:00:42. > :00:45.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. It could be back to
:00:45. > :00:48.the 80s for exams, as the Government considers a return to O
:00:48. > :00:53.levels. We'll ask whether the changes could restore the
:00:53. > :00:56.reputation of secondary school qualifications. Paying your taxes?
:00:56. > :01:01.You're having a laugh. Comedian Jimmy Carr apologies for avoiding
:01:01. > :01:05.tax after David Cameron slaps him down. But will the joke end up
:01:05. > :01:08.being on the Prime Minister? doctors take industrial action
:01:08. > :01:14.today over government changes to their pension scheme, the BMA and
:01:14. > :01:17.the Health Minister join us to debate the issues. And as Aung San
:01:17. > :01:20.Suu Kyi visits Westminster on the latest leg of her trip to the UK,
:01:20. > :01:25.we'll ask Foreign Office Minister Jeremy Browne why the Government is
:01:25. > :01:29.also inviting the military-backed Burmese President to Britain.
:01:29. > :01:37.what of England's chances at the Euros? We've been asking
:01:37. > :01:44.parliament's best footballing brains if they can go all the way.
:01:44. > :01:48.We must not get carried away. We have to take each game as it comes.
:01:48. > :01:53.I think he will be getting carried away when it comes to the match
:01:53. > :01:55.with Italy, even carried out! All that in the next hour. With us for
:01:55. > :02:01.the duration former Director General of the CBI, Labour Trade
:02:01. > :02:07.Minister and keen football fan, it says here, Digby Jones. He supports
:02:07. > :02:13.Aston Villa, which I'm told is a football team! Thank you for having
:02:13. > :02:16.me. Prince William supports him. And also David Cameron. Welcome.
:02:16. > :02:22.Let's start with David Cameron's decision to criticise the TV comic
:02:22. > :02:25.Jimmy Carr for his tax arrangements. It was revealed in the Times
:02:25. > :02:29.newspaper. The comedian has been using an off-shore scheme to pay as
:02:29. > :02:31.little as 1% income tax. This morning Mr Carr said he'd made a
:02:31. > :02:40.terrible error of judgement, despite the scheme being entirely
:02:40. > :02:45.legal. Here's what Mr Cameron had to say. Some of these schemes where
:02:45. > :02:49.people are parking huge amounts of money offshore and taking loans are
:02:49. > :02:54.back to minimise their tax rates, it is not morally acceptable and I
:02:54. > :02:59.put it like this. Think of all those people who work hard, pay
:02:59. > :03:02.their taxes, and out of their post- tax incomes, save up to go and see
:03:02. > :03:08.Jimmy Carr, he is taking that money and of putting it somewhere where
:03:08. > :03:12.he does not have to pay taxes. That is not right. The Prime Minister
:03:12. > :03:19.talked about the morality of paying taxes in relation to Jimmy Carr's
:03:19. > :03:23.tax affairs. Should be commenting on individual tax payer? He is in
:03:23. > :03:26.Mexico taking a trade delegation with him, and they wish he had
:03:26. > :03:31.stuck to his knitting and created jobs and wealth for Britain by
:03:31. > :03:35.being there, rather commenting on such a domestic issue, but it's a
:03:35. > :03:41.very, very difficult path for a Democratic elected politician to
:03:41. > :03:45.take. On the one side, it's great politics. Especially at the moment,
:03:45. > :03:50.it is excellent to be able to say, we've got these rich people not
:03:50. > :03:59.breaking the law but they are morally repugnant. That's a phrase
:03:59. > :04:04.which could come back to haunt them. Spot on. To get popularity, the
:04:04. > :04:07.problem is, one man's tax avoidance is another man's planning. And
:04:07. > :04:11.everybody does something which is perfectly legal but is a way of
:04:11. > :04:17.minimising it. Jimmy Carr says he met with his financial adviser who
:04:17. > :04:21.asked them, do you want to pay less tax and it's totally legal? Jimmy
:04:21. > :04:27.Carr said yes. What is morally repugnant about that? If it's so
:04:27. > :04:29.bad, why doesn't the Government close the loophole? Labour was in
:04:29. > :04:35.power for 13 years, and the loophole has been there all this
:04:35. > :04:40.time. If these things are so wrong, why do they exist? I actually sat
:04:41. > :04:46.next to Gordon Brown at a dinner and he was clamping down on self-
:04:46. > :04:50.employed IT professionals. Years ago, now. I remember saying, why
:04:50. > :04:55.are you going after these people? What they are doing is illegal. And
:04:55. > :05:00.not every professional footballer in the Premiership? Frankly, the
:05:00. > :05:04.tax avoidance, which goes on with highly remunerated of footballers...
:05:04. > :05:09.He said, if you think I'm going to lose the boats are the people who
:05:09. > :05:12.support these footballers, you have got to be joking. -- the votes.
:05:12. > :05:15.People have to make a moral judgement about what they do and
:05:16. > :05:19.then governments are there to reflect the electorate's view on
:05:19. > :05:23.whether it should be illegal or not and if it's not right, pass a law
:05:23. > :05:29.to stop it. Over the years, politicians of all persuasions have
:05:29. > :05:33.made the tax code more and more complicated. And they have put
:05:33. > :05:37.taxes on there and loopholes there. Look at the film schemes introduced
:05:37. > :05:44.by Labour as a way to get money in, but the tax guide under Gordon
:05:44. > :05:49.Brown went from this thick to this thick. My accountant said to me, I
:05:49. > :05:54.can't carry around the tax code any more because it's too big. With
:05:54. > :05:59.smart accountants, finding dodgy ways around it... We have a
:05:59. > :06:03.politician railing against the market. You put it tax up to a rate
:06:03. > :06:07.where it pays some body to try to avoid it but it was lower, people
:06:07. > :06:15.wouldn't do it. If the market doesn't like what Jimmy Carr is
:06:15. > :06:19.doing, they won't go and watch his show. How do you differentiate
:06:19. > :06:27.between it aggressive tax avoidance and straightforward tax avoidance?
:06:27. > :06:32.I do great... I gave money to charity and a try to put other 10
:06:32. > :06:36.and I took huge exception to being told, when I put a bit in and the
:06:36. > :06:40.Government puts a bit in and the charity gets it, it is morally
:06:40. > :06:45.repugnant tax avoidance. I thought, if you're going go down this path,
:06:45. > :06:48.be careful because you will put a lot of people down a road where
:06:48. > :06:51.they have a label they don't deserve or forgive. The Prime
:06:51. > :06:56.Minister has made to open season on people like Jimmy Carr. We should
:06:56. > :07:00.look at Tory donors, Tory MPs, Cabinet colleagues, celebrity
:07:00. > :07:05.supporters. We will see where this ends. It will be very interesting.
