12/09/2012

:00:48. > :00:52.Good morning. This is The Daily Politics. The President of the

:00:52. > :00:57.European Commission has called for the EU to be turned into a

:00:57. > :01:02.federation of nation states. In his annual address to the European

:01:02. > :01:07.Parliament, Jose Manuel Barroso also called for a eurozone banking

:01:07. > :01:11.union, a mechanism for all 6,000 banks in the eurozone. It will

:01:11. > :01:15.probably put him on a collision course with the City of London.

:01:15. > :01:18.The families of the Liverpool supporters who lost their lives in

:01:18. > :01:22.the Hillsborough stadium disaster have begun examining thousands of

:01:22. > :01:25.previously unreleased documents, which they hope will challenge the

:01:25. > :01:31.official version of what happened. The Prime Minister will address the

:01:31. > :01:34.Commons on the issue while we are on air. And spare a thought for Mr

:01:34. > :01:40.Cameron - Boris appears to have stolen his thunder. Will Ed

:01:40. > :01:49.Miliband do the same at PMQs? And we have sent Adam to the tower.

:01:49. > :01:54.That's what makes the pendulum swing.

:01:54. > :01:59.So, all that and more coming up in the next 90 minutes of pure TV gold.

:01:59. > :02:04.Joining us for the duration, a couple of chaps of undisputed

:02:04. > :02:07.integrity and standing - at least, that's what it says here. David

:02:07. > :02:10.Willetts, the Universities Minister, and Douglas Alexander, the Shadow

:02:10. > :02:15.Foreign Secretary. It also says they have an advanced understanding

:02:15. > :02:19.of markets, and good economic knowledge. Well, actually, it does

:02:19. > :02:22.not say that of them. This is the advertisement which is going to

:02:22. > :02:27.appear on Friday in the Economist for the job of Governor of the Bank

:02:27. > :02:31.of England. Fancy that, either of you? I think it is great that we

:02:31. > :02:36.are opening up the process of recruiting for this post. We are

:02:36. > :02:40.barely into the programme, and you answer a totally different question.

:02:40. > :02:49.Of course, if you might wish to apply yourself, you could give it a

:02:49. > :02:55.go. It was a Scot who founded it. And it was an Englishman who

:02:55. > :03:01.founded the bank of Scotland. Do you fancy it? I am happy in my job,

:03:01. > :03:04.although I would like to lose the title Shadow. Very well paid.

:03:04. > :03:10.feeling more interested, but I think actually I should stick with

:03:10. > :03:14.government. Complete waste of time, that. Let's see if we can do better

:03:14. > :03:23.on transport. Later today, the new Transport Secretary, Patrick

:03:23. > :03:28.McLoughlan, will be giving evidence to the Treasury -- to the Transport

:03:28. > :03:33.Select Committee. He will have a lot to talk about. A runway or not

:03:33. > :03:39.at Heathrow? The West Coast Main Line - should Mr Brunson hold on to

:03:39. > :03:44.it? And the little issue of the high-speed rail line. Joining us to

:03:45. > :03:47.talk about all of that and a few other things, we have the former

:03:47. > :03:57.Welsh secretary Cheryl Gillan, who was in the Cabinet until last week,

:03:57. > :04:02.and who indeed sat beside David Willetts. We have got Mr Alexander

:04:02. > :04:08.keeping your part, for health and safety reasons! We normally have a

:04:08. > :04:12.Oliver Letwin between us! Before I come on to some of these issues,

:04:12. > :04:17.leaving the Cabinet - do you think you were treated unfairly? Not at

:04:17. > :04:21.all. The joy of being a Prime Minister is that you can decide who

:04:21. > :04:26.you have in your Cabinet. There is no secret, David has always said

:04:26. > :04:29.that he wanted a Welsh MP to be the Welsh Secretary. I had done the job

:04:29. > :04:36.for seven years in opposition. He also knew the difficulty that I

:04:36. > :04:42.have with this project, HS2. I have nothing to regret, quite the

:04:42. > :04:47.reverse. What was the conversation? I am not going to go into all the

:04:47. > :04:52.tittle-tattle surrounding that. is interesting. Why did he say he

:04:52. > :04:56.wanted you to go? He said he had always known that he wanted a Welsh

:04:56. > :05:00.MP eventually, which is white. Don't forget, we have had

:05:00. > :05:04.tremendous success in Wales, building up from no MPs at all to

:05:04. > :05:10.three, and then eight. We topped the polls in the European elections.

:05:10. > :05:13.We have proved that we can see Labour off in Wales. Labour has had

:05:13. > :05:19.a stranglehold on Wales for a long time. Was he's sipping a glass of

:05:19. > :05:23.wine when he fired you? Listen, I have answered so many questions on

:05:23. > :05:27.this, I am not going to discuss... I am not going to discuss anything

:05:27. > :05:31.that went on in my exchanges with the Prime Minister. I have always

:05:31. > :05:35.been a good number of our party, and of the Cabinet, and I have no

:05:35. > :05:39.intention of talking about those things which are between a Prime

:05:39. > :05:45.Minister and an ex-Cabinet minister. It is my job to try. I have no

:05:45. > :05:52.doubt it will come out one day. I am not that sort of politician,

:05:52. > :05:58.either. I am not really that sort of politician. What does the future

:05:58. > :06:02.hold for you now? Is your political career now simply condemned to

:06:02. > :06:05.being on the backbenches, or even worse, the House of Lords? Well,

:06:05. > :06:10.first of all, you're not necessarily condemned to the

:06:10. > :06:13.backbenches. Quarter to the longest serving woman on our benches, only

:06:13. > :06:19.the sixth woman Cabinet minister that the Conservative Party has

:06:19. > :06:24.produced.. Only six? Does that include Mrs Thatcher? It does!

:06:24. > :06:30.Under was the youngest woman minister in John Major's government.

:06:30. > :06:34.That is quite an amazing statistic. And I am only 60, and I mean only

:06:34. > :06:37.60. I think If you're going to say that women are on the scrapheap

:06:37. > :06:42.when they get to 60, then there will be a lot of us that will

:06:42. > :06:46.disagree with that. Absolutely! question was not to do with gender,

:06:46. > :06:51.it was about what happens to a politician like you when you're no

:06:51. > :06:56.longer in the Cabinet, and probably will not be again. Well, you never

:06:56. > :07:02.say never. But secondly, I think you have got to remember that every

:07:02. > :07:06.MP represents a constituency, and unlike in Wales, where a

:07:06. > :07:09.constituency MP has a first-past- the-post Assembly member, and all

:07:09. > :07:16.of those list Assembly members to do the same job, there is plenty to

:07:16. > :07:21.do. HS2 is of course, really key. It is planned to go through your

:07:21. > :07:28.constituency. Absolutely, right through the middle. What do you

:07:28. > :07:32.feel? Do you think HS2 will go ahead? I very much hope it will not.

:07:32. > :07:36.There are two reasons - first of all, it is not a good value for

:07:36. > :07:39.money project. Secondly, by the time it will be built, not only

:07:39. > :07:44.will it have destroyed some precious environment, but I think

:07:44. > :07:48.the world of work and the way we do business will have changed. We are

:07:48. > :07:56.talking 2026-36. Therefore, I think at the moment, particularly with

:07:56. > :07:59.the current economic conditions in this country, and it looks as

:07:59. > :08:03.though we're going to be in this economic downturn for quite some

:08:03. > :08:06.time, I would like to see the money and the efforts which we are

:08:06. > :08:11.expanding on that put in too much quicker things, better projects,

:08:11. > :08:15.for example, the project that I pushed for in Wales, the

:08:15. > :08:18.electrification of those lines down to Swansea, which will mean so much,

:08:19. > :08:24.and that link into Heathrow. I would like to see the new Transport

:08:24. > :08:29.Minister, who was a good friend of mine, giving a fresh think on this.

:08:29. > :08:33.Do you think he will? I hope so, we shall see. He is giving evidence at

:08:33. > :08:36.2:30pm. The challenge for Patrick McLoughlan is to come in and have a

:08:36. > :08:41.fresh approach. There have been stories that the Government is not

:08:41. > :08:45.quite as committed to this as has been made out, what do you feel?

:08:45. > :08:49.watched the Chancellor yesterday, and I tweeted, lukewarm. I detected

:08:49. > :08:56.less certainty about this project. It has been one of the flagship

:08:56. > :09:02.project, it was a Labour project. I was in as fast as I could do object

:09:02. > :09:05.to it when Labour announced it. I discussed it at length in

:09:06. > :09:09.opposition with the then Shadow Transport Minister, and I was quite

:09:09. > :09:13.convinced that it would either not go ahead, or it would go ahead on a

:09:13. > :09:17.different route. There is no value to constituencies such as mine,

:09:17. > :09:22.because there is no stop in Buckinghamshire. If it was going to

:09:22. > :09:26.Milton Keynes, maybe there would be a different attitude, although

:09:26. > :09:29.ultimately, I have to say that if we go to designate something as an

:09:29. > :09:33.Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, I think we should be looking after

:09:34. > :09:41.that. Is the Government completely committed to this?

:09:41. > :09:45.Yes, it is. I respect Cheryl Gillan's constituency issue, I

:09:45. > :09:50.understand it. But this is exactly the kind of infrastructure we need

:09:50. > :09:55.to be investing in for the future of our country. Why? Because I

:09:55. > :10:00.think that people, however advanced the economy is, people want to move

:10:00. > :10:06.around, to meet physically. In terms of the future of our great

:10:06. > :10:13.cities, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, this is absolutely crucial.

:10:13. > :10:16.But I can get to Manchester in 90 minutes. -- I can get to Birmingham.

:10:16. > :10:20.I like the 90 minutes, it gives me a chance to have a cup of coffee

:10:20. > :10:25.and read the papers. Indeed, I might not have to go to Birmingham

:10:25. > :10:33.so often if you gave me a proper broadband, the kind of broadband

:10:33. > :10:37.the South Koreans have - why do you not give me that instead? We can

:10:37. > :10:43.put you in a siding for half-an- hour if you wish! But the evidence

:10:43. > :10:47.is that this does not reduce the need for people physically to meet,

:10:47. > :10:54.all that carries on. I have to say, really, for the great cities

:10:54. > :10:57.outside London, this really is essential. The Public Accounts

:10:57. > :11:03.Committee looked at this project, and one of the things that was

:11:03. > :11:07.really interesting was that nobody has yet sturdy what would happen

:11:07. > :11:11.the �32 billion, at 2011 prices - it is going to be a lot more than

:11:11. > :11:14.that - what would happen if that money was spent on things like

:11:14. > :11:18.super high-speed broadband? We have proved that people can survive

:11:18. > :11:24.without travelling too much. We have kept people out of central

:11:24. > :11:29.London throughout the Paralympics and the Olympics very successfully.

