:00:42. > :00:45.Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. Leaked letters from
:00:45. > :00:49.England's exam watchdog Ofqual show pressure was used to revise last
:00:49. > :00:52.summer's GCSE grades, but was the intervention justified? Shadow
:00:52. > :00:55.Chancellor Ed Balls has been heckled at the TUC Conference after
:00:55. > :01:02.he said a Labour Government would have to make difficult decisions on
:01:02. > :01:04.pay and pensions. We'll look at Labour's strained relationship with
:01:04. > :01:07.the unions. According to Boris Johnson the
:01:07. > :01:12.Olympics has brought home to this country that when we put our minds
:01:12. > :01:15.to it we can do anything. So can the Government learn any lessons?
:01:15. > :01:21.And conference season is upon us, but is there a point to them
:01:21. > :01:27.anymore? We'll find out about a radical new plan to drag the annual
:01:27. > :01:30.jollies kicking and screaming in to the 21st century.
:01:30. > :01:33.All that in the next hour. And with us for the whole programme today is
:01:33. > :01:36.the lawyer and academic Baroness Deech, who's held positions as wide
:01:36. > :01:38.ranging as Chairman of the UK Human Fertilisation and Embryology
:01:38. > :01:43.Authority and Pro Vice-Chancellor of the University of Oxford.
:01:43. > :01:46.Welcome to the programme. First, a Government-backed business
:01:46. > :01:51.bank, state intervention in industry and an end to the
:01:51. > :01:54.Government's laissez-faire industrial policy. I'm not talking
:01:54. > :02:01.about a new Labour policy, but new coalition plan to be announced
:02:01. > :02:03.shortly by the Business Secretary, Vince Cable. So is this a step in
:02:03. > :02:11.the right direction? Well, some Conservative backbenchers aren't so
:02:11. > :02:14.sure. Mr Peter Bone. I hate to say this to the Secretary for Business
:02:14. > :02:17.but there isn't cross-party support from this particular position. That
:02:17. > :02:22.sounded to me like a statement that any Labour Minister could have made
:02:22. > :02:27.in the previous administration. It talked about state intervention,
:02:27. > :02:32.and it said nothing about cutting red tape and regulation. That was a
:02:32. > :02:36.Labour statement, not a coalition statement. Well, the honourable
:02:36. > :02:44.member has his own distinctive and unique style which we all admire.
:02:44. > :02:47.Vince Cable said, without conviction! Joining me now is the
:02:47. > :02:50.Conservative MP Margot James who sits on the Business Select
:02:50. > :02:53.Committee. Do you agree with Peter Bone, if you are talking about
:02:53. > :02:57.state intervention, that does sound like something Labour and the TUC
:02:57. > :03:01.would welcome. I wouldn't use the term industrial intervention. What
:03:01. > :03:04.we are looking at is an industrial strategy to be executed in
:03:04. > :03:08.partnership with industry, rather than intervening into industry.
:03:08. > :03:12.There is a big difference between the sort of policies which you are
:03:12. > :03:16.alluding to from the 60s and 70s and what's being proposed now.
:03:16. > :03:20.What's the difference if you have got a state sponsored bank that is
:03:20. > :03:25.going to be lending directly to certain sectors that have been
:03:26. > :03:30.identified, you are talking about backing winners. We are talking
:03:30. > :03:35.about, I have spoken to Tory MPs who say yes, that's the policy
:03:35. > :03:38.being outlined, that's state intervention. We are talking about
:03:38. > :03:41.establishing a business investment bank but I am sure that bank will
:03:41. > :03:46.be independently run and I think that's important. But what is
:03:46. > :03:52.crucial is we get finance into small businesses in particular,
:03:52. > :03:56.monitor report out this week found that 30% of SME loan applications
:03:56. > :03:59.had been turned down. This is something I think that's been
:03:59. > :04:02.rumbling on for a couple of years. The difficulties of small
:04:03. > :04:08.businesses getting access to finance. It's crucial that the
:04:08. > :04:11.Government do step in and support moves to improve that. That in
:04:11. > :04:14.itself is the contradiction, isn't it? Without having a state
:04:15. > :04:19.sponsored bank it's clear Government hasn't been able to
:04:19. > :04:22.persuade those banks which we have a great deal of money in, they
:04:22. > :04:26.haven't been able to persuade them to lend to businesses. Lending to
:04:26. > :04:30.businesses is down on latest figures. Surely that's the point of
:04:30. > :04:33.having a state sponsored bank so you can tell it what to do?
:04:33. > :04:37.give terms of reference and its task, which is to increase lending
:04:37. > :04:41.to small businesses, that's its job. But in terms of picking the
:04:41. > :04:45.applications that are going to succeed, that is not Government's
:04:45. > :04:49.job. That will be done independently of Whitehall. How do
:04:49. > :04:53.you guarantee that money gets to businesses, because terms of
:04:53. > :04:57.reference were set for RBS and Lloyds and as we have seen, not
:04:57. > :04:59.enough money has gone to businesses? This bank will have one
:04:59. > :05:04.task, which is to lend to businesses. Obviously the banks you
:05:04. > :05:07.have mentioned have a much more diverse port portfolio of
:05:07. > :05:12.responsibilities. Do you know how much money the Government is going
:05:12. > :05:16.to put in or how much you would like to see being put in? I don't
:05:16. > :05:19.know yet. I don't think details have been announced. We have
:05:19. > :05:24.already invested �60 billion into the finance for lending scheme,
:05:24. > :05:29.which is ongoing and I think that will have an effect, too. Is it an
:05:29. > :05:32.admission that setting deficit reduction plans in the way the
:05:32. > :05:36.coalition did and outlining cuts to the public sector and then leaving
:05:36. > :05:40.the rest of the market, that was certainly the rhetoric, that that's
:05:40. > :05:43.failed? Not at all. Without deficit reduction we wouldn't be in a
:05:43. > :05:47.position to make these investments pause our interest rates would have
:05:47. > :05:53.shot up. The borrowing is going up. The interest rates have not gone up
:05:53. > :05:56.and they would have done had we put our foot off the peddle in terms of
:05:56. > :05:59.reducing the deficit. What's your response to the idea of more state
:05:59. > :06:03.involvement than the coalition has certainly said at the outset that
:06:03. > :06:06.actually certain industries like the car industry, which are doing
:06:06. > :06:11.well, need to be pushed further. It's a welcome direction. It's a
:06:11. > :06:15.good thing. It's ironic, though, that another bank has to be set up
:06:15. > :06:19.to patch up the failures of the kpeutsing ones. -- existing ones. I
:06:19. > :06:22.think it's a little bit blinkered also, I think the picture must be
:06:22. > :06:26.looked at more broadly. For example, the life sciences have been
:06:26. > :06:30.mentioned, that's a great British success story. But we need to help
:06:30. > :06:34.the brightest students who are doing engineering and biology and
:06:34. > :06:38.give help to those startup businesses. We need to reduce the
:06:38. > :06:42.other burdens on small businesses that they claim are holding them
:06:42. > :06:48.back. For example, the unfair dismissal law which is an unfair
:06:48. > :06:51.law, never mind unfair dismissal, raising the threshold on VAT,
:06:51. > :06:55.easing the business rate and so on. Businesses are finding that as fast
:06:55. > :06:59.as the money comes in, it's going straight back to the Government. A
:06:59. > :07:02.broader approach is needed. Which was outlined yesterday in terms of
:07:02. > :07:08.some of the attempts to burn out regulation which brings us on to
:07:08. > :07:12.the next point, why has only �60 million of the regional growth fund,
:07:12. > :07:16.�1.4 billion, actually reached the firms it was meant to? The Public
:07:16. > :07:21.Accounts Committee from which that data is taken reported today, but
:07:21. > :07:26.actually the hearings were finished in May. I gather that the situation
:07:26. > :07:30.has improved significantly since May. Two years after the coalition
:07:30. > :07:34.came in, you are setting up new measures and now we discover that
:07:34. > :07:37.money that's been allocated is not even reaching the target? That
:07:37. > :07:41.sounds like a long time but from inception, which was about two
:07:41. > :07:45.years ago that the regional growth fund was established, to actually
:07:45. > :07:48.getting the bids in, evaluating applications, doing the due
:07:48. > :07:52.diligence. We are talking about large amounts of taxpayers' money
:07:52. > :07:56.and I think the Government would be in for a lot of criticism if they
:07:56. > :07:59.backed too many high risk projects that turned out to fail. It's a
:07:59. > :08:04.balance. I agree with you that it looked as if little progress had
:08:04. > :08:07.been made at May. But I am assured that since May there's been
:08:07. > :08:13.considerably more progress made in getting that regional growth fund
:08:13. > :08:16.money into businesses. Thank you very much.
