:00:39. > :00:48.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Now listen up, you
:00:48. > :00:53.don't hear this very often. There is no easy way to say this. We made
:00:54. > :00:57.a pledge. We didn't stick to it. And for that, I am sorry. Yes,
:00:57. > :01:02.that's the sound of a politician apologising. Nick Clegg says sorry
:01:02. > :01:05.for breaking his pledge on tuition fees. He says he will never again
:01:05. > :01:09.make a promise he can't keep. But will that be enough to win back
:01:09. > :01:12.lost voters? Over half a million people will be
:01:12. > :01:15.affected by a major change to the pensions system when automatic
:01:15. > :01:19.enrolment kicks in next month. We will talk to pensions minister,
:01:19. > :01:22.Steve Webb. Conservative chairman Grant Shapps
:01:22. > :01:29.will be here to explain how and why Downing Street is selling its
:01:29. > :01:33.expertise abroad. And the government wants us to love
:01:33. > :01:35.them but it seems the UK public isn't convinced by electric cars.
:01:36. > :01:45.Motoring journalist Quentin Willson will be here to explain why they
:01:45. > :01:50.are the future. You just touched the throttle like this, and you are
:01:50. > :01:57.chasing Mini Coopers, literally. It is lovely to drive and an absolute
:01:57. > :02:01.hoot. Chasing Mini Coopers? I don't think
:02:01. > :02:05.All that in the next hour. With us for the duration journalist, author,
:02:05. > :02:14.broadcaster, educationalist. A man with a very long business card.
:02:14. > :02:17.It's Toby Young. Welcome back. Thank you. Let's start with the
:02:17. > :02:19.warning this morning from Michael Wilshaw, the head of England's
:02:19. > :02:22.schools standards watchdog, who says the coalition's pupil premium
:02:22. > :02:25.policy to target extra funding at poor pupils in England, for which
:02:25. > :02:32.the Lib Dems have been taking the credit, is having little impact on
:02:32. > :02:37.many schools. The government asked us to do a
:02:37. > :02:41.survey on this, which we did, and we looked at nearly 300 schools to
:02:41. > :02:45.see how they were spending the money, and it came as a surprise
:02:45. > :02:50.when inspectors said over 50% said it had made little or no difference
:02:50. > :02:55.to the way they organised the school and managed it in terms of
:02:55. > :02:58.supporting the poorest children and we are saying this is a substantial
:02:58. > :03:03.tranche of government money, it has got to go on those children for
:03:04. > :03:11.whom it is meant and if it goes elsewhere, it is not spent wisely.
:03:11. > :03:14.By a miracle of modern planning, our guest of the day, Toby Young,
:03:14. > :03:20.co-founded a new free school in London and now chairs the school's
:03:20. > :03:27.board of governors. You were instrumental in starting it. Do any
:03:27. > :03:32.of your pupils get this premium? What do you use it for? We had 25%
:03:32. > :03:39.on free school meals in the first year, 28% this year. That is a
:03:39. > :03:43.proxy for poverty? Yes. You have to be in a household earning less than
:03:43. > :03:50.�16,000 a year to be eligible. It is a mistake to assume that
:03:50. > :03:55.children on free school meals will always need extra help. Our highest
:03:55. > :04:00.achieving girls are on free school meals, and the highest achieving
:04:00. > :04:06.cohort across England are Chinese gold on free school meals, so it is
:04:06. > :04:10.a mistake to assume they always need extra help. We spend the
:04:10. > :04:17.premium on its three instrument lessons to children who want to
:04:17. > :04:23.take up music -- on a free music lessons. We subsidise school trips,
:04:23. > :04:28.that sort of things. See you think it would be a mistake to earmark
:04:28. > :04:35.the money that you get exclusively for the kids with a price on the
:04:35. > :04:42.head? Les. There is so much red tape that schools have to wade
:04:42. > :04:46.through -- yes. To insist they ring-fence the pupil premium and
:04:46. > :04:50.then get them under due diligence about how they spend it will create
:04:50. > :04:53.another bureaucratic hurdle for them. The important thing is that
:04:53. > :04:59.children on free school meals should be doing as well as those
:04:59. > :05:02.who are not. So in a sense, the pupil premium is not a per capita
:05:02. > :05:09.payment because of the number of kids you have from low income
:05:09. > :05:13.families, it is a top-up to your funds. Absolutely. The Lib Dems
:05:13. > :05:17.make a bit too much of the pupils premium and present it as a
:05:17. > :05:21.fantastic concession they have got out of the Tories and they will
:05:21. > :05:27.brag about it in the next election campaign but �600 is a fraction of
:05:27. > :05:34.what you get overwrought for a pupil on free school meals. --
:05:35. > :05:39.overall. You get about �6,000 for a pupil and an extra 2500 if they are
:05:40. > :05:43.on free school meals and only an extra 600 for the pupil premium.
:05:43. > :05:50.You must be encouraged that the girls on free school meals are
:05:50. > :06:00.doing so well. Absolutely, it is fantastic. Working hard! Anyway...
:06:00. > :06:00.
:06:00. > :06:03.How i's your lumbago today? -- how is your lumbago? Fine! Is the
:06:03. > :06:06.arthritis playing you up? Let's face it, none of us is getting any
:06:06. > :06:09.younger. And yet millions of us don't have a pension. Now I sound
:06:09. > :06:13.like one of those day-time TV adverts. Like Michael Parkinson!
:06:13. > :06:15.You can't get coverage cheaper than that! The number of people actively
:06:15. > :06:24.paying into a workplace pension scheme has dropped consistently in
:06:24. > :06:27.recent years to little more than eight million. There are about 25
:06:27. > :06:35.million people in the private sector. Anyway, the government is
:06:35. > :06:37.Starting from next month, the government will phase-in an
:06:37. > :06:42.automatic enrolment scheme which will put all workers into a
:06:42. > :06:46.workplace pension. That's if they are aged between 22 and the state
:06:46. > :06:50.pension age. Earn at least �8,105 a year. And are not already in a
:06:50. > :06:54.scheme which meets the minimum standards. Employees can opt out.
:06:54. > :06:57.But saving in a pension will be the new default setting for anyone who
:06:57. > :07:00.does not express a choice. Eventually, the automatic level of
:07:00. > :07:04.contributions will be at least 8% of the individual's qualifying
:07:04. > :07:06.earnings. This includes three per cent which comes from the employer.
:07:06. > :07:15.Speaking on a visit to a supermarket today, pensions
:07:15. > :07:19.secretary Iain Duncan Smith said Britain has a terrible savings
:07:19. > :07:24.culture. Saving in a pension is beginning to fall. 11 million
:07:24. > :07:27.people simply do not save enough for their retirement. This is the
:07:27. > :07:32.opportunity to give people a slow and easy way to save that
:07:32. > :07:37.guarantees them a decent income in retirement. That is a vital
:07:37. > :07:44.ingredient for our lives. We spent a lot of years when we are not
:07:44. > :07:48.working and we need to make sure our income before we retire is set.