:11:29. > :11:33.His Labour still committed to this? It is. Let me try to answer both of

:11:33. > :11:37.these points. One of the difficulties of sinking that kind

:11:37. > :11:40.of capital into broadband is that frankly, the technology has changed

:11:40. > :11:46.rapidly over the last decade, in terms of how to deliver a super

:11:46. > :11:51.broadband. Secondly, the future is that the West Coast Main Line is

:11:51. > :11:55.simply filling up. We face a choice - are we going to do what has been

:11:55. > :11:58.the traditional British approach, of patching up and mending, like we

:11:58. > :12:03.did to the West Coast Main Line, basic are performing open-heart

:12:03. > :12:11.surgery on a Victorian railway? Or do we recognise that we have got a

:12:11. > :12:15.challenge for the cities of Manchester and Leeds...? You will

:12:15. > :12:19.be on the benches of the House of Lords by the time this happens.

:12:19. > :12:25.years! If we are serious about rebalancing the economy, we need

:12:25. > :12:32.that investment. Why does it help the North making it easier for

:12:32. > :12:38.people to travel to the south? It will just make it a huge suburb of

:12:38. > :12:42.London? No. Frankly, it connects these areas to the rest of Europe.

:12:42. > :12:45.Frankly, all of the economic studies indicate greater

:12:45. > :12:51.connectivity is going to be one thing which Britain needs in the

:12:51. > :12:54.future. We will have to leave that subject there. Earlier this morning,

:12:54. > :12:57.the Education Secretary, Michael Gove, appeared in front of the

:12:57. > :13:00.education Select Committee, where he was being grilled about the GCSE

:13:00. > :13:03.grading fiasco. The Welsh Government has ordered the

:13:03. > :13:06.regrading of English papers following a review, something

:13:06. > :13:09.English students will not be getting. The Education Secretary

:13:09. > :13:12.said this was a big mistake by the Welsh government.

:13:12. > :13:18.I think the decision by the Welsh Education Minister is irresponsible

:13:18. > :13:22.and mistaken. I think he has undermined confidence in Welsh

:13:22. > :13:26.children's GCSEs, and I think he should think again, after having

:13:26. > :13:32.made what I regard to be a regrettable political intervention

:13:32. > :13:36.in what should be a process free from political meddling. Why is it

:13:36. > :13:41.a mistake from the Welsh government? I think it could be,

:13:41. > :13:45.because, if there is no regrading by an independent organisation,

:13:45. > :13:49.such as Ofqual, I think people will look at this cohort of Welsh

:13:49. > :13:55.students and say, there was something not quite right, not

:13:55. > :13:58.comparable with English students. I think Leighton Andrews has always

:13:58. > :14:02.been quick out of the stocks to attack the Westminster government,

:14:02. > :14:07.but let's face it, Labour has been in charge for 13 years in Wales,

:14:07. > :14:11.and educational results have been going down and down. You said

:14:11. > :14:16.regrading, are you suggesting by another body, you would like to see

:14:16. > :14:21.that? I would not like to see regrading of all of those exams. I

:14:21. > :14:25.tend to agree with Michael Gove, because I think they should be left

:14:25. > :14:34.as they stand.. What about the misery for the students who feel

:14:34. > :14:37.their chances have been harmed? don't think they have. I think

:14:37. > :14:41.right across the board, if they were treated in the same way, that

:14:41. > :14:45.would be a different matter. But to separate out English and Welsh

:14:45. > :14:51.students, there are already difficulties over comparing the two,

:14:51. > :14:54.and this will make it worse for those Welsh students. But children

:14:54. > :14:58.have been treated differently already with grading happening

:14:58. > :15:02.during the year. It has been a shambles. Michael's comments this

:15:02. > :15:06.morning revealed that he does not understand devolution. The Welsh

:15:06. > :15:10.Education Minister has the right to make this determination. Secondly,

:15:10. > :15:14.I think it reinforces the urgency of there being much greater clarity

:15:14. > :15:18.as to who ultimately holds the responsibility. In opposition,

:15:18. > :15:23.Michael was at pains to say, it is ministers to decide. At the moment

:15:23. > :15:26.he is seeking to shelter behind Ofqual, and suggest this is a

:15:26. > :15:36.matter without any political involvement. But is it not a matter

:15:36. > :15:46.

:15:46. > :15:49.I'm going to have to leave ill there but thank you very much

:15:49. > :15:54.Cheryl Gillan. A pleasure. Today is a day of important

:15:54. > :15:59.announcements about the euro. This morning the German Constitutional

:15:59. > :16:02.Court gave its backing to the European Stability Mechanism,

:16:02. > :16:05.saying it wasn't unconstitutional. It will be used to support

:16:05. > :16:08.countries in the eurozone that get into trouble - plenty of candidates

:16:09. > :16:15.there. The President of the European Commission, Jose Manuel

:16:15. > :16:20.Barroso, set out the EU's plans on banking union across the eurozone.

:16:20. > :16:25.That's not all. He's also called for a small matter of a federation

:16:25. > :16:30.of European states. What can he mean? Let me try to explain. One of

:16:30. > :16:34.the main causes of the crisis in Europe has be that smaller

:16:34. > :16:38.countries have been overwhelmed by the bad debts their banks have

:16:38. > :16:40.built up. The European Central Bank will take over many of the

:16:40. > :16:45.responsibilities that individual countries's central banks had. The

:16:45. > :16:49.idea is that the massive resource of the ECB will be enough to put

:16:49. > :16:53.out the fires. It also means that other powers will be centralised.

:16:53. > :16:55.President Barroso wants the European banking authority to

:16:55. > :17:00.become the principal regulator of banks in the eurozone. Britain will

:17:00. > :17:06.not be directly involved, because it doesn't use the euro, but bank

:17:06. > :17:08.ers in London are worried that the newly empowered ECB will mean more

:17:08. > :17:12.meddling from Europe. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, George

:17:12. > :17:17.Osborne, says he favour as banking union as long as Britain isn't part

:17:17. > :17:19.of it, but can he make sure the City of London isn't damaged? In

:17:19. > :17:25.his annual State of the Union address President Barroso explained

:17:25. > :17:31.what the EU was doing. Today the commission is proposing legislative

:17:32. > :17:36.proposals for a single supervisery mechanism for the eurozone. This is

:17:36. > :17:40.the stepping stone to the bank union. The crisis has shown that

:17:40. > :17:43.while banks became transMarshall rules and oversight remained

:17:43. > :17:49.national. And when things went wrong it was the taxpayer who is

:17:49. > :17:54.had to pick up the bill. Over the past four years the EU has

:17:54. > :18:00.overruled the rule book for banks. But mere co-ordination is no longer

:18:00. > :18:03.adequate. We need to move to common supervisery decisions, namely

:18:03. > :18:07.within the euro area. But he didn't limit himself to talking about the

:18:07. > :18:14.proposed banking union. He also set out ambitious plans for the future

:18:14. > :18:19.of the EU. The present European Union must evolve. And let's not be

:18:19. > :18:28.afraid of the words. We will need to move towards a federation of

:18:28. > :18:32.nation states. This is what we need. APPLAUSE A deep and genuine and

:18:32. > :18:37.economic monetary union can be started under the current treaties,

:18:37. > :18:42.but can only be completed with changes in the treaties. So let's

:18:42. > :18:49.start it now, but let's have the horizon for the future present in

:18:49. > :18:53.our decisions of today. So the President of the European Union

:18:53. > :18:57.calling for a federal Europe. Are you up for, that Douglas Alexander?

:18:57. > :19:00.It certainly seems to indicate a change from the language

:19:00. > :19:04.historically used by the President of the Council and the commission

:19:04. > :19:07.about closer union. We need to find out what Jose Manuel Barroso, the

:19:08. > :19:12.other members of commission and indeed yore leaders of the European

:19:12. > :19:17.nations see as the way forward. If it does suggest a move away from

:19:17. > :19:22.the theology of ever-closer union, that does suggest there may be a

:19:22. > :19:27.Will be of significance I don't understand that. Surely a federal

:19:27. > :19:31.union and closer European are the same things? He is using the

:19:31. > :19:35.language of confederation. didn't. He used the language of

:19:35. > :19:40.federation, which is very different. It is completely different from

:19:40. > :19:46.ever closer union. Let's be clear what he means. The responsible

:19:46. > :19:50.course is not to jump to our own conclusions gou see what he says

:19:50. > :19:54.and other European leaders say. We've had indications from

:19:54. > :19:59.Chancellor Angela Merkel that change will be necessary. Let's see

:19:59. > :20:04.what emerges in the months ahead. But no-one is proposing a single

:20:04. > :20:09.unitary European superstate. That's never been on the cards. And the

:20:09. > :20:13.Rome treaty of ever closer union never implied that. Many Euro-

:20:13. > :20:18.sceptics would argue that that is the case. That's up to them but I

:20:18. > :20:23.know from history. That part of the Treaty of Rome was drafted by

:20:23. > :20:29.federalists. They want ever closer union. I don't understand why you

:20:29. > :20:33.think that what he is calling is for in anyway delivering a closer

:20:33. > :20:37.union of a federal state. You don't rule out being part of this?

:20:37. > :20:42.not clear what you are asking is, to rule out. Could you see Britain

:20:42. > :20:46.being part of a federal Europe? not clear how he is defining her

:20:46. > :20:51.terms. Are we proposing to leave the European Union? No. Is the

:20:52. > :20:54.European Union going to change? I expect. So is there any appetite

:20:54. > :20:59.among the political parties for further integration of the European

:20:59. > :21:04.Union? There is frankly not. said he is not calling for a

:21:04. > :21:10.superstate - he would say that - but a federation of nation states

:21:10. > :21:13.to tackle our problems. You could say the fact that he is stating

:21:13. > :21:19.nation states recognises the reality, which is that Britain

:21:19. > :21:23.doesn't want to see itself integrated into a European

:21:23. > :21:27.superstate. Nor do many other countries. If he was to get his way

:21:27. > :21:32.the treaties would have to be renegotiated. What would you do?

