:00:44. > :00:46.Good morning and welcome to the Tom Daley -- Daily Politics. Can Nick
:00:46. > :00:50.Clegg convince his coalition partners that reforming the House
:00:50. > :00:52.of Lords is a good idea? The Cabinet have heard his proposals
:00:52. > :00:57.this morning and the bill will be published tomorrow. The Government
:00:57. > :01:01.says they will be working to win round potential rebels but will it
:01:01. > :01:05.be enough? The Queen makes history in Northern Ireland. The crowds are
:01:05. > :01:08.waiting for her to arrive on a two day visit, in which she will shake
:01:08. > :01:13.hands with former IRA leader Martin McGuinness. We will talk to
:01:13. > :01:18.politicians in Belfast and London. Can this woman teach Michael Gove a
:01:18. > :01:23.thing or two about improving schools? She has attract publicity
:01:23. > :01:29.in America with her controversial methods. She has even been on the
:01:29. > :01:34.Oprah Winfrey Show. She has closed dozens of schools and fired over
:01:34. > :01:41.1,000 teachers and principles, including the one at her own
:01:41. > :01:46.children's school. All that in the next half an hour, with us as you
:01:46. > :01:49.saw there is Michelle Rhee, she ran the school system in Washington DC
:01:49. > :01:53.and runs an organisation which works to improve schools across the
:01:53. > :01:57.US. Welcome to the programme. First the Oprah Winfrey Show, now the
:01:57. > :02:01.Daily Politics, what more can you ask for? Nothing. Good. What brings
:02:01. > :02:06.you here? Well, I have been interested to see what is happening
:02:06. > :02:09.here in the UK, on education reform. I think the country is heading in
:02:10. > :02:14.the right direction, I know that some of the reforms that are
:02:14. > :02:18.happening are difficult and you know, cause opposition, but I think
:02:18. > :02:22.the secretary Gove is heading in the right direction. Here to learn
:02:22. > :02:27.and share whatever experiences that I had in DC that might be relevant
:02:27. > :02:30.to what is happening. And you met Michael Gove yesterday. Yes.
:02:30. > :02:33.will see that later in the programme. An NHS trust has been
:02:33. > :02:38.warned by the Government that it could be allowed to go bust in the
:02:38. > :02:43.first case of its kind. South London ehealthcare has been losing
:02:43. > :02:46.up to �1 million a week. The Government is going to bring in a
:02:46. > :02:50.special administrator to put the trust on a sound footing. Let us
:02:50. > :02:54.speak to our political correspondent Norman Smith. Why has
:02:54. > :02:59.the trust gone bust? Because it is running out of money and can't
:02:59. > :03:02.balance the books. The argument is over why it can't. We have got into
:03:03. > :03:09.a political blame game with the Government saying the problem is
:03:09. > :03:14.the PFI it signed up to build two new hospital, those contracts are
:03:14. > :03:18.unaffordable, something like �2.5 billion. Labour say it is not the
:03:18. > :03:21.PFI that is the problem it is Andrew Lansley health reforms and
:03:21. > :03:25.the fact he botch add reconfiguration of that particular
:03:25. > :03:28.trust. We are into a stand off between Labour and the
:03:28. > :03:31.Conservatives over why it can't balance the book, but the the
:03:31. > :03:35.bottom line is, you and I are probably going to have to bail it
:03:35. > :03:39.out in one way or the other. The thinking is an administrator will
:03:39. > :03:44.try and draw up a plan to ensure the trust can continue, but the
:03:44. > :03:47.bill for the PFI in all probability will be passed over to the taxpayer
:03:47. > :03:51.and we will have to pick it up. well as that, what happens to the
:03:51. > :03:56.three hospitals? What happens to patients at the hospitals? Very
:03:56. > :04:00.interesting. If you talk to figure like the former health secretary he
:04:00. > :04:04.says this is an opportunity to look at how the Health Service is
:04:04. > :04:10.configured in that part of London. Do they need three hospitals? You
:04:10. > :04:13.talk to the Health Minister and they say it is far too premature.
