Conference Special

:00:52. > :00:56.Morning. Welcome to this two-hour conference special. Has Ed Miliband

:00:56. > :01:01.got it in him to kick-start the economy? The Shadow Chancellor

:01:01. > :01:08.thinks he has. No surprise there. As if to underline that, he's been

:01:09. > :01:13.showing off this morning his football prowess in a match. He's

:01:13. > :01:19.only found the back of the net, but found a way to spend an extra �3

:01:19. > :01:24.billion or so on affordable new homes. Mr Balls addresses

:01:24. > :01:29.Conference just after midday. We will take his speech live and

:01:29. > :01:36.uninterrupted. You may have heard Ed the geek, now meet Ed the human.

:01:36. > :01:42.He's like you and me - even went to a comprehensive. Can ordinary Ed

:01:42. > :01:49.carry Labour to victory in the next election? It has been dominated by

:01:49. > :01:54.foreign policy so far. Would Labour support a referendum on Europe?

:01:54. > :02:04.Here we go, here's a former minister. He should know. I've got

:02:04. > :02:08.to answer a phone call. Boring! Boring! Was he talking about us?

:02:08. > :02:13.All that in the next two, yes, two hours this morning. Two for the

:02:13. > :02:20.price of one! Don't you dare complain about the license fee to

:02:20. > :02:26.me! With us for the duration Graeme Leach from the Institute of

:02:26. > :02:30.Directors and Duncan Weldon, chief executive of the TUC. Two chiefs!

:02:30. > :02:34.Welcome to you two. In a moment we will head up to Manchester to check

:02:34. > :02:38.out the mood at the Labour conference. Let's hope it's not as

:02:38. > :02:42.wet up there as it is down here. First this morning, let's talk

:02:43. > :02:52.about a whole host of Government measures which come into force

:02:52. > :02:58.today. The national minimum wage rises from today by a whole 11p.

:02:58. > :03:04.Don't spend it all at once. There'll be VAT on alterations to

:03:04. > :03:10.listed buildings and on hairdressers' chairs. And on some

:03:10. > :03:17.hot food snacks which led to the great pasty tax backlash. Remember

:03:17. > :03:22.that? I do! Another one to do with pensions.

:03:22. > :03:29.People who own small businesses now will be signed on - they may opt-

:03:29. > :03:32.out at a later stage. Is this something we should welcome?

:03:32. > :03:38.should reverse decades of falling pension provision. It is something

:03:38. > :03:43.we, in the TUC, will be welcoming. Unlike the CBI, you have a lot of

:03:43. > :03:47.businesses and small and medium- sized businesses, are they worried

:03:47. > :03:52.about the bureaucracy or the cost? They'll have to contribute to this,

:03:52. > :03:57.won't they? They are worried about mission creep here. What starts out

:03:57. > :04:02.as a low employer contribution will escalate over time. Even with a

:04:02. > :04:08.full whack of contributions now it is still not enough to give you a

:04:09. > :04:14.pension you need in retirement. much at the moment, to begin with,

:04:14. > :04:21.how much will employees put in and employers put in? At the moment 3%

:04:21. > :04:27.for the employer. That goes up over time as well. To how much? 8%.

:04:27. > :04:32.it a combined 8%? That's right. used to have some of the best

:04:32. > :04:37.private pension provision in the world. That has gone down the swany.

:04:37. > :04:42.Isn't this an attempt to rebuilt it over time? When it is an attempt to

:04:42. > :04:47.rebuild a pension system which is a decadeal shift. It will not move in

:04:47. > :04:52.the next two years. You have to start somewhere though, don't you?

:04:52. > :04:58.There is a problem that at the end of the day that employees putting

:04:58. > :05:03.their money in may actually in many instances be better off staying on

:05:04. > :05:13.the outside. We are quite concerned on a range ofishs here. At the

:05:13. > :05:19.moment you are saying it is all right. If you are in your mid-

:05:19. > :05:25.twentys or early 30s, you will now see a chunk come out of your income.

:05:25. > :05:29.Do you think some people will say, I want the money to spend now?

:05:29. > :05:33.would encourage people to go into the system. The earlier you start

:05:33. > :05:37.saving, the less you have to save as a percentage of your income. We

:05:37. > :05:43.have some concerns as well that already some employers are trying

:05:43. > :05:48.to put extra costs into the schemes, they are saying complying with

:05:48. > :05:54.autoenrolment means consultants. We don't want any back-sliding. At the

:05:54. > :05:59.moment the Government has set out the contributions and that is clear.

:05:59. > :06:04.Why do you need a consultant? key thing is not so much back-

:06:04. > :06:08.sliding by the employer, it is also by the employee. Where we only have

:06:09. > :06:15.1.5% earnings growth, where it will be more pension contribution....

:06:15. > :06:21.That was the input of my question to the chief economist of the TUC.

:06:21. > :06:26.It is easy. As the employer, you have to put in X per cent into the

:06:26. > :06:32.pension and the employee gets Y per cent deducted to go into the

:06:32. > :06:36.pension pot. Even I can work that out! There are a lot of

:06:36. > :06:43.bureaucratic issues. Companies are worried about that. A lot are not

:06:43. > :06:47.aware, on the small firm side, that this is coming in. On to the

:06:47. > :06:54.important issue. What kind of pasty is going to be taxed and what

:06:54. > :07:02.isn't? If you buy a pasty now, it is fine, you can put it into a

:07:02. > :07:09.microwave. I am not sure the Chancellor can tell us. Chickens

:07:09. > :07:14.today will be up 20%. I stocked up yesterday. If you brought them

:07:14. > :07:19.yesterday you wouldn't have to pai. You can see the hot chicken market

:07:19. > :07:25.falling out! To Fleet Street, where two of the

:07:25. > :07:30.finest were waiting to speak to us. We have Jackie Ashley from the

:07:30. > :07:37.Guardian and parsz Parris from the Times. What -- Matthew Parris from

:07:37. > :07:47.the Times. What a sight! There was this head of Come puss, who said

:07:47. > :07:47.

:07:47. > :07:53.over the weekend, he had never seen a more lazy, less dra maltic --

:07:54. > :07:58.dramatic build-up to a Conference. He's wanting to make a name for

:07:58. > :08:04.himself. We don't hear you very well. We heard something about hot

:08:04. > :08:09.chickens some time ago. We wish you were here. In fact, you should have

:08:09. > :08:13.come here. Matthew, what is the mood of the conference? Well, they

:08:13. > :08:18.are not on fire. That's perfectly fire. They are not on fire. On the

:08:18. > :08:22.other hand, I think the mood is fairly steady. Last year, there was

:08:22. > :08:29.a lot of murmuring about Ed Miliband's leadership. I think that

:08:29. > :08:34.murmuring has gone away. They are in a muted, subdued mood. There are

:08:34. > :08:41.no rebellions, no mutinys. Everybody is looking forward to

:08:41. > :08:46.hearing Ed Balls later this morning. All this money that nobody knew

:08:46. > :08:50.anything about - very good news! The speech is the highlight of the

:08:50. > :08:54.day. The papers this morning and the blogs, they are full of already

:08:54. > :08:58.what he's going to say. Now every major leader now does this. Do you

:08:58. > :09:02.think it is wise that they tell us what they are going to say before

:09:02. > :09:08.they say it? Not really. It is a tradition which has gone on for

:09:08. > :09:12.years now. They have the briefing about 3pm or 4pm the evening before

:09:12. > :09:17.and the news paper journalists write it up. Why do we bother to

:09:17. > :09:20.list on the the speech? Maybe one day they'll do it differently. I

:09:20. > :09:24.don't think he will say much more about what he would do if he were

:09:24. > :09:28.Chancellor after the next election. I think it is sensible. It is too

:09:28. > :09:33.early to do that. By the time he makes the speech, the Tories will

:09:33. > :09:36.have their rebuttal in. It's a curious business this

:09:36. > :09:45.preannouncement. We were just wondering on the Times whether bals

:09:45. > :09:50.ball bals has discovered that -- Ed Balls has discovered that and he

:09:50. > :09:56.has sneaked in first. It is possible. The whole license thing

:09:56. > :10:01.is tied up in a legal mess at the moment. Mr McCluskey, the biggest

:10:01. > :10:06.union baron in the country, saying he wants a purge of Blairites. Mr

:10:06. > :10:11.Miliband yesterday saying he's wrong, "I'm not going to do that."

:10:11. > :10:16.Are the union militants n the end, are they helpful to Mr Miliband, or

:10:16. > :10:20.is there a problem coming down the pike? I think the unions are being

:10:20. > :10:24.very unhelpful. Mr McCluskey is. I don't think there's this Great War

:10:24. > :10:29.starting up in the party that some people are trying to characterise

:10:29. > :10:33.it as well. There were the Blairite people last night and they were

:10:34. > :10:37.supportive of Ed, all saying the right things T unions are making

:10:37. > :10:42.the rumbling noises in the background, but are not that

:10:42. > :10:51.influential any more. They are not that influential any more. They may

:10:51. > :10:56.pay the bills, but not that influential. Len McCluskey said his

:10:56. > :11:00.party would stop funding Members of Parliament who did not toe the line.

:11:00. > :11:06.The put down on the Ma'arra programme was remarkably sharp.

:11:06. > :11:11.Maybe -- on the Marr programme was remarkable sharp. Maybe he has done

:11:11. > :11:16.him a favour by showing who is in charge. All the people around Ed

:11:16. > :11:21.Miliband are saying this will be his best speech yet, it is a good

:11:21. > :11:24.one. They say this will be fantastic. We will see. Talk about

:11:24. > :11:29.managing expectations! I think they are doing it the wrong way around.

:11:29. > :11:35.They are meant to say he's mediocre, then we are all surprised. How is

:11:35. > :11:39.this Ed the human project going? Well, it is a work in progress,

:11:39. > :11:46.shall we say! It is good. He has stopped trying to be image-made.

:11:46. > :11:52.There was an effort to fix his nose and fix his voice. They are given

:11:52. > :11:58.up now and said let Ed be Ed. Before he was leader he was a

:11:58. > :12:05.natural, dare I say a charismatic performer. He was good with an

:12:05. > :12:09.audience. He needs to rediscover that old self. Recent polls only

:12:09. > :12:18.show 3% of the country think he is charismatic. You must be one of the

:12:18. > :12:24.3%. As I say, work in progress. I am not too pessimistic. Stpwh

:12:24. > :12:28.think very often complaining about the nose or the voice is a toe tum

:12:28. > :12:31.for people not knowing what the party stands for. I don't think

:12:31. > :12:35.there's anything wrong with Ed Miliband, the way he looks, talks,

:12:35. > :12:39.stands. He has stature, he has dignity. He has intelligence. He

:12:40. > :12:43.has to have something to say. Once he has something to say, then all

:12:43. > :12:49.these problems of personality and grooming will cure themselves.

:12:49. > :12:52.it comes to something to say, I assume we're not going to get a

:12:52. > :12:56.range of policies which might not be the sensible thing for Labour to

:12:56. > :13:02.do any way. What we are looking for, what we expect is a sense of

:13:02. > :13:08.direction. Is that correct? I think he is starting to sketch that out.

:13:08. > :13:12.He has made it clear his position on the bank - he will be tougher on

:13:12. > :13:17.the banks. Responsible capitalism. I think we are seeing a reform of

:13:17. > :13:20.the public services. We are seeing some policy ideas coming out. You

:13:20. > :13:24.will not get chapter and verse of things. That would be silly at this

:13:24. > :13:30.stage. We'll have a clearer sense by the end of the week about what

:13:30. > :13:34.kind of Prime Minister he would be. I very much doubt it. The big

:13:34. > :13:38.question Ed Miliband has to answer, it has become dull, but, what is

:13:38. > :13:43.the point of a Labour Government, when there is no money to spend?

:13:43. > :13:49.That is what he has got to show us. Maybe more 4G licenses is the

:13:49. > :13:54.answer! Thanks to you both. Time for our

:13:54. > :14:04.daily quiz. The question for today is: What does Ed Miliband say he's

:14:04. > :14:12.

:14:12. > :14:16.done in response to text from Vince At the end of our show the guests

:14:16. > :14:20.will give you the correct answer, won't you?

:14:20. > :14:24.I know, you probably don't. Later in the week, the nation will be

:14:24. > :14:29.treated, as I said there, to Ed The Movie. It is a party political

:14:29. > :14:36.broadcast, which will attempt to banish the idea of Ed Miliband as a

:14:36. > :14:40.geek with a Rubik's Cube and paint him as a family man and a project

:14:40. > :14:46.of an ordinary London comprehensive. He denied he was having a makeover.

:14:46. > :14:50.Why the focus on selling the party leader rare than the policies? Well,

:14:50. > :14:54.his party is having no problem, according to voters. They are

:14:54. > :14:59.enjoying a 10-point lead over the Conservatives, according to a

:14:59. > :15:05.survey this week. Ten points are ten points. That would be enough to

:15:05. > :15:09.send Mr Miliband to Number Ten, if it translated into votes in 2015.

:15:09. > :15:12.The mid-term opposition, they usually fade as we get close tore

:15:12. > :15:15.the general election. More concerning for Labour is the fact

:15:15. > :15:21.that David Cameron is still seen by the public as a stronger leader.

:15:21. > :15:24.They also think the Prime Minister is a r more decisive, more likable.

