:00:43. > :00:48.Morning, folks. Welcome to Daily Politics. The chief executive of
:00:48. > :00:53.Barclays Bank, Bob Diamond, is under huge fire after traders
:00:53. > :00:57.manipulated a key interest rate. The bank's been fined nearly �300
:00:57. > :01:01.million. MPs are calling for Mr Diamond's head on a plate.
:01:01. > :01:03.This story is huge and it won't stop at Barclays. Other banks are
:01:03. > :01:07.under investigation and there are those who want criminal charges to
:01:07. > :01:12.follow for those who are proved to have been rigging the markets.
:01:12. > :01:16.Is it time to intervene in Syria? Or at least arm the rebels who are
:01:16. > :01:19.getting slaughtered by the Assad regime?
:01:19. > :01:23.Back to the Cold War. The BBC has discovered that the Czechs had a
:01:23. > :01:29.Tory Minister working for them back in the 1960s, he even gave them
:01:29. > :01:33.floor plans of the Houses of Parliament.
:01:33. > :01:37.All that in the next half an hour. Joining us for the programme is
:01:37. > :01:41.Mark Malloch-Brown, once the deputy Secretary General of the United
:01:41. > :01:44.Nations and Labour Foreign Office Minister and now works for FTI
:01:44. > :01:50.Consulting which provides advice to businesses around the world.
:01:50. > :01:54.Welcome. If they had they had floor plans of
:01:54. > :01:58.the House of Commons, I am amazed they lost the Cold War! Information
:01:58. > :02:00.like that. Something that's no laughing matter, the scandal that's
:02:00. > :02:06.engulfing Barclays this morning, threatening to spread to other
:02:06. > :02:11.banks in the City. Pressure is mounting on the boss of Barclays,
:02:11. > :02:16.Bob Diamond to resign after the bank was fined �290 million by US
:02:16. > :02:19.and British regulators for trying to manipulate the price of crucial
:02:19. > :02:24.interest rates, actually the price of money they were trying to
:02:24. > :02:29.manipulate in something called the LIBOR, an interest rate set in
:02:29. > :02:34.London. The George Osborne -- the Chancellor, George Osborne, will
:02:34. > :02:38.make a statement in the Commons. Bring us up to speed.
:02:39. > :02:43.Bob Diamond took over as boss of Barclays in October 2010. The abuse
:02:43. > :02:48.in question took place at the investment arm of Barclays, known
:02:48. > :02:52.as Barclays Capital or BarCap. It happened between 2005 and 2009 when
:02:52. > :02:57.he was in charge of BarCap, quite simply, the allegation is that
:02:57. > :03:02.traders at the bank lied about the interest rates it was paying to
:03:02. > :03:06.borrow money from other banks. The rates in question are the London
:03:06. > :03:16.Interbank Offered Rate or LIBOR or EURIBOR. These rates directly
:03:16. > :03:24.
:03:24. > :03:28.influence the value of trillions of tkhras of -- dollars of of
:03:28. > :03:35.financial rate. It's believed other banks are also
:03:35. > :03:40.being investigated, including Royal Bank of Scotland, HSBC. Bob die die
:03:41. > :03:47.-- Diamond has already said he will waive his bonus as a result of this.
:03:47. > :03:52.Joining us now is Allister Heath. It looks bad for all banks and it's
:03:52. > :03:56.a disaster for the City's reputation. This was a central
:03:56. > :03:59.asset in the City, because the City still has control of the price of
:03:59. > :04:03.global money, that's what an EURIBOR is about and the City's
:04:03. > :04:06.reputation is as a trustworthy marketplace, that's why consumers
:04:06. > :04:10.and banks and institutions from all over the world trusted that price
:04:10. > :04:14.that was set in London. Everybody thought it was a fair market, a
:04:15. > :04:19.fair value of the cost of money of interbank lending. It turns out it
:04:19. > :04:22.wasn't. In fact, it was a farce. You had various traders, not just
:04:22. > :04:25.from Barclays, but almost certainly from other institutions
:04:25. > :04:28.manipulating this to their own advantage and to be honest, they
:04:28. > :04:32.all thought it was a bit of a joke and actually wrote it down in e-
:04:32. > :04:36.mails, which is astonishing when you are breaking the rules in that
:04:36. > :04:40.way. So it's a real blow for London this, a much bigger blow than
:04:40. > :04:44.people realise. The evidence will be there if it was in e-mails and
:04:44. > :04:49.they won't be surprised in the City there will be another round of
:04:49. > :04:53.banker-bashing. This time it will be deserved because there's no
:04:53. > :04:59.justification or excuse. In many ways this central part of what the
:04:59. > :05:04.City does was run like a 1980s- style club, where it was not
:05:04. > :05:06.serious, it was amateurish really and rules weren't enforced,
:05:07. > :05:11.regulators were careless or didn't know what was going on. I think
:05:11. > :05:15.it's a big problem indeed. What our viewers might want to know is what
:05:15. > :05:19.would it mean for mortgages, have people been paying too much for
:05:19. > :05:25.mortgages or loans or too little? It's a very complicated question.
