:00:47. > :00:51.Good afternoon. Welcome to The Daily Politics. The unions appear
:00:51. > :00:57.to be having a grand day out at their conference in brighten town.
:00:57. > :01:02.But are more strikes looming? We will be speaking to Brendan Barber,
:01:02. > :01:06.the General Secretary of the TUC. just want to say what a golden
:01:06. > :01:13.summer it has been. It has given the country a tremendous lift. It
:01:13. > :01:16.has brought the country together. We will be looking back at
:01:16. > :01:22.Britain's golden summer of sport and asking just what we can learn
:01:22. > :01:28.from it. Can this man succeed where others have failed? He wants to
:01:28. > :01:31.slash-and-burn red tape. We will see how he will do it. And we will
:01:31. > :01:41.be asking if the Government can actually do anything about the cost
:01:41. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :01:47.of living. With us for the first half an hour today, the founder of
:01:47. > :01:53.moneysavingexpert.com, Martin Lewis. Welcome back. First today, let's
:01:53. > :01:57.talk about the London Olympics. Alas, it is over. Today, around one
:01:57. > :02:01.million people are expected to line the streets of London to cheer
:02:01. > :02:05.Britain's Olympic and Paralympic heroes. This is what the Prime
:02:06. > :02:11.Minister had to say earlier. At the end of the most unbelievably
:02:11. > :02:14.successful Olympics and Paralympics, I just want to say what a golden
:02:14. > :02:18.summer of British sport we have had, and what a golden summer it has
:02:18. > :02:21.been for the country. It has given the country a tremendous lift, and
:02:21. > :02:27.it has brought the country together. It has given us memories that we
:02:27. > :02:31.will be talking about for years and generations to come. I think 2012
:02:31. > :02:35.will be like 1966, something we talk about without children and
:02:35. > :02:43.grandchildren, something which will continue to delight us, long after
:02:43. > :02:46.this time has passed. We can speak now to one of
:02:46. > :02:49.Britain's greatest Paralympians, Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson.
:02:49. > :02:54.Presumably you would agree, it has been the greatest a Olympics and
:02:55. > :02:59.Paralympic Games ever. It has been amazing, not just because of Team
:02:59. > :03:05.GB and ParalympicsGB, but because of the organisation. Seb Coe's idea
:03:05. > :03:11.was to put athletes at the heart of the Games, and it has made it an
:03:11. > :03:15.amazingly enjoyable experience for everybody. David Cameron said the
:03:15. > :03:20.UK will -- Lord Coe also said that the UK will never think of
:03:20. > :03:23.disability in the same way - do you agree? Definitely. There has been a
:03:23. > :03:27.change of perception. People were coming out of the venues talking
:03:27. > :03:31.about the sport, much less about the disability. I did not hear
:03:31. > :03:35.people talking about overcoming adversity, which was a great relief
:03:35. > :03:39.to everybody. But it is difficult to measure how attitudes will
:03:39. > :03:44.change going forward. But I think people are more positive about
:03:44. > :03:47.disabled people. One year on, it is important that we remember back to
:03:47. > :03:52.how everybody felt at this time. The Olympics and Paralympics, they
:03:52. > :03:56.are not reality, they are fairy dust. That glow will disappear.
:03:56. > :04:06.you think it will be different this time, or do you think that in six
:04:06. > :04:07.
:04:07. > :04:13.months' time, all of that euphoria will have faded? I think they will
:04:13. > :04:17.definitely have moved forwards. There is a real glow about how
:04:17. > :04:22.everybody feels at the moment, but I Dusan so different attitude from
:04:22. > :04:26.people. People are coming up to be in the streets, saying, I have seen
:04:26. > :04:30.disabled people in a new way. I have realised that I am one step
:04:30. > :04:35.away from it myself. Anybody can have an accident and it can change
:04:35. > :04:39.their lives. Yes, that in itself can be hugely positive. All this
:04:39. > :04:46.talk about harnessing the spirit of the Paralympics, it is all very
:04:46. > :04:50.well to say it, but how does it work? Part of it is about how we
:04:50. > :04:54.can join everything up after deep for tears. In politics, we talk
:04:54. > :05:02.about sport or health or education, and it would be great to link all
:05:02. > :05:07.of those up. There will be children turning up at sports clubs, wanting
:05:07. > :05:11.to be the next Victoria Pendleton, or the next Sarah Storey. Then they
:05:11. > :05:15.will realise how hard it but we have to think about how we can
:05:15. > :05:25.change the culture of participation. We are becoming more unhealthy as a
:05:25. > :05:26.
:05:26. > :05:31.nation, and that needs to change. It sounds amazing in the background,
:05:31. > :05:38.so have a great afternoon on the parade.
:05:38. > :05:42.Martin Lewis, your impressions, I used adages over? Very much so. I
:05:42. > :05:48.am a proper track-and-field fan, I go to track-and-field events during
:05:48. > :05:53.the year. So this was really special for me. And also, it cannot
:05:53. > :05:57.be underestimated how much it means to have four or five weeks off the
:05:57. > :06:01.doom and gloom of the economy. It is good for the psyche of the
:06:01. > :06:09.nation. Now, we have to manage ourselves back into hearing about
:06:09. > :06:11.the euro crisis and everything. also think it is good for the
:06:11. > :06:15.country, we have shown that we can organise things very well,
:06:15. > :06:18.efficiently, and that people in this country will really get into
:06:18. > :06:23.things. The white elephant in the room is the enormous amount of
:06:23. > :06:27.money that this has cost. In a way, it almost feels like, let's not get
:06:27. > :06:31.back into that just yet. Will we recoup what we spent or even come
:06:31. > :06:35.close to it? But the truth is, that money has been spent, we are never
:06:35. > :06:40.getting it back if we do not recoup it, everybody has had a good time,
:06:40. > :06:45.so let's celebrate that. But the real question now is, what colour
:06:45. > :06:49.medal will be good for legacy? Has the money gone far enough? Teva the
:06:49. > :06:52.jury is still out on that. We will be talking a bit more about whether
:06:52. > :06:56.politicians have managed to get some of the Stardust and whether
:06:56. > :07:00.the economy has benefited, later in the programme. Now, let's talk
:07:00. > :07:04.about red tape. The Government says it wants to get rid of it, or at
:07:04. > :07:08.least, rather a lot of it. Hundreds of thousands of businesses across
:07:08. > :07:12.the UK are to be exempted from health and safety inspections,
:07:12. > :07:17.under new changes to be introduced next year. It is what ministers are
:07:17. > :07:21.calling a blitz on red tape, which will see 3,000 regulations
:07:21. > :07:29.affecting businesses in England scrapped or overhauled. Joining us
:07:29. > :07:35.now from brighten is Martin Smith of the GMB union. The Government
:07:35. > :07:39.says this is all to help business - surely it is a good thing? It is a
:07:39. > :07:43.rehash of an old announcement which was made 18 months ago. We have got
:07:43. > :07:47.to look at the politics of it. Our view has not changed, which is that
:07:47. > :07:50.this sends the wrong message to small and medium businesses, who
:07:50. > :07:55.might hear that the inspection regime has changed, so they might
:07:55. > :07:58.think they are exempt from health and safety rules. We think it will
:07:58. > :08:02.save hardly anything, it actually, some people will get into trouble
:08:02. > :08:06.with their health because of it. It is just not worth doing. So the
:08:06. > :08:14.Government is obviously not going to get your support, but does that
:08:14. > :08:18.apply to all of these 3,000 regulations? Well, we do not know
:08:18. > :08:26.the detail of these regulations, but we are very concerned to make
:08:26. > :08:31.sure that our members enjoy a health -- healthy and safe work
:08:31. > :08:34.place. We know that 10% of our members, in retail, for example,
:08:34. > :08:39.have had an accident in the last year, meaning that they have had
:08:39. > :08:43.time off work. We spoke to two major retail change, and they said
:08:43. > :08:48.to us, they do not think these changes will help them. They need
:08:48. > :08:54.regulations to help them manage risks in the workplace. Which
:08:54. > :08:58.retail chains are these? We have a lot of members in major retail
:08:58. > :09:03.change, and two of the big four, we have spoken to this morning. --
:09:03. > :09:12.retail chains. They are saying, they need to manage risks, they
:09:12. > :09:15.agree with us, they need the regulatory framework. They need to
:09:15. > :09:19.make the workplace save, not only for their work force, but for
:09:19. > :09:29.shoppers as well. What do you make of the new Business Secretary
:09:29. > :09:32.