:07:48. > :07:53.Everything we say it needs to go towards a our future, not to the
:07:53. > :07:57.government's future. Iain Duncan Smith. And with us now
:07:57. > :08:01.is his colleague, Pensions Minister and Lib Dem MP Steve Webb. The
:08:02. > :08:11.bottom 10th of her owners, the lowest paid people in the country,
:08:12. > :08:12.
:08:12. > :08:18.are paying... They're paid did not rise at all last year. -- and their
:08:18. > :08:22.salary did not rise. Food prices went up, utility bills went up 20%,
:08:22. > :08:28.things they all have to pay, no choice on that, and now you are
:08:28. > :08:32.going to take another 4% from their income. How does that work? This is
:08:32. > :08:37.a voluntary scheme. If somebody is really strapped for cash, they can
:08:37. > :08:41.opt out. But most people know they need a pension but it is too
:08:41. > :08:47.difficult and complicated. The employee you would choose a scheme
:08:47. > :08:53.and put some money in. Behind Iain Duncan-Smith was the sign "buy one
:08:53. > :08:59.get one free". You put four in and that turns into eight because of
:08:59. > :09:04.what the workplace will put him. You can say goodbye to any pay rise
:09:04. > :09:10.next year because the employee will have to put in an extra 3%, so it
:09:10. > :09:14.is not buy one get one free. Just because you work for a small firm,
:09:14. > :09:18.it doesn't mean you should retire poorer. So we have tried to ease
:09:18. > :09:22.the burden on the smaller firms, they don't have to come in for a
:09:22. > :09:26.few years. It will be done very gradually, but what is the
:09:26. > :09:33.alternative? But a lot of people who do not take home much already
:09:33. > :09:39.will see this as another tax. It is another 4% on income tax. Is it 4%
:09:39. > :09:44.of everything they earn? Above 5,000. That is lower than when
:09:44. > :09:49.income tax kicks in? Exactly. We want to raise the income tax
:09:49. > :09:54.threshold, which will help the people you are talking about. We
:09:54. > :09:58.are bringing this 4% in over five years, and the evidence around the
:09:58. > :10:04.world is that this is quite possible -- popular. A phrase I
:10:04. > :10:10.heard at the supermarket was, this is the nudge by needed. I knew I
:10:10. > :10:16.needed a pension. If you are a 50-year-old owning
:10:16. > :10:22.�20,000, after 16 years of paying into a scheme with 4% of your
:10:22. > :10:31.income been taken away every year, you are left with an income at 66,
:10:31. > :10:36.when they retire, your pension will be �940 a year at! Every year!
:10:36. > :10:40.if you start saving at 50, not 22, those are the sorts of figures you
:10:40. > :10:45.will get. The beauty of this is it gets young people in and they can
:10:45. > :10:52.build on that. We have to get people in earlier. Hand on heart,
:10:52. > :10:56.can you look at a 50-year-old today, it works out as �18 a week, it is a
:10:57. > :11:02.pittance. Could you really look at a 50-year-old and say, this is what
:11:02. > :11:06.you should do? Absolutely. If they invested in a savings account they
:11:06. > :11:11.do not get the employer contribution. The money is
:11:11. > :11:15.immediately doubled. The employer contribution bit alarms me. There
:11:15. > :11:19.is no question that this will increase the burden on small
:11:19. > :11:24.businesses and that runs counter to the post reshuffle of mood music
:11:24. > :11:29.that the coalition will make life easier for small businesses. I
:11:29. > :11:35.wonder if this is a Lib Dem pound of flesh extracted from Michael
:11:35. > :11:40.Fallon! It has been talked about Labour legislated this, Adair
:11:40. > :11:44.Turner came up with this idea a decade ago, and with pensions you
:11:44. > :11:48.want consistent all party support. All the major parties are behind
:11:48. > :11:53.this because we not have an alternative. People will retire in
:11:53. > :12:00.poverty if we don't do it. would be bragging in the next
:12:00. > :12:05.election that this was a concession won by the Lib Dems. I am proud to
:12:05. > :12:10.be involved with this. These are tough times for people at the lower
:12:10. > :12:13.end of the income scale. Their income is not going up, and the
:12:13. > :12:18.things they have to spend money on, these are not discretionary
:12:18. > :12:22.spending and treats, they have got to pay utility bills and put food
:12:22. > :12:28.on the table. Because of that, people will say, I cannot afford at
:12:28. > :12:34.the moment to lose another 4% of my income so I will opt out.
:12:34. > :12:38.recognise some people may opt out, maybe up to a third, but even then,
:12:38. > :12:44.maybe 9 million people will be getting into pensions for the first
:12:44. > :12:49.time. I think it is great. If you got in at the age of 25, and when I
:12:49. > :12:58.was 25, almost ten years ago now, I did not think about pensions. It is
:12:58. > :13:04.tough. I wanted the 4% to go and spend it. But if you go in at 25
:13:04. > :13:10.and you got your three, four and your one up on tax relief, or what
:13:10. > :13:13.pension would you end up with? you are on �15,000, the state
:13:13. > :13:18.pension plus this pension will replace most of that so you are
:13:18. > :13:22.living standards will be about the same. If you are on average
:13:22. > :13:30.earnings, you need to do more than this, clearly. The challenge is to
:13:30. > :13:35.get people in in the first place. �140? For a flat-rate pension?
:13:35. > :13:40.is the figure we are speaking about. The Prime Minister called this the
:13:40. > :13:46.best thing since sliced bread. He now seems to be less enthusiastic.
:13:46. > :13:50.Is it going to be dropped and the men did? No. We will publish a
:13:51. > :13:55.White Paper in the autumn. It will happen and it is the foundation for
:13:55. > :14:01.what we are talking about today. Get the pension up to a decent
:14:01. > :14:05.level. The other thing we are seeing is that because the deficit
:14:05. > :14:11.reduction is not quite going as quickly as the coalition said it
:14:11. > :14:18.would, and you might not meet the debt target of debts falling to a
:14:18. > :14:24.percentage of GDP by 2016, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Apology,
:14:24. > :14:29.he said that there would be no further welfare cuts that we would
:14:29. > :14:35.accept. But yesterday, he said that more cuts were possible. Where are
:14:35. > :14:40.we? Where are the Lib Dems? We have always taken the view that cuts
:14:40. > :14:45.have to be made across the board but our priority is to protect the
:14:45. > :14:48.most vulnerable. That will always be the way that we approach future
:14:48. > :14:53.discussions about spending reductions. You are not ruling out
:14:53. > :15:02.further cuts in the welfare budget? We will try to protect the
:15:02. > :15:05.I mentioned your glorious leader and his YouTube apology, which I
:15:05. > :15:10.think we'll be a party political broadcast next week as well. Let's
:15:10. > :15:15.get your reaction. We made a promise before the election that we
:15:15. > :15:19.would vote against any rise in fees under any circumstances. That was a
:15:19. > :15:22.mistake. It was a pledge made with the best of intentions, but we
:15:22. > :15:27.should not have made a promise we were not absolutely sure that we
:15:27. > :15:30.could deliver. I should not have committed to a policy that was so
:15:30. > :15:36.expensive when there was no money around, not least when the most
:15:36. > :15:40.likely way we would end up in government was with coalition with
:15:40. > :15:46.either Labour or the Conservatives, who were both committed to putting
:15:46. > :15:51.them up. A sensible idea to apologise at this point? I think it
:15:51. > :15:54.took guts. We found we had a lot of things we wanted to talk about, the
:15:54. > :16:00.tax system, the green agenda, sometimes it is landing on deaf
:16:00. > :16:04.ears. People say, hang on, tuition fees. Do some extent it's in the
:16:04. > :16:07.past? It is, but some of our own people are still bruised. We are a
:16:07. > :16:11.party that prides itself on its integrity and this was a damaging
:16:11. > :16:16.exercise for all of us. I think clearing the air at this point,
:16:16. > :16:19.rather than letting it run on to the next election, we need people
:16:19. > :16:23.to believe what we are going to say and we need to know how we can
:16:23. > :16:29.learn from what went wrong last time. A gamble? It could expose
:16:29. > :16:31.them to ridicule? You get nowhere if you do not take chances. He knew
:16:31. > :16:41.that would be on YouTube but he thought it would be the right thing
:16:41. > :16:44.
