27/06/2012

:00:53. > :00:59.A day for Nick Clegg as he unveiled his plans to reform the House of

:00:59. > :01:04.Lords. Happy days. Scores of Tory MPs are plotting to scupper his

:01:04. > :01:08.bill. George Osborne surprises everybody and postponed a three

:01:08. > :01:18.pence rise in petrol duty. When did he change his mind and did his

:01:18. > :01:19.

:01:19. > :01:22.colleagues know about the decision? Professor Brian Cox joins us to

:01:22. > :01:29.argue for change in the libel laws. We debate whether Britain's private

:01:29. > :01:35.schools should be abolished. They are a pox on society, abstract

:01:35. > :01:40.social mobility and should be shut down -- they abstract.

:01:40. > :01:45.All that to come before 1 o'clock and Prime Minister's Questions from

:01:45. > :01:51.noon. With this work and Pensions Minister of Maria Millar and

:01:51. > :01:56.Douglas Alexander. George Osborne postponed his three

:01:56. > :02:06.pence increase in fuel duty and instead of owning headlines there

:02:06. > :02:07.

:02:07. > :02:12.is just another budget U-turn to add to the existing shambles. Last

:02:12. > :02:15.night in a difficult interview Chloe Smith, treasury minister,

:02:15. > :02:19.struggled to deal with questions on when she was told about the

:02:19. > :02:23.decision. He has been under consideration for

:02:23. > :02:29.Tom -- possum had. When was the decision taken?

:02:29. > :02:33.It has been under consideration for some time.

:02:34. > :02:38.When were you told? I have been involved for some time.

:02:38. > :02:46.He didn't take the decision, obviously. When were you told?

:02:46. > :02:52.We had a collective discussion in due course, and although I cannot

:02:52. > :02:57.give you the full details. Did it happen today? You can't

:02:57. > :03:03.remember? You would hold some 10 today -- you were told sometime

:03:03. > :03:09.today? Before lunch or after lunch? I cannot comment.

:03:09. > :03:13.When we told? It has been under discussion for

:03:13. > :03:17.some weeks. The Treasury minister Chloe Smith

:03:17. > :03:22.discussing the decision to postpone the rise in fuel duty last night.

:03:22. > :03:28.Maria Millar, she was facing a tough time, awkward questions.

:03:28. > :03:33.you feel for her watching that? The important announcement was

:03:33. > :03:36.families can look forward to having that August increase in fuel duty

:03:37. > :03:42.put forward by the last Labour government delayed and it is

:03:42. > :03:46.important. Recognising the fact that as a result of not taking

:03:46. > :03:49.forward Labour's plans for increasing fuel, it is 10 pence a

:03:49. > :03:53.litre less than it would have been an that recognises the difficult

:03:53. > :03:56.situation. If it is such a difficult and

:03:56. > :03:59.important policy announcement to have been made at the last minute

:03:59. > :04:04.did you think a more senior member of the government should have been

:04:04. > :04:09.dealing with media outlets? The Chancellor spoke to the House

:04:09. > :04:13.of Commons and announced it as part of his questions, and entirely

:04:13. > :04:18.appropriate way to do it. What Chloe Smith last night was doing

:04:18. > :04:21.was trying to make sure that people understood the reasons for the

:04:21. > :04:24.decision. She didn't really understand the

:04:24. > :04:27.reasons. A up until lunchtime their text

:04:27. > :04:32.messages from Tory whips to MPs saying hold the line, defend the

:04:32. > :04:37.line, the duty rise will go ahead. Why did a change of heart come?

:04:37. > :04:42.It is important the Chancellor makes those announcements. Usually

:04:42. > :04:46.we got on programmes like this asking.

:04:47. > :04:50.When did he change his mind? I am not privy to those

:04:51. > :04:55.conversations. I think it is right it goes to the House of Commons.

:04:55. > :04:59.You agreed the decision but do you think in terms of the way it was

:04:59. > :05:05.handled if Tory MPs and Tory ministers, even Justine Greening

:05:05. > :05:09.didn't know over the weekend, there is a change of heart within hours

:05:09. > :05:12.before it is announced. The rise way to handle these things is look

:05:12. > :05:18.at the effect it will have on families and making sure families

:05:18. > :05:25.have got the money they need. It is important the government does

:05:25. > :05:28.listen. It was a U-turn? A change of heart?

:05:28. > :05:35.In the Budget you said you would, he said he would implement this

:05:35. > :05:39.rise, it was your policy. Why did you change your mind?

:05:39. > :05:42.The it is making sure we have got a policy.

:05:42. > :05:47.What happened between April and now?

:05:47. > :05:55.The policy announced yesterday reflects the current situation many

:05:55. > :05:57.families face. We have friends in council tax, we have lifted -- we

:05:57. > :06:02.have frozen council tax. We are recognising the situation.

:06:02. > :06:12.It has got worse and your government.

:06:12. > :06:16.

:06:16. > :06:23.But are now sit on the day Labour had wanted it. Just finally, on

:06:23. > :06:27.Chloe Smith, it does seem a bit unfair for her, it has been said

:06:27. > :06:35.good as bomb was a coward not coming to face the cameras himself

:06:35. > :06:41.-- George Osborne was a coward. We all individually go out and talk

:06:41. > :06:46.about this. This government used to talk about

:06:46. > :06:50.having a fuel regulator. When global few -- fuel prices were

:06:50. > :06:54.rising you would cut or freeze the tax so the impact wasn't so bad,

:06:54. > :06:59.and when global fuel prices were falling you would freeze or raise

:06:59. > :07:05.the tax so that you have got more revenue. You have just done the

:07:05. > :07:11.exact opposite. Global fuel prices, they are in freefall at the moment.

:07:11. > :07:15.And yet you cut the tax. It is the exact opposite of what you said you

:07:15. > :07:19.would you buy your own standards, you should have raised the tax. Why

:07:19. > :07:24.have you changed? We are trying to make sure the

:07:24. > :07:28.absolute price at the pump is something that families can afford.

:07:28. > :07:34.It is falling. We have put in place a policy that

:07:34. > :07:39.will help families. We want to make sure the pressure continues to be

:07:39. > :07:44.there because we know from filling up the family car is a great

:07:44. > :07:48.pressure. You called it the fuel regulator.

:07:48. > :07:53.Now you have done the exact opposite and I did understand why.

:07:53. > :07:57.I have said three or four times why, we are recognising for many

:07:57. > :08:03.families and also businesses, the cost of fuel is a real issue.

:08:03. > :08:07.He it is falling. I did want to leave Douglas

:08:07. > :08:11.Alexander all lonely at the end -- I do not want to leave. The words

:08:11. > :08:15.hypocrisy which were used in that text from the Tory whips about

:08:15. > :08:20.Labour's call, not the first government to postpone a fuel duty

:08:20. > :08:26.rise. You did it during the Glasgow by-election, pure politics.

:08:26. > :08:35.We did it during the global financial crisis in 2008. One. I do

:08:35. > :08:45.agree with Maria on, -- one point, it is frankly a shambled. -- a

:08:45. > :08:45.

:08:45. > :08:49.shambles. What actually changed so that it

:08:49. > :08:52.wasn't discussed in the Cabinet? It is inconceivable you would have a

:08:53. > :08:56.change and fuel duty without consultation with the Transport

:08:56. > :09:00.Secretary. The Transport Secretary before every Budget makes

:09:00. > :09:05.submissions to the Chancellor. Why wasn't the discussion with the

:09:05. > :09:08.Cabinet? The Transport Secretary? Why it is nobody in government able

:09:08. > :09:13.to explain what changed in the mind of good Osborne and David Cameron

:09:13. > :09:19.at lunchtime yesterday, other than the fact they realised they were in

:09:19. > :09:23.an indefensible position? You will be asking him to explain

:09:23. > :09:30.that. We will.

:09:30. > :09:35.Now a subject close to our hearts. You may think the higher the tax

:09:35. > :09:43.rate, the more government -- more money the government will have. One

:09:43. > :09:48.man who disagrees is Andrew left her, a former adviser to President

:09:48. > :09:52.Reagan and the creator of the Laffer curve. After a certain point

:09:52. > :09:59.government receipts go up, tax rates can go down. If you cut the

:09:59. > :10:03.tax you end up with more money. Earlier I caught up with Dr luffa,

:10:03. > :10:09.began by asking if the government was to cut our taxes, would it

:10:09. > :10:15.increase its revenues? Certainly some of the taxes could cut it --

:10:15. > :10:19.could be cut and you could end up with more revenue. If you redesign

:10:19. > :10:24.your tax codes you can collect a lot more revenue by having a very

:10:24. > :10:30.efficient flat tax system and get a lot more revenue.

:10:30. > :10:35.We would all play the same rate regardless of income? -- paid? Is

:10:35. > :10:37.that fair? It is very fair, especially

:10:37. > :10:43.considering the prosperity it could create.

:10:43. > :10:49.A lot of talk in Britain about tax avoidance. Is that an inevitable

:10:49. > :10:52.part of a hide that world. Yes. People don't like paying tax

:10:52. > :10:59.and they do what they can to get around it. Some of them are a

:10:59. > :11:03.little bit sketchy, but people really focus on money. If you drop

:11:03. > :11:10.a fire punnet on the street, but you if you come back into hours it

:11:10. > :11:15.will not be there -- five-pound note. Taxes are very important to

:11:15. > :11:19.people. The argument in this country has

:11:19. > :11:24.been about austerity, the government says we have got to get

:11:24. > :11:32.the deficit down, Labour says we should stimulate more to try to get

:11:32. > :11:36.some growth. Where I do? If you believe the government

:11:36. > :11:41.spending is taxed, the government doesn't create resources, it

:11:41. > :11:48.redistributes them. Every dollar they give to somebody, I consider

:11:48. > :11:51.that austerity. I consider cutting government spending.

:11:51. > :11:57.Labour is talking about cutting the rate.

:11:57. > :12:01.But they have just raised it which is outrageous. 20% VAT, that is a

:12:01. > :12:11.very high rate. When Ed Balls say we cut the rate

:12:11. > :12:11.

:12:11. > :12:17.of VAT, he has the support of Arthur Laffer?

:12:17. > :12:25.It is a disincentive for people to work. The government is taking 20%

:12:25. > :12:32.of all are put, a lot of money. -- output. What are you allowed to

:12:32. > :12:39.keep? There was a time when politicians

:12:39. > :12:44.listened to you, Mrs Thatcher. Mr Regan. Mr Clinton, Mr Blair,

:12:44. > :12:52.consolidated what they have done. They don't listen to you any more.