:21:32. > :21:35.Exactly. My heart sinks when I hear. This euro has to sort out the

:21:35. > :21:41.eurozone. Where there are things we can work together, like the

:21:41. > :21:45.environment, we should. The last thing we need is another agonised

:21:45. > :21:49.debate on all this theology about federalism. Why don't they do the

:21:49. > :21:54.things they can do, get out of the things they shouldn't be doing, and

:21:54. > :21:58.give us break about the continuous debate about how Europe is

:21:58. > :22:02.organised and its constitution. Floss appetite for that in Britain.

:22:02. > :22:08.The real crisis in the eurozone and its finances. All its efforts

:22:08. > :22:11.should be on that. Isn't it likely that Mr Barroso, who doesn't speak

:22:11. > :22:19.for anybody expect the politician, he wasn't elected by anybody, isn't

:22:19. > :22:22.it likely he may not get his way with all the EU members, but the

:22:22. > :22:27.logic of Economic and Monetary Union for the eurozone members is

:22:27. > :22:32.that they will become much closer and much more integrated? I think

:22:32. > :22:35.that is likely. The only difficulty I would have with David's

:22:35. > :22:39.characterisation is this. There may be genuine and profound

:22:39. > :22:42.consequences to that greater integration within the eurozone for

:22:42. > :22:46.the other members, the non-euro members of the European Union. If

:22:46. > :22:51.you have a country of Germany's standing saying we want fundamental

:22:51. > :22:55.treaty change across the whole of the European Union, of course that

:22:55. > :23:00.has implications do. We regard that as a priority in of course we don't.

:23:00. > :23:04.On the other hand it may be coming towards us. That is why we need to

:23:04. > :23:08.understand where the commission is and the other countries are.

:23:08. > :23:16.European-wide banking regulations which are proposed, not popular in

:23:16. > :23:19.Germany. Legislation will go before the Parliament in Strasbourg. That

:23:19. > :23:23.doesn't cover us legally, but it is bound to affect the City of London.

:23:23. > :23:31.What are you going to do about that? It is very important that we

:23:31. > :23:36.protect the interests of the City. We've a, it's a big thing that for

:23:36. > :23:38.the eurozone to work it needs a banking union. One of the many

:23:38. > :23:43.reasons the Conservative Party said we should stay out, they didn't

:23:43. > :23:48.want to be part of that. They need to make it work. Our job in Europe

:23:48. > :23:52.is to protect the principles of single market, so it applies across

:23:52. > :23:55.the European Union, including countries like ourselves not in the

:23:55. > :24:01.eurozone. You have this massive regulator on the other side of the

:24:01. > :24:05.Channel regulating the banks of the biggest economies in Europe. All

:24:05. > :24:09.part of the eurozone. In economies where our banks operate. And yet

:24:09. > :24:13.you will have almost no say on what those bank regulations will be.

:24:13. > :24:16.They will have to decide what they do for the eurozone. On anything

:24:17. > :24:20.that affects us the single market will apply. I have to say, one of

:24:20. > :24:24.the reasons why I'm optimistic that we can continue to protect our

:24:24. > :24:30.interests is that it is so clearly in the interests of the free

:24:30. > :24:33.trading members of the eurozone, Germany and some of the northern

:24:33. > :24:37.European countries in particular, for the single market to include us

:24:37. > :24:40.and for us to be a voice of the free markets. It is clear. They

:24:40. > :24:45.want our voice at the table of the single market and we are not part

:24:45. > :24:50.of the eurozone. In legal terms what matters is the relationship

:24:50. > :24:53.between the European Central Bank and the European Banking Committee,

:24:53. > :25:00.which continues to affect the City in a profound way. In political

:25:00. > :25:10.terms the real question, is do the European countries talk demust a

:25:10. > :25:15.way that if we can legally defend - - do the European countries caucus

:25:15. > :25:19.in a way that if we can legally defend our status. From there

:25:19. > :25:24.Friday we'll be bringing you Daily Politics Europe, giving you the

:25:24. > :25:28.latest news and views on what's going on in the corridors of power

:25:28. > :25:35.in Brussels and Strasbourg. I have to stay here and Jo gets to go to

:25:35. > :25:43.Strasbourg. Didn't he do well? Just come back

:25:43. > :25:47.from New York. Andy Murray's first Grand Slam this week, beating that

:25:47. > :25:54.other Scot, Novak Djokovic. LAUGHTER Yes, it was an all-

:25:54. > :25:57.Scottish final. It was in the bar around the corner. Forget about

:25:57. > :26:02.leaping the net and climbing into the crowd or other showy acts.

:26:03. > :26:08."Muzza" paused only to grab his watch, so he could comply with his

:26:08. > :26:13.rather large sponsorship deal with a certain maker of timepieces. Not

:26:13. > :26:23.to be outdone our Daily Politics mug this week is sponsored by Andy

:26:23. > :26:23.

:26:23. > :26:33.Murray. You can see his true Brit side is displayed, patriotic Ilkley

:26:33. > :26:35.

:26:35. > :26:44.-- patriotic ally. If you are from Dunblane or Dagenham we'll give you

:26:44. > :26:54.full sovereignty over this mug. Who are you calling a mug! Let's

:26:54. > :27:27.

:27:27. > :27:37.see if you can remember after all Everybody wants to know who shot

:27:37. > :27:58.

:27:58. > :28:03.How do you feel about Mr Mugabe's victory? I think it stinks and the

:28:03. > :28:13.British stink with it because you've just give an victory to

:28:13. > :28:22.

:28:22. > :28:26.A bit of Abba there. To be in with a chance of winning a

:28:26. > :28:29.Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special quiz e-mail

:28:29. > :28:38.address. You can see the full terms and

:28:38. > :28:42.conditions on our website. I've just been told there is no

:28:42. > :28:45.WiFi on standard class on the trains.

:28:45. > :28:51.Is that because you are not in standard class?

:28:51. > :28:56.Maybe shoe look at that before you invest in high-speed trains. Can

:28:56. > :29:02.let's look at Big Ben. Prime Minister's Questions on its

:29:02. > :29:07.way at noon. James Landale is with us. Hillsborough dominating the

:29:07. > :29:10.news this morning. Events in Libya also making it. Lots of economic

:29:10. > :29:16.news around as well, some of it heavily to the coalition, like

:29:16. > :29:21.unemployment. Some of it not at all helpful, in that debt is on the

:29:22. > :29:24.rise again. A tricky one for Ed Miliband today. Because of the tone

:29:24. > :29:28.of Prime Minister's Questions, afterwards the statement for

:29:28. > :29:31.Hillsborough, so I think there'll be a temptation for him to choose a

:29:31. > :29:35.subject which perhaps is less confrontational than usual. He

:29:35. > :29:39.could talk about the situation in Libya, Afghanistan. There are

:29:39. > :29:43.foreign themes he hasn't looked at recently. He could go back on the

:29:43. > :29:48.growth front. Debt. This is the continuing theme, the economy.

:29:48. > :29:50.know the Autumn Statement is going to be 59 December. And there is

:29:50. > :29:55.obviously this question this morning about whether the

:29:55. > :30:00.Government is going to meet its target for reducing debt by the end

:30:00. > :30:04.of the Parliament. He might wait until he gets the latest figures,

:30:04. > :30:08.which are out soon. This is the kind of day when you choose

:30:08. > :30:12.something left of field. Maybe something on health. Maybe

:30:12. > :30:18.something on the universal credit, another thing that Labour have been

:30:18. > :30:23.pushing hard on this week. I would expect him to go in an unexpected

:30:23. > :30:28.condition. The usual hammer and tongs would be tricky, if you know

:30:28. > :30:33.that in just 20 minutes you are going to have to be statesman like

:30:33. > :30:43.and talk about a serious issue. this issue of spending is, you give

:30:43. > :31:05.

:31:05. > :31:13.this regional development fund �1.5 These were courageous man. We are

:31:13. > :31:21.for ever indebted to them. I'm sure the renaming of the clock tower

:31:22. > :31:26.today, following the campaign led by my friend, as the Elizabeth

:31:26. > :31:35.Tower. This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and

:31:35. > :31:41.others. I will have further such meetings in this House today. I,

:31:41. > :31:51.too, pay tribute to our troops who have died. It is far braver people

:31:51. > :31:52.

:31:52. > :31:57.than we who were have died. The statistics out today show that the

:31:57. > :32:01.number of female redundancies is rising over the last few months. In

:32:01. > :32:05.addition, we now have nine government departments, with not a

:32:05. > :32:15.single woman minister. I know the Prime Minister likes to think of

:32:15. > :32:19.

:32:19. > :32:24.himself as much... -- as butch... He told us so last week in this

:32:24. > :32:29.very House. But what has the Prime Minister got against women? First

:32:29. > :32:32.of all, what I would say to the Honourable Gentleman is that the

:32:32. > :32:37.unemployment figures today have a number of very encouraging figures

:32:37. > :32:44.in them, including the fact that women's employment, the number of

:32:44. > :32:48.women in employment is actually up by 128,000 this quarter, which is

:32:48. > :32:52.up to 150,000 compared with the time of the last election. I think

:32:52. > :32:56.that is encouraging. Obviously, the way that we have treated public

:32:56. > :33:00.sector pay, and the public sector pay freeze, protecting low-paid

:33:00. > :33:05.people especially, that has actually helped women. But do we

:33:05. > :33:09.need to do more to help women to work? Yes. Do we need to do more to

:33:09. > :33:16.help with childcare? Yes. Do we need to encourage more women into

:33:16. > :33:25.politics? Yes to that as well. Local businesses and the

:33:25. > :33:30.industrious people in my constituency, South Ribble, are

:33:30. > :33:35.doing their bit in helping the economy to recover. Will the Prime

:33:35. > :33:39.Minister join me in condemning the irresponsible threats of Co

:33:39. > :33:44.ordinated strike action by the trade unions, which do nothing but

:33:44. > :33:48.undermine the efforts of my constituents? My Honourable Friend

:33:48. > :33:53.is absolutely right to speak up for her constituents, who work hard and

:33:53. > :33:57.do the right thing. Today's figures show an extra one million private

:33:57. > :34:02.sector jobs since the election, which shows our economy is

:34:02. > :34:08.rebalancing. She is right to say that the trade unions provide a

:34:08. > :34:12.threat to our economy. The party opposite has received �12 million

:34:12. > :34:16.since the Honourable Member became leader of the party from the three

:34:16. > :34:21.unions who are now threatening a general strike. I have to say to

:34:21. > :34:24.him, they have threatened a strike to stop our fuel supplies, to

:34:24. > :34:29.disrupt the Olympics, now, they threatened a strike to make the

:34:29. > :34:39.economy. When he stands up, I think it is time for him to say he will

:34:39. > :34:40.

