:00:42. > :00:44.Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. Details emerge of
:00:44. > :00:47.the Parliamentary Commission into Banking Standards this morning, and
:00:47. > :00:51.one member of the Treasury Select Committee has already branded it a
:00:51. > :00:54."whitewash". We'll have the latest from Westminster.
:00:54. > :00:57.Almost a year on from the riots - the government announce plans to
:00:57. > :01:01.speed up the courts process. We'll ask the criminal justice minister
:01:01. > :01:04.how it will work and whether it will serve or rush justice.
:01:04. > :01:07.And we'll ask the question that really matters to voters - will the
:01:07. > :01:11.gloomy economic weather ever improve?
:01:11. > :01:14.And it's 50 years since this kindly looking gentleman did in seven of
:01:14. > :01:24.his cabinet colleagues. We'll remember Harold Macmillan and the
:01:24. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :01:40.All that in the next hour. And senses it is the final programme
:01:40. > :01:50.from the poor September -- until September, we have spared no
:01:50. > :01:55.expense. We have paid for Allister Heath, and Jackie Ashley. You don't
:01:55. > :01:58.get that on Newsnight! Let's start with that Parliamentary Commission
:01:58. > :02:03.on Banking Standards formed amid some controversy in the wake of the
:02:03. > :02:09.LIBOR scandal. We have some detail of what it will look at and who
:02:09. > :02:11.will do the looking. Let's go over to Carole Walker for the latest.
:02:11. > :02:16.Understand there is already a row about the composition of this
:02:16. > :02:21.investigation. It hasn't had the easiest of launchers. We heard this
:02:21. > :02:27.morning that the five MPs are going to be from the Treasury Select
:02:27. > :02:31.Committee, as we expected, chaired by Andrew Tyrie. He is going to be
:02:31. > :02:35.joined by Mark Garnier, a Conservative MP, for Labour there
:02:35. > :02:40.is going to be Andy Love and Pat McFadden, and John Thurso will be
:02:40. > :02:48.there for the Lib Dems. But there are no places for people like John
:02:48. > :02:53.Mann, the rather outspoken Labour member of the committee, others who
:02:53. > :02:57.had talked frankly about the committee failing to pin down Bob
:02:57. > :03:01.Diamond. People like David Ruffley, who is known as a pugnacious
:03:01. > :03:04.questioner, or Jesse Norman who clashed with the Prime Minister
:03:04. > :03:08.over Lords reform recently. John Mann has already said that he
:03:08. > :03:12.thinks the whole thing is a total joke and a whitewash, he is
:03:12. > :03:16.threatening to set up his own alternative inquiry. Given that
:03:16. > :03:20.Labour wanted a different inquiry from the start, they wanted an
:03:20. > :03:24.independent commission led by a judge, it certainly has not been
:03:24. > :03:30.the easiest of launches for this effort to try and get to the bottom
:03:30. > :03:37.of what has gone wrong with our banks. Thanks to that. An excellent
:03:37. > :03:41.summary of what the situation is. Allister Heath, John Mann can be a
:03:41. > :03:44.bit of a grandstand up. I understand that. But you do want
:03:44. > :03:48.some trouble makers, and they have kept off all the troublemakers on
:03:48. > :03:53.the right and the left. There are could be members of the House of
:03:53. > :03:58.Lords, we don't know who debt are. I bet you they are not
:03:58. > :04:04.troublemakers! But at least they have got a barrister. I would like
:04:04. > :04:07.to see some answers. I am sick of the political showcasing and
:04:07. > :04:11.grandstanding, bullying in front of cameras, what we really need are
:04:11. > :04:17.answers, and we have had too few answers. But I agree it is a bad
:04:17. > :04:22.start. On the other hand, Andrew Tyrie is someone who will want to
:04:22. > :04:31.build a name for himself, so I don't think it is a whitewash.
:04:31. > :04:37.John Mann was the people's voice, Jackie Ashley, they are not on it?
:04:37. > :04:41.At the is odd, the people who have been left off. I think John Mann
:04:41. > :04:47.does a lot of the insults, he isn't really getting into the forensic
:04:47. > :04:50.evidence. He is the Tom Watson of the select committee! People are
:04:50. > :04:57.saying that maybe Nigel Lawson might come on in the Lords, that
:04:57. > :05:02.could be interesting. But where are the women? We have got John Thurso,
:05:02. > :05:08.Andy Love... I am so glad you're noticing this! I have been noticing
:05:08. > :05:15.these things for years. He appointed the first female editor
:05:15. > :05:22.of the Scotsman? Don't start me! Pat McFadden is a man for those who
:05:22. > :05:27.don't know. We will wait to see. The point I'm making is, it doesn't
:05:27. > :05:31.seem the most high-powered committee, into a world which can
:05:31. > :05:35.cover you in cotton wool. In many ways, that is the problem with MPs.
:05:35. > :05:42.Not many are knowledgeable about the intricacies of high-level
:05:42. > :05:46.banking and so on. So maybe they will appoint other experts later.
:05:46. > :05:54.I think we have to hope for the Lords. They understand the banking
:05:54. > :05:57.industry, not many people do. talking about criminals now.
:05:57. > :06:00.Criminals could go through the justice system in a matter of hours
:06:00. > :06:03.under new plans drawn up by the government. Ministers say they were
:06:03. > :06:07.impressed by how quickly the courts dealt with the riots last year, and
:06:07. > :06:09.they're keen to use this experience to speed up the system in general.
:06:09. > :06:12.This morning the Ministry of Justice published a white paper
:06:12. > :06:16.with the title "Swift and Sure Justice", which details a number of
:06:16. > :06:18.proposals to get things moving quicker. Court hours will be more
:06:18. > :06:21.flexible, with magistrates sitting at weekends and bank holidays, and
:06:21. > :06:26.there will be more use of technology with police, defendants
:06:26. > :06:29.and witnesses being able to give evidence by video link. Magistrates
:06:29. > :06:31.could sit outside courts in places like community centres for low-
:06:31. > :06:34.level uncontested cases, and neighbourhood justice panels will
:06:34. > :06:43.be brought in to deal with anti- social behaviour and other minor
:06:43. > :06:46.offences. What's more, there will be a new "Justice Test" to help
:06:46. > :06:48.police officers on the beat make decisions on how to deal with
:06:48. > :06:55.offenders and magistrates will be able to scrutinise police use of
:06:55. > :06:58.cautions and penalty notices. Ministers hope shoplifting cases
:06:58. > :07:01.that currently take five weeks will be dealt with in 13 days or fewer
:07:01. > :07:10.in future, and some uncontested cases could take just a matter of
:07:10. > :07:16.hours. Joining me now is the Police and Criminal Justice Minister Nick
:07:16. > :07:20.Herbert who launched the white paper this morning. Is this about
:07:20. > :07:27.speeding up justice or saving money? No, it is about speeding up
:07:27. > :07:30.justice. We were impressed by the speed that justice was delivered
:07:30. > :07:36.after the riots, and the significance of that was it didn't
:07:36. > :07:41.require any legal changes, didn't compromise the rights of defendants.