:05:25. > :05:28.In some cases they might have paid too much, in some cases too little.
:05:28. > :05:33.The difference was probably not that massive, but still significant,
:05:33. > :05:36.maybe a 10th of a percentage point at times. It's not a simple
:05:36. > :05:41.question that some people lost, some you won. It's a question of a
:05:41. > :05:45.central price at the heart of the global economy was wrong and wasn't
:05:45. > :05:50.put together in a serious manner. Stay with us, but thank you for the
:05:50. > :05:54.moment. With us now, former banking
:05:54. > :05:58.Minister, Lord Myners and from the Treasury Select Committee, Jesse
:05:58. > :06:02.Norman, who once worked at Barclays, but we won't hold that against him!
:06:02. > :06:05.Welcome. This goes to the heart of the integrity of the City of London,
:06:06. > :06:09.which is probably its most important asset, its reputation.
:06:09. > :06:14.It's another example of Labour having failed to regulate it
:06:14. > :06:18.properly. I think there were very significant shortcomings in
:06:18. > :06:22.regulation, both when Labour was in power and now the coalition is in
:06:22. > :06:26.power. Andrew, we need to be realistic. Regulators will never be
:06:26. > :06:32.able to completely eliminate risk. The responsibility for that must
:06:32. > :06:37.lie with the board of directors, senior management and shareholders.
:06:37. > :06:42.The regulations allowed banks to set LIBOR on their word. It wasn't
:06:42. > :06:49.done independently. It wasn't done on the basis of trades carried out
:06:49. > :06:53.at a LIBOR rate, the banks could say LIBOR today was 2.1%. How could
:06:53. > :06:58.that be allowed? The process for fixing LIBOR was under the
:06:58. > :07:01.supervision of Thompson Reuterss and British Bankers' Association,
:07:01. > :07:04.it was well documented, well published. We have been raising
:07:04. > :07:09.questions about LIBOR for sometime. I put down a number of written
:07:09. > :07:13.questions. You didn't when in power and you had a chance to do
:07:13. > :07:17.something about it. That's absolutely not true, Andrew. This
:07:17. > :07:20.happened when you were in power. am saying that there were failures
:07:20. > :07:26.of regulation. We know that. Regulation simply wasn't good
:07:26. > :07:29.enough t wasn't intrusive enough, it wasn't smart enough. But the
:07:29. > :07:32.regulation won't stop this happening T didn't stop it
:07:32. > :07:36.happening in America, in the Far East. Remember, this failure in
:07:36. > :07:40.Barclays was not just in London, it was global. Worldwide. It was
:07:40. > :07:46.systemic. It was - it involved a significant number of senior
:07:46. > :07:49.managers. Who are the victims? if the rates have been pushed down
:07:49. > :07:53.there will be savers and Allister is right that the amounts in each
:07:53. > :07:58.case may be small, but when you have hundreds of thousands or
:07:59. > :08:03.millions of savers, there may be some people who have suffered, if
:08:03. > :08:06.not individually, collectively... Borrowers will be beneficiaries.
