:00:41. > :00:46.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the second Daily Politics Liberal
:00:46. > :00:50.Democrats Conference special. The full police transcript of gategate
:00:50. > :00:55.is published in the Telegraph and the pressure on the chief whip
:00:55. > :00:59.increases. Are wind farms worth the candle? The Chancellor is sceptical
:00:59. > :01:05.as are other Conservative ministers. We'll be asking the Lib Dem Energy
:01:05. > :01:08.Secretary whether his flagship green energy policy is imperilled.
:01:08. > :01:11.Abu Hamza is finally to be extradited to the United States.
:01:11. > :01:16.And it emerges this morning that the Queen voiced concern about why
:01:16. > :01:18.the radical cleric couldn't be banged up. We'll be talking to a
:01:18. > :01:28.Home Office minister Lib-Con or Lab-Lib, what flavour of coalition
:01:28. > :01:31.
:01:31. > :01:41.do activists in Brighton want after the next election? Do you want to
:01:41. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :01:53.do the balls this year? I will lend some money to your business bank.
:01:53. > :01:56.
:01:56. > :01:59.All that in the next hour. And with us for the duration, Tim Razzall, a
:01:59. > :02:05.Liberal Democrat peer and the party's former election supremo.
:02:05. > :02:08.Welcome to the show. We will be bringing all of the developments
:02:08. > :02:11.from the Conference in Brighton. But first let's return to Andrew
:02:11. > :02:20.Mitchell and the ongoing row about whether he did or didn't call the
:02:20. > :02:22.policemen in Downing Street plebs. Yes, you will recall that the chief
:02:22. > :02:27.whip publicly apologised yesterday for the incident, in which he got
:02:27. > :02:31.into a row with a policeman at the Downing Street gates. Well, the
:02:31. > :02:41.Daily Telegraph has got its hands on the police log of the incident
:02:41. > :02:54.
:02:54. > :02:59.and printed a full transcript in That was the account of the
:02:59. > :03:05.policemen. Well, I'm joined now by our political correspondent. Is it
:03:06. > :03:11.a full transcript? We do not have independent corroboration ourselves.
:03:11. > :03:17.It looks like a narrative account of what took place. In terms of
:03:17. > :03:25.whether it is the Bayton, it seems unlikely. In the original reporting
:03:25. > :03:31.of this, Mr Mitchell is supposed to have used the words -- the word,
:03:31. > :03:38.morons. Where does that come from? What is interesting is, how close
:03:38. > :03:44.he got to getting it, getting arrested. They were pretty cross.
:03:44. > :03:49.They had to warn him he could be arrested. That is when he pulled
:03:49. > :03:54.down, went to the side gate and went through. It seems they were
:03:54. > :03:58.concerned about what he might do next. He said you have not heard
:03:58. > :04:05.the last of this. That is where they wrote an account and scented
:04:05. > :04:11.up to their senior officers. -- that is why. Apparently he had had
:04:11. > :04:17.a stressful day. What does it consist of? He describes it as a
:04:17. > :04:24.long and frustrating day. Some suggestion that included a lunch at
:04:24. > :04:30.a club just around the corner from our studios. It is a swanky Indian
:04:30. > :04:35.restaurant. It is not cheap by any means. It is the main watering hole
:04:35. > :04:40.and eating establishment for the denizens of Westminster. Apparently,
:04:40. > :04:46.Downing Street said it was a lunch and not a long lunch. Read into
:04:46. > :04:53.that what you will! Thank you very much for that. The story will not
:04:53. > :04:57.die, will it? The British public must be losing the will to live. I
:04:57. > :05:00.think Andrew Mitchell has made the classic error. It you make a
:05:00. > :05:05.serious mistake, which it clearly was, you want to get a whole story
:05:05. > :05:09.out, exactly what you did on day one. Profusely apologised to the
:05:09. > :05:16.people involved, including the Prime Minister, and then the story
:05:16. > :05:23.will die. It drags on and on. What did he say? Did he say it? Did he
:05:23. > :05:27.lose - has never did he use the word, a moron? -- did he use the
:05:27. > :05:30.word, moron? Joining us from Brighton now are two of Fleet
:05:30. > :05:36.Street's finest - Alison Little of the Express and Steve Richards of
:05:36. > :05:42.the Independent. We have seen this surrounding row. Where does the
:05:42. > :05:47.story go from here, if anywhere? do not think Mr Mitchell is going
:05:47. > :05:52.anywhere right now. We have a stalemate was up the full account
:05:52. > :05:57.of the police blocked in the Daily Telegraph is compelling reading. It
:05:57. > :06:03.is written in classic police speak. It confirms what the police were
:06:03. > :06:08.saying about it. That is where we are stuck. I think this story will
:06:08. > :06:18.run and run. People cannot escape it. There are reports a Labour MP
:06:18. > :06:20.
:06:20. > :06:24.has written to the Commons Macro authorities. -- Commons authorities.
:06:24. > :06:32.David Cameron is off to the States was that he will not be able to
:06:32. > :06:36.escape it. He is on the Late Show in New York tomorrow night. I am
:06:36. > :06:43.sure the Americans will be absolutely fascinated to hear his
:06:43. > :06:49.definition of what is a pleb. And the Labour conference is coming up.
:06:49. > :06:55.They will love it. It will go up on and on. I may be going out on a
:06:55. > :07:00.limb but I do not think that David Letterman has heard of and to
:07:00. > :07:04.Mitchell. The establishment is meaning to close this down. --
:07:04. > :07:09.Andrew Mitchell. We have had the Cabinet Secretary calling the chief
:07:09. > :07:15.of police in London saying, let's draw a line under this and move on.
:07:15. > :07:18.Will that work? No. David Cameron has a real problem. He cannot sack
:07:18. > :07:23.Mitchell on the evidence that is available so far and will be wrong
:07:23. > :07:28.to do so. We have not got definitive proof of what was said.