:07:41. > :07:44.There was an in-built culture of delay that was applying in normal
:07:44. > :07:49.operation of criminal justice, and victims reedy lost out. It sent a
:07:49. > :07:54.clear message to offenders if these issues are brought to justice as
:07:54. > :07:58.soon as possible. We know that in many cases, because the majority of
:07:58. > :08:02.cases are uncontested, simple, don't involve going to trial, that
:08:02. > :08:07.can happen within hours and days, particularly through the use of new
:08:07. > :08:11.technology. But some of the rulings, some of the justice after the riots,
:08:11. > :08:14.it may have been something to do with the speed, they were out of
:08:14. > :08:19.kilter with the sentences normally handed out for that kind of
:08:19. > :08:23.behaviour. They were much longer. They were exemplary sentences,
:08:23. > :08:30.handed down by eight judges he thought it was necessary to send
:08:30. > :08:35.out a signal. That wasn't a speedy issue. It did clear and very clear
:08:35. > :08:39.message to the offenders, and they were upheld by the Court of Appeal,
:08:39. > :08:44.significantly. I think the public broadly judged that was right. When
:08:44. > :08:51.we were studying why cases are taking so long, and from the
:08:51. > :08:55.commission of an offence to it been sentenced in a magistrate's course,
:08:55. > :08:59.-- Court, it takes five months on average two. In the 16 weeks of
:08:59. > :09:07.time in court, there were six hours of actual work involved, the rest
:09:07. > :09:11.of the time was just delayed. So there was a cultural problem. So we
:09:11. > :09:18.can bring these cases board much more quickly, which I think is what
:09:18. > :09:22.the public wants. You are more likely to get things wrong, we all
:09:22. > :09:28.do, the more we tried to read things quickly, the more prone we
:09:28. > :09:35.are to mistakes. That must be a danger to the court system as well.
:09:35. > :09:41.Things go wrong at the moment. day will go more wrong? But can you
:09:41. > :09:45.imagine if you run an airline or any other organisation... Not in
:09:45. > :09:50.the normal course of things, you don't. There may be some
:09:50. > :09:53.cancellations, but not half of the and. There are problems at the
:09:53. > :09:57.moment, it is about making sure resources are allocated sensibly,
:09:57. > :10:02.and the judiciary are going to bring forward more straightforward
:10:02. > :10:09.cases and guilty pleas sooner, that is in the interests of justice.
:10:09. > :10:12.you have the court on your side on this? They are famous for going
:10:12. > :10:16.slowly, they run for the benefit of those to work in the courts rather
:10:16. > :10:22.than the public, do you have their agreement? Are they going to say
:10:22. > :10:27.you can do this if you give them more dosh? We are giving a stronger
:10:27. > :10:31.role for the magistracy, Victim Support welcomes this proposal. I
:10:31. > :10:37.don't think it is surprising, because I think victims of the big
:10:37. > :10:40.losers. Justice delayed is justice denied. The Magna Carter said just
:10:40. > :10:47.as it should not be delayed, and it is unnecessarily delayed in this
:10:47. > :10:51.country. I think he could be something more about the hours that
:10:51. > :10:55.the court said, because from what I understand, they sit for about in
:10:55. > :11:00.the morning and a couple of hours in the afternoon. Surely that is an
:11:00. > :11:06.easy way of getting more courses -- case it into court, rather than
:11:06. > :11:11.having this rather bizarre idea of community sentences. That is what
:11:11. > :11:17.we are putting, more flexible hours. That fits in with today's work
:11:17. > :11:21.patterns, and also fits in with where crime may be committed. We
:11:21. > :11:25.are piloting later openings in the evenings and opening on Sunday,
:11:25. > :11:30.which could eat a lot of the demand that sometimes comes in over the
:11:30. > :11:38.weekend. So it is about smarter working, modern employment
:11:38. > :11:43.practices, and the rights to show that if you have a concentration of
:11:43. > :11:46.cases, it is so important that offenders understand that sure
:11:46. > :11:50.justice will be applied. They will be dealt with immediately. It is
:11:50. > :11:55.not just about to Verity, it is about certainty that the system is
:11:55. > :12:00.going to deal with you properly. think it is good to speed the
:12:00. > :12:04.springs up, but I'm sure -- concerned about costs, and having
:12:04. > :12:10.looked at how other countries do it? Have they managed to
:12:10. > :12:15.successfully accelerate the process? But did you think there
:12:15. > :12:20.are going to be issues with the cost? It I think you're right there
:12:20. > :12:23.is a danger with cost, that is why we are putting these schemes, but
:12:23. > :12:28.the criminal justice system costs �20 billion a year, it is what the
:12:28. > :12:33.most expensive in the world. Generally, our systems that are
:12:33. > :12:36.inefficient are ones that are spending money wisely. Other
:12:36. > :12:41.systems have realised that they have to change working patterns in
:12:41. > :12:46.order to adapt. Have any other countries managed to speed up
:12:46. > :12:51.justice to the degree that you of trying to do can have you gone
:12:51. > :12:55.abroad? There is a limit to the amount we should do that, because
:12:55. > :12:59.of what we dog would do is undermine our principles of justice,
:12:59. > :13:04.that it is always fair, the people could have their day in court.
:13:05. > :13:09.We're not going to get rid of a jury trial, we have other ways we
:13:09. > :13:14.think we can deter cases answers are already coming to court without
:13:14. > :13:19.undermining that fundamental right. So it is about real issues of
:13:19. > :13:25.efficiency that we can look at. It is not just a question of saying
:13:25. > :13:31.that we are going to have caught open during the week and opening
:13:31. > :13:36.longer, criminals don't observe these hours. Some do, there are
:13:36. > :13:39.quite lazy criminals! The big question is this, when these
:13:39. > :13:45.magistrates going to the community to dish out justice, can you give
:13:45. > :13:52.us a guarantee the security will not be provided by brute force?