:34:40. > :34:49.take no more money from the unions while they are making these threats.

:34:49. > :34:55.Mr Speaker, can I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to the

:34:55. > :35:00.two servicemen. Both of them showed the utmost courage and bravery, and

:35:00. > :35:04.our thoughts are with their family and friends. Can I also join him in

:35:04. > :35:08.celebrating today the renaming of the clock tower as the Elizabeth

:35:08. > :35:13.Tower. It was done with all-party support. It is a fitting tribute to

:35:13. > :35:18.the service that Her Majesty the Queen has shown to this country. Mr

:35:18. > :35:21.Speaker, the fall in unemployment today is welcome. But all of us

:35:22. > :35:27.will be concerned that the number of people out of work for more than

:35:27. > :35:31.a year stands at 904,000. That is its highest level for 17 years.

:35:31. > :35:34.Does he agree with me that this is a particularly troubling statistic,

:35:35. > :35:39.because the longer someone is out of work, the harder it is for them

:35:39. > :35:43.to get back into it, and the more damage is done to them, their

:35:43. > :35:47.families and to the economy? agree with him about the dangers

:35:47. > :35:51.and the threat of long-term unemployment. It is what to put in

:35:51. > :35:59.front of the House the full figures today. Unemployment is down by

:35:59. > :36:04.7,000, employment is up by 236,000 over the quarter. It is significant,

:36:04. > :36:09.because it is a real time, live figure, the claimant count, which

:36:09. > :36:12.was down 15,000. And as I have just said, when you look at the private

:36:12. > :36:17.sector jobs number, which is vital when we think we need to rebalance

:36:17. > :36:21.the economy, there are more than one million net new private sector

:36:21. > :36:26.jobs over the last two years. The long term unemployment figure is

:36:26. > :36:30.disturbing, that is what the work programme is designed to deal with.

:36:30. > :36:38.We got that programme up and running within a year. It has

:36:38. > :36:42.already helped 690,000 people. The key part of it part -- Two part of

:36:42. > :36:51.it is that we paid training providers more to help the long-

:36:51. > :36:53.term unemployed into work. He talks about the work programme, but not

:36:53. > :36:59.only is long term unemployment at its highest level for nearly two

:36:59. > :37:02.decades, but over the past 12 months, we have seen a 247%

:37:02. > :37:08.increase in the number of young people on the dole for more than a

:37:08. > :37:11.year. That is happening throughout the country. Mr Speaker, is this

:37:11. > :37:16.not the clearest evidence so far that his work programme just is not

:37:16. > :37:21.working? I do not accept that. On the youth unemployment picture, it

:37:21. > :37:25.is disappointing that youth unemployment is up 7,000 over the

:37:25. > :37:30.quarter. But the youth unemployment figures include young people in

:37:30. > :37:34.full-time education. If you look at the picture of the number of -- of

:37:34. > :37:39.the number of young people actually in work, that figure is actually up.

:37:40. > :37:44.In terms of the youth contract itself, that is now up and running.

:37:44. > :37:48.65,000 young people have taken part in work experience programmes,

:37:48. > :37:53.which were criticised by some people sitting opposite and some

:37:53. > :37:58.trade unions. But actually, within 21 weeks, half of them have been

:37:58. > :38:02.taken off the unemployment register, by finding proper work. I think

:38:02. > :38:07.that is very encouraging, it is about 20 times more cost-effective

:38:07. > :38:10.than the Future Jobs Fund, which it replaced. I have to say, to all of

:38:10. > :38:16.the young people looking for work around the country, that sounds

:38:16. > :38:21.like a rather complacent answer. The reality is that because of his

:38:21. > :38:28.failure on long-term unemployment, borrowing - the key test he set

:38:28. > :38:30.himself - is up 25% in the first four months of this year. He is

:38:31. > :38:40.borrowing �9.3 billion more in the first four months of this year than

:38:41. > :38:46.

:38:46. > :38:51.last year. That's �1.6 million in this up mack of PMQs. And we gather

:38:51. > :38:55.today that the Government may miss the overriding economic test which

:38:55. > :39:00.he said himself, which is that debt will be falling at the time of the

:39:00. > :39:04.next election. Isn't the fact that he is failing the very test he set

:39:04. > :39:07.himself the surest sign yet that his plans are just not working?

:39:07. > :39:11.First of all, there is absolutely no complacency in this government

:39:11. > :39:14.about the issue of youth employment or long term unemployment. That is

:39:14. > :39:19.why we're putting so much energy into the apprenticeship programme.

:39:19. > :39:23.We have seen 457,000 apprenticeships starting in the

:39:23. > :39:27.last year, a record figure, and something we want to build on in

:39:27. > :39:31.the years ahead, with �1.5 billion invested. He raises the issue of

:39:31. > :39:35.borrowing. In the last two years, this government has cut the deficit

:39:35. > :39:40.by a quarter. If he is concerned about borrowing, why does he have

:39:40. > :39:43.plans to put it up? There are many ways you can reduce borrowing. The

:39:43. > :39:49.one way you cannot reduce borrowing is to increase spending and

:39:49. > :39:53.increased borrowing, which is what he tells us to do! Mr Speaker, the

:39:53. > :39:58.reality that this Prime Minister cannot get away from is that for

:39:58. > :40:08.2.5 years, borrowing is rising on his watch. That is the reality,

:40:08. > :40:09.

:40:09. > :40:14.borrowing is up. It is up 25%. �9.3 billion in the first four months of

:40:14. > :40:17.this year. When he gets up to reply, maybe he can tell us whether the

:40:17. > :40:23.reports this morning that the Government is not going to beat it

:40:23. > :40:29.-- its target that debt will be falling by the end of this

:40:29. > :40:33.Parliament is correct? The it is this government which has cut the

:40:33. > :40:37.deficit we inherited by a quarter. That's what we have done in two

:40:37. > :40:41.years. Normally, Mr Speaker, at this stage in the proceedings, I

:40:41. > :40:45.say that the party opposite has not got any plans. But on this occasion,

:40:45. > :40:51.I can reassure the House, they have got some plans. They have got a new

:40:51. > :40:56.plan, it is called pre-distribution. I think what that means is that you

:40:56. > :41:06.spend the money before you actually get it. I think you will find that

:41:06. > :41:08.

:41:08. > :41:12.is why we are in the mess we are in right now. Mr Speaker, I will tell

:41:12. > :41:19.him what it is about - it is an economy which does not just work

:41:19. > :41:22.for a few at the top, but works for everybody. And it is not about a

:41:22. > :41:28.Prime Minister who cut taxes for millionaires while raising taxes

:41:28. > :41:33.for everyone else. And perhaps when he gets up to reply, he can answer

:41:33. > :41:38.the question which he so far has not answered - is he going to be a

:41:38. > :41:45.beneficiary of the 50p tax cut? This is an economy which has

:41:45. > :41:49.generated one million new private sector jobs. I know he does not

:41:49. > :41:56.want to talk about pre-Distribution, but I have done a little work, Mr

:41:56. > :42:02.Speaker. I can tell him about his new guru. His new guru is called, I

:42:02. > :42:08.am not making this up, the man who invented free distribution is

:42:08. > :42:14.called, I am not making this up... Order! Members on both sides need

:42:14. > :42:24.to calm down. I am surprised they do not want to hear from their new

:42:24. > :42:24.

:42:24. > :42:29.guru. He is called Mr J Hacker. And his recommendation is that we spend

:42:29. > :42:33.an extra �200 billion, borrow an extra �200 billion, in this

:42:33. > :42:43.Parliament. I have discovered his new book, which is published by

:42:43. > :42:43.

:42:43. > :42:48.Princeton University Press, and it is called, The Road To Nowhere. He

:42:48. > :42:58.does not need to read it. He is there already. That may complement

:42:58. > :43:01.

:43:01. > :43:08.the Prime Minister on such a butch answer. And what a week it has been

:43:08. > :43:12.for Mr Butch. He has briefed against the former Transport

:43:12. > :43:15.Secretary. He was knocking back the claret whilst asserting the Welsh

:43:15. > :43:21.secretary. And when it came to the environment secretary, she was

:43:21. > :43:25.sacked because she was too old, and replaced by a man who was older.

:43:25. > :43:29.The reality is this - the Prime Minister is going to have to answer

:43:29. > :43:34.between now and April, and he did not answer the question, as to

:43:34. > :43:38.whether he is going to get that top rate tax cut, a tax-cut for

:43:38. > :43:42.millionaires by millionaires. The reality is this - their plan is

:43:42. > :43:48.fading, they stand up for the wrong people. Plan A is not working, he

:43:48. > :43:52.should change course. On a day when we hear that this

:43:52. > :43:56.economy has created one million net new private sector jobs, all we

:43:56. > :43:59.have learnt from the Labour Party is that they have learnt nothing.

:43:59. > :44:02.They are still committed to the spending, the borrowing and the

:44:02. > :44:09.debt that got us into this mess in the first place. That's the truth

:44:09. > :44:19.and they cannot hide it from the British public.

:44:19. > :44:25.This year is the tenth anniversary of breast cancer campaign's Wear It

:44:25. > :44:30.Pink Day. But there is still much more to be done, including early

:44:30. > :44:34.identification of this disease, at all ages. Will the Prime Minister

:44:34. > :44:44.meet with the chairs of the parliamentary groups and the

:44:44. > :44:45.

:44:45. > :44:49.leading charities for further We've made big leaps forward in

:44:50. > :44:53.terms of advancing the action on breast cancer. There is still more

:44:53. > :44:58.to be done. I payen tribute to the thousands up and down our country

:44:58. > :45:02.who not only wear those ribbons but take part in so much campaigns, so

:45:02. > :45:11.much fundraising and awareness raising. I would be delighted to

:45:11. > :45:16.have her at this meeting. Rochdale is proud of its link with the Royal

:45:16. > :45:22.Regiment of Fusiliers. The decision to act the Battalion was taken by

:45:22. > :45:26.Ministers, not the professional leadership of the Army. Morale at

:45:26. > :45:33.an all-time low in the armed forces why won't the Prime Minister

:45:33. > :45:43.reconsider? These are very difficult decision as we move

:45:43. > :45:45.