:07:28. > :07:32.However, he has now got the Chief Whip in charge of telling MPs not
:07:32. > :07:36.to rock the boat in the Parliamentary Party when he himself
:07:36. > :07:41.has rocked the boat. It is like a spin doctor when they become the
:07:41. > :07:45.story. When the Chief Whip becomes a story, it is very difficult. In a
:07:45. > :07:50.way he has the worst of all worlds. He would be wrong to get rid of him
:07:50. > :07:55.at the moment but he has a damaged chief whip at a time when his
:07:55. > :08:01.Parliamentary Party is restive. It is a story with consequences, as
:08:01. > :08:08.well as legs. Let's come on to Vince Cable. He had his big speech
:08:08. > :08:14.yesterday. All sort of analysis in the papers. Do we agree if, and I
:08:14. > :08:19.emphasise that word, if there was a leadership challenge to Nick Clegg,
:08:19. > :08:29.or his leadership was to be in jeopardy, is Vince Cable the clear
:08:29. > :08:30.
:08:30. > :08:37.favourite to succeed him? I am just trying to think. Vince Cable has
:08:37. > :08:43.the advantage of being one of the few politicians that members of the
:08:43. > :08:48.public, they know who he is. They would easily identify him. He would
:08:48. > :08:56.have to be in the front. They raise another man, about six feet away
:08:56. > :09:04.from me, Mister Ed Davey, who is being talked about as another
:09:04. > :09:13.possible challenger. When a leadership contest actually happens,
:09:13. > :09:18.and a do not think we are near that yet, suddenly all the contenders...
:09:18. > :09:23.I think Vince Cable is the clear favourite. What is happening now is
:09:23. > :09:27.the opinion polls are always asking the Lib Dem rating if specifically
:09:27. > :09:33.Vince Cable where to take over and no one else was up that will carry
:09:33. > :09:39.on. Although there are no signs, as you pointed out of a challenge, if
:09:39. > :09:43.the polls are as they are after the May elections, it would become a
:09:43. > :09:49.very different. The Poles are suggesting that Vince Cable would
:09:49. > :09:59.make a positive difference. It could become very potent indeed.
:09:59. > :10:00.
:10:00. > :10:10.The latest show that voting road race. Another poll put it higher. -
:10:10. > :10:11.
:10:11. > :10:14.- voting would raise. Thank you for joining us. Now, the Liberal
:10:14. > :10:17.Democrats like to talk up their influence on government policy -
:10:17. > :10:25.the pupil premium, changes to NHS reforms and helping to make the
:10:25. > :10:28.Coalition live up to its claim to be the greenest government ever.
:10:29. > :10:32.That is what Mr Cameron once claimed it would be. The chief
:10:32. > :10:35.cheerleader for this policy is the Energy and Climate Change Secretary,
:10:35. > :10:38.Ed Davey, who I will be speaking to in a moment. When he addressed
:10:38. > :10:41.conference at the weekend, he re- affirmed his commitment to the
:10:41. > :10:49.green economy but the Lib Dems suspect their Coalition partners
:10:49. > :10:53.don't have their hearts in going green any more. Here is Jo. The
:10:53. > :10:55.coalition used to be a big fan of windmills, part of its promise to
:10:55. > :10:58.be the greenest government ever, and Lib Dem Energy Secretary Ed
:10:58. > :11:01.Davey is still firmly behind tough emissions-cutting targets. But
:11:01. > :11:04.George Osborne has taken the wind out of his sails by repeatedly
:11:04. > :11:07.warning that too much environmental red tape risks putting our country
:11:07. > :11:09.out of business, while a leaked letter suggests the Chancellor
:11:09. > :11:16.favours generating electricity with gas instead of more expensive
:11:16. > :11:18.nuclear or renewable fuels. And power suppliers have said that new
:11:19. > :11:28.energy regulations are partly to blame for high average fuel bills,
:11:28. > :11:32.which have risen from �522 back in 2004 to �1,252 this year. Ed Davey
:11:32. > :11:35.also has a new Energy Minister, the Conservative John Hayes, who is a
:11:35. > :11:39.known critic of wind power. And, at the weekend, Mr Davey suggested he
:11:39. > :11:49.was fighting a battle with the TEA Party tendency in the coalition, in
:11:49. > :11:53.
:11:53. > :11:59.reference to the right-wing As if by magic, Ed Davey joins me
:12:00. > :12:04.from Brighton. Thank you for joining us. At the weekend, you
:12:04. > :12:11.talked about the Tory TEA Party tendency, which did not want to
:12:11. > :12:15.spend money on green power. Who were you thinking of? There are a
:12:15. > :12:19.number of people on the Conservative backbenchers, who have
:12:20. > :12:24.never believed that climate change is an issue. They have always
:12:24. > :12:28.opposed the green agenda. I believe we need to stand up to that. The
:12:28. > :12:32.Prime Minister made it very clear by making sure that when he was
:12:32. > :12:38.opposition leader that the Conservative Party voted for the
:12:38. > :12:42.climate change at an George Osborne campaign when he was running the
:12:42. > :12:47.election campaign. We agreed this will be the greenest government
:12:47. > :12:53.ever. I want to deliver on the Government's strategy. I do not
:12:53. > :12:58.believe the noises off should be listened to. It is not just
:12:58. > :13:03.Conservative backbenchers. John Hayes is part of the TEA Party
:13:03. > :13:09.tendency when it comes to green issues, isn't it? He told BBC News
:13:09. > :13:13.in 2009 that renewable energy needs to pass the Twin Towers of
:13:13. > :13:19.environmental and economic sustainability and win power fails
:13:19. > :13:24.on both accounts. -- wind power. He is part of your TEA Party, isn't
:13:24. > :13:30.he? I worked with him when I was a minister in the Department for
:13:30. > :13:34.business. We got on incredibly well. I am delighted he is a minister in
:13:34. > :13:41.my department. We are working through a whole range of major
:13:41. > :13:47.reform issues. When they study the evidence, I am sure they will see
:13:47. > :13:52.that renewables can be very cost effective and critically important
:13:52. > :13:57.for the carbonised in our economy and meeting Climate Change targets.