:09:32. > :09:37.saying, he wants business to react positively to this? He says he will
:09:37. > :09:41.be championing business in his new department. I'm sure he will do
:09:41. > :09:44.that. And the unions will champion the interests of working people.
:09:44. > :09:48.That is perfectly understandable. But when it comes to health and
:09:48. > :09:51.safety, we work together with employers, where we can, to limit
:09:51. > :09:55.the number of accidents and unhealthy work practices. We do not
:09:55. > :10:01.want to be chasing after employers, after an accident has happened, so
:10:01. > :10:05.we want a good regulatory framework. But surely, there is also room for
:10:05. > :10:08.you to be championing small businesses, to take on more people,
:10:08. > :10:13.to free them up from some of the restrictions and limitations, even
:10:13. > :10:16.if it is only for a limited amount of time? Well, some of these
:10:16. > :10:20.limitations which they talk about are making sure that there are
:10:20. > :10:24.enough wheels on the chairs in the office, making sure there are no
:10:24. > :10:28.trip hazards. Any responsible employer would do this anyway. I do
:10:28. > :10:32.not see how this can be a saving for small businesses. It is good
:10:32. > :10:35.business practice. Unfortunately, some employers will get the message
:10:35. > :10:41.from this announcement that they are no longer applicable, and
:10:42. > :10:46.people will get hurt as a result. Of a business minister who I just
:10:46. > :10:53.mentioned is with me now. Let's just pick up on one of those points,
:10:53. > :10:56.the possible increase in accidents, and actually, he says, two major
:10:56. > :11:00.retail chains do not really want this kind of relaxation of
:11:00. > :11:05.regulation? We are not talking about relaxing regulation on any
:11:05. > :11:11.kind of high risk area. That means construction sites, chemical plants,
:11:11. > :11:14.care homes. This is about things like office premises. I visited an
:11:14. > :11:17.Internet entrepreneurial office today. These are not high risk
:11:17. > :11:24.environments, but they are still at the moment subject to health and
:11:24. > :11:28.safety checks, checks which really are not necessary. We think there
:11:28. > :11:30.is an awful lot that can be done indeed to help the health and
:11:30. > :11:36.safety people focus on the important areas which are indeed
:11:36. > :11:42.high risk. Talking about cutting 3,000 - have you got a list of all
:11:42. > :11:45.of these regulations? Yes, we have been on the case since the
:11:45. > :11:50.coalition government started. There are around 20,000 regulations
:11:50. > :11:52.altogether. Some of those are purely nominal. We consulted
:11:52. > :11:56.business and others, such as charities and voluntary
:11:56. > :12:01.organisations, to ask them to tell us which of these regulations
:12:01. > :12:05.really impact on them. There are around 6,500 which really have an
:12:05. > :12:09.impact. I want to see around 3,000 of those, nearly half of them,
:12:09. > :12:12.either scrapped or significantly overhauled, to minimise the cost to
:12:12. > :12:21.business. Call me a cynic, but every government has talk about
:12:21. > :12:26.this area, even since the days of Michael Heseltine - why do we have
:12:26. > :12:29.any faith that you will do any better than anybody else?
:12:29. > :12:34.Governments have pledged this before, I accept that. We are doing
:12:34. > :12:38.it again, but we have been on the case for two years. What does that
:12:38. > :12:41.mean? We have challenged business to tell us which of the regulations
:12:42. > :12:46.are getting in the wake, which challenged charities as well, who,
:12:46. > :12:50.for example, have to have criminal records checks every time somebody
:12:50. > :12:54.moves. That can be streamlined. Do you need paper driving licences any
:12:54. > :12:58.more? There is an awful lot of stuff which can be simplified.
:12:58. > :13:02.is this going to happen? It will happen from now on. It will go on
:13:02. > :13:12.until the end of next year. It is an extremely talented and timetable.
:13:12. > :13:16.regulations by the end of 2013? -- challenging.. How will you know?
:13:16. > :13:20.are going to report to Parliament. We may miss that target, but we
:13:20. > :13:24.will try. Not another failed target. We have never done this before,
:13:24. > :13:29.with a specific number. We have got to try, we have got to do
:13:29. > :13:34.everything possible, to help business create new jobs. You have
:13:34. > :13:38.got this target of 3,000 regulations by 2013, and you may
:13:38. > :13:41.not get all of them - how much money will it save the economy by
:13:41. > :13:48.then? We have already saved through the regulations we have already
:13:48. > :13:52.done, the red-tape cutting, some �850 million. Of these 3,000...
:13:52. > :13:56.do you measure that? You try to make an assessment of the actual
:13:56. > :14:02.cost of each individual regulation, if businesses did not have to do
:14:02. > :14:07.this. For small companies, they have not got time to do this, so
:14:07. > :14:12.they have to pay for a consultant to come in and do it. So, you can
:14:12. > :14:15.measure some of the costs. They do not all involve cost. For example,
:14:15. > :14:19.everybody has to have a no smoking sign on their premises, which has
:14:19. > :14:25.to be displayed in a particular way, with exactly the same wording -
:14:25. > :14:28.why? What is your response to this? Everybody wants to get rid of
:14:29. > :14:33.unnecessary regulation, but what about the point raised by the union,
:14:33. > :14:38.that actually, this will be disadvantageous? We all hate red
:14:38. > :14:41.tape and regulation, but we all think that employee protection is
:14:41. > :14:46.an important thing. This is a question of language. Looking at
:14:46. > :14:50.consumer issues, there are a number of ridiculous regulations. The one
:14:50. > :14:54.on money laundering requirements, for example, which says that if you
:14:54. > :15:00.want to open a bank account, you need paper statements, but then, we
:15:00. > :15:02.are encouraged to back online, so we do not have paper statements.
:15:02. > :15:09.you trust the Government to make sure they are picking the right
:15:10. > :15:14.ones? No, I slightly wary about the less a fair attitude. We have pay-
:15:14. > :15:17.day lenders, with pathetic, Tsar of regulation. We have claims
:15:17. > :15:26.companies bursting a pall over the place, which in many cases is not
:15:26. > :15:30.necessary. If these are totally unnecessary, I am sure we are all
:15:30. > :15:37.with you on things like the paper driving licence. We welcome back.
:15:37. > :15:47.On the other hand, please not too laissez faire.. Is it really going
:15:47. > :15:51.