:45:45. > :45:48.How best to structure that Army to maintain as many cap badges and

:45:48. > :45:52.historic regiments as possible in all the United Kingdom. We defend

:45:52. > :45:57.those decisions but if people want to come forward with alternatives

:45:57. > :46:02.we will always listen to them. Would the Prime Minister agree with

:46:02. > :46:07.me that the improvement in the balance of trade figures are

:46:07. > :46:10.welcome and demonstrate we can balance our economy by expanding

:46:10. > :46:16.our trade with the rest of the world as well as Europe. The trade

:46:16. > :46:21.figures out yesterday showed the biggest cash decline in the trade

:46:21. > :46:24.deficit for 20 years. As I have said many times, we do face great

:46:24. > :46:27.economic difficulties in this country and across Europe. But we

:46:27. > :46:30.are seeing a rebalancing of the economy, a growth in terms of

:46:30. > :46:35.private sector employment that I've talked about. Manufacturing now

:46:35. > :46:40.accounting for a growing share of the economy rather than a shrinking

:46:40. > :46:45.share. A big increase in exports, particularly to the fastest growing

:46:45. > :46:50.parts of world. We need more of that alongside small business

:46:50. > :46:56.creation and entrepreneurs in order to rebalance our economy and make

:46:56. > :47:01.it stronger for the future. Before the election, the Prime Minister

:47:01. > :47:05.promised a moratorium on hospital closures. Last year he told me

:47:05. > :47:11.Ealing Hospital would not close without the support of doctors and

:47:11. > :47:16.patients. So why are the doctors and patients having to march on

:47:16. > :47:19.Saturday to keep our hospitals open? Let me say again to the

:47:19. > :47:22.honourable gentleman, who quite rightly raises this issue, there

:47:22. > :47:28.are no plans to close Ealing Hospital. I understand the trust is

:47:28. > :47:32.planning a capital programme of �4 billion for 2012-13, which includes

:47:32. > :47:39.refurbishing some wards. It proposes a merger with north-west

:47:39. > :47:42.London hospitals is a matter for the trusts them. It is clear that

:47:42. > :47:47.reconfiguration of frontline services is a matter for the NHS.

:47:47. > :47:53.As he knows, any proposed changes to clinical services has to be

:47:53. > :47:56.subject to the foretests of support from GP commissioners, strengthened

:47:56. > :48:01.public engagement, clarity on the clinical evidence base and support

:48:01. > :48:11.for patient choice. He is right to raise this issue but this is how it

:48:11. > :48:12.

:48:12. > :48:18.should be approached. THE SPEAKER: Nick Gibb. CHEERING

:48:18. > :48:24.Thank you Mr Speaker. My constituent has crumbling vertebra

:48:24. > :48:29.and is in constant pain and can only walk short distances. She is

:48:29. > :48:33.87. She applied for the renewal of her Blue Badge but like many others

:48:33. > :48:36.was turned down due to the way the new national Blue Badge improvement

:48:36. > :48:40.service is implemented locally will. The Prime Minister intervene to

:48:40. > :48:45.ensure that the scheme is being implemented fairly and

:48:46. > :48:48.appropriately across the country? will look very carefully at the

:48:48. > :48:52.case that my right honourable friend mentions, because I think it

:48:52. > :48:57.is important that this reform is carried out properly. I think all

:48:57. > :49:02.of us as constituency MPs get two sorts of complaints. Sometimes from

:49:02. > :49:09.people who see people have the Blue Badge who don't merit it, but also

:49:09. > :49:12.those who want the Blue Badge, do deserve it and can't get it. Can I

:49:12. > :49:15.pay tribute to my right honourable friend for his long work on

:49:15. > :49:18.educational standards and believing in true rigour in schools. He seen

:49:18. > :49:27.many of his ideas mutt into practice and that's what we come

:49:27. > :49:30.into politics to achieve. The Adam we areity affair should

:49:30. > :49:35.have taught important lessons to Ministers about becoming too close

:49:35. > :49:40.to their outside advisers. Now it appears his climate change Minister

:49:40. > :49:45.may be making similar mistakes. Given media reports today, does the

:49:45. > :49:49.Prime Minister have the same complete confidence in his climate

:49:49. > :49:53.change Minister as he had in his former Defence Secretary?

:49:53. > :49:59.climate change Minister is doing an excellent job. I want to put that

:49:59. > :50:02.on the record. I've consulted with Cabinet Secretary over this issue.

:50:02. > :50:04.The Permanent Secretary at the Department of Energy and Climate

:50:04. > :50:09.Change has commoned this issue. The Cabinet Secretary has examined it

:50:09. > :50:13.too and I don't see a need for a further inquiry on that basis. The

:50:13. > :50:23.key point I would make is that the individual in question was hired by

:50:23. > :50:37.

:50:37. > :50:42.civil servants after a properly run Mr Speaker, this month marks the

:50:42. > :50:45.40th anniversary of the expulsion of Asians from Uganda by Idi Amin.

:50:45. > :50:50.They came to this country with nothing but the clothes on their

:50:50. > :50:53.backs. But they picked themselves up and soon integrated they'll into

:50:53. > :50:59.the fabric of Britain. Will my right honourable friend the Prime

:50:59. > :51:03.Minister join me in commending this community and also the Conservative

:51:03. > :51:06.Government of the time, which had the courageous decision to let them

:51:06. > :51:11.in, notwithstanding the enormous amount of opposition both in the

:51:11. > :51:15.House and in the country at large? I think my honourable friend is

:51:15. > :51:18.absolutely right to raise this. The Asian who is have come from Kenya

:51:18. > :51:22.and Uganda have made an extraordinary contribution to this

:51:22. > :51:28.country. It was an absolutely right decision to welcome them here as

:51:28. > :51:33.happened in the 1970s, and those that opposed it I believe were

:51:33. > :51:37.profoundly wrong. I would say to him, who is from that background,

:51:37. > :51:41.what an incredible achievement for someone from that background to get

:51:41. > :51:44.within a generation to come to Parliament and make such a

:51:44. > :51:48.distinguished contribution. Speaker, last week's reshuffle was

:51:48. > :51:55.clearly a painful experience for many, but can the Prime Minister

:51:55. > :52:00.advise us why he recommended knighthoods for five of his

:52:00. > :52:04.redundant male Ministers but there was no nothing like a Dame...

:52:04. > :52:08.actually take the view that when people come into public life and

:52:08. > :52:14.work hard in opposition and in Government and make a contribution,

:52:14. > :52:17.that is something that we should recognise. It shouldn't only be

:52:18. > :52:23.Permanent Secretarys that receive these honours. We should also be

:52:23. > :52:28.prepared to honour Ministers should have worked hard and served their

:52:28. > :52:34.country as well. Our armed forces... THE SPEAKER: Order! The honourable

:52:34. > :52:39.member must be hear. Our armed forces are always willing

:52:39. > :52:43.to do what we ask of them, without complaint, but there'll be a

:52:43. > :52:47.detrimental impact on individuals' training, deployment opportunities

:52:47. > :52:51.and R&R if we ask them to keep this country going in the face of

:52:51. > :52:55.strikes. Isn't this another reason why those unions should think

:52:55. > :52:58.again? I think my honourable friend makes an extremely good point. I do

:52:58. > :53:02.hope that these trade unions who are meeting and discussing this

:53:02. > :53:08.appalling idea of a general strike think again and think of the go

:53:08. > :53:12.good of our economy rather than their selfish interests. She makes

:53:12. > :53:16.an important point about our armed forces. I want to put on record

:53:16. > :53:20.again what a fantastic job they did with the Olympics and Paralympics,

:53:20. > :53:26.stepping up to the plate. From everything I saw from the Olympic

:53:26. > :53:30.Games our armed services were pleased to play that role. There

:53:30. > :53:37.are times we can call on them and they'll be pleased to serve. Many

:53:37. > :53:42.of us are shocked and sad and that child poverty in the UK is so

:53:42. > :53:46.severe and widespread that Save The Children have felt it necessary to

:53:46. > :53:49.launch their first ever appeal for British children. Members opposite

:53:49. > :53:52.attacked Save The Children and even accused them of publicity seeking

:53:52. > :53:57.will. The Prime Minister take this opportunity to distance himself

:53:57. > :54:00.from those comments, and support the report which led to this

:54:00. > :54:04.appeal? I'm a strong supporter of Save The Children. They do an

:54:04. > :54:08.excellent job. Look, as long as we recognise that the sort of poverty

:54:08. > :54:15.that we tragically still have in Britain is very different from the

:54:15. > :54:19.poverty of people surviving on $1 a day in sub-Saharan Africa, as long

:54:19. > :54:26.as we respect the differences between those types of poverty it

:54:26. > :54:30.is right that GGOs and charity groups campaign in TUC as well as

:54:30. > :54:33.overseas. In a Commons debate last year on rural broadband I

:54:33. > :54:38.highlighted how poor the service is in pend approximately, including in

:54:38. > :54:42.the village of New Church, which might be unique in the country for

:54:42. > :54:52.having particularly poor service when it rains. Does the Prime

:54:52. > :54:53.

:54:53. > :54:57.Minister share my joy at plans to cut the red tape which is holding

:54:57. > :55:00.back fast broadband? I join my honourable friend in his campaign

:55:00. > :55:03.to make sure all our communities have access to from fast broadband.

:55:03. > :55:07.It is not just an issue of money, and this Government is putting the

:55:07. > :55:10.money in. There are planning issues, because some councils have held up

:55:10. > :55:14.giving permission to the necessary cabinets and other things which

:55:14. > :55:16.have to be put at place at street and village level. That's why our

:55:16. > :55:23.planning reforms announced by my right honourable friend the

:55:23. > :55:28.Communities Secretary are going to sweep away that rocks I -- sweep

:55:28. > :55:31.away that bureaucracy. Despite the Prime Minister's Valient efforts,

:55:31. > :55:35.does he not realise that denying thousands of our disabled

:55:35. > :55:42.constituents adequate levels of benefit is merely underlining the

:55:42. > :55:46.fact the Tories really are the nasty party? I simply don't accept,

:55:46. > :55:49.even the premise of the right honourable gentleman's question. We

:55:49. > :55:55.are not cutting the money that's going into disability benefits..