:08:16. > :08:19.A row over whether students who sat GCSEs this summer were unfairly
:08:19. > :08:22.marked down continues to rumble on. The exam regulator Ofqual says that
:08:22. > :08:25.the grades were correct, and that the normal procedures were followed.
:08:25. > :08:28.But letters leaked to the Times education supplement show that
:08:28. > :08:31.Ofqual wrote to one of the exam boards - who set and mark the GCSEs
:08:31. > :08:38.- to say that grade boundaries might have to be moved
:08:38. > :08:41.significantly to bring results in line with expectations. GCSE
:08:42. > :08:44.results were published on August 23rd. For the first time in their
:08:44. > :08:47.24-year history the proportion of entries achieving the top grades
:08:47. > :08:50.fell. Questions were raised about whether
:08:50. > :08:53.the exams had been unfairly marked, but an initial report by Ofqual
:08:53. > :09:00.found that the summer grade boundaries were properly set, and
:09:00. > :09:05.candidates' work properly graded. Although they said that the
:09:05. > :09:08.assessments marked in January were graded generously. However, it has
:09:08. > :09:11.now emerged that Ofqual wrote to the Edexcel exam board on 7th
:09:11. > :09:13.August to suggest that unexpectedly good results this summer could mean
:09:13. > :09:20.they had to move grade boundary marks further than might normally
:09:20. > :09:22.be required. The next day Edexcel replied,
:09:22. > :09:27.insisting that their proposed awards were fair and that they did
:09:27. > :09:30.not believe that a further revision of grades was justified. But Ofqual
:09:30. > :09:36.replied saying that Edexcel must act to make sure that their results
:09:36. > :09:38.were comparable with other exam boards.
:09:38. > :09:45.Speaking to the Education Select Commitee earlier the Chief
:09:45. > :09:49.Executive of Ofqual, Glenys Stacey, defended the regulator's actions.
:09:49. > :09:55.There would be six or 7% increase grade inflation that we did not
:09:55. > :09:59.think to be right or justifiable. We therefore wrote to Edexcel,
:09:59. > :10:02.pointing out that they needed to bring the qualification in
:10:02. > :10:07.appropriately. They reflected on that and it's quite right and
:10:07. > :10:11.proper that they should have done. The way the system is set up in the
:10:11. > :10:17.legislation we all operate to requires us to put that challenge
:10:17. > :10:24.back to them. It then requires them to look at whether they can justify
:10:24. > :10:26.their outcomes and that's what they did.
:10:26. > :10:29.Let's get more on this with the Conservative MP Graham Stuart,
:10:29. > :10:31.who's the Chairman of the Education Select Committee, and Brian
:10:31. > :10:34.Lightman, who represents headteachers as General Secretary
:10:34. > :10:37.of the Association of School and College Leaders. Welcome both of to
:10:37. > :10:41.you the programme. How do you expect potential GCSE students and
:10:41. > :10:46.their families to have any confidence in this system? Well,
:10:46. > :10:49.this kind of furore is bound to undermine people's confidence in
:10:49. > :10:52.the system. There are a series of complex elements that come together
:10:52. > :10:55.here which have no interest to the young people who have worked really
:10:56. > :11:00.hard, were led to expect that they would be able to get the grade to
:11:00. > :11:04.allow them to go on to other courses, enter apprenticeship, get
:11:04. > :11:08.an A grade to get to university, whatever it was, that's of little
:11:08. > :11:12.consolation to them. Our role on the committee is to delve into this,
:11:12. > :11:15.try to downstand the components that led to this sorry situation.
:11:15. > :11:23.What went wrong, what do you think? A combination of things. Three
:11:23. > :11:27.years ago the previous Government decided to bring in mod aou hrar
:11:27. > :11:30.construction. And graded as you go along. And 60% of the marks to be
:11:30. > :11:36.given out by teachers who themselves were teaching pupils.
:11:36. > :11:39.And change the entire syllabus of all three English subjects at the
:11:40. > :11:43.same time, they were asked, ministers were asked what is going
:11:43. > :11:47.to happen - isn't this going to lead to grade inflation? They said
:11:47. > :11:51.it will be up to Ofqual. Ofqual find themselves in an uncomfortable
:11:51. > :11:57.position of picking up the pieces. Are they picking up the pieces,
:11:57. > :12:01.though? Let's just sort of go back to how this thing unfolded. Ofqual
:12:01. > :12:05.said in a inquiry report that exam boards had set June's grade
:12:05. > :12:09.boundaries correctly, using their best professional judgment. Why is
:12:09. > :12:14.it that only a few months later they were writing to Edexcel, one
:12:14. > :12:18.of the boards, saying that actually they would have to mark more
:12:18. > :12:22.harshly than they had initially thought? Why did Ofqual change its
:12:22. > :12:26.mind? Edexcel is a relatively small player in the English market as it
:12:26. > :12:30.happens and it's what the regulators - it's what they do,
:12:30. > :12:34.they talk to, they make comparisons between data from different boards
:12:34. > :12:38.and and challenge them on it. In this case Edexcel accepted in the
:12:38. > :12:42.end that the boundary needed to be changed in order to ensure the
:12:42. > :12:46.comparability in standards over time which is now a requirement of
:12:46. > :12:51.law following the passing of the education Act 2011. Are you saying
:12:51. > :12:57.that those grades in January, do you accept they were marked too
:12:57. > :13:01.general lousely? -- generously? We do have unfairness in this year's
:13:01. > :13:06.results because those who banked their results in January, could get
:13:06. > :13:09.a C grade with lower marks than was required in June. That is a
:13:10. > :13:14.fundamental unfairness. The challenge is to understand how we
:13:14. > :13:17.got here and what do we do about it. Ofqual said they looked, the right
:13:17. > :13:21.thing to do, while ensuring comparability, would be to remark
:13:21. > :13:26.January, to tell people who had already been issued with a
:13:26. > :13:30.certificate their grade was to be downgraded. They made a decision to
:13:30. > :13:33.leave January results alone. And be unfair on students who took the
:13:33. > :13:36.exam in June? Brian will doubtless be able to speak about why he
:13:36. > :13:41.thinks that's unfair. Ofqual insist that the June results were fair.
:13:41. > :13:46.It's just that the January ruplts were actually -- results were
:13:46. > :13:50.overly generous. Surely Ofqual has fulfilled what it was set up to do.
:13:50. > :13:54.We have made it clear that where exam boards proposed results that
:13:54. > :13:58.differ significantly from expectations because results are
:13:58. > :14:03.based on predictions made, then their job is to intervene. What's
:14:03. > :14:07.Ofqual done wrong? Well, I think that the implementation of this
:14:07. > :14:10.examination has been fundamentally flawed. I understand all of the
:14:10. > :14:13.points Graham has made about the nature of that examination and
:14:13. > :14:17.amount of controlled assessment and structure of the examination, but
:14:17. > :14:21.the issue is that when you make a new examination, when you create a
:14:21. > :14:25.new examination as regulator and as awarding bodies it's their job to
:14:25. > :14:29.make sure that the assessment systems are fit for purpose. Now
:14:29. > :14:33.they clearly weren't fit for purpose. Conkwepbtly, when --
:14:34. > :14:37.consequently, when the controlled assessments took place earlier in
:14:37. > :14:40.the academic year, and were found to be generous, they were found to
:14:40. > :14:44.be generous too late. Nothing was done about it. Right, but what
:14:44. > :14:48.would you suggest that they did having then discovered it. They
:14:48. > :14:52.should have moderated that marking at the time. They should have had
:14:52. > :14:56.proare -- proper systems in place to make sure that marking was
:14:56. > :14:59.robust. That's the job of an awarding body and regulator. If
:14:59. > :15:03.they had moderated that at the time they could have said to schools you
:15:03. > :15:06.are being too generous, this isn't a C, it's a D or whatever, and the
:15:06. > :15:11.schools would have known that they would have needed to do something
:15:11. > :15:16.then. We questioned Ofqual extensively. They insist, because I
:15:16. > :15:20.asked them were there any techniques, any resources, that cow
:15:20. > :15:24.have used that would have given us that insight earlier so we didn't
:15:24. > :15:28.get in this position and the chief regulator insisted there weren't.