:15:51. > :15:56.Small businesses create the next jobs. We have got to help them do
:15:56. > :16:03.it. This somebody sets up an enterprise, you cannot put pan
:16:03. > :16:06.signs on avoiding hassle when you are trying to focus on running and
:16:06. > :16:09.institution or a business. So that will be welcomed. One of the
:16:09. > :16:16.biggest obstacles may be your boss. The Vince Cable said very clearly
:16:17. > :16:21.it is nothing to do with site washers, it is a demand issue.
:16:21. > :16:26.went on to say that sensible deregulation is supported, it is
:16:26. > :16:29.sent the coalition agreement. Everybody supported. It is in the
:16:29. > :16:35.agreement that we are going to do it that is why we started the red
:16:35. > :16:39.tape challenge, and all Ministers are part of this agenda, as are all
:16:39. > :16:43.of the other departments. We have got other Ministers asking if they
:16:43. > :16:48.need that bit of red tape. How are you getting on with Vince Cable?
:16:48. > :16:53.Very well. Relations are fine. you text in like Ed Balls? We are
:16:53. > :16:56.talking. We are from different parties, we have different
:16:56. > :17:00.perspectives and occasionally different language, but all
:17:00. > :17:04.Ministers in the Department, five Conservative and two Lib Dem, are
:17:04. > :17:08.working together. I think we have just got time, because it is the
:17:08. > :17:11.TUC conference, we wanted to hear from Brendan Barber, because one of
:17:11. > :17:17.the boroughs will be any potential strike action. Let's hear what we
:17:17. > :17:20.had to say -- the worries. Congress, it is time for change. The
:17:20. > :17:24.Government's strategy is failing Britain, the economy is on its
:17:24. > :17:29.knees, services are being devastated and society is becoming
:17:29. > :17:34.more fractured, as benefits are cut for the poor, while taxes are
:17:34. > :17:39.slashed for the rich. Austerity isn't just some temporary sacrifice.
:17:39. > :17:45.It could be with us for the duration. A self- perpetuating
:17:45. > :17:50.economic nightmare. It is already beginning to happen. Beyond the
:17:50. > :17:54.boutiques of Notting Hill and the mansions of Kensington, there is
:17:54. > :18:00.another country, a Britain of boarded-up high streets,
:18:00. > :18:06.pawnbrokers, food banks, a Britain of stratospheric inequality, where
:18:06. > :18:11.the rich float free and the poor sink further into penury. A Britain
:18:12. > :18:15.of hopes denied for millions of our young people. Brendan Barber, the
:18:15. > :18:21.outgoing general secretary of the TUC. A divided Britain, failed
:18:21. > :18:25.economic policies. No, we have cut tax for everybody, not just for
:18:25. > :18:27.entrepreneurs, and we are reforming the benefit system, yes, but that
:18:27. > :18:31.is to help people who are working hard and are prepared to go for
:18:31. > :18:35.those jobs. But to squeeze on living standards. There has been a
:18:35. > :18:38.squeeze because of what has happened with energy prices, food
:18:38. > :18:42.prices and commodity prices. The Government to try to help by
:18:42. > :18:47.freezing council tax and by raising the personal allowance. Can they
:18:47. > :18:50.really do anything? We will be talking about this later on, a
:18:50. > :18:55.public sector pay freeze, food is on the rise, petrol is still high,
:18:55. > :18:57.it is tough. Certainly, it has been a very tough time and the problems
:18:57. > :19:01.in the eurozone and the world economy with rising food prices
:19:01. > :19:06.have gone on far longer than people predicted, but the Government has
:19:06. > :19:10.been tried to help and the economy is now revving up. With no growth?
:19:10. > :19:13.We don't know if there is no growth, there have been encouraging signs
:19:13. > :19:17.in the last few weeks that the economy may well be starting to
:19:17. > :19:20.grow again and we need to pick that point and get behind British
:19:20. > :19:24.business when it does. There is talk of co-ordinated strike action,
:19:24. > :19:27.what is the message? I would be very sad if that happened, that is
:19:27. > :19:31.not in the spirit of what we have seen of the Olympics and the
:19:31. > :19:34.Jubilee, when people have been getting behind the country. The
:19:34. > :19:38.public sector still has over all better wages than the private
:19:38. > :19:42.sector, it enjoys higher pensions, even though the contributions have
:19:42. > :19:46.been reformed and I think it would be a great shame that at the point
:19:46. > :19:50.at which we need the economy to start growing again, if we had a
:19:50. > :19:52.damaging strikes. A what is your view about the unions? Brendan
:19:53. > :19:58.Barber is leaving at this particular point, but there is the
:19:58. > :20:03.threat of court later strike action because he sees things extremely
:20:03. > :20:06.different theatre Michael Fallon -- of strike action for? I have no
:20:07. > :20:10.problem with strike actions as employee showing their displeasure,
:20:10. > :20:15.but when it becomes a political point and is done as a political
:20:15. > :20:19.action over the fact that the Government has been elected of the
:20:19. > :20:23.day is not doing what people want, I find that more difficult, because
:20:23. > :20:28.that is a democratic process. Labour did not get in, we have a
:20:28. > :20:31.liberal and Conservative pact and they are doing what the electoral -
:20:31. > :20:36.- Elektra to put them in full. Unpleasant as it is, so striking
:20:36. > :20:40.when things are manifestly wrong, I am completely in support. Trying to
:20:40. > :20:44.disrupt the economy for the elected political party, I find more of a
:20:44. > :20:48.wrench. A you will want to avoid strike action, so is there any
:20:48. > :20:51.chance at of reopening talks on pensions or the pay freeze? I think
:20:51. > :20:54.the trade unions though they still enjoy better pensions than the
:20:54. > :20:58.private sector, who in many cases don't have them, and they know that
:20:58. > :21:03.because people are living longer, contributions have to increase, but
:21:03. > :21:08.I do think they will think again -- I do hope they will think again,
:21:08. > :21:11.because they went BSP disruption to the economy, there will be
:21:11. > :21:15.disruptions to parents and everybody else, people trying to
:21:15. > :21:18.get to work -- they won't just be disruption. My call Fallon, good
:21:18. > :21:22.luck with your bonfire of the regulation -- Michael. We will have
:21:22. > :21:28.you back before the end of 2013 to see how many sheep have got rid of.
:21:28. > :21:35.As we have seen, the conference of the Trades Union is under way in
:21:35. > :21:37.Brighton, with delegates calling for radical changes to the
:21:37. > :21:40.Government policies, including the three-year pay freeze and
:21:40. > :21:43.industrial action. There is one motion that says consideration
:21:43. > :21:47.should be given to the practicalities of a general strike.
:21:47. > :21:51.The trade union brings together 54 units with 6.2 million members and
:21:51. > :21:55.they are not happy. General Secretary Brendan Barber says the
:21:55. > :21:58.governor's economic policies have failed. Last year saw the biggest
:21:58. > :22:01.buy-out -- day of industrial action for decades, hundreds of thousands,
:22:01. > :22:06.maybe millions, of public sector workers went on strike over changes
:22:06. > :22:10.to pensions. Now the TUC has organised another day of action on
:22:10. > :22:15.20th October. They wanted end to the three-year pay freeze and the
:22:15. > :22:18.public sector, the not below- inflation 1% pay rises that the
:22:18. > :22:22.Chancellor has demanded for the next two years. They also say that
:22:22. > :22:25.Government cuts will mean 700,000 public sector job losses and higher
:22:25. > :22:31.unemployment. Without a radical change of approach, the countries
:22:31. > :22:34.could be facing years of stagnation. Brendan Barber is in Brighton,
:22:34. > :22:37.welcome to the programme. Should the public be prepared for more
:22:37. > :22:45.strikes in the autumn as the unions try to make their point about the
:22:45. > :22:50.economy? We may see more disputes and some of my colleagues in major
:22:50. > :22:54.public service unions indicated that that is a possibility, but
:22:54. > :22:57.look, I hope that the Government will realise that the biggest
:22:57. > :23:02.argument of the lot here is about the failure of their policies to
:23:02. > :23:06.get any growth in a our economy. There has been no growth since the
:23:06. > :23:10.coalition came to office. We really need a change of course to give
:23:10. > :23:15.people some sense of hope and to begin to restore people's living
:23:15. > :23:21.standards. So you don't support the idea of Cordery to strike action,
:23:21. > :23:24.or even the idea being debated about a general strike -- co-
:23:24. > :23:29.ordinated strike action? That is not the way forward in your view?