:07:05. > :07:09.Now, today's Daily Mail has something of a scoop. We are giving
:07:09. > :07:12.the Daily Mail credit. Usually it just steals other people's scoops
:07:12. > :07:15.and does not give them credit. They've got hold of leaked
:07:15. > :07:17.documents from the Department of Education on Government plans to
:07:17. > :07:21.overhaul the exam system. Michael Gove was summoned to the Commons
:07:21. > :07:24.this morning to confirm the plans which he said are going out to
:07:24. > :07:30.consultation. So what has he got in mind and what could it mean for
:07:30. > :07:33.school children in England? Here's Jo with the details. Yes, it seems
:07:33. > :07:37.Michael Gove and his team have been burning the midnight oil. They've
:07:37. > :07:40.come up with a new plan for school exams in England. Well, not so new
:07:40. > :07:46.as it turns out. They're looking at getting rid of GCSEs and bringing
:07:46. > :07:49.back O Level style exams. Remember them? It's understood the Education
:07:49. > :07:52.Secretary believes GCSEs have led to a collapse in standards. And the
:07:52. > :07:56.new tests would, it's claimed, meet or exceed the highest standards in
:07:56. > :07:59.the world for that age group. The subjects would include English,
:07:59. > :08:02.Maths and the individual sciences Physics, Chemistry and Biology.
:08:02. > :08:08.There could also be new exams in History, Geography and modern
:08:08. > :08:11.languages. Less able pupils might also sit a simpler CSE-style exam.
:08:11. > :08:14.What's more, it's been reported that Mr Gove wants just one exam
:08:14. > :08:17.board to set the new papers instead of schools being able to pick and
:08:17. > :08:22.chose, something which ministers have claimed contributes to a race
:08:22. > :08:24.to the bottom. However head teachers will have more choice on
:08:24. > :08:26.what they teach, as the plans include proposals to scrap the
:08:26. > :08:35.national curriculum in secondary schools. Something that already
:08:35. > :08:38.happens in academies. Andrew. Thanks. We're joined to discuss the
:08:38. > :08:43.plans by Conservative MP Liz Truss. And the shadow schools minister
:08:43. > :08:48.Kevin Brennan. Welcome. Why don't we start with a short opening
:08:48. > :08:53.statements. What is the case for this reform? Britain is
:08:53. > :08:58.underperforming, our international competitors, we are 28th in the
:08:58. > :09:03.world, 16th for science. It's not good enough. We have been overtaken
:09:03. > :09:07.by Germany. The Asian countries are racing ahead, Canada is doing very
:09:07. > :09:12.well and unfortunately, although we have seen the great inflation in
:09:12. > :09:14.schools, the real results are not better as shown by the
:09:14. > :09:19.international comparisons. The exam boards are competing with each
:09:19. > :09:22.other to make the exams easier, to get schools to take them, and we
:09:22. > :09:27.have seen the expose by the Telegraph this year showing it's
:09:27. > :09:32.going on so we need radical change. Will Labour oppose these reforms
:09:32. > :09:39.and why? If as reported in today's Daily Mail and we are returning
:09:39. > :09:44.back to O-levels and CSC's, yes, we would, because we fear it will
:09:45. > :09:49.close of opportunities for young people and Ken Baker this morning
:09:49. > :09:55.described by CSCs as a worthless piece of paper, as they were. I
:09:55. > :09:59.taught them. It was a change brought in by Mrs Thatcher for a
:09:59. > :10:04.reason, to make sure opportunities were not closed off to children at
:10:04. > :10:11.the age of 14. At the moment, 40% of students are not getting five
:10:11. > :10:16.good grades at GCSEs. They're getting grade which are not well
:10:16. > :10:19.regarded by employers. What we need to do, we're not talking about
:10:19. > :10:24.returning to that system but what we are saying, in top-performing
:10:24. > :10:28.countries, 80% of students are getting good quality qualifications
:10:28. > :10:32.at 16. Those who are not able to reach those standards, 20%, should
:10:32. > :10:36.be able to show what they can do in terms of mastering basic
:10:36. > :10:42.mathematics and English. They can't do that in the current GCSE
:10:42. > :10:46.structure. We are moving to a two- tier system, aren't we? There will
:10:46. > :10:50.be two sorts of qualifications and one of them inevitably would be
:10:50. > :10:56.seen as one for the poor. We have a two-tier system at the moment, 40%
:10:56. > :10:58.of students not getting good grades at GCSE is and who are bringing
:10:58. > :11:03.qualifications that employers don't take seriously and are having to
:11:03. > :11:08.retrain people to do. I think it's better to say... They are being
:11:08. > :11:15.sifted out by schools at the age of 14. Are they are told that they
:11:15. > :11:22.have to go for an inferior qualification. I'm afraid that is
:11:22. > :11:29.what will happen. I will come back. We have got plenty of time. Your
:11:29. > :11:33.party had 18 years. Yours had 12 years. 13 years. Between you, that
:11:33. > :11:37.is three scholastic generations. Three generations of children going
:11:37. > :11:42.through school. After 11 years of full-time, free compulsory
:11:42. > :11:48.education in this country, half the children, 48% who take a GCSE this
:11:48. > :11:52.summer, will not get a grade above a C grade. 42% of the employers,
:11:53. > :11:58.public and private sector, are people who come out of school and
:11:58. > :12:03.have to give them remedial training, teach them to read. You are
:12:03. > :12:09.squabbling now. What the average kid and empire once, just teach
:12:09. > :12:14.them to read, write and count. -- employee wants. This constant
:12:14. > :12:19.social streaming concept. You have got to teach them to read.
:12:19. > :12:23.completely agree that we didn't do enough when we were in government.
:12:23. > :12:27.Were you wrong to introduce the GCSEs? Margaret Thatcher did it.
:12:27. > :12:33.The A-level system was not right because not enough people were
:12:33. > :12:38.getting good quality occasions. were you wrong? Answer yes or no.