:15:24. > :15:28.Has a clearer vision for Britain and has the better strategy for

:15:28. > :15:33.getting the country out of recession. The only areas where Mr

:15:33. > :15:35.Miliband has the lead is being seen Miliband has the lead is being seen

:15:35. > :15:38.as more in touch with ordinary people and slightly more

:15:38. > :15:46.trustworthy. While his personal ratings remain

:15:46. > :15:56.poor, the polls say he's a much more appealing figure than Ed Baps

:15:56. > :16:03.

:16:03. > :16:08.or his wife, Yvette Cooper. -- Ed It is pretty much accepted by all

:16:08. > :16:12.commentators like me that indeed Ed Miliband will lead Labour into the

:16:12. > :16:16.next General Election. Well this is what Ed Miliband had to say about

:16:16. > :16:21.it all on the Andrew Marr programme yesterday. Ideas a matter in

:16:21. > :16:27.politics but I am not embarrassed about that. Let me be clear about

:16:27. > :16:32.this. I gave a speech last year at the Labour Party conference, it was

:16:32. > :16:37.controversial. I talked about predatory behaviour. I do not

:16:37. > :16:43.regret it. Over the last year people have said, maybe he is right

:16:43. > :16:47.about that. I am clear about this. I am my own person and I will do it

:16:47. > :16:52.my own way. In the end people respect somebody who has

:16:52. > :16:56.seriousness of purpose, a clarity of ideas. People will always know

:16:56. > :17:00.where I stand, and that is the most important test of leadership. And

:17:00. > :17:04.the real test of who will be next Prime Minister will be who can

:17:04. > :17:07.stand up and rebuild Great Britain and rebuild the economy. I think we

:17:07. > :17:11.can win this election. And joining me from Brighton are

:17:11. > :17:17.Dan Hodges, he used to work for the Labour Party and now writes for the

:17:17. > :17:27.Telegraph. And Andrew Harrop of the Fabian Society, that's a Think Tank

:17:27. > :17:28.

:17:28. > :17:36.affiliated to Labour. Andrew, let me come to you first, why don't the

:17:36. > :17:40.voters think Mr Miliband is made of Prime Ministerial stuff? I think

:17:40. > :17:45.the first thing voters thing about Ed Miliband is they don't know much

:17:45. > :17:49.about him. It is not necessarily they dislike him, but they don't

:17:49. > :17:55.know what he stands for and what he would be like as a leader. The most

:17:55. > :17:58.important thing for him is to define himself rather than let the

:17:58. > :18:03.Conservatives define him in a negative light. People have said

:18:03. > :18:06.this week, the way to do that is set out some big signature policies

:18:06. > :18:11.and say how he would make Britain different from the coalition if he

:18:11. > :18:16.was in power. Is it the absence of policy that makes people

:18:16. > :18:22.circumstance about Mr Miliband, or is it what they see on the

:18:22. > :18:28.television screens? I think it is substance rather than style. I

:18:28. > :18:31.don't have by Avis, if he was a wonderful, charismatic leader,

:18:31. > :18:35.everybody would be putting Ed Miliband posters on the wall. It is

:18:35. > :18:40.a combination of the policy and a lack of policy that is feeding into

:18:40. > :18:44.the negative ratings. What people want to see in a leader is someone

:18:44. > :18:50.who is prepared to take hard and difficult decisions. That is what

:18:50. > :18:54.the polling is demonstrating in relation to Ed Miliband. It seems

:18:54. > :18:59.he is not prepared to do that. The strategy he pursued to become

:18:59. > :19:03.leader was to go with the grain of his party and its thinking. That

:19:03. > :19:08.sadly is not going with the grain of what the country is thinking. I

:19:08. > :19:12.have been hearing for two years, people saying, they don't know what

:19:12. > :19:16.Ed Miliband stands for and when they get to know him, they were

:19:16. > :19:23.like him. I think they do know who he is now, and the direction he is

:19:23. > :19:30.taking the party in, and they don't like it. Andrew? Ida -- disagree

:19:30. > :19:33.with that. We have been the research and the way they are

:19:33. > :19:38.reshaping the economy and the future of the welfare state is very

:19:38. > :19:48.much what Labour has been saying. Does Labour have a policy on

:19:48. > :19:48.

:19:48. > :19:52.welfare reform, I think I miss that? -- missed that. You say how

:19:52. > :20:02.Labour Reform gels with what the British people were thinking, I'm

:20:02. > :20:02.

:20:02. > :20:09.not sure what that is? There is a lot more to come. It wouldn't

:20:09. > :20:14.reverse the cuts that have been made. That his coalition policy.

:20:14. > :20:21.has been said Ed Miliband is being timid and plain to the left, but he

:20:21. > :20:25.is taking on people saying they won't be a reverse because Labour

:20:25. > :20:30.cannot afford it. We have heard Ed Balls will be making a big

:20:30. > :20:35.announcement on housing later. That is the sort of thing, housing, jobs

:20:35. > :20:39.for young people were Labour needs to stand out and show it is

:20:39. > :20:46.different to the coalition. But it is money he does not have. Dan

:20:46. > :20:56.Hodges, the party is ahead in the polls, why don't you just get

:20:56. > :20:57.

:20:57. > :21:02.behind the party? Apparently if I'd shut it, Ed Balls would be -- Ed

:21:02. > :21:06.Miliband would be soaring ahead. If you look historically, and you

:21:07. > :21:11.pointed this out before, the Labour's leader in the polls is not

:21:11. > :21:15.high enough. It is averaging 10 points in the polls in the middle

:21:15. > :21:21.of a double-dip reception -- recession and with all of the

:21:21. > :21:26.Government's problems. It is at a time when the Lib Dems aren't 8%

:21:26. > :21:31.and UKIP of bouncing around on nine or 10%. I don't think anybody

:21:31. > :21:40.seriously believes the Lib Dems will get 9% at the next election or

:21:40. > :21:43.that UKIP will get 10%. Were the Lib Dems to shift the leader and

:21:43. > :21:48.would David Cameron to make some policy announcement, as many expect

:21:48. > :21:54.him to do in relation to Europe, will bring those UKIP people back

:21:54. > :21:58.to him. That is Ed Miliband's lead gone without anything being done of

:21:58. > :22:06.significance on either side. That is before the situation of

:22:06. > :22:10.everybody thinks everybody is on a gradual economic recovery. And that

:22:10. > :22:15.is it the Tories get their act together. And Ed Miliband and his

:22:15. > :22:20.party, as we get closer to the General Election, will come under

:22:20. > :22:24.some very vigorous scrutiny. My have not seen much from Ed Miliband

:22:24. > :22:31.that encourages me to be able to resist that scrutiny. Andrew, do

:22:31. > :22:35.you think people will buy this part of Ed Miliband to sell him as an

:22:35. > :22:41.ordinary boy from north London? He may have gone to a comprehensive,

:22:41. > :22:48.but we both know he is north London Labour aristocracy, he is not

:22:48. > :22:51.ordinary at all? We need to get over the personality politics. He

:22:51. > :22:57.has obviously been within the political world for most of his

:22:57. > :23:03.career. All of it! He does stand out from David Cameron in terms of

:23:03. > :23:07.the sort of issues he talks about, who he cares about. The one thing

:23:07. > :23:11.he does poll very well on his he is in touch with people and cares

:23:11. > :23:16.about everyone in the country and not just delete the David Cameron

:23:16. > :23:20.is linked to. I want to pick up down on what he said on the polls.

:23:20. > :23:25.Fabian has just been doing some research which challenges this myth

:23:25. > :23:29.that has gone around that Labour's lead in the polls is very soft. We

:23:29. > :23:34.look at how many people who say they are certain to vote Labour at

:23:34. > :23:38.the next election, and it is 8 million people already. He only

:23:38. > :23:43.needs 11 million to win and a majority. Some Liberal Democrats or

:23:43. > :23:47.will go back, but there are awful lot of Lib Dems who have not made

:23:47. > :23:54.up their mind. The same goes for the Conservatives. Very few

:23:54. > :23:58.Conservatives have shifted from the Tories to Labour. Actually, Ed

:23:58. > :24:05.Miliband's support, those who say they want to vote for him, is

:24:05. > :24:11.immune to then go and support David Cameron later. Do you buy that, it

:24:11. > :24:15.sounds dodgy to me? I was just going to ask, I looked at some of

:24:15. > :24:20.that and your research shows Ed Miliband is still 2.5 million votes

:24:20. > :24:29.short of where he was meant to be. If he has not secured those 2.5

:24:29. > :24:36.million votes in the middle of a double-dip recession, and this

:24:36. > :24:40.summer shambles which turned into an almost Ultra shambles, why is it

:24:40. > :24:46.those people who are not convinced about him now, suddenly start

:24:46. > :24:51.flocking to him? I lot of people are considering voting for Labour.

:24:51. > :24:54.I understand the considering voting Labour, we are in the middle of a

:24:54. > :24:58.double-dip recession, the Government has been in a shambles,

:24:58. > :25:02.Tories are fighting amongst themselves. If people under that

:25:02. > :25:07.background are not saying they are convinced about him, why will they

:25:07. > :25:10.be convinced in two years? A lot of them are. You just said they were

:25:10. > :25:16.not, we were talking about the people who have not made their

:25:16. > :25:19.minds of. Why if people have not made their minds up about him now,

:25:19. > :25:25.against that background, why would they make their minds up closer to

:25:25. > :25:29.the election? The state people are in his desperate. Why aren't people

:25:29. > :25:35.embracing Ed Miliband? The chances of Ed Miliband getting a majority

:25:35. > :25:40.Government are far higher than David Cameron. I am sorry to

:25:40. > :25:44.interrupt you, I was enjoying that. Dan Hodges, what is it like to be

:25:44. > :25:51.the most unpopular person at the Labour conference? It is wonderful,

:25:51. > :25:57.I love it. I embrace it, Andrew, as you know. Ben Shore and you will

:25:57. > :26:07.look after you and act as your bodyguard. I will try. -- I am sure.

:26:07. > :26:09.Thanks for joining us from Manchester. We are always being

:26:09. > :26:14.criticised about dealing in personalities. He took about the

:26:14. > :26:20.man, the woman and not the policies. But his Labour conference, they

:26:20. > :26:25.want to give us more of an idea of what Labour stands for, its policy.

:26:25. > :26:30.But equally, they are trying to do something about Mr Miliband's image.

:26:30. > :26:36.They are talking about personality? I agree with that Matthew Parris,

:26:36. > :26:41.it is not about personality, it is about policies. Ed Miliband, in the

:26:41. > :26:47.last two years we have not had much about specific, individual policies.

:26:47. > :26:53.But we have had the direction of travel, responsible capitalism last

:26:53. > :26:57.year. That agenda is resonating with people. It is important in one

:26:57. > :27:02.way, the easiest thing for Labour to do now, is we are in a double-

:27:02. > :27:06.dip recession, we need more demand in the economy, get over that and

:27:06. > :27:11.we will be fine. But Ed Miliband is saying there were problems in our

:27:11. > :27:17.economy before the crash. Too many rewards in Arbroath were going to

:27:17. > :27:23.people at the top, it was unbalanced. -- in growth. It is an

:27:23. > :27:28.interesting direction to be moving in. Policy may give Ed Miliband a

:27:28. > :27:38.different persona to the public, but as I understand it, Ed the

:27:38. > :27:38.

:27:38. > :27:43.movie is not about politics, it will show him about the lad from

:27:43. > :27:49.the local comprehensive. The son of immigrants fleeing Nazi journey. It

:27:49. > :27:55.is not policy? It is not. But all the party leaders have their own

:27:55. > :27:58.connection with the general public. If you look at some of the positive

:27:58. > :28:05.measures for David Cameron at the moment, you could say before the

:28:05. > :28:09.last election, Gordon Brown had the same positive ratings against David

:28:09. > :28:14.Cameron and it did not give him the election. They have the same

:28:14. > :28:19.connection, but I would agree, it is about the economy. That is what

:28:19. > :28:22.will decide it. Actually, it helps Labour in the sense that a don't

:28:22. > :28:27.think the economy will do the Government any favours in the short

:28:27. > :28:31.term. If it was all about policies, that is what they would be

:28:31. > :28:34.concentrating on. If they had a series of policies they thought

:28:34. > :28:39.would game changes, that is what the political broadcast would be

:28:39. > :28:45.about. But it is not, it is about Ed Miliband the man, the human, not

:28:45. > :28:49.be geek? In terms of specific policies, it is not the wisest

:28:49. > :28:53.thing three years before the election. We have had some

:28:53. > :28:57.interesting things, last year at the conference we have support for

:28:57. > :29:04.a state Investment Bank, National Investment Bank, which did not get

:29:04. > :29:11.a lot of attention, but Vince Cable announced he is going to do it. It

:29:11. > :29:14.is a policy Labour were supporting, TUC were supporting. Lots of

:29:14. > :29:21.businesses supported it and now it looks as though it is making it to

:29:21. > :29:30.the statute. But a lot of people won't have much to invest so it

:29:30. > :29:33.might not even be a bank. When we talk about connection, it isn't

:29:33. > :29:38.just one party political broadcast... It is a programme, you

:29:38. > :29:45.are right. At the last election, everyone was in love with Nick

:29:45. > :29:49.Clegg, and he lost seats a week later. Personality is quite an

:29:49. > :29:54.unstable basis on which to build political appeal? If it is more fun

:29:54. > :29:58.for people like yourself to talk about personalities instead of the

:29:58. > :30:08.case for Estate Investment Bank. I'm much more at home talking about

:30:08. > :30:15.