:55:55. > :55:59.The question is is how best to reform those disability benefits so

:55:59. > :56:04.disabled people get access to the benefits that they require. Anyone

:56:04. > :56:08.who has looked at disability living allowance or has had to fill in

:56:08. > :56:12.those forms knows it needs reform. The reform has been led by many

:56:12. > :56:16.disability groups who want to see something much more related to

:56:16. > :56:19.people's disability and faster to access as well. Will my right

:56:19. > :56:26.honourable friend join me in celebrating a major inward

:56:26. > :56:31.investment by the Chinese firm Huawei, who are investing �1.3

:56:31. > :56:41.billion over five years to create 700 jobs in the UK and encourage

:56:41. > :56:41.

:56:41. > :56:45.them to come to Wycombe? I welcome the investment by Huawei. I met the

:56:45. > :56:50.chairman yesterday in Downing Street. I'm afraid to say some of

:56:50. > :56:52.the jobs from going to be created I very much hope in Banbury, but with

:56:52. > :56:56.investment of this scale I'm sure there'll be opportunities around

:56:56. > :57:00.the rest of the country. They are coming here I believe not for the

:57:00. > :57:03.weather but because we've got highly trained engineers, excellent

:57:03. > :57:11.universities, a leading floel the telecoms and mobile industries and

:57:11. > :57:17.they think this is a Government that's open for business. Can I ask

:57:17. > :57:21.the Prime Minister to explain why in the previous Parliament members

:57:21. > :57:27.of either House who were shown to have deliberately abused the

:57:27. > :57:31.expenses system were quite rightly forced to face the full rigour of

:57:31. > :57:35.the law, but why is it in this Parliament the same proven

:57:35. > :57:43.dishonesty flults the restoration of ministerial office and a seat at

:57:43. > :57:47.the Cabinet table? I think if the honourable gentleman is referring

:57:47. > :57:50.to my right honourable friend the Minister who is attending Cabinet,

:57:50. > :57:55.and is a Minister of State in the Department for Education, he made

:57:55. > :57:59.very clear the mistakes he made in terms of the expenses system. He

:57:59. > :58:09.resigned from the Government. Speaker order! The Prime Minister's

:58:09. > :58:12.

:58:12. > :58:15.As I have said in the past, I do think it is right to give someone a

:58:15. > :58:20.second chance. Does my right honourable friend agree with the

:58:20. > :58:23.managing director of euro craft in Dudley who contacted me about the

:58:23. > :58:28.Government's plans to sweep away unnecessary health and safety red

:58:28. > :58:35.tape, that at least years of regulation are being replaced bay

:58:35. > :58:41.single concept called common sense. Isn't it common sense to remove the

:58:41. > :58:45.head an ache for low listen risk businesses and won't this

:58:45. > :58:50.deregulation help businesses to grow? We've got 3,000 regulations

:58:50. > :58:53.in our sights that we believe can be radically scaled down or reduced.

:58:53. > :58:58.We've made good progress already. We believe there is more we can do

:58:58. > :59:01.to exempt particularly small firms from regulation. I think the new

:59:01. > :59:04.Minister in the business department will be pressing ahead with the

:59:04. > :59:10.full support of the Secretary of State down this very important

:59:10. > :59:15.agenda. Four years ago the Prime Minister

:59:15. > :59:21.gave the support to High Speed 2 as provide an alternative for short-

:59:21. > :59:27.haul flights and therefore a third runway at Heathrow. As he is

:59:27. > :59:33.dithering over Heathrow, is he dirting over H is 2? No, I fully

:59:33. > :59:37.support HS2 and I believe it is something that needs to go ahead

:59:37. > :59:40.for the benefit of our country. Following the reshuffle there's

:59:40. > :59:47.been speculation in the press that some new appointments indicate a

:59:47. > :59:53.shift away from our green agenda. Would my right honourable friend

:59:53. > :59:56.like to take this opportunity to Scottish these scurrilous

:59:56. > :00:03.allegations and reaffirm our commitment to being the greenest

:00:03. > :00:07.Government ever? Can I first of all congratulate the

:00:07. > :00:10.honourable lady on her new role The Treasury she has every ability to

:00:11. > :00:15.make sure this Government delivers on its green commitment. What I

:00:15. > :00:21.would say to her is that this Government that has set up a Green

:00:21. > :00:27.Investment Bank, with �3 billion to spend. It is this Government that's

:00:27. > :00:35.committed 1 billion to car ban capture and storage. We have the

:00:35. > :00:40.first incentive scheme for renewable heat. The mass roll-out

:00:40. > :00:45.of smart metres and we are the first Government to introduce a

:00:45. > :00:50.carbon price. Thank you Mr Speaker. In 1993 the chairman of the

:00:50. > :00:55.Conservative Party Norman Fowler said if the �365,000 given to the

:00:55. > :00:58.Tories by Asil Nadir was stolen, that money will be returned now

:00:58. > :01:01.that Asil Nadir has been convicted of theft does the Prime Minister

:01:01. > :01:05.agree with his party's former treasurer that it is tainted money,

:01:05. > :01:10.it shames the Conservatives, they have a moral duty to give it back?

:01:10. > :01:20.When is the Prime Minister going to go in his pocket and get the

:01:20. > :01:22.

:01:22. > :01:27.What I would say to the Right Honourable Gentleman is, what about

:01:27. > :01:29.that �12 million that his party has taken from the trade unions, who is

:01:29. > :01:39.threatening to bring the country to threatening to bring the country to

:01:39. > :01:39.

:01:39. > :01:45.its knees?! Order. This government does indeed

:01:45. > :01:49.aspire to be the greenest government ever. With that in mind,

:01:49. > :01:59.can the Prime Minister assure me that before any decision is taken

:01:59. > :02:02.

:02:02. > :02:06.to extract shale gas from Fylde, a full investigation and assessment

:02:06. > :02:09.will be undertaken to ensure that the environment is protected?

:02:09. > :02:13.Studies have been done regarding the tremors which we had in

:02:13. > :02:18.Blackpool last year. A full, independent review has been carried

:02:18. > :02:23.out. But I can assure him that any future shale gas production would

:02:23. > :02:26.have to meet stringent environmental standards. It would

:02:26. > :02:36.have to follow deep consultation with local communities, and it

:02:36. > :03:12.

:03:12. > :03:16.would have to fit within overall This came from one viewer - the

:03:16. > :03:20.Prime Minister is in a funny land, if he thinks there are more jobs

:03:20. > :03:24.now than when he came to office. I am unemployed, and on the much

:03:24. > :03:29.heralded work programme. The only jobs are part-time or temporary. My

:03:29. > :03:33.employment plan is a joke. This one says, when his David Cameron going

:03:33. > :03:38.to answer questions, instead of passing off lists and spin in his

:03:38. > :03:44.party's favour? But this one says, Ed Miliband is once again wrong-

:03:44. > :03:49.headed. Debt would have been far worse had Labour won in 2010, we

:03:49. > :03:59.would have had to have borrowed more. David Cameron is right,

:03:59. > :04:03.

:04:03. > :04:09.Labour's pre- distribution is nonsense. This one says, is butch

:04:09. > :04:15.the only retort Miliband can come up with? And this one says, why

:04:15. > :04:20.didn't David Cameron answer the question about the top rate tax?

:04:20. > :04:24.David Willetts, there is no growth in the economy, there has not been

:04:24. > :04:30.for three quarters. Real living standards are still falling. And

:04:30. > :04:34.once again, the deficit is rising - is there anything left of Plan A?

:04:34. > :04:39.There is an absolute commitment to bring down government borrowing,

:04:39. > :04:45.which we are delivering. We are 25% of the way through that. You are

:04:45. > :04:50.not, that is not correct. You cut the deficit by 25%, compared to the

:04:50. > :04:53.previous year last year. The deficit is now rising. The first

:04:53. > :04:57.four months of this year, you borrowed more than you did in the

:04:57. > :05:03.first four months of last year - the deficit is rising again. Let's

:05:03. > :05:07.see what the new figures are in the Autumn Statement. But I think the

:05:07. > :05:12.challenge of course is to get growth at a time when the whole

:05:12. > :05:16.world economy is suffering. Today, you had both the overall statistics,

:05:16. > :05:21.the one million new jobs, and you also had a great example of how we

:05:21. > :05:24.can attract inward investment with the massive �1 million investment

:05:24. > :05:28.we have just secured. We are rolling up our sleeves to do

:05:28. > :05:33.everything to keep the economy growing, in a hostile economic

:05:33. > :05:36.environment. But part of Plan a, part of the reason why we have to

:05:36. > :05:41.go through all of this pain, was that come the next election, you

:05:41. > :05:47.could begin to see not the deficit, which would already have been cut,

:05:47. > :05:55.but actual total debt begin to fall. You had projected that debt would a

:05:55. > :05:59.fall between the financial year ending 2015 April and 2016 April,

:05:59. > :06:03.debt would be falling as a percentage of GDP. All the latest

:06:03. > :06:07.forecasts are that that is not going to happen, and that was the

:06:07. > :06:11.fundamental part of Plan A. fundamental part of plan a was to

:06:11. > :06:14.make sure that we have low interest rates and did not get into the kind

:06:14. > :06:22.of financial crisis that we have seen across the eurozone. When we

:06:22. > :06:27.were elected, our interest rates were the same as Spain's. Now, our

:06:27. > :06:31.interest rates are down below 2%, compared with 6% in Spain. This

:06:32. > :06:38.affects families and businesses. We will be projecting government

:06:38. > :06:43.borrowing and debt again in the Autumn Statement. Let's wait for

:06:43. > :06:46.the Autumn Statement. You say that Plan A is the reason why interest

:06:46. > :06:52.rates are so low - I would suggest to you that the real reason has

:06:52. > :06:56.been because of the Bank of England and quantitative easing. 36% of all

:06:56. > :07:01.the debt issued by this country is now sitting on the balance sheet of

:07:01. > :07:07.the Bank of England. The Bank of England's credit card has bought

:07:07. > :07:10.the Government's credit card, is that not right? Quantitative easing,

:07:10. > :07:14.we can have an active monetary policy because at the same time,

:07:14. > :07:17.the markets know that we have got a grip on the public finances. They

:07:17. > :07:20.cannot do quantitative easing effectively in Spain or Italy,

:07:20. > :07:24.because people do not have confidence that the government

:07:24. > :07:30.there has got a grip on the finances. You are buying your own

:07:30. > :07:34.debt. The Government is responsible for the Bank of England's balance

:07:34. > :07:37.sheet. At the end of the day, Her Majesty's Treasury stands behind

:07:38. > :07:44.the balance sheet of the Bank of England, and you have placed 36% of

:07:44. > :07:48.total debt, your debt, and you are then responsible for that balance

:07:48. > :07:54.sheet. It is like me saying, here is my Mastercard, I have got �5,000

:07:54. > :07:58.on it. What I will do is, I will transfer it to my American Express.