:13:57. > :14:01.What you stand for and what you believe cannot be the same as Mr
:14:01. > :14:08.Hayes saying, wind power fails on both accounts. You do not agree
:14:08. > :14:12.with that. He said it. He said it in 2009. I'm sure that when he is
:14:12. > :14:17.in the department he will look at the evidence. You mean he had not
:14:17. > :14:20.looked before. I do not know whether he looked before. I have
:14:20. > :14:26.noticed. When you are a minister, you look at the huge detail and
:14:26. > :14:31.learnt a lot. The evidence is very clear. Onshore wind is the most
:14:31. > :14:35.cost-effective but mass renewable technology we have today. Therefore,
:14:35. > :14:39.the Treasury believes that. They understand if we are to take care
:14:39. > :14:49.of consume energy bills and meet renewable energy targets, onshore
:14:49. > :14:49.
:14:49. > :14:55.wind is a very said none of -- is sensible technology to invest in
:14:55. > :15:00.there. There was a study, comparing it with other countries and their
:15:00. > :15:08.renewable energy strategies. The conclusion says, by 2020, your
:15:08. > :15:13.renewable policies will have added �28 per megawatt hour to business -
:15:13. > :15:23.energy intensive business - compared to �15 in France and
:15:23. > :15:26.
:15:26. > :15:28.Germany. You are making it more I have been working with the
:15:28. > :15:32.Department of business because of France and Germany support their
:15:32. > :15:40.energy intensive businesses in a way that we don't. We don't want to
:15:40. > :15:45.make those businesses here uncompetitive. The real thing...
:15:45. > :15:51.what is but answer? The real thing I am working with Vince Cable on is
:15:51. > :15:55.this huge economic opportunity, the green growth opportunity. The
:15:55. > :16:04.Chancellor has made clear it Infrastructure Investment it is a
:16:04. > :16:07.key part of growth strategy. Over half, around a half of them are
:16:07. > :16:13.National Infrastructure Plan is energy investment, or six times
:16:13. > :16:20.more than water. Investment here is critical to the growth strategy,
:16:20. > :16:23.and I believe it will deliver on the green agenda as well. We have a
:16:23. > :16:31.situation where our economic needs and environmental needs are coming
:16:31. > :16:36.together. The green sector is the fastest sector. More international
:16:36. > :16:42.investment in renewables than any other sector last year. This is a
:16:42. > :16:45.big British economic success story. For every job you think you are
:16:45. > :16:51.creating largely by subsidies in the Green economy, we don't know
:16:51. > :16:56.how many you are destroying in the non green economy. If British
:16:56. > :17:01.electricity prices for business are going to be rising twice as fast as
:17:01. > :17:06.France or Germany, you are going to put some of these businesses out of
:17:07. > :17:12.business. We have lost the aluminium industry, what is next?
:17:12. > :17:17.did not agree with your analysis. This is from the report. We are
:17:17. > :17:23.determined to make sure that the energy bills of business and
:17:23. > :17:28.consumers are affordable. I will be in that in this week ways to help
:17:28. > :17:35.consumers with energy bills. The real problem is the rising price of
:17:35. > :17:42.gas. Rising extremely in recent years, as your programme showed. It
:17:42. > :17:47.has hit consumers. Gas is used for electricity generation. To make
:17:47. > :17:53.sure we are less dependent on gas, less exposed to volatile fossil
:17:53. > :17:57.fuel prices from a broad, we need to make sure we can produce cleaner
:17:57. > :18:02.energy hear it in the UK to reduce out exposure to international
:18:02. > :18:06.fossil fuel prices, meaning we are less dependent upon energy from the
:18:07. > :18:13.other side of the world. That will improve affordability for
:18:13. > :18:19.businesses, and energy security. It is a sensible approach. It means we
:18:19. > :18:25.can have a diverse energy mix. Some say you should only do one
:18:25. > :18:29.particular technology. I believe we need a basket approach to minimise
:18:29. > :18:36.risk and cost for the British economy. There are reports at the
:18:36. > :18:42.weekend, your secret plot to get the Lib Dem leadership. It is so
:18:42. > :18:47.secret I have not heard about it! I am delighted to have yet another
:18:47. > :18:52.opportunity to deny that story, it is complete nonsense. You have not
:18:52. > :19:00.gone on a special new diet because you wait too many pies when you
:19:00. > :19:10.were in the pie factory! The many years ago. I take that sort of
:19:10. > :19:13.
:19:13. > :19:17.story with a picture of a salt -- pinch.
:19:17. > :19:21.Maybe you should be standing for leadership, would you consider
:19:21. > :19:27.being Liberal Democrat leader? have the best Liberal Democrat
:19:27. > :19:34.leader we have ever had. I am immensely proud... Better than that
:19:34. > :19:39.Lloyd George? He was a Liberal leader. Nick Clegg would measure up
:19:39. > :19:45.well to Lloyd George, our most successful party leader for decades,
:19:45. > :19:52.doing an incredibly difficult job, brilliantly. This leadership talk
:19:52. > :20:00.the media love to focus on, it is not kicking off here in conference.
:20:00. > :20:04.There is not a single MP you have found against Nick Clegg. We are a
:20:04. > :20:10.united party. You should be asking the other parties how well they are
:20:10. > :20:16.united. We will, that is our job. If Nick Clegg is doing such a
:20:16. > :20:23.brilliant job, why do the polls show him as the least popular party
:20:23. > :20:29.leader since Michael Foot? Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrats are
:20:29. > :20:34.not doing well in the polls. But some show he is doing better, you
:20:34. > :20:39.tend not to report those. It is amazing how people can be selective
:20:39. > :20:45.in the evidence they use. When I am in my constituency, talking to
:20:45. > :20:52.people, they do need to understand why we have taken the measures we
:20:52. > :20:59.have, while we had no choice but to make sure we had stable government
:20:59. > :21:05.mess. When people hear that, they are very receptive to the overall
:21:05. > :21:08.Liberal Democrat achievements. I do not deny we have to make the case,
:21:08. > :21:17.but we are making the case in Brighton, Nick Clegg will do so in
:21:17. > :21:24.his speech tomorrow. We are already taking two million of the lowest
:21:24. > :21:34.paid out of tax, giving tax cuts, that is a strong message to go to
:21:34. > :21:40.
