:00:46. > :00:49.Good morning and welcome to the Daily Politics. The bank rate
:00:49. > :00:54.fixing scandal has sent shockwaves through the industry and claimed
:00:54. > :00:57.its first scalp - Barclays chairman Marcus Agius resigns and says "the
:00:57. > :01:00.buck stops with me", but could Barclays chief executive Bob
:01:00. > :01:04.Diamond be next? Conservative MPs tell David Cameron
:01:04. > :01:08.his promise of a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU is
:01:08. > :01:11.just "jam tomorrow". Mr Cameron is preparing to report to the House of
:01:11. > :01:17.Commons after last week's EU summit, but has the Prime Minister just
:01:17. > :01:22.made more trouble for himself? Also today: we have got to get the
:01:22. > :01:27.pro-European message across. And we have got to do that before
:01:27. > :01:31.breakfast, before lunch, and Michael, before dinner as well.
:01:31. > :01:35.European leaders fight to keep the euro show on the road, we ask,
:01:35. > :01:40.whatever happened to those who supported Britain joining the
:01:40. > :01:44.currency of the ten years ago? British Rail - we are getting there.
:01:44. > :01:50.And should Britain's were always be brought back into public ownership?
:01:50. > :01:55.We will talk to Labour's Shadow Transport Secretary, Maria Eagle.
:01:55. > :01:59.All that in the next half-hour. With us for the programme today is
:01:59. > :02:02.the economist Will Hutton. Let's kick off with the latest on the
:02:02. > :02:06.back great fixing scandal. It has been confirmed this morning that
:02:06. > :02:10.the chairman of Barclays, Marcus Agius, is to stand down, say the
:02:10. > :02:15.company's reputation had suffered a devastating blow. But at
:02:15. > :02:20.Westminster, the pressure on the bank, which last week paid a record
:02:20. > :02:23.its �290 million in fines, is set only to increase. Critics say chief
:02:23. > :02:26.executive Bob Diamond should carry the can because he ran Barclays'
:02:26. > :02:30.investment bank during the period when its traders were trying to
:02:30. > :02:32.manipulate the LIBOR rates. He is set to face a grilling by the
:02:32. > :02:35.Commons Treasury Select Committee on Wednesday, where he will
:02:35. > :02:38.probably be asked about reports that at one stage, employees
:02:38. > :02:42.believed they were acting on instructions from the Bank of
:02:42. > :02:47.England. Labour leader Ed Miliband has called on Mr Diamond to go,
:02:47. > :02:51.saying there needs to be more than a change of leadership at the back.
:02:51. > :02:53.Labour are also calling for a year- long public inquiry into the
:02:53. > :02:57.culture of the entire banking industry. But the Government notes
:02:57. > :03:01.that it has already ordered a review of the workings of the
:03:01. > :03:03.interbank lending rates. The Business Secretary Vince Cable says
:03:03. > :03:07.the serious Fraud Office is having a fresh look at the evidence from
:03:07. > :03:10.the rigging scandal, raising the prospect of a criminal
:03:10. > :03:14.investigation. And the wrongdoing at Barclay's could be the tip of
:03:14. > :03:19.the iceberg, with up to 20 other banks and financial firms still
:03:19. > :03:22.under investigation. We are joined now by Zia Ullah, a partner at the
:03:22. > :03:26.law firm Pannone, and who was former head of sanctions at
:03:26. > :03:32.Barclays. Did you have any idea this was going on, and are you
:03:32. > :03:41.shocked that your colleagues were involved? - absolutely not. And
:03:41. > :03:48.totally shocked. 99.9% of people who work for Barclays would also be
:03:48. > :03:52.shocked at what has been revealed. In terms of Barclays being the
:03:52. > :03:55.first to settle, an indication that this is the tip of the iceberg, do
:03:55. > :04:00.you agree that this is widespread, and we are only hearing about
:04:00. > :04:03.Barclays because they agreed to settle? Absolutely. I have been
:04:03. > :04:06.slightly disappointed at some of the comments made by some of the