:04:13. > :04:17.Health professional, secretary, there is a view we have too many
:04:17. > :04:21.hospitals and people have to get off being so attacheded to bricks
:04:21. > :04:25.and mortar and think about services. What will be interesting is whether
:04:25. > :04:29.in drawing up a revises plan the administrator concludes, you know
:04:29. > :04:34.what, we could do things better, we don't necessarily need three
:04:34. > :04:38.hospitals. Politically though, hugely, hugely difficult to close a
:04:38. > :04:43.hospital. As always has been, thank yo you. She sacked one thousand
:04:43. > :04:48.teacher, closed more than 30 schools and got rid two of thirds
:04:48. > :04:54.of the heads under her control? Why, to drive up standard in one of the
:04:54. > :05:00.worst performing school districts in the US. Michael Gove described
:05:00. > :05:03.her as his hero. She is re-and our guest of the day. Her methods are
:05:03. > :05:10.controversial but do they work and could we see them being employed
:05:10. > :05:15.here. We sent our reporter to meet her. This is a warrior woman, she
:05:15. > :05:20.is a warrior woman. Not many school reformers get to rub shoulders with
:05:20. > :05:25.the A-listers be this the re-and in the State she is a big deal. This
:05:25. > :05:28.is Michelle Rhee in action, dealing with a head teacher she reckons
:05:28. > :05:31.isn't cutting the mustard. I don't believe you are going to be the
:05:31. > :05:36.leader who is go to take this school in the direction we need it
:05:36. > :05:41.to go in and have the highest expectations, aim terminating your
:05:41. > :05:45.principal ship now. This is Michelle Rhee, in Lambeth. She is
:05:45. > :05:50.feisty, controversial, and she is over here. The system for driving
:05:50. > :05:54.up standards is simple. Test whether kids are improving. Test
:05:54. > :05:58.teachers, reward the good with higher salaries. She made her name
:05:58. > :06:02.in Washington, the worst performing district of the US when she took
:06:02. > :06:07.over in 2007. In three years, Michelle Rhee closed more than 30
:06:07. > :06:11.schools, sacked round a thousand teacher, and got rid of nearly 100
:06:11. > :06:15.heads, including the one at her daughter's school. In America, both
:06:15. > :06:21.the republicans and the Democrats like her and she has a big fan over
:06:21. > :06:24.here. In the most important city in the world, she was the most
:06:24. > :06:27.important woman. To me the most important thing is what is in the
:06:27. > :06:33.interests of children. Michelle points out in everything she does,
:06:33. > :06:37.that what they need is the most effective teachers, who demands the
:06:37. > :06:44.highest standards and is relentless about that. The schools which are
:06:44. > :06:48.poor have children from the poorest community, so if we need to achieve
:06:48. > :06:51.social justice we need to transform the school, to make sure the
:06:51. > :06:55.teachers who are not doing a good job move on and we support the
:06:55. > :07:00.teachers who are doing a good job by paying them more and giving them
:07:00. > :07:03.freedom to inspire. Put simply Michelle Rhee analyses whether
:07:03. > :07:07.pupils' result improve over a period of time. If they do top
:07:07. > :07:11.marks to teacher and more pay. If they don't, I think you know the
:07:11. > :07:16.answer to that. Michelle Rhee's critic says test scores aren't
:07:17. > :07:19.everything and an unfair way of deciding who to hire and fire. She
:07:20. > :07:24.has clashed with the American teaching union, you can't imagine
:07:24. > :07:29.them loving her over here. Results did improve making the largest gain
:07:29. > :07:34.in maths and reading in the whole of the US over a two-year period.
:07:34. > :07:40.She cut a deal with the unions, making it easier to hire and fire
:07:40. > :07:45.teachers N 2010 she resigned. She lost her political backing and some
:07:45. > :07:50.say she alienated many. Even though she went, Washington carried on
:07:50. > :07:55.with her project. She is now running student first, ans or which
:07:55. > :07:59.wants to use her method to drive up standards. Don't bet against seeing
:08:00. > :08:05.a lot more of her in English classrooms too. She is still here
:08:05. > :08:11.with us now. We are joined now by Mary Bousted, General Secretary of
:08:11. > :08:14.the association of teachers and lecturers which represents 160,000
:08:14. > :08:20.teachers. What is the key to radically improving educational
:08:20. > :08:26.standards in school, particularly those in poor areas? Well, the
:08:26. > :08:30.research is clear that the inschool factor that has the most impact on
:08:30. > :08:36.levels is the quality of teacher, and so we have to make sure that we
:08:36. > :08:39.have laws and policies in place, that are focused on teacher quality.