:12:38. > :12:46.It isn't right. It must have been on otherwise you would not be
:12:46. > :12:49.making these changes. It's IBS on know. The Tory high command is not
:12:49. > :12:54.going to hang you from Westminster Bridge! Just answer truthfully, yes
:12:54. > :13:01.or no. They were better than what went before but not as good as what
:13:01. > :13:06.we could have now. No one is holding you accountable. I did a
:13:06. > :13:11.GCSE in media studies myself, Andrew, so I'm well aware. Confess
:13:11. > :13:15.and be honest. Was it wrong to do it? They were an improvement but
:13:15. > :13:21.not enough of an improvement. there's an improvement, why are you
:13:21. > :13:25.going back to the way it was? want to say why it will be
:13:25. > :13:30.different. What we are envisaging his students will study in the same
:13:30. > :13:38.classes but when they get to 16 there will be a question about, are
:13:38. > :13:43.they up to doing the rigorous GCSEs or do they sit... So they sit at
:13:43. > :13:48.the same classroom but do it to different qualifications? Excuse me.
:13:48. > :13:54.You've had a good go, even they didn't answer my question. How can
:13:54. > :13:58.this country hope to compete with Germany or China or Singapore? One
:13:58. > :14:04.of the questions in the GCSE science paper is, do you use a
:14:04. > :14:10.microscope or a telescope to look at the moon? If you ask somebody
:14:10. > :14:15.that, you would think you were Jimmy Carr having a laugh. There is
:14:15. > :14:20.a good piece in today's Financial Times a dressing that very question.
:14:20. > :14:25.I haven't read it. It points out that the GCSE is available to
:14:25. > :14:33.children at every level and that may sound like an extremely simple
:14:33. > :14:37.question. It is, but it's not testing the ability of the pupils
:14:37. > :14:42.who are being stretched. What is the answer? Do you think Chinese
:14:42. > :14:50.children are being asked that question? They do get a paper like
:14:50. > :14:57.that. Do you think a Chinese kid is being asked that in a serious
:14:57. > :15:00.science exam in the Shanghai? idea. The answer is no. It is an
:15:00. > :15:06.all ability paper. If you're going to put in some children in a small
:15:06. > :15:10.number, clearly questions of that kind will be on it. It shows we
:15:10. > :15:13.have a two-tier system at the moment. Students are being asked
:15:14. > :15:20.low-grade questions at the moment. It's better to get basic English
:15:20. > :15:23.and maths in place. Back in the distant past, when the education
:15:23. > :15:27.system was ruined through the introduction of comprehensive
:15:28. > :15:36.schools, instead of saying it let's make the bits that don't work well,
:15:36. > :15:42.secondary modern, and CSC's, instead of saying that letters make
:15:42. > :15:45.that better, create more vocational skills and training, and Taylor
:15:45. > :15:55.something to people whose academic abilities is not so good, instead
:15:55. > :16:04.
:16:04. > :16:09.of that, both of you in different Will it actually raise standards?
:16:09. > :16:17.If the problem is you were going to have a mediocre set of results, it
:16:17. > :16:23.will not raise standards, will it? We're asking schools to have higher
:16:23. > :16:31.aspirations. Students in all these other countries - 80% or 90% are
:16:31. > :16:37.doing high quality academic qualifications until they are 16.
:16:37. > :16:43.Why did you leave out then? That is top of the table. I do not think we
:16:43. > :16:48.can have a system that only educates a minority of people.
:16:48. > :16:53.Academic education is becoming more and more important. Mathematics
:16:53. > :17:03.commands highest earnings premium in the workplace. He cannot write a
:17:03. > :17:08.
:17:08. > :17:12.whole bunch of students off. Half of students cannot read? Actually
:17:12. > :17:16.those standards have improved. I know you say about the return back
:17:17. > :17:22.to the system of having selection at 11, which is presumably what you
:17:22. > :17:28.favour in terms of grammar school as and secondary moderns. The vast
:17:28. > :17:32.majority of such -- children, literacy was terrible. It is wrong
:17:32. > :17:38.to say that half the children cannot read. It is wrong to say
:17:38. > :17:48.they cannot read at 16 - half the children. Why is it Beth half of
:17:48. > :17:50.
:17:50. > :17:56.the Labour MPs actually supported our policy? -- that. We are out of
:17:56. > :18:00.time. A great debate. I am sure we will continue it. If you had
:18:00. > :18:06.surgery or an appointment planned with your consultant, chances are
:18:06. > :18:12.you're not be seeing a doctor because of industrial action over
:18:12. > :18:18.changes to pensions. We will bring to representatives of both sides of
:18:18. > :18:23.the dispute to argue their cases. The public finances we inherited
:18:24. > :18:28.were in a terrible situation. There was a necessity to rebalance public
:18:28. > :18:35.service workers' contributions to their pensions with taxpayers'
:18:35. > :18:44.subsidies. Instead of, for example, �4 out of �5 being contributed,
:18:44. > :18:50.there has been a shift. I wanted it still to be a really good pension
:18:50. > :18:54.scheme. When you look at it, for a junior doctor starting out, over
:18:54. > :19:04.their working lifetime, if the works through G68, some he is
:19:04. > :19:11.starting out at 2015 and 24, they will be able to have a pension -- a
:19:11. > :19:20.large pension. All the doctors will get the pension they expected when
:19:21. > :19:27.it spent -- expected. Starting with you, do you feel there is little
:19:27. > :19:34.sympathy for you and the strike? Some of the headlines in the papers
:19:34. > :19:40.saying, the strike will confirm a growing perception that the
:19:40. > :19:45.profession is fuelled by greed. This is the first time in nearly 40
:19:45. > :19:49.years that doctors have taken any sort of action. The public have to
:19:49. > :19:52.ask what has driven them to this and what meant that 70% of them
:19:52. > :20:00.said they wanted to take action because of the fact the Government
:20:00. > :20:05.had come back on the 2008 pension scheme. Let's have a look at
:20:05. > :20:12.doctors and GPs. What you say to reports that at supporters also
:20:12. > :20:16.waning? There were poles by GPs saying that 281 GP centres, 22%
:20:16. > :20:20.confirmed there would not be taking part. Doctors have taken this
:20:20. > :20:25.decision very reluctant they. I can fully understand and sympathise
:20:25. > :20:29.with doctors who do not want to take this dispute out on patients.
:20:29. > :20:39.That is why we have tried to minimise the impact on patients.
:20:39. > :20:41.
:20:41. > :20:46.All doctors are treating emergency cases. I'm not out to maximise the
:20:46. > :20:52.adverse reaction on the public. We are talking but highlighting the
:20:52. > :20:56.problem and resolving the issue. What do you hope to achieve?