:04:06. > :04:11.political commentators with respect to what action should or should not
:04:11. > :04:16.be taken against Barclays. I do not say that as a former employee, I
:04:16. > :04:21.say it more in terms of my criminal legal practice. There is serious
:04:21. > :04:24.prejudice being caused here by a lot of the comments being made and
:04:24. > :04:28.the furore in relation to Barclays. You say rightly that it is the tip
:04:28. > :04:33.of the iceberg. There are a number of institutions being investigated
:04:33. > :04:36.by the FSA and regulators across the globe. It is wiser for people
:04:36. > :04:42.to await the outcome of those investigations before shouting from
:04:42. > :04:44.the treetops as to what they think should happen. Do you think there
:04:44. > :04:48.has been paid judge or reporting against Barclays when this has
:04:48. > :04:54.probably spread throughout the industry? -- do you think there has
:04:54. > :05:00.been prejudicial reporting? To a degree, I agree with that. There
:05:00. > :05:04.are a number of banks being investigated. In the States, the
:05:04. > :05:14.FBI are launching an investigation. It is a much bigger story than
:05:14. > :05:17.Barclays. But I was surprised that you were head of compliance - the
:05:17. > :05:24.FT reported on Friday that there were three incidences of
:05:24. > :05:30.whistleblowers, people try to draw attention to the Compliance Office,
:05:30. > :05:34.of this game in LIBOR in 2006. That must have been on file, mustn't it?
:05:34. > :05:39.Firstly, I worked for group compliance, and as far as I
:05:39. > :05:44.understand it, the FSA investigation relates to a
:05:44. > :05:49.different department. That is an example of the complexity of this
:05:49. > :05:55.issue. We are talking about a massive institution, with different
:05:55. > :05:59.sectors. This is why there has to be an investigation. What sort of
:05:59. > :06:06.investigation? Barclays themselves are announcing this internal
:06:06. > :06:11.investigation. It can't just be a 41 trading desk in one investment
:06:11. > :06:19.bank. The other banks will have to follow suit. There will have to be
:06:19. > :06:25.an investigation led by a judge. Like Leveson? Like that, into
:06:25. > :06:30.proprietary trading desks. Is that a good idea? It is not for me to
:06:30. > :06:33.judge whether it is right or wrong. That is a fair comment as to
:06:34. > :06:39.whether there should be a wider investigation. The issue I have
:06:39. > :06:43.with what has happened of the past few days is that issues like what
:06:43. > :06:47.the Department of Justice said in relation to Barclays' conduct has
:06:47. > :06:51.not been reported. They said their conduct had been extraordinary in
:06:51. > :06:55.terms of the corporation they had given into the investigation. They
:06:55. > :07:00.have enabled the investigations to carry on. That isn't important
:07:00. > :07:02.point that Bob Diamond made in his letter to Andrew Tyrie, the
:07:03. > :07:08.chairman of the select committee. He made the point that he has
:07:08. > :07:12.collaborated. Other banks will be upset with Barclays, because they
:07:12. > :07:18.would say Barclays has "last", if you like, and turned over a lot of
:07:18. > :07:27.evidence to the regulators. So Barclays may end up in a better
:07:27. > :07:31.position. Should Bob Diamond go? Probably. Should he go? It is not
:07:31. > :07:37.for me to say. Do you think that would help Barclays? You have
:07:37. > :07:42.talked about the fact that you feel they are being held up unfairly as
:07:42. > :07:47.culpable. Would it help if Bob Diamond went? Not the Sara Lee. He
:07:47. > :07:51.should be judged on what he has done for the back, both for
:07:51. > :07:56.shareholders, investors and others inside the bank. They should not be
:07:56. > :08:01.judged by political commentators on the wider issues relating to his
:08:01. > :08:06.bonus or the credit crunch. We are mixing a lot of different issues
:08:06. > :08:10.here. If you are talking purely about LIBOR, let's talk about that.