:16:44. > :16:48.to do Foster let's look at the # We made a promise we would vote
:16:48. > :16:52.against any rise in fees, any rise in fees.
:16:52. > :16:57.# It was made with the best of intentions, the best of intentions.
:16:57. > :17:02.# We should not have made a promise we were not sure that we can
:17:02. > :17:06.deliver. # I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm so, so
:17:06. > :17:16.sorry. # There is no easy way to say I'm
:17:16. > :17:19.
:17:19. > :17:24.Even you are smiling! We are going to hire those creatives for our
:17:24. > :17:28.next election campaign! What is he apologising for? We were quite
:17:28. > :17:32.clear, we went into an election saying we would get rid of fees.
:17:32. > :17:37.The difference is, when Labour said they would not introduce fees, they
:17:37. > :17:41.won the election and did it anyway. You are apologising for breaking
:17:41. > :17:45.the promise, but not apologising for the policy? The policy is about
:17:45. > :17:55.saying that when you repay, you repay at higher income levels, only
:17:55. > :17:59.at the end and not up front. Those elements are good. You mentioned
:18:00. > :18:02.the trust. Surely the allegation is that you cannot trust what people
:18:02. > :18:07.say in their manifesto because everything is up for grabs in a
:18:07. > :18:13.coalition? If we could rewind, would we make that pledge again? No.
:18:13. > :18:18.I think that we have learned from that, making sure everything is
:18:18. > :18:25.costed out so that you can rely on it. What I was told us that his
:18:25. > :18:29.motivation comes from the reaction that it is still simmering among
:18:29. > :18:33.Lib Dem Party activists? I think you confirmed that? It is the
:18:33. > :18:38.public and the party. He spent a lot of time out there. He does not
:18:38. > :18:46.hide in Westminster. He senses that time had not healed this one and he
:18:46. > :18:50.needed to nail it and he has. should say that Nick Clegg has
:18:50. > :18:57.given permission to release a charity version of that song. Any
:18:57. > :19:00.profits are given to the Sheffield Children's NHS Foundation Trust.
:19:00. > :19:04.You agree it was not costed and you never thought the policy would come
:19:04. > :19:09.into play? Because it was costed, we thought it could not be done in
:19:09. > :19:13.a single parliament. It was a long- term plan, but an expensive one.
:19:13. > :19:18.it was an aspiration, if it was not in your four key pledges, why did
:19:18. > :19:21.Nick Clegg stand there with a big pledge, in such a public display of
:19:22. > :19:26.commitment to the policy and sign it, if it was an aspiration and a
:19:26. > :19:30.long-term commitment? That is the irony. If you take our manifesto,
:19:30. > :19:35.on the front cover it says four things. This was not one of them.
:19:35. > :19:39.It says taking people out of tax, the pupil premium, the green agenda,
:19:39. > :19:44.the front of a manifesto went straight into government. But you
:19:44. > :19:50.grandstand did this. You all went and signed it? Online, we all
:19:50. > :19:55.signed on to it. We have learned from that. Toby Young, are you
:19:56. > :19:58.convinced? Will that do it? I hope it becomes a trend. I would like to
:19:58. > :20:01.see Gordon Brown follow-up with apologising for promising to end
:20:02. > :20:07.boom-and-bust. I'd like to see David Cameron apologise for going
:20:08. > :20:12.back on his 2007 referendum to hold a EU referendum. I'd like George
:20:12. > :20:18.Osborne to promise for -- apologise for not cutting public expenditure,
:20:18. > :20:23.which he promised to do so. If this is going to be the content of party
:20:23. > :20:27.political broadcasts now, it will be in every one until the election.
:20:27. > :20:31.If they are going to do all of these apologies, the programme will
:20:31. > :20:34.have to go to 90 minutes! It is the Government wasting
:20:34. > :20:39.millions of pounds on a electric car charging point that only a
:20:39. > :20:43.handful of people using? A new report from the Transport Select
:20:43. > :20:47.Committee says the Government has spent �11 million on 1600 public
:20:47. > :20:51.charging points and grants for new electric cars. But only 1000 cars
:20:51. > :20:55.have been registered since the start of last year. Despite this,
:20:55. > :20:59.we have managed to track down an owner of not one, but two electric
:20:59. > :21:09.cars. Here is Quentin Willson on why more of us should swap the
:21:09. > :21:15.
:21:15. > :21:20.petrol station for the charging Electric cars. Slow, boring, not
:21:20. > :21:25.interesting at all. Wrong. I've got two and they are fantastic. It
:21:25. > :21:30.costs you �1 to do 100 miles in electricity. You can fast charge
:21:30. > :21:37.one back to 80% in less than 30 minutes. They are simple to own.
:21:37. > :21:47.Like plugging in your iPad or your charger, just in here, 30 minutes
:21:47. > :21:54.
:21:54. > :21:58.The first thing you get with an electric car is this amazing
:21:58. > :22:03.feeling of silence. You will never have experienced it before. And
:22:03. > :22:10.speed. We've got this new phenomenon of silence Bede, where
:22:10. > :22:20.you just touched the throttle, like this and you are chasing many
:22:20. > :22:25.
:22:25. > :22:35.Qubairs, literally. Absolute fruit. -- You are chasing a Mini Cooper,
:22:35. > :22:36.
:22:36. > :22:43.Quentin Willson has joined us in the studio. We have been joined
:22:43. > :22:46.from Liverpool by the Labour MP who chairs the Transport Select
:22:46. > :22:51.Committee, Louise Ellman. You love the cars, but can you believe that
:22:51. > :22:55.everybody else will be convinced? It will take some time. The in a
:22:55. > :22:59.urban myths are huge. They are no good, slow and boring. They are
:22:59. > :23:03.extremely easy to drive. The technology is here and now. The
:23:03. > :23:07.major point is that we need to establish a market for these cars
:23:07. > :23:14.as an alternative to diesel and petrol. We have the highest prices
:23:14. > :23:21.of diesel and petrol ever. You can drive 100 miles for �1. That sounds
:23:21. > :23:26.incredible. I use these electric cars for all of my urban journeys.