:30:15. > :30:25.Let's see what Danny Alexander had to say.

:30:25. > :30:25.

:30:25. > :30:30.Stop the modern world, we want to get off. -- Douglas Alexander had

:30:30. > :30:35.to say. Stop the modern world. We want to get off. Conference,

:30:35. > :30:41.Britain exists in a modern world, in which everyone is connected to

:30:41. > :30:45.everything. A world of quite unimaginable interdependence and

:30:46. > :30:50.the fundamental flaw of the Conservatives' aprosh to foreign

:30:50. > :30:56.policy that that two -- approach to foreign policy is that two years

:30:56. > :31:01.into office they remain unreconciled to that truth. Let's

:31:01. > :31:05.take the most pressing example - of course it's Europe. Does it matter

:31:05. > :31:09.to Britain? Absolutely. Does it require fundamental reform?

:31:09. > :31:14.Certainly. Does this Conservative Government have a clue how to

:31:14. > :31:19.affect that reform in Britain's national interest? Absolutely not.

:31:19. > :31:24.Now, we all know that change is coming to Europe. That is why,

:31:24. > :31:31.under Ed Miliband's leadership, Labour will argue for reform in

:31:31. > :31:35.Europe, not exit from Europe. Why... APPLAUSE

:31:35. > :31:42.Why will we hake that case for Britain? We make that case because

:31:42. > :31:46.British jobs, British exports and yes, British influence in the wider

:31:46. > :31:51.world benefits from Britain's continued membership of the

:31:51. > :31:57.European Union. Now, of course next week, we will no doubt hear some

:31:57. > :32:01.boosts and some blusters from David Cameron about Europe, as he tries

:32:02. > :32:06.to assuage his Everested backbenchers. Let's be honest about

:32:06. > :32:11.high that is happening, it is happening because if you start with

:32:11. > :32:14.a bunch of them on your backbenchers, you end up with the

:32:14. > :32:18.fiasco of the non-veto last December, where the Conservative

:32:18. > :32:22.front bench managed to unite the whole of Europe. The only problem

:32:22. > :32:27.is they managed to unite them against the United Kingdom. So,

:32:27. > :32:32.when you hear David Cameron next week, remember this truth - the

:32:32. > :32:36.real tragedy t national tragedy is that the Conservatives have

:32:36. > :32:42.marginallised Europe's voice in Britain just when it matters most.

:32:42. > :32:52.Two years into office, Conference, that is David Cameron in a nutshell.

:32:52. > :32:55.

:32:55. > :33:00.Out of touch at home, out of his -- APPLAUSE

:33:00. > :33:04.Conference, let's try and figure this out - what is the

:33:04. > :33:09.Conservative's strategy on Europe? Nothing. What is their strategy for

:33:09. > :33:13.the G20? It is a blank page. What is their strategy for the World

:33:13. > :33:18.Trade Organisation today? Nothing, it is a blank page. Even as we

:33:18. > :33:22.heard in the defence part of the debate, their defence strategy for

:33:22. > :33:27.NATO - nothing - it is a blank page. The Conservatives don't get it.

:33:27. > :33:32.They don't understand that in the modern world Britain's citizens are

:33:32. > :33:36.stronger and safer when we co- operate and collaborate with our

:33:36. > :33:41.international partners. And that blindness to the need to network in

:33:41. > :33:45.the modern world is at times damaging and at times dangerous.

:33:45. > :33:52.When David Cameron became the Prime Minister of the country in May 2010,

:33:52. > :33:56.he said this, and this is a direct quotation." Afghanistan will be my

:33:56. > :34:00.Government's number one foreign policy priority." Conference, that

:34:00. > :34:07.is as it should be, with thousands of young British men and women

:34:07. > :34:12.still in harm's way in Afghanistan they deserved nothing less. Now, we

:34:12. > :34:18.have heard again from some members of the British Armed Forces on this

:34:18. > :34:22.platform in this debate, they are quite simply the best of British

:34:22. > :34:30.and they deserve, once again, our thanks and appreciation.

:34:30. > :34:36.APPLAUSE But, conference, the young men and

:34:36. > :34:41.women in harm's way in Afghanistan deserve something more than our

:34:41. > :34:47.public applause. They deserve from the British Government a political

:34:47. > :34:50.strategy worthy of their military heroism and their military efforts.

:34:50. > :34:57.And yet, David Cameron, the self same Prime Minister, who told us in

:34:57. > :35:01.May, 2010, that Afghanistan would be his number one foreign policy

:35:01. > :35:07.priority has now not made a single speech on Afghanistan to the House

:35:07. > :35:11.of Commons in 14 months. Conference, that is shameful.

:35:11. > :35:18.That was Douglas Alexander, the shadow Foreign Minister. We will

:35:18. > :35:22.speak to the Shadow Defence Secretary in a few moments. Let's

:35:22. > :35:27.get a flavour of his speech to the Labour Conference in Manchester

:35:27. > :35:31.this morning. We face an enormous challenge. From

:35:31. > :35:35.a Tory Party that behaves like it is born to rule and a Liberal

:35:35. > :35:38.Democrats party determined not to die, we have to address some of the

:35:38. > :35:43.issues in opposition that we would have to address if we were in

:35:43. > :35:46.Government. That's why myself and the shadow defence team have been

:35:46. > :35:51.really clear about the fact we would have to make savings when it

:35:51. > :35:55.comes to defence. That is why I can announce today that the future

:35:55. > :36:01.Labour Government would subject the Ministry of Defence budget to

:36:01. > :36:06.independent expert, external review of all the decisions we take. No

:36:06. > :36:09.smoke, no mirrors, no delays on the big decisions A culture of

:36:09. > :36:16.consequence - no miss match between resources and global ambition. Ours

:36:16. > :36:21.will be a defence-economic policy, alongside a industrial strategy,

:36:21. > :36:24.that proudly celebrates the contribution of 300,000 skilled

:36:24. > :36:30.British workers and the contribution they make to the

:36:30. > :36:36.defence of our country. Now, as we debate all of this, and we discuss

:36:36. > :36:40.our own policy, we should also be clear that politics of course is

:36:40. > :36:43.about emphasiss the -- emphasising the differences between the parties

:36:43. > :36:47.but also about making a difference. While we are out of Government we

:36:47. > :36:50.are not totally out of power. That is why we have launched the

:36:50. > :36:55.campaigns to support and end discrimination against our Armed

:36:55. > :36:59.Forces. Why we are campaigning so hard to support veterans, carers

:36:59. > :37:05.and why we are campaigning to extend the Armed Forces kove

:37:05. > :37:10.vernapblt. It is why we have introduced the veterans' interview

:37:10. > :37:14.programme, you have heard of. It is trying to deal with a very real

:37:14. > :37:20.difficulty. It is simply wrong that a man or woman who served in

:37:20. > :37:25.Afghanistan, who served our nation so ferociously and so bravely, that

:37:25. > :37:31.they come back from Afghanistan to a hero's welcome, to a public

:37:32. > :37:34.parade in their town, city, and there's flag-waving, only to be

:37:34. > :37:40.sacked thereafters by their Government and told as well to take

:37:40. > :37:45.the place at the back of the queue in the local Jobcentre. I tell you,

:37:45. > :37:48.it's wrong. It's unfair, it's unjust. It should not be happening.

:37:48. > :37:57.I give you a guarantee, under the next Labour Government it will not

:37:57. > :38:01.happen. APPLAUSE

:38:01. > :38:07.That's why I can announce today that the Labour Party will be the

:38:07. > :38:12.first and only party to adopt a procedure, the principals of the

:38:12. > :38:16.Armed Forces kove ver napbt because nobody, no member -- covenant,

:38:16. > :38:19.because no member of the Armed Forces should face discrimination,

:38:19. > :38:25.in employment, housing, health or any other walk of life, including

:38:25. > :38:29.in politics and in the Labour Party. Social justice and human rights are

:38:29. > :38:34.the very reason for our existence. They are why we are Labour. For

:38:34. > :38:39.this movement now and through history, social justice has no

:38:39. > :38:44.borders, only new front years to be conquered. That's why I am

:38:44. > :38:49.delighted to announce the party which created Sure Start in Britain

:38:49. > :38:50.will also be the party which champions the case for prioritising

:38:50. > :39:00.early years development across the world.

:39:00. > :39:01.

:39:01. > :39:04.APPLAUSE I have asked the founder and First

:39:04. > :39:10.Minister for Sure Start and architect of our Olympic success to

:39:10. > :39:17.lead a global campaign to ensure an integrated approach to early years

:39:17. > :39:22.is at the new post of the 2015 global framework. I am delighted

:39:22. > :39:28.that Sarah Brown, patron of the White Ribbon Alliance, who has done

:39:28. > :39:33.so much, has agreed to sum port Tessa in her new -- support Tessa

:39:33. > :39:37.in her new role. If all the evidence demonstrates investment in

:39:37. > :39:41.the earliest years makes the most difference to our children's lives,

:39:41. > :39:49.the same evidence must apply to the health, education and parenting of

:39:49. > :39:58.the poorest children in the world. Conference, as staunch defenders of

:39:58. > :40:02.development, we must be reformers. Like any department, who is not

:40:02. > :40:06.immune to resources. The greater the risks we are taking. We should

:40:06. > :40:10.be honest about that. My value for money test will be

:40:10. > :40:20.what difference is our spending making to the poorest? And whether

:40:20. > :40:24.

:40:25. > :40:29.it is country bueting to an end to The last time Labour was in

:40:29. > :40:34.opposition it came up with the idea of an ethical foreign policy. It

:40:34. > :40:38.went on to commit British troops into Kosovo and Sears and of course

:40:38. > :40:44.invade Afghanistan and Iraq. It was not what most of us thought was

:40:44. > :40:54.ethical. What can Labour do to create a foreign policy for the

:40:54. > :40:58.

:40:58. > :41:03.The architect of an ethical foreign policy. The advocate of the case

:41:03. > :41:07.for foreign wars. The most pressing foreign policy problem we face,

:41:07. > :41:12.therefore, is to identify the circumstances in which we should

:41:13. > :41:16.get actively involved in other people's conflicts. And its logical

:41:16. > :41:22.conclusion. New Labour foreign policy - designed in opposition,

:41:22. > :41:25.forged in the real world. New Labour turned out to be one of the

:41:25. > :41:31.most interventionalists of Governments. Its legacy can still

:41:31. > :41:38.be felt. According to one of the key players, maybe not as you would

:41:38. > :41:41.imagine. Is a continuity between Tony Blair's Chicago speech in 1999,

:41:41. > :41:45.which proceeded our Kosovo intervention and from what David

:41:45. > :41:54.Cameron is arguing for in Syria. What David Cameron has been arguing

:41:54. > :41:57.for, not least in his speech to the UN General Assembly has been

:41:57. > :42:01.liberal intervention. Putting into practise the concept of the

:42:01. > :42:04.responsibility of the international community to protect. Maybe. Iraq

:42:05. > :42:08.was the moment many people inside and outside the party broke faith

:42:08. > :42:13.with Tony Blair and new Labour, which must have a profound effect

:42:13. > :42:18.on how it designs foreign policy for the future. Labour is trying to

:42:18. > :42:22.get back to liberal intervenalism, as Tony Blair outlined in 1999.

:42:23. > :42:26.Iraq and Afghanistan have left us with a bit of a downer in terms of

:42:26. > :42:32.foreign policy and defence policy. Labour is trying to get its

:42:32. > :42:35.confidence back, saying a more ethical world is a world which will

:42:35. > :42:40.be better for British foreign policy in general. How much can a

:42:40. > :42:45.party in opposition really do about future foreign policy? The only

:42:45. > :42:48.thing you can do in opposition is make as many contacts as you can

:42:48. > :42:51.with leaders and potential leaders around the world. Opposition

:42:51. > :42:55.parties find that difficult to do, partly because it is expensive and

:42:55. > :43:00.it runs the risk of looking as if the front bench team are on junkets

:43:00. > :43:03.all over the world. There's a good point to that - it is really

:43:03. > :43:08.important to establish personal relationships. Time and time again

:43:08. > :43:11.in foreign policy it is when people know each other than they -- that

:43:11. > :43:16.they establish a rapport which becomes a positive piece of foreign

:43:16. > :43:21.policy. You should avoid labels which may come back to haunt you.

:43:21. > :43:24.understood why Robin branded his foreign policy as ethical. He was

:43:24. > :43:31.against the "arms to Iraq" scandal and so on. I would not have done

:43:31. > :43:36.knit the same way, because it has - - it was hung around Robin's neck.

:43:36. > :43:42.I quietly abandoned the label, without abandoning a sense I was

:43:42. > :43:47.acting in an ethical way. He could not predict that new Labour would

:43:47. > :43:52.oversee five conflicts. Opposition parties can design foreign policy.

:43:52. > :43:57.Ultimately events dictate it. Well the Shadow Defence Secretary, Jim

:43:57. > :44:02.Murphy, he is in Manchester. We can talk to him now. Good morning Mr

:44:02. > :44:08.Murphy. Good morning, Andrew. defence cuts would you make that

:44:08. > :44:12.are not being made at the moment? Well, we have identified billions

:44:12. > :44:17.of pounds of savings it would make. I will not put a percentage on it.