:08:39. > :08:45.We also believe that every family has to have lots of high quality
:08:45. > :08:48.options for schooling for their children. So families cannot ever
:08:48. > :08:52.feel like they are trapped in failing school. We have to give
:08:53. > :08:56.them options to choose from. How do you guarantee that teacher quality?
:08:57. > :09:00.You know, the vast majority of teachers that are out there are
:09:00. > :09:04.teaching for the right reasons, and we have to support teachers because
:09:04. > :09:07.they literally have the hardest job, I think, out there, but we also
:09:07. > :09:12.have to make sure they are doing right by kids, and so one of the
:09:12. > :09:16.things we think is most important is to evaluate teachers based on a
:09:16. > :09:20.rigorous evaluation model and tool, and we recognise and reward the
:09:20. > :09:24.most highly effect tiff teachers and for those who are not serving
:09:24. > :09:30.kids well with have to accelerate their practise to become better or
:09:30. > :09:34.move them out of the profession. You have sacked about 1,000 as we
:09:34. > :09:38.saw Yes, doing that is never easy or pleasant but it is something
:09:39. > :09:43.that is in the best interest of children. Do you agree with that?
:09:43. > :09:46.Well, if teachers could be evaluated in the way Michelle says
:09:46. > :09:49.simply to demonstrate quality in that way, that would be the Holy
:09:49. > :09:55.Grail of education systems but we have tried it and they can.
:09:55. > :10:02.Teaching is a complex job. Of course, the quality of teacher
:10:02. > :10:07.matters. We are a yuenn who have 4,000 courses doing MA course, we
:10:07. > :10:10.put 3,000 through train they need. We believe quality matters but you
:10:10. > :10:16.can't measure it in the way Michelle did in Washington?
:10:16. > :10:21.not? The way they did it was through test results as soon as you
:10:21. > :10:24.use standardised test what you get is teaching to the test, because
:10:24. > :10:29.for schools whether they the principal stays in the job for
:10:29. > :10:32.teacher, the test results are all, so you get routine overdrilling in
:10:32. > :10:37.the tests, in Washington, the results were questioned over a
:10:37. > :10:44.third of the schools in Washington, in 2008, there were complaints that
:10:44. > :10:49.the tests were not being admin stirstered properly. Wrong to right
:10:49. > :10:51.answers, or erasure, rubbing out answers so there has been huge
:10:52. > :10:56.controversy. First if you know anything about the evaluation
:10:56. > :11:00.system that we set up in Washington DC, part of the evaluation is based
:11:00. > :11:04.on growth and student achievement, which is a teacher's job to teach
:11:04. > :11:09.the children. What if they have to cheat? Let us answer the fist part.
:11:09. > :11:12.A lot of the eVal valuation is based on observation of classroom
:11:12. > :11:16.practise so we go in to the classroom, we watch what they are
:11:16. > :11:21.doing, how the teachers interact with children, that is how this
:11:21. > :11:26.they are evaluated. Another piece is how the school works as a team.
:11:26. > :11:30.The last component is what we call to contribution to school community.
:11:30. > :11:34.Nobody is advocating we look solely attest score, you have to look
:11:34. > :11:38.through multiple lenss to determine whether or not a teacher is
:11:39. > :11:44.effective. Number two the research is clear, that teachers who teach
:11:44. > :11:50.to the test actually don't, their kids don't do better academically.
:11:50. > :11:54.The kids who do the best on tests are the teachers who teach a broad
:11:54. > :11:58.base of skills, and you know critical thinking skills, so
:11:58. > :12:05.teachers who are paying attention to what works are never going to
:12:05. > :12:11.teach to the test. But in your reforms the poorest children, there
:12:11. > :12:18.was as big a gap between poor and rich as when you started. Is that
:12:18. > :12:23.true. When I inherited it we has a 70% gap between where the black
:12:23. > :12:29.students and white students were performing. I would love to say we
:12:29. > :12:33.could erace a decade gap. results improve? The results
:12:33. > :12:38.improved for every single sub group of children. We were the only
:12:39. > :12:45.jurisdiction in the country where every sub group of kids went up.