:21:40. > :21:45.the election. Do you see his chances as leader
:21:45. > :21:51.one day? What the two correspondent said
:21:51. > :22:00.earlier is bright, two different scenarios, be fought under a bus,
:22:00. > :22:04.if something terrible happened to my clerk. -- Nick Clegg. If we go
:22:04. > :22:12.through it and ordered process, there will be all sorts of
:22:12. > :22:18.candidates. Vince Cable is clearly the favourite.
:22:18. > :22:23.He is the best known. In many ways, he is, when you look at the polls,
:22:23. > :22:29.he is the only Liberal Democrat Member that the public recognise.
:22:29. > :22:34.Mind you, they don't recognise Tory Cabinet members either. Apart from
:22:34. > :22:42.Andrew Mitchell. That always depresses politicians that nobody
:22:42. > :22:48.knows who you are. Now, our last guest Ed Davey,
:22:48. > :22:53.revealed earlier this year that he worked in a factory as a teenager.
:22:53. > :23:03.But what did it make? Was it: a) Pork barrels? B) Pork sausages? C)
:23:03. > :23:03.
:23:03. > :23:07.Pork pies? D) Pork scratchings? At the end of the show, Tim Razzall
:23:07. > :23:10.will attempt to give us the correct answer.
:23:10. > :23:13.Now, it's taken more than eight years, cost the tax payer millions
:23:13. > :23:17.of pounds, and even the Queen has expressed her concerns. But finally,
:23:17. > :23:20.radical cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri is to be deported to the US. The
:23:20. > :23:24.European Court of Human Rights has refused his final appeal, and that
:23:24. > :23:28.of four other terrorist suspects. And the Home Office say he will now
:23:28. > :23:35.be sent to the United States to face charges of setting up a
:23:35. > :23:42.terrorist training camp there. I'm joined now by Home Office Minister
:23:42. > :23:48.James Brokenshire. Abu Hamza was first arrested in made 2004. Why
:23:48. > :23:53.has it taken eight years? There has been a very long process
:23:53. > :23:58.attached to extradition, seeking to extradite a British citizen to
:23:58. > :24:06.another country. All lines of Appeal have now been exhausted and
:24:06. > :24:13.the decision by the European Court of Appeal has decided. We will move
:24:13. > :24:20.rapidly towards his practical extradition and handing over to the
:24:20. > :24:24.US authorities. How rapidly? next step is for the police and US
:24:24. > :24:29.marshals to deal with the logistics on the transfer of these
:24:29. > :24:33.individuals to the US authorities. By the end of the week? It is
:24:33. > :24:37.working through the practical arrangements. We are working
:24:37. > :24:42.closely, discussions this morning between officials, to see this does
:24:42. > :24:48.happen, recognising this has gone on for a long time. You must be
:24:48. > :24:54.able to say if it is within days or weeks? It will be a short matter of
:24:54. > :24:58.weeks, we hope it will be sooner than that, in terms of sorting out
:24:58. > :25:04.the practicalities, handing these individuals over to the US
:25:04. > :25:09.authorities, to face serious terrorist allegations. The public
:25:09. > :25:14.will also say, how much has it cost? There obviously is cost
:25:14. > :25:21.attached to any legal process, running into hundreds of thousands
:25:21. > :25:26.of Pounds, maybe even more than that. But the key points, we have
:25:26. > :25:32.an arrangement with the US that it is reciprocal. They will meet the
:25:32. > :25:37.cost of the extradition in respect of a case such as this. It must be
:25:37. > :25:42.more than hundreds of thousands? can't give you a figure, but Click
:25:42. > :25:48.it will be considerable. The arrangements we have, those costs
:25:48. > :25:53.will be met by the US authorities. If an extradition request is given
:25:54. > :25:58.to the UK, we consider that properly, there is a process. That
:25:58. > :26:04.has been exhausted and we want to move on and see these people handed
:26:04. > :26:10.to the US authorities. There is a campaign under way for private
:26:10. > :26:16.prosecutions for those people to be tried here? The Director of Public
:26:16. > :26:19.Prosecutions has looked at the evidence over an extended period.
:26:19. > :26:27.Looking at the human rights issues, with reference to the European
:26:27. > :26:33.Court. Our view is that the appeals have been exhausted. Ultimately,
:26:33. > :26:36.decisions over prosecution and not made by me as a minister, but by
:26:36. > :26:40.the Director of Public Prosecutions, and in this case, it has been
:26:40. > :26:47.considered, appropriately, that extradition should be the right way
:26:47. > :26:53.forward. We have heard campaigners, because the crimes were committed
:26:53. > :26:58.here, running a jihadist website, that he should be tried here.
:26:58. > :27:05.DPP has determined prosecution is not a probate in respect to these
:27:05. > :27:09.cases. Is there a worried they might be able to? We believe this
:27:09. > :27:12.matter has been looked at by the courts over such an extended pit
:27:12. > :27:17.that now is the time to say we should move on with a magician and
:27:17. > :27:23.these individuals should be handed over and face the serious terrorist
:27:24. > :27:30.allegations levelled against them. What can you learn from the fact it
:27:30. > :27:39.has taken eight years? The public are quite curious as to why these
:27:39. > :27:44.extradition procedures take so long. Abu Hamza is high profile. This is
:27:44. > :27:49.the sort of case the treaty was intended to cover. There is
:27:49. > :27:53.controversy when it is being used for alleged financial crimes. This
:27:53. > :27:57.applies within Europe, there are a lot of people, when there is an
:27:57. > :28:04.attempt to extradite people to look, where a huge amount of time takes
:28:04. > :28:12.place. Is it right? I do not think it is right, certainly not within
:28:12. > :28:18.the European Union. Not only do we know that Andrew
:28:18. > :28:28.Mitchell had lunch that day, we know what he had. Roasted fish with
:28:28. > :28:32.