:44:17. > :44:21.We are working through that now. We will look at the process the

:44:21. > :44:26.Government should have gone through - a proper security and Defence

:44:26. > :44:31.Review. As you know, and it has been said, the Government came in

:44:31. > :44:36.with a question in mind, which is how deeply can we cut we are going

:44:36. > :44:40.through a process, which says what is Britain's role in the world?

:44:40. > :44:44.What size defence budget do you need? That is why the announcement

:44:44. > :44:48.I made at the conference today, well, it might sound technical, it

:44:48. > :44:53.is important, which is we're going to, the Labour Government at the

:44:53. > :44:56.next election, we'll have a ten- year defence budget, so over two

:44:56. > :45:01.Parliaments. There'll be real-time, expert review of the decisions we

:45:01. > :45:06.make in defence. As you know, as you watch these things closely,

:45:06. > :45:12.what happens is a Defence Secretary gets asked what happened 10-12

:45:12. > :45:15.years about his or her predecessor five times removed. We want real-

:45:15. > :45:18.times scrutiny. Some of the things which are affecting Labour and

:45:18. > :45:22.affecting the Conservatives today are not repeated. I think that is a

:45:22. > :45:32.good thing. You said you have identified billions of pounds of

:45:32. > :45:33.

:45:33. > :45:37.defence cuts which could be made. We said we would bring troops back

:45:37. > :45:41.from Germany earlier if it would save money. We said we would accept

:45:41. > :45:46.some of the cuts in the Navy and some of the freeze in the

:45:47. > :45:51.allowances of the armed forces. Get rid of some of the top heavy armed

:45:51. > :45:56.forces, very top-heavy in terms of the size of the armed forces in

:45:56. > :46:01.comparison to the numbers of the numbers we need at the top in terms

:46:01. > :46:06.of senior ranks. As we go through our defence policy review process,

:46:06. > :46:16.we will keep identifying savings we would make. A lot of these are cups

:46:16. > :46:21.that the Government is making that you say you support. -- cuts. What

:46:21. > :46:27.I'm asking is, what cuts would you make in the Defence the Budget of

:46:27. > :46:34.that are not already been made? are identified one in my earlier

:46:34. > :46:38.answer. We itch one was that? will look at it in much more

:46:39. > :46:43.forensically in the amount of senior officers we have. The amount

:46:43. > :46:49.of cuts in the junior ranks across the armed forces, we have not had

:46:49. > :46:54.the same process in the senior ranks. It would be important.

:46:54. > :47:03.Things like Nimrod, we do not like the decision, we accept it, we

:47:03. > :47:09.wouldn't reverse it. It is a list. I am looking for new cuts. It was

:47:09. > :47:16.clear throughout the Labour years, and long before that the British

:47:16. > :47:20.military was top-heavy, we had more admirals than Royal Navy ships.

:47:20. > :47:28.Even if you were to put that right, and you did not in 13 years, it is

:47:28. > :47:33.peanuts, not billions. Let me have one final go, I am trying to get

:47:33. > :47:38.you to tell me what cuts in defence you would make that it would be

:47:38. > :47:43.substantive and save billions that are not already been made? We are

:47:43. > :47:50.going through that process at the moment. I know what is behind the

:47:50. > :47:58.question, and it is a fair enough approach. We will go into the

:47:58. > :48:03.election with the aid costed policy on what cuts we would make. You

:48:03. > :48:07.wouldn't expect me to announce in the middle of a second recession

:48:07. > :48:13.what the defence budget would be like in 10 years' time. It is not

:48:13. > :48:18.how a family runs its home finances and it is not how the Ministry of

:48:18. > :48:24.Defence runs its finances. A know when I am beaten. But let me see if

:48:24. > :48:31.I can get an answer on this, are you in favour of British Aerospace

:48:31. > :48:36.merging with the 80 s, are you in favour of them being the big Airbus

:48:36. > :48:41.manufacturer? A I am meeting both of the companies in Manchester and

:48:41. > :48:49.making -- meeting to trade unions. Our approach is how does it affect

:48:49. > :48:56.the UK defence sovereignty? Will we be able to manufacture a

:48:56. > :49:02.capability? But importantly, what does it mean for the workers in

:49:02. > :49:06.this country? How many redundancies would there be? It is clear as the

:49:06. > :49:10.changes in defence budgets across the world in recent years, US at

:49:10. > :49:15.the moment, Germany, France and Europe, we will have to find

:49:15. > :49:20.different ways of doing it. So this potential merger has the chance of

:49:20. > :49:26.creating an industrial giant with a very big UK footprint. So you are

:49:26. > :49:31.in favour of it? As you would expect, things have got to change.

:49:31. > :49:36.The companies themselves are coming to see me at Manchester to make

:49:36. > :49:41.their case. I hope to be the Defence Secretary, but there is

:49:41. > :49:47.another important issue, the UK has a golden share in BAe at the moment.

:49:47. > :49:54.What would it means that these two companies for the UK tax perk and

:49:54. > :49:59.that industry? -- tax payer. Staying with us Mr Murphy, I want

:49:59. > :50:02.to move on to the issue of Europe. Now there's a whispering in

:50:02. > :50:10.Westminster circles that the PM is toying with the idea of a

:50:10. > :50:16.referendum on Europe, should the Conservatives win the next election.

:50:16. > :50:20.I suggest that is what he wants his backbenchers to think. Would Labour

:50:20. > :50:24.support the idea? We sent Adam out with an awful lot of balls to find

:50:24. > :50:29.out. Let's find out what Labour Party members think of this idea

:50:29. > :50:35.about offering a referendum on the EU. I have got the balls, and there

:50:35. > :50:41.is the box. There is no point asking a question about backing out

:50:41. > :50:49.of Europe. I am a European and I am happy to be European. A Yes. Why is

:50:49. > :50:54.that? I think it is a waste of time at the moment. There are far more

:50:54. > :50:59.pressing issues we should be spending our time on. Why did you

:50:59. > :51:04.say yes? The legitimacy of the opinion has come under questioning

:51:04. > :51:07.from the right and the left. It is about time people from a new

:51:07. > :51:13.regeneration should have the opportunity to say if they should

:51:13. > :51:20.support it. It is my favourite subject. I would happily take 1000

:51:20. > :51:25.of them balls and put them in the No box. Someone has just given me

:51:25. > :51:32.this, five reasons why the EU is better for Britain. The situation

:51:32. > :51:38.at the moment it is good. It is good? In the EU? It's works for us.

:51:38. > :51:43.I understand whether people would understand the issues properly.

:51:43. > :51:48.They are not Democratic people, they vote on other reasons, whether

:51:48. > :51:54.they hate in Nick Clegg, for example. Hitler favoured

:51:54. > :52:02.referendums. This is a former minister, what does he think?

:52:02. > :52:06.have to answer the telephone. Boring. Definitely not. Why not?

:52:07. > :52:12.have one, decided to become members and that a referendum was passed

:52:12. > :52:19.with a more than two thirds majority. I wasn't even born then!

:52:19. > :52:23.But I was. Why have a referendum on EU membership and up the UN

:52:23. > :52:30.membership, the United Nations? person in the street would be

:52:30. > :52:35.saying, how come these guys in prison are getting a vote? How come

:52:35. > :52:41.they are getting human-rights when the mice had just murdered somebody.

:52:41. > :52:48.When they have done an inhuman act, why should... Because of Europe?

:52:48. > :52:53.Yes, because of Europe. Katie, D match used -- do you wear shoes to

:52:53. > :52:58.match the balls? The people like the idea of referendums, but we're

:52:58. > :53:02.having a referendum in Scotland in two years on independence. We don't

:53:02. > :53:06.want to be a country where we have referendums every five minutes, but

:53:06. > :53:11.at some point we need to have that debate. We have been celebrating

:53:11. > :53:15.the Olympic Games. We applauded all the other competitors from other

:53:15. > :53:20.countries and recognised there was good from other countries even if

:53:20. > :53:25.we didn't win everything. It is clear, the big majority voting

:53:25. > :53:30.against. The only referendum happening around here on the EU is

:53:31. > :53:34.this one. Let's go back to Jim Murphy who has

:53:35. > :53:38.been waiting patiently in Manchester. Under what

:53:38. > :53:43.circumstances, if any, would Labour give the British people a

:53:43. > :53:50.referendum on Europe? I think there will have to be a referendum on the

:53:50. > :53:53.European Union. In Scotland, we have tussled with the issue over

:53:53. > :53:58.the Scottish relationship with the United Kingdom. I think it will be

:53:58. > :54:03.settled when we have a referendum on Scotland's membership of the

:54:03. > :54:07.Union, the United Kingdom. A relationship with de you will be

:54:07. > :54:13.settled once we have a referendum on the union of Europe. It won't

:54:13. > :54:17.stop the argument. The day after the referendum and the decision,

:54:17. > :54:22.people were still argue for independence. And if the s campaign

:54:22. > :54:27.wins, the argument will continue to be fixated by Europe. It is

:54:27. > :54:31.important, but in terms of the time line, it is not for me to announce.

:54:31. > :54:35.But it is important we have that referendum. I don't think it is

:54:35. > :54:41.today, all within the next year, but it should happen. You say at

:54:41. > :54:47.some point, it should happen. Can you give us any indication at what

:54:47. > :54:52.that means? What referendum will it be? Will it be an inch out

:54:52. > :54:55.referendum? David Cameron, as you said, is toying with the idea

:54:55. > :55:02.because he has to go to this conference next week. I'm asking

:55:02. > :55:08.about you? Of course, but we're not under that sense of pressure within

:55:08. > :55:13.the party. We have a view that it is good for the United Kingdom to

:55:13. > :55:17.be engaged in the Europe. Not in the euro but engaged in Europe. In

:55:17. > :55:21.terms of the timescale, we can work through that. But it shouldn't be

:55:21. > :55:25.in the midst of a financial crisis that is affecting the globe. We

:55:25. > :55:30.need to get through this recession, get through the Euro crisis before

:55:30. > :55:35.we do that. There is big change coming to Europe, the 17 nations of

:55:35. > :55:39.the Euro themselves are going to have a closer union. At the end of

:55:39. > :55:43.that, Europe will look different. If we come through that and the

:55:43. > :55:50.financial crisis, after that the time for a referendum would be upon

:55:50. > :55:59.us. You cannot give me any idea when it would be, or whether it

:55:59. > :56:05.would be an in or out referendum. It is not a policy to me? I did not

:56:05. > :56:09.give you a proper answer, I think it should be and in or out

:56:09. > :56:15.referendum when the time comes, the same of Scotland whether they want

:56:15. > :56:19.to be part of the Union. It is a sensible way to do it. I don't have

:56:19. > :56:24.a calendar with a date circled, we will do it when the time is right,

:56:24. > :56:30.which means getting through the financial crisis and having a

:56:30. > :56:34.potter -- proper debate and referendum. If you look at, not

:56:34. > :56:39.your timescale because you have not given be one, but the debate coming

:56:39. > :56:45.up in Europe, it looks like the eurozone countries will be moving

:56:45. > :56:47.to a more federal type Europe, which I assume we want to be part.

:56:47. > :56:52.Because at night the you or the Conservatives think we should be

:56:52. > :56:56.part of Europe. Should we joined the eurozone in a federal type of

:56:56. > :57:00.Europe, but stay out of it, but stay in the European Union, under

:57:00. > :57:08.new terms, or should be get out altogether? Unlike in Scotland it

:57:08. > :57:12.seems to me you may have A3 to his question? I am not a fan of eight

:57:12. > :57:21.pick-and-mix, multiple-choice referendum. You end up with the

:57:21. > :57:27.option which may only gain 40% support. Any referendum should be

:57:27. > :57:30.set by Electoral Commission. But instinctively, I am more inclined

:57:30. > :57:36.to and in and out referendum rather than a multiple choice of voting

:57:36. > :57:42.system, that leads to a few choices. There is a Maltese be Europe

:57:42. > :57:47.already. It is already with us, we just happen not to be in the

:57:47. > :57:52.vanguard of that European politics, because we are outside the Europe -

:57:52. > :57:56.- Europe. Whenever the referendum comes, almost everyone in the

:57:56. > :58:01.Labour party, probably along with the Lib Dems, British business and

:58:01. > :58:05.unions will argue we stay part of the European Union because it is

:58:05. > :58:14.good for the economy and good for Britain. If I thought it was bad

:58:14. > :58:19.for Britain, I wouldn't want to be part of it. Mr Murphy, thanks.

:58:19. > :58:25.We are expecting Ed Balls to begin his speech about 12:10pm, and we

:58:25. > :58:29.are told the subject is rescuing the economy. The Chancellor Best

:58:29. > :58:34.Shadow Chancellor said he wouldn't reverse any coalition spending cuts

:58:34. > :58:41.at the 2015. But that wouldn't stop Ed Balls offering George Osborne

:58:41. > :58:47.advice on how to handle the economy. And now he's going to announce a

:58:47. > :58:52.housebuilding plan using the proceeds from the sale of the 4G

:58:52. > :58:58.phone licences. Does it make sense to build a housebuilding policy on

:58:58. > :59:04.a sale of Spectrum which we don't even know is going to happen yet?