:12:45. > :12:49.There are research professors who cast severe doubt on what happened
:12:49. > :12:54.in that testing regime. There were accusations of cheating, they were
:12:54. > :12:59.not properly investigate ed. There were, and the latest investigation
:12:59. > :13:02.that happened showed that there were only two classrooms in which
:13:02. > :13:08.something went awry that people made the wrong decision the bottom
:13:08. > :13:12.line is I have a lot of faith in teachers. I believe as
:13:12. > :13:15.professionals the vast majority would never compromise their
:13:15. > :13:18.personal or professional integrity. So your faith in teaching means as
:13:18. > :13:22.the the chief executive of Washington you fake a TV camera in
:13:23. > :13:26.to film a principal being sacked. At that moment, when a teacher is
:13:26. > :13:31.going the ultimate humiliation you broadcast to the nation. That is
:13:31. > :13:36.your view of valuing and supporting teacher. You know what...
:13:36. > :13:40.continue you do it in private. did plenty in private. Here is the
:13:40. > :13:45.bottom line, that principal was not providing the teachers in that
:13:45. > :13:49.school with the leadership. lost her job, why broadcast it?
:13:49. > :13:53.Because it actually, it builds confidence in a lot of teachers to
:13:53. > :13:59.know I was listening to them, about the kinds of administrators that
:13:59. > :14:04.were in the building. It was an exercise in public humiliation.
:14:04. > :14:08.Isn't Isn't it difficult to sack teachers here? No. One of the main
:14:08. > :14:14.onjobs a union does is when a teacher can't make the grade, when
:14:14. > :14:18.they are exhausted or can't do it any more, we go in and we broker
:14:18. > :14:25.honourable compi exits for teacher, nobody wants a teacher who can't
:14:25. > :14:31.teach. Why have only 17 been sacked in the last decade. That is the
:14:31. > :14:35.number taken to the general teaching council that. Is the
:14:35. > :14:39.number who made it there. That is a wrong figure. Do you think the
:14:39. > :14:44.methods you have introduced could be introduced here, that what you
:14:44. > :14:48.describe as that much more rigorous looking at teachers and evaluating
:14:48. > :14:53.methods? I think every community has to determine what is going on,
:14:53. > :14:58.that is going to be relevant for them, but at the end of the day, do
:14:58. > :15:02.we need more rigorous evaluations? Absolutely. Teachers are tell you
:15:02. > :15:09.that the current system of evaluation is not working for them,
:15:09. > :15:12.it is not providing them... best way of raising standards was
:15:12. > :15:19.London Challenge, when the Local Authority went in to failing
:15:19. > :15:24.schools, partners them with good school, filled school vacancies and
:15:24. > :15:32.learned, they now outperform other schools. That is the way to raise
:15:33. > :15:36.The cabinet is meeting to discuss House of Lords reform today. As
:15:36. > :15:43.Nick Clegg tries to get one of the Liberal Democrats flagship policies
:15:43. > :15:47.on the statute book. Under proposals, the 450 members will
:15:47. > :15:52.serve a single term of 15 years. 80% will be elected and 20% will be
:15:52. > :15:56.appointed. There are number of concerns over the proposals. Some
:15:56. > :16:04.Conservative backbenchers via the newly elected second chamber could
:16:04. > :16:08.And damage the primacy of the Commons. The government has said a
:16:08. > :16:12.cause will be reinserted to -- will be inserted to reassert the power
:16:12. > :16:16.of the Commons. It was revealed that members would earn �300 for
:16:16. > :16:20.every day they attend, considerably less than MPs receive. And members
:16:20. > :16:24.would continue to have outside interests and jobs. There are a lot
:16:24. > :16:29.of raw politics involved. Bernard Jenkin, senior Conservative
:16:29. > :16:32.backbencher, has threatened a war of attrition, because of the
:16:32. > :16:37.failure of Jeremy Hunt -- of the limit -- because of a failure of
:16:37. > :16:41.the Lib Dems to support Jeremy Hunt. And the Labour Party has yet to
:16:41. > :16:45.decide whether it will support the plans. With us is that the Democrat
:16:45. > :16:49.President Tim Farron, and Conservative MP Simon Hart. Simon
:16:49. > :16:54.Hart, it was in the coalition agreement and in your own manifesto,
:16:54. > :16:58.why don't you support it? It wasn't, to be honest. There was a fleeting
:16:58. > :17:05.reference to finding some consensus on the issue before we tended to
:17:05. > :17:09.anything meaningful. -- turned it into anything. The basis of
:17:09. > :17:14.consensus has been achieved within our own party, let alone the
:17:14. > :17:17.coalition or parliament. I am hugely reluctant and sad to be in
:17:17. > :17:21.this position. With everything else that is going on, this is going to
:17:21. > :17:24.cost about half a billion pounds, it is going to use up a lot of time.