:08:10. > :08:13.On that issue, then, should he go or should there be a criminal
:08:13. > :08:18.investigation? The FSA has engaged in a long-standing investigation
:08:18. > :08:22.into what happened with LIBOR. This has not come out of the blue. They
:08:22. > :08:27.have been engaged for more than 12 months. They have also engaged with
:08:27. > :08:30.other prosecuting authorities in the US and UK. Whether there should
:08:30. > :08:35.be a criminal investigation will have been assessed already by these
:08:35. > :08:38.bodies. The situation Bob Diamond finds himself in is not unlike the
:08:38. > :08:43.situation some ministers find themselves in when a political hue
:08:43. > :08:49.and cry goes up. You have to lance the boil, and the way we do that in
:08:49. > :08:55.Britain is through accountability and someone taking the rap. Perhaps
:08:55. > :08:58.if politicians did the same, there might be more of a case. Aspect
:08:59. > :09:02.that Bob Diamond will have to do it. Whatever the rights and wrongs,
:09:02. > :09:06.Barclays will have to say it is different now.
:09:06. > :09:09.After appearing to rule out an in- out referendum on Britain's
:09:09. > :09:12.membership of the E one Friday, yesterday David Cameron wrote an
:09:12. > :09:16.article suggesting that a future Conservative government may hold a
:09:16. > :09:20.referendum at some point, although he did not say when. That has not
:09:20. > :09:24.please some Tory backbenchers, who are demanding that the PM gives a
:09:24. > :09:27.cast-iron guarantee of a referendum. Remember that expression? This
:09:27. > :09:31.morning, the former Defence Secretary Liam Fox added fuel to
:09:31. > :09:36.the fire. In the last hour, he said he supported calls for a referendum,
:09:36. > :09:41.but added that now is not the right time. I would like to see Britain
:09:41. > :09:45.negotiating new relationship with the EU, based on economic rather
:09:45. > :09:50.than political considerations and set out in clear and unambiguous
:09:50. > :09:56.language. If we succeed, a referendum should be held and
:09:56. > :10:02.formal acceptance advocated. If, on the other hand, this approach is
:10:02. > :10:06.rejected outright or falls short of our necessary red lines, we would
:10:06. > :10:12.have no alternative but to recommend rejection and consider
:10:12. > :10:14.departure from the European Union. I am joined now by the Gidley de
:10:14. > :10:18.Nigel Farage and the Conservative MP Stewart Jackson, who resigned
:10:18. > :10:23.last autumn as a ministerial aide after he voted in favour of a
:10:23. > :10:28.referendum. Stewart Jackson, what was your reaction to David
:10:28. > :10:33.Cameron's comments that there may be a referendum at some point?
:10:33. > :10:36.welcome them as far as they go, but there is a danger that we are not
:10:36. > :10:41.learning the lessons of the cast- iron guarantee that the Lisbon
:10:41. > :10:45.Treaty promised on the referendum. You can only play FTSE and
:10:45. > :10:48.titillation with the electors for so long before there is a
:10:48. > :10:54.discrepancy between what voters think you are saying and what you
:10:54. > :10:59.are actually saying. We want an unambiguous commitment, a road map
:10:59. > :11:04.to real negotiation at this historic juncture with the EU and a
:11:04. > :11:11.referendum to let the people decide. Do you want a renegotiation first
:11:11. > :11:15.and then an in-out referendum? morning, I was at Liam Fox's speech,
:11:15. > :11:18.and he made a very coherent case that the Europhiles want an
:11:18. > :11:25.immediate EU in out referendum because they think they can win it
:11:25. > :11:31.through scaremongering and, basically, lies about our role
:11:31. > :11:37.outside the European Union. I think we need firstly to use the
:11:37. > :11:40.opportunity of this historic moment in European-British relations to
:11:40. > :11:45.use that leverage to drive a hard bargain and get powers back from
:11:45. > :11:48.the EU before we go for a referendum. Nigel, you could say
:11:48. > :11:51.that the Conservatives have moved a long way in six months, even if
:11:51. > :11:55.they are not satisfying backbenchers. The promise of a
:11:55. > :12:00.referendum would make you know and void? I heard that Cameron speech.