:07:58. > :08:01.It is absolutely the right thing, having the Monetary Policy which is

:08:01. > :08:05.active and energetic, it is the right thing to do in these

:08:05. > :08:08.exceptional circumstances. But one reason why we can have that active

:08:08. > :08:15.military policy is that people can have confidence in what we're doing

:08:15. > :08:18.in the public finances. The two things go together. Yes, absolutely,

:08:18. > :08:22.when the economy is facing these challenges, getting the money out

:08:22. > :08:27.into the economy, holding down interest rates. And the danger for

:08:27. > :08:31.Labour's position is that you do not know what the tipping point is.

:08:31. > :08:36.Your policy is to expand the deficit and to get a bit more of a

:08:36. > :08:43.Keynesian stimulus, but you have no idea how much you can do before

:08:44. > :08:50.interest rates start to soar. In these circumstances, the tipping

:08:50. > :08:54.point, it is not a great nation, rates could suddenly shoot up.

:08:54. > :08:57.we do know is that confidence is haemorrhaging in the fundamental

:08:57. > :08:59.judgment which was made at the beginning of this Parliament By

:08:59. > :09:05.George Osborne. You cannot deal with the deficit if there is no

:09:05. > :09:08.growth in the economy. You're right, there is a judgment between taking

:09:08. > :09:11.demand out of the economy, whilst sustaining growth. I think it was

:09:11. > :09:14.the one decision adopted by the Government at the beginning of the

:09:14. > :09:18.parliament effectively to talk down the prospects for the British

:09:18. > :09:23.economy, which, at the time, was growing, and unemployment was

:09:23. > :09:28.falling, and to draw immediate comparisons with Spain, Greece and

:09:28. > :09:31.Italy. We now have only two European economies, Italy and the

:09:31. > :09:34.United Kingdom, who have suffered a double-dip recession. We can be

:09:34. > :09:39.certain that the approach of the Government, which has been the

:09:39. > :09:43.centrepiece of the strategy, is failing, and has failed. That

:09:43. > :09:47.requires, I believe, the Government to take a different approach, and

:09:47. > :09:51.it may be, as we have seen in The Guardian this morning, that the

:09:51. > :09:54.expectation of reaching -- breaching the fiscal mandate will

:09:54. > :09:59.cause them to think again. But at the moment, an emblem it is too

:09:59. > :10:02.high, there is no growth, and as you have said, �9 billion more

:10:02. > :10:08.borrowing in the first quarter of this year than last year. That is

:10:08. > :10:12.not a plan which is working. James, is their increasing concern in

:10:12. > :10:15.government circles about the economic strategy? This economic

:10:15. > :10:20.strategy was meant to have delivered some results by now.

:10:21. > :10:27.Growth was meant to have returned. And by 2014, we were meant to be

:10:27. > :10:33.growing, the pain would be over, and we're off to the races in the

:10:33. > :10:38.2015 election. That whole electoral-economic strategy is gone.

:10:38. > :10:42.Absolutely, and I think the Government recognises that, which

:10:42. > :10:45.is why the entire agenda now is growth, growth, growth. They know

:10:46. > :10:49.that more has to be done. The problem is, whenever you speak to

:10:49. > :10:53.somebody in government, and you say, you are still banking on some

:10:53. > :10:56.growth returning at some point, hoping that the third quarter

:10:56. > :10:59.figures will be more positive, they always say to you, once the GDP

:10:59. > :11:06.figures change, the political figures will change, too.

:11:06. > :11:09.Everything will be sorted out. they are running out of time.

:11:09. > :11:13.Whenever I ask ministers, what is it which is going to turn the

:11:13. > :11:17.corner, what is actually going to change? I have to say, it is not a

:11:17. > :11:21.question to which you get a satisfactory answer. This is why we

:11:21. > :11:26.saw in PMQs, the Prime Minister was asked twice, is happily going to

:11:26. > :11:30.meet its debt target? And twice he failed to answer that question. I

:11:30. > :11:36.think his failure to one so that question, and to reaffirm it as the

:11:36. > :11:39.Government's target, will allow that to carry on running. Douglas

:11:39. > :11:48.Alexander, you were out at the Democratic convention in North

:11:48. > :11:51.Carolina, and you wrote an article with David Miliband, about the

:11:51. > :11:56.lessons to be learned from Barack Obama and the Democrats. It was

:11:56. > :12:02.quite a long article, but I did plough through it. I would not say

:12:02. > :12:07.800 words is particularly long. seem a lot more than that! Surely

:12:07. > :12:11.you could have summed it up - the real lesson from the Democrats is

:12:11. > :12:16.the importance of a charismatic leader. I don't think so. There

:12:16. > :12:19.were many lessons, as I tried to draw out in the article. But one of

:12:19. > :12:23.the corps troops between British and American politics is that the

:12:23. > :12:27.economy is front and centre, right now. But in Britain, we have an

:12:27. > :12:31.economy which is contracting, the Americans have got an economy which

:12:31. > :12:35.is growing. That is the central challenge, which, as well as other

:12:35. > :12:41.lessons, will continue to be the centrepiece of our conversation

:12:41. > :12:44.which is, how to get growth in the economy. Would you accept that the

:12:44. > :12:49.Democrats would be in a much worse position for this coming election

:12:49. > :12:55.if they did not have someone with the charisma of Mr Obama leading

:12:55. > :12:59.them? To be honest, the talk in the bars in Charlotte was that actually,

:12:59. > :13:07.former President Bill Clinton had actually... But he is charismatic,

:13:07. > :13:11.too. So, I would not draw that central reach. What Bill Clinton

:13:11. > :13:14.did, very effectively, was to destroy the claim on the right,

:13:15. > :13:18.which we see both in the British Government and in some

:13:18. > :13:24.Conservatives supporters, that actually they have got a fiscally

:13:24. > :13:27.credible strategy. The Shadow Foreign Secretary does not think

:13:27. > :13:31.President Obama is charismatic, but apart from that, what came across,

:13:31. > :13:35.I thought, was that it takes more than four years to sort out the

:13:35. > :13:38.mess when you have lost control of the public finances. That was the

:13:38. > :13:44.central argument put by Bill Clinton - you need more than four

:13:44. > :13:53.years to sort it out. I think that was a very powerful argument.

:13:53. > :13:56.need the right strategy, not the wrong plan. You said Mr Clinton's

:13:56. > :14:00.demolition of the economic credibility of the Mitt Romney plan

:14:00. > :14:04.was a masterclass - who could do that in Britain for you? I think

:14:04. > :14:08.the facts in Britain are speaking for themselves. You have just said

:14:08. > :14:13.it - the economy has not grown for three-quarters, the deficit is

:14:13. > :14:15.rising, not falling, the debt target is not go to be met. All of

:14:15. > :14:20.us have a responsibility to give the facts to the British people,

:14:20. > :14:29.that Plan A has failed.. Rather than me, should that not be Ed

:14:29. > :14:33.Balls? He did it to the TUC only yesterday. He got booed. I would

:14:33. > :14:40.have thought you would have been intrigued that when he said we

:14:41. > :14:46.needed rigour and discipline in the public finances, certain delegates

:14:46. > :14:52.chose to boo. The I personally think he was absolutely right to

:14:52. > :14:56.say what he said. I applaud Ed Miliband for having the courage to

:14:56. > :15:00.say that in front of the TUC, as well as in other organisations.

:15:01. > :15:05.Keeping the American analogy, as you know, there is a major school

:15:05. > :15:12.teacher strike on in Chicago at the moment, the first time in a

:15:12. > :15:15.generation, and the man who runs a Chicago is a former Chief of Staff,

:15:15. > :15:20.he is out to reform the teaching unions, and to reform education in

:15:20. > :15:24.the city, which has got an appalling education system - it is

:15:24. > :15:34.a big embarrassment to Mr Obama, who has not said a word, but how

:15:34. > :15:36.

:15:36. > :15:41.big a potential this winter to the In terms of the position, Ed

:15:41. > :15:44.Miliband has been clear in saying he doesn't want these strikes. I'm

:15:44. > :15:48.happy to repeat that today. We don't believe it's the right

:15:48. > :15:52.approach for the trade unions to anticipate strikes, but we are

:15:52. > :16:02.deeply concerned from some of the noises we are hearing within

:16:02. > :16:08.

:16:08. > :16:13.Government that along with the snow, the Royal Wedding and the... It is

:16:14. > :16:18.for trade unions to decide what lines toe use. I don't want a

:16:18. > :16:25.labour strike. Is there any grounds for a general strike? I don't think

:16:25. > :16:30.the case has been made in Britain, no. How relishing is the Government

:16:30. > :16:36.over the public sector union outcry? I think it's a double-edged

:16:36. > :16:40.sword for them. They like the politics, the fact that makes tough

:16:40. > :16:43.questions for Labour. Equally they know they don't want to get into a

:16:43. > :16:47.fight where it feeds the narrative of this is the Government that

:16:47. > :16:52.can't do things, that it is not sorting things. They know that the

:16:52. > :16:55.idea of restraint within the public sector is electorally popular with

:16:55. > :17:00.many people, particularly those who work in the private sector. But

:17:00. > :17:02.equally there are many within the coalition, remember one or or two

:17:02. > :17:06.Liberal Democrats formed this coalition too. They don't want to

:17:06. > :17:09.get on the wrong side of public sector voters, students and others,

:17:09. > :17:12.who've traditionally voted for them as a party. There's a nervousness

:17:12. > :17:17.about it but I think there is no question of any doubt within

:17:17. > :17:22.Government this is what they are going to do. Is it not hypocritical

:17:22. > :17:25.for the Government to say that if the unions do go on strike and

:17:26. > :17:28.cause disruption that you are going to bring in the military, just at a

:17:29. > :17:34.time when you are savaging the numbers in the military, cutting

:17:34. > :17:39.the Army down to 373,000 from 106,000? Are you serious about

:17:39. > :17:45.that? As the Prime Minister said at Prime Minister's Questions, there

:17:45. > :17:50.is as we know the military will come in and serve. There are no

:17:50. > :17:55.plans to change the arrangements with the military. I thought James

:17:55. > :17:59.was overanalysing this. People don't want a general strike. It

:17:59. > :18:06.would be outrageous for the public sector for a general strike. Of

:18:06. > :18:08.course we value public services but when you look at the pay in the