:28:32. > :28:38.spiced crab, chutney, �9.50. King prawns and Rice, �24. You get the
:28:38. > :28:42.big stories! Absurd. Liberal Democrats are in government
:28:42. > :28:45.for the first time since dinosaurs roamed the Earth. So, why the long
:28:46. > :28:50.faces from some Lib Dem activists? Could it be that some aren't so
:28:50. > :28:52.delighted about being in bed with the Conservatives? So, what if, as
:28:52. > :28:56.Vince Cable suggested in his speech yesterday, we're heading for
:28:56. > :29:00.another hung parliament after the next election? Who should Lib Dems
:29:00. > :29:08.do a deal with? Labour or Conservative? We sent Adam out with
:29:08. > :29:12.his mood box in Brighton. Today we are asking delegates who
:29:12. > :29:20.they would like to share power with a If the next election results in a
:29:20. > :29:24.hung Parliament? It has got to be Labour. Because we have already
:29:24. > :29:32.been in coalition with the Tories and it is sensible to show we can
:29:32. > :29:39.do both. Tories, because Labour screwed up the country so much last
:29:39. > :29:45.time. We are good as we are. Certainly not the Tories. I guess I
:29:45. > :29:52.will put it in Labour are being the least worst. Very optimistic!
:29:52. > :30:01.not trust either of them as far as I can throw them, so I do not know.
:30:01. > :30:11.Your ideal coalition arrangement? Greens. Wouldn't that be about 57
:30:11. > :30:20.MPs? Challenging, why not? would you rather be in coalition
:30:20. > :30:25.with at the next election if it is a hung Parliament? What message are
:30:25. > :30:35.you sending? It is not about coalition but about being in power
:30:35. > :30:42.
:30:42. > :30:50.It is going pretty slowly. Do you want to do the Paul's this year? I
:30:50. > :30:58.will lend some money to your business bank will stop -- ate your
:30:58. > :31:07.business bank. Is it tricky? Who is your preferred coalition partner?
:31:07. > :31:17.Can I have two balls? Ministers are allowed to vote. I am scrupulously
:31:17. > :31:17.
:31:17. > :31:22.impartial. Who is your preferred coalition partner next time around?
:31:23. > :31:29.I am not doing it on camera. As a minister, you have to juggle many
:31:29. > :31:35.balls. You might say, I could not possibly comment. I would rather
:31:35. > :31:42.stick pins in my eyes then go with Labour. We do not have a preferred
:31:42. > :31:48.coalition partner. That was absolutely exhausting. The majority
:31:48. > :31:54.of them have gone in that direction - towards Labour. I just like to
:31:54. > :31:59.get MPs to say balls. That is what it is all about. And our guest of
:31:59. > :32:04.the day, Lord Razzall, is still with me. Adam was struggling with
:32:04. > :32:11.his balls. What should the election strategy be for the Lib Dems in
:32:11. > :32:14.2015? There are a number of things. We will stand as an independent
:32:14. > :32:24.party. It will not be on the faces we will commit to be in coalition
:32:24. > :32:27.
:32:27. > :32:37.with another party. -- on the basis. We will stand on the basis of the
:32:37. > :32:38.
:32:38. > :32:41.list of things we want to achieve. -- a list of things. Do you agree
:32:41. > :32:49.with the former director of strategy that list should represent
:32:49. > :32:53.what he calls a brand of radical liberalism? Yes. Which is?
:32:53. > :33:00.sorts of things. What sort of policy would you expect in that
:33:00. > :33:07.list? We will have a huge element on the green agenda. There will be
:33:07. > :33:13.quite a lot on the schools system. Backing free schools? Probably not
:33:13. > :33:18.prominent. I think there will be huge stuff on the economy. There is
:33:18. > :33:24.bound to be. We will not be out of the economic problems at the moment
:33:24. > :33:34.by 2015. What would the radical liberalism side of that be? We will
:33:34. > :33:43.be more Keynesian going into the election than the Tories. So you do
:33:43. > :33:48.not agree with something more to the right. I am not sure that is
:33:48. > :33:52.the sort of thing you take into a coalition discussion. Because it
:33:52. > :33:56.would alienate potential Lib Dem voters on the left? You certainly
:33:56. > :34:04.do not fight an election campaign on the basis you would bash public
:34:04. > :34:10.sector workers. Nobody is going to advocate that. He was a close
:34:10. > :34:16.former director of strategy. He did not run the elections. So, he is
:34:16. > :34:23.wrong. The sort of thing he has been talking about - backing free
:34:23. > :34:28.schools, taking on vested interests - that will not win it. That sounds
:34:28. > :34:33.like Tony Blair. You think that will damage the Liberal Democrats?
:34:33. > :34:40.It is a question of emphasis. Taking on vested interests, I
:34:40. > :34:46.cannot quite see how that will play out in an election slogan. That is
:34:46. > :34:53.a long-term issue, which people will address in government, if
:34:53. > :34:57.there is a further coalition government. I do not think it is
:34:57. > :35:01.positioning for the party. Where should the Liberal Democrats'
:35:01. > :35:07.position themselves? If they go to some of the things that will appeal
:35:07. > :35:13.to soft Tory voters, bearing in mind they will fight a lot of
:35:13. > :35:21.marginals, they will risk losing those seats where they are in
:35:21. > :35:27.marginal seats with Labour. As a party, we have lost those who vote
:35:27. > :35:31.for us as a protest. We have lost them. The question is, can we
:35:31. > :35:36.attract voters who did not vote for us because they thought it was a
:35:36. > :35:43.wasted vote? That will be the real trick at the next election. To what
:35:43. > :35:53.extent the protest vote can be replaced, by those who said they
:35:53. > :35:54.
:35:54. > :36:02.would not vote for us because we had no chance. I think at this
:36:02. > :36:08.stage, to end a half years and out, you never know with the polls. --
:36:08. > :36:16.two and a half years. There is an internal documents, which was
:36:16. > :36:21.prepared by Lib Dem people for the Office of Nick Clegg. It says, the
:36:21. > :36:24.party has no branding strategy. Staff lack research literacy.
:36:24. > :36:30.Campaigns are based on received wisdom, rather than any evidence
:36:30. > :36:37.that current tactics are working. Is that true? I have not seen it.