:20:56. > :21:00.Ministers could not have been clearer. They said the action
:21:00. > :21:05.stands no chance to talk in changing government policy. One way
:21:05. > :21:11.or another, one has to try to resolve these. There are be far
:21:11. > :21:17.better to resolve but sooner rather to talk, sit down and tried to find
:21:17. > :21:24.a way out of the problem. Why could do not have stop this happening?
:21:24. > :21:29.believe the deal being put forward is fair. You'll notice the nurses
:21:29. > :21:35.and Unison members are not striking today. Department of Health
:21:35. > :21:37.officials have had 23 meetings with the BMA to discuss this. It is
:21:37. > :21:43.unfortunate that chair of the pension committee did not turn up
:21:43. > :21:49.to the meetings. Hamish has had five meetings with the Secretary of
:21:49. > :21:53.State. Why have you not worked this out? Do not so we have not engage
:21:53. > :21:57.properly in negotiation. The head of our pensions department has been
:21:57. > :22:02.at every single meeting - the equivalent of every other union
:22:02. > :22:08.personnel was there as well. The idea we have not been committed to
:22:08. > :22:14.the discussions is untrue. Are you saying you will not negotiate?
:22:14. > :22:22.have come up with a fair deal. Ind has been accepted by the nurses'
:22:22. > :22:27.and Unison. -- it has been. If you joined the pension scheme in 2015,
:22:27. > :22:35.if you retire at 65, you will get a pension of �53,000. If you retire
:22:35. > :22:39.later, at 68, you will receive �68,000 a year pension, which is a
:22:39. > :22:45.pot of �1.5 million from the private sector. Why is that not
:22:45. > :22:50.acceptable? We went into more the issues about pensions in 2008. We
:22:50. > :22:54.had a deal where doctors would work longer, pay more and, where any
:22:54. > :22:59.future impact on the pension system would be taken by the employees and
:22:59. > :23:05.not by the Government. People live longer and the cost of pensions go
:23:05. > :23:14.up. That would be paid for by the employees and not the Government.
:23:14. > :23:19.It is wrong to compare it with another pot. At the moment, that is
:23:19. > :23:28.supplied �2 billion a year surplus to the Treasury. You have run a
:23:28. > :23:33.Tarmac deal? No, we have not. -- gone back on that deal? Very few
:23:33. > :23:38.have joined that scheme. That scheme renegotiated, Winnie was
:23:38. > :23:42.less good than the current scheme that doctors had. -- we knew. We
:23:42. > :23:50.agreed to it in the interest of the public. It is not surprising that
:23:50. > :23:55.few doctors joined bad. What you are now offering was far less good.
:23:55. > :24:01.The 2008 scheme which was put together did not take into account
:24:01. > :24:05.two key factors - one the economic situation and the cost to the
:24:05. > :24:11.country. You are saying you a change it because of the economic
:24:11. > :24:21.situation. Also because of changes in the lifespan of people. If you
:24:21. > :24:24.
:24:24. > :24:31.retire at 60, it could be 34 years. Amanda working on the line a Jaguar
:24:31. > :24:37.has jumped through every hoop to keep in work. -- a man. Rarely have
:24:37. > :24:43.I ever sat in a television studio unwashed a turkey voting for
:24:43. > :24:48.Christmas. -- and watched. On behalf of that kite in Birmingham,
:24:48. > :24:55.making motor cars, you have just wash -- lost the street-cred your
:24:55. > :25:03.profession deserves. I am sorry you think that is the case. Doctors are
:25:03. > :25:08.now in the 30th of a pay freeze. -- third year. Doctors have agreed to
:25:08. > :25:13.pay more. Lord Hutton said, this is not the race. Public sector
:25:13. > :25:17.pensions are not gold-plated. It has always been part of working in
:25:17. > :25:22.the public sector that you had a degree of job security and
:25:22. > :25:27.reasonable pensions. Now doctors are having to pay almost twice as
:25:27. > :25:32.much as equivalents in the Civil Service. That cannot be fair.
:25:32. > :25:38.should doctors' pay much more for their pensions and well-paid civil
:25:38. > :25:45.servants and MPs? First of all, it is wrong to just isolate one aspect
:25:45. > :25:55.of the whole pension package. should they pay much more? 14.5%
:25:55. > :25:55.
:25:56. > :26:00.Against 9%. Why is it so different? You are wrong! 14.5% after tax
:26:00. > :26:09.relief, that is 8.7%. If you are talking about MPs, they are
:26:09. > :26:13.currently paying 13.5% for their pensions. It rose from 11.25 %.
:26:13. > :26:23.That is bought eight 20th accrual. Matters in half the time the
:26:23. > :26:30.doctors would take. -- that is in half the time. On the broad., let's
:26:30. > :26:39.not get bogged down into much detail in terms of figures. -- on
:26:39. > :26:45.the broad point. Is it fair? Senior civil servants are earning, on
:26:45. > :26:50.average, �78,000 a year. Consultants are earning �116,500.
:26:50. > :26:57.The average pension for all civil servants, including senior, middle
:26:57. > :27:06.and junior, is about �31,000 the year. The average in the NHS scheme
:27:06. > :27:16.is �7,000. The doctors won �53,000, rising to 68 as an pounds. -- the
:27:16. > :27:20.
:27:20. > :27:25.doctors want. -- the doctors want �53,000 rising to �68,000. Is it
:27:25. > :27:31.clever to cut funding for the NHS, introduce competition and carry out
:27:31. > :27:35.the biggest reorganisation of the NHS, impose a pay freeze and
:27:36. > :27:43.changed doctors pensions at the same time? BhS is a protected
:27:43. > :27:48.budget. They are having a modest real terms increase. -- the NHS is
:27:48. > :27:54.a protected budget. This was not going to get the doctors on side.
:27:54. > :28:00.It was difficult to get doctors on side at times at all. The NHS needs
:28:00. > :28:04.to continue to evolve. We cannot stand still. You are looking greedy
:28:04. > :28:13.and self-interested. You have not gone strike that money being sent
:28:13. > :28:17.for the NHS. You ask about your pensions. You know as well as I can,
:28:17. > :28:24.industrial law is you cannot go on strike for something like that -
:28:24. > :28:31.only for a contractual thing. could make a bigger deal upper tip.
:28:31. > :28:36.The beer maybe -- made a big deal about the changes. We were the
:28:36. > :28:42.first body to talk about this. We both have scars on our back to
:28:42. > :28:47.prove it. When teachers started to strike in the early 80s, they lost
:28:47. > :28:53.the link of trust between society and them. You're just about to go
:28:53. > :28:58.down the same path and that is a tragedy. Thank you both very much.