:12:00. > :12:04.It was the most pro EU speech he has ever given. It was passionate -
:12:04. > :12:08.we must stay part of the EU, it brings enormous benefits to this
:12:08. > :12:12.country, and I do not want a referendum because I have made my
:12:12. > :12:16.mind up and we should stay in. The need for UKIP is greater than it
:12:16. > :12:21.has ever been. I am very nervous about this renegotiation, because
:12:21. > :12:25.we may finish up in a 1975 top position where we apparently won
:12:25. > :12:28.back fisheries in the Solent, and it is put to a referendum and we
:12:28. > :12:31.are kept trapped inside the European market. Isn't there a
:12:31. > :12:35.worry that the way Tory backbenchers are behaving well end
:12:35. > :12:38.up splitting the party, and in the end, the party will have a
:12:38. > :12:44.fractious time which will do it no good? We won the argument
:12:44. > :12:48.historicist. We were told to rule out EU membership for one
:12:48. > :12:52.parliament. People like Will Hutton thought it was fantastic, when
:12:52. > :12:58.actually, it is a recession causing mechanism inflicting poverty on
:12:58. > :13:01.millions of Europeans. Why don't you join UKIP, then? Because the
:13:01. > :13:05.party best placed to take on this historic challenge to trust the
:13:05. > :13:09.people is the Conservatives. your leader is explicit in thinking
:13:09. > :13:14.EU membership is a good thing, and the British must not be allowed a
:13:14. > :13:21.vote in case they give the wrong answer. He said so on Friday.
:13:21. > :13:26.and I agree that we should not sign up to the Common Market referendum
:13:26. > :13:31.in 1975 into greater creation of one country called Europe. It is
:13:31. > :13:36.time we trusted the people. People do not just senior -- people do not
:13:36. > :13:41.trust senior politicians any longer. But you said yourself that you have
:13:41. > :13:45.been banking on having a say, and you have been denied it. One is not
:13:45. > :13:50.mutually exclusive of the other. You can press for renegotiation.
:13:50. > :13:54.David Cameron has to be clear and specific, with a time frame about
:13:54. > :13:59.what that renegotiation will be, whether it is social policy or
:13:59. > :14:04.justice etc. Isn't that sensible, Nigel? This is not the time to have
:14:04. > :14:09.this argument. We might as well see, as William Hague was saying, what
:14:09. > :14:12.kind of Europe we end up with after they have sorted themselves out.
:14:12. > :14:16.You are right in one way that several countries may leave the
:14:16. > :14:22.Eurozone, and that could change the shape of the EU. But what is for
:14:22. > :14:27.certain is that we will get an EU that is ever more deeply integrated,
:14:27. > :14:31.ever more undemocratic. And as the EU itself is moving on and changing
:14:31. > :14:36.into something different, now is the right time for us to have that
:14:36. > :14:40.debate. There is no guarantee of an exit with a referendum. There is no
:14:40. > :14:44.guarantee, but I was a businessman. I got involved in politics because
:14:44. > :14:48.I felt these three parties were offering us no choice on this issue.
:14:48. > :14:51.Where I agree with Nigel is that UKIP is a major threat to the
:14:51. > :14:59.Conservative Party at the general election. If they Paul above a
:14:59. > :15:01.certain percentage, like 5%, if they pull above that, the chances
:15:01. > :15:06.of the Conservative Party getting an overall majority diminish
:15:06. > :15:09.rapidly. Therefore, it is in our interest as a party as well as the
:15:09. > :15:13.national interest to take this debate head-on and have a mature
:15:13. > :15:23.debate. The stronger UKIP is, the more likely a referendum will
:15:23. > :15:23.