:17:24. > :17:28.For those people who wonder if the MPs are in touch with the realities
:17:28. > :17:32.of life in a recession, they will look at this and think, what on
:17:32. > :17:36.earth are these people doing? Shouldn't they be fixing the
:17:36. > :17:40.economy? Instead we are talking about something that doesn't mean
:17:40. > :17:43.much to my constituents in west Wales. Your main objection is the
:17:43. > :17:48.cost and the timing, what about the principle of having an elected
:17:48. > :17:54.House of Lords, what is wrong with that? I could go on for half an
:17:54. > :17:57.hour about my objections. At the moment, the House of Commons is
:17:57. > :18:01.accountable by recreating it in a different form down the corridor,
:18:01. > :18:05.paying a whole load of new MPs... This is going to cost five times
:18:05. > :18:10.the original cost and it is not going to prove anything. Even Nick
:18:10. > :18:14.Clegg says it is not important. Persuade Simon Hart. We have had
:18:14. > :18:18.100 years of excuses as to why we won't reform the House of Lords.
:18:18. > :18:22.There is always a good excuse not to do it. This doesn't need to take
:18:22. > :18:26.a lot of time. All three parties effectively do have this in their
:18:26. > :18:29.manifesto. There is a sense that there is a mandate to change the
:18:29. > :18:33.House of Lords. I agree with Simon, if I go on the streets of Kendal,
:18:33. > :18:37.this is not been number-one issue. But neither is it an issue that
:18:37. > :18:41.ought to be dropped, just because it is not wisely important to
:18:41. > :18:47.everybody out there. -- vastly important. Having a democracy which
:18:47. > :18:49.takes account of what people think, rather than unaccountable people in
:18:49. > :18:55.the House of Lords, is surely something we should have moved on
:18:55. > :18:59.from. I am not against Lords reform, I would go along with Tim in most
:18:59. > :19:04.of the things. The only thing I don't like the idea is an elected
:19:04. > :19:08.House of Lords. That is the key, isn't it? What we lose is the
:19:08. > :19:12.objectivity, the experience, the expertise, all the things which can,
:19:12. > :19:15.in an elected House, but recreating a mirror image of the Commons,
:19:15. > :19:23.which is going to be expensive and not going to deliver anything
:19:23. > :19:26.better for the country, seems to be inappropriate. I would love to join
:19:26. > :19:31.the Liberal Democrats in some common reforms. I am not sure what
:19:31. > :19:37.those would be forced retirement age, reducing the size of the house.
:19:38. > :19:43.You are not going to get Tories like Simon Hart on board, are you
:19:43. > :19:46.kissing goodbye to this? No. My view is if you look at the House of
:19:46. > :19:52.Lords as it is now, it is indefensible. It works well,
:19:52. > :19:56.doesn't it? Does it really? You have Blue State Digital -- where
:19:56. > :20:03.Greek Shirley Williams you have or five to turn up, get their money
:20:03. > :20:07.and go home -- for every Shirley It is something that I think people
:20:07. > :20:11.feel ought to be changed. The fact that there are people who disagree
:20:11. > :20:14.with Lords reform is hardly a surprise, but it is important, from
:20:14. > :20:18.David Cameron's point of view, that he delivers his part of the bargain.
:20:18. > :20:21.I voted for elected police commissioners, which frankly I
:20:21. > :20:27.don't think is a smart idea, but it was part of the Conservative
:20:27. > :20:31.agreement, the Conservatives wanted it, it is important. You need to
:20:31. > :20:35.keep to your part of the bargain. Playing bargaining chips with the
:20:35. > :20:40.constitution... The coalition might last two-and-a-half years, that is
:20:40. > :20:43.what we are talking about. We are about to put at risk several
:20:43. > :20:46.hundred years of pretty carefully crafted constitution, for the sake
:20:47. > :20:50.of the relationship between David Cameron and Nick Clegg. That is not
:20:50. > :20:54.responsible, let alone all of the other arguments. What we are
:20:54. > :20:58.putting at risk is an unbelievably undemocratic institution. The idea
:20:58. > :21:02.that half of our Parliament is they're not really by birth,
:21:02. > :21:05.probably worse than that, by patronage. If you have done a
:21:05. > :21:09.favour or you think you are owed one by the party leader, you are in
:21:09. > :21:13.the Lords. There are some wonderful people in there but it is an
:21:13. > :21:18.important -- appalling system of institutionalised corruption.