:28:58. > :29:05.Contrary to what Digby was saying, if any techies are watching this
:29:05. > :29:12.programme, I would like to reassure you, Christmas is a long way off! -
:29:12. > :29:21.- techies. It has been veiled Jimmy Carr paid in cash for his �8.5
:29:21. > :29:25.million house. -- it has been revealed that Jimmy Carr. I think
:29:25. > :29:35.we are in the wrong business the stuff we need to be comedians. Got
:29:35. > :29:38.Until very recently it would have been unthinkable. But this
:29:38. > :29:41.afternoon Aung Sang Sui Kyi, leader of Burma's Opposition and a woman
:29:41. > :29:44.who endured house arrest at the hands of her country's military
:29:44. > :29:49.junta for 15 years, will address both Houses of Parliament. She's
:29:49. > :29:52.only the second woman after the Queen to do so. In a moment, we'll
:29:52. > :29:54.talk to the Foreign Office minister Jeremy Browne about the trip and
:29:54. > :29:59.Britain's invitation to the President of Burma to visit the UK
:29:59. > :30:02.later in the year. But first let's go over to Adam Fleming who's
:30:02. > :30:05.outside the Houses of Parliament with two women whose lives have
:30:05. > :30:10.been touched by Aung San Suu Kyi and her campaign.
:30:10. > :30:14.Good afternoon. A really historic day in the Commons today. They just
:30:14. > :30:18.started cutting the grass on College Green but to discuss
:30:18. > :30:22.today's events we are joined by boot to women who have been
:30:22. > :30:27.affected by Aung San Suu Kyi. A woman who wrote a film about the
:30:27. > :30:30.Burmese opposition leader. And a woman who is from the Burma
:30:30. > :30:37.campaigner UK. Rebecca, this would be a great climax for your thumb,
:30:37. > :30:41.wouldn't it? Yes, when I voted for years ago, Aung San Suu Kyi had
:30:41. > :30:45.been under house arrest for over 20 years and the film was a
:30:45. > :30:49.campaigning film to campaign for her release so little did we know,
:30:49. > :30:55.history would move so quickly. does this fit into the story of her
:30:55. > :30:59.life? Today is a wonderful day. She's on a five-country tour of
:30:59. > :31:02.Europe and I think that in addressing both houses of
:31:02. > :31:08.parliament today, which is an honour accorded to usually only
:31:08. > :31:15.heads of state, I think the West are sending a clear signal to the
:31:15. > :31:21.military of Aung San Suu Kyi, but she has the right for leader, and
:31:21. > :31:25.she has who we wanted a business with. She won a landslide election
:31:25. > :31:32.victory in the 1991 and it will mean she will return to Burma at
:31:32. > :31:37.the end of this week with increased political clout. What is it like
:31:37. > :31:45.knowing you are going to be watching her? It is wonderful. Very
:31:45. > :31:54.inspiring and encouraging. To see Aung San Suu Kyi travelling outside
:31:54. > :31:59.Burma. She has the confidence she will be allowed back in Burma. Many
:31:59. > :32:03.others have been campaigning for her release. It is just very
:32:03. > :32:08.helpful and encouraging to see this, but I think the most important
:32:08. > :32:13.thing for us to see is what she has to say. The political messages she
:32:13. > :32:19.has been delivering throughout her trip in Europe is very good and
:32:19. > :32:24.very inspiring. There are still hundreds of political prisoners in
:32:24. > :32:29.Burma. The international committees, governments, have to do something
:32:29. > :32:34.about it for their release and, at the same time, for humanitarian aid
:32:35. > :32:39.to be increased in at Burma, especially for Refugees, to have a
:32:39. > :32:45.genuine peace in ethnic areas. The International Committee should pay
:32:45. > :32:49.attention. Are you worried that if people see Aung San Suu Kyi touring
:32:49. > :32:54.around Europe, they will think everything is fine now? Some people
:32:54. > :32:58.who don't know much about Burma, of course they might think that the
:32:58. > :33:05.problems are solved now but Aung San Suu Kyi makes it very clear
:33:05. > :33:09.that we still have a long way to go in Burma and the international
:33:09. > :33:18.community needs to support the people in Burma. Although the
:33:18. > :33:23.Government in Burma is opening up some kind of political phrases by
:33:23. > :33:26.stabilising problems in Burma... It's a problem for the
:33:26. > :33:30.international committee to support our community and the people in a
:33:30. > :33:35.Burma to have genuine peace. what about the British Government's
:33:35. > :33:39.invite to the President? It's far too soon. The British Government
:33:39. > :33:44.has sent bench marks against the Government in Burma and none of
:33:44. > :33:49.those benchmarks have been met. Thank you both for joining us. We
:33:49. > :33:56.have run out of time. The speech starts at 3pm and then there is a
:33:56. > :34:02.reception later on. Thank you, Adam. And welcome to
:34:02. > :34:07.viewers in Scotland. We're discussing Aung San Suu Kyi's visit
:34:07. > :34:11.to Britain. Her speech to the joint session of Parliament. And we're
:34:11. > :34:16.joined by Jeremy Browne, Foreign Office Minister. Are we in danger
:34:16. > :34:21.of thinking that the situation has been resolved in Burma now? Yes,
:34:21. > :34:26.because it has not been resolved but has shifted significantly. The
:34:26. > :34:30.balance to have to strike in the play Missy is to recognise change
:34:30. > :34:35.when you see it and reward it but not anticipate future change before
:34:35. > :34:40.it has happened. We are trying to get that balance right, encourage
:34:40. > :34:48.progress in Burma. This is a sick of a good part, this week, but we
:34:48. > :34:53.are not being blinded by it -- a significant part. That woman thinks
:34:53. > :34:58.it's too soon to invite the President of this country. He was a
:34:58. > :35:04.former general. He leads a military-backed party. Still a
:35:04. > :35:07.military regime. She thinks it's too soon. That could then it is
:35:07. > :35:14.sometimes made that in trying to reward progress and show good faith
:35:14. > :35:20.-- criticism -- in terms of my decisions going on in Burma with
:35:20. > :35:23.the people, we over reach ourselves. I don't accept that. I think we are
:35:24. > :35:27.getting the balance right. Aung San Suu Kyi is in favour of telling
:35:27. > :35:31.that level of engagement and the Prime Minister and Foreign
:35:31. > :35:34.Secretary have been in Burma this year, and as well as meeting her
:35:34. > :35:39.they had engaged with the Burmese authorities and the President as
:35:39. > :35:47.well. We have to manage that relationship as a whole, and him
:35:47. > :35:53.coming, I hope, will enable us to bring about reform in Burma. Have
:35:53. > :35:59.we normalised relations with Burma? We won't sell them arms, but have
:35:59. > :36:05.we returned to normality? Ride through, we had an embassy there. -
:36:05. > :36:10.- a right through. I look forward to being at posted there! What poor
:36:10. > :36:15.man had descended there! It's not normally the longest queue for that
:36:15. > :36:18.job. It's a politically interesting job when you arrive at. The British
:36:18. > :36:22.ambassador is back here for the Aung San Suu Kyi visit and is
:36:22. > :36:27.playing a central role in that. We have suspended EU sanctions and
:36:27. > :36:31.consciously not scrap them. They are in suspension and that was a
:36:31. > :36:36.conscious decision led by David Cameron and the British Government
:36:36. > :36:41.that we would have that hanging over them but if there was a
:36:41. > :36:47.demonstration of progress, the rewards follow, so there is a bit
:36:47. > :36:56.of coaxing. Over 400 political prisoners, still. Lots have been
:36:56. > :37:02.released. Amnesty and others had a campaign where you had people's
:37:02. > :37:06.names on your hands and campaigned for them. Those had been released
:37:06. > :37:08.so there has been great progress. I had a meeting with Aung San Suu Kyi
:37:08. > :37:15.and of Foreign Secretary this morning and she said she thought
:37:15. > :37:17.there was about 271 remaining political prisoners but you can get
:37:18. > :37:22.the ones who are most obviously political prisoners, they have been
:37:22. > :37:27.released. It's what you classified as a political prisoner because
:37:27. > :37:33.some of them, it may be described like that, may also be imprisoned
:37:33. > :37:40.for violent acts, for example. She said the 271 was not an absolute
:37:40. > :37:45.figure and there could be an error. A we are the biggest donor.