:15:23. > :15:28.Your reaction to this argument about many Tory backbenchers
:15:28. > :15:36.feeling deprived. They are being marched up the hill by David
:15:36. > :15:40.Cameron. This referendum would make it final, with an to it? I am very
:15:40. > :15:45.suspicious. I am not sure they are the democratic instrument there you
:15:46. > :15:50.say they are. The second point is, I think in/out, a lot of people
:15:50. > :15:54.work in the car industry, a lot of people work in the City of London
:15:55. > :16:03.and in higher education who think, leaving the European Union will
:16:03. > :16:10.give us a kick up the butt. Because you are on the centre of right,
:16:10. > :16:15.there is 10%, 20% of the population who are very passionate about it.
:16:15. > :16:21.An enormous number in the centre up unconvinced. You have never asked
:16:21. > :16:30.opinions! I believe we vote MPs and they take decisions in the House of
:16:30. > :16:40.Commons on our behalf. People are going to vote for this because of
:16:40. > :16:40.
:16:40. > :16:48.the X Factor. That is a really complacent and patronising attitude.
:16:48. > :16:58.There is a global trade world. Why be locked into a backward looking,
:16:58. > :16:58.
:16:58. > :17:01.overtaxed, credit union? You have not moved on since the 1970s.
:17:01. > :17:06.are 60 countries around the world that now have a free trade
:17:06. > :17:11.agreement with the European Union. As their biggest export market,
:17:11. > :17:15.we're asking for the same thing. are going to move on. The British
:17:15. > :17:18.economy may not have much going for it at the moment, but there is one
:17:18. > :17:21.thing... At least we're not in the eurozone! Younger viewers may not
:17:21. > :17:24.remember but, at the turn of the century, there was a campaign to
:17:24. > :17:27.get Britain to sign up to the single currency, spearheaded by
:17:27. > :17:29.Tony Blair and uniting such diverse figures as Charles Kennedy, Ken
:17:29. > :17:32.Clarke and Peter Mandelson. Now you would think pro-euro campaigners
:17:32. > :17:35.would be keeping pretty schtum right now but, believe it or not,
:17:35. > :17:45.there are a few brave souls willing to put their heads above the
:17:45. > :17:47.
:17:47. > :17:52.parapet. We sent David into the heart of the City to seek them out.
:17:52. > :17:56.The debate has been dominated by the Euro-sceptics. A their heady
:17:56. > :18:04.days of 1999 when all the hip kids were damp with the euro and wanting
:18:04. > :18:11.to keep the pound was distinctly Square. These days, not so much.
:18:11. > :18:16.The wisdom is that wise -- while staying out that we dodged a pretty
:18:17. > :18:22.big economic bullet. Here at the Daily Politics we like to grab hold
:18:22. > :18:27.of the wisdom and slap it about. There is a school of thought that
:18:27. > :18:31.says if Britain had joined the euro we might be better off than we are.
:18:31. > :18:37.I am always struck that George Osborne and Ed Balls say how lucky
:18:37. > :18:41.we are that we did not join the euro - how bad things would be had
:18:41. > :18:45.rejoined. I look around at the state of the British economy and
:18:46. > :18:52.think, could it really be worse than theirs? The only major economy
:18:52. > :18:59.in the G 28 in a double dip recession. We have a deficit the
:18:59. > :19:04.size of Greece. Bigger fall in output and France or Germany. Could
:19:04. > :19:08.it really have been worse than that had we join the euro? Some people
:19:09. > :19:15.think if we had to join the euro, it might have kept our economy a
:19:15. > :19:20.bit more honest. Britain has been getting by since the 1960s on
:19:20. > :19:26.periodic devaluations of the pound. On this occasion we devalued the
:19:26. > :19:31.pound 25% against the euro. We went down 25%. The Bank of England has
:19:31. > :19:36.been printing a lot of money to try to keep the economy afloat. We
:19:36. > :19:43.could not do that if we work in the euro. Probably we should not do all
:19:43. > :19:49.rely on that as the long-term route forward. Surely the idea of Britain
:19:49. > :19:54.ever joining the euro in the future it is unthinkable, isn't it? In 20,
:19:54. > :20:03.30 or 40 years' time, Europe will have a single currency. The
:20:03. > :20:07.pressure is on Britain to join that. The eurozone main look crazy right
:20:07. > :20:17.now but the campaign to take Britain into the euro is not dead -
:20:17. > :20:22.it is only sleeping. David Thompson reporting. Will you admit you got
:20:22. > :20:26.it spectacularly wrong? I do not accept the terms of the question.
