:15.do when you have a problem? Well, we tell Wally and everybody tells
:46:15. > :46:21.everybody else and is not a problem. It may go on being part of my life,
:46:21. > :46:27.and I'm just very relieved. I'm the same person as I was yesterday. I'm
:46:27. > :46:33.just more honest. What brought this about? How do these remarkable
:46:33. > :46:36.speech is take place? I can only speak for myself. Since I answered
:46:36. > :46:40.Parliament seven years ago, I have campaigned on mental health and
:46:40. > :46:45.spoken about issues. I'm a chairman of the All Party Mental Health
:46:45. > :46:49.Group, and we are changing the mood at the moment. The mood of the
:46:50. > :46:53.country can change of course, and we have a very active all-party
:46:53. > :46:59.group. There is a bill coming for the to end the discrimination
:46:59. > :47:03.against MPs, serving on company boards, so the time is right. We
:47:03. > :47:08.had a backbench debate yesterday and the time seemed right to give
:47:08. > :47:14.up some momentum and both Kevin and I have received extraordinary
:47:14. > :47:20.number of e-mails. Tell me about the response. Overwhelming. It has
:47:20. > :47:25.been quite emotional, as well. People from all walks of life,
:47:25. > :47:30.doing all sorts of jobs saying thank you for giving us a voice
:47:30. > :47:35.because they feel frightened, excluded, ashamed. And we can't
:47:35. > :47:40.have that any more. We can have the NHS doing great things but we have
:47:40. > :47:45.to have society embracing these people. It couldn't have happened
:47:45. > :47:52.20 years ago, could it? You had a very sympathetic press this morning
:47:52. > :47:58.but I look back at some of the old Press, and bonkers Bruno locked up
:47:58. > :48:03.a from of the Sun newspaper. In times gone by, the press would have
:48:03. > :48:08.been more hostile. They would have been. We criticise other press a
:48:08. > :48:13.lot. But let me say, the press are getting their act together on this.
:48:13. > :48:17.In the last four years, the press have decided to approach this in a
:48:17. > :48:21.responsible way and real improvements are being seen. We
:48:21. > :48:26.could all do more but the press is now beginning to play its part.
:48:26. > :48:31.Hard to see this taking place in a newspaper office. Yes, it would be
:48:31. > :48:37.hard to admit to. I admire everybody for coming out with it in
:48:37. > :48:40.public and I hope it's a sign that times are changing and I think it
:48:40. > :48:45.started with Alastair Campbell talking about his depression.
:48:45. > :48:49.Suddenly, a dam broke in a certain way, but there are still industries
:48:49. > :48:54.in the City, for example, where it's very hard to admit to any kind
:48:54. > :48:59.of mental frailty. I just hope people who suffer with the same
:48:59. > :49:04.illnesses feel encouraged. I agree and it's fantastic that MPs
:49:04. > :49:09.speaking out like that has put mental health at the centre of
:49:09. > :49:14.debate. Normally, it never gets mentioned. I think it's great and I
:49:14. > :49:19.congratulate you, Charles. Can I just say, very quickly, my mental
:49:19. > :49:23.health problems have given me great personal strength and that's the
:49:23. > :49:27.interesting part. A lot of people are doing extraordinary jobs in our
:49:27. > :49:32.mental health problems but it made the more capable. We are going to
:49:32. > :49:36.get behind Gavin Barwell's Bill, because that will give momentum
:49:36. > :49:39.over the next year. I hope the collective front benchers of
:49:39. > :49:45.recognise something important is happening here. Mental health has
:49:46. > :49:49.not had people to speak out for it. When the cuts come, it always the
:49:49. > :49:57.mental health services to get the biggest cuts. People 10 to make
:49:57. > :50:04.less noise, but we are making noise now. It is new territory, like
:50:04. > :50:08.jumping into a cold swimming pool. But I really hope that Kevin and I
:50:08. > :50:11.are reaching out to one of the people out there and there could be
:50:11. > :50:15.some hope about their bad things are going to get better. In five
:50:15. > :50:18.years' time, things will be better for me than they are now in 10
:50:18. > :50:22.years' time, much better and I think that would be a real
:50:22. > :50:28.achievement. Some think politics could be proud of one at this time
:50:28. > :50:31.we are struggling. Let's hope the media continues to grow. Thank you
:50:31. > :50:35.for coming in and speaking to us today and for yesterday's
:50:35. > :50:45.contribution in the Commons. Right, it's time now to look back at the
:50:45. > :50:49.