:18:08. > :18:13.public services, I think really it would be completely wrong for them

:18:13. > :18:18.to go on strike. That's a strong feeling across the country. We

:18:18. > :18:26.understand it and the Labour Party don't. You were not allowed to

:18:26. > :18:34.criticise James on this programme. He is a national treasure, Mr James

:18:34. > :18:38.Landale. We are going to release you now, my little treasure. He is

:18:38. > :18:42.going to stay actually. Just for today. In the last few minutes,

:18:42. > :18:45.David Cameron, the Prime Minister, had apologised to the families of

:18:45. > :18:50.the 96 people who died at the Hillsborough stadium. He said on

:18:50. > :18:53.behalf of the Government and indeed of our country, I am profoundly

:18:54. > :18:58.sorry that this double injustice has been left uncorrected for so

:18:58. > :19:02.long. Although he did say the report had found no evidence that

:19:02. > :19:08.the Government tried to conceal the truth about reports. An independent

:19:08. > :19:12.report condemns the responses of the police. Mr Speaker, over all

:19:12. > :19:15.these years questions have been raised about the role of Government,

:19:15. > :19:18.including whether it did enough to uncover the true. It is certainly

:19:18. > :19:22.true that some of the language in the Government papers published

:19:23. > :19:26.today was insensitive. But having been through every document and

:19:26. > :19:29.every Government document, including Cabinet minutes will be

:19:29. > :19:34.published, the panel found no evidence of any Government trying

:19:34. > :19:40.to conceal the truth. At the time of the Taylor Report the then Prime

:19:40. > :19:45.Minister was briefed by her Private Secretary and the defensive and I

:19:45. > :19:51.quote, close to deceitful behaviour of Yorkshire officers was

:19:51. > :19:56.depressingly familiar. It was clear that the then Government thought

:19:56. > :19:59.that the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire should resign. As the

:19:59. > :20:03.honourable member has rightly highlighted Governments then and

:20:03. > :20:09.since have not done enough to challenge publicly the unjust and

:20:09. > :20:14.untrue narrative to sought to blame the fans. Third and perhaps most

:20:14. > :20:22.significantly of all the Bishop of Liverpool's report casts new

:20:22. > :20:29.evidence which casts doubt over the original evidence. The coroner

:20:29. > :20:34.believed victims suffered asphyxia leading to unconsciousness within

:20:34. > :20:39.seconds and death within minutes. As a result he asserted that beyond

:20:39. > :20:44.3.15pm there was no actions that could have changed the fate of the

:20:44. > :20:49.victims. By analysing post-mortem reports the panel found that 28

:20:49. > :20:52.people did not have obstruction of blood circulation and 31 have

:20:53. > :20:58.evidence of heart and lungs continuing to function after the

:20:58. > :21:03.crush. This means that individuals in those groups could have had

:21:03. > :21:10.potentially reversible asphyxia beyond 3.15pm, in contrast to the

:21:10. > :21:13.findings of the coroner and a subsequent judicial review. James,

:21:13. > :21:17.first of all the apology. Very clear. How significant is that do

:21:17. > :21:21.you think for families? I can't prejudge how the families are going

:21:21. > :21:27.to respond to this but clearly the Prime Minister has gone as far as

:21:27. > :21:31.he was able, making it clear that he makes as Prime Minister a

:21:31. > :21:35.profound apology. For two things. One element was the behaviour of

:21:35. > :21:41.the emergency services and the police and others while it was

:21:41. > :21:47.happening. That last shocking fact, that there were people there who

:21:47. > :21:51.could have been saved, with reversible asphyxia and perhaps not

:21:51. > :21:57.enough was done on that front. The second point is the scale of the

:21:57. > :22:00.cover-up. He talks of 164 official statements being changed. Of the

:22:00. > :22:06.police taking blood samples from dead children to see if there was

:22:06. > :22:11.alcohol in their system. To see if that could in anyway transfer the

:22:11. > :22:14.blame to them for behaviour on that day. The impression is that the

:22:14. > :22:18.Prime Minister's given a shocking account of what this report says

:22:18. > :22:23.and from the Government's point of view, a total apology, but not for

:22:23. > :22:26.any Government actions. We heard that in his statement. No. He was

:22:26. > :22:30.clear, they hadn't concealed any of the evidence. But deeply

:22:30. > :22:34.distressing, those are the words of the Prime Minister and the

:22:34. > :22:40.testimony, but what the families want is justice. What does justice

:22:40. > :22:44.look like? We've heard now this evidence that statements were

:22:44. > :22:51.altered. What do you think justice looks like? We'll see what has

:22:51. > :22:57.emerged. The families got sight of this documentation at 9.30am. We

:22:57. > :23:01.pay tribute to the families of the 96 who in the face of an apparent

:23:01. > :23:05.disengagement of politicians from all political partys in the past

:23:05. > :23:09.kept going and showed persveefrpblts I hope they feel a

:23:09. > :23:13.sense of vindication today for a more than two decades-long struggle.

:23:13. > :23:17.It will criticise the Prime Minister every day of the week if I

:23:17. > :23:20.think he is getting it wrong. I think he got it right today in

:23:20. > :23:25.offering a comprehensive apology. What the families have maintained

:23:25. > :23:30.is that today is about truth. What they want next is justice. What

:23:30. > :23:37.that may mean is the re-opening of the inquest. There was a deadline

:23:37. > :23:41.set that the inquest would only look up until 3.15pm on that

:23:41. > :23:45.afternoon. I would expect it may well be that people will say we

:23:45. > :23:48.need the re-opening of the inquest. That's matter for the families.

:23:48. > :23:52.Prime Minister did hint at that. He said the Attorney General is going

:23:52. > :23:56.to have another look at this and dropped a hint that was his view

:23:56. > :24:01.that the inquest should be re- opened. What about the emergency

:24:01. > :24:07.services and the police? It reflects very badly on the police

:24:07. > :24:11.as an institution doesn't it? don't know what's in the report but

:24:11. > :24:16.it is clearly a powerful report. I agree with what Douglas Alexander

:24:16. > :24:22.said. We have to understand the importance of the families today.

:24:22. > :24:25.They have all of our respect for the persistence they've showed. The

:24:26. > :24:31.Bishop of Liverpool and the excellent work he's done. There are

:24:31. > :24:34.lots of lessons from. This as people now have for the first time

:24:34. > :24:44.the ul evidence, which have not been shown before, there'll be a

:24:44. > :24:48.whole range of issues that get opened up. This is a very

:24:48. > :24:52.chastening incident for the entire nation. We do all need to learn the

:24:52. > :24:58.lessons. Do you think, Douglas Alexander, that someone will be

:24:58. > :25:02.held to account in that sense? You are right, today is about the

:25:02. > :25:07.families and their response and uncovering the testimony we haven't

:25:07. > :25:15.seen before. Or sit now, has the time passed and it has all been

:25:15. > :25:19.laid to bare and that will be enough? One of the mothers of the

:25:19. > :25:22.victims said for us justify is accountability. We've seen the hope

:25:22. > :25:27.of the families that it will lead to greater accountability. Like

:25:27. > :25:31.David, I can't prejudge where this will now go but I do think there's

:25:31. > :25:35.a strong possibility that the inquest will be re-opened. Whether

:25:36. > :25:39.there are other procedures that follow on from that I don't know,

:25:39. > :25:44.but I welcome the fact hopefully the families will feel today that

:25:44. > :25:48.at least the search for information is over T search for justice may

:25:48. > :25:54.well continue. In terms of this never happening again, a cover-up

:25:54. > :25:58.like this couldn't, could it? hope not. That's one other

:25:58. > :26:02.important thing from. This this is also about openness and

:26:02. > :26:06.accountability. I think all of news our different ways in public

:26:06. > :26:09.service, we do need to remember that we are held to very high

:26:09. > :26:15.standards that. Must include open access wherever possible to

:26:15. > :26:19.decisions we take and why we took them. James? It wouldn't be

:26:19. > :26:21.possible, as today everybody has mobile phones. As we've seen in

:26:21. > :26:26.recent riots and demonstration this is incident would have been covered.

:26:26. > :26:30.The amount of film of what had happened would have been

:26:30. > :26:34.instantaneous. It was a different era. You are right. One of the big

:26:34. > :26:38.criticisms at the time or in the initial report was that Liverpool

:26:38. > :26:42.fans were criticised and the blame was pushed on to them, that they

:26:43. > :26:47.had come in this a drunk and disorderly fashion, that they had

:26:47. > :26:51.pushed into the terraces one or two tickets. We would have almost

:26:51. > :26:54.video... I can't think of another example in our public life where it

:26:54. > :26:58.appears that the establishment came together and blamed the victim

:26:58. > :27:02.force a tragedy. That's been the root toifpb justify felt on

:27:02. > :27:06.Merseyside for two decades. It is not just they wanted to understand

:27:06. > :27:09.the appalling sequence of events. They also wanted the narrative of

:27:09. > :27:14.what happened that afternoon to change. Hopefully that will change

:27:14. > :27:18.as a result of today. James. Thank you very much. Pleasure. We'll see

:27:18. > :27:22.you soon. Not soon enough.

:27:22. > :27:26.At this point of the programme we had hoped to speak to a

:27:26. > :27:32.representative of the Respect Party about the news that their leader

:27:32. > :27:35.has resigned, blaming a breakdown in trust at senior levels. However,

:27:35. > :27:39.George Galloway's office refused and the press office wouldn't

:27:39. > :27:42.return our calls. We know when we're not wanted. We always like to

:27:42. > :27:47.think the best of people on this programme. We always give people

:27:47. > :27:52.the benefit of the doubt. We don't always, but sometimes we do.

:27:52. > :27:58.LAUGHTER We are sure Respect aren't just trying to shut this story down,

:27:58. > :28:03.so I would like to invite on air a representative from Respect to come

:28:03. > :28:08.on our show tomorrow. We look forward to hearing for you.

:28:08. > :28:18.The answer to Guess The Year was 19806789 David, just bash that big

:28:18. > :28:20.

:28:20. > :28:30.red thing there. David Fouracre from balm, you win

:28:30. > :28:31.

:28:31. > :28:37.this fancy Andy Murray mug. -- from Birmingham. I don't know

:28:37. > :28:41.what kind of mug you are getting. Thanks to all of our guests.

:28:41. > :28:44.There'll be more coverage of the Hillsborough statement and reaction

:28:44. > :28:48.in Liverpool on BBC One with the one o'clock news.