:59:04. > :59:08.It makes sense to get something to move the economy pulls stop

:59:08. > :59:13.building 100,000 homes is a sensible policy. It is a short time

:59:13. > :59:18.boost to the economy. We have lost thousands of construction jobs over

:59:18. > :59:25.the last few years. He get people back in work and the economy moving.

:59:25. > :59:30.And there is a long-term effect, it is something back gets the economy

:59:30. > :59:37.moving now and give you long-term benefit. I understand the case for

:59:37. > :59:41.investing in the housing, people go back to the 1930s and say it helped,

:59:41. > :59:46.the recession then. Which was shorter than the one we are having

:59:46. > :59:52.now. But financing it with the spectrum auction which hasn't

:59:52. > :59:59.happened, and you do not know what it is going to be, which is tied up

:59:59. > :00:07.in litigation, it does not sound like the sound basis for Keynesian

:00:07. > :00:13.He wants to be able to show it is a costed policy. I think the

:00:13. > :00:19.estimates are �3 billion-�4 billion. This policy seems well costed, even

:00:19. > :00:26.using the lower estimate. This has been in litigation for four years -

:00:26. > :00:31.these 4G licences. I am suspicious that it suddenly produces 100,000

:00:31. > :00:39.homes. Why? It is a nice round number, isn't it? At the end of the

:00:39. > :00:45.day, this is peanuts. This is trying to distinguish Balls' fiscal

:00:45. > :00:50.policy from Osborne's fiscal policy. �3 billion will not impact on the

:00:50. > :00:54.economy. It could impact on the economy, couldn't it? Use it for

:00:54. > :01:00.deficit reduction if and when this money materialised. Let's use it

:01:00. > :01:03.for infrastructure, let's use it for digital infrastructure. A lot

:01:03. > :01:09.of small businesses in the construction - house building and

:01:09. > :01:14.providing the fixtures and fittingings. Wouldn't members like

:01:14. > :01:20.to see... There is land designated to build 300,000 homes. Wouldn't

:01:20. > :01:23.this get towards a third of this figure? It could do. When we are

:01:23. > :01:31.spending the Government's money or public money, the Government is

:01:31. > :01:36.spending that, we have to focus on what will boost long-term growth.

:01:36. > :01:41.Isn't housing infrastructure, when you have to build sewers, roads and

:01:41. > :01:46.ditches. We all now the key challenges we all face in the UK.

:01:46. > :01:51.That is a huge issue. We are not allocating the resources to that

:01:51. > :01:56.that we need. The 4G money, if it materialises, would be better

:01:56. > :02:00.putting in that direction. The fundamental problem with the UK

:02:00. > :02:04.construction industry - yes there is a demand problem, but there is a

:02:05. > :02:12.supply problem. We talk about people not getting on the housing

:02:12. > :02:16.ladder. The big reason is... What do you say to that? What do you say

:02:16. > :02:20.to his members? We have to step back and look at the last two years.

:02:21. > :02:26.The long-term picture of the UK economy of the last two years is of

:02:26. > :02:30.stagnation. We had a little growth - too weak. We fell back into a

:02:30. > :02:34.double-dip recession... So the picture is two years of stagnation.

:02:34. > :02:40.There is a terrible squeeze on living standards. Banks are not

:02:40. > :02:44.prepared to lend. There is what is happening in the eurozone. There is

:02:44. > :02:49.the contraction. I am not saying austerity alone is to blame for two

:02:49. > :02:52.years of stagnation, but it has contributed to it. When you have a

:02:52. > :02:56.global crisis, you have a squeeze in living standards, banks which

:02:56. > :03:00.cannot lend - that is the time the Government should be stimulating

:03:00. > :03:05.the economy, stimulating demand, rather than pulling in the wrong

:03:05. > :03:15.way. You think Ed is the solution there, I think Meryvn is the

:03:15. > :03:16.

:03:16. > :03:21.solution. I think the monetary policy is a bazooka. We've had �375

:03:21. > :03:29.billion. Andrew we would have had a depression without quantitative

:03:29. > :03:36.easing. That is a lesson from the '30s. Thanks to Mr Bern bern and Mr

:03:36. > :03:41.King in London, it has not stimulated the economy. It has

:03:41. > :03:44.prevented things from being worse.... It is the stimulus bit we

:03:44. > :03:50.are arguing about! We don't have quantitative easinging to the level

:03:50. > :03:57.the blang want it. They want money -- Bank of England want it. They

:03:57. > :04:04.want money supply grow up to 6%. We are nudging 3% at the moment.

:04:04. > :04:11.prize of the Antiques Roadshow. He has just passed his Grade I piano

:04:11. > :04:16.exam. He is regarded as a bruiser and likes to bake cakes. I think he

:04:16. > :04:20.likes to bake cakes. Paul Kenny from the GMB union thinks he would

:04:20. > :04:24.give an aspirin a headache. I am not sure how that would work, but

:04:24. > :04:29.there you go. In a few moments the Shadow Chancellor will take to the

:04:29. > :04:35.floor of the Conference. The second biggest speech of the week. The

:04:35. > :04:42.other being Mr Miliband tomorrow. What is he like? We sent Adam to

:04:42. > :04:52.find out. A brilliant mind, lazy at carry yolk I can. Have you ever had

:04:52. > :04:55.one -- Kareoke. Have you ever had one of his cakes? No. People in

:04:55. > :04:59.politics have strong opinions. Speaking as I found him, when I had

:04:59. > :05:04.to work closely with him when he was Education Minister, I was

:05:04. > :05:08.Justice Minister, I found him a very, very good minister. He gets

:05:08. > :05:13.under the skin of David Cameron like nobody else. When he sits

:05:13. > :05:19.there and he's muttering and flat- lining hand signals and things like

:05:19. > :05:23.this, part of the theatre of Parliament is personality and he

:05:23. > :05:27.has a personality. This cafe is full of the rank and file. Let's

:05:27. > :05:32.find out what ordinary party members think about him. He is reg

:05:32. > :05:37.-- He has recognised we need a policy for growth and demand in the

:05:37. > :05:43.economy is critical. That is something in both respects that the

:05:43. > :05:49.coalition Government have neglected. I also saw him dancing at the

:05:49. > :05:53.Diversity night. Is he a good dancer? He S What sort of moves?

:05:53. > :05:58.Good moves. He is an excellent person. I think people are warming

:05:58. > :06:02.to him. He's very approachable and also, of course, he's got the

:06:02. > :06:06.ability to see through on detail. That is what his party think of him.

:06:06. > :06:10.What is his reputation with the press?

:06:10. > :06:14.I just think Miliband has to show that he's master of his own

:06:15. > :06:18.finances while Balls is there, it ain't possible. I quite like him. I

:06:18. > :06:22.never, ever thought I would say that. If you said that to me two or

:06:22. > :06:26.three years ago, I would have laughed in your face. He is a

:06:26. > :06:30.likable individual. He has a side to his personality, he needs to be

:06:30. > :06:36.doing something outside politics to give him a challenge. He ran the

:06:36. > :06:44.marathon. He is now learning to play the piano. Goodness knows what

:06:44. > :06:50.he has lined up next. Nick Robinson joins us live. The main bit of the

:06:50. > :06:55.speech, this 4G licence, it has been well trailed. He's had a

:06:55. > :06:59.kicking from Mr McCluskey of Unite, on public spending squeeze. Is this

:06:59. > :07:03.going to be a tougher speech than he might have thought? I don't know

:07:03. > :07:07.if it will be tougher. It is not the backdrop, in one sense, he

:07:07. > :07:11.would have wanted. If you are Ed Balls fighting the unions about

:07:11. > :07:18.being too tough on public spending, is not a bad place to be. Len

:07:18. > :07:24.McCluskey, the General Secretary of Unite, who started this con--

:07:24. > :07:29.Conference by saying he wanted to kick the Blairite birds out after

:07:29. > :07:34.the nest, he has spoken on this floor and opposed the policy of

:07:34. > :07:39.backing public pay restraint. 1% over the next two years. He said it

:07:39. > :07:43.is a false choice to trade lower pay for more jobs. Precisely what

:07:43. > :07:47.Ed Miliband and Ed Balls have said. He used a lively phase about saying,

:07:47. > :07:53."it is time they came out of the shadows," he said. They were

:07:53. > :08:02.nervous the men from Unite. When he had a go at Ed, people might think

:08:02. > :08:06.he was going at Ed Miliband. No, we are told he meant Ed Balls, the

:08:06. > :08:10.Shadow Chancellor. Since they share the policy it adds up to the same

:08:10. > :08:15.thing. Let's hear what Len McCluskey had to say. He's the

:08:15. > :08:19.union leader of Unite. It is the biggest union in the country. He

:08:19. > :08:27.seemed to have a go at Ed Balls here and it went down very well

:08:27. > :08:35.with the faithful. No more false choices, please of jobs or wages.

:08:35. > :08:40.Low wages, paid by big companies... APPLAUSE

:08:40. > :08:44.Conference, low wages paid by big companies depress demand and jobs.

:08:44. > :08:49.We end one the taxpayers subsidising poverty pay. So I say

:08:49. > :08:57.to Ed, a public spending squeeze while the City continues to let rip

:08:57. > :09:02.is simply not acceptable. APPLAUSE

:09:02. > :09:08.Conference, asking the poorest for further sacrifices for a crisis

:09:08. > :09:14.that they did not cause is the road to political ruin and to defeat at

:09:14. > :09:18.the next general election. It is time for Labour to want -- for once

:09:18. > :09:24.and for all to turn their back on the neo-liberalism of the past,

:09:24. > :09:28.reject the siren voices, Ed, from those whose policies and philosophy

:09:28. > :09:33.have been discredited and embrace the radical alternative the country

:09:33. > :09:43.wants and which is the only way, the only way Conference, Labour

:09:43. > :09:47.

:09:47. > :09:53.will return to power. I move. Well, Nick, there comes a time,

:09:53. > :09:58.even in today's well-controlled disciplined Conferences of all the

:09:58. > :10:01.parties, suddenly someone says what the party faithful are thinking,

:10:01. > :10:05.which is not what the party leadership is thinking. Did we just

:10:05. > :10:14.see an example of that? Yes, I think a lot of people are like that.

:10:14. > :10:19.It took a while to warm up. It is a rather dead Conference hall. A big

:10:19. > :10:24.hangar of a place. They there are fewer people in the hall. There's

:10:24. > :10:27.less of an atmosphere, less of an tispaigs that there'll be trouble.

:10:28. > :10:32.The motion that Len McCluskey was pushing was originally designed to

:10:32. > :10:35.be a motion that tweaked the tail of the Labour leadership by

:10:36. > :10:43.opposing calls for public sector pay restraint. In the end, through

:10:43. > :10:47.this odd bolting bits of motions from different people, it ended up

:10:47. > :10:51.noting the policy. No problem for the Labour leadership if the motion

:10:51. > :10:53.goes through. As you say, Andrew, actually from the hall to the

:10:53. > :10:59.pleasure of quite a large percentage, my guess would be and

:10:59. > :11:05.it is only a guess, it felt to me in the hall half or two-thirds of

:11:05. > :11:09.the hall were warmly applauding Mr McCluskey, did hear a call for a

:11:09. > :11:13.radical alternative rather than a pale shadow of coalition austerity.

:11:13. > :11:17.Mr McCluskey is the biggest union leader in the land, in terms of the

:11:17. > :11:21.numbers in his union. His union has given �6 million to the Labour

:11:21. > :11:26.Party. He gave an interview to the Sunday Times at the weekend beating

:11:26. > :11:30.up on the Blairites. There he was making a speech to the Labour

:11:30. > :11:35.conference and then the cut away, as he walked away, as our viewers

:11:35. > :11:39.saw there, there were empty seat after empty seat, after empty seat.

:11:39. > :11:48.They cannot turn up for the biggest bank rolling union leader in the

:11:48. > :11:51.land? No. It is because there is an understanding that the debates

:11:51. > :11:55.don't matter any more. Essentially what you are doing if you go into

:11:55. > :11:59.that hall is you are hearing a series of people lining up to

:11:59. > :12:03.compete to condemn the coalition or praise whatever idea they are in

:12:03. > :12:07.favour of. Many are seeking a career in politics. They are

:12:07. > :12:11.showing off in front of the people who might promote them. The more

:12:11. > :12:16.junior ministers are trying to make a good show in front of them and in

:12:16. > :12:23.front of journalists. There are rare moments in which you feel

:12:23. > :12:27.something is being decided. That was a rare moment, if not decided

:12:27. > :12:32.there was an actual debate taking place. Even Len McCluskey, who has

:12:32. > :12:40.been willing to cause trouble for the leadership said no, when I

:12:40. > :12:43.attack Ed, I am not attacking that Ed, I am not attacking that Ed. Ed

:12:43. > :12:48.Balls's policy, which was to say that public sector pay restraint

:12:48. > :12:53.was right now, does not tell us what he would do in office. A

:12:53. > :12:59.series of things we will hear from the speech beg the question - yes,

:12:59. > :13:04.you would spend this 4G spectrum sale, in other words when you sell

:13:04. > :13:08.off the spectrum made freebie these 4G phones, you would have raised

:13:08. > :13:13.money. Of course that would happen if Labour got into office by 2015.