:23:29. > :23:33.did not say that. Decisions on strike action are taken by members
:23:33. > :23:39.and by individual unions through their proper procedures and
:23:39. > :23:44.certainly from the TUC's position, we very much stand ready to support
:23:44. > :23:47.unions that make that decision and to co-ordinate unions, particularly
:23:47. > :23:52.Unions working together in the same sector, teachers' unions and local
:23:52. > :23:59.government unions, health unions. We very much work to provide that
:23:59. > :24:03.ordination. What is it going to achieve? Last year, we saw the
:24:03. > :24:06.biggest day of strikes for decades and it didn't achieve anything. The
:24:06. > :24:11.Government is not going to reopen talks on pensions, we had from the
:24:11. > :24:16.Business Minister, or reopen talks will change their policy on pay. --
:24:16. > :24:21.or change. I hope that they do reconsider some of their policies
:24:21. > :24:27.on key issues like pay, and certainly on the issue of pensions,
:24:27. > :24:32.I think the determination of Trade Unionists to support the action
:24:32. > :24:35.that took place, and it was unprecedented, 30 unions in
:24:35. > :24:41.November taking industrial action together, that was a major factor
:24:41. > :24:49.in persuading the Government to revise key proposals on pensions.
:24:49. > :24:53.But, look, I want to see some genuinely new thinking to get our
:24:53. > :24:57.economy moving again. We have got this huge squeeze on living
:24:57. > :25:00.standards that people have been facing, real-terms pay cuts for the
:25:00. > :25:05.last three or four years, stretching out now into the future.
:25:05. > :25:10.The Government are saying they are determined to impose a pay cap for
:25:10. > :25:14.the next two years of only 1%. How long is this misery going to go on?
:25:14. > :25:19.Particularly when it is not delivering what it is supposed to
:25:19. > :25:23.be delivering. Borrowing levels are going up. Do you not accept,
:25:23. > :25:27.Brendan Barber, that the economy needs to be rebalance? That there
:25:27. > :25:31.has to be a greater private sector creating wealth, creating jobs, and
:25:31. > :25:38.fewer people employed by the state, particularly in jobs that are not
:25:38. > :25:42.delivering anything? What we need, I don't think we need a rebalancing
:25:42. > :25:47.in that crude simplistic way, less public sector and more private
:25:47. > :25:50.sector, we need economic growth. And it is economic growth that will
:25:50. > :25:55.deliver higher living standards and also, incidentally, deliver better
:25:55. > :26:00.public services. We need a decent it funded, well resourced public
:26:00. > :26:04.services, but we are not getting that growth, unlike other major
:26:04. > :26:09.economies that have seen some recovery since the crisis hit by a
:26:09. > :26:12.whole world back in 2008. The United States, other major European
:26:12. > :26:18.economies, they have recovered the ground that was lost in the depths
:26:18. > :26:23.of the recession. Our economy is still over 4% smaller than before
:26:23. > :26:27.the crash. And government policies have got an awful lot of
:26:27. > :26:32.responsibility for that is more, dismal economic performance. The --
:26:32. > :26:35.dismal. You are suggesting more money should be spent by the
:26:35. > :26:38.Government, added to the current borrowing figures and that the
:26:38. > :26:43.public sector should stay the same size and that should be supported.
:26:43. > :26:51.What do you think that will do to the economy? It is not as simple as
:26:51. > :26:54.that. Look, we need a real national project for growth. That has got to
:26:54. > :27:00.involve real investment in infrastructure. How much money
:27:00. > :27:03.would you like to see? There have been huge cuts in public money. One
:27:03. > :27:08.of the first decisions the new Chancellor made after the election
:27:08. > :27:13.was to cut the school buildings for the future programme, �6 billion of
:27:13. > :27:17.construction spending that was keeping people in work, modernising
:27:17. > :27:22.the school system, and the axe was taken to that virtually within the
:27:22. > :27:27.first week. We need money putting back into that infrastructure. We
:27:27. > :27:31.need major reform of our banking system, so it is delivering
:27:31. > :27:35.investment that supports the real economy. We need active industrial
:27:35. > :27:39.policy, recognising the sectors that have real potential for growth
:27:39. > :27:44.and putting the levers of public policy and funding behind those
:27:44. > :27:48.sectors. There are lots of areas where government can act.
:27:48. > :27:54.support this motion that has just been passed which means the banks
:27:54. > :27:58.should be nationalised? Has it just been passed at the TUC? We had a
:27:58. > :28:05.debate on two things, a motion and a statement at the congress this
:28:05. > :28:09.morning. I said to the Congress the idea of just nationalising all of
:28:09. > :28:15.the banks, as if it was a panacea, I don't think makes sense. And of
:28:15. > :28:20.course, we are very much aware that there would be potentially huge
:28:20. > :28:25.costs in doing that. But we do need, that doesn't mean to say, we don't
:28:25. > :28:29.need rage a reform of the banking system. -- major reform. We need it
:28:29. > :28:33.in a number of areas in terms of regulation, new institutions to
:28:33. > :28:37.make sure investment is getting out to the wider economy, then it's to
:28:37. > :28:41.be very radical reform. Just briefly before you go, coming to
:28:41. > :28:48.the end of a ten-year stint, you have been along time, what is your
:28:48. > :28:54.greatest achievement? -- eight long time. I find it hard to think about
:28:54. > :28:57.one or single thing. Because you have done so many? The TUC and the
:28:57. > :29:02.trade union movement play a very important part in the life of this
:29:02. > :29:04.country, in terms of these great debate about public policy and day-
:29:04. > :29:10.in, day-out, thousands and thousands of workplaces, millions
:29:10. > :29:13.of people's lives are made better by the work of unions, so I am very
:29:13. > :29:18.optimistic we have got a very important job to do for a long time
:29:18. > :29:26.to come. Brendan Barber, thank you very much. Martin Ellis, listening
:29:26. > :29:29.unions -- Martyn Lewis? Or is he striking a chord with public
:29:29. > :29:33.sentiment? If you talk to public sector workers, they don't like
:29:33. > :29:37.what has happened to their pensions, so they represent a large number of
:29:37. > :29:41.people. I don't think they are that out of touch. Nationalising the
:29:41. > :29:45.banks is not going to happen, but I have some sympathy in that we are
:29:45. > :29:48.mandated to have a bank account, that has to be seen as a public
:29:48. > :29:53.service and one million people not having them in this country is a
:29:53. > :29:59.disgrace, so we have to tweak it towards tighter regulation in the
:29:59. > :30:02.way that banks regulator in that -- work in that core product. But I do
:30:02. > :30:07.think we perhaps have cut back too much on regulation and do need more
:30:07. > :30:10.investment for growth. It is that constant friction between deficit-
:30:10. > :30:15.cutting and the need for investment and I think infrastructure projects,
:30:15. > :30:19.and I suspect they will come back, I think... The Government says they
:30:19. > :30:23.are about to come back and are ready to go. He is not that out of
:30:23. > :30:33.sync with mainstream opinion. the public in general do hate
:30:33. > :30:33.