:50:49. > :50:52.political week gone by in 60 It's been a bit of a 1 draw Week in
:50:52. > :51:02.politics with plenty of PMT, pre- match tension, but no last minute
:51:02. > :51:03.
:51:03. > :51:12.winner. Robert Jay, he faced a flat back four of George Osborne, David
:51:12. > :51:17.Cameron, John Major and Gordon Brown. Nick Clegg refused to back
:51:17. > :51:20.the coalition's Culture Secretary. Elsewhere, there will be a
:51:20. > :51:25.referendum for Falkland Islanders on staying British, penguins will
:51:25. > :51:31.not get a boat but here is a picture of them anyway. -- a vote.
:51:31. > :51:37.More pain for Spain and a message for the Church of England on its
:51:37. > :51:42.row over gay marriage. Once again, their talk about the things which
:51:42. > :51:50.obsesses them, sex. Despite that, the Government is seldom on, as, we
:51:50. > :51:53.hope, will England. -- sold on. a soldier on Nov.
:51:53. > :51:55.As we've heard, the argument over gay marriage rages on, with the
:51:55. > :51:57.Church of England warning that government promises to exempt
:51:57. > :52:03.religious organisations from carrying out same-sex marriages
:52:03. > :52:06.will not survive challenges in the European Courts. One supporter of a
:52:06. > :52:13.change in the law is former Liberal Democrat MP Evan Harris who joins
:52:13. > :52:17.us now. Welcome to the programme. One critic of the plans is our
:52:17. > :52:23.guest Andrew Pierce. We just bought a people with incredible forward
:52:23. > :52:27.planning. Andrew, you are gay. You wrote a piece in the Daily Mail are
:52:27. > :52:32.doing against gay marriage. Why it wouldn't you just want a simple
:52:32. > :52:37.quality? This is an argument about the word, marriage, because every
:52:37. > :52:41.gay person I know Ynysybwl partnership regarded as a marriage,
:52:41. > :52:46.and what we are going to see is an incredible battle with the Church
:52:46. > :52:48.because the genie is out of the bottle. The Prime Minister's
:52:48. > :52:52.parliamentary private secretary said a religious premises will just
:52:52. > :53:01.have to accept that gay marriages can take place on their territory.
:53:01. > :53:04.I don't think it is for politicians to tell the Church who they can and
:53:04. > :53:11.can't marry on their premises. I don't agree with a Catholic
:53:11. > :53:15.Church's teaching on homosexuality, of course I don't. Nor the Anglian
:53:15. > :53:18.church who allows the because to be gay as long as they don't practise.
:53:18. > :53:23.How the Archbishop of Canterbury and forces that, I'm yet to be told.
:53:23. > :53:33.I think we're in a good position as gay men and women, with a civil
:53:33. > :53:33.
:53:33. > :53:37.party should and heterosexual can't. What is your response? It and he
:53:37. > :53:42.doesn't want to get married to his partner, then don't get married,
:53:42. > :53:46.but you shouldn't be are doing, unless you have a bit more of an
:53:46. > :53:51.argument against it, for that right to be available to other people.