:15:28. > :15:37.So that's going to be - as this story goes on and there's a lot of
:15:37. > :15:41.questions to answer, that's one of There is a major set of questions
:15:41. > :15:45.to be asked there about - many of the things I heard the chief
:15:45. > :15:49.regulator saying this morning whereabout engshrish a difficult
:15:49. > :15:53.examination to assess. These are excuses which are not acceptable. -
:15:53. > :15:59.- English is a difficult examination. He let's go to Leeds
:15:59. > :16:03.and talk to John Townsley the executive principal of academies,
:16:03. > :16:07.he was an Ofqual board member until March. Welcome to the programme.
:16:08. > :16:11.What do you think went wrong? Is it Ofqual's fault? I believe it is
:16:11. > :16:15.fundamentally Ofqual's fault. I believe what has taken place is
:16:15. > :16:21.that Ofqual has failed to regulate in the early part of this GCSE
:16:21. > :16:25.process, so in particular June 2011 and in January 2012, which is
:16:25. > :16:31.interesting that June 2011 is barely mentioned but in fact we
:16:31. > :16:34.know that for foundation tire AQA alone, that's 85,000 students.
:16:34. > :16:39.Ofqual failed to regulate what was taking place at that time. This
:16:39. > :16:43.isn't just billion coming in at the end of a process, it is working in
:16:43. > :16:48.partnership as an effective regulator during that process. But
:16:48. > :16:52.as a consequence of that the grades awarded at those points appear to
:16:52. > :16:55.be inconsistent, varied and a significant number of C grades
:16:55. > :16:59.awarded, well beyond what would be expected. Quite simply what then
:16:59. > :17:03.has taken place is Ofqual have moved in at the end of the process,
:17:03. > :17:07.at the end of a two-year process and demanded that the forecasted
:17:07. > :17:11.percentage, that must be met at the end of that two years is met.
:17:11. > :17:15.That's resulted in young people citying the exam at the end of the
:17:15. > :17:19.two years being compromised in terms of their equality of
:17:19. > :17:24.opportunity. Right and what do you think should happen now? I believe
:17:24. > :17:27.Ofqual and the chief regulator are not fit to conduct any further part
:17:27. > :17:31.in this process. They have compromised their position by their
:17:32. > :17:35.failure to do two things, someone to regulate, their key
:17:35. > :17:40.responsibility. The second thing is to ensure fairness for candidates,
:17:40. > :17:43.which they have failed to do. I believe they need to be brushed to
:17:43. > :17:47.one side, we need an independent inquiry and we need to put the
:17:47. > :17:53.results right immediately and in the medium-term we need to look at
:17:53. > :17:58.the way in which the awarding body works. You are calling for
:17:58. > :18:02.regrading. You think these students in June should have their GCSE
:18:02. > :18:06.regraded from D to C? There needs to be a raped process to put that
:18:06. > :18:12.right quickly. If I can give you an example. The C rates on the
:18:12. > :18:16.foundation papers were with AQ A on the foundation stage... Hang on a
:18:16. > :18:21.serbgsd the foundation papers is the ones taken in - hang on a
:18:21. > :18:25.second Two two tires, the foundation paper and foundation.
:18:25. > :18:30.The foundation has a maximum grade of a C. That's the paper which in
:18:30. > :18:36.our view has been targeted by Ofqual to reduce the number of Cs
:18:36. > :18:40.overall to be allocated. My issue is if there has been generosity
:18:40. > :18:44.with 85,000 students with June 11 and January 12 was it a coincidence
:18:44. > :18:48.that we ended up with the right overall percentage at the end of
:18:48. > :18:52.the overall two-year course it. Wasn't, it was manipulated. You say
:18:52. > :18:57.it is manipulated. In the end, what is most important, is it not that
:18:57. > :19:01.the students get the grades they deserve on a consistently-marked
:19:01. > :19:05.basis Well, that's right. But the discussion is all a bit artificial.
:19:05. > :19:08.I mean very briefly the background is many employers and universities
:19:08. > :19:12.don't find students to be of the quality, or as well-prepared as
:19:12. > :19:18.they were many years ago. And over 25 years, the number of A grades
:19:18. > :19:22.has tripled and the number of fails has gone from 10% to about 3% but I
:19:22. > :19:25.have three remedies for this particular situation. One is that
:19:25. > :19:30.the discussion is rather artificial because we are talking about who
:19:30. > :19:34.should get a C. If we had the raw marks, the actual percentage, 58,
:19:34. > :19:39.60, 62, then you could decide, you shouldn't have to decide whether it
:19:39. > :19:46.is a C or D. Let's have the actual marks and then sixth forms and
:19:46. > :19:49.others can decide where the cut-off point is. Secondly, what is
:19:49. > :19:53.completelyeds un-- completely unjustifiable is to have five
:19:53. > :19:56.different examination boards with a race to the bottom. There really
:19:56. > :20:01.has to be one examination board for one subject. And bring on the time
:20:01. > :20:07.when, as Michael gef has said, let there be O'level and get rid of
:20:07. > :20:12.this GCSE, which has fallen into disrepute. -- Michael Gove.
:20:12. > :20:15.Let's see what you think. Do you agree let's see that the standard
:20:16. > :20:19.needs to be higher With all due respect. It is an irrelevant
:20:19. > :20:23.discussion in relation to this particular issue, which is about
:20:23. > :20:26.the administration of one particular exam. I do agree that we
:20:26. > :20:30.need to look at the examination system and we need to have a proper
:20:30. > :20:32.discussion about what would be a fit-for-purpose system for the
:20:32. > :20:35.future but this is not the conversation we are having at the
:20:35. > :20:40.moment. At the moment we are talking about many thousands of
:20:40. > :20:44.young people who have simply been done an injustice by the way this
:20:44. > :20:48.particular examination has been administered this year. What do you
:20:48. > :20:53.think should happen? What about calls for this independent inquiry?
:20:53. > :21:00.Surely that has to ha. We know now the Welsh Education Minister has
:21:00. > :21:04.call for that. -- surely that has to happen. Ofqual, has said in
:21:04. > :21:08.Wales, because standards are not improving, they seem to be keen on
:21:08. > :21:11.raising the standards. What should happen here and what should happen?
:21:11. > :21:15.You can't regraifpltd it is not possible. You can't engineer it.
:21:15. > :21:18.The teachers will have to give the children the right reference to
:21:18. > :21:23.enable them to go forward saying... We need answers to the questions.