:37:45. > :37:50.gives us some substantial leverage. Although William Hague was the
:37:50. > :37:55.first British Foreign Secretary since the 1950s to visit Burma, and
:37:55. > :38:03.Richards had previously been. There's all kinds of difficulties
:38:03. > :38:10.in Burma. A lot of internal unrest. We are trying to help in that
:38:10. > :38:20.regard and I hope that that gives us a bigger... When I was in Delhi,
:38:20. > :38:20.
:38:20. > :38:25.as a minister, I said when Burma finally opens up to the world, the
:38:25. > :38:30.real end during way of keeping reform in their face will be
:38:30. > :38:34.through trade. It will be through clean water, health care, education
:38:34. > :38:40.and all that comes from wealth created by people trading and
:38:40. > :38:45.investing. Am very supportive of what you're doing. I think the way
:38:45. > :38:49.you have put it is spot-on. When the cameras have gone home and Aung
:38:50. > :38:54.San Suu Kyi has gone home, and it's not flavour of the month any more,
:38:54. > :39:01.the Burmese have got to understand democracy pays and that by a job,
:39:01. > :39:07.healthcare, education. I strongly agree. What do we want to trade
:39:07. > :39:10.with them? There's a lot of opportunities. Let me help you.
:39:10. > :39:17.They have a lot of natural resources. The Chinese and the
:39:17. > :39:23.Indians are in their though, aren't they? I mean the support services,
:39:23. > :39:27.gas and oil fields. Really good people who can go in there. Also
:39:27. > :39:35.they need capacity, how to deliver and we are quite good at that,
:39:36. > :39:42.education and training. I want to move on. Will there be Lib Dem
:39:42. > :39:46.unrest at these education reforms? I haven't seen the details of the
:39:46. > :39:51.reforms but read some newspaper reports. I think what will be the
:39:51. > :39:56.guiding principle for the rank and file Lib Dems is to have a system
:39:56. > :40:01.where everybody is able to realise their potential. You don't have a
:40:01. > :40:06.glass ceilings put in at different layers. It's a return to a two-tier
:40:06. > :40:10.system. I think there has been some genuine concern, not only on the
:40:10. > :40:15.Conservative benches, that we need to make sure that different exam
:40:15. > :40:21.boards are not trying to compete with each other to make the system
:40:21. > :40:26.easier. Will your party be happy with a two-tier system? English and
:40:26. > :40:32.maths, we need to keep the rigour to be internationally competitive.
:40:32. > :40:40.Will you be happy with a two-tier system, a return to O-levels and a
:40:40. > :40:49.modern version of A C S E? instincts are obviously people will
:40:49. > :40:55.get the top grades and people will get, but we want to try and keep
:40:55. > :41:01.that under one umbrella bar than having separate strains. The OK. We
:41:01. > :41:10.have done Education and Burma. Versatile today. Now the big issue.
:41:10. > :41:16.England are playing Kiev on Sunday. I was unfairly treated earlier this
:41:16. > :41:20.week on the subject for the did you see that? I apologise. I have no
:41:20. > :41:24.idea what you're talking about. said England had never reached a
:41:24. > :41:27.final of the tournament held outside England. And this was
:41:27. > :41:35.reported as me predicting that England would not reach the final.
:41:35. > :41:39.I didn't do that at all. Can I now get on with a questions? No
:41:39. > :41:47.minister is going to go to the match in Kiev, in the Ukraine,
:41:47. > :41:53.correct? The quarter-final. Yes. The semi-final, if we get through,
:41:53. > :42:03.it's in Poland. So you can go there. What happens of England makes the
:42:03. > :42:04.
:42:04. > :42:07.final in the Ukraine? I think we are reserving our position. Why?
:42:07. > :42:16.I'm definitely not going because I will be on the other side of the
:42:16. > :42:23.world. If it were you? The position, it has been, and answering the
:42:23. > :42:27.question, I'm not going. Would you go? The ministers in general?
:42:27. > :42:33.they go to the final if we make it to the final? It remains under
:42:33. > :42:35.review but I wouldn't have an assumption that they will do.