:13:13. > :13:17.What does it actually really tell us about Labour's priority? All it

:13:17. > :13:21.tells us is that by instinct the Labour leadership have decided they

:13:21. > :13:25.still think it is right to say to the public that you can spend your

:13:25. > :13:29.way out of some of the economic problems. They think the coalition

:13:29. > :13:33.will soon be proved wrong in their claim that austerity is the route

:13:33. > :13:38.to getting the deficit down and therefore the route to getting

:13:38. > :13:42.growth. Mr Balls has a complicated message, because it seems his

:13:42. > :13:47.position is, yes, he's saying the deficit is too big, but in the

:13:47. > :13:52.short-term we'll make it bigger and then later on we'll make it smaller.

:13:52. > :13:56.I think instinctively that is a hard concept for people to gasp?

:13:56. > :14:03.is a hard concept, but if you put it in a different way it is easier.

:14:03. > :14:09.If you say, he will use words not dissimilar, look, if you put people

:14:09. > :14:14.out of work and they are not paying taxes, then the tax-take of the

:14:14. > :14:18.Government stkpwos down, then the - - goes down. Then you are in a

:14:18. > :14:22.spiral where it gets worse. In a sense, you and I and many other

:14:22. > :14:28.people watching, those classic economics, The View that you have

:14:28. > :14:31.to spend in bad times in order to get the economy moving again. What

:14:31. > :14:37.is striking when you look at the market research and I have talked

:14:37. > :14:43.to people on both sides and the BBC does its own market research, to

:14:43. > :14:45.see how our broadcasts are understood, the wording you use

:14:45. > :14:50.drastically changes people's response. If the Tories point out

:14:50. > :14:55.the deficit has fallen by 5% since they have fallen to office, their -

:14:55. > :14:58.- 25% since they have fallen to office, their confidence will soar.

:14:58. > :15:03.If Ed Balls points out something which is true, which is this year

:15:03. > :15:07.borrowing has gone up 20%, Labour's representation for economic

:15:07. > :15:10.competence goes up and the Tories go down. Both are part of the

:15:10. > :15:14.debate. It is a sense and illustration of the fact that the

:15:14. > :15:18.public are anxious but don't know which way to turn. There must be

:15:18. > :15:22.concern, is there not, that in the Labour high command, that at a time

:15:22. > :15:26.when there's been no economic growth since the coalition came to

:15:26. > :15:31.power, real living standards have been squeezed, worse than at any

:15:31. > :15:35.time since the 1920s, as you say, the deficit which is kind of the

:15:35. > :15:41.reason the coalition is rising again in this financial year and I

:15:41. > :15:46.could go on and on with the economic gloom, that the polls

:15:46. > :15:50.suggest that the coalition or more Cameron and Mr Ostoss still -- Mr

:15:50. > :16:00.Cameron and Mr Osborne still have more credible than Mr Miliband and

:16:00. > :16:01.

:16:01. > :16:06.The country is still giving the new Government the benefit of the doubt.

:16:06. > :16:11.Of course people are still angry and frustration about what happened.

:16:11. > :16:17.The inclination of the people is to say, let's give this new lot a try.

:16:17. > :16:23.What they are banking on is when the Chancellor stands on November

:16:23. > :16:28.5th, what he does his he publishes a forecast, an independent forecast

:16:28. > :16:33.from the Office for Budget Responsibility, about whether he

:16:33. > :16:38.will meet his own rules. He has two rules, and he's likely, not

:16:38. > :16:43.definite, but likely to miss the first one and quite likely to miss

:16:43. > :16:48.the second one as well. They are hoping and believing the electorate

:16:48. > :16:53.will look at that and say, it isn't working, we must go down the route

:16:53. > :16:57.of the Labour alternative. But the Government accounting on it or not

:16:57. > :17:07.happen at all and if it is debt that is the problem, the coalition

:17:07. > :17:08.

:17:08. > :17:12.is the answer. Ed Balls is now on his feet at the coalition.

:17:12. > :17:19.We all know what is supposed to happen when -- political parties

:17:19. > :17:25.lose elections, Akram may, division, the party turning in on itself and

:17:25. > :17:31.out of touch with the views of the country. Conference, two years on,

:17:31. > :17:40.in this generation we have booked the that trend.

:17:40. > :17:45.I cannot remember our party being so United, so determined to win

:17:45. > :17:50.back the trust of the people again with our economy in recession and

:17:50. > :17:55.the unfairness of this Tory lead coalition, now laid bare. Let us

:17:55. > :18:03.show we are the people to rebuild Britain, strong and fur for the

:18:03. > :18:09.future. And conference, making a case for

:18:10. > :18:12.change, setting the agenda on reform of our media, banks and

:18:12. > :18:18.responsibility in the economy from top to bottom, showing the strength

:18:18. > :18:22.of purpose and moral conviction which won him the job and get him

:18:22. > :18:28.to Downing Street. Let us pay tribute to my friend, our leader,

:18:28. > :18:38.the next Prime Minister of our country, Ed Miliband.

:18:38. > :18:45.

:18:45. > :18:49.I am proud to serve in his shadow cabinet. Now, with more than 40%

:18:49. > :18:59.women, the first time that as ever happened in British politics.

:18:59. > :19:04.And what a contrast to David Cameron's cabinet. Where the men

:19:04. > :19:09.get the jobs, the women get the sack and only the chaps get the

:19:09. > :19:16.knighthoods. Let me ask you this, what does it take to get sacked

:19:16. > :19:24.from David Cameron's cabinet? Swear at a police officer, call him a

:19:24. > :19:27.pleb and you get defended to the hilt. Get caught red handed texting

:19:27. > :19:32.market sensitive information to News International and you get

:19:33. > :19:37.promoted. Flat line the economy, deliver the most shambolic budget

:19:37. > :19:42.in living memory and you stay in your post. More than that, you are

:19:42. > :19:49.allowed to stay part time. Do all of those things and David Cameron

:19:49. > :19:55.will let you keep your job. But not if you are a woman. What kind of

:19:55. > :20:00.Prime Minister thinks it is fair to sack a 54-year-old woman in his

:20:00. > :20:09.Cabinet because she is to old and then give the job to a 56-year-old

:20:09. > :20:14.man instead? Let Me Tell You, a Prime Minister

:20:14. > :20:19.who only a point five women in the first place, sacks three of them,

:20:19. > :20:29.demotes the of the two, and attacks the Labour leadership for not being

:20:29. > :20:36.

:20:36. > :20:42.bought enough! Porsche! What ever did he mean. If David Cameron is

:20:42. > :20:48.the you see Ch, where does that leave George Osborne? Perhaps this

:20:48. > :20:54.is why George Osborne will never be sacked. A Prime Minister and a

:20:54. > :21:02.Chancellor going down fighting together, and this time, let's see

:21:02. > :21:11.them ride off into the sunset, but Cameron and the flat line kid.

:21:11. > :21:19.And doesn't it feel good to be back in Manchester. Or should I say to

:21:19. > :21:24.be back in Labour Manchester. Four Labour MPs, three world-class

:21:24. > :21:29.universities, two world-beating football teams, one Labour council

:21:29. > :21:39.and not a single Tory councillor in the whole city, not a single one.

:21:39. > :21:44.

:21:44. > :21:50.And, let us pledge today to keep it that way. And elect the brilliance

:21:50. > :22:00.Lucy Powell as Manchester's first ever, Labour woman MP.

:22:00. > :22:04.I can think of no one better to be Manchester's first ever police and

:22:04. > :22:14.crime Commissioner and the wise and respected Tony Lloyd.

:22:14. > :22:16.

:22:16. > :22:21.And conference, at the time of such tragedies for policing in this City

:22:21. > :22:26.D, our whole country remembers two brave officers who lost their lives

:22:26. > :22:31.doing their duty. We paid tribute to all those public servants up and

:22:31. > :22:35.down the country, police officers, firefighters, armed forces, who

:22:35. > :22:45.every day put their lives on the line to keep us safe.

:22:45. > :22:48.

:22:48. > :22:54.And conference, as we rightly praised the success of London 2012,

:22:54. > :22:57.let's not forget it was Manchester's hosting of the 2002

:22:58. > :23:03.Commonwealth Games which showed the way and proved Britain was ready to

:23:03. > :23:07.stage the biggest international sporting events. And conference, we

:23:07. > :23:11.salute Graham Stringer and so Richard lease, and all those who

:23:11. > :23:15.made it possible. We salute those who brought the Olympics to London

:23:16. > :23:22.and made it such a success, Tony Blair, Prince William, Ken Lou

:23:22. > :23:26.Vincent, Gordon Brown, Lord Coe and too many others to mention. None of

:23:26. > :23:31.them would have been able to play their part it not for the one

:23:31. > :23:41.person who made it possible, conference please join me in

:23:41. > :23:57.

:23:57. > :24:03.thanking Dame Tessa Jowell. Conference, it was Tessa's

:24:03. > :24:07.officials who told her it would be a disaster to host the 2012 Games.

:24:07. > :24:12.It would cost too much, the stadiums wouldn't be ready,

:24:12. > :24:17.Transport could not cope, she and she could have listened to those

:24:17. > :24:20.concerns, but she didn't. She persevered, we won and the rest is

:24:20. > :24:25.now part of our national history. There is a lesson we should learn

:24:25. > :24:31.from this. With wise leadership, a long-term vision and a strong

:24:31. > :24:35.partnership between Government and citizens, we can do great things.

:24:35. > :24:41.We can lead the rest of the world, we can rebuild Britain for the

:24:41. > :24:45.future. But, if you listen to the doubters, if you never take a risk,

:24:45. > :24:51.if you flinch when obstacles are in the way, you'll never get anything

:24:51. > :24:57.done. It you spend your whole time fighting short term, political

:24:57. > :25:02.battles, Dave verses Boris, Boris the verses for George, George

:25:02. > :25:06.verses of Ince, you'll never rise to the long-term needs of the

:25:06. > :25:11.country, and in the end you let people down and you lose their

:25:11. > :25:15.trust. And no where is it more obvious than in our economy. Thank

:25:15. > :25:20.goodness the Olympics has given us a short-term shot in the arm that

:25:20. > :25:25.might be enough to take us out of recession this quarter. But that is

:25:25. > :25:29.no substitute for a long-term strategy. Not when families are

:25:30. > :25:33.struggling to make it ends meet, not when fuel and food prices are

:25:33. > :25:38.going up and wages are frozen and tax read its cut. When so many

:25:38. > :25:43.young people have been unable to find work and stay on in education.

:25:43. > :25:48.Not when so many businesses are struggling to raise the finances to

:25:48. > :25:50.survive until the year end. Not when so many working people in the

:25:50. > :25:56.public and private sectors are worried about their jobs and

:25:56. > :26:00.pensions, the human cost of this Government's economic failure.

:26:00. > :26:05.Remember what Dave Cameron, George Osborne and Nick Clegg promised two

:26:05. > :26:11.years ago. Tax rises faster, deeper spending cuts are faster would

:26:11. > :26:16.secure the economy and make Britain a safe haven. That theirs was the

:26:16. > :26:25.only credible plan to deal with the deficit. And, we were all in this

:26:25. > :26:29.together. Conference, the recovery secured, we are just one of only

:26:30. > :26:35.G20 countries in recession. De long as double-dip recession since the

:26:35. > :26:41.Second World War. A credible plan to deal with our deficits, because

:26:41. > :26:47.we are in recession, the deficit is not going down, it is going up. Up

:26:47. > :26:51.by 22% so far this year. Rising borrowing not to invest in the jobs

:26:51. > :26:56.of the future, but to pay for the mounting cost of this Government's

:26:56. > :27:00.economic failure. There is nothing credible about a plan that leads to

:27:00. > :27:06.a double-dip recession, to thousands of businesses going bust,

:27:06. > :27:11.to a million young people out of work, businesses and -- billions

:27:11. > :27:21.wasted on their welfare bill. That is not credible, it is wrong.

:27:21. > :27:25.

:27:25. > :27:31.And as for we are role in this together, we don't hear that line

:27:31. > :27:36.any more. -- all in this together. Not from a Chancellor who presented

:27:36. > :27:42.the most unfair and unpopular budget in a generation. It

:27:42. > :27:49.generation -- Chancellor who tried to raise taxes on pasties,

:27:49. > :27:53.churches... Who tried to raise mansion tax. It used six months'

:27:53. > :28:00.time would try to raise tax from pensioners on the same day he cuts

:28:00. > :28:07.the tax for the riches, a �3 billion tax cut giving �40,000 a

:28:07. > :28:12.year to a millionaire. �40,000 a year! Conference, what kind of

:28:12. > :28:17.Government asks pensioners to pay for a tax cut to millionaires? What

:28:17. > :28:21.kind of Government believes a low- paid women will only work harder if

:28:21. > :28:25.you take away their tax credits and make them worse off, but

:28:25. > :28:35.millionaires will only work harder if you give them a tax cut to make

:28:35. > :28:36.

:28:36. > :28:41.them better off? Isn't this the truth, we know what

:28:41. > :28:46.kind of Government this is, failing on the economy, failing on the

:28:46. > :28:51.deficit and hitting the many to help the privileged few. Arrogant,

:28:51. > :28:57.complacent and out of touch. It is the same old Tory Government. That

:28:57. > :29:02.is what it is. David Cameron, George Osborne, Nick Clegg, the

:29:02. > :29:06.same old Tories, every one of them. But you know what the worst thing

:29:06. > :29:13.is? The two years they have told us all this pain will be worth it in

:29:13. > :29:18.the end. It will be short-term pain for long-term gain. What we are now

:29:18. > :29:22.seeing a short-term pain doing long-term damage in our economy.