:20:26. > :20:31.The euro will survive. The situation in Britain economically
:20:31. > :20:39.is a disaster. Philip Stephens made the point and he is right. We are
:20:39. > :20:44.four years into this recession. Out book is billed 4% below the peak. -
:20:44. > :20:48.- output is still. We're in profound trouble. One of the
:20:48. > :20:53.disastrous things that happened by not joining the euro is that
:20:53. > :20:59.because the city is very big, it sat in a lot of capital abroad and
:20:59. > :21:06.pushed up the exchange rate to sky- high levels. We have had a big
:21:06. > :21:10.devaluation of more than 25%. The response has been very
:21:10. > :21:15.disappointing. We have had the guts pulled out of the backbone of our
:21:15. > :21:22.economy by not having a fixed relationship with the euro. Now I
:21:22. > :21:31.think... A witch you like to see Britain join the euro? I went. --
:21:31. > :21:39.would you like? All those rioting pictures of the Greeks, we could
:21:39. > :21:44.play pictures of last summer's riots. The Nazi party is on the
:21:44. > :21:49.rise in Greece. These riots are persistent. Use an implement over
:21:49. > :21:56.50% and being forced into a downward deflationary spiral.
:21:56. > :22:00.much better here? We're in a double-dip recession. We have Lord
:22:00. > :22:05.Monk saying that Britain should not rely on a weak currency. Will
:22:05. > :22:09.Hutton has said for too long the pound was too high. Let it float
:22:09. > :22:16.and find its level. We join the exchange-rate mechanism and saw
:22:16. > :22:21.what a total disaster it was. -- joined. We may see democracy and
:22:21. > :22:27.gross back to Europe. He neglected to mention a had a real-terms
:22:27. > :22:32.increase in public expenditure which was completely unsustainable.
:22:32. > :22:36.We went to �702 billion with a massive structural deficit. If we
:22:36. > :22:46.work in the euro, it would not have low ridges to do with monetary and
:22:46. > :22:55.fiscal policy. -- leverage us to deal. It is strange that they are
:22:55. > :23:01.not apologising for the creation of the United States of Europe. People
:23:01. > :23:07.are being forced into poverty and destitution in record numbers. We
:23:07. > :23:12.may have seen that here. It is not exactly made in Britain. There is
:23:12. > :23:21.acute poverty. There is acute poverty in Britain, acute social
:23:21. > :23:28.distress in Britain. The idea it is a Nirvana and social distress there.
:23:28. > :23:34.Why have the Greeks voted to stay in the euro? There was a centre
:23:34. > :23:41.Left movement of which was trying to get out. Everyone in the Greek
:23:41. > :23:46.election wanted to stay in the euro. We would hardly be punching above
:23:46. > :23:50.our weight. They backed of the matter is, we have more exports
:23:50. > :23:58.received from the European Union they meet export. The export more
:23:58. > :24:03.to Ireland them Russia or China. Our trade arrangements would, in
:24:03. > :24:08.any case, be guaranteed by the World Trade Organisation. The idea
:24:08. > :24:14.that we would be in a darkroom when no one would want to speak to us.
:24:14. > :24:18.There is a big world out there. We are a global trading nation.