:42:35. > :42:40.if it's right to boycott the Ukraine for the reasons you have
:42:40. > :42:45.given, surely it doesn't matter whether it is the tiddlywinks
:42:45. > :42:50.championship or the finals of the year 2012? If you want to make an
:42:50. > :42:57.effective boycott, the final is the place to do it. Not going to a
:42:57. > :43:03.quarter-final,, a final, it consistently es or no. The position
:43:03. > :43:06.is that there is widespread feeling, shared by the British Government
:43:06. > :43:12.that they have been a serious errors of concern in the Ukraine
:43:12. > :43:16.and you want to demonstrate. The fact it's been discussed so widely
:43:16. > :43:20.in a way, as shown that we have got across that message very powerfully
:43:20. > :43:25.but there are people who say that it is appropriate, especially if
:43:25. > :43:29.you go to the later end of the competition, to have that type of
:43:29. > :43:32.representation. We will keep it under review but it wouldn't hold
:43:32. > :43:37.any great prospect that we would attend because of those concerns
:43:37. > :43:42.about human rights. You could make it that if you go to the final, you
:43:42. > :43:47.then have to go and be ambassador in North Korea as a penalty?
:43:47. > :43:53.that why you're not going? Are they hosting any tournaments any time
:43:53. > :43:57.soon? They did well in a 1966 World Cup. Their record since then...
:43:57. > :44:01.but then they could afford to eat. They are now richer than South
:44:01. > :44:07.Korea, though. An amazing transformation in that type of the
:44:07. > :44:11.world. Thank you very much. That's assuming England get to the final.
:44:11. > :44:13.What do you think? I would ask you! It's already been a summer to
:44:13. > :44:16.remember with Diamond Jubilees and the Olympics, not to mention
:44:16. > :44:19.England's imminent triumph in the Euros. The eyes of the world will
:44:19. > :44:22.be on Britain. So what better opportunity for putting our goods
:44:22. > :44:24.and services in the shop window? But are government and business
:44:24. > :44:27.really capitalising on it? And are they doing enough to promote
:44:27. > :44:37.British trade with the emerging economic superpowers of Brazil,
:44:37. > :44:44.
:44:44. > :44:49.Russia, India and China? We sent We might not be able to guarantee
:44:49. > :44:57.the weather but this summer will be Britain a past of his chance to
:44:57. > :45:02.shine on the world's stage. We have had the Diamond Jubilee. --
:45:02. > :45:06.Britain's prime -- chance. Will any of this actually make a difference
:45:06. > :45:13.to the image of Britain in the world? Will it help to put our
:45:13. > :45:19.exports in the shop window? In the end, have you got the products?
:45:19. > :45:25.Have you got the people? Is the Government backing you? Can you get
:45:25. > :45:30.export and financial support? Too many answers remain, not quite, not
:45:30. > :45:38.sure. That is not the view from the coalition front bench. British
:45:38. > :45:43.exports to Brazil going at 37%. British exports to China going at
:45:43. > :45:46.61%. British exports to India going up 73%. That is because the British
:45:46. > :45:53.government is out there, championing British business, which
:45:53. > :46:00.the other side neglected to do. Brazil Russia India and China are
:46:00. > :46:07.the brick Nations. -- brake nations. These statistics do not tell the
:46:07. > :46:14.holster talk -- story. In the UK club bottom of the leak of EU
:46:14. > :46:21.nations when it comes to sending goods to emerging markets. -- the
:46:21. > :46:25.UK is bottom of the leak. Russia is a very good example of exporting
:46:25. > :46:31.its image. We're in the post- industrial age where Britain does
:46:31. > :46:37.not produce as much as it did in the 19th century. Russians aspired
:46:37. > :46:45.to everything, what is British and what is English. What open stores
:46:45. > :46:50.in Brazil? In Brazil, we are known for football. It has a Briton who
:46:50. > :46:55.took the first football in the 18 90s. We are known in different
:46:55. > :47:00.places for different things. We could be promoting our message even
:47:00. > :47:07.more. That is what is going to sell goods and services. Why aren't we
:47:07. > :47:12.selling more? They do not cut as any slack. We think the Indians are
:47:12. > :47:18.our friends. Belgian exports more to India than we do. Unless we have
:47:18. > :47:24.the products, the personnel, we have to get up and go guys, but
:47:24. > :47:30.above all we have a government that believes in helping companies
:47:30. > :47:34.export. Ministers say they believe that there is no bang behind their
:47:34. > :47:39.words. When I was in Brazil receiving British business figures,
:47:39. > :47:44.there were two things they always said. They had no idea Brazil was
:47:44. > :47:52.like it was. The second was that they will be back. Sadly, quite a
:47:52. > :47:59.few were impressed but never came back. Heritage is one of Britain's
:47:59. > :48:05.u s ps. That will determine whether our trade is left in the past. --
:48:05. > :48:10.unique selling points. Let's start with the image of Britain abroad.
:48:10. > :48:20.How are reviewed on the trading saying? I was an international
:48:20. > :48:21.
:48:21. > :48:26.corporate finance a liar. It has -- lawyer. I do not think it has
:48:26. > :48:30.changed. We are seen as slow but we are trusted. More than the
:48:30. > :48:36.Americans and the French. More than the Germans and Japanese. We're a
:48:36. > :48:42.trusted trading partner. People believe Bass and like to associate
:48:42. > :48:47.with our values. -- belief asked. When you buy something for me by
:48:47. > :48:51.because you feel good about it all. As emerging markets get richer,
:48:51. > :49:01.middle classes have disposable income. What do they want to show
:49:01. > :49:04.
:49:04. > :49:08.off? And services. They want to buy a Mini. They want a Jaguar Land
:49:08. > :49:13.Rover. They want a Vodafone made in Newbury. They want to send their
:49:13. > :49:20.kids to a British university. That is buying into a feeling of
:49:20. > :49:27.Britishness. In the last 30 years, nothing has changed. Middle classes
:49:27. > :49:36.are growing and expanding in the -- in those countries. We make half of
:49:36. > :49:43.every Airbus that is ever flown. A lot take off from Toulouse. It is
:49:43. > :49:52.booked as the French export. Reebok kit as an export to France. We make
:49:52. > :49:57.half of it. -- week book it. They book a whole thing. France sell a
:49:58. > :50:03.lot more to India and China. That happens a lot. Secondly, an awful
:50:03. > :50:07.lot of what we do it in emerging markets, we have come in from other
:50:07. > :50:14.ways. Higher education is a fabulous export in this country. It
:50:14. > :50:24.is them coming to us. Services is another one. On a monorail in Dubai,
:50:24. > :50:28.
:50:29. > :50:38.we ran it. It is not a sensible sale. -- Serco run it. We have a
:50:39. > :50:42.
:50:42. > :50:49.Secretary of State who does not use British goods. They do not get it.
:50:49. > :50:56.I came up against this all the time as Trade Minister. It is open
:50:56. > :51:02.market. I do not want protectionism. What I want is in the DNA of people.