:13:52. > :13:54.Just to say that up and down the country, there are private sector
:13:54. > :13:59.organisations delivering criminal- justice services at this moment for
:13:59. > :14:03.police forces and prisons and courts transport, initiated by the
:14:03. > :14:10.last government. I just came in behind a plan that would have been
:14:10. > :14:14.transporting this -- prisoners to jail, police forces use the private
:14:14. > :14:19.sector to run their cells, this all happened very successfully, it
:14:19. > :14:24.reduces cost and provides a better service for the public. So is that
:14:24. > :14:31.a yes or a note? A I wasn't answering your question, of course!
:14:31. > :14:38.A I knew that! I am trying to make a wider point, I do think there is
:14:38. > :14:42.a difference between the Olympics, a huge one soft -- one-off event.
:14:42. > :14:46.This may work, but I find it hard to believe that if it does, people
:14:46. > :14:55.are going to have to work longer hours, you will need more people to
:14:55. > :15:01.speed things up, but in the end it will cost more money. Other expect
:15:01. > :15:05.-- I don't accept for dealing with inefficiency costs money. We have
:15:05. > :15:09.got to make sure of this. The justice system must be run in the
:15:09. > :15:19.interests of victims and the public. It is not run for the convenience
:15:19. > :15:21.
:15:21. > :15:23.of the professionals, that is a Do not go away. You don't need to
:15:23. > :15:26.understand quantitative easing, bond markets, futures trading or
:15:26. > :15:29.interest rates to know we have been in tricky economic times recently
:15:30. > :15:34.and most of us just want to know one thing... When might it get
:15:34. > :15:38.better? Some say growth and confidence will return late next
:15:38. > :15:48.year, others that we'll feel gloomy for much longer. Giles has been
:15:48. > :15:54.testing the economic weather and tried a bit of forecasting. NPower
:15:54. > :15:59.lots of us, asking the question, when will it all end, is a bit like
:15:59. > :16:05.the question we have all been asking about the weather? For some
:16:05. > :16:11.of us, it seems as if the prospects are really very gloomy indeed.
:16:11. > :16:19.signs are not good. It looks like we may still be in recession at the
:16:19. > :16:24.moment. Even if we do struck growing again, there is no signs it
:16:24. > :16:29.will be at previous levels. -- start growing. When Mervyn King
:16:29. > :16:34.says we're halfway through a ten- year period, that makes me very
:16:34. > :16:39.worried. When you trawl back through history and look at cans of
:16:39. > :16:46.recession stories, those continue a long time after the recession has
:16:46. > :16:51.actually ended. -- counts. problem here is not everyone's
:16:51. > :16:56.forecast is the same. Some would say things are a lot brighter and
:16:56. > :17:00.sunnier than you might expect economically. Some have a vested
:17:01. > :17:06.interest in saying that. Others point to significant independent
:17:06. > :17:12.figures suggesting things could get a lot better than we might think.
:17:12. > :17:18.am very optimistic. We have a good base to build on. Where the second
:17:18. > :17:22.largest exporter of services. We have a great base to build on. --
:17:22. > :17:28.we are the second. The Government recognises some of the challenges
:17:28. > :17:33.we are facing. One way it will feel better is the squeeze on household
:17:33. > :17:38.incomes we have had in recent years will go away. We think there will
:17:38. > :17:45.be some growth in real earnings over the next couple of years. Over
:17:45. > :17:52.the last four years, he had seen a decline of 7% in household income.
:17:52. > :17:55.-- we have seen. The real problem comes the sunshine and showers.
:17:55. > :18:00.Could it be that politicians will not tell us when the financial
:18:00. > :18:06.crisis may come to an end because the honest truth is they have no
:18:06. > :18:11.idea? I think every forecast it ever looked at, nine times out of
:18:11. > :18:16.10, it was incorrect. It is very difficult to try to predict what
:18:16. > :18:23.would happen. That is right. It is hard to make predictions about
:18:23. > :18:28.where the economy will be next week. They predict both good and bad
:18:28. > :18:34.anyway. Why might they want to float a more gloomy outlook past us
:18:34. > :18:38.poor punters? It is better to set people's expectations low and be
:18:38. > :18:46.positively surprised on the upside. Possibly you can take some credit
:18:46. > :18:51.for that surprise. And Nick Herbert is still with us. Why has our
:18:51. > :18:56.recovery been the more lacklustre of the G8 economies? All sorts of
:18:56. > :19:03.factors, including performance of the eurozone. That makes recovery
:19:03. > :19:08.slower than Germany and France. had a huge allowance of -- on
:19:08. > :19:13.financial services. It is the principal export market of Germany
:19:13. > :19:21.as well. It is not all gloom. That was drawn attention to buy some who
:19:21. > :19:28.were interviewed. If you look the Shia at the performance of our car
:19:28. > :19:33.industry, new investment and new jobs. -- this year. There was an
:19:33. > :19:40.improvement and narrowing of the trade deficit. That export was to
:19:40. > :19:44.none eurozone countries, like China. In the last two years we have
:19:44. > :19:53.created 800 Paras and private sector jobs. A lot of them part-
:19:53. > :20:00.time! -- 800,000. These are not people who wanted part-time jobs.
