:00:45. > :00:48.Aternoon folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics, where I'm not lost
:00:48. > :00:53.for words. In fact today's top story is "punbelievable", because
:00:53. > :00:56.the battle over who runs the West Coast Main Line has hit the buffers.
:00:56. > :01:01.The process was derailed after the Government finally admitted that
:01:01. > :01:04.the bidding process was flawed. Virgin Trains, which had brought a
:01:04. > :01:11.legal challenge after losing out to First Group in the fight to renew
:01:12. > :01:15.the franchise, will keep running the service. After that, who knows?
:01:15. > :01:20.Crime and health dominate the Labour conference today. We'll have
:01:20. > :01:23.the latest. Good cop, bad cop. Does this chap look like a Police
:01:23. > :01:31.Commissioner to you? We'll be asking why John Prescott deserves
:01:31. > :01:38.your vote. If you live in Humberside that is. And is Ed
:01:39. > :01:44.Miliband posh or not? Does it matter? Adam had the balls to ask.
:01:44. > :01:54.How do you know he's not posh then? Because he's an MP and MPs aren't
:01:54. > :01:55.
:01:55. > :02:01.posh. Who is posh if MPs aren't? The Queen. Posh Spice. She's too
:02:01. > :02:04.young to know about Posh Spice. She's not posh. It was her little
:02:04. > :02:12.joke. Only after we had made ate number of times and she stopped
:02:12. > :02:16.crying. All that in the next hour. Public
:02:16. > :02:19.service broadcast at its finest. It is not a make-over show.
:02:19. > :02:21.And with us for the duration, former Labour Home Secretary,
:02:21. > :02:24.Jacqui Smith. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Now, it's the morning
:02:24. > :02:29.after the afternoon before so lets talk about Ed Miliband's speech
:02:29. > :02:39.with the perspective of almost 24 hours. Because there was a bit of a
:02:39. > :02:44.recurring theme. Take a gander at this. Disraeli called it one nation.
:02:44. > :02:49.One nation. That spirit of one nation. One nation, a country where
:02:50. > :02:55.everyone plays their part. So we must be a one-nation party, to
:02:55. > :03:00.become a one-nation Government, to build a one-nation Britain. It must
:03:00. > :03:05.be about building one nation together. One nation... One nation
:03:05. > :03:10.economy... My vision of one nation... One nation, a country for
:03:10. > :03:16.all, with everyone playing their part. A Britain we rebuild together.
:03:16. > :03:21.Thank you very much. APPLAUSE I think it sounded quite good like
:03:21. > :03:25.that actually. Was one nation the name of his
:03:25. > :03:29.comprehensive school? No, it was Haverstock actually. You might have
:03:29. > :03:32.been foolinged into thinking it was one nation. Ed Miliband used the
:03:32. > :03:38.phrase one nation over 40 times yesterday. Jacqui Smith, what did
:03:38. > :03:42.it mean to you? It was quite clever, quite audacious. First of all it is
:03:42. > :03:49.a vehicle as a critique of the Government. Secondly I think it is
:03:49. > :03:53.a positioning of Ed on the centre ground. You do? I think it is and I
:03:53. > :03:57.hope it is. Thirdly, it is an umbrella under which you can begin
:03:57. > :04:01.to build a policy programme. In many ways I thought there were more
:04:02. > :04:05.policy it is in yesterday's speech than I expected. Did you? The
:04:05. > :04:09.general consensus was the style and the delivery was very good. I think
:04:09. > :04:12.most commentators agreed with, that but it was light on substance.
:04:12. > :04:15.Let's not forget yesterday before the speech you were talking about
:04:15. > :04:20.this needed to be all about Ed the person. He needed to convince
:04:20. > :04:24.people he could be Prime Minister. I would have said on that test he
:04:24. > :04:31.has very clearly succeeded today. In addition we got policy
:04:32. > :04:34.announcements on apprenticeship ships and voeckation. Announcements
:04:34. > :04:38.on banking, -- vocation, announcements on the NHS,
:04:38. > :04:44.withdrawing the NHS Bill. We got announcements about business
:04:44. > :04:48.reporting and how that was going to fit within this one-nation umbrella.