:29:23. > :29:27.Look at the facts, over 33,000 companies gone bust since the

:29:27. > :29:32.General Election. Investment plans cancelled or averted overseas,

:29:32. > :29:38.economy is weaker, capacity lost, more prone to inflationary

:29:38. > :29:41.pressures when the recovery finally comes. Child poverty, used

:29:41. > :29:46.unemployment becoming entrenched and damaging them for the rest of

:29:46. > :29:49.their lives. Conference, if we carry on like this, divided

:29:49. > :29:54.coalition muddling through, no vision, waiting for something to

:29:54. > :29:58.turn up, the danger is that two last years become three and four,

:29:58. > :30:03.and we slipped into a lost decade of slow growth, high unemployment

:30:03. > :30:09.and stagnation. Last Investment, lost output, lost jobs, lost

:30:09. > :30:13.exports, a decade when we fail to make investments and reforms we

:30:13. > :30:23.need to make our economy stronger for the future. It does not have to

:30:23. > :30:27.

:30:27. > :30:32.Last year, private investment in Germany rose by 7%. One million

:30:32. > :30:37.extra students enrolled in university in America. China is

:30:37. > :30:45.building 80,000 miles of roads a year and is now planning 70 new

:30:45. > :30:50.airports. Here in Britain, private investment, down 2%. More students,

:30:50. > :30:56.no, over 50,000 fewer and not one of the road projects David Cameron

:30:56. > :31:02.announced last year has even started in construction. When you

:31:02. > :31:09.look at this picture of stagnation and inaction, is it any wonder the

:31:09. > :31:14.deficit is now going up? We warned two years ago that drastic spending

:31:14. > :31:18.cuts and early tax rises, too far, too fast, risked choking off the

:31:18. > :31:26.economy and risked making a difficult situation worse. We

:31:26. > :31:29.warned either learn the lessons of history or repeat the mistakes of

:31:29. > :31:33.history. This is the fundamental truth. If more people are on the

:31:33. > :31:38.dole, not paying tax, you cannot get the deficit down. If businesses

:31:38. > :31:42.are going bust, not hiring new workers, you cannot get the deficit

:31:42. > :31:49.down. If the economy is not growing, you cannot get the deficit down.

:31:49. > :31:52.That is why we must act now, to kick-start the recovery, to tackle

:31:52. > :31:57.rising borrowing, to make our economy stronger. A year ago, in

:31:57. > :32:03.Liverpool, we set out five actions the Government should take then and

:32:03. > :32:09.now to boost growth - tax, bank bonuses and use the money to create

:32:09. > :32:12.jobs for 100,000 young people and 25,000 more homes. Bring forward

:32:13. > :32:18.long-term investment in our infrastructure. Reverse the

:32:18. > :32:23.damaging VAT rise. Give every small firm, taking on extra workers a

:32:23. > :32:27.one-year national insurance tax break. Cut VAT to 5% for a year on

:32:27. > :32:30.home improvements. Conference, since last year, David Cameron's

:32:30. > :32:40.Government has done next to nothing. Their economic plan is failing.

:32:40. > :32:45.They don't know what to do. Plan A, plan B, plan A plus. With this

:32:45. > :32:51.Government I don't see any plan at all. That is why it is so urgent we

:32:51. > :32:56.kick-start the economy. We must go further and we must act now. With

:32:56. > :33:01.119,000 construction jobs lost in two years, a 68% fall in the number

:33:01. > :33:09.of affordable homes being built, we need bold and urgent action now.

:33:09. > :33:14.With Hillary Benn and Jack Dromy, the Government is anticipating a

:33:14. > :33:19.wind fall of up to �4 billion from the sale of the 4G spectrum. In

:33:19. > :33:24.good times Labour used every penny of the �22 billion from the sale of

:33:24. > :33:29.the 3G licences to repay national debt. In difficult times, we

:33:29. > :33:34.urgently need to put something back into our economy. So, with this

:33:34. > :33:38.one-off windfall from, the sale of the 4G spectrum, let's cut through

:33:38. > :33:43.this Government's dither and rhetoric and actually do something.

:33:43. > :33:48.Not more talk, but action now. Let's use the money from the 4G

:33:48. > :33:52.sale and build over the next two years, 100,000 new homes,

:33:52. > :34:00.affordable homes to rent and buy, creating hundreds of thousands of

:34:00. > :34:07.jobs. Let's get our construction industry moving again.

:34:07. > :34:10.Add to that a stamp duty holiday for first-time buyers, we can

:34:10. > :34:15.deliver real help to people aspiring to get on to the property

:34:15. > :34:19.ladder. Conference, this is a clear and costed plan to kick-start the

:34:19. > :34:23.recovery and get people back to work, building the homes we need

:34:23. > :34:33.now and for the long term. Building our way out of recession and

:34:33. > :34:34.

:34:34. > :34:40.rebuilding Britain for the future. APPLAUSE

:34:40. > :34:44.We also need reform, to boost long- term investment and skills. The

:34:45. > :34:49.only rise to living standards for working people. We need a modern

:34:49. > :34:52.industry policy to support long- term wealth creation, with

:34:52. > :34:56.strategic support for advanced manufacturing and service

:34:56. > :34:59.industries. We need to work and campaign together to tackle tax

:34:59. > :35:07.avoidance and bogus self-employment and prevent the race to the bottom

:35:07. > :35:12.through regional pay. We need to enforce the minimum wage.

:35:12. > :35:15.We need to help parents balance work and family life and make sure

:35:15. > :35:18.our labour market is genuinely flexible and fair for working

:35:18. > :35:28.people. Let's go further and promote the living wage too.

:35:28. > :35:29.

:35:29. > :35:32.APPLAUSE We also know our banking system

:35:32. > :35:37.needs cultural change and radical reform. Reform which this

:35:37. > :35:43.Government is only interested in watering down. That is why Ed

:35:43. > :35:48.Miliband and I are clear - we do need a full and independent inquiry

:35:48. > :35:53.into the practises of the banking industry. We need radical reform to

:35:53. > :36:00.separate retail and investment banking. We need active support for

:36:00. > :36:07.mutuals and co-operatives. We need a proper investment bank - this one

:36:07. > :36:13.properly backed by the Treasury. APPLAUSE

:36:13. > :36:16.Conference, let me also say this about the hundreds of thousands of

:36:16. > :36:24.working people, earning ordinary salaries, who work hard every day

:36:24. > :36:28.behind the counters of our high street banks - they were shocked

:36:28. > :36:32.and dismayed at the gross irresponsibility and greed of a few

:36:32. > :36:37.millionaire bankers at the top, who caused such damage and gave their

:36:37. > :36:41.industry a bad name. Working people who want tougher regulation, who

:36:41. > :36:51.want banks to work for the long- term interests of our economy and

:36:51. > :36:52.

:36:52. > :36:59.who do not deserve to be pilloried for their hard work and service.

:36:59. > :37:03.Conference, the financial crisis did expose deep-rooted problems in

:37:03. > :37:08.our economy. It was always going to be difficult to get the deficit

:37:08. > :37:12.down. Even if we get the economy growing again, even if we reform

:37:12. > :37:18.our banking system we will face tough choices in the years ahead.

:37:18. > :37:23.The longer this Government staggers on, with a failing economic plab, -

:37:23. > :37:27.- plan, the worse it will get. Hard times will last longer than any of

:37:27. > :37:31.us hoped. We cannot promise to put everything right straight away.

:37:31. > :37:34.Which is why however difficult this is, when we don't know what we'll

:37:34. > :37:40.inherit, we cannot make any commitments now that the Labour

:37:40. > :37:44.Government will be able to reverse spending cuts. Unlike Nick Clegg,

:37:44. > :37:53.we will not make promises we cannot keep.

:37:53. > :37:57.Of course we will make different choices. We'll do things in a

:37:57. > :38:02.fairer way. Conference, as I said to the TUC, we have to be up front

:38:02. > :38:05.with the British people, that under Labour there would have been cuts.

:38:05. > :38:08.On spending, pay and pensions, there'll be difficult decisions in

:38:08. > :38:13.the future, from which we will not flinch. Before the next election,

:38:13. > :38:17.when we know the circumstances we face, we will set out for our

:38:17. > :38:22.manifesto tough new rules to get our current budget back to balance

:38:22. > :38:27.and national debt on a downward path. Not a meaningless fiscal rule

:38:27. > :38:30.like George Osborne, a promise to balance the book in five years'

:38:30. > :38:35.time, with that period moving forward year after year. Schools

:38:35. > :38:38.will be monitored by the Office for Budget Responsibility. We will take

:38:38. > :38:45.the action required to meet them. When we sell off the Government's

:38:45. > :38:49.shares in the banks, every penny will go to the national debt. That

:38:49. > :38:54.is what we need by fiscal responsibility in the national

:38:54. > :38:57.interest. And because... APPLAUSE And because we all know there

:38:57. > :39:02.cannot be a post election spending spree, in our first year in

:39:02. > :39:05.Government we will hold a zero- based Spending Review, to look at

:39:05. > :39:10.every pound spent by Government. Looking at what the Government can

:39:10. > :39:15.and cannot afford. Boosting productivity. Building on the work

:39:15. > :39:18.that Rachel Reeves is leading, but we will do things differently to

:39:18. > :39:21.this Government. Not slashing budgets without a care in the world,

:39:21. > :39:25.damaging the economy, but also hitting women harder than men.

:39:26. > :39:30.Instead we will assess every pound of taxpayers' money, including for

:39:30. > :39:37.its impact on growth and fairness. Not opting for short-term cuts that

:39:37. > :39:43.look easy, which end up costing more in the lefrpl, like deep cuts

:39:43. > :39:49.toed a -- long-term, like deep cuts costing more. Not ducking the

:39:49. > :39:53.issues we know we have not properly faced up to yet as a country.

:39:53. > :39:57.Issues which transcend parties and Parliaments where we need a cross-

:39:57. > :40:01.party consensus. Let us get a long- term plan to support the most

:40:01. > :40:05.vulnerable in our society. Look after children and adults needing

:40:06. > :40:13.special care. -- social care.

:40:13. > :40:17.APPLAUSE Conference, this is not just about

:40:17. > :40:22.policy, it is about the kind of country we want to be and the way

:40:22. > :40:27.we do our politics. Where we faigs important long-term challenges we

:40:27. > :40:31.must -- face important long-term chal enings we must face a

:40:31. > :40:36.consensus which put politics aside and put the national interest first,

:40:36. > :40:42.just as we did a decade ago. Nowhere is such a consensus more

:40:42. > :40:47.essential than on our national infrastructure.

:40:47. > :40:54.As we approach major projects in a long-term way and build a cross-

:40:54. > :40:58.party sense of national purpose, we can deliver. And yet, it took 13

:40:58. > :41:03.years, after the opening of the Channel Tunnel to complete the

:41:03. > :41:07.high-speed train link to London. Crossrail was delayed for years and

:41:08. > :41:11.years, for decades. Why is it so often the case in our country? Yes,

:41:11. > :41:15.our cumbersome planning system. Yes, proper and legitimate concerns for

:41:15. > :41:19.the environment. Too often in the past Governments have assumed vital

:41:19. > :41:25.infravubgure can only be funded by public investment and then bulked

:41:25. > :41:29.at the bill. Above all, success sieve Governments, including our

:41:29. > :41:32.own have ducked or delayed decisions on our national

:41:32. > :41:37.infrastructure. Sometimes allowed politics to come first. Just look

:41:37. > :41:45.at this Government in the last few months. Will Boris or Dave win on

:41:45. > :41:50.Heathrow? Will Conservative MPs block high-speed rail? Will George

:41:50. > :41:53.see Zac off on renewable energy? What a ridiculous way to run a

:41:53. > :41:57.country. No wonder business is fast losing confidence in this

:41:57. > :42:01.Government's ability to make long- term decisions. But this is not

:42:01. > :42:06.just a problem with this Government. We have to be the party to break

:42:06. > :42:10.that cycle, because if we don't, if we put off major decisions for

:42:10. > :42:16.another generation, it will be our children and grandchildren who will

:42:16. > :42:20.pay the consequences. Let me give you a few examples. We must decide

:42:20. > :42:24.how and when we are going to deliver super fast broadband across

:42:24. > :42:33.the whole of the UK and avoid a two-tier Britain.

:42:33. > :42:36.APPLAUSE We must decide whether we need to

:42:36. > :42:40.replace our antiquated National Grid or risk more power cuts in the

:42:40. > :42:45.future. We must decide, as a country, on a clear plan, to invest

:42:45. > :42:53.in nuclear power, wind and tidal power and other renewables, so we

:42:53. > :42:58.can lead the world in delivering clean energy and green jobs. We

:42:58. > :43:03.must decide how we will protect our country from rising sea levels and

:43:03. > :43:06.exceptional rainfall, including whether we need to re-enforce the

:43:06. > :43:11.Thames barrier, to prevent London from flooding. We must decide,

:43:11. > :43:15.alongside decisions on rail and airport capacity, how we'll get

:43:15. > :43:20.more freight off our roads and on to railways. It will not help our

:43:20. > :43:24.grandchildren if they are all driving electric cars but they are

:43:24. > :43:31.still in gridlock on the M6 or the M25.