:30:33. > :30:36.strikes, because it is them who are If there is one thing many people
:30:37. > :30:40.like complaining about, apart from that, it is the cost of living. It
:30:40. > :30:44.is putting the squeeze on everyone's money. But can the
:30:44. > :30:54.Government do very much about rising prices? We sent David to
:30:54. > :31:01.
:31:01. > :31:04.find out. Politicians will always tell you they are on your side,
:31:04. > :31:08.they are listening, and they are fighting to keep the cost of living
:31:08. > :31:13.down. And we always believe them, don't we? Do you think the
:31:13. > :31:20.Government is doing enough to keep the cost of fooled -- the cost of
:31:20. > :31:24.fuel and food down? Definitely not. Absolutely not. There is a lot more
:31:24. > :31:28.could be done by the Government. think people just have to be more
:31:28. > :31:36.careful with how they spend their money, and not obviously spend lots
:31:36. > :31:40.on cake. But is it actually fair to blame politicians for things like
:31:40. > :31:45.the cost of food, petrol, or commuting into work? Politicians
:31:45. > :31:50.are pretty powerless, actually, when it comes to global prices and
:31:50. > :31:54.food inflation. The price of oil going up or down, for example. They
:31:54. > :31:59.will sometimes blame it on the sunshine and things like that, but
:31:59. > :32:04.I rarely feel sorry for politicians. On this occasion, however, when the
:32:04. > :32:08.economy here is influenced by things abroad or by supply and
:32:08. > :32:14.demand, there are limits to what they can do. So what have they
:32:14. > :32:18.done? Well, personal tax allowances have been increased. Fuel duty
:32:18. > :32:22.increases have been postponed, and the Office of Fair Trading is to
:32:22. > :32:25.probe into the price of petrol. Rail fares are set to rise by
:32:26. > :32:32.double the rate of inflation next year. But are things as bad as they
:32:32. > :32:36.feel? Food, fuel and rail prices continue to increase, but they are
:32:36. > :32:41.increasing at a lesser rate than they were about a year ago. But the
:32:41. > :32:44.public's perception of that may be quite different. In fact, they
:32:44. > :32:48.perceive far higher increases in inflation that is reflected by the
:32:48. > :32:52.numbers. Here's some radical food for thought. Ministers should
:32:52. > :32:57.forget about public opinion and actually do less, not more, about
:32:57. > :33:00.the cost of living. The trouble is, politicians are judged by us all on
:33:00. > :33:10.what they do, and they feel they have got to do something on of the
:33:10. > :33:10.
:33:10. > :33:14.time. Just make sure that you set broad parameters, and then let his
:33:14. > :33:18.knees get on with it. There are some examples of governments trying
:33:18. > :33:22.to mitigate the effects of the markets. In Asian economies, they
:33:22. > :33:26.have introduced subsidies for food and fuel at certain times. We find
:33:26. > :33:30.that very quickly, those public coffers are trained in the support
:33:30. > :33:34.of lower prices for consumers. Politicians like to believe that
:33:34. > :33:42.they have got on of the answers, but it seems the cost of living is
:33:42. > :33:45.largely outside of their control. We are joined now by the
:33:45. > :33:50.Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi. Can politicians actually do anything
:33:50. > :33:54.about the cost of living? Well, you can do some things. For example,
:33:54. > :33:58.make sure that the interest rate at which the government borrows it
:33:58. > :34:03.remains competitive. We have done that, for years, and food and fuel
:34:03. > :34:11.are still rising. I do not disagree. Commodity prices are going up. But
:34:11. > :34:15.on fuel, I think wrote is important that we continue to debate what the
:34:15. > :34:20.oil companies are doing, and we have had whistleblower as saying
:34:20. > :34:25.that this could be a price-fixing issue. Hold on. I always find this
:34:25. > :34:30.frustrating, when politicians talk about fuel, and talk about the oil
:34:30. > :34:33.companies. �1.40 per litre, the majority of that is tax. If you
:34:33. > :34:37.wanted to win a general election, one of the main things you would do,
:34:37. > :34:46.and I am not saying it is right to do this, would be to drop petrol
:34:46. > :34:50.prices down to �1. Ministers said to me recently, 200 of them, said
:34:50. > :34:58.to me, the first thing they would be doing would be to cut the price
:34:58. > :35:05.of petrol. Let me take you up on that. If we dropped it by 10p,
:35:05. > :35:10.which is dropping it quite significantly, and 1p lowered... I
:35:10. > :35:16.am not saying that his dramatic. We can do lots of stuff, we can start
:35:16. > :35:19.spending more now, Denmark has just done its, they have effectively
:35:19. > :35:24.done what Labour are calling for, borrowing more and spending more,
:35:24. > :35:28.but in the end, they are still in recession, the next generation has
:35:28. > :35:31.to pay the price for what we spend today. At the end of the day, you
:35:31. > :35:38.can do lots of popular things very quickly, to become more popular,
:35:38. > :35:42.but you will pay for them. That so much more honest answer. To say, we
:35:42. > :35:46.do have the ability to drop petrol down, but the best of the taxpayers
:35:47. > :35:50.would then have to subsidise the car driver. It is the fact, what
:35:51. > :35:55.annoys me, is that politicians do not use that type of language. We
:35:55. > :36:01.can cut gas and electricity prices, too. The question is, who will pay
:36:01. > :36:05.for it? The average energy price now is more than �1,300. The
:36:06. > :36:09.cheapest is �1,040. It is a charge for apathy. Those people who are
:36:10. > :36:16.financially illiterate pay more than serve the people, and wealthy
:36:16. > :36:22.people, like me, who know what we're doing. You cannot effect
:36:22. > :36:28.change on that -- you can change that by regulating the market more
:36:28. > :36:35.strongly, but you choose not to do that. The electorate needs honesty.
:36:35. > :36:40.Should politicians be more clear run these issues? You cannot get
:36:40. > :36:43.more honest than people saying, we have inherited a situation where
:36:44. > :36:49.there is no more money. Liam Byrne told us, good luck to you, there is
:36:49. > :36:54.no more money. You have got to balance the books somehow, when
:36:54. > :36:58.your borrowing �450 million per day. But when motorists said, �1.45 per
:36:58. > :37:03.litre is just too much, we have tried to do something about it, we
:37:03. > :37:08.have deferred some of the fuel duty rises. It is 10p less, not a huge
:37:08. > :37:14.amount of money, true. But my children, your children, our
:37:14. > :37:20.children, will have to pay, if we are irresponsible now. And it is
:37:20. > :37:24.the same with food prices as well, is it? There is no VAT on food, it
:37:24. > :37:30.is a very different case. Prices go up around the world, and you have
:37:30. > :37:35.got to try to do what you can. If interest rates go up by 1%, the
:37:35. > :37:40.money that we borrow, you will know better than anyone, what that would
:37:40. > :37:45.do to mortgage payments and all of the other payments. Yes, but we
:37:45. > :37:49.talk about quantitative easing, which is not really printing money,
:37:49. > :37:53.and if you look at PPI, it has put more money into the economy, done
:37:53. > :37:56.more for people with a lack of income, than quantitative easing.