:04:48. > :04:52.This is still two-and-a-half years before an election. It would be
:04:52. > :04:56.wholly wrong to spell out your policy programme now but there was
:04:56. > :04:59.enough to flesh out the one nation idea. You said you hoped he's moved
:04:59. > :05:04.on to the central ground, if you like. Others, I put to you, are
:05:04. > :05:07.saying that it was a bit of a Trojan horse, the one nation phrase,
:05:07. > :05:13.for moving the central ground to the left. Because the things you've
:05:13. > :05:17.just litsst listed there have a more left -- listed there have a
:05:17. > :05:21.more left-wing feel. What was there about aspiration? He said we have
:05:21. > :05:25.to be a party that wins in the south as well as the north. That's
:05:25. > :05:29.electorally obvious, but it is also about as he said being concerned
:05:29. > :05:33.about the squeezed middle as well as tackling poverty. It is
:05:33. > :05:38.aspirational to talk about the 50% of young people who don't go to
:05:38. > :05:44.university, that it doesn't mean that you don't need to aspire and
:05:44. > :05:47.have the qualifications to enabling you to do that. You do know what Ed
:05:47. > :05:51.Miliband would do in Government, what that Government would do in
:05:51. > :05:55.power? To that extent, nobody knows until the point at which Ed gets
:05:55. > :05:59.into Government or certainly until the point at which the manifesto is
:05:59. > :06:03.fleshed out. What people do know much more is I think they know more
:06:03. > :06:07.about Ed Miliband the person. They begin to see him as somebody who
:06:07. > :06:11.can be a Prime Minister. They know more about the things that he cares
:06:11. > :06:14.about and the direction he is likely to be taking the Labour
:06:14. > :06:19.Party, and if successful in the general election, the country. No,
:06:19. > :06:22.of course we don't know everything yet and nor should we, but we know
:06:22. > :06:27.considerably more than we knew yesterday. In term of the tests set
:06:27. > :06:32.for that speech, I think he passed them. You do agree with reverting
:06:33. > :06:37.to the 50p top rate of tax? I think the Government's reduction of the
:06:37. > :06:41.top rate of tax at this moment in time says something about their
:06:41. > :06:51.priorities that it is right to highlight. Personally, I'm not hung
:06:51. > :06:55.up on a 350p top rate ofta. I don't -- a 50p top rate of tax. If we can
:06:55. > :07:01.raise more revenue with a rate that's lower than 50p I personally
:07:01. > :07:09.would be happy with that. Two of Fleet Street's, how can I put this,
:07:09. > :07:13.more acerbic writers, that is me being polite. Quentin Letts and
:07:13. > :07:16.Kevin Maguire. When we spoke to them last week they appeared rather
:07:16. > :07:20.underwhelmed by everything. They are difficult people to please.
:07:20. > :07:25.Let's find out in things have improved in Manchester. Quentin
:07:25. > :07:28.Letts, all this reference to Disraeli and one nation must have
:07:28. > :07:35.had your little heart aflutter yesterday afternoon. You know what,
:07:35. > :07:45.Andrew, it reminded me of the old days of British Leyland rebranding.
:07:45. > :07:47.
:07:47. > :07:57.There was a thing called an Allegro Van Den Plas and underneath the oak
:07:57. > :08:02.veneer it was a rotten car. We loved Ed Miliband on stage this,
:08:02. > :08:07.constipated figure. But did it mean anything? I'm not sure. Kevin, you
:08:07. > :08:12.must have rush Todwickpedia and looked up who Benjamin Disraeli
:08:12. > :08:16.was? I actually knew. He thought he was a Manchester City centre
:08:16. > :08:20.forward. He played for Chelsea, midfield. He was pretty good, a
:08:20. > :08:26.good range of passing. No, it is interesting when a Labour leader
:08:26. > :08:29.goes back to the Victorian period to steal the clothes of a Tory
:08:29. > :08:36.rather than mentioning Tony Blair, who I think didn't get a look in at
:08:36. > :08:42.all in this that speech. He would probably have been afraid of a few
:08:42. > :08:48.boos. The Daily Mirror having to explain to its readerers who Mr
:08:48. > :08:54.Disraeli or Lord Beaconsfield as he died, about one nation Toryism, how
:08:54. > :08:59.you do feel about that as a good Labour leftie? I rather left, to --
:08:59. > :09:03.I rather laugh, to be honest. Gordon pitched himself as one
:09:03. > :09:07.nation briefly when he was father of the nation for three months,
:09:07. > :09:11.including the election that never was. Quentin Letts, yesterday I
:09:11. > :09:15.read out a list of modern politicians that have tried to wrap
:09:15. > :09:21.themselves in the one nation mantle. They are all at it. Or they call it
:09:21. > :09:25.the Big Society. That was a great success that one. I've forgotten
:09:25. > :09:28.about that! The problem for Mr Miliband is he says these cosy
:09:28. > :09:33.words about Big Society but at the same time you have trade unionists
:09:33. > :09:40.here calling each other comrades and demanding a restoration of
:09:40. > :09:47.public spending after the so-called draconian cuts, which haven't been
:09:47. > :09:52.draconian in the least, arguably. Miliband centralism isn't true.