:21:23. > :21:25.The Select Committee is there for that. Whether the Select Committee
:21:25. > :21:29.will interview the Secretary of State tomorrow morning and we'll
:21:29. > :21:33.then decide on a recommendation, either an inquiry to be conducted
:21:33. > :21:36.by the Select Committee or recommendations on whether we think
:21:36. > :21:41.a separate inquiry should be undertaken and undertaken quickly
:21:41. > :21:44.for exactly those reasons. Every day at the moment, if a change is
:21:44. > :21:47.required, as what happened in 2002 when a Secretary of State lost her
:21:47. > :21:52.job at the end of the process, a very similar situation, we do need
:21:52. > :21:58.answers, we need them quickly because every day has an impact on
:21:58. > :22:03.the life chances of the children concerned. Are you backing an
:22:03. > :22:07.inquiry and having a regrading chair a cross-party committee who's
:22:07. > :22:10.job it is to do that. I have said let's hold the line and we'll
:22:10. > :22:13.decide together, and that's what we will aim to do tomorrow. Your
:22:14. > :22:16.response to what Graham Stuart has said? I'm confident that Graham
:22:16. > :22:20.Stuart and his committee will recognise, because of their track
:22:20. > :22:22.record, just how appalling this situation is, and that time is not
:22:23. > :22:27.on our side for thousands of students who have been robbed of
:22:27. > :22:31.their rightful grade. This is an isolated, small area that needs to
:22:31. > :22:36.be put right now. The bigger picture about the awards market and
:22:36. > :22:38.how it works in the future, is a few fewer debate. Thank you all
:22:38. > :22:42.very much. The row over universial credits
:22:42. > :22:45.continues, with Labour holding an Opposition Day debate on the scheme
:22:45. > :22:48.this afternoon. Under the Government's plans the benefits
:22:49. > :22:51.system will be simplified and ministers hope this will lead to
:22:51. > :22:55.work becoming a more attractive option for claimants. It's been
:22:55. > :22:59.described by ministers as the most radical redesign of the system in
:22:59. > :23:04.the history of the welfare state but there are fear abouts how the
:23:04. > :23:11.scheme could work and whether it could harm the most vulnerable.
:23:11. > :23:15.Yesterday Iain Duncan Smith faced questions from MPs on his plans.
:23:15. > :23:19.meet regularly with a local single mother's support group and some of
:23:19. > :23:23.the mums there have expressed concern about monthly budgeting and
:23:23. > :23:25.are worried it'll be assumed they can manage. Can my right honourable
:23:25. > :23:29.friend will confirm under universial credit my constituents
:23:29. > :23:32.can be reassured that that support is in place. Of course people will
:23:32. > :23:36.be concerned about it. But there are positives to take from this.
:23:36. > :23:39.The most important thing is by trying to move people on to a
:23:39. > :23:42.monthly payment that brings them much more into line with the world
:23:42. > :23:45.of work. One of the problems we have had is when people going to
:23:45. > :23:51.work, we have been unemployed, they find it difficult to cope with
:23:51. > :23:57.having it take on and manage their arrangements.
:23:57. > :24:02.One of the parts of this strategy is the expansion of food banks,
:24:02. > :24:04.would you condemn that? The reality is when we came into office I was
:24:04. > :24:09.told by the department that the last Government, despite the
:24:09. > :24:12.constant requests from a variety of people who provide food banks, they
:24:12. > :24:16.asked if they could put their leaflets and advertise what they
:24:16. > :24:19.were doing in the job centres, they were told no, by the last
:24:19. > :24:22.Government who didn't want the embarrassment of them being
:24:22. > :24:26.involved in it. We immediately allowed them to do that, which is
:24:26. > :24:29.in part one of the reasons why there has been an increase in the
:24:29. > :24:35.numbers seeking food banks. When universial credit is fully rolled
:24:35. > :24:40.out in 2017, the OBR says the extra costs will be �3.1 bill yob. The
:24:40. > :24:44.Treasury, in its Budget, says the price must be no more than 2.5
:24:44. > :24:49.billion. -- 3.1 billion. Who's estimate does
:24:49. > :24:53.the Secretary of State agree with? Well the OBR agrees with me, which
:24:53. > :24:59.strangely enough agrees with the Treasury which is our view that we
:24:59. > :25:02.will roll this out at �2.5 billion per yeefrplt It is clear the
:25:02. > :25:06.Treasury thinks there is a state of Kay othe Cabinet Office thinks
:25:06. > :25:12.there is Kay oNumber Ten thinks there is chaos, surely it is time
:25:12. > :25:17.he told the House what exactly is going on? We are committed to the
:25:17. > :25:21.�2.5 we will deliver it on time and on budget We were told that
:25:21. > :25:24.universial credit will mean every additional hour people works pays.
:25:24. > :25:29.Is the Secretary of State concerned that many thousands of families
:25:29. > :25:33.face a cliff edge at the point of which el be giblt for free school
:25:33. > :25:37.meals kicks in. -- eligibility. are looking at the best way to
:25:37. > :25:41.bring this in so we rerad Kate those problems so it is a seamless
:25:41. > :25:44.process which allows people to engage their lives and improves the
:25:44. > :25:50.quality of lives, rather than negotiating around the edges of
:25:50. > :25:54.those difficulties. The Work and Pensions Secretary,
:25:54. > :26:00.Iain Duncan Smith, defending his universial credit. Adam south on
:26:00. > :26:05.the green with more. Afternoon with a windy College Green. This is the
:26:05. > :26:10.Government's big idea, a capital B And I when it comes to welfare but
:26:10. > :26:14.is the universial credit heading for big trouble? Well we have two
:26:14. > :26:20.MPs on the committee that scrutinised the original
:26:20. > :26:23.legislation. Kate Green and Charlie. Making work pay, two good thing,
:26:23. > :26:27.aren't they stpoo They would be good things if it was going to do
:26:27. > :26:30.that, but first of all this isn't a simple benefit. If your
:26:30. > :26:34.circumstances start it change within the month, some of your
:26:34. > :26:36.benefit will be recalculated, some won't. If you reach a certain
:26:36. > :26:39.cliff-edge you will still see things like school meals being lost.
:26:39. > :26:43.If you are self-employed, it'll assume a certain income, whether
:26:43. > :26:46.you get it or not. It is going to be very bad for people who might
:26:46. > :26:49.gain something from the Government's raising of the tax
:26:49. > :26:52.threshold but who will lose universial credit as a result and
:26:52. > :26:56.it'll not invent size work for certain people. For example, there
:26:56. > :27:01.will be some people who would be better reducing their hours or
:27:01. > :27:04.stopping work, which can't be what the Government wants. Kate sounds
:27:04. > :27:07.concern, do you share those concerns? We think it is about
:27:07. > :27:12.making work way, enurging cans people back into the workforce,
:27:12. > :27:18.saying you are needed, you have a role to plai, don't sit on benefits,
:27:18. > :27:21.join the workforce and help get Britain growing: the way it is
:27:21. > :27:27.structureside to incentivise making work a good thing and encourage
:27:27. > :27:31.people to be better off in work B2.5 family families will benefit.
:27:31. > :27:34.The fact is it sounds like Number Ten and the Treasury were concerned
:27:34. > :27:37.about it. So much so that they wanted to move Iain Duncan Smith.
:27:37. > :27:41.What is that about? I think Government is committed to
:27:41. > :27:46.universial credit. Rightly so. There are some concerns, I have
:27:46. > :27:49.read about, will the computer stems work, considering Government and
:27:49. > :27:53.computer systems don't go together too well but with the way they are
:27:53. > :27:59.doing it with a phased introduction to iron out teething problems and
:27:59. > :28:02.get it work wling when it is fully implemented. You mentioned IT. What
:28:02. > :28:06.are your corners when it comes to your constituents accessing this
:28:06. > :28:10.benefit. They will have to log on to manage it. The Government has an
:28:10. > :28:13.ambitious target to get people to apply online. We know a high
:28:13. > :28:17.percentage of benefits claimants don't alie online and would
:28:17. > :28:22.struggle to put together all the information online to put nan
:28:22. > :28:29.accurate claifrpblgts the Government say 78% of benefit
:28:29. > :28:32.claimants are on the internet. Yes but nothing like that amount are
:28:33. > :28:37.using it for benefits claims. We have to realise there is complex
:28:37. > :28:41.information and no advice to help them because of the cuts to funding
:28:41. > :28:46.for Citizens Advice buersyos and advice agencies they'll struggle to
:28:46. > :28:50.get the help. -- Citizens Advice Bureaus. Are benefits claimants in
:28:50. > :28:53.Dover aware that this is happening from next year and are you aware of
:28:53. > :28:58.them getting help to imagine the transition. This idea that people
:28:58. > :29:01.can't use the internet or budget on a monthly basis is stupid and
:29:02. > :29:05.patronising. The message that the Labour Party is sending to these
:29:05. > :29:12.people is you are really thick. I don't agree. I think people are
:29:12. > :29:15.able to tkhees things and we should be optimistic. -- able to do these
:29:15. > :29:20.things Do them if you don't have enough money. People are concerned
:29:20. > :29:23.when all the money is in one big pot and pressure boils up and there
:29:23. > :29:28.will not be enough money to make the commitments, particularly when
:29:28. > :29:31.the payments that are intended for children or childcare and the
:29:31. > :29:35.payments intended for your rent are all going to one person, who may
:29:35. > :29:39.not be the person responsible for those bills. Iain Duncan Smith
:29:39. > :29:42.yesterday addressed a lot of those points bfortnightly payments rather
:29:42. > :29:45.than monthly. He did very much so. The Labour Party want to spend
:29:45. > :29:50.money on giving people advice. I want to spend money on making work
:29:50. > :29:54.way and helping people who have more money in their pocket to
:29:54. > :29:59.incentivise them and to work harder How about paying for this system.