:20:00. > :20:06.They want full-time jobs. There have been successes. Though should
:20:06. > :20:11.be talked about as well. We have a situation where we have got on top
:20:11. > :20:15.of the deficit. That has been reduced by a quarter. The action we
:20:15. > :20:21.have taken has enabled historically low interest rates, which is
:20:21. > :20:29.incredibly important. Can I just remind you in this picture of the
:20:29. > :20:34.booming economy you are painting - overall the big picture is what
:20:34. > :20:40.matters? Living standards have been squeezed for longer and more deeply
:20:40. > :20:46.than any time since the 1920s. Unemployment is 2.5 million. There
:20:46. > :20:50.has been a growth in this economy since she came to power. There
:20:50. > :20:57.prospect of it in the foreseeable future. No one is in any doubt it
:20:57. > :21:00.was a damaging recession. We were particularly exposed to it because
:21:00. > :21:06.of our reliance on financial- services. We were ill prepared for
:21:06. > :21:12.it because we had a budget deficit. That was one problem the last
:21:12. > :21:15.government bequeathed asked. We had a massive spending problem. The
:21:15. > :21:21.bigger argument is about how to deal with these problems and the
:21:21. > :21:27.fact we have got on top of the deficit and built a strong
:21:27. > :21:36.foundations. We have produced it by a quarter. What will the deficit ft
:21:36. > :21:43.by 2015? I cannot tell you. -- deficit be. It will be higher than
:21:43. > :21:49.France and Italy and Germany today. Let me finish the point. It will
:21:49. > :21:55.still be the highest deficit of any G eight country by 2015. You know
:21:55. > :22:00.that we have a plan to eliminate the bulk of the deficit by the end
:22:00. > :22:04.of this Parliament. That is an incredibly challenging thing to do
:22:04. > :22:09.- requiring reductions in public spending. They have been opposed
:22:09. > :22:14.that at every turn by the Labour Party. When you came to power, you
:22:14. > :22:22.said you have sorted the deficit fell by 2015. In the pre-Budget
:22:22. > :22:25.report, you told us I need another two years - I need to have 2017.
:22:25. > :22:32.The Cabinet Secretary and the Governor of the Bank of England say
:22:32. > :22:36.it will wait till 2020. He did not say that about the deficit. I am
:22:36. > :22:41.reminded me of that the significant progress we have already made.
:22:41. > :22:47.is the economy not growing battle? There have been a combination of
:22:47. > :22:54.things, haven't they? -- at all. The problem in the eurozone is
:22:54. > :22:58.really serious and the collapse of demand. Very high commodity prices
:22:58. > :23:03.and this general issue of confidence. We have to be careful
:23:03. > :23:07.about talking down the things that are done. The situation is
:23:07. > :23:11.depressing. The economy is shrinking. Who knows what will
:23:11. > :23:17.happen in the third quarter? It might shrink. The Olympics will
:23:17. > :23:22.make it shrink. They're having a lot of negative effect. The
:23:22. > :23:27.Government has not done enough to boost the competitiveness of the
:23:27. > :23:33.economy. There has been too much of the old policies when it comes to
:23:33. > :23:38.many things, including monetary policy. Inflation has been too high.
:23:38. > :23:42.Inflation has started to fall a bit. Too much of the policy is about
:23:42. > :23:47.monetary policy and the idea we need to boost credit by bank
:23:47. > :23:53.lending and so on were not doing enough when it comes to the tax
:23:53. > :23:59.system and regulation. -- while not doing. The airport business is a
:23:59. > :24:06.big blunder. Planning has been made easier. I cannot see that. It is
:24:06. > :24:12.the same as before. The national debt is going up. I cannot see how
:24:12. > :24:16.we can have a proper recovery. I can't see how the forecasts of
:24:16. > :24:22.George Osborne will materialise. you sum up what is being said, you
:24:22. > :24:28.could hit the 2015 election with no growth in this economy, correct?
:24:28. > :24:33.will challenge some of those things. There have been important changes.
:24:33. > :24:41.We eliminated the jobs touch and reduced national insurance.
:24:41. > :24:47.still went up. -- jobs tax. We have reduced the amount of corporation
:24:47. > :24:52.tax. There have been apprenticeships. Changes to the way
:24:52. > :24:56.in which we employ people. It is incredibly important for
:24:56. > :25:06.competitiveness. It is wrong to suggest nothing has been done in
:25:06. > :25:11.these areas. You have put up capital gains tax and VAT. There is
:25:11. > :25:19.a massive budget deficit that has to be dealt with. We have secured a
:25:19. > :25:25.reduction in that by reducing public spending. Excuse me,
:25:25. > :25:35.minister! The figures up on your own government red boat. Most of
:25:35. > :25:40.the production in the deficit has been done by raising taxes. -- Red
:25:40. > :25:46.Book. Far too many people are out of the job -- a job as a result of
:25:46. > :25:51.spending cuts. The programme to reduce spending actually is
:25:51. > :25:56.something that has been opposed at every turn by the left and by the
:25:56. > :26:04.Labour Party. And yet it is the thing that has enabled us to build
:26:04. > :26:08.a foundation of market confidence. I think it has been perfectly clear
:26:08. > :26:13.over the last couple of years that austerity measures happened too far
:26:13. > :26:19.and too fast. There is no growth. There is no sign of anything yet,
:26:19. > :26:24.is there? I gave a list of things where there were signs. What we
:26:24. > :26:29.should do now is to increase public spending and have more borrowing
:26:29. > :26:33.with all the consequences that will have in terms of market confidence.
:26:33. > :26:40.As a consequence of that a rise in interest rates will be the worst
:26:40. > :26:46.thing we can do. What a bad if unemployment keeps going up? --
:26:46. > :26:52.what about. I talked about the creation of private sector jobs. We
:26:52. > :26:58.heard a big structural problem of youth unemployment, even in the
:26:58. > :27:03.good years. -- had. There are fundamental problems we need to
:27:03. > :27:10.address. That is linked to welfare reforms. All of these measures are
:27:10. > :27:16.incredibly important. We have brought forward the structure.
:27:16. > :27:24.You're in an interesting position. One person wants a lot more supply-
:27:24. > :27:34.side reform. Someone else who wants a more traditional Keynesian
:27:34. > :27:35.
:27:35. > :27:41.stimulus. You do not satisfy either of these. What they're doing is not
:27:41. > :27:47.working. There is a different stimulus. There are considerable
:27:47. > :27:53.military activities going on to release credit into the economy. --
:27:53. > :27:58.monetary. The pundits warned they said that would have inflationary
:27:58. > :28:02.consequences. It is coming down. We have an National Loans guarantee
:28:02. > :28:08.scheme. There is a new lending scheme in order to try to get
:28:08. > :28:13.lending to business. Lending is still not coming through. There has
:28:13. > :28:21.been a huge problem with that. We have announced a new scheme with
:28:21. > :28:29.that. This 325 billion and another 50 that has gone into the economy,
:28:29. > :28:34.where is that money? There is a problem that banks have not been
:28:34. > :28:44.lending to small businesses. We have set up the loan guarantee
:28:44. > :28:45.