:08:06. > :08:11.Most of the action seems to have been to push LIBOR down, people
:08:11. > :08:15.will be getting lower rates. There were beneficiaries from this
:08:15. > :08:23.manipulation. Well, it's manipulation against the reference
:08:23. > :08:27.rate. It benefits some and hurts others. For savings, that will be
:08:27. > :08:32.be pensioners, people like that. Bob Diamond was head of Barclays
:08:32. > :08:37.Capital, it was where this was taking place, this manipulation,
:08:37. > :08:41.the investment arm. He was the boss then. He's now the boss of all of
:08:41. > :08:46.Barclays, including the retail and the banking. Shouldn't shareholders
:08:46. > :08:49.say it's time for him to go? Well, I think we should wait to see what
:08:49. > :08:52.he says in front of the Treasury Select Committee. There are
:08:52. > :08:56.obviously huge questions about that. Barclays now, I can tell you it's a
:08:56. > :09:02.different organisation from when I joined in 1991 and left in 97,
:09:02. > :09:05.which was a very stodgy one, which had not by the way given up. These
:09:05. > :09:09.institutions, Barclays and Lloyds were set up with a kind of moral
:09:09. > :09:13.purpose, that's what makes this so ironic and sad. It's not a matter
:09:13. > :09:15.for the Treasury Select Committee, whose grilling is mixed when it
:09:16. > :09:20.comes to these things, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's pretty
:09:20. > :09:23.poor. It's a matter for the shareholders who employ this man.
:09:23. > :09:27.And the board of directors and they need to think carefully about this.
:09:27. > :09:32.The chairman of the board of directors, also a director of the
:09:32. > :09:34.BBC... Can he survive? Has been there since 2007. Bob diamond was
:09:34. > :09:38.responsible for this throughout. Very big questions will be asked by
:09:38. > :09:42.the shareholders. Of both of them? Of whether they need significant
:09:42. > :09:46.change. The man now going to run the building of the ringfence
:09:46. > :09:56.between the retail bank and a casino bank was one of the most
:09:56. > :09:58.
:09:58. > :10:00.senior people who have given up a small part of their long-term
:10:00. > :10:03.performance bonus benefits, given up a small part of their bonus.
:10:03. > :10:05.Hardly... If they were really contrite about it they would give
:10:05. > :10:09.up all long-term benefits. You may recall that in Barclays case one of
:10:09. > :10:13.its strategies for getting out of the crash in 2007-8 was to take a
:10:13. > :10:17.lot of assets and put them into special vehicles in which some of
:10:17. > :10:20.its own executives were shareholders in their own right.
:10:20. > :10:25.There is a systemic picture which needs to be investigated. What is
:10:25. > :10:29.your take on this? As a bewildered owner of a bank account at Barclays
:10:29. > :10:33.since I was 16 I am astonished what's happened to my bank. The
:10:34. > :10:39.pwrouder -- broader point is it's clear other banks are involved. We
:10:39. > :10:42.outside suddenly stumble across these things, some hard-living, big
:10:42. > :10:48.talking traders are setting the daily interest rates through this
:10:48. > :10:52.process, you think how can a practice survived? Why is LIBOR not
:10:53. > :10:56.set by the amounts - by the rates actually prevailing in the market?
:10:56. > :11:00.Why is it not just fixed against the rates that have been used that
:11:00. > :11:05.day? It's astonishing. Allister Heath, my understanding is that
:11:05. > :11:10.what has happened to Barclays is kind of the tip of the iceberg,
:11:10. > :11:14.that many other banks were involved in this LIBOR scam and Barclays may
:11:14. > :11:18.get off relatively lightly because they ended up co-operating with
:11:18. > :11:22.authorities and they have fingered others who were involved, so more
:11:22. > :11:26.to come, bigger fines or other banks s that true? Yes, it's
:11:26. > :11:29.absolutely true. Barclays is just one of the many banks that are
:11:29. > :11:33.being investigated by this and I am convinced other banks will also
:11:33. > :11:36.have to settle in a similar way, perhaps have to cough up more.
:11:36. > :11:41.Barclays co-operated faster and more more quickly and fully with
:11:41. > :11:45.the authorities, that's why they're fine -- their fine was announced
:11:45. > :11:49.first. This was a systemic issue in this market. This market wasn't a
:11:49. > :11:53.proper market. It wasn't a serious market. That's the great failure.