:23:26. > :23:31.They are quick, interesting... but on the point of urban journeys,
:23:31. > :23:34.I could imagine having that, maybe if that was a car that I did go
:23:34. > :23:38.around town in. But as my only car, are you going to convince people
:23:38. > :23:44.that this is just about supporting affluent people having two cars,
:23:44. > :23:48.the second one being electric? are right that you can't go to
:23:48. > :23:53.Manchester and do 300 miles. There are a range of different engines.
:23:53. > :23:58.But give us time. This is an emerging market that we need to
:23:58. > :24:01.push. The UK needs to be the world leader in this technology. We can
:24:01. > :24:04.create jobs, employment and all of this stuff. He murdered the market
:24:04. > :24:11.now and say it does not work for people because that technology is
:24:11. > :24:15.not advanced enough, that would be very wrong. Louise Ellman, is this
:24:15. > :24:19.wishful thinking by the Government or can this transform our transport
:24:19. > :24:23.strategy and cut carbon emissions? Well, they certainly could
:24:23. > :24:28.transform transport strategy. The Government say that they hope to
:24:28. > :24:32.see tens of thousands of electric cars on other roads by 2015. I do
:24:32. > :24:37.think that we need to review the strategy to achieve this. It does
:24:37. > :24:40.need much better promotion of the scheme. People need to know where
:24:40. > :24:44.the charging points are. The issue of expense needs to be looked at.
:24:45. > :24:51.It might be very cheap to run them, but even with the Government grant,
:24:51. > :24:55.people can be asked to take between �25,000 and �30,000 to purchase it.
:24:55. > :25:03.Tax incentives need to be stable. One of the issues we have found is
:25:03. > :25:06.that the Government has subtly changed the tax regime without any
:25:06. > :25:10.consultation. The idea is right. The scheme needs to be reviewed and
:25:10. > :25:15.we need to encourage the purchase of the cars. How do we know the
:25:15. > :25:20.strategy has been effective? Looking at what has happened, so
:25:20. > :25:23.few people have actually purchased them. There is not actually public
:25:23. > :25:31.information about whether charging points out. We are told there are
:25:31. > :25:34.1600. But when we looked at the public register we could only find
:25:34. > :25:37.500. There are eight pilot projects but not necessarily where the cars
:25:38. > :25:42.are being purchased. All of these things need to be looked at so
:25:42. > :25:52.there can be greater successful stock would you buy one? I would
:25:52. > :25:52.
:25:52. > :25:56.I did a bit of research, and it turns out the carbon emissions that
:25:56. > :26:00.are involved in the production of an electric car, not to mention the
:26:00. > :26:04.lithium batteries, they are much greater than a carbon emissions
:26:04. > :26:08.generated by the production of a conventional car. If you have one,
:26:08. > :26:12.you can just about get back into credit, if you use the car for a
:26:12. > :26:18.very long time. But if you have two, you will never been credit on
:26:18. > :26:23.carbon emissions. Putting the carbon emissions to one side,
:26:23. > :26:28.saying, look, something that reduces our dependency on oil, or
:26:28. > :26:33.diesel, it is going to make the air Peeress anyway. Let's not get too
:26:33. > :26:38.wound up with how many grams of carbon-dioxide it takes. If less of
:26:38. > :26:42.us are driving fossil-fuel vehicles, the air quality will be much better.
:26:42. > :26:50.Louise is right... Wedd has electricity come from? That is
:26:50. > :26:55.fossil fuel. Wind and wave, as well. That was 1.8% of electricity
:26:55. > :27:03.generated. Developing that as well, we need a long-term strategy. Why
:27:03. > :27:07.are we paying 20% VAT on electric cars? How much did they cost?
:27:07. > :27:09.�25,000 for that one. All of the people that have bought them, and
:27:09. > :27:17.they say they are getting grants and it is not helping middle-class
:27:17. > :27:20.people, they pay much less than petrol cars to run them. If you are
:27:20. > :27:24.spending �11 million subsidising them, it would be better to reduce
:27:24. > :27:31.the outlay initially for the price of the car? Well, try and get these
:27:31. > :27:36.prices down by increasing the scale and getting the market to work. 10
:27:36. > :27:40.years down the line if we say, we did not let the letter cars survive
:27:40. > :27:48.and fuel is �4 a litre, we will be very sorry. Louise Ellman, have you
:27:48. > :27:50.driven one of these cars? I have been in one of these cars. The
:27:50. > :27:54.Riverside Housing Association in Liverpool are using one of these
:27:54. > :27:59.cars and showed me how effective they thought it was. This is to be
:27:59. > :28:06.we need to encourage with more incentives. What does it feel like
:28:06. > :28:12.from the driver's position? We had speed, a modern sensation. Now you
:28:12. > :28:16.have silent speed. You have this lovely wave of torque because there
:28:16. > :28:20.is no loss of power because you do not have a conventional gearbox.
:28:20. > :28:24.They are really great, really orthodox. The industry has really
:28:24. > :28:27.pushed forward and former careers. Give them more and they will be
:28:27. > :28:34.looking at batteries with 200 mile range and you can charge them in 10
:28:34. > :28:43.minutes. You said he would take on a Mini Cooper? Andrew has won, we
:28:43. > :28:53.can do Air Race! -- a race. Silent Running is not a great thing,
:28:53. > :28:56.you need to hear this thing bearing Thank you both very much. UKIP is
:28:56. > :29:03.gathering for its conference in Birmingham today. I bet most of you
:29:03. > :29:07.did not know that. You do now. Not you, you know everything. What is
:29:07. > :29:11.their biggest achievement? Coming second in the last elections for
:29:11. > :29:16.the European Parliament? They got 12 seats in Strasbourg, or Brussels,
:29:16. > :29:19.anywhere that it meets. Or is their achievement preventing the
:29:19. > :29:23.Conservatives from getting a majority at the last election?