:43:31. > :43:36.On all these issues, if we don't start to plan now, what will we say

:43:36. > :43:42.in 30 years' time? When our children ask, why didn't you act

:43:42. > :43:48.when there was still time? That is why we need a comprehensive, long-

:43:48. > :43:53.term plan to rebuild Britain's infrastructure for the 21st century

:43:53. > :43:57.and a cross party consensus to deliver it. It is why when budgets

:43:57. > :44:02.are tight we must think innovatively about how to finance

:44:02. > :44:08.these coming projects, drawing on the private sector and pension

:44:08. > :44:15.savings. So Ed Miliband and I have asked the chair of the Olympic

:44:15. > :44:19.Delivery Authority, Sir Jon Armet, to consider how long-term

:44:19. > :44:23.infrastructure decision-making, planning, delivery and finance can

:44:23. > :44:29.be radically improved over the coming decades. I can announce

:44:29. > :44:31.today that Sir Jon has agreed to lead this work and draw up plans

:44:31. > :44:35.for a commission or process, independent of Government, which

:44:35. > :44:39.can assess and make proposals on the long-term infrastructure needs

:44:39. > :44:49.of our country over the coming decades and help build that

:44:49. > :44:50.

:44:50. > :44:54.consensus. Not repeating the mistakes of the

:44:54. > :44:58.past, but learning from them. Building a consensus that crosses

:44:58. > :45:03.party lines without chopping and changing want Parliament to the

:45:03. > :45:08.next. This is what we mean by building a consensus to rebuild

:45:09. > :45:13.Britain for the future. And conference, there is another lesson

:45:13. > :45:22.we must learn from our history. Many people have said over recent

:45:22. > :45:28.weeks, this has been written's greatest ever summer. -- Britain's.

:45:28. > :45:33.But let me remind you of a greater summer still. The summer of 1945,

:45:33. > :45:37.the end of six years of war, when our nation welcomed its he wrote

:45:37. > :45:43.home from the battlefields of Asia, Europe and America and celebrated

:45:44. > :45:48.the defeat of fascism. Confidence are predecessors were elected that

:45:48. > :45:56.the year to rebuild the country ravaged by conflict. They faced

:45:56. > :46:00.even greater talent is than we face today. An economy weakened by war,

:46:00. > :46:06.and national debt double the size of ours today and they make tough

:46:06. > :46:11.and unpopular decisions to continue with rationing, to cut defence

:46:11. > :46:15.spending and to introduce prescription charges. But that the

:46:15. > :46:19.Labour Cabinet also remained focused on the long-term task ahead

:46:19. > :46:29.and they learned from history and they rejected the failed austerity

:46:29. > :46:29.

:46:29. > :46:34.of the 1930s. And that meant they could put in

:46:35. > :46:40.place a long-term reforms end during achievements, vital to a

:46:40. > :46:46.country's future. The Beveridge Report, new homes that he rose, the

:46:46. > :46:52.school leaving age raised, and an NHS free to all, based on not an

:46:52. > :46:56.ability to pay, over 60 years later celebrated in our Olympics opening

:46:56. > :47:06.ceremony for the world to see. Still today the greatest health

:47:06. > :47:13.

:47:13. > :47:19.service in all the world. Conference, they were very

:47:19. > :47:24.different times. But it is our task to recapture the spirit and values

:47:24. > :47:29.and sense of national purpose of that time. It just think of the

:47:29. > :47:34.people in whose footsteps we follow. Working men and women who in the

:47:34. > :47:39.years before had seen a hardship that many of us would never

:47:39. > :47:44.experience. But they are suffering did not teach them selfishness, it

:47:44. > :47:48.taught them solidarity. And that is why they never settled for second

:47:48. > :47:56.best in their battle Education's all, free health care and proper

:47:56. > :48:01.rights at work. And we owe it to them, but more

:48:01. > :48:08.than that we owe it to our children and their children to come, to

:48:08. > :48:15.learn from that example, make the tough decisions but not sacrifice

:48:15. > :48:22.their futures. Because, when our grandchildren look back at us, what

:48:22. > :48:28.will they say? Will they say we cast a generation of young people

:48:28. > :48:32.on the scrapheap of unemployment? Will they say we as a generation

:48:32. > :48:38.dismantled the NHS and made it harder to go to university? Will

:48:38. > :48:43.they say we plunge Britain into a decade of economic stagnation while

:48:43. > :48:52.other countries raced ahead? Will they say it we left Britain a less

:48:52. > :48:58.prosperous, more unequal and unfair? All, will they say even as

:48:58. > :49:04.we made tough and painful decisions, that ours was the generation that

:49:04. > :49:09.got a record number of people into apprenticeships and university?

:49:09. > :49:11.Ours was the generation that safeguarded the NHS and started the

:49:11. > :49:15.rebuilding of our national infrastructure? Ours was the

:49:15. > :49:19.generation that tackled our debt by growing and reforming our economy

:49:19. > :49:24.and making sure the banking crisis that caused it could never happen

:49:24. > :49:28.again. Ours was the generation that broke from the cycle of political

:49:29. > :49:33.short-termism and started to rebuild Britain a new in the long-

:49:33. > :49:37.term interest. Let us go forward, not flinching from tough decisions,

:49:37. > :49:42.giving our young people hope, rebuilding Britain for the future.

:49:42. > :49:52.That is a challenge, that is our mission, let us go forward and do

:49:52. > :49:55.

:49:55. > :50:01.it together. Thank you. STUDIO: Ed Balls finishes his

:50:02. > :50:07.speech to the Labour Party Conference. He then moved on to his

:50:07. > :50:11.brief, the economy. He announced what is called a zero based

:50:11. > :50:16.approach to public spending. It means a root-and-branch study of

:50:16. > :50:20.all public spending before deciding what to do next. He announced new

:50:20. > :50:29.fiscal rules, although they were a bit vague and would be monitored by

:50:29. > :50:34.the Budget -- the Office for Budget Responsibility and he talked about

:50:34. > :50:40.better infrastructure delivery which it is not very controversial.

:50:40. > :50:47.He also was most keen of the need to kick-start the economy. And we

:50:47. > :50:52.got the announcement of using the proceeds from the 4G spectrum sale.

:50:52. > :50:55.And we are joined in the studio And the Economic Secretary to the

:50:55. > :50:58.Treasury, Sajid Javid, is with me now. And the Shadow Chief Secretary

:50:58. > :51:04.to the Treasury, Rachel Reeves, is waiting to speak to us from

:51:04. > :51:10.Manchester. When the deficit starts to rise again, the economy needs a

:51:10. > :51:17.kick-start? We heard more of the same, which is what I expected,

:51:17. > :51:24.more borrowing, spending and more debt. More debt than there would be

:51:24. > :51:29.otherwise. He talked about the 4G spectrum and use the proceeds, what

:51:29. > :51:33.ever there may be to try it and invest affordable housing. It also

:51:33. > :51:38.shows he is not consistent with what he says. Almost exactly this

:51:38. > :51:44.time last year, he said he would use any future proceeds from the

:51:44. > :51:47.sale of bank proceeds to pay down the debt. Now he said anyone for

:51:47. > :51:54.the Government gets he wants to spend, so therefore increase the

:51:54. > :52:00.debt. Just on the 4G, what would you do with the proceeds of 4G?

:52:00. > :52:06.don't know what the proceeds will be. This say they are three or 4

:52:06. > :52:10.billion? We will boost jobs... would you do with it? We will

:52:11. > :52:14.decide at the time. You do not know yet. The us is not about what we

:52:14. > :52:21.will do, it is analysing what he said because he wants to be the

:52:21. > :52:24.future Challen -- Chancellor. don't know exactly how much, it is

:52:24. > :52:28.stuck in litigation. I have made that point several times on this

:52:28. > :52:33.programme. If and when it comes, Labour has said they would like to

:52:33. > :52:39.spend the money on affordable housing. It is legitimate to ask

:52:39. > :52:44.you, if and when it comes what would you do? When the man comes

:52:44. > :52:48.and we know the amount and timing, we will decide then the best way to

:52:48. > :52:53.spend the money. What is more important is what Ed Balls said

:52:53. > :52:57.today. Let's look at their policy on affordable housing. During their

:52:57. > :53:02.period in Government, the number of affordable housing in terms of

:53:03. > :53:07.twirling fell by a net 200,000. The people on the waiting list went up

:53:07. > :53:11.from one million up to 1.8 million. That is their policy, and what he

:53:11. > :53:17.has announced today won't make any difference. Your policy is to cut

:53:17. > :53:22.the deficit, why is the deficit rising? It is not, it is down by a

:53:22. > :53:26.quarter. How big is the deficit in the first five months of this

:53:26. > :53:30.financial year compared to the same five months last year? If you pick

:53:30. > :53:34.a few months that are selected to illustrate your point. It you look

:53:34. > :53:38.at the time period from when we entered Government as a coalition,

:53:38. > :53:44.determined to deal with the bad inheritance, the national deficit

:53:44. > :53:50.has fallen from 156 billion to 119 billion, of the last set of

:53:50. > :53:54.accounts we have. If you take the first few months of this fiscal

:53:54. > :53:58.year and we have most of the year to go, I would rather make a

:53:58. > :54:01.comment on whether deficit is when we have proper estimates. I had

:54:01. > :54:06.taken the first five months because that is the only time I have

:54:06. > :54:10.figures for. Is it still your claim the deficit this year will be

:54:10. > :54:14.smaller than the deficit last financial year? It you have taken

:54:14. > :54:18.the deficit for the first five months this time last year, asked

:54:18. > :54:22.the same question, you would have looked at those numbers are still

:54:22. > :54:26.for the deficit wouldn't pick the Government's target. If you look at

:54:26. > :54:34.the ONS numbers published last week, the deficit is down to 119 billion

:54:34. > :54:42.the Last Post newcomer 25% lower than where it was. -- 25% lower

:54:42. > :54:48.than where it was. I use saying the deficit ending April 2013 will be

:54:48. > :54:57.smaller than a pull just ended? will have more information when it

:54:57. > :55:01.comes to the estimates for growth later in the year. The fact is, but

:55:01. > :55:04.the first five months of this year, it is rising and the city is

:55:04. > :55:08.projecting it will continue to rise and be higher than last year and

:55:08. > :55:14.the national debt is troubling. What does David Cameron mean when

:55:14. > :55:19.he says he is dealing with the debt? He means we inherited an

:55:19. > :55:23.economic inheritance there almost bankrupt this country. You heard

:55:23. > :55:28.about Ed Balls talking about a previous Labour Government, what he

:55:28. > :55:33.missed out in 1976 we have to go cap-in-hand to the IMF under a

:55:33. > :55:39.Labour Government. The first step - - step to dealing with debt is

:55:39. > :55:44.making sure you don't borrow more than you have to. That's go to

:55:44. > :55:50.Manchester. Ed Balls started his speech late, or Rachel Reeves, we

:55:50. > :55:55.are delighted to see you there. If you take the 3 billion almost of

:55:55. > :56:00.its a for new homes, obviously 100,000, that would only give you,

:56:00. > :56:04.you would have to pay �30,000 a home, which is not very much to

:56:05. > :56:12.build. How much extra with the housing associations have to borrow

:56:12. > :56:18.to get to the 100,000? We think you could raise 3 billion or a bit more

:56:18. > :56:23.through the mobile mock road Sale. We think that would be sufficient

:56:23. > :56:29.for the construction of 100,000 new homes. The housing associations

:56:29. > :56:34.would have to borrow and all, surely? These houses are for rent,

:56:34. > :56:38.so also you would bring in revenues from that as well. We think this is

:56:38. > :56:42.a conservative estimates about how much you would raise from the 4G

:56:42. > :56:46.spectrum, and we would use the money of the two years for the

:56:46. > :56:51.construction of those affordable new homes of families who

:56:51. > :56:55.desperately need them. We think that money is sufficient and it is

:56:55. > :57:01.a conservative estimate. You are saying 3 billion alone would build

:57:01. > :57:07.100,000 houses at an average price of �30,000? We think it is possible.

:57:07. > :57:14.We think it is affordable. We think we are being conservative about how

:57:14. > :57:18.much that would raise. What are you building, matchboxes? I was at a

:57:18. > :57:23.site today were 60 new family homes are being built their rent for

:57:23. > :57:33.local people in Manchester. We think that money is sufficient.

:57:33. > :57:34.

:57:34. > :57:38.much did they cost each? I don't know how much, but they raise money

:57:38. > :57:47.when those houses are for rent and money will come in through that way

:57:47. > :57:55.as well. We think up to �4 billion for the sale of the 4G spectrum is

:57:55. > :58:02.a conservative estimate. The 3D licence brought in �42 million.

:58:02. > :58:07.am sorry to Russia, but we have not got much time. -- rush you. On the

:58:07. > :58:12.splitting of the banks, your leader is in favour of it, Alastair

:58:12. > :58:17.Darling has called it outdated. He was right? John because in his

:58:17. > :58:21.report said there is a ring fence between retail and investment banks.

:58:21. > :58:27.This Government is watering that down. Mervyn King at the Bank of

:58:27. > :58:32.England and many others have said that. Retail banks can sell to

:58:32. > :58:38.Riddick -- derivative products to small businesses going against what

:58:38. > :58:46.John vicars recommended. Apart from this Government who are lobbying

:58:46. > :58:50.them heavily. I am sorry to have rushed you, we have ran out of time.

:58:50. > :58:54.The quiz of course, they took Ed Miliband's phone away so he could