:11:53. > :11:57.This LIBOR manipulation did not cause a credit crunch or recession,
:11:57. > :12:04.but it's a very, very damaging scandal and damaging blow to the
:12:04. > :12:08.City's reputation. Ed Millie -- Ed Miliband has called for criminal
:12:09. > :12:12.prosecutions to follow against those who broke the law, but is it
:12:12. > :12:17.career that what they've done was criminal as opposed to a civil
:12:17. > :12:22.breach of the law? I am not a lawyer, Andrew. It's hard to tell,
:12:22. > :12:24.isn't it? I do believe the police and Crown Prosecution Service
:12:24. > :12:29.should look at this. It's lamentable that white collar crime
:12:29. > :12:31.seems to suffer such little consequence in terms of action.
:12:31. > :12:36.That's part lay because the authorities are so -- partly
:12:36. > :12:46.because the authorities are so useless at imposing it. Look at
:12:46. > :12:54.what happened when there were 120 police outside Mayfair for
:12:54. > :12:57.financial crimes and those brothers will win a lawsuit. I know nothing.
:12:57. > :13:01.It's example... This has come from the American authorities. They've
:13:01. > :13:05.been far tougher on this. Always have been. If there's been a breach
:13:05. > :13:09.of the Fraud Act these people should be prosecuted. It's a
:13:09. > :13:13.serious problem. If you think about, the average person who has a bank
:13:13. > :13:20.account or a share in Barclays is going to be outraged by this. If
:13:20. > :13:26.they did something of similar kind, slow payments, any breach of the
:13:26. > :13:30.Fraud Act, they would be vigorously prosecuted. Can I also add the
:13:30. > :13:33.Government is to pump more money into Barclays through their funding
:13:33. > :13:36.for lending programme. The Government is using banks as their
:13:36. > :13:40.principle agent to get the economy going. They're using organisations,
:13:40. > :13:43.at least in one case and several others, where there are serious
:13:44. > :13:47.moral failings at the heart of those organisations. There has to
:13:47. > :13:51.be a change in the constitution of those banks. There has to be change
:13:51. > :13:56.in the senior leadership of Barclays. Allister Heath, should
:13:56. > :14:03.there be criminal prosecutions now and given this country's past track
:14:03. > :14:07.record from Mr Maxwell, young Mr Maxwell skwrpbwards -- onwards,
:14:07. > :14:11.would the prosecutions get anywhere? It seems apparently, I am
:14:11. > :14:14.reporting what others are saying, it seems that these were not crimes,
:14:14. > :14:20.that's why they're not prosecuting them. The question is should they
:14:20. > :14:23.be crimes? Is the UK doing enough to prosecute white collar crimes?
:14:23. > :14:27.Over the last two years they have started jailing and prosecuting
:14:27. > :14:30.some white collar crimes, for example insider trading deals, and
:14:30. > :14:34.actually people going to prison as a result. This hasn't happened in
:14:34. > :14:38.the past. But of course this is is a massive setback and it will be
:14:38. > :14:43.strange indeed if this particular set of circumstances wasn't
:14:43. > :14:45.criminal. But apparently that's why there's merely a fine and not a
:14:45. > :14:49.criminal prosecution. The problem is it's a Government's
:14:49. > :14:52.responsibility to write the laws. It's absurd that you can do
:14:52. > :14:56.something like that and it's not a crime. I don't understand why the
:14:56. > :15:00.Government doesn't change the law in this case if that's what the
:15:00. > :15:06.problem is. A lot of these fines will be going to America. A large
:15:06. > :15:11.chunk is going to the UK. Where does the money go, do we get any of
:15:11. > :15:21.it? To the FSA. Basically, a lot more banks are going to be hit by
:15:21. > :15:22.
:15:22. > :15:27.fines here. What is the law, and is I suppose this is tax-deductable?
:15:27. > :15:31.suspect it may well be. Barclays don't pay much tax, as we know, so
:15:31. > :15:37.it may be they are being caught out by their own cleverness here.
:15:37. > :15:42.right. Well, gentlemen, sometimes if you don't laugh, you would cry!
:15:42. > :15:48.Thank you very much. I hope we will see you on This Week tonight.