:29:23. > :29:26.There is a theory that they cost the Tories about 20 seats because
:29:26. > :29:32.the Euro-sceptic vote was split. That has got some people thinking
:29:32. > :29:40.about a ceasefire between the parties in time for the next
:29:41. > :29:47.Could Nigel Farage helped David Cameron win the next general
:29:47. > :29:52.election? In this part of north London, the Tory MP has a majority
:29:52. > :29:57.over Labour of about 100 but 1,000 people voted for UKIP last time so
:29:57. > :30:06.securing those votes is important for the Conservatives. Hendon is
:30:06. > :30:10.also the home of the RAF Museum. The perfect place to discuss a non-
:30:10. > :30:16.aggressive pact between the two parties. I would like people who
:30:16. > :30:21.voted UKIP and people who vote for the Conservatives can support the
:30:21. > :30:27.same candidates. At one end of the scale on local deals and the others
:30:27. > :30:29.are a full merger, as happened in Canada, where they had split up the
:30:29. > :30:33.Centre Right with disastrous consequences. The important thing
:30:33. > :30:38.is to get the policy right, which is trusting people to have a say on
:30:38. > :30:44.this vital issue. A but there are some big factors that might stop
:30:44. > :30:48.this idea getting off the ground, such as: What if UKIP voters do not
:30:48. > :30:52.automatically become Conservative voters? Some of them could switch
:30:52. > :30:58.their support to other parties instead, which would do the Tories
:30:58. > :31:02.no favours. And what if getting with UKIP actually puts off other
:31:02. > :31:06.people and ends up costing the Conservatives votes? And what is
:31:06. > :31:12.too few people in either party really want to go through with it -
:31:12. > :31:17.- and what if? The idea of a pact does not appeal to UKIP's newest
:31:17. > :31:21.recruit, Lord Stevens. He was kicked out of the Tory party for
:31:21. > :31:25.writing a letter urging people to vote for UKIP. The problem the
:31:25. > :31:30.Conservative have is that UKIP is becoming a serious political party
:31:30. > :31:35.and I am not sure that UKIP would agree with it. What would the
:31:35. > :31:39.promise be? And in out referendum? The Conservatives already agreed to
:31:39. > :31:45.have a referendum on Lisbon and when they came to power, they tore
:31:45. > :31:49.up that agreement. So it is unlikely the UKIP battle bus will
:31:49. > :31:53.be dishing out Conservative leaflets any time soon. More
:31:53. > :31:59.probable is a repeat of the much less exciting situation from the
:32:00. > :32:04.last election, where UKIP did not run in seats where the Tory
:32:04. > :32:08.candidate thought broadly along the same lines as Nigel Farage. Adam
:32:08. > :32:11.Fleming reporting. And we have been joined by the deputy leader of UKIP
:32:11. > :32:13.Paul Nuttall, and by Katie Hopkins, the former Apprentice contestant
:32:13. > :32:18.who has announced she's going to stand in the next European
:32:18. > :32:23.elections for a new party called the I Want A Referendum Party. It
:32:23. > :32:30.is not clear what their policy is but it is called I Want A
:32:30. > :32:36.Referendum Party it! Welcome. His you get much of a threat to the
:32:36. > :32:41.Tories at the next general election -- is UKIP? It remains to be seen
:32:41. > :32:47.but the prognosis is that UKIP will top the poll in the 2014 European
:32:47. > :32:53.parliamentary elections and if the Conservatives are still trailing
:32:53. > :32:57.Labour at that point, I think David Cameron will come under a lot of
:32:57. > :33:03.pressure at the conference... you have an idea of what that
:33:03. > :33:10.accommodation should be? I think an electoral pact between the two,
:33:10. > :33:16.where by the Conservatives promise not to oppose UKIP in a dozen
:33:16. > :33:19.constituencies, that is unlikely. UKIP would insist as a price for
:33:19. > :33:26.that that David Cameron commit the party to a referendum in the next
:33:26. > :33:31.parliament, but that will shoot the UKIP policy anyway it. For would
:33:31. > :33:38.you be up for the pact if it was on offer? You never say never in
:33:38. > :33:42.politics. It all depends on where we are in 2015. If we have won
:33:42. > :33:45.after the European elections and we are pulling double digits, I think
:33:45. > :33:49.the Conservatives will find it difficult not to come to us because
:33:49. > :33:54.it will be clear that they will not be able to form a majority without
:33:54. > :33:58.UKIP support. But in the Westminster elections, you are
:33:58. > :34:02.essentially a spoiler. You have a lot of seats in Strasbourg but you
:34:02. > :34:07.have no seats in Westminster, though you may affect the results
:34:07. > :34:10.for the Tories in some constituencies. Surely, to make a
:34:10. > :34:16.break into Westminster you need something along the lines that Toby
:34:16. > :34:21.Young is suggesting, where you get a clear run in some constituencies.
:34:21. > :34:25.That may be the case but we have policies that appeal to the
:34:25. > :34:30.Conservative Party, and their grassroots. We are in favour of a
:34:31. > :34:35.firm immigration policy, zero tolerance on crime, grammar schools.
:34:35. > :34:39.And the Conservative Party is in trouble because it as halved their
:34:39. > :34:44.membership since David Cameron has become leader -- it has halved to
:34:45. > :34:49.their membership. Katie Hopkins. Why don't you just joined UKIP?
:34:49. > :34:53.Because I think people are tired of parties that promise a lot and do
:34:53. > :34:58.not deliver. We have been hearing, we are going to give you a
:34:58. > :35:04.referendum, we don't get it. Now there might be a strategic alliance,
:35:04. > :35:09.a packed, a coalition. Why not throw the Green Party in there? We
:35:09. > :35:13.stand for something very simple. We demand a referendum and in the
:35:13. > :35:18.European elections there will be a candidate fielded in every region
:35:18. > :35:23.of England and people can go and cross where it says "we demand a
:35:23. > :35:30.referendum", and it is not the career politicians that tell us
:35:30. > :35:34.what we think... The is that you're only policy? No. We are fighting on
:35:34. > :35:41.things like travellers' sites, small businesses to obtain a grant
:35:41. > :35:48.funding, a number of things. So you like UKIP? You have other policies.
:35:48. > :35:53.What is the point? We are a very clear party. 30% of the latest
:35:53. > :35:58.YouGov poll said they would prefer to have a movement that is solely
:35:58. > :36:03.for demanding a referendum and that is what we will provide.
:36:03. > :36:08.completely sympathise with Katie's cause, I am a Euro-sceptic, but
:36:09. > :36:13.because of that I don't think what you are proposing is a good idea. I
:36:13. > :36:17.want UKIP to top the poll in 2014 to put as much pressure as possible
:36:17. > :36:24.on the two major parties. If you are fielding candidates against
:36:24. > :36:28.UKIP, you will divide the anti- EU the voting. This is a very
:36:28. > :36:37.political perspective you have both got. I am much more representative
:36:37. > :36:42.of what people are thinking on the sofa. I don't want to be an
:36:42. > :36:46.apprentice! I will put it to you that if you are fighting for a
:36:46. > :36:52.referendum, you are fighting the wrong elections because if you
:36:52. > :36:56.fight European elections, MEPs cannot force an election and a
:36:56. > :37:01.referendum. Sometimes if I don't want to hear the answer to a
:37:01. > :37:05.question, I don't ask it. People do not want to ask it. You both all
:37:05. > :37:11.the same thing but you are splitting the Euro-sceptic in that
:37:11. > :37:16.referendum vote. We are not getting a referendum! How long have UKIP
:37:16. > :37:21.been around? We have just delivered another batch of 100,000 signatures
:37:21. > :37:26.to parliament, we have the largest mobile network of supporters and we
:37:26. > :37:29.are fed up with waiting for these guys. We want a referendum and we
:37:29. > :37:34.would it be for the next election. You can deliver as many signatures
:37:34. > :37:40.to Downing Street as you like, it is pie in the sky. The only way you
:37:40. > :37:45.could force that is in the ballot box in Westminster. In 2014, people
:37:45. > :37:49.can mark clearly that they want a referendum. Katie said it was to
:37:49. > :37:52.enable people to clearly indicate they want a referendum, and they
:37:53. > :37:58.can do that anyway by signing a pledge. You should support that
:37:58. > :38:04.pledge, it is a great campaign, not throw up a spoiler to UKIP, who we
:38:04. > :38:13.want to win in 2014. Are you worried? Sake lay, but we have seen
:38:13. > :38:18.it all before. -- a vaguely. It will not make that much difference.