:09:52. > :09:56.That is a problem. Regardless of all of that, Quentin Letts, is it
:09:56. > :10:02.not the case that after Mr Miliband's performance yesterday
:10:02. > :10:07.the Labour Party leaves Manchester tomorrow united as a party, largely,
:10:08. > :10:12.and pretty much 100% at the moment behind their leader. It was a
:10:12. > :10:17.success. In that respect I would agree. I don't think they were that
:10:17. > :10:21.divided beforehand. I don't think Mr Miliband was facing any sort of
:10:21. > :10:26.danger beforehand. But undoubtedly it worked for him as a party leader,
:10:26. > :10:30.terrific. He got a good reception in the hall. He cut through a
:10:30. > :10:33.little bit on the national news I think. But you do come back to this
:10:34. > :10:39.basic problem that the message he was producing yesterday just isn't
:10:39. > :10:42.in tune with the reality of his party's policies. They haven't yet
:10:42. > :10:48.accepted the economic difficulty and how they are going to address
:10:48. > :10:53.those. Qev in, you must be hoping that all this one -- Kevin you must
:10:53. > :10:58.be hoping this one nation talk is going to take the party left of
:10:58. > :11:03.centre with good left win policies? We'll have to see how it goes, but
:11:03. > :11:07.he was never the Red Ed that some of his opponents plan to do so
:11:07. > :11:12.paint him. He a relatively mainstream Social Democrat. If you
:11:12. > :11:18.look at the policies he's unveiled so far and in rebuilding Britain. I
:11:18. > :11:25.accept he has only put the foundations, never mind the windows,
:11:25. > :11:29.doors and roof. Don't get your pension fund ripped off, build more
:11:29. > :11:33.houses, train your kids and then the banks, David Cameron could have
:11:33. > :11:37.set that. It will be interesting where he will go. I suspect his
:11:37. > :11:41.instincts are slightly left of centre. A lot was to be made of
:11:41. > :11:45.differences between Ed and David Miliband and their policies. They
:11:45. > :11:47.weren't that great. More people here now think they have got the
:11:48. > :11:53.right Miliband than when they started meeting on Saturday.
:11:53. > :12:00.final question to both of you. Either of you can answer it. Other
:12:00. > :12:04.than the phrase "one nation" what was Benjamin Disraeli's second most
:12:04. > :12:08.famous phrase? He wrote Cybill... That's not a phrase, that's a book.
:12:08. > :12:16.That's Fawlty Towers! I thought I would come up with an answer.
:12:16. > :12:25.Neither of you know. This is our David Letterman moment isn't it!
:12:25. > :12:33.His second phrase was, "Keep your eye on Paisley." Wow! I want you to
:12:33. > :12:37.go away and look up why he said that, in the 1880s. We learn a
:12:37. > :12:44.little and you learn a lot. Gentlemen, thank you very much.
:12:44. > :12:50.Thank you so much. Good to see you. Probably see you next week, where
:12:50. > :12:56.are the Torys? Birmingham. Apologies to Douglas Alexander for
:12:56. > :13:01.yesterday, not for giling him on his �40,000 stuff, where he
:13:01. > :13:07.deserves to be grilled. He was right. He said Disraeli, but it was
:13:07. > :13:11.Asquith. We looked it up. In many ways
:13:12. > :13:15.Douglas Alexander is right Andrew. And what about Andrew? In a few
:13:16. > :13:20.ways Andrew is right as well. That's better than I might have
:13:21. > :13:25.hoped! Or may even be true. Labour historians will tell you the party
:13:25. > :13:34.has a proud tradition of fighting for the underdog, representing the
:13:34. > :13:40.oppresses and in the '40s fighting fascism in all its forms. It was
:13:40. > :13:43.with unease when in Government Labour showed an authoritarian side.