:15:48. > :15:54.I think that is a yes! Syria. Kofi Annan has put forward a plan for
:15:54. > :15:59.the formation of a national unity government. This could be get the
:15:59. > :16:01.backing of Russia. It is not clear whether Moscow shares the Western
:16:01. > :16:06.interpretation that it would exclude President Assad. Russia's
:16:06. > :16:11.backing might come as a bit of a surprise. Up till now, the Russians
:16:11. > :16:19.have blocked several initiatives at the United Nations. Should those
:16:19. > :16:23.countries that want to intervene get on and do something?
:16:23. > :16:27.The new home of the General Assembly is ready for business.
:16:27. > :16:32.Some things haven't changed much since then. The Security Council is
:16:32. > :16:38.still based on something called rate power unanimity, meaning the
:16:38. > :16:43.permanent five members - the US, UK, France, China and Russia - have a
:16:43. > :16:47.veto. The Russians have used theirs twice leading some foreign affairs
:16:47. > :16:55.analysts to wonder what is the point? There has to be a way around
:16:55. > :16:58.this, this deadlock, because people are dying. How many genocides, how
:16:58. > :17:04.many instances of "ethnic cleansing" have happened while the
:17:04. > :17:08.UN Security Council is feckless? We had Rwanda in the '90s, we had
:17:08. > :17:13.Darfur and now Syria. When can countries break the deadlock by
:17:13. > :17:18.going it alone and intervening militarily without any blue
:17:18. > :17:22.helmets? Never, unless there is a Security Council Resolution, or it
:17:22. > :17:26.is clear self-defence. There is no other just and legitimate way of
:17:26. > :17:32.using force internationally. Jeremy should know. He was our man
:17:32. > :17:37.in New York when Britain and America failed to get a second
:17:37. > :17:41.resolution authorising the invasion of Iraq. The co-sponsors reserve
:17:41. > :17:45.their right to take their own steps to secure the disarmament of Iraq.
:17:45. > :17:51.Nowadays he says it isn't fair to blame the UN when things go wrong.
:17:51. > :17:55.Or don't happen at all. There is a ceiling to these things. The UN is
:17:55. > :17:58.its member states in the political arena. It is not a separate
:17:58. > :18:03.government, or agency that you go to when there is a fire in your
:18:03. > :18:10.house, that has its own fire engine. The member states provide the
:18:10. > :18:13.solutions. The UN is the forum for that under certain rules. Even the
:18:13. > :18:19.institution's critics don't think it should be circumvented
:18:19. > :18:21.altogether? Doing that is risky. What is the point of having this
:18:21. > :18:26.international institution, international legal system in place,
:18:26. > :18:32.if people are going to run roughshod over it? It is not just
:18:32. > :18:37.the United States and Britain that could do that, any country could do
:18:38. > :18:41.that. Joining us now is David Mellor, who served in as many six
:18:41. > :18:46.Departments of State including the Foreign Office with responsibility
:18:46. > :18:49.for the Middle East. Welcome. This idea of a national unity government
:18:49. > :18:56.in Syria, is that going to work? is probably the only way forward.
:18:56. > :19:00.The fighting is really reaching quite a peak now. A TV station got
:19:00. > :19:03.seized just last night, a government TV station on the
:19:04. > :19:09.outskirts of Damascus. I felt throughout that the only
:19:09. > :19:14.alternative to fully-fledged civil war with huge consequences for
:19:14. > :19:19.civilian life is a negotiated solution which takes Assad out but
:19:19. > :19:23.leaves elements of the regime in. The Russians think that Assad would
:19:23. > :19:28.be included in some sort of national government. That would not
:19:28. > :19:32.succeed? I think they understand... They do? That he is on his way out.
:19:32. > :19:37.The other elements they have backed will still have a part in it.