:12:52. > :12:55.I don't know. But I am speaking the same as before. You did have to be

:12:55. > :13:00.listened to to say the correct things. It worked pretty well for

:13:00. > :13:07.Blair, didn't it? For Clinton, I thought Reagan did pretty well in

:13:07. > :13:11.the US. You prefer you had under Gordon Brown, and what you're

:13:11. > :13:21.getting now. If you do, go for it, it is your country, you can choose

:13:21. > :13:22.

:13:22. > :13:25.to listen to whatever you want to choose. Go for it. But remember,

:13:25. > :13:31.you will have to leave the consequences of what you listen to.

:13:31. > :13:35.I am here to try to be a help. If I am not a help, turned me off.

:13:35. > :13:39.We have to now, we have come to the end of the did you. Plenty very

:13:39. > :13:46.much. We switched him off politely. The

:13:46. > :13:55.three names he mentioned, three American economists to take a

:13:55. > :14:01.different view to him. You can see a longer interview on the website.

:14:01. > :14:05.Even a hero of the free-market right thinks Ed Balls is right.

:14:05. > :14:10.I think what we were hearing was a call for a simpler and fairer tax

:14:10. > :14:14.system and that is something that I understand. I happen to have

:14:14. > :14:20.studied the Laffer curve one I was studying economics in the 80s so it

:14:20. > :14:27.is nothing new. -- when I was studying. We are trying to

:14:27. > :14:31.supervise the tax system. Taking 2 million people out of tax

:14:31. > :14:35.altogether feels like a simplification. In this country you

:14:35. > :14:40.cannot really look at tax and the complications and the incentives it

:14:40. > :14:43.brings without looking at welfare as well. When you look at the

:14:43. > :14:48.changes we are making to make the system more understandable, and

:14:48. > :14:57.making sure work pace, doctor left there would be supportive of that

:14:57. > :15:03.as well. -- Arthur Laffer. And the flat tax system? The simplification

:15:03. > :15:08.is taking exactly what he is talking about. Taking 2 million

:15:08. > :15:14.people out of the basic rate. doesn't make it flattered. It makes

:15:14. > :15:20.people understand the role of tax. Every time I ask you about flatter,

:15:20. > :15:24.use a simpler. He what Way has George Osborne made the taxes

:15:24. > :15:30.flatter? -- In what way. It is simply George Osborne was looking

:15:30. > :15:33.at. What he is very much focusing on is hard to make sure the tax

:15:34. > :15:37.system promotes people to work harder, promotes them to stay in

:15:37. > :15:47.this country, so the changes at the top rate of tax as well, inspired

:15:47. > :15:56.

:15:56. > :16:00.Laffer didn't just influence Tony Blair. He accepted that 40% was the

:16:00. > :16:04.right rate for the top rate of tax. He knew that if you did increase

:16:04. > :16:08.that there was a danger you could end up with last. Taxes have to be

:16:08. > :16:14.judged according to economic circumstances. Gordon Brown was the

:16:14. > :16:17.Chancellor then. He sat at the top rate of tax. Arthur Laffer may be

:16:17. > :16:21.engaging company but he is a discredited Economist in terms of

:16:21. > :16:25.his first recital, Ronald Reagan, where the deficit grew rather than

:16:25. > :16:29.shrink as a consequence of the massive tax -- massive tax cuts.

:16:29. > :16:33.But that was because there was a build up in military spending.

:16:33. > :16:36.he never talks about the spending side. His famous Graf was in

:16:36. > :16:41.relation to tax. There was a build up in military spending because of

:16:41. > :16:45.the Cold War. If there has to be a balance between income and

:16:45. > :16:50.expenditure. That is why you need to reach a judgment based on

:16:50. > :16:57.circumstances. You accepted the Laffer thesis. You accepted that

:16:57. > :17:01.40% was the optimum rate of tax. accepted that you need to have

:17:01. > :17:08.racial judgments according to economic circumstances. To help

:17:08. > :17:12.Maria with the question you ask or, she could have said cutting the 50p

:17:12. > :17:15.rate, but our judgment is that is the wrong judgment at this time.

:17:15. > :17:20.Rewarding millionaires at a point where George Osborne, however

:17:20. > :17:24.ridiculously, is trying to assert that we are in this together.

:17:24. > :17:28.if 50p brings in less money? If you look at the evidence, it does bring

:17:28. > :17:33.in significant sums of money and we make a judgment that it sends a

:17:33. > :17:38.very clear signal that those at the top of society continue to have a

:17:38. > :17:43.responsibility. How much extra has the 50p rate brought in? About half

:17:43. > :17:47.of what it was estimated. accept that it did bring in money?

:17:47. > :17:52.It brought in half of what was anticipated. How much? How much?

:17:52. > :17:55.You have to accept that even the Labour government so that tax

:17:56. > :18:03.increase. Ulex SAT that it was bringing in income but you cut it

:18:03. > :18:05.anyway? -- you accept that. Why are you giving a tax cuts to

:18:05. > :18:09.millionairess during a double-dip recession? We are trying to make

:18:09. > :18:13.sure that we attract people and industry here. Let's move on to

:18:13. > :18:18.something else you disagree about. All three main parties say they

:18:18. > :18:23.support the reform of the House of Lords. They all put it into their

:18:23. > :18:29.manifestos. So you might be forgiven for thinking that it is

:18:29. > :18:33.job done, simple, simples even. When the Bill to reform the laws

:18:33. > :18:38.gets -- reform the Lords gets into the House of Commons today, it may

:18:38. > :18:41.begin a turbulent passage through Parliament. It could even result in

:18:41. > :18:45.the biggest Conservative rebellion in modern history. What is

:18:45. > :18:49.happening? Well, Nick Clegg and his party

:18:49. > :18:50.desperately want to push this Bill through. Yesterday the party's

:18:50. > :18:54.through. Yesterday the party's President told this programme that

:18:54. > :18:58.Law Lords was an appalling system of institutionalised corruption. He

:18:58. > :19:02.did not hold back. David Cameron has promised Nick Clegg that his

:19:02. > :19:06.party will support the plans and he has imposed a three-line whip on

:19:06. > :19:09.his MPs. However, it is thought that up to 100 Conservative MPs

:19:09. > :19:14.could be ready to rebel against the Government. Many are worried that

:19:14. > :19:18.an elected second chamber could challenge the primacy of the House

:19:18. > :19:21.of Commons. Labour says it supports the principle of Lords reform but

:19:22. > :19:26.Ed Miliband has said he will vote against the programme motion, to

:19:26. > :19:31.limit the amount of time given to the debate. One Tory MP told us he

:19:31. > :19:33.would be prepared to do the same and losing -- risk losing his job

:19:33. > :19:42.as Parliamentary Private Secretary. as Parliamentary Private Secretary.

:19:42. > :19:46.Be appointed House of Lords works. The Commons accept 80% of the bills.

:19:46. > :19:50.I intend to support a position by opposing the programmed motion and

:19:50. > :19:55.the second reading of the bill. are joined by Michael Forsyth.

:19:56. > :19:59.Before I come to Michael Forsyth, Maria Miller, if the Government is

:19:59. > :20:05.defeated on what is called the programmed motion, on which is to

:20:05. > :20:08.determine the amount of time that the constitutional change should be

:20:08. > :20:11.on the floor of the House, if the Government is defeated does it kill

:20:11. > :20:15.the Bill? It does not. We are trying to make sure we get the

:20:15. > :20:18.right balance between debating something which is important, and

:20:18. > :20:21.reform of the House of Lords is important, but there are other

:20:21. > :20:25.things the Government is doing and we need that time in Parliament.

:20:25. > :20:29.The programme commotion will make sure we have the right balance.

:20:29. > :20:33.will proceed even if the programmed motion falls? If the programme's

:20:33. > :20:37.motion does not go through, all of this Bill Haas to be taken on the

:20:37. > :20:42.floor of the House, and you will have to sideline all the other

:20:42. > :20:46.legislative programmes. None of the main political parties in the House

:20:46. > :20:50.of Commons believes that we should be not making progress on other

:20:50. > :20:55.areas of our legislation. Would you have time if you go ahead without a

:20:55. > :20:57.guillotine on this bill? It will be down to members of the House of

:20:57. > :21:04.Commons and I believe the programmed motion will go through.

:21:04. > :21:08.I ask you, if it does not, will you have time for anything else? That

:21:08. > :21:12.would come down to the amount of people who wanted to participate in

:21:12. > :21:16.debates. I think there will be quite a few. We will be going back

:21:16. > :21:20.to the old days when there was no restrictions on debates. Harold

:21:20. > :21:23.Wilson lost his effective programmed motion in 1969 to reform

:21:23. > :21:27.the House of Lords. He had to abandon his reform altogether.

:21:27. > :21:30.Michael Forsyth, you have agreed in principle to an elected second

:21:30. > :21:34.chamber or mainly elected. If the coalition agreement reinforced that

:21:34. > :21:38.and you have come forward with these proposals. Surely it is time

:21:38. > :21:44.to live up to the promise. Unusually, none of these statements

:21:44. > :21:53.are true. Our manifesto commitment was to seek a consensus towards a

:21:53. > :21:59.largely elected House. And on the coalition agreement, the coalition

:22:00. > :22:04.said that we would set up a committee to bring forward

:22:04. > :22:07.proposals. That committee met once before breaking up in disarray.

:22:07. > :22:10.There is no manifesto commitment from the Conservatives or anything

:22:10. > :22:14.else in the agreement that says that we should proceed with this

:22:14. > :22:21.ridiculous Bill, comprehensively rubbished already by a joint

:22:21. > :22:31.committee of both Houses. Is there a consensus? De does not appear to

:22:31. > :22:34.

:22:34. > :22:38.be. We believe in the reform. -- there does not appear to be. We are

:22:38. > :22:44.willing to prove that it is there by voting in favour of what we are

:22:44. > :22:48.not convinced of as a perfect bill. We will show good faith and

:22:48. > :22:51.commitment by voting for the bill in a second reading. Your

:22:51. > :22:56.commitment was a referendum. that is one of the issues that I

:22:56. > :23:00.hope will be resolved. You will not vote for the motion to curtail

:23:01. > :23:04.debate. We will not, because we are serious about reform and we are

:23:04. > :23:08.serious about scrutiny. My understanding is the amount of time

:23:08. > :23:12.that has been contemplated for such a major constitutional change is

:23:12. > :23:15.derisory. Michael has already said they are not contemplating having a

:23:15. > :23:19.referendums will be one to exclude the public. We want to avoid a

:23:19. > :23:24.situation where members of parliament are excluded from the

:23:24. > :23:28.scrutiny that is demanded. You used to be a member of the House of

:23:28. > :23:32.Commons, if you cannot get a programmed motion through, and I am

:23:32. > :23:36.-- am I right in thinking it is a fancy name for a guillotine? And we

:23:36. > :23:40.also had a manifesto commitment, by the way, to end the automatic

:23:40. > :23:43.timetabling Bills. This is a constitutional Bill which will

:23:43. > :23:47.always be taken without a guillotine. On the floor of the

:23:47. > :23:54.House. The very idea of doing this with a timetable motion in itself

:23:54. > :23:59.is an outrage compared to what we told the voters. What is your view?