:13:43. > :13:47.The party find being tough electorally helpful and were
:13:47. > :13:57.certain potss not just about countering terrorism? We locked
:13:57. > :13:57.
:13:57. > :14:02.jils in a detention cell to think it over P -- Giles.
:14:02. > :14:06.There may come a time in the future where a Government of any party
:14:06. > :14:11.insists we are all IDed and identified, that our DNA is
:14:11. > :14:14.recorded, whatever we may or may not have done, that we can be put
:14:14. > :14:20.inside somewhere without trial or without having done something. But
:14:20. > :14:26.wait a second. One Government has tried to do this and it was Labour
:14:26. > :14:30.Government. The provisions in this Bill have always been about
:14:30. > :14:36.protecting the British people. Protecting them from the serious
:14:36. > :14:40.threat that we face from terrorism. Ever since 9/11 the Labour
:14:40. > :14:46.Government of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown introduced in the name of
:14:46. > :14:51.fighting terror new concepts to us. 90 and later 42-day detention
:14:51. > :14:56.without charge. Personal ID cards. DNA and other databases. CCTV
:14:56. > :15:00.expansion and control orders. This from a party that had a tradition
:15:00. > :15:04.of being anti-authoritarian and defending individual rights and
:15:04. > :15:09.liberty from the state. Lots of very, very dangerous short-term
:15:09. > :15:19.decisions were made. Lots of terrible things were done in the
:15:19. > :15:28.
:15:28. > :15:31.name of freedom that actually I think there was something that
:15:31. > :15:34.people felt we've done the Human Rights Act and all the civil
:15:34. > :15:39.liberties are protected and it doesn't really matter what we do.
:15:39. > :15:49.There's no doubt, as 7/7 proved, there was a threat. It did and does
:15:49. > :15:50.
:15:50. > :15:54.exist. But, hold on, was this circumstance or was it politics?
:15:54. > :16:02.you're positioned in response appropriately to the threat level
:16:02. > :16:05.at the time and at the same time between those who want maximum
:16:05. > :16:09.liberties and those who want minimal liberties or the other way
:16:09. > :16:14.around, you are roughly right. opposition, some expected the
:16:14. > :16:17.leadership to row back from the policies they felt hadn't been true
:16:17. > :16:22.Labour values. They were disappointed. The prevailing
:16:22. > :16:30.science of the rest of the party, the fact that they don't feel that
:16:30. > :16:35.they can now resile from that agenda, that somehow they would be
:16:35. > :16:39.showing themselves up, that's very worrying. The trick is whether
:16:39. > :16:45.Labour can stop apologising for the mistakes of the past and start
:16:45. > :16:48.being a decent opposition, taking on encroachments into civil
:16:48. > :16:54.liberties under a new government. All of which we should consider
:16:54. > :17:04.very carefully for the future. Someone let me out of here now.
:17:04. > :17:04.
:17:04. > :17:09.Anyone? Is there anybody there? I hope someone has let him out Yvette
:17:09. > :17:14.Cooper addressed conference earlier and began by paying tribute to PC
:17:14. > :17:20.Nicola Hughes and her colleague, PC Fiona Bone who died last month.
:17:20. > :17:24.police have gathered from across the country and so have we, so we
:17:24. > :17:29.join them and the people of Manchester, the Prime Minister, the
:17:29. > :17:33.Home Secretary and the whole country in paying tribute to those
:17:33. > :17:43.brave officers, to all of our emergency services and we bid those
:17:43. > :17:46.
:17:46. > :17:50.officers farewell. APPLAUSE
:17:50. > :17:53.Yvette Cooper joins us now from Manchester. Before we get to your
:17:53. > :17:57.brief, you were talking there about the death of the two police
:17:57. > :18:00.officers. The city of Manchester will be pausing no doubt to reflect
:18:00. > :18:04.on the fact that those two young women were killed in the line of
:18:04. > :18:09.duty and the funeral of Nicola Hughes is in fact taking place
:18:09. > :18:13.within the hour at Manchester cathedral. Give us your thoughts.