:38:18. > :38:24.I don't wish to join UKIP. We have queues of people waiting to sign up
:38:24. > :38:32.when we are campaigning in the streets. Why don't you just mad a
:38:32. > :38:36.takeover of UKIP? -- Mount. Because they haven't delivered. That is the
:38:36. > :38:41.bottom line. We see them a lot and they talk a lot but they don't
:38:41. > :38:47.deliver. Where is the referendum that they have delivered? They have
:38:47. > :38:52.not won enough elections. indeed. That is why we need a new
:38:52. > :38:57.group of people. How would you be able to do it more effectively?
:38:57. > :39:02.Weekend have cross-party support. It is not about what party used
:39:02. > :39:06.belong to -- we can have cross- party support. It is not about
:39:06. > :39:11.career politicians, it is about the people. What are you going to do
:39:11. > :39:16.about this? We have seen it all before. We have had a splinter
:39:16. > :39:22.groups in the past and spoilers in the European elections. Our ground
:39:22. > :39:27.is too big. We are polling double digits and in all likelihood...
:39:27. > :39:32.Will there be many Tories like you, Toby Young, saying that they want
:39:32. > :39:36.UKIP to come ahead of the polls in the European elections? I am
:39:36. > :39:39.probably not that unusual. If you look at the people who have
:39:39. > :39:45.defected from the Conservative Party since the last election,
:39:45. > :39:51.quite a few of them have defected to UKIP precisely on that issue. It
:39:51. > :39:55.depends on the Tory party's policy about Europe. If Cameron is not
:39:55. > :40:02.committed at that point to a referendum, yes, I will be voting
:40:02. > :40:06.UKIP. We need to check about the money involved. I was in Ireland
:40:06. > :40:10.for the last referendum and the yes campaign out spent the no campaign
:40:10. > :40:17.20 fold, because the EU were pouring in money. We cannot allow
:40:18. > :40:20.that to happen again because it will be a repeat of 1975. Thank you.
:40:21. > :40:23.You're watching the Daily Politics, and we've been joined by viewers in
:40:23. > :40:27.Scotland who have been watching First Minister's Questions from
:40:27. > :40:30.Holyrood. It is a big day in Edinburgh. The
:40:30. > :40:32.economic future of five million Scots, and the fiscal reputation of
:40:32. > :40:35.the SNP, is being debated, as Finance Secretary John Swinney
:40:35. > :40:39.reveals his budget statement to the Scottish Parliament. Scotland's
:40:39. > :40:43.budget comes from a UK government block grant. In other words, taxes
:40:43. > :40:47.raised centrally by the Exchequer. There is just over 28 billion
:40:47. > :40:50.available for the coming year. The Scottish government also has the
:40:50. > :40:55.power to raise, or reduce, the basic rate of income tax by up to
:40:55. > :40:58.3p, which would generate an extra billion pounds. But, so far, the
:40:58. > :41:02.option has never been used. Holyrood cannot borrow on the
:41:02. > :41:06.international markets. But it can take out short-term loans from the
:41:07. > :41:11.UK central government. So, at the moment, the size of the cake is not
:41:11. > :41:13.really the issue, just how you distribute it. Money will be spread
:41:13. > :41:16.among devolved responsibilities like health, education, justice and
:41:16. > :41:20.policing, transport, economic development, and rural affairs. The
:41:20. > :41:22.SNP is expected to make three points:. That they are driving
:41:22. > :41:26.growth, through protecting capital investment and, in particular,
:41:26. > :41:31.construction. That they are working hard to counter cuts and alleged
:41:31. > :41:33.economic mishandling from the UK government. That independence would
:41:33. > :41:37.offer greater powers and thus greater flexibility to assist the
:41:37. > :41:41.Scottish economy. Scotland's finance secretary will be making
:41:41. > :41:48.his budget speech this afternoon. Let's talk now to the BBC's
:41:48. > :41:55.Scotland political editor, Brian Taylor. What has been said? It is
:41:55. > :42:03.very contentious, this Budget, because it is 42013-14, and 2014 is
:42:03. > :42:08.the date pencilled in firmly for the referendum on Scottish
:42:08. > :42:13.independence. We have a different referendum in play up here! John
:42:13. > :42:23.Swinney is very tightly constrained. Spending cuts of 11% over the four
:42:23. > :42:24.
:42:24. > :42:31.years up to 2015. But within that, he is trying as much as possible to
:42:31. > :42:35.revive growth, and he has done that largely by shifting from Revenue
:42:35. > :42:40.dated in spending on to Capital Investment, particularly housing
:42:40. > :42:44.and construction. The SNP said it is looking at ending the pay freeze
:42:44. > :42:49.for public sector workers. They have said that before, but is it
:42:49. > :42:54.affordable? It is a very, very contentious question. Strictly
:42:54. > :42:57.speaking, the pay freeze handled by the Scottish government is only the
:42:57. > :43:05.employees for which they have direct responsibility, civil
:43:05. > :43:09.servants, NHS, quangos and senior managements, only 20,000 people,
:43:09. > :43:16.but it sends a signal to a large part of Scotland and they have
:43:16. > :43:23.followed that pay freeze, due to end in 20th March 13. John Swinney
:43:23. > :43:29.signalled that he hoped after that to be able to allow a modest
:43:29. > :43:33.increase. I guess that would be around 1%. He will defend that
:43:33. > :43:38.argument on the basis that there has been two years of a freeze for
:43:38. > :43:44.those earning over 21,000 in the public sector, and it is aware of
:43:44. > :43:48.engendering a bit of a sense of confidence in two people, as well
:43:48. > :43:52.as pennies and pounds. So while the debate goes on about whether that
:43:53. > :43:57.is affordable, what about this spat between Iain Duncan-Smith and Alex
:43:57. > :44:02.Salmond over how Scotland would pay its benefits bill if it were in
:44:02. > :44:07.dependent? It is a very substantial row indeed. It has an immediate
:44:07. > :44:12.element, whereby the SNP and the largest opposition party, Labour,
:44:12. > :44:17.are delighted to be raising this issue and using it to give a
:44:17. > :44:21.kicking to the UK government, both Tory and Lib Dem, but there is the
:44:21. > :44:25.longer agenda. Alex Salmond wants to rebut in advance the argument
:44:25. > :44:31.being made by UK ministers that Scotland could not afford current
:44:31. > :44:35.levels of expenditure. He says the welfare budget in Scotland is
:44:35. > :44:40.substantial but Scotland has been a net contributor to the UK, in other
:44:40. > :44:47.words, the deficit in Scotland is a lower share of GDP than across the
:44:47. > :44:50.hall of the UK, so both Scotland and the UK are a economically in a
:44:50. > :45:00.mess but Alex Salmond is arguing that the bigger mess is the rest of
:45:00. > :45:02.