:28:45. > :28:52.scheme in order to incentivised that. -- incentivised. Where is the
:28:52. > :28:59.325 billion? Where has it gone? is in the economy. Somewhere but no
:28:59. > :29:09.one can find it. It is not in the pay-off of Bob Diamond, is it? You
:29:09. > :29:11.
:29:11. > :29:16.have been a good sport. They are very hostile. I apologise. He is a
:29:16. > :29:20.feminist. We are off now! Thanks for coming in. If I do not see you
:29:20. > :29:23.again, have a good summer. Government plans to clean up
:29:23. > :29:25.lobbying have been thrown into doubt today. A scathing report from
:29:25. > :29:28.the Political and Constitutional Affairs Committee says the
:29:28. > :29:30.Government's plans will only scratch the surface and do little
:29:30. > :29:33.to improve transparency. The Government is planning to introduce
:29:33. > :29:36.a statutory register of all those who lobby on behalf of third
:29:36. > :29:38.parties. But the committee says this plan should be scrapped and,
:29:38. > :29:48.instead, regulations should be introduced to cover all those who
:29:48. > :29:51.lobby professionally. Not just businesses but charities, trade
:29:51. > :29:54.unions and so on. You may remember that, before he became Prime
:29:54. > :30:01.Minister, David Cameron identified lobbying as a major problem and
:30:01. > :30:07.pledged to sort it out. Let's look at what he said: It is the next big
:30:07. > :30:12.scandal waiting to happen. It is an issue which crosses party lines and
:30:12. > :30:18.has tainted politics for too long. It exposes the far too cosy
:30:18. > :30:25.relationship between politics, government, business and money. I
:30:25. > :30:30.am talking about lobbying. We know how it works - the lunches, the
:30:30. > :30:36.hospitality - advisers for hire. Helping big business to get its way.
:30:36. > :30:41.In this party we believe in competition and not cronyism. We
:30:41. > :30:47.believe in market economics and not crony capitalism. We must sort this
:30:47. > :30:56.Joining me now from Cardiff is the Labour MP Paul Flynn who sits on
:30:56. > :31:00.the Committee, and here. Let me come to you first. But the
:31:00. > :31:05.committee doesn't like would be government plans because you don't
:31:06. > :31:11.think it goes far enough. expression we news is that it only
:31:12. > :31:19.scratches the surface. 95% of lobbyists will be left off the hook.
:31:19. > :31:24.We heard the words of David Cameron, he was a lobbyist in his previous
:31:25. > :31:29.incarnation, had he says it means money buying power and PoW fishing
:31:29. > :31:36.for money. What has he done in a government? Absolutely nothing to
:31:36. > :31:40.reform it. The great crusade against lobbying has sunk his snout
:31:40. > :31:46.so deeply into the trough that or you can see are the sort of his
:31:46. > :31:51.Gucci shoes. We have seen scandal after scandal, at the worst was
:31:51. > :31:58.decried as a scandal, when it included buying a place to sit at
:31:58. > :32:03.David Cameron's table, �250,000 was the charge made it you wanted to
:32:03. > :32:07.dine with the Prime Minister. We have seen the scandals over Liam
:32:07. > :32:11.Fox, what was going on with a lobbyist influencing... I didn't
:32:11. > :32:19.want you to get everything knock on won't answer! For me the biggest
:32:19. > :32:29.revelation was that you pick the Prime Minister wears Gucci shoes!
:32:29. > :32:33.He is up to his... Jane Wilson, using to be happy -- you seemed to
:32:33. > :32:36.be happy that they go to drop his plan to register them. We were in
:32:36. > :32:42.the unusual position when we gave evidence one said this proposal
:32:42. > :32:49.didn't go far enough, but it did scratch the surface. The committee
:32:49. > :32:55.came back as they have and we think if a register has to be universal,
:32:55. > :33:00.everyone who lobbies professionally. What would be wrong with that?
:33:00. > :33:05.agree with that very much, this is support from all parties, and
:33:05. > :33:09.virtually all witnesses. The Tory majority on the committee agree
:33:09. > :33:14.that the government proposal doesn't go far enough, and the
:33:15. > :33:18.lobbyists who gave evidence also do same thing. That we must have root-
:33:18. > :33:23.and-branch reform of lobbying, or we will continue to have a
:33:23. > :33:28.government that is up for sale to stop there is a claim that �92
:33:28. > :33:33.million was spent by the financial industry last year it in order to
:33:33. > :33:38.subvert government policy. What we see his policies are been corrupted
:33:38. > :33:42.by the influence of lobbyists, the government are leaning over and
:33:42. > :33:49.taking the money from the lobbyists and altering their policies
:33:49. > :33:54.accordingly. There is a very good system for non for profit pensions,
:33:54. > :34:00.and that was watered down because of the cash spent by the financial
:34:00. > :34:05.industry to subvert government. me bringing Jane Wilson here. Do
:34:05. > :34:12.you want a register of lobbyists? Or we think the government is
:34:12. > :34:16.intent on registering lobbyists. What is your policy? We think a
:34:16. > :34:20.register could improve transparency, it could be a good thing, and did
:34:20. > :34:25.the problem is transparency, this could go some way to preventing it.
:34:25. > :34:33.Do you think everybody should be on this register, she did include a --
:34:33. > :34:36.charities, who are huge lobbyists in their own right? We used to it
:34:36. > :34:43.frees are no good cause exemptions. We think the financial burden
:34:43. > :34:50.should be looked at, but charitable organisations, with the Charities
:34:50. > :34:55.Act been overturned, they have them as campaigners. The I think they
:34:55. > :34:59.should all be registered, wheelie bin transparent times, and I think
:34:59. > :35:03.it is time we should have everybody registered. I did something
:35:03. > :35:06.ridiculous is happening, which is that all the pressure from
:35:06. > :35:11.businesses is happening privately, it should have been publicly. They
:35:11. > :35:16.should be an open debate about political stop I'm a business
:35:16. > :35:21.journalist, they never talk on the record but they spend money on
:35:21. > :35:24.lobbyists. What do you think will happen next? There will be an
:35:24. > :35:30.announcement next week and I think the Government will stick to an
:35:30. > :35:34.inadequate policy. But I believe that all parties, all of the
:35:34. > :35:40.witnesses who came before our committees said the same thing. We
:35:40. > :35:43.need a reform similar to what they have had in the US and Canada,
:35:43. > :35:53.otherwise they might well be a collapse of trust in the political
:35:53. > :35:53.