:18:13. > :18:17.think it just shows huge number of people from Manchester, but also
:18:17. > :18:20.police officers from across the country, who have come to pay
:18:20. > :18:25.tribute, because police officers do take risks every day of their lives
:18:25. > :18:31.and we should never take that for granted. They were killed in a
:18:31. > :18:33.brutal act. It's right that the whole country and we and the Prime
:18:33. > :18:36.Minister join the people of Manchester in paying tribute to
:18:36. > :18:40.them. I understand that people are lining the streets. We'll move on
:18:40. > :18:45.to some of the specifics. We heard a lot about one nation from Ed
:18:45. > :18:50.Miliband. What, in your view, is one-nation policing? I think it's
:18:50. > :18:53.going back to the principles that Robert Peel set out when he founded
:18:53. > :18:57.the British police, that the police are the public and the public are
:18:57. > :19:01.the police and they police not through coercion but consent. They
:19:01. > :19:04.have to have the confidence of the public to do their job. That means
:19:04. > :19:08.they have to have respect from the public as well. You still believe,
:19:08. > :19:12.though, like the coalition, although to a lesser degree, in
:19:12. > :19:16.quite a high level of cuts to the police force and reforms that
:19:16. > :19:19.should be carried out, despite what you've just said? Well, the level
:19:19. > :19:22.of cuts that we supported would have protected the number of police
:19:22. > :19:27.officers across the country, so yes, we supported 12%, but the
:19:27. > :19:32.Government went for 20% and that's why all the independent expert
:19:32. > :19:37.evidence shows they are losing 15,000 officers across the country.
:19:37. > :19:41.I think that's cutting too far, too deep. It's the wrong thing. We just
:19:41. > :19:45.saw in that film talking about civil liberties. Would you say the
:19:45. > :19:49.Labour Party is now an authoritarian party? No, I think
:19:49. > :19:52.the whole point is to have a strong police, but also strong checks and
:19:52. > :19:57.balances. If you have the police embedded in the communities that
:19:57. > :20:00.they serve then that's the best way to fight crime, to be tough on the
:20:00. > :20:05.causes as well as crime itself, but also to have checks and balances
:20:05. > :20:09.for when things go wrong, which is why I set out proposals for a new
:20:09. > :20:12.Police Authority, because I don't believe that the Independent Police
:20:12. > :20:17.Complaints Commission is sufficient to deal properly with problems and
:20:17. > :20:22.they have to deal with problems. Why is Labour now not an
:20:22. > :20:25.authoritarian party, if you say so? Labour tried to introduce 42-day
:20:25. > :20:29.detention of terror suspects without charge and identity cards
:20:29. > :20:33.and failed. You did introduce control orders. That's an
:20:33. > :20:38.authoritarian party. I think control orders was the right thing
:20:38. > :20:41.to do. I think we did do the wrong thing on the 42 and 92 days,
:20:41. > :20:44.because I don't think that was backed by the evidence. The point
:20:44. > :20:48.is to respond to the evidence you have. Control orders were right,
:20:48. > :20:53.because it was about dealing with a very small number of extremely
:20:53. > :20:56.dangerous people that the courts as well as the Home Secretary, have
:20:56. > :21:00.agreed are dangerous and do need particular contraipbts in order to
:21:00. > :21:05.protect the public, because -- contraipbts, in order to protect
:21:05. > :21:09.the public, because that is the duty of the police. It's
:21:09. > :21:14.interesting you say there wasn't the evidence for 42-day detention.
:21:14. > :21:18.What's the evidence backing control orders? I think there was detailed
:21:18. > :21:22.analysis from the security services and the police. Interestingly, it
:21:22. > :21:24.was the assessment of the courts was important. If you ensure that
:21:24. > :21:30.the evidence can go before the courts, the judges themselves have
:21:30. > :21:33.said in some of the cases it is right for example to put further
:21:33. > :21:36.restrictions on people or to to keep them out of London if there
:21:36. > :21:40.might be a terror threat to London. The Government has actually watered
:21:40. > :21:46.down some of those powers. I don't think that was a very wise thing to
:21:46. > :21:50.do and that's putting further strains on the police who have to
:21:50. > :21:54.carry out greater surveillance. still think that the threat is
:21:54. > :22:02.great enough to infringe people's civil liberties in the waim that
:22:02. > :22:05.Shami Chakrabarti chabg outlined. - - in the way that Shami Chakrabarti
:22:05. > :22:10.outlined. Hasn't it changed so we don't need that sort of control?