:36:37. > :36:43.What is your reaction? I do not agree. It says the Lib Dems were we
:36:43. > :36:51.have no evidence our tactics are working. Do you? I think we are far
:36:51. > :36:53.too way out of the election. We have the fixed-term parliament
:36:53. > :36:57.there of the stock having gone into the first serious peacetime
:36:57. > :37:06.coalition since the 1930s, you need five years to show coalition
:37:06. > :37:11.government can work in this way. -- fixed term Parliament Bill. Beware
:37:11. > :37:21.if you've got your money stashed away in Liechtenstein. It is a
:37:21. > :37:22.
:37:22. > :37:25.little place between Switzerland and Austria will start --
:37:25. > :37:28.Switzerland and Austria. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny
:37:28. > :37:32.Alexander, has his eye on it. He's just been speaking to conference
:37:32. > :37:42.and has promised a major crackdown on tax-dodgers which could raise �4
:37:42. > :37:43.
:37:43. > :37:49.billion a year for the Treasury. Fellow plebs, Viscount Thurso, I
:37:49. > :37:55.would like to talk to you. In fact, our conference slogan, fairer taxes
:37:55. > :38:00.in tough times. Thanks to the Liberal Democrats, taxes of getting
:38:00. > :38:06.fairer. Our tough budget negotiations mean that next year 24
:38:06. > :38:09.million people will benefit from the largest ever increase in the
:38:09. > :38:15.tax-free amount. From April, working people will have seen net
:38:15. > :38:25.income tax bill fall by �550 and 2 million of the lowest earners will
:38:25. > :38:29.have ceased to have paid any income tax at all. That is happening.
:38:29. > :38:35.Thanks. That is happening thanks to the Liberal Democrats in a
:38:36. > :38:44.coalition government. It would not be happening without you. Not
:38:44. > :38:49.everything about the budget Bishop was perfect. -- the budget this
:38:49. > :38:59.year. Junior church was getting married a few weeks after the
:38:59. > :39:04.budget in Cornwall. -- Junior Church. I made sure her prospective
:39:04. > :39:14.husband did not have a taste for pasties but I will still think of
:39:14. > :39:14.
:39:14. > :39:19.that as four U-turns and a wedding! The income tax cut was by far the
:39:19. > :39:23.most important measure in the budget. People in this country will
:39:23. > :39:27.have �3 billion more of their own money to spend next year as a
:39:27. > :39:35.result. A cleaner working full-time on the minimum wage will see their
:39:35. > :39:40.tax bill Haft. That is thanks to the Liberal Democrats. -- reduced
:39:40. > :39:50.by half. Very soon, no one will pay income tax at all until they're
:39:50. > :39:51.
:39:52. > :39:57.earning more than �10,000. That is thanks to the Liberal Democrats. We
:39:57. > :40:02.promised it in our manifesto. We campaign for it. We had the courage
:40:02. > :40:09.to go into coalition to deliver it. At the next election, we will
:40:10. > :40:14.promise to raise that figure yet further, to �12.5 million. You do
:40:14. > :40:23.not pay more income tax until you are earning more than a full-time
:40:23. > :40:27.salary on the minimum wage. In 2015, people will know that promise is
:40:27. > :40:33.credible. That is because we have delivered in government, thanks to
:40:33. > :40:39.the Liberal Democrats - truly a record of action and the promise of
:40:39. > :40:44.more. Now, it's fair taxes matter because times are tough. The
:40:44. > :40:49.spending power of most people's pay packets have fallen over the last
:40:49. > :40:54.five years. For too many, the spectre of unemployment has become
:40:54. > :40:58.a painful reality. For the country as a whole, the adjustment to the
:40:58. > :41:02.level of government spending and taxation we can afford is painful
:41:02. > :41:07.and difficult. When we came into office, we knew things were bad.
:41:07. > :41:13.The truth is, we did not know how bad. The damage that the crisis has
:41:13. > :41:18.done to our economy is even deeper than we first thought. The head
:41:18. > :41:22.wins of high inflation and the eurozone are stronger than anyone
:41:22. > :41:30.imagines. The mess Labour left worse than they would ever admit -
:41:30. > :41:35.let alone apologise for. Now, having heard all of that, you might
:41:35. > :41:39.think I am pessimistic. He could not be more wrong. We have a
:41:39. > :41:45.government determined to do the right thing for the long term. Over
:41:45. > :41:50.the last two years, we have laid strong foundations for a stronger
:41:50. > :41:54.economy. I am fundamentally optimistic for the future. Because
:41:54. > :41:58.there are brilliant businesses - talented and hard-working people in
:41:58. > :42:07.every corner of this country - who make this one of the best places to
:42:07. > :42:12.do business in the world. Like the members of the Bristol Junior
:42:12. > :42:15.Chamber of Commerce, who I met with our brilliant mayoral candidate on
:42:15. > :42:19.Thursday, enthusing about the opportunities for young people to
:42:19. > :42:27.start their own businesses. Like the small manufacturing company I
:42:27. > :42:31.visited in Cardiff with our inspiring election candidate. A
:42:31. > :42:36.business that has grown and is providing much-needed jobs in the
:42:36. > :42:40.local area, like the massive chemicals plant I visited in Redcar.
:42:40. > :42:50.It is growing with the help of a Regional Growth Fund grant. These
:42:50. > :42:57.people are the growth makers, the job makers. Our job is to help them.
:42:57. > :43:04.Last year, at this conference, I announced the growing places and.
:43:04. > :43:09.This is to fund local areas to unlock new jobs. I can tell you
:43:09. > :43:19.that the fund has already helped fund around 170 projects,
:43:19. > :43:19.
:43:19. > :43:23.supporting an estimated 178,000 jobs. Now, conference, the economy
:43:23. > :43:26.has rightly been the central focus of this party conference. Yesterday
:43:26. > :43:32.had an excellent debate on some of the further measures we would like
:43:32. > :43:35.to cease -- like to see to support growth. Vince Cable gave a
:43:35. > :43:40.brilliant speech, setting out the work his department is doing to
:43:40. > :43:44.help clear up the mess left by Labour. I dare say the
:43:44. > :43:52.congratulatory text message from Ed Miliband has been unavoidably
:43:52. > :43:55.delayed. He has come out with a new economic theory this month. Pru
:43:55. > :44:00.distribution. Apparently, it means, spending money you do not have
:44:00. > :44:06.without knowing where that money is going to come from in future.