:29:59. > :30:02.There are suggestions from the OBR it'll cost �600 million a year more
:30:02. > :30:07.than was planned. We had that discussion in work and pensions
:30:07. > :30:11.questions yefpltd I don't think an awful yesterday. I don't think an
:30:11. > :30:15.awful lot turns on that. I think we need to get this system in place,
:30:15. > :30:19.get it working and encourage more people into the work place and
:30:19. > :30:22.driving the economy for growth for the long term. Thank you very much.
:30:22. > :30:26.I'm sure we'll hear many more of these discussions this afternoon.
:30:26. > :30:29.As we heard the first pilots are going to be in Manchester of the
:30:29. > :30:33.universial credit in April 2013 then next year people will
:30:33. > :30:36.gradually be moved on to it. It hasn't happening overnight. All
:30:36. > :30:43.benefits claimants won't be on universial credit until 2017. A
:30:43. > :30:46.It's an interesting and important subject because it's a radical
:30:46. > :30:51.reform, isn't it, having a universal credit? If it sounds good
:30:51. > :30:55.in theory, do you think it will work in practice? It's a good idea
:30:55. > :31:00.in theory. I greatly admire Iain Duncan Smith and for many reasons I
:31:00. > :31:04.wish he had moved to the Ministry of Justice, but anyway that didn't
:31:04. > :31:10.happen. He didn't want to go! bothers me is the assumption that's
:31:10. > :31:15.made that people can handle things online. 8% - no, eight million of
:31:15. > :31:20.the population have never approached a computer. Apparently,
:31:20. > :31:23.another 20 million or so really don't have the necessary skills.
:31:23. > :31:29.That's unrealistic. I am worried there will be a sort of meltdown
:31:29. > :31:35.with people unable to use it or computers crashing as happened with
:31:35. > :31:39.the income tax and has happened with NHS data. That's a problem. To
:31:39. > :31:43.access broadband apparently is something like �30 a month which is
:31:43. > :31:47.an additional expense. This issue is tied up with the Government's
:31:47. > :31:51.approach to broadband. I happen to sit on the House of Lords select
:31:51. > :31:54.committee on communications and we have pointed out that with
:31:54. > :31:59.broadband it really ought not to be our priority to get it faster,
:31:59. > :32:02.tpwou make sure that everybody in the country can use it. So you have
:32:02. > :32:06.an underlining problem with using the internet. The other one is I
:32:06. > :32:11.would be very worried if the universal credit went to the men in
:32:11. > :32:15.the household, because it's the women who will be spending it on -
:32:15. > :32:18.I would be worried - it's very sexist this, might spend it on
:32:18. > :32:24.something else. An interesting point.
:32:24. > :32:27.Now it's the the Budget that just won't go away. Nearly half a year
:32:27. > :32:32.since the Chancellor read out his statement the controversies are
:32:32. > :32:35.still rumbling on. We have had rows over pasties, caravans and Church
:32:35. > :32:39.improvements. One issue they're holding firm on is forcing
:32:39. > :32:44.universities to pay VAT on any alterations to their listed
:32:44. > :32:48.buildings. Here is Giles Dilnot with more. Under the dreaming
:32:48. > :32:53.spires of academia whilst Professors profess, building
:32:53. > :32:58.managers and pursers are having a financial financial headache. It's
:32:58. > :33:03.after the Treasury stuck an oar in after the Budget. You see, up until
:33:03. > :33:10.now if you repair a listed building, well that's the full fat 20% VAT.
:33:10. > :33:15.But if you want to alter it in a major way, well VAT was at 0%. The
:33:15. > :33:20.Treasury tell me this is a confusion that cost man hours and
:33:20. > :33:23.queries over what is altering and so it's been simplified. Now
:33:23. > :33:26.everything is 20%. Some universities suspect this was
:33:27. > :33:31.thought acceptable because the kind of people in institutions affected
:33:31. > :33:35.could frankly easily afford it. a country we have to find money
:33:35. > :33:40.from somewhere. There's no money, good luck to you, as Liam Burn said.
:33:40. > :33:45.We are borrowing �4 million plus a day. This change over this this
:33:45. > :33:48.lifetime of this parliament will bring in about �300 million to the
:33:49. > :33:53.Treasury. We have to effectively try and make sure that all these
:33:53. > :33:56.small changes take out anomalies but raise money so we can deal with
:33:56. > :34:00.the deficit. Here in Reading we are not necessarily talking about
:34:00. > :34:06.dreaming spires, chocolate box iconic listed buildings. These two
:34:06. > :34:08.gate houses are listed, from the Victorian estate upon which the
:34:08. > :34:13.university stands and before, if the university wanted to alter them,
:34:13. > :34:18.well, that was 0% VAT. Now, from the 1st October it will be 20%,
:34:18. > :34:21.just like everybody else. That's a financial constraint the university
:34:21. > :34:26.doesn't really want. The question now is how often do people want to
:34:26. > :34:30.change these buildings? Cutting out research and teaching requires fit
:34:31. > :34:34.for purpose building. When a proportion of your estate is in
:34:34. > :34:41.listed buildings, you are always going to be making those
:34:41. > :34:48.alterations. We are altering here all the time. The Treasury insist
:34:48. > :34:53.this sim play play -- simplification is overdue. But if
:34:53. > :34:57.politicians want to visit academic institutions again and get a hearty
:34:57. > :35:03.welcome, they may have to answer one countercharge. I am sure that
:35:03. > :35:08.it's been underestimated how many people this hits. I think as a
:35:08. > :35:12.whole many institutions, it will be just one small added burden on top
:35:12. > :35:16.of the other. But if you look at the institutions who have got
:35:16. > :35:19.greatest proportion of their estate in listed buildings, we all
:35:19. > :35:24.immediately think of Oxford and Cambridge. Actually, they're a way
:35:24. > :35:28.down the list. It's the small niche institutions that are going to be
:35:28. > :35:31.greatest hit. Baroness Deech is still with us. We
:35:31. > :35:37.heard there supporting the Government's line that this is
:35:37. > :35:40.about a a fundraising measure and simplification of the tack system -
:35:40. > :35:43.- tax system. It's a bad situation indeed and the story is broader
:35:43. > :35:47.than appears at first. What the Government is doing is giving
:35:47. > :35:53.universities money on the one hand, and then taking it away. The
:35:53. > :35:58.calculation has been carried out that this change in VAT will cost
:35:58. > :36:05.the whole sector �150 million over the next few years, which ekwauts
:36:05. > :36:07.to something like like -- �780 million needed in additional
:36:07. > :36:11.endowment which isn't there. The universities, to meet this bill,
:36:11. > :36:16.will have to make money out of the resources they were putting into
:36:16. > :36:20.bursaries for poor students. will affect the - they will take it
:36:20. > :36:26.directly from there? universities have a limited budget
:36:26. > :36:31.and they can't really go to their alumni and say give us money to pay.
:36:31. > :36:35.I bet they do. They will give money for causes close to their hearts
:36:35. > :36:40.like student bursaries and my guess is this will come from bursaries.
:36:40. > :36:44.suppose cow say is now they've changed that tax system, are
:36:44. > :36:47.alterations needed that often? Unnecessary alterations I am sure
:36:47. > :36:50.were undertaken because they didn't have to pay VAT in the past?