:19:37. > :19:43.view? Many people have said it would cause more problems. Now, we
:19:43. > :19:47.are hearing today that the Turks are sending military reinforcements
:19:47. > :19:52.to the border after what happened last week. It is getting to that
:19:52. > :19:57.pinch point of potential military action? It is. The point was well
:19:57. > :20:00.made in a discussion I had the other day that Syria possesses
:20:00. > :20:04.quite potent anti-aircraft weapons and they demonstrated that with the
:20:04. > :20:09.Turks. I think though it is inevitable that countries like
:20:09. > :20:12.Qatar, Saudi Arabia - they will continue to arm the rebels. It is
:20:12. > :20:17.obvious if problems continue with Turkey, the Turks would at least
:20:17. > :20:20.rattle their sabres even if they don't do anything about it. They
:20:20. > :20:23.wouldn't probably privately want a full-scale military action. That
:20:23. > :20:29.brings us to the point of arming the rebels. Is that the way
:20:29. > :20:32.forward? It is a very bad second choice. It may be inevitable. But
:20:32. > :20:37.the fact is Qatar and Saudi Arabia evidently already are arming the
:20:37. > :20:43.rebels, which is why they are putting up a much better fight of
:20:43. > :20:48.it now. I think we are into - it is a minute to midnight, there is a
:20:48. > :20:53.last chance for diplomacy. If it doesn't work, it will be a fully-
:20:53. > :20:59.fledged conflict. I agree. I think that Kofi Annan has called this
:20:59. > :21:03.meeting in Geneva and that is a last-ditch. Otherwise, I do think
:21:03. > :21:06.that serious efforts have to be made to persuade the Russians to
:21:06. > :21:13.take a more constructive view. Experienced people in the region
:21:13. > :21:18.have been telling me, like the founding General Secretary of The
:21:18. > :21:22.Gulf Co-operation Council. He said, "Don't worry, he will be gone by
:21:22. > :21:28.Christmas." The worry is, what is there left? I had the privilege of
:21:28. > :21:32.knowing his father - a totally different character. You feel that
:21:32. > :21:36.Bashar was thrust into government. There is a big issue as to whether
:21:36. > :21:40.he is the frontman or whether he is the man of power. I suspect it is
:21:40. > :21:44.the people behind him who pose more of a threat. People continue to be
:21:44. > :21:50.killed in quite large numbers. It does draw attention then to whether
:21:50. > :21:57.the United Nations really is any more a forum... I agree. This may
:21:57. > :22:07.be the one thing where he wants to believe in the UN. I want to
:22:07. > :22:15.believe in the UN. If one or two members of the big five opt out,
:22:15. > :22:19.you can't, the UN becomes impotent. So should countries act outside
:22:19. > :22:24.that forum? They have to. It is a dangerous, slippery path. Then
:22:24. > :22:32.anything becomes allowable. The veto is rarely used now. It's
:22:32. > :22:36.tragic it's been used on Syria. Continually on Syria? Several times.
:22:36. > :22:41.Thank goodness it's been used on Israel. They teach the lessons for
:22:41. > :22:45.others of course. The fact is the veto, may when it is used by Russia
:22:45. > :22:50.or the United States, or China, we may not like it, but it
:22:50. > :22:53.occasionally has some purpose of reflecting the fact there isn't an
:22:53. > :22:58.international consensus. While the Russians have lots of bad ideas
:22:58. > :23:01.about what they are doing, they don't want the precedent of
:23:01. > :23:06.intervention because of their own Chechnya-like problems, they also
:23:06. > :23:10.in some ways may have a more realistic view of Syria being a
:23:10. > :23:13.fragmented, mosaic of a country, different ethnic groups, that if
:23:13. > :23:18.you break it, it is very hard to put it together again. All right.
:23:18. > :23:22.Thank you very much. You are staying with us, David Mellor.
:23:22. > :23:27.Don't go. We are all staying! We are keeping them hostage for
:23:27. > :23:31.another five minutes. We are familiar with the names of Cold War
:23:31. > :23:37.traitors - Kim Philby, Guy Burgess, Anthony Blunt, John Stonehouse -
:23:37. > :23:42.and many others, too. We can add a new name to that list -
:23:42. > :23:46.Conservative MP, Ray Mawby, who a BBC investigation has discovered
:23:46. > :23:51.spent a decade stalking the House of Commons all the time working for
:23:51. > :23:56.the Communist Czechoslovakian Secret Service. He even gave them
:23:56. > :24:04.floorplans showing where the Prime Minister's office was inside the
:24:04. > :24:08.building. I think these are also on tourist maps! LAUGHTER Mr Mawby, a
:24:08. > :24:13.junior minister in Harold Macmillan's Government, and he was
:24:13. > :24:17.a staunch defender of right-wing traditional values. Here he is on
:24:17. > :24:24.BBC Television opposing the legalisation of homosexuality
:24:24. > :24:28.without a hint of irony on the grounds that it might be a security
:24:28. > :24:38.risk. He is more liable to blackmail as
:24:38. > :24:38.