:23:59. > :24:04.Labour will vote against it on the timetabled side. Your colleagues in

:24:04. > :24:08.the House of Commons say they will abstain. If the timetable motion

:24:08. > :24:12.does that get -- does not get through, is at the end of it in

:24:12. > :24:15.your view or will they still struggle on? What does it mean for

:24:15. > :24:20.the other legislative programmes? Any sensible government will say,

:24:20. > :24:25.OK, let us have the bill passed and we will get that agreed quickly.

:24:25. > :24:30.The spill has been drawn up to satisfy the Deputy Prime Minister.

:24:30. > :24:33.-- this bill. Most people will be arranged that the idea of a grubby

:24:33. > :24:38.deal between the Conservatives and liberals, that says that we will

:24:38. > :24:41.give you a permanent control than vote in the House of Lords in

:24:41. > :24:45.return for you agreeing to vote for boundary changes that will give us

:24:45. > :24:50.20 extra seats. That is not the basis upon which to proceed with

:24:50. > :24:54.major constitutional reform. upset will Mr Cameron be if 100 of

:24:54. > :24:59.his troops fought against this? say that there has not been

:24:59. > :25:05.sufficient debate on the idea of reform of the House of Lords is

:25:05. > :25:09.absurd when only back in 2007 we were floating on similar issues. --

:25:09. > :25:12.we were voting. The difference between the previous administration

:25:12. > :25:17.and this one is that we want to move from words to actions. All

:25:17. > :25:21.three parties have clearly pledged to make these reforms. Does that

:25:21. > :25:24.mean, for example, and I notice that the Deputy Prime Minister was

:25:24. > :25:29.saying today that those who make the law should be elected. Of

:25:29. > :25:32.course, the House of Lords does not make any laws, and in the end the

:25:32. > :25:36.House of Commons is the last say. Does the reverse applied which is

:25:36. > :25:39.that if they are elected they are able to make the laws and challenge

:25:39. > :25:43.the House of Commons? Politicians should be elected and people should

:25:43. > :25:47.be able to call them to account. You are not answering my question.

:25:47. > :25:52.Members of the House of Lords are politicians. He were not alone

:25:52. > :25:59.there. Coming back to the question, how are said will Mr Cameron be if

:25:59. > :26:05.there is a rebellion against this? -- how upset. We want to know that

:26:05. > :26:09.we have made the case. So he will be absent? We want to know that we

:26:09. > :26:16.explain to backbenchers like, burns. A does he really care about this?

:26:16. > :26:21.You would have to ask the Prime Minister. So you do not know? In

:26:21. > :26:24.one year's time, will it be through? I think not. If the

:26:24. > :26:29.programmed motion is defeated the country will think, what on earth

:26:29. > :26:35.are the House of Commons doing waiting time on this? We do not one

:26:35. > :26:39.to see the Bill die. I have grave doubts about the management of the

:26:39. > :26:43.Conservatives at the moment. I am far from convinced that 100 people

:26:43. > :26:46.will vote against the programme commotion. They might abstain.

:26:46. > :26:50.do not say that we want reform to die. We think there needs to be

:26:50. > :26:54.serious scrutiny. We will have you back in the weeks ahead.

:26:54. > :27:00.You may have heard that TV history has been made, not by us for a

:27:00. > :27:06.change, but by a contestant on Ant and Dec's new game show who has won

:27:06. > :27:10.a recorded �1.5 million in a prize. The man was said to have burst into

:27:10. > :27:15.tears. Why? Well, of course, it is because the prize he really wanted

:27:15. > :27:21.was something money can buy, the Daily Politics mug. If he is

:27:21. > :27:25.watching, the good news is you have still got a chance. Ant and Dec,

:27:25. > :27:29.well, they enter every week but they always get it wrong.

:27:29. > :27:39.We could not fit that money in the Daily Politics mug!

:27:39. > :27:41.

:27:41. > :27:46.Can you remember when this # We didn't start the fire at...

:27:46. > :27:56.Bitsy Mr me that Islamic fundamentalists could do with a

:27:56. > :28:11.

:28:11. > :28:17.little criticism. # She drives me crazy.

:28:17. > :28:27.# Like no one else. John Major is an excellent man and

:28:27. > :28:32.

:28:32. > :28:42.I've got better things to do than listen to them all day long, to be

:28:42. > :28:49.

:28:49. > :28:52.honest with you. We will just have And to be in with a chance of

:28:52. > :28:58.winning a Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special e-mail

:28:58. > :29:04.address: You can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year

:29:04. > :29:12.on our website. Coming up to midday, let's have a

:29:12. > :29:14.look at Big Ben. I think it is Tower. It can only mean one thing,

:29:14. > :29:19.Prime Minister's Questions is on its way. Nick Robinson is here.

:29:19. > :29:25.Welcome back. I know you had a tough time in Mexico. Someone had

:29:25. > :29:29.to go! Go to a beach in the hot sunshine in Mexico when working

:29:29. > :29:36.days finish at three in the afternoon and I said, "A few

:29:36. > :29:42.forcemeat". We are grateful that he went. -- if you force me. Talk

:29:42. > :29:47.about welfare reform, cuts, hints about a referendum on the UKIP. --

:29:47. > :29:49.on the EU. Can I throw out for discussion that what the Prime

:29:49. > :29:53.Minister is doing right and is more to do with party management and

:29:53. > :29:59.government. Getting the Tory papers back onside after the omnishambles

:29:59. > :30:03.budget, getting the backbenchers onside before the summer, certainly

:30:03. > :30:07.giving Conservatives something to say about what they do, what they

:30:07. > :30:10.would do if they were not in a coalition, but remember, something

:30:10. > :30:15.like welfare reform is popular, at least in theory, with people across

:30:15. > :30:19.the spectrum. I pointed out a poll the other day, 59% of Labour voters

:30:19. > :30:24.said the benefits system was too generous. Yes, he is trying to

:30:24. > :30:28.rebuild support. There was a drop in his poll ratings since the

:30:28. > :30:35.Budget. Yes, he is doing that. Maybe we will get a knighthood for

:30:35. > :30:39.David Beckham? As a matter of principle! And what is your reading,

:30:39. > :30:43.are we in a position yet to know how big the rebellion on the Tory

:30:43. > :30:46.backbenchers will be when it comes to this programmed motion? I don't

:30:46. > :30:51.think we do know the numbers because we do not know what the

:30:51. > :30:54.Bill is yet. We know roughly, but no, I do not think we know the

:30:54. > :31:03.scale. It could be on the referendum. Straight over to the

:31:03. > :31:13.This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and I will

:31:13. > :31:15.

:31:15. > :31:22.have further meetings later today. Isn't it is stupid to vote for

:31:22. > :31:28.House of Lords reform but against the programme motion?

:31:28. > :31:33.I think my honourable friend makes a very important point. We have

:31:33. > :31:37.been discussing this issue for 100 years, and it really is time to

:31:37. > :31:46.make progress. The truth of the matter is this, the Iraqi opponents

:31:46. > :31:51.of Lords reform in every party -- there are opponents. But there is a

:31:51. > :31:54.majority in this House for an elected House of Lords and I

:31:54. > :31:58.believe there is a majority for that in the country. If those who

:31:58. > :32:04.support Lords reform don't get out there and back it it will not

:32:04. > :32:08.happen, that is the crucial point. It is absolutely hopeless in life

:32:08. > :32:11.and in politics to do what the right honourable gentleman is

:32:11. > :32:21.giving which is to say he is in favour of it and also against it,

:32:21. > :32:28.

:32:28. > :32:35.it is hopeless. The Prime Minister said on 11th

:32:35. > :32:45.April, "I will defend every part of that budget, I worked on it very

:32:45. > :32:46.

:32:46. > :32:53.closely with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, line byline." what went

:32:53. > :33:02.wrong? The fuel duty increase was a Labour

:33:03. > :33:11.tax rise. It cannot be a U-turn to get rid of a Labour tax increase.

:33:11. > :33:14.They put in place 12 increases on fuel duty in government, they left

:33:14. > :33:21.behind six increases in fuel duty and I am proud of the fact we are

:33:21. > :33:27.dealing with them. It was all part of a seamless

:33:27. > :33:30.political strategy. And fortunately they forgot to tell the Transport

:33:30. > :33:34.Secretary he went out and defended the increase, they forgot to tell

:33:34. > :33:39.the Cabinet in the morning, though the Chancellor briefed them on the

:33:39. > :33:41.economic situation, and they forgot to tell their own backbone --

:33:42. > :33:47.backbenchers and said about to defend the old policy. Let's call

:33:47. > :33:51.it what it is, another case of panic at the pumps. And a month

:33:51. > :33:58.after month, every time this side of the House has proposed putting

:33:58. > :34:01.more money in people's pockets to get the economy moving, he has

:34:01. > :34:05.denounced the policy as irresponsible. Yesterday the

:34:05. > :34:11.Chancellor said it was about precisely doing that, why doesn't

:34:11. > :34:18.he admitted, plan a has failed? -- admit it.

:34:18. > :34:21.Does he support stopping the fuel increase? Why not get up and

:34:21. > :34:26.congratulate the Government for being on the side of the motorist

:34:26. > :34:30.and the people who work hard and do the right thing. That is he we are

:34:30. > :34:37.helping. I have to say to the right honourable gentleman, every stints

:34:37. > :34:42.we came to office -- ever since we came to office, we have been

:34:42. > :34:45.diffusing the increases. We have diffuse their increases in fuel tax.

:34:45. > :34:51.They should be congratulating us for been on the side of those who

:34:51. > :34:56.work hard and do the right thing. Back to the bunker after that

:34:56. > :35:02.answer. Even on this Government's own measure of success, borrowing

:35:02. > :35:08.went up yesterday. No wonder they want to change the exam system, the

:35:08. > :35:12.Chancellor cannot get the matters right. Can he confirm that the

:35:12. > :35:19.reason this government has had to borrow 3 billion of more, this time

:35:19. > :35:23.last year, tax revenues are down, and the cost of economic failure of

:35:23. > :35:29.going up, and it is all the result of double-dip recession made in

:35:29. > :35:33.Downing Street? So on fuel tax he is against it

:35:33. > :35:40.there he is in favour of it, and on borrowing he thinks it is too high

:35:40. > :35:45.but wants to put it up? I think it is back to school.