:36:50. > :36:55.universities don't have money to do unnecessary alterations but they
:36:55. > :36:59.have to do alterations all the time. Laboratories, which are an housed
:36:59. > :37:03.in old buildings need changing all the time. Student accommodation,
:37:03. > :37:07.you need to fit in more teaching rooms. I can assure you that right
:37:07. > :37:10.through the year universities are planning needed alterations and
:37:10. > :37:15.scratching around to find money. So this is really very bad indeed.
:37:15. > :37:22.It's bad news all round. The Government could get itself off the
:37:22. > :37:26.hook by... Another you-turn? Yes, they won't do another U-turn. They
:37:26. > :37:30.did one in this ill-thought out Budget over pasties, which is a
:37:30. > :37:35.shame because pasties are not good for you and caravans, what they
:37:35. > :37:39.could do here is exempt charityably owned buildings from this new tax
:37:39. > :37:45.and that would help universities. But they really must do something.
:37:45. > :37:49.The universities cannot spend �150 million on this. Many people will
:37:49. > :37:53.say look in these times that doesn't sound like a huge amount of
:37:53. > :37:58.money in the scheme of things over a period of years. It's very large.
:37:58. > :38:01.The universities scrape pennies and every extra they possibly have goes
:38:01. > :38:06.into supporting students. Let's look at another issue, and that's
:38:06. > :38:10.access to universities. Cambridge admissions tutor said over the
:38:10. > :38:14.weekend lowering entry requirements in an attempt to widen access would
:38:14. > :38:18.be cruel, which is an interesting word to use. Do you agree with him?
:38:18. > :38:24.Absolutely. I am very glad to say that Cambridge and I think Oxford,
:38:24. > :38:28.I am sure, are standing firm in the face of pressure. As we were saying
:38:28. > :38:31.earlier with GCSEs, you can't engineer the grades to meet a
:38:31. > :38:35.particular Government objective. Cambridge and Oxford and most
:38:35. > :38:39.universities have quite enough candidates with good grades to
:38:39. > :38:43.choose from. What about access? What about access from the state
:38:43. > :38:46.schools system when you look at the figures and and it still shows a
:38:46. > :38:50.high percentage of students from the private sector getting into
:38:50. > :38:54.Oxford and Cambridge and the only actually have 7% of the population.
:38:54. > :39:02.Coy go on about this for a long time. First of all, what's damaging
:39:02. > :39:04.to access are the messages given out occasionally by Professor Edon
:39:04. > :39:12.indicating, suggesting that universities discriminate which
:39:12. > :39:15.they certainly don't. They want to have a broad base of students.
:39:15. > :39:19.course they do. There is no discrimination. The problem is the
:39:19. > :39:23.schools and sometimes the families with a great deal of poverty of
:39:23. > :39:27.aspiration, they say to the students no, you can't do this or
:39:27. > :39:31.we don't want to you leave home or universities is not for you. It's
:39:31. > :39:33.not a question of poverty, because if you can manage to get to
:39:33. > :39:38.university you are supported and subsidised all the way through.
:39:38. > :39:42.It's a question of getting families to adjust their thinking and say to
:39:42. > :39:49.every child, you too can go, we will not stand in your way.
:39:49. > :39:53.right, thank you. The Shadow Chancellor, Ed Balls,
:39:53. > :39:56.has had a difficult time at the TUC Conference. He was heckled after
:39:56. > :39:59.suggesting that a Labour Government would have to make difficult
:39:59. > :40:02.decisions on pay and pensions. Mr Balls then went on to argue that
:40:02. > :40:05.Labour has to be honest with the British people in order to gain
:40:06. > :40:09.credibility and he said the last thing the public want at the moment
:40:09. > :40:13.is any more strikes. Here's a flavour of what he had to say.
:40:13. > :40:17.say strikes must always be a last resort. I am sure the last thing
:40:17. > :40:20.the vast majority of trade union members want at a time of such
:40:20. > :40:24.uncertainty in our economy is strikes over the coming months.
:40:25. > :40:29.It's not what we want, it's not what the public want but when
:40:29. > :40:35.coalition Ministers warn they will have to act and legislate if they
:40:35. > :40:40.see a return to the unrest of the 1980s, what we are really seeing is
:40:40. > :40:43.Tories itching to provoke a row about strikes so they can blame the
:40:43. > :40:50.stalling recovery on trade union members and working people.
:40:50. > :40:53.APPLAUSE. Let's be honest, it should be David Cameron and George
:40:53. > :40:56.Osborne and Nick Clegg, they're the ones who should be admitting now
:40:56. > :41:01.their plan has failed and change course. It's them who should be
:41:01. > :41:06.changing course in the coming months. Let us say loud and clear,
:41:06. > :41:10.nobody here wants a return to the 1980s. We don't want a return to
:41:10. > :41:17.the hatred and division and confrontation of the is the 80s. We
:41:17. > :41:19.don't want a return to the strikes and lost working days.
:41:19. > :41:22.And we're joined now by Labour's Shadow Financial Secretary to the
:41:22. > :41:25.Treasury, Chris Leslie. Welcome back to the programme. We heard Ed
:41:25. > :41:29.Balls say no one wants a return to the 1980s with lost days of work
:41:29. > :41:35.but that he understands that the unions want action now and that it
:41:35. > :41:39.is the Tory-led Government that is trying to provoke a row. What is
:41:39. > :41:43.Labour's policy, does Labour condemn any strike action? Well, we
:41:43. > :41:46.are sort of seeing Ministers licking their lips at the prospect
:41:46. > :41:49.of strike action. We haven't actually seen ballots taking place.
:41:49. > :41:53.We have the promise of ballots taking place and we have had
:41:53. > :41:57.teachers unions saying they will take days of action. Does Labour
:41:57. > :42:03.support that? Or condemn it? have to recognise is there is a lot
:42:03. > :42:06.of anger. A lot of impatience for a strong critique, challenge to the
:42:06. > :42:09.Government's policy. Of course people are going to be impatient,
:42:09. > :42:13.particularly if they're public sector workers. You have to
:42:13. > :42:16.recognise also for the public a lot of strike action is very
:42:16. > :42:21.inconvenient. It causes a lot of disruption and so we want to see
:42:21. > :42:24.strike action avoided. We don't think that strike action is always
:42:25. > :42:28.the best way of voicing a grievance but that's not the same thing as
:42:28. > :42:30.saying we don't stand on the same side of many of those working in
:42:30. > :42:35.the public sector who are fed up with the way that they've been
:42:35. > :42:39.treated by the Government. Just to be clear, Ed Miliband said the
:42:39. > :42:42.public doesn't want to see strikes nor do members, nor do you, nor
:42:42. > :42:48.does the Labour Party? We don't want to see strike action, of
:42:48. > :42:52.course we don't. You will condemn it in ballots take place, you have
:42:52. > :42:55.set out it's not the right time, if strike action is voted for, you
:42:55. > :43:00.will condemn it? The trade union members themselves have to make
:43:00. > :43:03.their own decision about how they express their discontent and of
:43:03. > :43:07.course there are long-standing rights for working people to
:43:07. > :43:14.organise and to express their view. Our point of view is that strike
:43:14. > :43:17.action can be harmful and in many ways plays into some of the sort of
:43:17. > :43:22.hand-rubbing of Conservative Ministers who want to have another
:43:22. > :43:25.way of pointing to a blame for the failing economy so they point to
:43:25. > :43:30.the snow or the Royal wedding or bank holiday. They would love to
:43:30. > :43:32.point to strike action and those nasty nasty 1970s trade unions as
:43:32. > :43:36.they characterise them as responsible for all the economy's
:43:36. > :43:38.woes and that's what Ed Balls was saying today, be careful not to
:43:38. > :43:42.fall into the trap that the Government is setting here. What
:43:42. > :43:46.about the trap that's being perhaps set for Labour? Why don't you make
:43:46. > :43:48.it clear in the way that Ed Balls clearly set out in that speech,
:43:48. > :43:52.that there will be difficult difficult decisions on pay and
:43:52. > :43:56.pensions. He was heckled. That might help you, of course, seeing
:43:56. > :44:00.Ed Balls, the Shadow Chancellor, heckled in terms of the public
:44:00. > :44:04.perception of the Labour Party, but if you can make difficult decisions
:44:04. > :44:10.on pay and pensions and back the public sector pay freeze why can't
:44:10. > :44:13.you just say we condemn strike action? Because all the trade
:44:14. > :44:18.unionists have their right, as working people to look at their
:44:18. > :44:21.collective bargaining in their own workplace. Our point of view is in
:44:21. > :44:26.a hypothetical scenario where we haven't got strikes such as people
:44:26. > :44:30.have been pointing to in the offing, we want to say let's avoid them.