:37:57. > :38:00.You could give people money. My biggest frustration, if I was
:38:00. > :38:04.sitting in your chair, the thing that would drive me up the wall, it
:38:04. > :38:07.is not going to be a quick fix, but the real thing we could do would be
:38:07. > :38:11.to have compulsory financial education in schools. If you did
:38:11. > :38:13.that then people would start to have an understanding of the
:38:13. > :38:18.differentials in gas and electricity. You would avoid a
:38:18. > :38:22.bloodbath which is coming when universal credit is introduced, and
:38:22. > :38:26.people who have been budgeting on a weekly basis, to doing so on a
:38:26. > :38:31.monthly basis, and I tell you, people are not financially literate
:38:31. > :38:34.enough to deal with that. Pensions as well. Why we do not have
:38:34. > :38:37.financial education in schools, you refuse to give people the tools to
:38:37. > :38:42.deal with these things. You cannot say people have to look after
:38:42. > :38:51.themselves, but not give them the tools. With huge respect to you, we
:38:51. > :38:56.are doing a lot on education. We are trying to make mathematics...
:38:56. > :39:01.Not on universal credit, when you move from weekly to monthly.
:39:01. > :39:04.that point was, what we are doing in schools. I have been campaigning
:39:04. > :39:10.on this for two years. It is all about having a deep understanding
:39:10. > :39:14.of maths before we move on from that. We need the basics right. We
:39:14. > :39:23.had 13 years when nothing happened. I have got to stop you both there.
:39:23. > :39:26.We will have to get you both on again. Now, after the excitement of
:39:26. > :39:29.last week's Cabinet reshuffle, become a what's in store for us
:39:29. > :39:33.this week. In a moment I will be speaking to a couple of political
:39:33. > :39:38.hacks who can give us the inside track. But first, a round-up. The
:39:38. > :39:44.TUC conference is taking place in Brighton. Brendan Barber's
:39:44. > :39:48.successor, the TUC's first female general secretary, speaks tomorrow.
:39:48. > :39:51.Plaid Cymru are also holding their conference this week in Brecon. The
:39:51. > :39:55.Hillsborough Independent Panel discloses its findings on Wednesday.
:39:55. > :40:00.The panel has analysed more than 400,000 pages of documents relating
:40:00. > :40:03.to the death of 96 Liverpool fans in 1989. Also on Wednesday, the
:40:03. > :40:06.latest unemployment figures are announced. The Government will be
:40:06. > :40:11.hoping for good news following positive unemployment figures in
:40:11. > :40:14.August. We can now go to college green, to speak to Sam Coates from
:40:14. > :40:18.the Times and Pippa Crerar, the City Hall editor of the Evening
:40:18. > :40:25.Standard. Starting with you, Pippa Crerar, on those unemployment
:40:25. > :40:28.figures, how much comfort can the Government take? I think it will be
:40:28. > :40:32.part of a bigger picture which is going on this week, which is that
:40:32. > :40:35.the Government is launching a new drive to boost growth. We have had
:40:35. > :40:38.announcements this morning about cutting red tape, and Vince Cable
:40:38. > :40:42.will be doing his industrial strategy later in the week. And
:40:42. > :40:45.then the unemployment figures are a third part of that. It is all part
:40:45. > :40:51.of the Government's drive to persuade us that they are back on
:40:51. > :40:55.track, that the memories of the botched Budget and a difficult
:40:55. > :40:59.summer are over, and that the economy is going to go places. We
:40:59. > :41:02.have had a reshuffle, we have got a focus on business policy this week,
:41:02. > :41:11.and they blew be trying to persuade people that the boom was over the
:41:11. > :41:14.weekend about plots and discontent with David Cameron are just that.
:41:14. > :41:18.Sam Coates, looking ahead to the growth figures, that's where
:41:18. > :41:19.everybody will be focusing their attention, because another
:41:20. > :41:24.contraction would be pretty devastating for the Government,
:41:24. > :41:28.wouldn't it? Absolutely. It is quite interesting. What we have
:41:28. > :41:32.seen over the weekend, Tory commentators close to George
:41:32. > :41:35.Osborne, and a handful of politicians, saying that all of a
:41:35. > :41:39.sudden, everything is on the up. Unemployment is going down, growth
:41:39. > :41:44.might have turned a corner, and that actually, after the Olympics,
:41:44. > :41:46.we should be optimistic about the economy. Experts, outside of the
:41:46. > :41:49.Westminster bubble will present a slightly different picture. They
:41:49. > :41:52.say we just do not know that the economy has turned a corner, we
:41:52. > :41:58.have absolutely no idea what is going to happen in the eurozone,
:41:58. > :42:02.either. It does not look like the banks have been successfully
:42:02. > :42:05.encouraged to lend, either. So, there is an attempt this week by
:42:05. > :42:09.Tory politicians to tell us that things are getting better, but I
:42:09. > :42:13.think viewers should be slightly cynical about that, it is no more
:42:13. > :42:18.than positioning before the party conferences. We have had the story
:42:18. > :42:23.about Colonel Bob Stewart, urged to stand as a stalking horse by two
:42:23. > :42:28.backbench colleagues - Sam Coates, what is the mood on the Tory
:42:28. > :42:33.backbenches? They were said to be pleased by the reshuffle, is that
:42:33. > :42:36.true? The stories about Bob Stewart a curious, I think they are several
:42:36. > :42:41.weeks old. But I think the discontent which has been generated,
:42:41. > :42:47.partly by the reshuffle, and partly by the ongoing malaise, is very,
:42:47. > :42:51.very real. I was picking it up, it was acute last week. I think there
:42:51. > :42:57.are people speaking about David Cameron's future. I'm not sure
:42:57. > :43:00.whether it will actually mean anything, but such is the depth of
:43:00. > :43:04.dislike and high feeling currently in the Tory party, I would not be
:43:04. > :43:07.terribly surprised if there were other people with half an eye on
:43:07. > :43:11.what might happen in the future. Last week was meant to see a
:43:11. > :43:15.reshuffle which would please the right, and indeed, David Cameron
:43:15. > :43:18.promoted people like Chris Grayling and Owen Paterson. But a hours
:43:18. > :43:22.before the reshuffle, I was speaking to one why his Cabinet
:43:22. > :43:26.minister who said, the problem with promoting the right is that the
:43:26. > :43:31.rest are left without jobs, and they will be just as upset as they
:43:31. > :43:36.always are. Pippa Crerar, speaking of relations between the back
:43:36. > :43:41.benches and the leadership, on the Labour side, we have just spoken to
:43:41. > :43:46.Brendan Barber, but this is a difficult moment for Labour as well,
:43:46. > :43:50.in terms of its relationship with the unions, isn't it? Very much so.
:43:50. > :43:55.Ed Miliband was speaking to union leaders this morning, but not
:43:55. > :44:01.appearing in front of the delegates. It is a tricky one, because Labour
:44:01. > :44:05.has decided not to oppose the pay freeze, the public sector pay
:44:05. > :44:09.freeze, and the unions are not happy about that. Also many on the
:44:10. > :44:12.left of the party, and on the backbenches, share that view. It
:44:12. > :44:20.will be to the good for Ed Miliband to balance the conflicting demands
:44:20. > :44:26.on him, as a pragmatic party leader, who wants to encourage mainstream
:44:26. > :44:31.opinion, to marry that with the views of his union paymasters, who
:44:31. > :44:39.provide about 80% of the party funding.