:22:10. > :22:14.think in the end this is a judgment that has to be einformed by
:22:14. > :22:19.intelligence, but also involves decisions by the courts. In a
:22:19. > :22:22.system like ours we do depend on proper justice on the decisions of
:22:22. > :22:26.the courts and not simply the decisions of the Home Secretary.
:22:26. > :22:30.That's the right thing and I think that's also part of one-nation
:22:30. > :22:35.tradition. What do you say to people like Shami Chakrabarti, are
:22:35. > :22:39.they being too soft? Well, no, there are areas where Shami
:22:39. > :22:43.Chakrabarti and I simply disagree and I think that it is important to
:22:43. > :22:47.make sure that there is sufficient protection and it is important to
:22:47. > :22:51.make sure that you prevent very serious crimes happening, because
:22:51. > :22:55.with something like terrorism you can't simply wait for a terrible
:22:55. > :22:59.event to happen and then clamp down after and prosecute and make sure
:22:59. > :23:02.people are punished. You have to also make sure you do everything
:23:02. > :23:06.you can to prevent the loss of life and the terrible things that can
:23:06. > :23:10.happen. That is the right thing to do. Of course, it's a balance, but
:23:10. > :23:14.it's a sensible approach to take. Are the principals behind --
:23:14. > :23:19.principles behind ID cards still a good idea, even though you failed
:23:19. > :23:23.to bring them in? No, I think the debate has moved on from then. I
:23:23. > :23:26.think that it's not something that's on the cards or something we
:23:26. > :23:30.are promoting, but what we are doing is saying there are areas
:23:30. > :23:33.where we should be cracking down on crime. For example, I talked this
:23:33. > :23:36.morning about taking further action on economic crime, also on
:23:36. > :23:39.organised criminals, who I think are getting away with stark away
:23:40. > :23:43.too much of the money they get through extortion and violence. We
:23:44. > :23:49.should change the law in both those areas. Do you support all the
:23:49. > :23:57.information being held on a centrally trond database? Well, I
:23:57. > :24:01.think you must be talk -- controlled database that? Well, I
:24:01. > :24:07.think you are talking about the internet and surveillance. We are
:24:07. > :24:11.waiting for a report from the cross-party committee that is
:24:11. > :24:13.looking at the detail of these proposals. We have to be quite
:24:13. > :24:17.cautious about the proposals put forward. Of course, the police need
:24:17. > :24:21.to be able to keep up with rising technology and increasing
:24:21. > :24:25.technology and new ways of communicating in the hunt for
:24:25. > :24:28.dangerous criminals, but there have to be proper safeguards, the checks
:24:28. > :24:31.and balances that I talked about earlier. You have to make sure
:24:31. > :24:34.there are limits in place and I'm not sure we have seen enough on the
:24:34. > :24:38.details to be sure the Government has the balance right. Before we
:24:38. > :24:42.let you go, the response that the lawyers for Abu Hamza have returned
:24:42. > :24:46.to the High Court in the last attempt to stay his deportation for
:24:46. > :24:50.health reasons. Your reaction? think this process has been going
:24:50. > :24:53.on long enough. I think there have been far too long delays and
:24:53. > :24:56.serious problems with the European courts on this. I think that Abu
:24:56. > :24:59.Hamza should be extradited. That is the decision of the courts and I
:24:59. > :25:06.think we should just get on with it. Thank you very much. We'll let you
:25:06. > :25:10.go back to the confrens. -- conference. We talked about some of
:25:10. > :25:15.the authoritarian responses. Was that what's what it was or because
:25:15. > :25:25.it was popular? I don't think it was either. It was about saying one
:25:25. > :25:25.
:25:25. > :25:28.of the top responsibilities in government is to protect people, to
:25:28. > :25:32.protect them in their homes and borders and against terrorism. Not
:25:32. > :25:36.only is that a role of Government, but a fundamental role of a Labour
:25:36. > :25:40.Government, because the people who are least able to protect
:25:40. > :25:44.themselves from crime by moving or by having security, their own
:25:44. > :25:47.private security arrangements, are those people who are at the lower
:25:47. > :25:51.end of the income level, who are the least powerful in society.