:35:45. > :35:55.I know he finds this shadow chancellor irritating, but he

:35:55. > :35:57.

:35:57. > :36:01.called for the fuel duty cut. The reality is, they are not just a

:36:01. > :36:08.economically incompetent, they are unfair as well. He made 60 tense,

:36:08. > :36:14.but not in two particular decisions -- 6 U-turns. The tax for

:36:14. > :36:17.millionaires paid for by the tax rise on pensions. He says he has

:36:17. > :36:22.been lifting to the electorate, what feedback has he had almost

:36:22. > :36:27.proposals? -- listening to. The Shadow Chancellor was the man

:36:27. > :36:31.who put the fuel tax increase into the budget in the first place. What

:36:31. > :36:37.we have been doing is getting rid of Labour's tax increases. It asks

:36:37. > :36:44.me about the top rate of tax, it is wrong to have the top rate of tax

:36:44. > :36:48.higher than France, Germany, Italy. I make this point, for 13 years of

:36:48. > :36:56.a Labour government, in which he said, the top rate of tax was 40p,

:36:56. > :37:00.the top rate of tax will now be 45p. Again, affect you will be in order.

:37:00. > :37:05.He claims to be proud of the weight the decision on the fuel tax was

:37:05. > :37:13.made, the Chancellor had a way yesterday refusing to answer on the

:37:13. > :37:18.decision. -- hid away. No wonder the Chancellor yesterday said that

:37:18. > :37:22.the economic Secretary to do all the interviews. It is no wonder the

:37:22. > :37:27.Member for Mid Bedfordshire said this. I didn't see Newsnight but if

:37:27. > :37:34.Osborne sent clearly on he is a coward as well as arrogant -- said

:37:34. > :37:37.Chloe Smith. There is no change on the tax cut for millionaires.

:37:37. > :37:41.Doesn't the Prime Minister realise what people hate about this

:37:41. > :37:47.government is the double standards of them saying tax avoidance is

:37:47. > :37:52.immoral, but it is OK when so many people are struggling to get by 2

:37:52. > :37:55.1/2 -- give a tax-cut to millionaires -- struggling to get

:37:55. > :38:00.by, to give a tax-cut to millionaires.

:38:00. > :38:07.He says the Chancellor was hiding away. He was announcing this tax

:38:08. > :38:12.reduction from the dispatch box. I know, Mr Speaker, the House of

:38:12. > :38:15.Commons doesn't always get reported, but he was actually here making the

:38:15. > :38:19.announcement and I have to say completely wrong-footing the Shadow

:38:19. > :38:25.Chancellor. What we have heard today from the Leader of the

:38:25. > :38:28.Opposition is a whole series of arguments about process. Process

:38:28. > :38:32.about the House of Lords where he is wrong on the substance, process

:38:32. > :38:37.about the economy where he is wrong on the substance, process about the

:38:38. > :38:42.deficit when he wants to but the borrowing up, absolutely hopeless.

:38:42. > :38:46.It is about an economic plan that is failing and about the unfairness

:38:46. > :38:51.of this government. The unfairness of this government, he talks about

:38:51. > :38:56.the tax affairs of Jimmy Carr, he is giving a tax cut to millionaires

:38:56. > :39:00.of �40,000 per year across this country. Including in his own

:39:00. > :39:10.Cabinet. When it comes to tax it is obviously one rule for the

:39:10. > :39:13.

:39:13. > :39:17.comedians and another role for the comedians in the Cabinet. The Prime

:39:17. > :39:22.Minister has spent the last week blundering into the tax affairs of

:39:22. > :39:25.Jimmy Carr, his budget unravelling, economic plan failing, from the

:39:25. > :39:35.country. Did you it is a shambles, from his point of view it is just

:39:35. > :39:35.

:39:35. > :39:40.another week in the office -- from the country's pointed you.

:39:40. > :39:43.The Prime Minister's answer will be heard.

:39:43. > :39:46.I am not at all surprised the honourable gentleman is touchy

:39:46. > :39:51.about the issue of tax avoidance because to have they just voted to

:39:51. > :39:56.the top of the list of the National Executive Committee, Ken

:39:56. > :40:00.Livingstone. It is this government that is cracking down on aggressive

:40:00. > :40:10.and illegal tax avoidance and tax evasion and it is their party

:40:10. > :40:10.

:40:10. > :40:14.voting for them. Sir Malcolm Bruce. The International Development

:40:14. > :40:18.Committee spent the last week in Afghanistan and would pay tribute

:40:18. > :40:21.to the dedication of our armed forces and civil servants working

:40:22. > :40:25.under difficult conditions but will the Prime Minister at the Tokyo

:40:25. > :40:32.conference next month's reassure the people of Afghanistan although

:40:33. > :40:41.the troupe brought down in 24 team, advice and assistance will be there

:40:41. > :40:45.for years be on that so it can become a functioning state?

:40:45. > :40:49.To date is the day we encourage people who served to wear a uniform

:40:49. > :40:52.to work, not something members of this House could do, but we should

:40:52. > :40:56.remember all those who serve our country, whether in the reserves or

:40:56. > :41:00.the regular forces. On the issue of support for Afghanistan we have

:41:00. > :41:04.already merged we will continue with a generous level of aid and

:41:04. > :41:07.development support we are giving to Afghanistan after 2015, we have

:41:07. > :41:11.very much been leading the charge on that, as well as helping to fund

:41:11. > :41:16.the build-up of the Afghan national security forces between now and

:41:16. > :41:21.2015. Can I ask the Prime Minister what

:41:21. > :41:28.is the moral difference between celebrities avoiding tax, and a

:41:28. > :41:33.Cabinet of millionaires cutting tax to benefit themselves?

:41:33. > :41:36.Perhaps the best way to answer that question is to quote her own leader

:41:36. > :41:40.who said this. At the launch of his local election campaign tax

:41:40. > :41:44.avoidance is a terrible thing, it must be cracked down on. That is

:41:44. > :41:51.what I thought was the official position of the Labour Party, they

:41:52. > :41:55.should be thanking us for getting on and doing just that.

:41:55. > :41:59.In welcoming the decision not to increase fuel duty does the Prime

:41:59. > :42:05.Minister think this shows hard- pressed families and businesses we

:42:05. > :42:08.mean business about refuelling growth?

:42:08. > :42:12.The honourable lady is absolutely right. It is his government that

:42:12. > :42:17.has taken 2 million people out of income back -- it is this

:42:17. > :42:23.government that has taken 2 million people out of income tax. It has

:42:23. > :42:30.repeatedly Delworth fuel duty so it is 10p less than it would be under

:42:30. > :42:34.the plans left to us by the last Labour government. -- repeatedly

:42:34. > :42:38.reduced fuel duty. One way in which the Prime Minister

:42:38. > :42:44.could put an end to the aggressive tax-avoidance schemes is to

:42:44. > :42:48.legislate for a general anti- avoidance, not a general rule, will

:42:48. > :42:55.he make one more U-turn and back up his expression of public outrage

:42:56. > :42:58.with real action and legislate for a general anti-avoidance principle?

:42:58. > :43:01.Legislating on a general anti- avoidance rule is exactly what we

:43:01. > :43:09.are doing, exactly what Labour didn't do for 13 years and they

:43:09. > :43:17.look forward to welcoming him into our division lobbies.

:43:17. > :43:21.Unemployment in my constituency has reduced by 5.7% in the last year.

:43:21. > :43:25.Can this government work to reduce unemployment and make sure we are

:43:25. > :43:34.focusing on that type of things, unlike the other party who have had

:43:34. > :43:40.no solution to the economic issue. What part of a additional growth

:43:40. > :43:43.will come from new businesses? What is this government doing to

:43:43. > :43:47.encourage teaching enterprise in schools to nurture the next

:43:47. > :43:52.generation of entrepreneurs? It is quite clear at the party

:43:52. > :43:57.opposite just want to shout down anyone who wants to talk up what is

:43:57. > :44:00.happening in our economy. The fact is, in the last quarter we saw

:44:00. > :44:05.200,000 new private sector jobs which was more than four times the

:44:05. > :44:09.rate of growth we saw in terms of the decline in the public sector.

:44:10. > :44:13.We are seeing a rebalancing of our economy and intense of small

:44:13. > :44:17.business in 2011 it was a record year for the creation of new small

:44:17. > :44:23.businesses in our country and on the side of the House we are in

:44:23. > :44:26.favour of encouraging that. The coalition agreement stated that

:44:26. > :44:31.the government would introduce a House business committee by the

:44:31. > :44:35.third year of this Parliament, would the Prime Minister confirmed

:44:35. > :44:40.to the House he will introduce it within the next 12 months?

:44:40. > :44:44.We are looking carefully at this issue. Can I just say to the

:44:45. > :44:49.honourable gentleman he served as a minister and a backbench MP,

:44:49. > :44:52.already this government by introducing the backbench business

:44:52. > :44:58.has made one of the most fundamental reform -- reforms of

:44:58. > :45:02.the space. Backbench members are all unable to -- able to determine

:45:02. > :45:12.the time and subject of debate, something that never happened under

:45:12. > :45:15.

:45:15. > :45:19.No. 6, please, Mr Speaker. Gift Aid is an important way to support

:45:19. > :45:22.charitable giving. We know there can be difficulties for charities

:45:22. > :45:26.to collect Gift Aid declarations, for example when they are

:45:26. > :45:30.collecting donations in the street. That is why we are introducing the

:45:30. > :45:34.small donations scheme and the scheme will enable charities to

:45:34. > :45:38.claim a gift style payment of one donations where it has not been

:45:38. > :45:44.possible to collect a declaration. That will help charities in many

:45:44. > :45:49.parts and be welcome on all sides of the House. Community hospitals

:45:49. > :45:53.across Britain benefit greatly through their friends from gift Aid

:45:53. > :45:56.donations. Could the Prime Minister reassure all those who give so

:45:56. > :45:59.generously that the equipment and facilities they fund will be

:45:59. > :46:03.guaranteed to remain for the benefit of local health communities

:46:03. > :46:09.and could I invite him to visit a community hospital in my

:46:09. > :46:12.constituency to see Gift Aid in action? I have visited a community

:46:12. > :46:18.hospital in her constituency while having a holiday in her

:46:18. > :46:23.constituency so why has some experience of the excellent service

:46:23. > :46:25.provided in South Devon. It -- so I have some. Legal friends to a

:46:25. > :46:30.brilliant job across the country and the money they provide for that

:46:30. > :46:35.equipment should remain local. The gift Aid changed that we have

:46:35. > :46:40.announced should help hospitals and people like the ones she refers to.