:45:02. > :45:05.Thank you. Now, would getting a personal text message from the
:45:05. > :45:10.Government make you more likely to pay your tax bill? How about if you
:45:10. > :45:12.were told that other people in your town had already paid theirs? It
:45:12. > :45:17.might sound like something out of the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, but
:45:17. > :45:23.it is part one idea known as nudging. There is a whole unit in
:45:23. > :45:33.Number Ten dedicated to saving money using persuasion techniques.
:45:33. > :45:34.
:45:34. > :45:39.Sounds ominous. The UK is exporting nudging, with offices in Australia
:45:39. > :45:45.working with the Government team. I am joined by Grant Shapps. How does
:45:45. > :45:49.that work, sending a text message? What do they say about getting
:45:50. > :45:56.people to pay fines and file tax returns? Did they say, please,
:45:56. > :46:01.please, please? Yes, essentially. It is a way of nudging people into
:46:01. > :46:08.paying something that is outstanding. It's harder to ignore,
:46:09. > :46:13.even perhaps than a red letter. It's an interesting idea, when you
:46:13. > :46:18.think a bailiff's letter, with implicit threats and turning up at
:46:18. > :46:21.the door would be more effective? You would think so, it must get to
:46:21. > :46:27.the point when bailiffs would be more effective. But I think this
:46:27. > :46:30.has saved a lot of visits from bailiffs, about �30 million it is
:46:30. > :46:34.projected to save. This is one small thing that the unit has been
:46:34. > :46:38.doing. It's based on a theory called nudging, as you said. A lot
:46:38. > :46:40.of people might have read a book on the same subject. We turned out to
:46:40. > :46:44.be the only government and the world that has looked at this, put
:46:44. > :46:48.it into place and used it in policy development and actually trying to
:46:48. > :46:51.do things like change people's behaviour. Today, there is a big
:46:51. > :46:55.announcement on pensions and enrolment. That is also part of
:46:55. > :46:59.this. That would be an ideal part of the so-called nudging?
:46:59. > :47:04.Suggesting things to people up front, rather than waiting. I was
:47:04. > :47:07.involved in an energy conference and there was somebody from the
:47:07. > :47:10.United Number Ten who said one of the problems they had was trying to
:47:11. > :47:16.persuade people to change their ways in terms of saving energy.
:47:16. > :47:22.Loft insulation, a big campaign by the Government, that has not worked.
:47:22. > :47:27.Why is that? It should make perfect sense, your bills are lower and
:47:27. > :47:30.your house is warmer. Andy while offering subsidies? He s, and yet
:47:30. > :47:36.people are still not doing it. What we found is that if you said to
:47:36. > :47:39.people, actually, we will come and sort your loft out in the process,
:47:39. > :47:45.you get a free loft spring-clean, it got people giving it. It was
:47:45. > :47:51.actually just the offer of it being hassle-free. It turned out not to
:47:51. > :47:55.be... They didn't have to make the cost in the first place? Further to
:47:55. > :47:59.that, even if you are charging people, the fact it is a simple
:47:59. > :48:03.service that makes it possible and people are wanting to do it. It's
:48:03. > :48:07.much less to do with economics than traditional government would
:48:07. > :48:10.traditionally think. You normally think, or for somebody something of
:48:10. > :48:14.financial value and they will jump at it. The answer to a lot of this
:48:14. > :48:17.nudging stuff, a lot of it, is that people will respond to things when
:48:17. > :48:21.they think other people are doing it. You mention things that your
:48:22. > :48:25.neighbours are doing. That's an incentive to do it yourself.
:48:25. > :48:30.Changing people's behaviour has only worked on things like paying
:48:30. > :48:33.your fine, as a reminder. Has it changed their behaviour
:48:34. > :48:39.permanently? You will have to do it again. So it's failing to change
:48:39. > :48:42.the way people behave. It is not changing social norms? We know that
:48:42. > :48:47.this unit has generated something like 20 times the amount it cost to
:48:47. > :48:51.run it. It's been very successful. It will continue and be exported to
:48:51. > :48:57.Australia. Simple examples in housing policy, we relaunched the
:48:57. > :49:00.right to buy. Using the nudging you did, we worked out that people
:49:00. > :49:04.wanted to find out what their friends and neighbours were doing.
:49:04. > :49:08.Then there were much more likely to use the right to buy themselves.
:49:08. > :49:12.it a good thing? I find it difficult to get past the language.
:49:12. > :49:18.It's very much like something out of the thick of it, the idea of
:49:18. > :49:22.being nudged by somebody's unit! It was Steve Holton's baby. The fact
:49:22. > :49:31.it is not being swept under the carpet, does that signal that he is
:49:31. > :49:35.coming back? He never left! I would not check his travel arrangements
:49:35. > :49:40.for off the back of this, but it is a serious project. It is starting
:49:40. > :49:43.to save large amounts of cash in government. The �200 million will
:49:43. > :49:52.be attributed to this from the work that has already been done. It is
:49:52. > :49:56.another small thing. You can laugh at it and say, that does not matter,
:49:56. > :50:00.or you can see that other governments are interested.
:50:00. > :50:05.much are you going to make from selling it abroad? That is a nifty
:50:05. > :50:09.idea. It would be useful. The unit is run out of Downing Street. This
:50:09. > :50:13.would enable extra people to come and work for it. There are 11
:50:13. > :50:17.people there at the moment. It's a job creation service? It will
:50:17. > :50:21.create more employment, if you put it that way, but it means we can do
:50:21. > :50:27.more domestic work as well. Tell us about the countdown clock. The
:50:27. > :50:30.countdown clock to the 2015 election? Is this part of your
:50:30. > :50:35.Nanjing? Is it you nudging your staff? I would not mention it to
:50:35. > :50:41.any other audience other than the Daily Politics. There are 958 days
:50:41. > :50:45.to go until the next General Election. I said in Central Office,
:50:45. > :50:49.put that clock up to remind us that is the deadline, the goal, maybe
:50:49. > :50:54.quicken our pace. Are you going to have other bench marks between now
:50:54. > :50:59.and does 958 days? I suspect there will be a lot of them along the way.
:50:59. > :51:04.It is just to focus people's minds. Maybe we could do with one of those.
:51:04. > :51:09.We can't see them, because they are all the wrong time! Steve Hilton is
:51:09. > :51:15.coming back, but not to Downing Street? He's working for you?
:51:15. > :51:18.but he's not coming back to Downing Street. Chairman of the Tory party,
:51:18. > :51:21.see, you learn things about your own party.