:44:06. > :44:12.Conference, it is not in United, it is a bad old one. Labour spent 13
:44:12. > :44:17.years trying it. -- not a new idea. Labour do not like us talking about
:44:17. > :44:22.their record in office but the country can never be allowed to
:44:22. > :44:26.forget their disastrous mistakes in banking, in regulation, in the
:44:26. > :44:36.public finances - falsely promising the British people they could end
:44:36. > :44:36.
:44:36. > :44:40.boom and bust. That was the chief secretary to the Treasury. He moved
:44:40. > :44:44.on from the jokes which fell a little flat to more economic
:44:45. > :44:48.substance. He was very proud of the efforts being done to track down
:44:48. > :44:53.tax dodgers in Liechtenstein and he went and talked about how the
:44:53. > :45:00.gunman was going to guarantee the building of the trains - the
:45:00. > :45:10.coaches that will run on the CrossRail link. -- at the
:45:10. > :45:13.
:45:13. > :45:16.We live in an age of apology, we have heard Nick Clegg, Andrew
:45:16. > :45:21.Mitchell. Is it time for Labour to say sorry for piling up so much
:45:21. > :45:26.debt while in government? We have apologised for not regulating the
:45:26. > :45:32.bounce sufficiently. Here and around the world, we should have
:45:32. > :45:42.demanded more. What about the debt? If you look at the financial crisis,
:45:42. > :45:46.
:45:46. > :45:53.debt fell to 36% of GDP. The size of the economy rose. In the good
:45:53. > :46:02.years, you are meant to build up a surplus. But between May 1997 and
:46:02. > :46:11.January 2008, before the crash, your government increased debt from
:46:11. > :46:14.�351 billion, to �512 billion, 45%. That doesn't enclose Network Rail
:46:14. > :46:20.or PFIs. Would you like to apologise for racking up non-stop
:46:20. > :46:25.debts, in years when you should have been running a surplus.
:46:25. > :46:30.were running a surplus in that some of those years, particularly in the
:46:30. > :46:39.early years of government. The in one year when you sold the airways.
:46:39. > :46:44.What matters is the debt as a share of the economy. If you have been --
:46:44. > :46:52.up an economy which is bigger, you can have a debt which is bigger. We
:46:52. > :46:58.faced a situation where NHS waiting lists... I am simply saying you had
:46:58. > :47:03.consistent growth for 10 years. we bought down the debt burden.
:47:03. > :47:11.some stage you should have run a surplus so when the bad times came,
:47:11. > :47:17.you wouldn't have ended up with �512 billion of debt. We had the
:47:17. > :47:23.second lowest debt to GDP ratio in BGA it when the financial crisis
:47:23. > :47:27.hit in 2007. We did reduce that debt burden in that period. But
:47:27. > :47:36.when the financial crisis hit, we had to make a decision on whether
:47:36. > :47:42.we would stick to spending plans. We did reduce the debt. You hear
:47:42. > :47:51.from Brighton, talk about texting people who live in big homes --
:47:51. > :47:56.taxing. Making the 10% highest income as paying more, all of that
:47:56. > :48:06.must be music to your ears? have to judge politicians on what
:48:06. > :48:07.
:48:07. > :48:10.they say, what they deliver. If we judge you on what you say... If you
:48:10. > :48:17.look at the Liberal Democrats, what they are saying, it is all good
:48:17. > :48:24.stuff. Let us give them the benefit of the doubt. They can't deliver it
:48:24. > :48:29.with the Tories, but they could with you. Are you up for that?
:48:29. > :48:35.for example, the Liberal Democrats had all voted against the increase
:48:35. > :48:43.in tuition fees, or had all voted against the reduction in the top
:48:43. > :48:50.rate of tax... We have said we're willing to work with anybody on
:48:50. > :48:54.plans towards mansion tax, high- value properties. I understand that.
:48:54. > :49:01.Your point is clearly right, to say we can't deliver them, we don't yet
:49:01. > :49:08.know what we have to do. We have to persuade our coalition partners.
:49:08. > :49:14.is unlikely the Tories will give you are a wealth tax. How do you
:49:14. > :49:24.define a wealth tax? George Osborne has said it in principle he is in
:49:24. > :49:30.favour of moving tax more towards wealth and income. Lots of
:49:31. > :49:40.millionaires don't earn a million, it is because they have turned to
:49:41. > :49:46.
:49:46. > :49:56.hundred �1,000 and grown it. -- earned �100,000. I suspect it in
:49:56. > :50:02.the last tax year, budget, George Osborne came very close to
:50:02. > :50:07.implementing a mansion tax. You are more likely to get all of that with
:50:07. > :50:11.the Labour Party. More likely. Than you would with the Tories. That may
:50:11. > :50:16.well be the case but we are not with the Labour Party and the
:50:16. > :50:20.elections are not for 2 1/2 years. What will happen after the election
:50:20. > :50:25.if there is a hung Parliament, I assumed we will do as we did this
:50:25. > :50:29.time. Are you giving thought to having some kind of deal with the
:50:29. > :50:35.Liberal Democrats? We are campaigning for a Labour victory at
:50:35. > :50:39.the next election. We have another 2 1/2 years. It is about what
:50:39. > :50:45.happens in between. If we can work with the Liberal Democrats or any
:50:45. > :50:51.other power now on policies that will be fairer on families, a match
:50:51. > :50:55.and tax, rather than a massive cut to tax credits. The Lib Dems have
:50:55. > :51:00.to fight their corner. If they say they think people who are wealthier
:51:00. > :51:10.should be taxed more, they should not have voted for that cut in a
:51:10. > :51:15.
:51:15. > :51:19.top rate of tax. The Lib Dems in Scotland may be far from government,
:51:19. > :51:21.but they are part of a coalition with the Tories and Labour, against
:51:21. > :51:24.Scottish independence. However, their effectiveness in that
:51:24. > :51:27.campaign has been somewhat blunted by disastrous results in the last
:51:27. > :51:31.Holyrood parliamentary elections. They were reduced to a rump of just
:51:31. > :51:34.five MSPs. The party north of the border blames its demise on the
:51:34. > :51:41.other coalition, the one in Westminster. But how do the
:51:41. > :51:46.north of the border? David Thompson reports.