:46:40. > :46:44.He has not had time to reach a judgement on the tax affairs on

:46:44. > :46:47.Gary Barlow but he has had years to consider those of massive

:46:47. > :46:55.Conservative donor Lord Ashcroft. Are they morally wrong, like Jimmy

:46:55. > :47:00.Carr? Like all members of both Houses of Parliament, all peers

:47:00. > :47:04.have to be full UK taxpayers, that is a change I fully support. While

:47:04. > :47:11.we are on this subject, he may want to have a little look at Labour's

:47:11. > :47:17.chief fund raiser, in man called Andrew Rosenfeld, who between the

:47:17. > :47:27.years of 2006 and 2011, he lived in which key marginal seat? Anyone?

:47:27. > :47:28.

:47:28. > :47:32.Anyone? Zurich. Would my right honourable friend take this

:47:32. > :47:38.opportunity... Order. The honourable gentleman deserves to be

:47:38. > :47:41.heard. There has been too much noise today. It is discourteous.

:47:41. > :47:44.Thank you, Mr Speaker. Would my honourable friend take this

:47:44. > :47:49.opportunity to remind the House that there is a crucial EU summit

:47:49. > :47:55.at the end of this week? Which is more important for UK growth and

:47:55. > :48:01.jobs? The implications of these massive changes or House of Lords

:48:02. > :48:04.reform? Clearly in terms of growth in the UK economy, what is

:48:04. > :48:08.happening in the Eurozone and what is happening in Europe is extremely

:48:08. > :48:12.important and it is a vital summit that is taking place on this

:48:12. > :48:17.Thursday and Friday. The UK government has a clear view which

:48:17. > :48:20.is that Eurozone countries need to do more in the short term to settle

:48:20. > :48:23.the financial instability in the market, but they also need to take

:48:23. > :48:27.Meechan and longer term steps to make sense of the Eurozone. That

:48:27. > :48:31.will involve them sharing greater powers. That is something that the

:48:31. > :48:35.UK should not be involved in. I think we have a clear view. I think

:48:35. > :48:41.we push forward arguments with great vigour and we will protect

:48:42. > :48:49.and defend the economy and political system at the same time.

:48:49. > :48:54.Every hour of every day somebody gets killed by a weapon that has

:48:54. > :48:58.been irresponsibly treated from one country to another. Next week, the

:48:58. > :49:01.arms trade treaty negotiations start in New York. Will the Prime

:49:01. > :49:05.Minister make sure and guarantee that the British delegation will

:49:05. > :49:09.fight for the inclusion in the treaty not only of police and

:49:09. > :49:15.security apparatus that can be used for internal repression but also of

:49:15. > :49:18.ammunition, which is vital. It is bullet that killed. As the

:49:18. > :49:22.honourable gentleman knows, we backed the arms trade treaty and

:49:22. > :49:27.have done for a considerable amount of time. We lobbied vigorously on

:49:27. > :49:35.that issue. I will look at the specific point and write to him.

:49:35. > :49:40.Friday night, three times in my a area were subject to flooding when

:49:40. > :49:43.two rivers broke their banks at the same time. Would my right

:49:43. > :49:46.honourable friend to join me in congratulating the emergency

:49:46. > :49:49.services for working through the night and particularly the

:49:49. > :49:53.residents of Crawshawbooth who came out in the morning to clean up the

:49:53. > :49:59.village show it was able to welcomed the Olympic torch 12 hours

:49:59. > :50:04.later? -- so it was able. I joined my honourable friend embracing the

:50:04. > :50:10.emergency services. These were dangerous and damaging floods, cos

:50:10. > :50:14.by rainfall over a short period time. Emergency services performed

:50:14. > :50:18.admirably. Now we're in the recovery phase where people start

:50:18. > :50:21.to look at going back into their homes. There will be questions

:50:21. > :50:26.about insurance and how we can help. I'm sure he will make these

:50:27. > :50:31.arguments and the Government will do all it can to help. Will the

:50:31. > :50:36.Prime Minister finally answer the question why this year to date his

:50:36. > :50:42.government have actually borrowed �3.9 billion more than they did

:50:42. > :50:47.this time last year? The deficit that he left and his party left,

:50:47. > :50:56.the deficit is down by a quarter. The policy that he supports is to

:50:56. > :51:02.spend more, to borrow more and put the debt up even further. Godwin

:51:02. > :51:08.Lawson, 17, from Enfield was tragically stabbed to death in 2010.

:51:08. > :51:13.Since then, his mother has become a powerful force for challenging the

:51:13. > :51:20.culture of knife crime. By sharing her experiences of her son's death

:51:20. > :51:23.with young people. Like many on the front line of knife crime, she can

:51:23. > :51:26.make an extraordinary contribution to challenging this culture but

:51:27. > :51:30.some authorities are not yet getting behind supporting and

:51:30. > :51:35.offering some funding to achieve this. Would the Prime Minister lent

:51:35. > :51:43.his support and encouragement to those people to get behind the

:51:43. > :51:47.issue? I were a certain the day of my support to Mrs Laursen and those

:51:47. > :51:51.others playing such a heroic role in changing the culture of knife

:51:51. > :51:55.crime in our country. It is worth remembering that this year, Ben

:51:55. > :51:59.Kinsella would have been 21. I pay tribute to Brooke Kinsella and all

:51:59. > :52:04.the families who, in many ways it would be easier for them to turn

:52:04. > :52:06.away from the tragedy that robbed them of their family members, but

:52:06. > :52:10.instead they campaign and show immense bravery, raising the

:52:10. > :52:13.profile of this issue. The Government must play its part by

:52:14. > :52:20.making sure there are mandatory sentences and we who are and have

:52:20. > :52:24.done that. -- and we have done that. Frankly, the bravery of those who

:52:24. > :52:30.have lost loved ones talking about it in schools can play a huge role

:52:30. > :52:34.in changing the culture. The Prime Minister will be aware of the

:52:34. > :52:39.horrific explosion that occurred in my constituency yesterday. I am

:52:39. > :52:45.sure the whole House will want to pay tribute and mourn the death of

:52:45. > :52:51.the two-year-old, and would want to send best wishes to the burns

:52:51. > :52:55.victim as well. Would he join me in paying tribute to the work of the

:52:55. > :52:58.emergency services that attended the event, which I witnessed first

:52:58. > :53:02.hand, and also be contingency Red Cross service. Will he agree that

:53:02. > :53:07.we should never take for granted the courage and bravery of our

:53:07. > :53:10.servicemen and women? I think the honourable lady is right to Speaker

:53:10. > :53:14.she does and a house will want to send a message of sympathy and

:53:14. > :53:17.condolences to the family of that poor child. And also our best

:53:17. > :53:22.wishes to the burns victim who is in hospital being treated at the

:53:22. > :53:26.moment. The scenes were quite appalling to see on our televisions.

:53:26. > :53:29.I certainly join her in paying tribute to the emergency services

:53:29. > :53:33.and also wish all speed to the police to get to the bottom of

:53:33. > :53:40.anything that might have happened here. Everyone will require answers

:53:40. > :53:45.to what has been an absolute charge today. -- absolute tragedy. The

:53:45. > :53:51.flood victims Facebook Page and the just giving page shows great giving

:53:51. > :53:56.spirit. Also events going ahead this weekend shows the community is

:53:56. > :54:00.resilient. Also, it shows that my constituency is open for village --

:54:00. > :54:03.for business. Can my honourable friend update our flooded

:54:03. > :54:08.communities on how negotiations are going with the insurance industry

:54:08. > :54:12.so that they can get insurance in the future at a reasonable price?

:54:12. > :54:17.understand why my friend Mike wants to raise this issue. I believe

:54:18. > :54:21.there were over 550 properties -- 550 properties affected by these

:54:21. > :54:26.damaging floods in his constituency. On the issue of flood insurance we

:54:26. > :54:31.will work hard with the industry to deliver widely available and

:54:31. > :54:37.affordable household insurance in flood rest -- areas at risk from

:54:37. > :54:39.flood. Having suffered as my constituency supper in 2007, while

:54:40. > :54:43.the recovery is extremely difficult, the resilience of communities and

:54:43. > :54:50.the amount of public and community service that comes out of our

:54:50. > :54:54.communities is remarkable. 20 years ago this week, the

:54:54. > :54:58.Ravenscraig steelworks in my constituency was closed. Thousands

:54:58. > :55:03.of steelmaking jobs were lost and sadly many of my former steel

:55:03. > :55:07.making colleagues never found work again. 20 years on, will the Prime

:55:07. > :55:12.Minister apologise for his party's shameful role in the demise of the

:55:12. > :55:15.Scottish steel industry? I'm sorry for every job that has been lost in

:55:15. > :55:19.manufacturing or very very long period of time but what I would say

:55:19. > :55:23.is that while manufacturing as a share of the economy almost halved

:55:23. > :55:26.under the last government, that share is now increasing and in

:55:26. > :55:29.terms of the steel industry, I think it is worth recognising that

:55:29. > :55:35.under this Government, the steel industry has started again on

:55:35. > :55:40.Teesside and that is something the House should a plot.

:55:40. > :55:44.-- should applaud. Hereford is the home of the SAS and July 19th will

:55:44. > :55:51.be the 40th anniversary of the battle in which nine SAS soldiers

:55:51. > :55:56.fought off more than 300 heavily armed guerrillas. During the battle,

:55:56. > :56:01.one individual was shot while operating a 25 pound field gun, a

:56:01. > :56:03.weapon designed for a six-man team. Successive governments have

:56:03. > :56:08.declined to recognise the extraordinary nature of his

:56:08. > :56:13.sacrifice. The SAS have minnies -- have many heroes but will the Prime

:56:13. > :56:19.Minister gave his support to the campaign to get the Sergeant

:56:19. > :56:23.awarded the posture Ms Victoria Cross that he so clearly earned?

:56:23. > :56:29.think my honourable friend is right to speak up for the ICS. --

:56:29. > :56:32.posthumous Victoria Cross. We are not allowed to speak much about

:56:32. > :56:35.what they do on the record, but it is worth putting on the record the

:56:35. > :56:39.immense gratitude of all government and the entire British people to

:56:39. > :56:44.the risks they take on our behalf. Thinking of the hostage rescue, I

:56:44. > :56:47.would like to do that personally. In terms of the question that he

:56:47. > :56:51.asks, I do not think these sorts of decisions are for politicians to

:56:51. > :56:58.make but let me pay tribute to the heroic actions of Batman and

:56:58. > :57:03.everyone involved on that day. -- heroic actions of that man.