:51:02. > :51:09.It is not protectionist. I would love Vince Cable to get in every
:51:09. > :51:15.day the Toyota, Nissan or Honda made in Britain. The British
:51:15. > :51:20.business minister gets into a Japanese car made in Japan? Because
:51:20. > :51:28.they cannot understand why it matters. When I was the minister,
:51:28. > :51:35.the first thing that happened Dom we made Nissan in Sunderland.
:51:35. > :51:39.the first thing that happened at... I am saying if you put him in here
:51:39. > :51:49.and asked if he was patriotic, he would say, of course I am. When I
:51:49. > :51:52.
:51:52. > :51:55.got there, they said, it is your car. They do not get it. As you can
:51:55. > :52:00.imagine, we're getting very excited at the Daily Politics about
:52:00. > :52:08.everything going on in Europe. Last minute transfer of the Greek right
:52:08. > :52:11.wing, Germany giving nothing away. -- and plucky England planning
:52:12. > :52:18.their own furrow and just about staying in the game. I'm not
:52:18. > :52:23.talking about the euro crisis, I am talking about Euro 2012. I am told
:52:23. > :52:33.it is a football tournament. Who will win? Can Greece beat back the
:52:33. > :52:39.
:52:39. > :52:44.Germans? Who better to ask than football-mad MPs? Occasionally talk
:52:44. > :52:48.does slip towards Euro 2012. We are interested in both. There is a
:52:48. > :52:55.danger that both will end in tears. Expectations are raised. Things
:52:55. > :53:02.seem to be on the way up and dashed at the last moment. I think
:53:02. > :53:06.everybody wants Greece to win. I am told Greece will only play if they
:53:06. > :53:11.played against the German reserves. I would like Greece to win but I
:53:11. > :53:19.expect Germany will win. If they win and we when we will play them.
:53:19. > :53:22.Maybe they should decide the bail out conditions. I would like to
:53:22. > :53:27.think they would drop out of the euro's first but I have a sneaking
:53:27. > :53:33.suspicion that, if Italy do well, it will be a winning goal by Mario
:53:33. > :53:40.Balatelli. Days are numbered to just a couple. Let's get behind the
:53:40. > :53:50.lads. It is looking good. By God, the country needs a left! It is
:53:50. > :53:50.
:53:50. > :53:55.quite clear it will be the euro, any time soon. No is the straight
:53:55. > :54:00.answer. I think we have done pretty well so far. We might beat Italy
:54:00. > :54:05.but I think we will probably get knocked out by the Germans. First
:54:05. > :54:09.of all we are unlucky side. I think we will be the only financially
:54:09. > :54:16.sound country come the final and we will win because of that. They can
:54:16. > :54:20.but we must not get carried away. We will take each game as it comes.
:54:20. > :54:30.They have benefited from the lack of hype and the rest of it. They
:54:30. > :54:31.
:54:31. > :54:41.can go all the way. Can England win? If they do, or will it mean a
:54:41. > :54:41.
:54:41. > :54:45.feel-good factor and sweep the nation? Welcome to both of you.
:54:45. > :54:51.What do you think? I think it has been a good performance, better
:54:51. > :54:53.than expected so far. Will have to wait and see what happens at the
:54:53. > :54:58.weekend. Better than expected because everyone had low
:54:58. > :55:03.expectations. I have watched these matches. They are not brilliant.
:55:03. > :55:08.They have got through, which is fantastic. Data not shown a great
:55:08. > :55:13.sense of brilliance. We have had better England teams in the past. -
:55:13. > :55:17.- they have not shown. We will will them on to win at the next game on
:55:17. > :55:23.Sunday. What chances to they have of reaching the final? We have to
:55:23. > :55:27.get past Sunday and probably get past the Germans. Let's see what
:55:27. > :55:33.happens. Jeremy Browne asked about the consistency of policy in terms
:55:33. > :55:38.of ministers going to watch matches in the Ukraine. Do you think they
:55:38. > :55:44.should go if England reaches the final? I'm not sure they should go.
:55:44. > :55:49.I take the position that, if you send a minister and they lose, they
:55:49. > :55:55.could Jinks the team. I am the superstitious football fan. Maybe
:55:55. > :56:02.we will just leave it. Next come on to the issue of effect on the
:56:02. > :56:10.country and politics. -- next, to the issue. In terms of political
:56:10. > :56:14.boost, it is hogwash. There is no evidence this has evidence on
:56:14. > :56:19.people's political views. What is more significant is the state of
:56:19. > :56:24.the weather. In the brief summer we had last month, the month before,
:56:24. > :56:29.we had the slight blip in people's economic confidence and in a
:56:29. > :56:34.general attitudes towards life. not football? Not football. What
:56:34. > :56:41.about if they reach the final? With that whip up a bit of national
:56:42. > :56:46.fervour? You can go back to 1966. I cannot remember the time what the
:56:46. > :56:52.national mood was like. Going back and consulting the polling digests,
:56:52. > :56:57.there was no discernible impact, even though we won it in London on
:56:57. > :57:01.up own territory. On the tournament like this, possibly in the World
:57:01. > :57:09.Cup, they might be an impact that last a week or so that nothing more
:57:09. > :57:14.enduring than that. 1966 is a myth. The election took place 17 weeks
:57:15. > :57:23.before the World Cup finals. polling numbers at the time, month-
:57:23. > :57:30.by-month by month... In 1970, Harold Wilson lost unexpectedly --
:57:30. > :57:36.unexpectedly took Ted Heath. We to say there is no correlation between
:57:36. > :57:42.Wilson losing an inspection -- an election he is expected to win and
:57:42. > :57:48.England being lost out? I remember watching the World Cup in 1970. I
:57:48. > :57:51.had to get my grandfather's house because he had the colour
:57:51. > :57:57.television. -- to go to my grandfather's house. I do not think
:57:57. > :58:04.there is the same access to the Games as there is today. I think it
:58:04. > :58:11.is very easy. Do you think the Government might hope for a bit of
:58:11. > :58:17.a lift from the football? I agree with Andrew. Football is the big
:58:17. > :58:22.mass sport for the nation. I do not think a team's result has much to
:58:22. > :58:28.an impact on the political situation. Harold Wilson blamed it
:58:28. > :58:35.on a consignment of two jumbo jets and diamonds into Hatton Garden
:58:35. > :58:41.which changed trade figures. Not football! England any wins the
:58:41. > :58:45.World Cup when Labour was in power. That is his gag. That is
:58:45. > :58:51.irrefutable. Thank you for being a guest of the day. Thank you to all