:51:46. > :51:50.A much designed to beat the drum for independence. Has the biggest
:51:50. > :51:54.political decision Scotland will make in 300 years really capture
:51:54. > :51:59.the public imagination? In terms of looking for signs on the ground,
:51:59. > :52:05.there was a rally in Edinburgh on Saturday which attracted a crowd of
:52:05. > :52:09.5,000 people. Not insubstantial but probably not as many as the
:52:09. > :52:12.organisers were hoping for. One of the main players in the anti-
:52:12. > :52:19.independence campaign are the Scottish Liberal Democrats. They
:52:19. > :52:23.took a pasting at the last elections. What is frustrating for
:52:23. > :52:30.the Liberal Democrats in Scotland is all of our good work in Scotland
:52:30. > :52:34.focused on devolved issues in Scotland, are being overshadowed by
:52:34. > :52:44.difficulties in London. The latest of which has been the apology by
:52:44. > :52:48.
:52:48. > :52:52.Nick Clegg on tuition fees. That had a bad effect in Scotland. One
:52:52. > :52:56.other reasons why I am no longer an MSP and we lost our mainland seats
:52:57. > :52:59.in Scotland last year. Which is why people might think all that
:52:59. > :53:04.independence might be a mistake for Scotland, it could work for the
:53:04. > :53:10.Scottish Liberal Democrats. Scotland we have to make it clear
:53:10. > :53:17.to the people in Scotland and south of the border that, in fact, we are
:53:17. > :53:24.a distinct party. That means having English Liberal Democrats. At the
:53:24. > :53:28.moment, in theory, we are a federal party. But there is no formal name
:53:28. > :53:36.for the English Liberal Democrats. There is for the Welsh Liberal
:53:36. > :53:45.Democrats. It is not true federalism. The independence
:53:45. > :53:51.referendum itself is an issue. Paul's in Scotland always confirm
:53:51. > :53:58.people in Scotland want a beefed up Liberal Democrat party. We have
:53:58. > :54:02.been the prime movers for home rule. This is a real opportunity for the
:54:02. > :54:06.Scottish Liberal Democrats to lead here, take the vanguard, for
:54:06. > :54:09.increased powers for Scottish Parliament. But people would have
:54:09. > :54:14.to start taking the Scottish Liberal Democrats seriously again
:54:14. > :54:19.which brings us back to where we started. The Lib Dems have been
:54:19. > :54:23.marginalised in the independence debate, because, it is clear
:54:23. > :54:28.whenever they stick their heads above the parapet, Alex Salmond
:54:28. > :54:35.reminds everyone of their association with the Conservatives.
:54:35. > :54:42.A vote on independence is at least two years away. Whether Scottish
:54:42. > :54:46.Liberal Democrats will be, who knows. Willie Rennie, the Leader of
:54:46. > :54:52.the Scottish Liberal Democrats, joins us from conference.
:54:52. > :54:59.Your party has taken a hammering in Scotland in recent elections. In
:54:59. > :55:05.Scottish Parliament elections, your party's worst election performance.
:55:05. > :55:12.What is your plan? The plan is to set out what we believe, standing
:55:12. > :55:16.up for big liberal values in Scotland. That is why we stand up
:55:16. > :55:21.on their tax, making sure we invest in colleges, housing, early
:55:21. > :55:24.intervention. We have made progress on that already. Even though there
:55:24. > :55:31.are only five of us in Scottish Parliament, we have managed to get
:55:31. > :55:37.big concessions. Is the problem that you are not being heard,
:55:37. > :55:43.people don't trust you, because of the activities of the coalition in
:55:43. > :55:47.Westminster? Do you agree with that? Of course the coalition is an
:55:47. > :55:53.issue but you are in politics to do the right thing, to get the economy
:55:53. > :55:57.back on track, and bring fairness to the country. We are in step with
:55:57. > :56:01.the majority of public opinion on more powers for the Scottish
:56:01. > :56:06.Parliament, by far the most popular policy to have home rule for
:56:06. > :56:14.Scotland. Raising more money to spend it on issues important for
:56:14. > :56:19.Scotland. That is what we are in step with. Do you think that is
:56:19. > :56:25.really going to win you back all of those seats you have lost. Five
:56:25. > :56:31.MSPs. How far do you blame the activities of the coalition in
:56:31. > :56:36.London? I tend not to blame anybody because we are one-party working
:56:36. > :56:39.together in a partnership to deal with this economic crisis. I would
:56:39. > :56:49.be no doubt in my duties if I thought I could distance myself
:56:49. > :56:53.
:56:53. > :56:57.from that. -- neglecting. Your predecessor said for 12 years there
:56:57. > :57:03.has been a Scottish solution, a different way, and we will build on
:57:03. > :57:09.that. He distanced himself from Westminster, and it worked. He set
:57:09. > :57:15.out his strategy. He was very good at advocating on some unique
:57:15. > :57:23.policies, like releasing money for Scottish water to invest in capital
:57:23. > :57:28.infrastructure. It was difficult. What you like about Nick Clegg?
:57:28. > :57:32.think he is a man of great principle. All you had to do is
:57:32. > :57:39.spend five minutes with him to see that he has a full grasp of British
:57:39. > :57:46.politics. He doesn't shy away from difficult challenges. He is very
:57:46. > :57:49.good at addressing them. How do sell Nick Clegg in Scotland?
:57:49. > :57:53.bringing him up to Scotland more often, as we are doing, showing
:57:53. > :58:01.that he really cares about issues like mental health, early
:58:01. > :58:08.intervention, nursery education, the pupil premium, these are the
:58:08. > :58:15.policies that showed the fairness side of the Liberal Democrats.
:58:15. > :58:25.time to get the answer to the quiz. Ed Davey used to work in a factory,
:58:25. > :58:34.
:58:34. > :58:38.but what did it make? Any idea, Tim? C) Pork pies. He also made
:58:38. > :58:41.Scotch eggs. That's all for today. Thanks to all
:58:41. > :58:45.our guests, especially Tim Razzall. The one o'clock news is starting