:57:03. > :57:07.Is the Prime Minister bringing back all levels? What the Education

:57:07. > :57:13.Secretary explained in detail yesterday is that we want to have

:57:13. > :57:17.an absolute gold standard of exams in our country that are about

:57:17. > :57:21.rigour and high standards. The tragedy is that what we inherited

:57:21. > :57:25.from the last government was a system that was being progressively

:57:25. > :57:30.dumbed down, where Britain was falling down the league tables and

:57:30. > :57:35.GCSE questions included things like "How do you see the moon? Through a

:57:35. > :57:42.telescope or a microscope?" On this side of the House, we believe we

:57:42. > :57:45.need a rigorous system. exciting space science and

:57:45. > :57:50.technology park in my constituency richly deserves the conditional

:57:50. > :57:55.regional growth fund approval which will secure a vital job -- vital

:57:55. > :57:59.jobs and inward investment into the UK and also harmonise with the

:57:59. > :58:04.Government's own welcome and critical commitment to space growth,

:58:04. > :58:08.will be Prime Minister please use his influence to ensure that there

:58:08. > :58:12.is no further of for a double delay in implementation of the grant and

:58:12. > :58:17.the launch of this critical important enterprise? I will look

:58:17. > :58:21.carefully at what my honourable friend says. 60% of regional growth

:58:21. > :58:24.fund projects are now underway. The money has been distributed in many

:58:24. > :58:29.cases but I will look specifically at this project which sounds

:58:29. > :58:32.interesting and worthwhile involving radio astronomy and

:58:32. > :58:35.Satellite Management. These are hi- tech jobs for Cornwall and I know

:58:35. > :58:41.that is something that Cornwall needs. I will do my best to make

:58:41. > :58:49.sure that happens. One third of health care trust

:58:49. > :58:52.deficit in my region is due to the wrong to suggest the entire deficit

:58:52. > :58:55.is due to the PFI? Should not be working to deal with that situation

:58:55. > :59:01.rather than imposing out stride administrators to cut local health

:59:01. > :59:04.services? -- outside administrators. First of all, it is his government

:59:04. > :59:08.to is putting more money into the NHS this year, next year and the

:59:08. > :59:12.year after. Some of these NHS trusts like the one he mentions

:59:12. > :59:19.have enormous deficits and a large part of that is down to the

:59:19. > :59:24.completely failed PFIs systems that the last government put in place. -

:59:24. > :59:29.- PFIs systems. Hospitals up and down the country, it costs �120 to

:59:29. > :59:33.reset and alarm, �466 to replace a light fitting. They're shouting

:59:33. > :59:40.that these were conservative PFIs but they were not. Everyone was put

:59:40. > :59:45.in place under a Labour government. Yet again, time for a apology.

:59:45. > :59:52.-- an apology. Does the Prime Minister agree that the way to

:59:52. > :59:58.tackle aggressive tax avoidance is to bring in flatter, fairer taxes?

:59:58. > :00:01.I certainly support flatter, fairer taxes and that is why we have a --

:00:02. > :00:05.we have 2 million people taking out of income tax, a Laura Trott rate

:00:05. > :00:09.of tax to make us competitive with the rest of the world. It is

:00:09. > :00:14.important to put this on the record. Tax evasion is a legal and wrong

:00:14. > :00:17.and should be chased down but as the Chancellor has sent, some of

:00:17. > :00:22.the tax avoidance schemes that have been put in place in recent years

:00:22. > :00:27.are, in my view, very questionable, and the government should declare

:00:27. > :00:37.that the Revenue's' task is to close those down and make sure that

:00:37. > :00:39.In December last year this House passed a motion calling for a bill

:00:39. > :00:43.to make urgent reforms to our deeply unfair extradition treaties.

:00:43. > :00:46.Seven months later, there is still no bill and no action. What makes

:00:46. > :00:52.the Prime Minister more uncomfortable, ignoring the will of

:00:52. > :00:56.the House for months on end or the plight of those facing imminent

:00:56. > :00:59.extradition? We held the Scott Baker review and it looked

:00:59. > :01:02.carefully at extradition arrangements. I would urge the

:01:02. > :01:06.honourable lady to look at the cases that are causing concern but

:01:07. > :01:10.also at the overall figures, where we are benefiting by being able to

:01:10. > :01:14.extradite people that committed serious crimes from the US back

:01:14. > :01:21.into the UK. We continue to look at this and we will do the right thing

:01:21. > :01:26.for our country, but do not think it is a simple issue. It is not.

:01:26. > :01:31.Would the Prime Minister congratulate the excellent

:01:31. > :01:36.Secretary of State for International Development for

:01:36. > :01:43.producing a flag that will replace the European Union's logo on all

:01:43. > :01:47.our overseas aid? He should be thoroughly congratulated. I am sure

:01:47. > :01:52.that like myself, my honourable friend and indeed probably Mrs Ben,

:01:52. > :01:55.we got the dear colleague letter with this excellent new logo. It

:01:55. > :02:00.shows that the aid that we send is not on behalf of the British

:02:00. > :02:02.Government. It is on behalf of all of the British people, who I think

:02:03. > :02:05.support the fact that Britain stands for something in the world

:02:05. > :02:15.and stands up for helping the poorest in our world even when we

:02:15. > :02:16.

:02:16. > :02:19.have a difficult time in our own PMQs comes to an end on time this

:02:20. > :02:28.week! That is why we are slightly discombobulated with no idea what

:02:28. > :02:30.to say. That will be a first! we do. Mr Miliband went strongly on

:02:30. > :02:35.the latest U-turn on the fuel crisis, adding together all the

:02:35. > :02:38.previous ones and going on the economy. Mr Cameron pretty much on

:02:38. > :02:43.the back foot a number of times on that as the Labour leader went on

:02:43. > :02:48.the offensive. We will analyse that in a moment, but what did you think

:02:48. > :02:52.first? There were emails on fuel duty and House of Lords reform.

:02:52. > :02:55.Another poor week from Mr Cameron. Mr Miliband had an open goal on the

:02:55. > :02:59.shambles of the Budget and hammered the ball firmly into the back of

:02:59. > :03:05.the Tory net. I would imagine for Mr Cameron the summer recess cannot

:03:05. > :03:10.come soon enough. And this, a good performance from Ed Miliband with

:03:10. > :03:14.David Cameron on the back foot. We need economic growth in the UK to

:03:14. > :03:17.re-establish their credibility. But this from George in Dudley. Ed

:03:17. > :03:25.Miliband is pathetic, tried to pretend that Labour are the friends

:03:25. > :03:31.of the taxpayer, what rubbish. I don't recall Ed Miliband and Ed

:03:31. > :03:35.Balls as rushing to demand the 50p tax rule as unfair. And this,

:03:35. > :03:39.instead of points scorer across the despatch box, can Ed Miliband

:03:39. > :03:49.please tell the electorate what is planned for the economy is? Perhaps

:03:49. > :03:52.

:03:52. > :03:56.that is not the place where he would do that. Our MPs are elected

:03:56. > :04:01.and do not have the history of blowing morality so be careful what

:04:01. > :04:11.you wish for. I am awful careful of what I wish for and I hardly wish

:04:11. > :04:20.for anything! Almost every week now, some part of the Budget and raffles,

:04:20. > :04:25.does a U-turn. -- unravels. We keep waiting for things to turn, to go

:04:25. > :04:29.the Government's Way again, but it seems to meet that this could

:04:29. > :04:32.continue to the summer recess and it cannot come soon enough. The day

:04:32. > :04:36.after announcing something that is hugely popular, giving people some

:04:36. > :04:40.money back, giving motorists that of feeling hard pressed some money

:04:40. > :04:44.back, the Prime Minister is on the back foot. Good jokes from Mr

:04:44. > :04:48.Miliband, panic at the pumps and so on. Good performance from the

:04:49. > :04:52.Labour leader. But he has got two open goals that he is scoring in

:04:52. > :04:58.today. On the one hand, he can say it is a shambolic, Government that

:04:58. > :05:01.does not know what it is doing, changing its mind. And on the other

:05:01. > :05:06.hand, he is able, less successfully, but making some progress and he

:05:06. > :05:09.will be pleased with that, to say that this indicates that you

:05:09. > :05:13.economic plan is not working because borrowing is up and yet you

:05:13. > :05:16.are spending money, which is what Labour argued. It is quite bad news

:05:16. > :05:20.for a Government when you are doing something that most people want you

:05:20. > :05:28.to do but then one day later people are watching you struggle a bit.

:05:28. > :05:32.There is a problem for the coalition. It is timing. When this

:05:32. > :05:37.coalition had its first Budget in June of 2010, it said we need five

:05:37. > :05:40.years to sort out the deficit. Then by the pre-Budget statement in

:05:40. > :05:45.November of last year, the Chancellor said that he needed

:05:45. > :05:49.another two, so seven. Since then we have had both the Governor of

:05:49. > :05:54.the Bank of England and the Chief Secretary to the Cabinet saying

:05:54. > :05:58.that actually it could take a decade, to 2020. The problem for

:05:58. > :06:02.the coalition at the moment is that it is austerity for the foreseeable

:06:02. > :06:07.future. I do not think you can underestimate the size of the

:06:07. > :06:10.problem that we have inherited here. I think that the fact that we have

:06:10. > :06:13.to take the sort of actions that we are taking is absolutely right. I

:06:13. > :06:18.think that is what people in the country respect, Government taking

:06:18. > :06:21.tough decisions. But you did underestimated. You said it would

:06:21. > :06:29.be five years and now you have changed it to seven and there is

:06:29. > :06:34.talk from the Cabinet that it could be 10. So you did underestimate it

:06:34. > :06:38.or you made it was. What we have got to do now is make sure the

:06:38. > :06:42.right plans are in place to get spending under control. You say you

:06:42. > :06:48.want to get spending under control. How much have you borrowed in this

:06:48. > :06:52.financial year so far? Well, ultimately... How much have you

:06:52. > :06:57.borrowed so far? What we have got to do is make sure that borrowing

:06:57. > :07:02.is going down. So how much have you borrowed so far this year? What we

:07:02. > :07:05.have done is cut the deficit by a quarter. No, you have cut last

:07:05. > :07:12.year's deficit by a quarter compared to the year before. So far

:07:12. > :07:18.this year you have borrowed �31 billion. That is �6.2 billion more

:07:18. > :07:22.than you borrowed in April and May of the last financial year. So far

:07:22. > :07:28.in this financial year you are not cutting the deficit at all. You are

:07:28. > :07:33.actually borrowing more. Let's look at Labour's response to that.