:44:30. > :44:33.Let's be more mature about these things, let's have an approach
:44:33. > :44:36.where people sort these things out, rather than play politics with it.
:44:36. > :44:39.Sometimes the politics is on both sides of the ekwaugs but the --
:44:39. > :44:44.equation but the Government are licking their lips at the prospect
:44:44. > :44:49.of mass strike action. That's the worry we have. In terms of Ed Balls
:44:49. > :44:55.being heckled and someone shouting oud "rubbish", do you think trade
:44:55. > :44:59.union members are out of touch? Look, they want the best deal for
:44:59. > :45:04.their colleagues, the workforce in the public sector have been working
:45:04. > :45:08.under quite difficult circumstances recently. The pay freeze has been
:45:08. > :45:11.really difficult. In an ideal world of course we would all want to see
:45:11. > :45:18.people get pay which could keep pace with the cost of living. The
:45:18. > :45:24.difficulty we have is because of the poor management of the economy
:45:24. > :45:28.and the state of the public sector finances, we can't say yes we would
:45:28. > :45:33.give wonderfully large pay awards. Because they're unaffordable.
:45:33. > :45:37.have to protect jobs and making sure tkpwu for job creation ahead
:45:37. > :45:41.of high pay awards for public sector. That's a difficult message
:45:41. > :45:45.to give but it's important that the Labour Party is clear, we won't be
:45:45. > :45:54.frightened of making those tough decisions. Should we end up having
:45:54. > :45:59.to mop up a big deficit that George Ed Miliband also criticised the
:45:59. > :46:03.coalition, for cutting the top-rate of tax. The Labour Party has
:46:03. > :46:06.criticised it. Would you reverse that? We don't know what
:46:06. > :46:10.circumstances we will inherit. say you will stick to the pay
:46:10. > :46:13.freeze. Would you reverse the 45p. We are not in the position to write
:46:13. > :46:17.manifestos. We are saying during the course of this Parliament, it
:46:17. > :46:21.is perverse to be cutting the top rate of tax from the wealthiest 1p
:46:21. > :46:25.at a time when you are raising it for pensioners and raising VAT for
:46:25. > :46:30.everyone else. We don't know what the state the public finances will
:46:30. > :46:35.be in 2015 but I have to say they are not looking pretty good. Andy
:46:35. > :46:38.Murray did his bit last night. It was a fantastic win in the US Open
:46:38. > :46:42.but with the Olympics Parade finishing yesterday, it definitely
:46:42. > :46:45.feels that the summer of sport is coming to an end. The Olympics and
:46:45. > :46:48.Paralympics have captured the imagination of millions up and down
:46:48. > :46:51.the country, not just because of the incredible achievements of the
:46:51. > :46:56.athletes but also because of the games volunteers. The servicemen
:46:56. > :47:00.and women and the organisers who made it all possible. Here's what
:47:00. > :47:06.Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London had to say at the parade yesterday.
:47:06. > :47:10.This was euro achievement. You, you brought this country together in a
:47:11. > :47:17.way we never expected. You wroughted the doubters and you
:47:17. > :47:21.scattered the gloomsterss. And for the first time in living memory you
:47:21. > :47:26.caused tube train passengers to break into spontaneous conversation
:47:26. > :47:31.with their neighbours, about subjects other than their trod-on
:47:31. > :47:36.toes. You showed every child in this country that success is not
:47:36. > :47:40.just about talent and luck, but about grit and guts and hard work
:47:40. > :47:45.and coming back from defeat. And by the way, you showed fantastic grace
:47:45. > :47:49.in victory, and amazing courage in defeat. Boris Johnson, stealing the
:47:49. > :47:53.show as he so often does. What lessons can our politicians take
:47:53. > :47:58.from the Games and can any of it apply to other parts of the
:47:58. > :48:05.Government? That's one of the themes Matthew Taylor the Chief
:48:05. > :48:09.Executive of the RSA and former executive of Downing Street who
:48:09. > :48:14.joins us now with Jesse Norman, takes up. It is all very well
:48:14. > :48:17.saying it has been wonderful, and it has and the coming together and
:48:17. > :48:21.will it ever apply to any other part of Government? I think there
:48:21. > :48:25.is an important lesson to be learned. I think the reason it was
:48:25. > :48:28.so amazing was it combined three things, the three forces that make
:48:28. > :48:33.changes happen in society. One is authority, the state. The
:48:33. > :48:39.organisation was great, the planning was great it, all worked.
:48:39. > :48:43.Surprisingly from a lot of people's perspective. Secondly what
:48:44. > :48:47.sociologists might call solidarity. So the nation was behind it, the
:48:47. > :48:49.volunteer force, people giving their own time and thirdly,
:48:50. > :48:54.individual aspiration because in the end it is about athletes
:48:54. > :48:56.winning gold medals. That combination, individualism, social
:48:56. > :48:59.solidarity, hierarchy, that's a combination that you need to solve
:48:59. > :49:02.problems. The problem is that generally speaking, outside of the
:49:02. > :49:08.Olympics, we don't have that combination. We don't trust the
:49:08. > :49:12.Government. Big organisations have all sorts of problems and in many
:49:12. > :49:18.ways social solidarity has got weaker, which is why David Cameron
:49:18. > :49:22.had the Big Society. As a society we are individualistic and we have
:49:22. > :49:26.to restore our faith in our capacity to do big things.
:49:26. > :49:30.Government the agent to do that. You have just said trust in
:49:30. > :49:34.politicians is at an all-time low. Really you are admitting they are
:49:34. > :49:38.not going to be able it harness the goodwill created. You can see the
:49:39. > :49:43.pictures of the public support. Incredible. Even 1 million out
:49:43. > :49:45.yesterday that. It will not be possible to translate that into
:49:45. > :49:49.something as important as social poll sifrpblgts I have suggested
:49:49. > :49:53.beforehand, that one of the reasons the Olympics worked was once the
:49:53. > :49:56.bid had won we had to deliver by that certain date. However much
:49:56. > :50:01.people might have moaned about Olympic laenges or planning
:50:01. > :50:04.permission or the money, we had to get on and do it. -- Olympic lanes.
:50:04. > :50:08.Look at runways around London, Government hasn't the capacity to
:50:08. > :50:12.say - we have made the decision, we will stick to it. Do you think
:50:12. > :50:16.that's enough to bring in a local organiser to do this. Is he really
:50:16. > :50:19.going to be able to achieve what has been outline bid Matthew
:50:19. > :50:23.Taylor? He has phenomenal credentials, for me the great
:50:23. > :50:27.lesson of the Olympics is that actually it allowed us to Quarry
:50:27. > :50:33.something in our own character as a country which is why the opening
:50:33. > :50:36.ceremony was amazing. It reminded vast numbers of people up and down
:50:36. > :50:41.the British Isles that we have an extraordinary history. If we go
:50:41. > :50:48.back to that we can see the combination of individual endever
:50:48. > :50:52.and collective industry. And the big "Big society". It hasn't been
:50:52. > :50:56.talked about but it encapsulated the "big society", or at least I
:50:56. > :51:00.think what was intended by David Cameron. I think it Zwhat was
:51:00. > :51:04.interesting was it was a vision of society which involved a degree of
:51:05. > :51:10.state spending and prieming but it really relied on the games makers
:51:10. > :51:15.and volunteers -- and priming. And anyone who went to that was
:51:15. > :51:20.staggered by the lifting of the spirts from the volunteers.