:21:18. > :21:22.wince at that and I don't think that is... Nick Clegg himself says
:21:22. > :21:28.that the House of Lords functions perfectly well and is full of good
:21:28. > :21:31.people. The idea of democratising the house, it makes the assumption
:21:31. > :21:34.that that would improve things. We have spent far too much time
:21:34. > :21:38.worrying about what the House of Lords should look like and not
:21:38. > :21:42.worrying anything like enough about what it should do. We should be
:21:42. > :21:46.working out what we want a second chamber to do, then we should
:21:46. > :21:50.decide how it should look. One of the big problems is about the
:21:50. > :21:54.primacy of the House of Commons and there are genuine concerns that it
:21:54. > :21:58.is another House of Commons. good folks of Kendal and Windermere
:21:58. > :22:01.don't give a stuff about that either, but they like the idea of
:22:01. > :22:03.the House of Lords being accountable to them. The only
:22:04. > :22:08.reason the House of Lords is seen as being fairly powerless is
:22:09. > :22:13.because it has lost its legitimacy, because it isn't elected. Listening
:22:13. > :22:18.to this, do you see the potential problems, that having two elected
:22:18. > :22:24.houses can be a recipe for conflict? Speaking as an American,
:22:24. > :22:29.we have a bicameral elective legislator, I think it provides
:22:29. > :22:32.checks and balances -- legislature. I wouldn't want anyone to think
:22:32. > :22:36.that by having two elected offices, it means all the problems are
:22:36. > :22:42.solved. In America we're having lots of problems that have to do
:22:42. > :22:46.with partisan politics, as opposed to how many of the house is our
:22:46. > :22:54.elected or not. Pieces of it worked well in America, but some problems
:22:54. > :22:58.will be there. Regardless. The tizz not a panacea, Chedjou once said
:22:58. > :23:04.democracy is dreadful until you consider the alternatives. --
:23:04. > :23:08.Churchill once said. Thank you. The Northern Ireland peace process
:23:08. > :23:12.has had its fair share of historic events and tomorrow, we will get
:23:12. > :23:15.another, when the Queen shake hands with Martin McGuinness, former IRA
:23:15. > :23:21.leader and now a Northern Ireland's Deputy First Minister. The crowds
:23:21. > :23:25.are waiting for the Queen in the town of Enniskillen, where the
:23:25. > :23:28.Queen is due to arrive shortly for the start of a two day trip. She is
:23:28. > :23:33.due to attend a thanksgiving service in the town and tomorrow
:23:33. > :23:37.she will meet Mr McGuinness at an arts event in Belfast. Joining me
:23:37. > :23:41.from Belfast is the Sinn Fein MP and Northern Ireland Assembly
:23:41. > :23:46.Member, Conor Murphy, and we have former Northern Ireland Secretary
:23:46. > :23:52.Peter Hayne with us. Conor Murphy, how significant is the meeting of
:23:52. > :23:59.Martin McGuinness and the Queen? is very significant. It presents an
:23:59. > :24:05.opportunity to further the conciliation on Northern Ireland,
:24:05. > :24:11.those with an affinity to the Royal Family and the rest of us. And for
:24:11. > :24:15.the two Islands to contribute to the idea of reconciliation. It
:24:15. > :24:22.helps us and move forward to a much more positive place and in that
:24:22. > :24:26.regard I think it is significant. Are you welcoming the Queen as a
:24:26. > :24:32.foreign head of state? There are different views. My allegiance is
:24:33. > :24:36.to the Irish Republic, not to the United Kingdom or any monarch
:24:36. > :24:40.battle -- at all. There are different views. The fact that the
:24:40. > :24:44.event is organised in such a way that includes the Irish President,
:24:44. > :24:48.the first and Deputy First Minister and the Queen, recognises that this
:24:48. > :24:51.place is a contested area, contested space, there are
:24:51. > :24:54.differing political allegiances here. I think it is sensitive to
:24:54. > :25:00.that. The way the event is organised and the fact that Martin
:25:00. > :25:04.McGuinness will be meeting and greeting the Queen lends itself to
:25:04. > :25:09.the idea we have different allegiances but we are able to
:25:09. > :25:14.reconcile amongst ourselves how weak resolve those differences.