:07:33. > :07:38.and so my point. I will come to Labour in a minute. -- answer my

:07:39. > :07:41.point. One of the main drivers his welfare. And one of the reasons

:07:41. > :07:45.that welfare reforms are so important is to get the debt down

:07:45. > :07:49.in the long term and cut the deficit in the short term. If you

:07:49. > :07:53.are allowed to cut the deficit, then why is it the deficit rising

:07:53. > :07:58.in this financial year? The deficit is still a continuing problem

:07:58. > :08:02.because of the scale of the problem that we inherited. But you are

:08:02. > :08:07.adding more. You are borrowing a lot more than they borrowed. What

:08:07. > :08:10.we are trying to do, in tandem with the problems that we have inherited,

:08:11. > :08:14.is to cut things like the welfare bill, to make sure that we have a

:08:14. > :08:18.proper system in place. Remember that under the last Government

:08:18. > :08:22.welfare increased by 50%. These are the sorts of things that do not

:08:22. > :08:26.take 24 months to turn around, but much longer than that. I will ask

:08:26. > :08:29.you one more time. If your aim is to cut the deficit, the central

:08:29. > :08:34.plank of the coalition, why is borrowing rising in this financial

:08:34. > :08:38.year? Because we need to make sure that we are giving even more to get

:08:38. > :08:44.spending under control. The basic economics are there. So why is

:08:44. > :08:48.current spending up 3.7% year on year if you are trying to cut

:08:48. > :08:52.spending? Why is it up by 3.7%? know the answer is that we have to

:08:52. > :08:58.wait for the reforms that we have put in place to really make a

:08:58. > :09:02.difference to the sort of bills that we are getting through. 50%

:09:02. > :09:07.increase in welfare reform. But why is Labour on that? They talk a good

:09:07. > :09:10.talk but they are not actually supporting reductions in spending.

:09:10. > :09:15.The difficulty that even Labour would face is not just that we are

:09:15. > :09:18.where we are, but the eurozone looks like being a permanent drag

:09:18. > :09:23.on the world economy, including Britain, for the foreseeable future.

:09:23. > :09:26.We have another summit this week. We know it is going to do nothing

:09:27. > :09:30.to meet the immediate demands. We can talk about fiscal union in the

:09:31. > :09:35.years to come, even a federal Europe in 10 years' time, but as

:09:35. > :09:38.long as a eurozone fails to get its act together and resolve the

:09:38. > :09:42.situation, it is a permanent drag on the British economy, the

:09:42. > :09:46.American economy, even the Chinese and Indian economies which are now

:09:46. > :09:49.in trouble. Of course the eurozone will have an impact on the British

:09:49. > :09:53.economy but it is simply not credible for the Government to

:09:53. > :10:00.explain the fact that Britain is in a double-dip recession with an

:10:00. > :10:03.attribution to the eurozone. It was emergency Budget of George Osborne

:10:03. > :10:08.in 2010 which we argued, and there is accumulating evidence for this,

:10:08. > :10:12.that choked of economic growth at a critical point. It is also when the

:10:12. > :10:15.eurozone crisis really kicked off. But if you look at where the

:10:15. > :10:19.economy was benefiting in terms of the stagnation that we have

:10:19. > :10:22.witnessed, it was relying on exports to the eurozone during that

:10:22. > :10:26.year even when stagnation was happening. The central point is

:10:26. > :10:30.this. I believe the reason that we have seen extra borrowing from the

:10:30. > :10:33.Conservatives, the fact that borrowing was higher yesterday, is

:10:33. > :10:36.because the central economic judgment of George Osborne in 2010

:10:36. > :10:42.was that he could cut this deep this quickly and sustain aggregate

:10:42. > :10:46.demand in the economy. But he has not cut. He believed the private

:10:46. > :10:50.sector would pick up. What he has done is choked off the recovery.

:10:50. > :10:55.Hang on. How much as public spending been cut since 2010?

:10:55. > :10:59.is the question that you should ask Maria. I am asking you because you

:10:59. > :11:09.said he has cut too much. reason borrowing is increasing is

:11:09. > :11:10.

:11:10. > :11:15.because so Ireland when it goes up, so the costs go up. -- because when

:11:15. > :11:19.unemployment goes up. The tell me how much he has cut. We are in the

:11:19. > :11:25.worst of all worlds where we do not have the growth in the economy or

:11:25. > :11:29.the borrowing figures being delivered. You said the Chancellor

:11:29. > :11:38.has cut too much and that is why we are in a double-dip recession. If

:11:38. > :11:40.he has cut too much, you must know cutting �20 billion out of the

:11:40. > :11:45.welfare budget. Overall. In terms of what their policy is at the

:11:45. > :11:50.moment? How much is it down compared to 2010? Shall I tell you?

:11:50. > :11:54.The economy is stagnating. It is 0.8%. That cannot explain a double-

:11:54. > :11:59.dip recession. How would you explain a double-dip recession?

:11:59. > :12:02.whole host of other reasons that is only part of that. That is for you

:12:02. > :12:06.to decide. While we have been arguing, historic pictures have

:12:06. > :12:11.come into the BBC. Let's go to Belfast, to Northern Ireland, where

:12:11. > :12:14.we can see the Queen with the Duke of Edinburgh behind, shaking hands.

:12:14. > :12:19.First of all were the first minister, and then a handshake that

:12:19. > :12:26.the world will be watching. Martin McGuinness shaking hands with the

:12:26. > :12:31.head of state of the United Kingdom. And just as significant, as you saw,

:12:31. > :12:38.the Duke of Edinburgh shaking hands with Martin McGuinness. Of course

:12:38. > :12:43.it was Helmand batten, his cousin, who was killed by an IRA bomb. --

:12:43. > :12:46.Lord Mount Batten. Reaction? I was thinking how can I explain that to

:12:47. > :12:53.my children? You hear on the television that Martin McGuinness

:12:53. > :12:57.was associated with the IRA, terrorist group, but not often. I

:12:57. > :13:03.bumped into John Reid here. He told me that the way he does it is this.

:13:03. > :13:11.3500 people died on both sides of the Northern Irish Troubles, what a

:13:11. > :13:15.euphemism one --.. If that was in Britain it would be 20,000 people

:13:15. > :13:20.and in the USA it would be half a million and she has shaken the hand

:13:20. > :13:23.of somebody that justified that violence. I think her conduct is

:13:23. > :13:26.exemplary. The distinction and a class with which she conducts

:13:26. > :13:34.itself, we should be very proud because it cannot have been an easy

:13:34. > :13:38.murmured. I think respect goes out to her as an individual who can put

:13:38. > :13:41.aside their private situation and be able to lead what is an

:13:41. > :13:44.important part of the process to get to a better place in Northern

:13:45. > :13:54.Ireland. Well, there we are. Historic

:13:54. > :13:57.pictures going round the world, and they will be in every news cast for

:13:57. > :14:00.quite some time. It is the fact that those that were

:14:00. > :14:05.privately educated are disproportionately represented in

:14:05. > :14:09.positions of power, just look at politics and the media. That has

:14:09. > :14:19.got one public schoolboy hot under the collar. He says that all

:14:19. > :14:29.

:14:30. > :14:39.private schools should be set down. It gives you a brilliant education.

:14:40. > :14:42.

:14:42. > :14:44.A host of opportunities. And above all, confidence. The kind of

:14:44. > :14:50.confidence that you need to stand in front of a camera and tell

:14:50. > :14:53.everybody else what to think. It seems to me terribly unfair that so

:14:53. > :15:03.many of the places at Oxford go to children that have been to private

:15:03. > :15:11.

:15:12. > :15:16.school. I should know. I was one of I was a bright kid. I got a

:15:16. > :15:20.scholarship. I might have got in, even if I had been to state school,

:15:20. > :15:24.but the chances were lower. It is hardly surprising when you see that

:15:24. > :15:32.the private schools have so much more money to spend, smaller class

:15:32. > :15:35.sizes and a catchment area largely composed of pushy parents.

:15:35. > :15:39.These schools or obstruct social mobility. They segregate society,

:15:39. > :15:43.making it harder for the most powerful class to empathise with

:15:44. > :15:47.the needs of others. And they ensure that those powerful people

:15:47. > :15:53.have no stake in the state system so they have no qualms about seeing

:15:53. > :15:57.it cut. Private schools are a social menace.

:15:57. > :16:01.If you believe in the idea of equality of opportunity, in the

:16:01. > :16:05.notion of a meritocracy, if you do not want to see so many people's

:16:05. > :16:12.talent being wasted, I hope he will agree with me that they should be

:16:12. > :16:15.shut down. -- I hope you will agree.

:16:15. > :16:19.And George Monbiot is off his bike and in the studio. Before we come

:16:19. > :16:24.to you, both of you were educated at state school. Is it much more

:16:24. > :16:29.difficult to make it? You have not done badly. I also did not go to

:16:29. > :16:34.Oxford or Cambridge. But you have succeeded. I absolutely. I think

:16:34. > :16:37.the challenge that the Government and Michael Gove are grappling with

:16:37. > :16:41.is how do we make sure that the state system does what it should

:16:41. > :16:44.have done. How do we make sure that children are taking the sorts of

:16:44. > :16:49.subjects that would give them the opportunities to go to the best

:16:49. > :16:52.universities? The problem we have is that half of children have not

:16:52. > :16:57.been taking core academic subject and have not had the opportunity to

:16:57. > :17:00.go to the best universities. We should be tackling those problems.

:17:00. > :17:04.I know that George feels so strongly about those issues of

:17:04. > :17:08.social mobility. I went to a comprehensive in Renfrewshire and

:17:08. > :17:12.frankly there are too few kids from that kind of background getting in,

:17:12. > :17:16.not just to Oxford and Cambridge but to other institutions. There

:17:16. > :17:20.can be no grounds for complacency. I am not convinced that what

:17:20. > :17:25.Michael Gove leaked, the idea of a two-tier system of exams, is a

:17:25. > :17:29.necessary sign of progress. I am worried about it. George Monbiot is

:17:29. > :17:35.suggesting getting rid of private schools. Would that help state

:17:35. > :17:39.school pupils get to top universities? My motivation is

:17:39. > :17:43.dealing with the 93% that go to state schools as a priority, rather

:17:43. > :17:49.than the 7% that go to private schools. Get rid of them to? They

:17:49. > :17:53.have an obligation to fulfil the charitable status. Some of them do

:17:53. > :17:57.that. I am not convinced that they all do but the priority has to be

:17:57. > :18:01.the 93% who want to see better opportunities for state-educated

:18:01. > :18:05.kits. They do not need to get rid of private schools to do it. I do

:18:05. > :18:09.not expect progress of policies from the Labour Party any more. One

:18:09. > :18:12.of the reasons why opportunities a truncated for state school kids is

:18:12. > :18:16.that state schools are not given the resources and political cloud

:18:16. > :18:21.behind them that they need and that is partly because the richest and

:18:21. > :18:25.most powerful people in society can opt out. They do not care what

:18:25. > :18:28.happens to state schools. It is in their interests that the state

:18:28. > :18:33.schools get worse so that their children do better by comparison.