:51:21. > :51:24.We like to offer something new two- hour viewers. It's a sort of
:51:24. > :51:27.matchmaking service for the politically confused. As he watched
:51:27. > :51:32.the great and the good of Westminster tripping through Aller
:51:32. > :51:38.Studios, you may have wondered, amide left-wing, am I right wing,
:51:38. > :51:47.none of the above? We decided to kick off with Richard D North, to
:51:47. > :51:50.go for as his top five tips for At five, the small state. Richard
:51:50. > :51:56.thinks that the Government should provide the army and the police,
:51:56. > :52:01.but not much else. At four, the Anglo-American. He says trust
:52:01. > :52:06.Britain and the States over France and Germany. At three, be an
:52:06. > :52:10.elitist. Celebrate the top people in society. Everyone, that is, but
:52:10. > :52:16.the liberal elite! At two practice tough love. Teachers should not
:52:16. > :52:20.sugar coat the truth, he says. Don't like it? Tough! Number one,
:52:20. > :52:27.love capitalism. He says businesses and banks are the best hope and
:52:28. > :52:32.Richard is with us now. He has written a book that gives readers
:52:32. > :52:39.ideas about how to be a right- winger. What makes you right-wing?
:52:39. > :52:44.A bump on the head when young? The lure of the jackboot? Who knows.
:52:44. > :52:48.Reading the Economist when young, having a nice conservative father?
:52:48. > :52:55.Being in love with the British constitution? Being rather a anti-
:52:55. > :52:58.liberal, when the 60s came along with that kind of false hope that
:52:58. > :53:04.everything would be love. I thought it was a by-product of getting
:53:04. > :53:09.older and wiser? No, I was right wing a very long time ago. Unlike
:53:09. > :53:15.Toby. It says when you were a teenager you describe yourself as
:53:15. > :53:20.an anarchist? You were a green head panned? There is a real continuity
:53:20. > :53:28.between my punk anarchism and mind libertarian Toryism. Have you got
:53:28. > :53:33.any photographs? I've destroyed them! Did you move to the right
:53:33. > :53:37.from these days, as you got a mortgage, a wife, a family? You had
:53:37. > :53:41.to make a living in the world? not sure, in all seriousness, that
:53:41. > :53:45.it has been a movement. I was anti- state when I was a teenager and I
:53:45. > :53:49.am against the state now. I accept now that there has to be a minimal
:53:49. > :53:56.state, that anarchy would not work. But I have not drifted that far
:53:56. > :53:59.from my days as an anarchist. love with a very good state, I am
:53:59. > :54:04.an love with a representative democracy that produces an elitist
:54:04. > :54:09.government, one mandated by the people in a sensible way. I'm in
:54:09. > :54:14.love worth the Big Society. But only if it includes firms in the
:54:14. > :54:17.concept of what Big Society is. I like the idea rob voluntary
:54:17. > :54:20.organisations. I don't believe they are going to run the world. I think
:54:20. > :54:25.that firms are going to be incredibly important in providing
:54:25. > :54:30.welfare. Shrinking the state, growing a wiser capitalism is part
:54:30. > :54:33.of the right-wing mix. It's terribly important to say that the
:54:33. > :54:38.right wing is deeply conflicted. A proper right-winger would wake up
:54:38. > :54:42.one morning and feel quite strongly authoritarian. The next morning,
:54:42. > :54:47.quite strongly libertarian. One morning quite strongly progressive.
:54:47. > :54:53.What capitalism can bring his progress. At the same time, in love
:54:53. > :54:57.with tradition. If you are not a conflicted right winger, you are no
:54:57. > :55:01.right wing of a tall, in my view, you're just a dunderhead.
:55:01. > :55:05.people that are right wing, are they privately ashamed? Absolutely.
:55:05. > :55:09.Partly they have been taught by generations of teachers that it is
:55:09. > :55:12.a nasty business. It includes Hitler and fascism. It is
:55:13. > :55:16.fashionable, in the right, to say that these were creatures of the
:55:16. > :55:21.Left, really. I don't think so. I think they were creatures of the
:55:21. > :55:25.matter right. The hard nationalist right? A particular kind of writer.
:55:25. > :55:29.There are many other kinds of right. Actually, I think we ought to
:55:29. > :55:36.accept that really, in a way, almost everybody is right-wing
:55:36. > :55:40.except when they are being self- consciously liberal and Labour.
:55:40. > :55:43.great intellectual at Peterhouse College, when people identify
:55:43. > :55:47.themselves as Conservative students he would say, are you Conservative
:55:47. > :55:54.because you believe in conservative values or because you believe in
:55:54. > :55:59.nothing? The correct answer was the second, not the first. It is
:55:59. > :56:04.certainly anti-utopianism. It does not necessarily mean that you are a
:56:04. > :56:08.Tory. You're not necessarily for faith, family and the flag. A
:56:08. > :56:11.right-winger, especially a Moreton Island young right-winger, I would
:56:11. > :56:16.say they are interested in globalisation, rather than Little
:56:16. > :56:21.England. So there isn't a model, it is rather complicated to say what
:56:21. > :56:25.is it to be right-wing? It's very tough. Unfortunately, the right-
:56:25. > :56:35.winger asked to see that the buck always stops with one. It is
:56:35. > :56:35.
:56:35. > :56:39.personal responsibility. Everything is one's fault, as a person. One is
:56:39. > :56:44.responsible for fixing everything, in a weird way. Not by using the
:56:44. > :56:51.state. Are you not a bit short of modern icons? The right in this
:56:51. > :56:55.country still appears Mrs Thatcher. She is the last right-wing icon. In
:56:55. > :57:00.the United States, the Republicans, it is Ronald Reagan, he is the one
:57:00. > :57:04.that they Riviere, still. That takes us back to the 80s. Here is
:57:04. > :57:12.the right-wing icon today? Keith Richard, maybe. Of the Rolling
:57:12. > :57:20.Stones? You are certainly right, granted, the right wing is very
:57:20. > :57:23.various. The ones that come to mind, handily, are Mrs Thatcher, a UKIP
:57:23. > :57:28.sort of person. That is actually a rather narrow conception of what
:57:28. > :57:33.right-wing is. Margaret Thatcher was incredibly important. Keith
:57:33. > :57:37.Joseph, another great teeth, incredibly important. Terribly
:57:38. > :57:42.unfashionable and cast as unpleasant, Enoch Powell. Do you
:57:42. > :57:46.think it is more fashionable now? Perhaps it was embarrassing to
:57:46. > :57:51.admit that you were right wing, for young people, it was not trendy?
:57:51. > :57:54.have just had a huge recession, banks have let us down, the
:57:54. > :58:01.leadership of capitalism has gone wrong. And yet I see no serious
:58:01. > :58:06.bark of leftism. Octopi is very interesting and quite charming. But
:58:06. > :58:11.it is hardly a great push of anti- capitalism from the young. There
:58:11. > :58:18.doesn't seem to be any intellectual resurgence on the left to match the
:58:19. > :58:22.intellectual firepower of the right of is it intellectual? Mr Obama
:58:22. > :58:26.looks to be re-elected in America, the polls at the moment suggest
:58:26. > :58:36.that Mr Miliband will be the next Prime Minister? Other than that,
:58:36. > :58:37.
:58:37. > :58:41.Great to talk to you, thank you for coming in. We will also do what it
:58:41. > :58:45.means to be a left-winger, your guide to being a Nazi... Just