:25:14. > :25:17.Conor Murphy says it is a significant make but clear to make
:25:17. > :25:21.a difference in his views to the Queen coming over to Northern
:25:21. > :25:26.Ireland and what she represents. How far do you think Sinn Fein has
:25:26. > :25:29.moved? What is interesting and significant, Conor Murphy spoke
:25:29. > :25:32.prematurely and that is the view of Sinn Fein. They have not moved one
:25:32. > :25:36.inch from their commitment to the united Ireland, their republican
:25:36. > :25:39.views, he has expressed it articulately. They are saying that
:25:39. > :25:43.not island is in a different place from where it was -- Northern
:25:44. > :25:48.Ireland is in. The police settlement of 2007 moved things on
:25:48. > :25:53.and this is about showing respect and continuing to move on, and to
:25:53. > :25:58.try to heal the conflict and the torn bitterness and evil and horror
:25:58. > :26:04.that has gone back for a very long time, and the troubled relationship
:26:04. > :26:06.between Britain and Ireland. won't be easy for the Queen,
:26:06. > :26:11.meeting Martin McGuinness, shaking his hand. Her cousin, Lord
:26:11. > :26:16.Mountbatten, was killed by the IRA. What has gone into this meeting and
:26:16. > :26:19.gesture? It will be very difficult for the Queen. For precisely the
:26:19. > :26:23.reasons you say. It is equally difficult for Martin McGuinness and
:26:23. > :26:28.his Republican followers. The history is of victims on all sides
:26:28. > :26:34.of this conflict. And what they have done is to look to the future,
:26:34. > :26:38.not to the past, and said, where we want to go is to build confidence,
:26:38. > :26:41.build relationships and move forward. That is what is important,
:26:41. > :26:45.but it will be very difficult. Conor Murphy, is there a sense that
:26:45. > :26:49.you and your colleagues were wrong- footed last year by boycotting the
:26:49. > :26:55.Queen's visit to Ireland? Because it was deemed very popular, she
:26:55. > :26:59.spoke a few words of Irish and was welcomed by Mary McAleese, who said
:26:59. > :27:02.wow at the time, and you were not there. The Queen's visit to the
:27:02. > :27:05.south last year was about reconciliation between the Irish
:27:05. > :27:10.state and the British state. That was the first visit of a British
:27:10. > :27:15.monarch in over 100 years. We did recognise that there were important
:27:15. > :27:18.element to that visit. The attendance of the gardens of
:27:18. > :27:21.remembrance, the honouring of those who had resisted British rule in
:27:21. > :27:25.Northern Ireland, the speech and the commentary that the Queen made
:27:25. > :27:29.in relation to the role of the British state in Northern Ireland,
:27:29. > :27:33.all of those were important. We felt at that time, as incorrectly,
:27:33. > :27:37.that it was an issue about reconciliation between the state in
:27:38. > :27:42.Ireland and the British state. This is about reconciliation in the
:27:42. > :27:46.north and the people in the North, and between the two countries as
:27:46. > :27:49.well. It is important and significant that Martin makes this
:27:49. > :27:55.initiative tomorrow, and contributes to the reconciliation
:27:55. > :27:58.process. What about your community? There will always be parts who do
:27:58. > :28:03.not support this. How difficult has that been, has the representation
:28:03. > :28:09.been made forcefully to you? Yes, absolutely and it has caused a
:28:09. > :28:14.difficult debate. Martin McGuinness is from Derry, the British
:28:14. > :28:18.paratroopers shot dead on Monday -- Bloody Sunday. There are issues to
:28:18. > :28:21.deal with in terms of the legacy of the conflict. We have to balance
:28:21. > :28:24.those against the positive contribution that such an
:28:24. > :28:30.engagement can have and on balance, it is more important that we do
:28:30. > :28:37.this and continued to move Reconciliation on the island of
:28:37. > :28:41.Ireland and the two nations. husband is a politician in the
:28:41. > :28:47.States and you have to know that things are always changing, you
:28:47. > :28:51.cannot set rules and a lie with certain people. You have to be