:18:33. > :18:37.You have a segregated society which keeps state -- keeps say -- keeps

:18:37. > :18:40.state schools down. What do you think? Look at the facts. In the

:18:40. > :18:49.last decade, Britain has fallen in terms of its delivery of good

:18:49. > :18:57.quality students. In maths, we have slipped from eight for two 28th.

:18:57. > :19:01.Let's focus on what's important. Does it not reinforce the need to

:19:01. > :19:05.improve the quality of our schools? That is what I'm arguing. One of

:19:05. > :19:08.the factors that makes sure that we are not putting the effort and

:19:08. > :19:11.resources into improving quality is that people, particularly those who

:19:11. > :19:18.populate the Conservative Party but also quite a few in the Labour

:19:18. > :19:21.Party, Bushey, powerful rich parents in general, have absolutely

:19:21. > :19:25.no interest in seeing state schools improved and seeing the quality

:19:25. > :19:28.rising. Because they have opted out of that system. You do not have to

:19:28. > :19:32.say that it is something you would like to see but is very

:19:32. > :19:34.correlation? If you got rid of private schools, would the

:19:34. > :19:39.standards automatically improve in state schools could that of course

:19:39. > :19:42.not. There is no way that could happen. It would not be automatic.

:19:42. > :19:47.The parents would make sure that they improve because they would go

:19:47. > :19:51.berserk if the quality was too low. You have benefited from a fantastic

:19:51. > :19:55.education. He went to a marvellous goal but you want to deprive others.

:19:55. > :20:02.You cannot win in this one because if he did not know -- if you did

:20:02. > :20:05.not go, it is the politics of envy and if you'd did go, it is the

:20:05. > :20:09.politics of the drawbridge. Everyone is disqualified! You have

:20:09. > :20:17.compared the number of people that go to state schools and end up to -

:20:17. > :20:19.- end up at Oxford and Cambridge, but 59% of students at Oxford and

:20:19. > :20:23.Cambridge were from state schools, better than in my day. It is better

:20:23. > :20:27.but it means that 42% are going to private school pupils to make up

:20:27. > :20:31.only 7% of the population which is grossly disproportionate. Surely we

:20:31. > :20:36.should try to make sure that those children get that opportunity by

:20:36. > :20:45.making sure they have the right opportunities. I went to Edinburgh

:20:45. > :20:55.University. I think Scotland had four of the ancient universities in

:20:55. > :20:55.

:20:55. > :20:59.400 years. Before you get too pious... Here we go! Before we had

:20:59. > :21:02.the Act of Union cast asunder! would you do it? Let's say the

:21:02. > :21:07.politicians said it's a wonderful idea, how do you dismantle the

:21:07. > :21:12.system? Takeaway charitable status. Basically the rest of us are

:21:12. > :21:15.effectively subsidising a system that helps almost entirely the

:21:15. > :21:20.children of the very rich. And to have charitable status for that is,

:21:20. > :21:25.I think, completely wrong. The second thing, do what governments

:21:25. > :21:29.do and legislate. Governments have given up legislating, but in

:21:29. > :21:35.principle, that is what they used to do. The European Convention on

:21:35. > :21:39.Human Rights say that parents have the right to choose their

:21:39. > :21:43.children's' -- children's education base of philosophical beliefs.

:21:43. > :21:48.the size of the wallet. I can see it being a possibility within that

:21:48. > :21:51.range. There is another way of approaching it which is Peter

:21:51. > :21:54.Wilby's solution, which is that instead of the current selection

:21:54. > :21:58.process, you say that the top universities will take the top

:21:58. > :22:04.pupils from every school, regardless of their absolute greats.

:22:05. > :22:07.At a stroke, that gets away from the motivation for private schools,

:22:07. > :22:12.because pushy parents are going to want to have their children

:22:12. > :22:16.distributed as widely as possible. Interesting idea? I think we need

:22:16. > :22:19.to open the closed circle of privilege at the top of British

:22:19. > :22:23.society. Joking aside, Andrew made a powerful television programme

:22:23. > :22:27.about this which revealed the fact that some of the points that George

:22:27. > :22:29.has been making, that it is to close at the moment. I remain of

:22:29. > :22:33.the view philosophically and practically that the priority has

:22:33. > :22:36.to be to give the best opportunities to kids from ordinary

:22:36. > :22:40.backgrounds but that does not preclude the responsibility of

:22:40. > :22:46.universities and companies in leading institutions, to cast their

:22:46. > :22:51.door wider than they have been. George Monbiot, thank you very much.

:22:51. > :22:56.He has a clip of our favourite TV programme.

:22:56. > :23:01.This moves around us in a regular orbit. In one month, why is it not

:23:01. > :23:04.back here. The next is one -- the next one is not for four years.

:23:05. > :23:08.is a simplistic model. You think it would pass the same place every

:23:08. > :23:13.month but it does not. The reason is because the moon's orbit is

:23:13. > :23:16.inclined. We're more used to seeing particle physicist Professor Brian

:23:16. > :23:19.Cox and comedian Dara O'Briain telling us about the night sky. But

:23:19. > :23:23.earlier today they left their telescopes at home to deliver a

:23:23. > :23:26.petition to Downing Street. The subject, the defamation Bill

:23:27. > :23:30.currently going through Parliament. They believe the Bill does not go

:23:30. > :23:35.far enough in protecting our freedom to have opened, scientific

:23:35. > :23:41.and political debate. They argue that the Defamation Bill needs a

:23:41. > :23:44.proper public interest defence and a bar or on corporations suing

:23:44. > :23:49.individuals for libel. Recent high- profile cases have included the

:23:49. > :23:53.author Simon Singh, sued by the British chiropractic Association

:23:53. > :24:00.for questioning the evidence that their methods can help treat child

:24:00. > :24:03.disorders. And then go Oldaker, the "Bad science" Guardian journalist

:24:03. > :24:10.was sued by a vitamin salesman for criticising his promotion of

:24:11. > :24:15.vitamins to treat HIV and Aids. -- Ben Paul Dacre. Brian Cox has hot-

:24:15. > :24:20.footed it from Downing Street. He joins us. What is wrong with the

:24:20. > :24:25.bill as currently constituted? you say, it is important that this

:24:25. > :24:28.bill is there and it has a cross- party support. It is recognised

:24:28. > :24:35.that there is a problem. This Bill goes part of the way to addressing

:24:35. > :24:40.the problem but our test, these high profile cases, our test was

:24:40. > :24:43.would these bill -- would they still have prevented those cases

:24:43. > :24:49.going to court? And our legal device -- hour legal advice says

:24:49. > :24:52.know it would not have. One reason, you mentioned Ben Paul Dacre's case,

:24:52. > :24:57.he spoke to Parliament earlier and pointed out that although he won,

:24:57. > :25:02.the Guardian was left with a bill of over �100,000. Even to fight

:25:02. > :25:04.that case, you need a lot of money. Your argument is that the

:25:04. > :25:10.corporations have been using these laws and could still under the

:25:10. > :25:15.changes, to essentially closed down criticism. There is a good example

:25:15. > :25:19.of how this should work in the bill. There is protection, and a ring

:25:19. > :25:23.fencing around peer review debate in scientific journals. There is a

:25:23. > :25:28.recognition of the fact that the robust presentation of evidence

:25:28. > :25:31.around ideas, that that is absolutely the core of decision-

:25:31. > :25:34.making in our society orach should be. There is a recognition that

:25:34. > :25:38.that should be protected. It is protected in Parliament by

:25:38. > :25:41.privilege and there is partial privilege for the scientific

:25:42. > :25:51.publications. We think that should be extended to the public. By

:25:52. > :25:53.

:25:53. > :25:58.example that is used his websites like Mumsnet, where a robust

:25:58. > :26:02.debate... There was an M E website were there was a discussion about a

:26:02. > :26:06.claim that herbal tea could allow weight loss to happen. Eight diet

:26:06. > :26:09.supplement, essentially. There was a libel action threatened in that

:26:09. > :26:15.debate and the attempt was made to shut that down. There was an

:26:15. > :26:19.interesting case with Which? magazine who presented a report on

:26:19. > :26:23.child seats in cars and the company issued a libel threat saying that

:26:23. > :26:27.it could not be discussed, rather than presenting a counter argument

:26:27. > :26:30.it, so the public could make their own decision. Because of the First

:26:30. > :26:33.Amendment in the United States, none of these things could happen

:26:33. > :26:37.there. None of these court cases would see the light of day. If it

:26:37. > :26:43.came to court, the judge would say, sorry, First Amendment, thank you

:26:43. > :26:47.and goodbye. That is another debate, free-speech, it is not part of

:26:47. > :26:52.British law. We're looking for a law Bar. We're saying that the

:26:52. > :26:56.evidence should be presentable, and there should be some protections

:26:56. > :27:00.are round malicious publications, and everyone accepts that. --

:27:00. > :27:05.protections around. The threat of libel action, the competition, the

:27:05. > :27:10.time, the cost, the public should be prevented from seeing the

:27:10. > :27:17.evidence, that idea seems to be to be unreasonable. This became the

:27:17. > :27:19.libel capital under -- libel capital of the world under Labour.

:27:19. > :27:22.I think the Conservatives and Ken clerk deserve credit for this

:27:22. > :27:25.because too often when a new government comes in, even if there

:27:25. > :27:28.is a good idea, they say they will not take it forward. They have

:27:28. > :27:32.taken a different point of view and we think they are right and will

:27:32. > :27:37.support them. We have concerns reflected in what Brian said that

:27:37. > :27:42.the bill needs to go further but I think this legislation is overdue.

:27:42. > :27:46.Is the judge -- is the Government's open, will they listen to the need

:27:46. > :27:49.to make the Bill tougher so that it does the full job? We will always

:27:49. > :27:54.listen. The important thing is getting the balance right between

:27:54. > :27:57.freedom of speech and the ability to protect your reputation as well.

:27:57. > :28:00.The great strike that has been made in this bill is putting it on a

:28:00. > :28:06.statutory footing, the idea of a responsible publication, and making

:28:06. > :28:10.sure that people have more clarity in this area. Moving away from

:28:10. > :28:14.being the libel capital of the world. One of the changes is that

:28:14. > :28:19.the damage has to be done in this country, you can no longer get a

:28:19. > :28:24.billionaire from Azerbaijan coming year. We have time to give you the

:28:24. > :28:30.answer to our Guess The Year competition. The answer was 1989.

:28:30. > :28:39.Where is the button? I have not got a button! It is under the chair. It

:28:39. > :28:45.is too far away. I would just do this. There we go. As it come up?

:28:45. > :28:48.Live telly is great! It is up on the screen. The button works, even

:28:48. > :28:54.when it is not there. Brian, thank you for being with us, interesting