:44:39. > :44:49.We are joined now by our Monday MPs' panel. We are joined today by
:44:49. > :44:51.
:44:51. > :44:56.By think it is fairly important that we keep up a relationship with
:44:56. > :45:00.the unions, it is a historic one and we can be mutually supportive
:45:00. > :45:05.and in our aims, we think that the public sector can do a very good
:45:05. > :45:09.job and it is not all about privatising the sector's -- the
:45:09. > :45:13.private sector. One is Ed Miliband hiding away? I don't stay if he is
:45:13. > :45:16.hiding away or not but the relationship between the unions and
:45:16. > :45:21.Labour will continue and I think it should continue, it has been good
:45:21. > :45:24.for the country that we have that relationship. Important in terms of
:45:24. > :45:30.labour's policy and reaction to the public sector pay freeze, unions
:45:30. > :45:33.are very upset. Did Ed Miliband do the right thing? I think in the
:45:33. > :45:36.circumstances, he did, because we are dealing with the reality of now.
:45:36. > :45:41.Would we have dealt with it defending government, the answer
:45:42. > :45:44.might be different. -- in government. The Government has now
:45:44. > :45:48.had to increase its borrowing because it got its economic
:45:48. > :45:53.strategy wrong and therefore, there is nowhere for the Government to go,
:45:53. > :45:57.but that is the Government's making rather than anything positive the
:45:57. > :46:00.Labour Party have done. Do you welcome the overtures coming from
:46:00. > :46:05.Labour politicians like Ed Balls towards Vince Cable, trying to
:46:05. > :46:09.forge closer links between the Lib Dems and Labour? With all of these
:46:09. > :46:13.things, I think there is a fair amount has been going on. In is it
:46:13. > :46:17.a good thing? A I think any dialogue between any of the party's
:46:18. > :46:21.in Westminster is sensible when we have such an enormous economic
:46:21. > :46:26.crisis. I think the unions to have a problem, because Labour
:46:26. > :46:30.themselves, the Labour leader supports the Government pay freeze,
:46:30. > :46:33.and that is very difficult and if the unions do decide to hold a
:46:33. > :46:36.general strike, I think it is the wrong thing for the country and it
:46:36. > :46:41.will put Labour in a very difficult position. Meanwhile, the coalition
:46:41. > :46:45.is focusing on what counts, the economy. People feel their living
:46:45. > :46:51.standards are being squeezed, a pay freeze continues as food and fuel
:46:51. > :46:59.goes up, don't you have some sort of sympathy? A I have some enormous
:46:59. > :47:02.-- I have enormous sympathy. As my colleagues said on Saturday,
:47:02. > :47:06.another by constituents came to see me on Saturday and even those
:47:06. > :47:11.working and in good jobs, it is difficult. The public to appreciate
:47:11. > :47:14.the country is in a mess. Economic click it is typical. The ban after
:47:14. > :47:19.two years of a coalition government? They should even after.
:47:19. > :47:22.If you compare how we are doing in this country compared to others, it
:47:22. > :47:25.is difficult for people to understand. They certainly don't
:47:25. > :47:28.understand are the private sector and even in the public sector,
:47:28. > :47:33.where it is hard, people understand they have to keep gritting their
:47:33. > :47:39.teeth. You agree with Vince Cable that it is not to do with supply-
:47:39. > :47:43.side measures, it is to do with the man? I think it is everything. If
:47:43. > :47:47.everything was as black as white as everyone who might say, we would
:47:48. > :47:52.sort it ages ago. It is complicated. Is it as restless on the
:47:52. > :47:57.backbenches as we heard from Sam Coates? Tories are very
:47:57. > :48:01.dissatisfied after that reshuffle. A I don't think the Tory
:48:01. > :48:08.backbenchers I told to are not dissatisfied. He why you talking
:48:08. > :48:11.to? The 2010 intake. Have we were elected under a pack form put
:48:11. > :48:16.forward by David Cameron and he is doing a good job -- a platform.
:48:16. > :48:20.What is your response to these stories of stalking? Why are people
:48:20. > :48:23.publicly admitting that they were asked to stand against the David
:48:23. > :48:27.Cameron, or people overtly criticising him or telling him to
:48:27. > :48:33.get rid of his Chancellor before the reshuffle? What was Bob
:48:34. > :48:37.Stewart's response to the stalking? That it was silly. Two backbench
:48:37. > :48:42.MPs asked him to do it. But Parliamentary party, in every party,
:48:42. > :48:46.is an ambitious pace. People who don't get jobs will always be
:48:46. > :48:49.dissatisfied. The reality is that I, along with any of my colleagues,
:48:49. > :48:53.want to see the coalition government getting on with the job
:48:53. > :48:56.of sorting out the economy and this talk of stalking horses and
:48:56. > :49:01.leadership challenge as, at this point in the political cycle, is
:49:01. > :49:08.silly. It is Tory MPs who are talking about it, with all due
:49:08. > :49:12.respect. It isn't the common Terry at, they are reacting to what has
:49:12. > :49:17.come from MPs? Did the reshuffle do what it was supposed to do in
:49:17. > :49:20.quelling doubts among backbenchers? Without doubt, and Michael Fallon
:49:20. > :49:22.were saying exactly the right things about cutting regulation and
:49:23. > :49:26.getting the economy moving and creating jobs and that is what a
:49:26. > :49:30.lot of us want to hear and where the focus to be. I had been a
:49:30. > :49:34.Conservative for a long time. I looked through the 1990s and I
:49:34. > :49:39.remember exactly what happened when you had a party divided and could
:49:39. > :49:43.not work with itself. Have things changed? Boundary changes have gone
:49:43. > :49:47.down in flames thanks to the Liberal Democrats, a watershed
:49:47. > :49:52.moment for Conservative MPs, ill to make it harder to achieve that
:49:52. > :49:56.majority? I was perfectly candid about this because I was one of the
:49:56. > :49:59.MPs whose constituency was scheduled to disappear. Actually,
:49:59. > :50:03.boundary changes were the right thing for the Government to do. We
:50:03. > :50:07.stood on a manifesto that said we would reduce the number of MPs,
:50:07. > :50:16.make the numbers more equal, so I am very disappointed that the Lib
:50:16. > :50:20.Dems are not going to support it. There was a coalition agreement and
:50:20. > :50:25.if it was not met, so be it. Boundary changes are off the table.
:50:25. > :50:30.Of what you say? You must be delighted in the Labour Party?
:50:30. > :50:36.Probably, yes, because I think some of my patch -- backbenchers called
:50:36. > :50:39.it the gerrymandering Bill, that was the purpose behind it, rather
:50:39. > :50:45.than what the Government said about reducing the size of the electorate.
:50:45. > :50:48.I was expecting add extra 1,000 majority on boundary changes. And
:50:49. > :50:52.as politicians, we tend to look very much on our own perspective,
:50:52. > :50:56.but I think what the coalition will discover is that constitutional
:50:56. > :51:01.reform can be difficult. It is very easy shouting from the opposition
:51:01. > :51:04.asking why don't she reform the House of Lords, which the Labour
:51:04. > :51:10.government did in taking away most of the hereditary peers, but
:51:10. > :51:14.getting everybody to agree it must be reformed is easy, what is that
:51:14. > :51:19.the colt is what the reform should be. It's would have helped if
:51:19. > :51:24.Labour would have supported us -- it would have helped. It wouldn't
:51:24. > :51:27.have taken 100 years. I was there during all the constitutional
:51:27. > :51:30.debates during Scottish devolution and never did we have a programme
:51:30. > :51:35.motion, the kind of programme motion we have Beck, it did not
:51:35. > :51:40.exist. Nor did we have night sought guillotines, because it was
:51:40. > :51:43.constitutional and taken on the floor or the House -- of the House.