:35:53. > :35:59.system. We shall see what happens. Both of you, thank you very much.
:35:59. > :36:06.It was a political whodunnit that wasn't hard to sort of. Because it
:36:06. > :36:09.was the Prime Minister in Number 10, the night of a very long knife.
:36:09. > :36:11.It's 50 years ago today - Friday 13th - since mild-mannered Harold
:36:11. > :36:15.Macmillan carried out the most brutal reshuffle in British
:36:15. > :36:18.political history. We'll discuss that - and whether David Cameron
:36:18. > :36:22.might have a reshuffle up his sleeve - in a moment, but first
:36:22. > :36:32.here's a familiar face who had a ringside seat on the Night of the
:36:32. > :36:37.
:36:37. > :36:43.50 years ago the Prime Minister Harold Bellman and carried out one
:36:43. > :36:47.of the most dramatic and bloody reshuffles in political history, he
:36:47. > :36:53.sacked seven of his Cabinet. The most prominent was the Chancellor
:36:53. > :37:03.of the Exchequer. I was working as a young intern for Selwyn Lloyd, so
:37:03. > :37:04.
:37:05. > :37:11.The day started with me bringing in the newspapers to Selwyn Lloyd in
:37:11. > :37:18.his flat, about 745 at him, and suddenly our eyes: the headline in
:37:18. > :37:23.the Daily Mail. It it's at least said, the Chancellor is going to be
:37:24. > :37:30.sacked. He said this was just a journalist pasha. Then there was a
:37:30. > :37:35.big surprise mid-morning. Suddenly there appeared in the Chancellor's
:37:35. > :37:39.office the private sector -- secretary of the Prime Minister. He
:37:40. > :37:45.astonished us by saying, I'm afraid my master has some bad news for
:37:45. > :37:50.your master. De Prime Minister has decided to after be charged led to
:37:50. > :37:57.resign. I wonder if you wouldn't mind breaking this bad news 2
:37:57. > :38:07.Selwyn Lloyd? I said, bloody well tell him yourself! He didn't want
:38:07. > :38:07.
:38:07. > :38:10.to pass this on pre- 19-year-old student. Macmillan himself called
:38:10. > :38:14.Selwyn Lloyd the most loyal colleague he had ever had, they
:38:14. > :38:19.have been close colleagues for a long time. I spent the evening with
:38:19. > :38:23.a man who was shattered, several whiskies were poured out, suddenly
:38:23. > :38:28.the door bell rang, and the person at the door was the Post Office
:38:28. > :38:38.engineer he said, I have come to remove the high-security scrambler
:38:38. > :38:38.
:38:38. > :38:46.telephone. I remember thinking, how quickly power fades. It was botched
:38:46. > :38:50.because it was done not in a carefully planned operation,
:38:50. > :38:54.scheduled in Manila in's mind, it had to be brought forward in a
:38:54. > :39:01.great panic because of the leak. Harold Goodman ended badly and
:39:01. > :39:07.whose belief. -- Harold Macmillan. The first lesson is, don't rush
:39:07. > :39:12.into it. It is not a bad idea to rejuvenate a government. But if
:39:13. > :39:21.you're going to do it, do it more skilfully and thoughtfully and
:39:21. > :39:28.strategically than the Night of the I'm joined now by Jonathan Aitken
:39:28. > :39:33.and by Peter Riddell from the Institute for Government. Let's
:39:33. > :39:39.just remember what the context was. The Tories had been in power for 11
:39:39. > :39:45.years by then. The government seemed to be belonging to a
:39:45. > :39:49.different Britain, the government wasn't that popular, there were
:39:49. > :39:55.problems with inflation and strikes. Harold Macmillan seemed to belong
:39:55. > :40:02.to the Edwardian age to stop this was a dramatic attempt at to
:40:02. > :40:06.Cardiff could the government into the 1960s? It was, but no one
:40:06. > :40:11.needed dragging more than Harold Macmillan himself, who was the
:40:11. > :40:18.personification of it, and in that interview I tried to reconstruct
:40:18. > :40:27.between self and -- Selvan Lloyd and him, Selwyn Lloyd said to him,
:40:27. > :40:34.of course of my job is disposable, but by air for a great worry that I
:40:34. > :40:39.will turn out to be Strafford to your King Charles at first. That is
:40:39. > :40:46.what turned out to happen. But in the end, in a centre it almost
:40:46. > :40:54.worked. Because the Tories did change things, picking someone with
:40:54. > :41:00.an even bigger grasp for image. They brought in Douglas-Home. Be
:41:00. > :41:06.brought in to be younger names. By 1964, after 13 years of Tory rule,
:41:06. > :41:12.in a vastly changing Britain, Harold Wilson managed to win by
:41:12. > :41:18.Annie four seats. You have given an interesting point, everyone looks
:41:18. > :41:25.at the drama, the mistakes made, but the key to reshuffles is, do
:41:25. > :41:33.they result in a change of policy? Objection to Selwyn Lloyd was the
:41:33. > :41:36.sense that he was too much a cautious Chancellor. What happened
:41:36. > :41:41.was that led to an expansionary policy, that is really what
:41:41. > :41:48.produced such a close result, because there was an enormous boom.
:41:48. > :41:55.The Hanover last of for the rest of the Sixties. Most people don't care
:41:55. > :41:59.who moved, but if it results in a change of policy, that is where the
:41:59. > :42:04.evidence shows. This was a reshuffle that did have that impact.
:42:04. > :42:10.Would any Prime Minister attempt to do this sort of thing to date?
:42:11. > :42:15.Margaret Thatcher, when she moved Geoffrey Howe out of the foreign
:42:15. > :42:22.office, that was a botched job for all kinds of reasons, there was a
:42:22. > :42:25.row about who was going to live in which house, but seven other
:42:25. > :42:32.cabinet ministers changed jobs, it camouflaged the fact that she was
:42:32. > :42:38.really getting rid of one. I have seen reshuffles go wrong again.
:42:38. > :42:43.many lessons, I would suggest for David Cameron. Do you see any
:42:43. > :42:49.reshuffle? I think even this morning, people are saying, is it
:42:49. > :42:53.coming this side of the recess? think he will. The problem for
:42:53. > :42:58.David Cameron is he would love to reshuffle some of the Lib Dems! But
:42:59. > :43:04.of course he can't. So he was stuck with those elements. Should he
:43:04. > :43:07.change his Chancellor? I think there is a growing case, I think by
:43:07. > :43:11.September or October he's going to have to think about that carefully.