:51:20. > :51:24.Matthew said, the things about volunteering it was for a time-
:51:24. > :51:29.limited period. People gave their time free, they weren't earning
:51:29. > :51:33.kawe ply that model to business? feel sad about it. I think I'm an
:51:33. > :51:37.Olympic spirit dissident. The day the Olympics ended, the trade
:51:37. > :51:42.unions announced strikes. The teaching unions don't want to do,
:51:42. > :51:46.are refusing to do supervision of after-hours school sport and so on.
:51:46. > :51:51.So where is the spirit? Should they be made to do that free of charge?
:51:51. > :51:54.You can't make them but where is the great big social solidarity?
:51:54. > :51:59.And individual aspiration? It is a wonderful thing but when it comes,
:51:59. > :52:02.you know, in the Olympics you start with taking people who have natural
:52:02. > :52:07.talent. You choose them, you take them out of school, you train them
:52:07. > :52:10.especial li, you applaud them, they work 45 and win gold. Why doesn't
:52:10. > :52:13.that apply negligentcation and business? I agreement it is a
:52:13. > :52:17.special place. That's what I'm saying in my lecture. We have to
:52:17. > :52:21.understand how it is we rebuild social solidarity, which has been
:52:21. > :52:24.weakened by the fact we are a more diverse population and we have less
:52:24. > :52:28.money. All the things that undermine solidarity of people
:52:28. > :52:32.living in communities just like them. We have to see how we restore
:52:32. > :52:36.political authority. Barack Obama was trying to say some of these
:52:36. > :52:41.things last week in his speech. He was saying in the end changes isn't
:52:41. > :52:44.about me, if you elect me to do it I'm not going to do it, it is about
:52:44. > :52:47.citizens themselves doing it. We have to explor how we rekindle the
:52:47. > :52:50.sources of power. -- explore. This weekend hundreds of thousands of
:52:50. > :52:56.parents all around the country will be making little football matches
:52:56. > :53:00.work with their kids. Absolutely. That's the level at which it stays,
:53:00. > :53:04.which is what I'm trying to say. take issue with Ruth, if I may, the
:53:04. > :53:08.whole point is if you put people in a hierarchy, you take away their
:53:08. > :53:13.individual incentives to get out and make changes in their own
:53:13. > :53:21.families and neighbourhoods. If you money advertise their incentives,
:53:21. > :53:27.you take a lot away -- monetaryise. We have to do something, starting
:53:27. > :53:31.small and growing bigger bigger. has to be something that people
:53:31. > :53:34.believe in. The counterpart is you are viewing someone as a creature
:53:34. > :53:38.of habit and once you start it, you can build on, that rather than
:53:38. > :53:40.saying everything is about money. One of the problems of the "big
:53:40. > :53:45.society" there was no kft why individuals would want to do more
:53:45. > :53:50.about this. -- no account of. If the Olympics, you get a uniform, it
:53:50. > :53:55.was exciting, for a time-limited period.
:53:55. > :53:59.Chapter 6 of my book. Thank you for that little reference. Thank you.
:53:59. > :54:02.Bars are stock up, the speeches are being written and restaurants being
:54:02. > :54:05.booked. Ye, it is the conference season. The TUC gathering is
:54:05. > :54:10.already under way and in just under two weeks, the Liberal Democrats
:54:10. > :54:15.kick off for the three main parties is. There any point in them any
:54:15. > :54:20.more? A report from the Policy Review Intelligence think-tank
:54:20. > :54:27.suggests it isn't working suggests having all three konchess in one
:54:27. > :54:37.city over a tele-week period. -- all three conferences. Here is a
:54:37. > :54:44.
:54:44. > :54:54.# Can't get away it marry you today # My wife won't let me... #
:54:54. > :54:54.
:54:54. > :55:04.You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning.
:55:04. > :55:12.Go back to your constituencies and prepare for Government.
:55:12. > :55:15.And you end in the grotesque chaos of a Labour Council, a Labour
:55:15. > :55:18.Council hiring taxis to scuttle around a city handing out
:55:19. > :55:28.redundancy notices to its own workers.
:55:28. > :55:33.I've got a little list, of benefit offenders, who I'll soon be rooting
:55:33. > :55:41.out, and who never would be missed. They never would be missed.
:55:41. > :55:47.So there you have it, the final proof, Labour's brand new, shining,
:55:47. > :55:51.modernist, economic dream tpwu, wasn't Browns, it was balls -- but
:55:51. > :55:58.it wasn't Brown's. Hubble, bubble, toil and trouble. The Tory Party's
:55:58. > :56:08.reDawesed to rubble. The quiet man is here to stay and
:56:08. > :56:11.
:56:11. > :56:17.At least I don't have to worry about her running off with the
:56:17. > :56:21.bloke next door! Some of the best conference joke
:56:21. > :56:24.there is. It takes you back a bit. Gavin and Stewart with with me now.
:56:24. > :56:29.Gavin we can see from that little collection of films and clips that
:56:29. > :56:32.this is the highlight of the political year? Absolutely. But I
:56:32. > :56:37.think the problem we have got at the moment is that the party
:56:37. > :56:40.conferences have somewhat got a bit sort of out-moded and, of course,
:56:40. > :56:45.no-one's particularly seriously arguing that we should abolish them,
:56:45. > :56:49.but the point being that they need modernising, transforming. There
:56:49. > :56:54.are issues of accessibility. If you are attending the conference, you
:56:54. > :56:58.can easily spend �1,000 on accreditation and accommodation, so
:56:58. > :57:02.you have access problems. If you are an organisation, you can
:57:03. > :57:07.literally spend tens of thousands of pounds, you know organising
:57:07. > :57:11.fringe events, exhibiting, all the rest of it. We have actually, in
:57:11. > :57:18.this country, got some really interesting events that take place,
:57:18. > :57:21.like the Haye, festival and Edinburgh Festival. Maybe our
:57:21. > :57:25.political conferences should be models a bit more like that. If we
:57:25. > :57:29.cut the costs and perhaps shorten them - they have been a bit - and
:57:29. > :57:34.make better access, they would be fantastic. Well looking at the
:57:34. > :57:39.greatest hits in conferences takes me back to really what they were,
:57:39. > :57:44.which was policy-making for ordinary party members which could
:57:44. > :57:50.engage with serious people making decision abouts the country. They
:57:50. > :57:53.are far too corporate. I remember the conference in the waifbg our
:57:53. > :57:58.exit from the Exchange Rate Mechanism when Norman Tebbit got up
:57:58. > :58:02.and gave John Major one between the eyes. Whru agreed or didn't, it was
:58:02. > :58:08.electric, hence -- whether you agreed or didn't, it was electric.
:58:08. > :58:13.And also the Neil Kinnock speech's. It is more corporate and dull.!
:58:13. > :58:18.MPs want to go? No, I don't think they do. I think the whole naturer
:58:18. > :58:25.of political campaign changed. The idea when I was in the my teens, I
:58:25. > :58:30.would go to a conference, and sit and listen to a cabinet minister,
:58:30. > :58:34.drone on for 20 minutes and have a few clap lines, it is all gone now.
:58:34. > :58:39.You could do the things you are suggesting to modernise it, but in
:58:39. > :58:44.the end they are no longer the great debating centres they used to
:58:44. > :58:50.be, policy and ideology is already decided. That's the point why I
:58:50. > :58:54.make about the fringe because the vibe Rabcy and the exciting element
:58:54. > :58:59.is not the main event in the centre which is all contrived for the
:58:59. > :59:03.media, it is what goes on, on the outskirts. We have ten seconds. Are
:59:03. > :59:08.you going? Stpoo I try to, but I can't see how you get there. I
:59:08. > :59:11.logged on to see if I could. They are too expensive and stage-managed
:59:11. > :59:16.but give members of the public an unrivaled opportunity it see these
:59:16. > :59:19.people in action. For those of us who don't want Parliament live,
:59:19. > :59:23.this is the chance to see it. I wouldn't have done without those