:51:43. > :51:48.There was an attempt to stifle debate around what for many people
:51:48. > :51:51.was a very emotional subject. have been constant negotiations for
:51:51. > :51:55.over a year between the different parties. My disappointment was with
:51:55. > :51:59.Labour more than the Conservatives, because I knew the Tory Right would
:52:00. > :52:02.try and stop it, but for Labour to try and pretend they were
:52:02. > :52:05.supporting it while people in the know know that they killed it stone
:52:05. > :52:09.dead was a real shame for progressive politics. We could have
:52:09. > :52:13.got rid of the House of Lords. Disappointment all round. Back to
:52:13. > :52:17.the subject we are so familiar with, the straining of sinews, the
:52:17. > :52:21.pushing of limits, the Blood sweat and tears and that is just working
:52:21. > :52:26.of course on the daily politics, and the Herculean efforts of our
:52:26. > :52:36.politicians to hop, skip and jump onto the Paralympic and Olympic
:52:36. > :52:51.
:52:51. > :52:55.bandwagons. Let's see them all in MUSIC: "Gold" by Spandau Ballet.
:52:55. > :53:05.I think it has lifted the whole country, it has brought people
:53:05. > :53:07.
:53:07. > :53:10.together and I am very proud of I want to join the Prime Minister
:53:10. > :53:16.in paying tribute to everyone involved in the Olympic and
:53:16. > :53:19.Paralympic Games. Our athletes, our fantastic volunteers and indeed the
:53:19. > :53:29.whole country that united in support of Team GB and came
:53:29. > :53:32.
:53:32. > :53:38.Every community in the country will be with the athletes every step of
:53:38. > :53:44.the way, each triumph, each setback, each joy, each sorrow, each victory
:53:44. > :53:47.and beach disappointment. I think it is really a great national event,
:53:47. > :53:57.a national coming together and it remains for me to say the very best
:53:57. > :54:06.
:54:06. > :54:10.We so often allowed ourselves to believe we are a nation of gracious
:54:10. > :54:13.losers. We are actually a nation that likes that winning feeling and
:54:13. > :54:23.we have Team GB to thank for that, they have inspired the whole
:54:23. > :54:27.
:54:27. > :54:33.I think the whole country look at what you did in all and
:54:33. > :54:37.stupefaction. The question is, how do we keep it going?
:54:37. > :54:42.Well, it has been a fabulous sum of sport and you can hardly blame the
:54:42. > :54:47.politicians for wanting to jump on that success bandwagon -- some of
:54:47. > :54:51.sport. Has any of the Stade has rubbed off for the Conservatives or
:54:51. > :54:54.the Liberal Democrats? -- Stardust? A I don't think it matters, what
:54:54. > :54:59.matters is we have a good legacy and those community grassroots
:54:59. > :55:02.sporting groups get out there and continue to attract the influx of
:55:03. > :55:07.people contacting them over the summer saying they wanted to try
:55:07. > :55:11.whatever sport, and we make sure that we have a good, healthy,
:55:11. > :55:16.active community taking part in lots of sport. There will be a
:55:16. > :55:19.spike, I am sure, in terms of participation, but everybody has
:55:19. > :55:23.and will talked about Legacy and we have heard politicians saying the
:55:23. > :55:27.confidence to deliver big things. What are these big things and what
:55:27. > :55:32.is being talked about? The biggest thing is to have a more active,
:55:32. > :55:35.healthier population. Not to do with the economy, then? The
:55:35. > :55:40.impression that you get from politicians there is they hope this
:55:40. > :55:44.will somehow inject some momentum into a fact-finding economy.
:55:44. > :55:49.think we showcased what is superb in Britain, delivering a fantastic
:55:49. > :55:54.event and of course she want there to be a put it in tourism, but I
:55:55. > :55:58.come from a background of local authority being a portfolio for
:55:58. > :56:02.leisure, and my big thing of the Olympics is I want to see people
:56:02. > :56:07.taking part out there. We can look at these pictures, thousands of
:56:07. > :56:10.people lining the streets of the parade and the support that has
:56:10. > :56:13.been seen all summer, particularly from volunteers... One of the
:56:13. > :56:16.things Vince Cable said is that business can learn from the
:56:17. > :56:21.Olympics and the Paralympics. What does he mean, Stephen Lloyd?
:56:21. > :56:26.Everyone should volunteer to help business grow? He hasn't phoned me
:56:26. > :56:33.to tell me what it means. The two different bits of Medicine that I
:56:33. > :56:37.think are incredibly significant -- Legacy, the legacy of volunteers,
:56:37. > :56:41.the 70,000 plus volunteers were just amazing. The lift they gave to
:56:41. > :56:47.the Games and the whole country was superb and the other thing, the
:56:47. > :56:50.legacy of perception. Disability is something I have been batting for
:56:50. > :56:54.for a long time and for the country and the nation as a whole to see
:56:54. > :56:59.the astonishing exploits of our Paralympian is, I think that all
:56:59. > :57:03.changed perception across the board about disability -- Paralympians.
:57:03. > :57:07.Everyone will agree on that but let's look at the specifics. All of
:57:07. > :57:10.those people have had a wonderful summer, people do feel good as a
:57:10. > :57:15.result of Team GB and the pulling together of the volunteers, as you
:57:15. > :57:18.say, but there have been reports in the paper that growing businesses
:57:18. > :57:23.will be surrounded by advisers in the same way that athletes are
:57:23. > :57:27.surrounded by their coaches. There is a sense that this -- this is
:57:27. > :57:30.rhetoric. What helped enormously for Team GB was money,
:57:30. > :57:35.straightforward investment of lottery cash, a lot of money went
:57:35. > :57:40.into sport and that is why we were successful. Is that is what -- is
:57:40. > :57:43.that what is needed? I agree there was money but also confidence. One
:57:43. > :57:46.thing Mike Politt will share with me on this, or prior to the
:57:46. > :57:49.Olympics the print media said it was going down the pan and the
:57:49. > :57:52.great British public decided they would love it and they proved to be
:57:52. > :57:57.right and I think confidence equally applies in business. What
:57:57. > :58:00.about the issue of money? absolutely needs money. The reason
:58:00. > :58:04.we have done so well as Team GB in Alan Pakes and Paralympics is
:58:04. > :58:09.because of the lottery money and that is the long and short of it --
:58:09. > :58:12.in the Olympics. The danger is that we will get a spike, we get on
:58:12. > :58:17.every year after Wimbledon, and that the enthusiasm will go on. I
:58:17. > :58:22.hope it does but I fear is that as we get further and further away as
:58:22. > :58:24.it gets more difficult, no more sporting events to engage in,
:58:24. > :58:28.hopefully the 2014 Commonwealth Games in Glasgow will get the same
:58:28. > :58:34.passion, but then once it is off the news, people forget about it
:58:34. > :58:39.and the money dried up. Caroline, your best moment? Undoubtedly
:58:39. > :58:45.Hannah Cockroft. A fantastic model for everybody, particularly women -
:58:45. > :58:49.- women in sport. If you go to the Paralympics? No, sadly, but I did
:58:49. > :58:51.go to Greenwich. Thank you to what you, enjoy the rest of this