:24:19. > :24:25.Nothing preventing us from exploiting all those opportunities.
:24:25. > :24:34.Yes, there is. I am going to stop you there. We could go on all trade.
:24:34. > :24:39.Thank you very much. -- all day. Now, how many of you remember this?
:24:39. > :24:45.British Rail have come up with something called customer care
:24:45. > :24:51.school. People will notice the difference. Sorry seems to be the
:24:51. > :24:55.hardest word. British Rail. We are getting there. Yes, it was the ill-
:24:55. > :24:58.fated attempt of British Rail to re-brand in the 1980s. Not that it
:24:58. > :25:00.did them much good! Well, today a think-tank has published a report
:25:00. > :25:03.suggesting that the national rail network should be brought back
:25:03. > :25:06.under public ownership in order to halt big fare increases and prevent
:25:07. > :25:10.private companies from making huge profits. The Labour Party are still
:25:10. > :25:13.in the middle of a policy review but are said to be interested in
:25:13. > :25:22.the idea. To find out why, we're joined by Maria Eagle, Labour's
:25:22. > :25:27.Shadow Transport Secretary. We are talking about renationalising?
:25:27. > :25:32.report says Buchan bring back part of the network into public
:25:32. > :25:39.ownership without buying out and recreating British Rail. You would
:25:39. > :25:48.not want to do that! We have made no decisions as shed. If I consider
:25:48. > :25:52.this to be an interesting contribution. -- as yet. Passengers
:25:52. > :25:57.are being clobbered with the highest fares in Europe at the same
:25:57. > :26:03.time we are putting in �4 billion of subsidy into the system. The
:26:03. > :26:07.report says the fragmentation has costs of up to �1.2 billion the
:26:07. > :26:12.year. That ought to be used instead of dealing with the preparation
:26:12. > :26:22.into running the services. We could cut fares if that were to be the
:26:22. > :26:22.
:26:22. > :26:26.place - us. Can you legislate to keep the system as was? -- the case.
:26:26. > :26:30.Labour Party policy is to say we will cap the fare rises and remove
:26:30. > :26:35.the capacity the current government has given back to increase fares by
:26:35. > :26:43.more pampered cap. We have said we would do that. The fragmentation of
:26:43. > :26:44.the industry is costing �1.2 billion a year. What would you do
:26:45. > :26:50.with the companies that are currently running the train
:26:50. > :26:55.operating services? The report suggests this is not about going am
:26:55. > :27:01.buy-out contracts. The franchises are sometimes handed back.
:27:01. > :27:09.Sometimes they do not work properly. They come to an end. At the moment,
:27:09. > :27:15.the East Coast Main Line, one of the most proper -- profitable lines,
:27:16. > :27:21.is being run by a non-profit-making company. Do you think the rises in
:27:21. > :27:26.fez up a huge issue? Rail fares in Britain have been going up in real
:27:26. > :27:33.terms since privatisation. If you are a key meeting in any part of
:27:33. > :27:38.the country, you are effectively being taxed. -- are commuting.
:27:38. > :27:43.Fragmentation does cost. There has been quite a lot of innovation
:27:43. > :27:53.being brought into the rail industry. And the investment and
:27:53. > :28:00.the money that comes with it. have state ownership of the
:28:00. > :28:07.railways. It is just not owned by the UK government. I wondered
:28:07. > :28:12.whether there might be a feature - we are talking about the John Lewis
:28:12. > :28:18.model. -- a future. It would be interesting to run the railway
:28:18. > :28:22.system like this. Employees would have a stake in running the system.
:28:22. > :28:30.It is a public service. Whether bringing it back into the kind of
:28:30. > :28:37.public ownership we saw in Britain 25, 30 years ago, is the answer, I
:28:37. > :28:43.think would be prettied of a book to sell. -- pretty difficult to
:28:43. > :28:48.sell. We are looking at whether the not the dividend model could be