:53:51. > :53:58.Organisations that represent gay people including some that you
:53:58. > :54:03.support, say there is a demand for gay people to have the same access
:54:03. > :54:07.to civil marriage, as everybody else. And obviously, there are
:54:07. > :54:10.positions against that for the not had a sexual positions, but
:54:10. > :54:13.conservative positions. Many Conservatives oppose the idea
:54:13. > :54:16.because there is a marriage is special and different from civil
:54:16. > :54:21.partnerships and therefore should not be available to same-sex
:54:21. > :54:24.couples. You can't have it both ways, Conservatives. You can't say
:54:24. > :54:30.it is special and therefore should not be available and then say it's
:54:30. > :54:37.the same as civil partnership and why can't you be happy? It's not
:54:37. > :54:39.about being a Conservative but how I see it. I just always believed
:54:39. > :54:43.when this will publish its legislation came around, when Jack
:54:43. > :54:49.Straw said it's different marriage, marriage is a man and woman, Jack
:54:49. > :54:54.Straw is not on the record changing his position of course,... Is that
:54:54. > :55:00.your position? The Iping civil partnership is a fantastic
:55:00. > :55:06.invention. It's not marriage. it's not. That's what you think the
:55:06. > :55:13.don't close it down for everybody else for the stone wall were not
:55:13. > :55:20.campaigning for this. It wasn't in the manifestos. It wasn't in the
:55:20. > :55:25.Liberal Democrats gain manifesto. Liberal Democrats, I admit...
:55:25. > :55:30.of the parties did. You did not put it in the manifesto puts up we put
:55:30. > :55:35.the proposal to our conference in 20th September 10. Six months after
:55:35. > :55:40.the election. We have led the way. Polls show that there is broad
:55:40. > :55:47.support for this but the only argument Andrew made against the
:55:47. > :55:51.proposition, and that is the ridiculous idea that religions
:55:51. > :55:56.would be forced to do civil marriages. This is about civil
:55:57. > :55:59.marriage. The Government are not proposing to allow an opt-in by
:55:59. > :56:04.religious organisations who are happy to do it. No religious
:56:04. > :56:08.organisation has been forced to do civil partnerships against its will
:56:08. > :56:14.and they don't accept for a moment this self-serving argument you
:56:14. > :56:20.mentioned that they will be forced by human rights. It absolutely
:56:20. > :56:25.wrong. If the only argument they have, but they will be forced to in
:56:25. > :56:33.a civil marriage. Crispin Blunt said this week that would has
:56:33. > :56:37.premises will be required to do so. He says civil marriages. The if you
:56:37. > :56:47.find people saying one thing is to back up Godwin, that's fine but if
:56:47. > :56:48.
:56:48. > :56:53.What he is saying is that this only affects a civil marriages and the
:56:53. > :57:00.Church is not forced to do do civil marriages so why would it be forced
:57:00. > :57:05.to do gays civil marriages? There is a point, the there is an overlap
:57:06. > :57:12.between the Church of England in particular and marriage because of
:57:12. > :57:17.the links between the Church and State in this country but you can
:57:17. > :57:21.separate but it it was needed without it impinging on
:57:21. > :57:24.establishment or religious freedom, so I'm very keen on a religious
:57:24. > :57:33.freedoms and if people don't want to do religious services, they
:57:33. > :57:37.don't have to. It's different from the adoption argument you made.
:57:37. > :57:40.you be the voice of reason? I think we should grow up and get over the
:57:40. > :57:48.whole thing. I cannot understand the argument is undermines marriage
:57:48. > :57:52.of. The churches are doing it. cannot understand the argument that
:57:52. > :57:57.vicars may or may not personally wish to marry gay couples, fine of
:57:57. > :58:01.four for that's not going to be necessary. I don't see why it has
:58:01. > :58:04.to occupy the time and space it does. Do we have any evidence that
:58:04. > :58:14.it of England and Catholic Church actually speak for their
:58:14. > :58:19.congregations? Their congregations are dwindling, of course. Is it
:58:19. > :58:24.right for the state to interfere? They are free to do their own thing
:58:24. > :58:28.and should not have a veto on civil marriages. That's our businesses.
:58:28. > :58:33.The Church of England doesn't allow its own clergy to be properly gay,
:58:33. > :58:36.so how on earth, be involved in same-sex marriage? We have to leave
:58:36. > :58:40.it there. Thank you. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The
:58:40. > :58:44.One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now. I'll be back on BBC