:43:11. > :43:19.I'm not advocating what we saw in those days, but I don't think
:43:19. > :43:27.they'd Cameron says it is sticking to along to the same people to stop
:43:27. > :43:34.even though the policies are not working. I think the fault in the
:43:34. > :43:39.years between Blair and Gordon Brown was the constant her labour.
:43:39. > :43:42.-- turnover. You have got to balance out not only the people but
:43:43. > :43:47.also the jobs. If you make the business secretary a Tory, when are
:43:47. > :43:51.you going to get an Lib-Dem? That is why many conditions have very
:43:51. > :43:55.few reshuffles. The Germans didn't know what the reshuffle meant, they
:43:55. > :44:00.thought it was some weird British thing. In the Scottish coalition,
:44:00. > :44:08.they hardly had any. The headline, Night of the Long Knives, that was
:44:08. > :44:14.in the Express at the time? I think it was. That is the days it was the
:44:14. > :44:18.most influential paper in the country. I think it brought back
:44:18. > :44:23.memories of Nazi Germany, as well? I think that is where the original
:44:23. > :44:31.phrase came from, it was at an episode of German history when all
:44:31. > :44:35.sorts of people were butchered. But he made a brilliant comeback, a
:44:35. > :44:41.great lesson for how to behave after you are sacked. Most people
:44:41. > :44:45.get bitter and angry, but Selwyn Lloyd was impeccable. People kept
:44:45. > :44:50.saying, he is behaving so well. He has been badly done by the stock
:44:51. > :44:55.must be a way of bringing him back. That is exactly what happened.
:44:55. > :45:00.Although this was an attempt to modernise the Macmillan
:45:00. > :45:04.Conservatives at the time, when it came to the succession to Macmillan
:45:04. > :45:08.himself, Iain Macleod was still able to write that this was
:45:08. > :45:17.entirely a magic circle of old Etonians that had taken the
:45:17. > :45:22.decision to bring in Alec Douglas- Home. But another thing was Butler,
:45:22. > :45:32.who was the source of the Daily Mail story. Do we know that for
:45:32. > :45:38.sure? Absolutely. He was a Labour supporter? By a clutch of course
:45:38. > :45:48.wanted to do everything -- but of course wanted to do everything he
:45:48. > :45:52.
:45:52. > :46:02.could. Macmillan wanted to exclude Do not go away. We are sticking
:46:02. > :46:04.
:46:04. > :46:12.with a theme. It is Friday the 13th. Today can be a man lacking day. --
:46:12. > :46:22.an unlucky day. What better than a Daily Politics celebration of the
:46:22. > :46:28.
:46:28. > :46:38.There are plenty of elections around the world where candidates
:46:38. > :46:40.
:46:40. > :46:44.are cheated of victory by cheating. But when you are standing for the
:46:44. > :46:47.most important office in the world, you don't expect to lose the race
:46:47. > :46:50.on a technical glitch - foiled by hanging cads - despite getting more
:46:50. > :46:53.votes than the other guy! -- chads. You're the front runner. The MPs
:46:53. > :47:00.have voted for you, the party members have voted for you. And
:47:00. > :47:06.then on the final transfer of votes you get beaten by your kid brother.
:47:06. > :47:14.Never more have the words you are so getting Bob quashed after this
:47:14. > :47:19.being carefully whispered. The career of Michael Portillo was
:47:19. > :47:29.interrupted by the voters of Enfield. By the time he finally did
:47:29. > :47:33.
:47:33. > :47:35.get to run for the leadership, he missed the train and came in third.
:47:36. > :47:39.Speaking of which, meet William Huskisson, Liverpool MP and former
:47:39. > :47:42.President of the Board of Trade, who went to Manchester to open the
:47:42. > :47:45.world's first passenger railway and while doing so got run over by one
:47:45. > :47:47.becoming the world's first railway casualty, the first person to be
:47:48. > :47:50.taken to hospital on a train and the first railway fatality!
:47:50. > :47:58.Portillo should make a programme about him. And, finally, why keep
:47:58. > :48:03.all the bad luck to yourself, when you can redistribute it? Mate Lib
:48:03. > :48:10.Dem Lem bit opaque. He backed Charles Kennedy. He lost his own
:48:10. > :48:20.seat despite a large swing to the Lib Dems nationally. -- at Lembit
:48:20. > :48:23.
:48:23. > :48:27.Jonathan Aitken and Peter Red Rock are still with us. Napoleon said he
:48:28. > :48:34.needed lucky generals and not just military experts. Politicians need
:48:34. > :48:40.to be lucky as well, don't they? Timing is key. You want to go into
:48:40. > :48:44.Parliament on the upswing for your party. We have had two long periods
:48:45. > :48:49.of one-party rule. A lot of Labour politicians never made it to the
:48:49. > :48:56.Cabinet. They did not have ministerial careers at all. 18
:48:56. > :49:06.years later, they were in that early Forties. They were touching
:49:06. > :49:06.
:49:06. > :49:16.60 and did not have Koreas. Exactly 60 and did not have Koreas. Exactly
:49:16. > :49:21.
:49:21. > :49:28.. Margaret Thatcher had Arthur Scargill running the coal miners'
:49:28. > :49:35.union. She was lucky in enemies. She had a counter of bailing
:49:35. > :49:40.tendency which was incredible tenacity. Another politician on the
:49:40. > :49:47.other side of the Atlantic, Richard Nixon, was very unhappy at one
:49:47. > :49:55.stage. He won the election in 1960. That was very bad luck. He fought
:49:55. > :50:01.back against continuous faults. In the end he got elected. Then he had
:50:01. > :50:07.some rotten luck over Watergate. Where you are unlucky or lucky as a
:50:07. > :50:12.politician? I made my own luck. Sometimes events for the away.
:50:12. > :50:15.Sometimes you can help events to for your way. Sometimes you can be
:50:15. > :50:25.caught but something that - as a good buy something that really is
:50:25. > :50:31.bad luck. Two-year member Neil Kinnock on the beach? -- caught by
:50:31. > :50:36.something that really is bad luck. Little things like that, it is
:50:36. > :50:41.really bad luck. They took you for years to come these images. Tony
:50:41. > :50:47.Blair was quite lucky as a politician to begin with. He says
:50:47. > :50:57.he had the bad luck of some vehicle Gordon Brown next door. He also
:50:57. > :51:02.