:24:38. > :24:44.we have seen in many of the security cases in the past. Most of
:24:44. > :24:47.the people have been found to be male homosexuals and they were not
:24:47. > :24:51.blackmailed, I believe the main thing was not because of the danger
:24:51. > :24:55.of them being brought into a police court, the danger that their
:24:55. > :25:00.friends and relatives and parents would in fact be told by the
:25:00. > :25:06.blackmailer if they refused to either pay the money or hand over
:25:06. > :25:10.whatever they were asked for. man who exposed Ray Mawby's
:25:10. > :25:14.treachery is Gordon Corera. Welcome. Thank you. Congratulations, too.
:25:14. > :25:19.Did this guy ever hand over anything of any use? Well, none of
:25:19. > :25:23.it was top secret, in a sense. He never had access to national
:25:23. > :25:27.security information. What is fascinating is the Czechs were
:25:27. > :25:31.fascinated with Westminster. They wanted the political gossip. They
:25:31. > :25:34.asked him for information on the personal and financial
:25:34. > :25:39.peculiarities of other Tory MPs, looking to see if there was anyone
:25:39. > :25:42.else they could target. Then there are these interesting floorplans of
:25:42. > :25:46.the Prime Minister's office where he points out where the security
:25:46. > :25:51.guards might be. The implication is they were going to bug it or do
:25:51. > :25:55.something like that. So not top secret, but inside Westminster.
:25:55. > :26:01.They thought it was useful. Why did he do it? Very simple answer -
:26:01. > :26:07.money. He didn't have much money. He wasn't a fellow traveller?
:26:07. > :26:17.at all. He was gambling in clubs. He would lose money and the Czechs
:26:17. > :26:19.
:26:19. > :26:23.would be there to cover his losses... Have a cheque! LAUGHTER
:26:23. > :26:29.There is a bonus if you get some extra staff. You met him, David?
:26:29. > :26:39.knew him very well. I was elected in 1979. Was it still black-and-
:26:39. > :26:41.
:26:41. > :26:46.white television then? No! LAUGHTER He was a member between '79 and '7.
:26:46. > :26:50.-- '7. Ray was more likely to be found in the bar. He was a very
:26:50. > :26:55.jovial character. If you had to spend a long night having a laugh
:26:55. > :27:00.and a joke with Ray and others of similar dispositions so when I
:27:00. > :27:10.heard this morning on the radio that this man had been exposed by
:27:10. > :27:16.
:27:16. > :27:23.our friend here, who - watch out for poisoned umbrellas - I never
:27:23. > :27:28.thought Ray would be the one. our authorities know, did MI5 - MI5
:27:28. > :27:34.is paid to stop this from happening? It is. No comment from a
:27:34. > :27:42.Whitehall official is all I got. They certainly know then! Maybe he
:27:42. > :27:45.was a double agent? Who knows. If there were warnings to him - but
:27:45. > :27:52.I'm not sure they knew about it. You must have come across a few
:27:52. > :27:58.spies at the UN? Quite a lot. place is full of them! LAUGHTER
:27:58. > :28:03.They mainly live in my building! phone had been tapped which my
:28:03. > :28:08.reply was, "Hell, I worked at the UN, my phone was tapped by
:28:08. > :28:14.everybody!" LAUGHTER How did you get this story? I was looking for a
:28:14. > :28:23.story about Ted Heath. I didn't find any evidence of a blackmail
:28:23. > :28:27.plot against him. I found evidence of Ray Mawby. Hundreds of secrets...
:28:27. > :28:32.I would have been much better value! LAUGHTER I would have
:28:32. > :28:36.charged more than 400 quid! Why didn't anyone ask me? They will now.
:28:36. > :28:43.Listen, thank you to all of you. I will be back tonight with This Week
:28:43. > :28:47.on BBC One at 11.35pm. We will have a sad man on a train, Michael
:28:47. > :28:51.Portillo, Alan Johnson and Hollywood film star, Danny Devito.