:51:02. > :51:08.chose his luck. I still think it is about management ability and
:51:08. > :51:17.choices. In recent times, who has been a lucky politician? I agree,
:51:17. > :51:24.Tony Blair. He got out at the right time. There was an element of
:51:24. > :51:30.Margaret Thatcher. Tony Blair had more perfect timing. I nominate
:51:30. > :51:40.John Major. He was fairly obscure as a Cabinet minister. Raptures at
:51:40. > :51:42.
:51:42. > :51:48.the top and he shot up. All things to all men! -- ructions. Then of
:51:48. > :51:54.course he had something wrong with him when he had to step up.
:51:54. > :52:00.wisdom teeth! That was lucky. Great fun to go with these things. Back
:52:00. > :52:10.to modern times. It has been another seven days in coalition
:52:10. > :52:12.
:52:12. > :52:17.land. Here it is ever fresher of the be combined in 60 seconds. --
:52:17. > :52:24.the week gone by. The Buckley's rate fixing scandal rumbled on.
:52:24. > :52:30.George Osborne tried to pin it on to the last Labour government. Was
:52:30. > :52:37.it the Chancellor's finest hour? No answer. Tory MPs are revolting. Ask
:52:37. > :52:45.David Cameron. 91 of his troops rebelled over reform. The PM was
:52:45. > :52:50.ready to point the finger at the ringleader. It turned at G4S had
:52:50. > :52:56.provided the few and not the many in terms of security staff for the
:52:56. > :53:06.Olympic site. He called in the Army. PMQs is normally pretty rowdy but
:53:06. > :53:07.
:53:07. > :53:16.the volume turned up to 11 this week. Did not quite catch that!
:53:16. > :53:25.High time for a bit of recess banter. Watch out for the arm!
:53:25. > :53:33.Where does the coalition go from here? There used to be talk of a
:53:33. > :53:39.so-called coalition 2.0. On that front, things have gone curiously
:53:39. > :53:47.quiet. Is it possible the idea has been quietly dropped? We are joined
:53:47. > :53:54.by Linda Jack, who may be able to shed some light. As far as I
:53:55. > :53:59.understand it, there will be a mid- term review. It will look at how
:53:59. > :54:04.the coalition has come along in terms of the objectives. Whether
:54:04. > :54:12.they have been met or not. It is about embedding those objectives.
:54:12. > :54:17.The whole idea of actually having a follow-up coalition 2.0 has been
:54:17. > :54:22.dropped. That is a bit sad really. Isn't the reason they are doing
:54:22. > :54:28.this because they cannot agree on anything to go forward? The one
:54:28. > :54:31.thing they have stuck to together has been deficit reduction. Despite
:54:31. > :54:35.people like me trying committee cannot get a cigarette paper
:54:36. > :54:39.between the two party leaders and their spokesmen on that. They have
:54:39. > :54:43.discovered that is about the only thing they agree on. There is
:54:43. > :54:51.probably an element of truth in that. I was not in favour of the
:54:51. > :54:58.coalition agreement. You wanted another agreement on Mark 2? If we
:54:58. > :55:02.were going to be stuck there, we ought to have a Mark 2. It is
:55:02. > :55:08.important for us. When we were discussing it, the feeling was it
:55:08. > :55:12.would give us more leverage if there was an agreement. We a seeing
:55:12. > :55:16.people like Michael Gove coming out with another announcement. They
:55:16. > :55:26.will get their policies in through the back door. Who pulled the plug
:55:26. > :55:28.
:55:28. > :55:38.on there? I have no idea. I do! You do! I presume the quartet. Which
:55:38. > :55:38.
:55:38. > :55:45.one Aberu Kebede in the quartet? A tall, angular chap. -- which one in
:55:45. > :55:53.the quartet? It was Danny Alexander who told us that the plug had been
:55:53. > :55:59.pulled. The problem, at the moment, they have either implemented bits
:55:59. > :56:03.of the original agreement or they are unable to do House of Lords
:56:03. > :56:08.reform. It is kind of done. They have still have another three years
:56:08. > :56:13.to go before the next election. Without a programme they are more
:56:13. > :56:21.of a Mikey just to fight all the time. What will make do for the
:56:21. > :56:26.next few years? -- more likely just to fight. The idea it is just going
:56:26. > :56:29.to the House of Lords for the next three years has gone out of the
:56:29. > :56:33.window. The Conservatives are still insisting that the Lib Dems have
:56:34. > :56:42.done brilliantly out of this. They have all their demands and the
:56:42. > :56:46.Tories have nothing. The dilemma we have at the moment is I think we
:56:46. > :56:50.are continually being caught on the back foot. Another idea comes out
:56:51. > :56:55.and we just have to make a public denouncement of it all just go
:56:55. > :56:59.along with it. At least the coalition agreement has some
:56:59. > :57:04.framework around it. You could say it was not in the coalition
:57:04. > :57:08.agreement. The Lib Dems are not coming up with their own ideas.
:57:09. > :57:14.is frustrating for those of us who work on the committee. A lot of
:57:14. > :57:20.work went into the mid-term review. Some of them you will see at
:57:20. > :57:26.conference. Was it the idea Beth they should go forward to make up a
:57:26. > :57:31.new coalition agreement? -- that. The committee and the conference
:57:31. > :57:38.could vote on it - whether they liked it or not. You would not be
:57:38. > :57:43.able to determine what was inept. will come to you in a second. -- in
:57:43. > :57:47.it. Denny think it's more likely that some time in 2014, you will
:57:47. > :57:52.both go your separate ways? Not that that will provoke an election.
:57:52. > :57:56.The Conservatives will continue as a minority government. You will
:57:56. > :58:06.both go your separate ways and you will both want to say you can re-
:58:06. > :58:15.establish its own individual identities. That is quite important.
:58:15. > :58:19.I would like it done tomorrow. it will happen in 2014, why not
:58:20. > :58:25.2013? When you start to talk about it all the time you have a big
:58:26. > :58:31.issue. The first ticking time bomb is the economy. Budget deficit may
:58:31. > :58:36.be increasing again and the economy shrinking. The second thing is
:58:36. > :58:43.Europe. What will happen with that and any new constitutional treaty?
:58:43. > :58:50.What will the UK do about it. is it for today. Thank you to all