:25:51. > :25:57.Putting yourself on the side of the victims of crime, I believe, is the
:25:57. > :26:00.right place to be. We heard there from Yvette Cooper that the 42-day
:26:00. > :26:03.detention was wrong. It wasn't backed up by the evidence. Do you
:26:03. > :26:07.accept that now? I think at the time it was backed up by the
:26:07. > :26:13.evidence. I've previously said that I think as a Government we probably
:26:13. > :26:17.spent too long focusing on that. When I withdrew that proposal I
:26:17. > :26:21.left in place a draft Bill, which if it were necessary, could be
:26:21. > :26:25.enacted. I don't have any doubt and I would certainly hope that if that
:26:25. > :26:31.situation did arise, Theresa May would enact that legislation.
:26:31. > :26:37.are happy with the 14 days, which is what it now is, vbg come back
:26:37. > :26:42.from 28 days -- having come back from 28 days? I'm assuming as long
:26:42. > :26:47.as that's the case, I'm content with the current situation. Did it
:26:47. > :26:51.benefit Labour, their positioning, to be seen as being that tough on
:26:51. > :26:55.security? You say it was the right response, but did it help
:26:55. > :26:58.politically as well? Well, I think people do judge governments on the
:26:58. > :27:03.basis of how well they deal with the issues that worry them and for
:27:03. > :27:07.most of the time, before the financial crisis, the issues that
:27:07. > :27:10.people were most worried about on the doorstep were crime and
:27:10. > :27:14.immigration. The reason was because there is nothing like being a
:27:14. > :27:17.victim of crime to make you feel powerless, or make you think there
:27:17. > :27:20.is something the Government should be doing. I think it's the right
:27:20. > :27:24.political decision, not tactically, but actually out of the set of
:27:24. > :27:27.values that we have, to place yourself in the position of victims
:27:27. > :27:33.and do what you can to protect them. It's not the woman walking home
:27:33. > :27:36.late at night who is complaining about CCTV cameras. It's someone
:27:36. > :27:41.sitting rather comfortably in an office that's worrying about them.
:27:41. > :27:45.It's not the rape victim that is worrying about the DNA database.
:27:45. > :27:47.It's people who have never been in that position and haven't had to
:27:47. > :27:52.depend on the police and DNA catching the person that raped them.
:27:52. > :27:54.Thank you. And now to Police Commissioners. We have one wannabe
:27:54. > :28:04.Deputy Dawg in Manchester. He's the former Deputy Prime Minister no
:28:04. > :28:11.
:28:11. > :28:20.less. John Prescott. Welcome. One pleb to another. I can see we
:28:20. > :28:23.are going to get on! As I understand it, for the Labour
:28:23. > :28:28.nomination for Police Commissioner you beat division commander Keith
:28:28. > :28:31.Hunter. In what way do you know more about policing and crime than
:28:31. > :28:35.him? He knows an awful lot about police work, because he's had 30
:28:35. > :28:39.years and he's a very experienced man. We had a little bit of
:28:40. > :28:45.division in the party who should be the candidate. I won the vote, but
:28:45. > :28:49.his experience is inville uebl and he's immediately lined up with me.
:28:49. > :28:52.It's -- invaluable and he's immediately lined up with me. It's
:28:52. > :28:58.the police experience and the community work. We are offering an
:28:58. > :29:01.opportunity that reflects both those experiences, police work and
:29:01. > :29:08.our partnership, which has led to the biggest decline in criminal
:29:08. > :29:10.offences. Do you, when you look at the Humberside police budget in the
:29:10. > :29:14.current economic climate and Government spending, do you think
:29:14. > :29:18.that if you become Police Commissioner you are going to have
:29:18. > :29:21.to preside over cuts in the Humberside budget? Well, we made it
:29:21. > :29:26.very clear that the Government require us to produce a five-year
:29:26. > :29:29.plan within five weeks, if I'm elected. I've looked at that plan
:29:29. > :29:35.that's been prepared on the Government's orders and I'm bound
:29:35. > :29:38.to say, for example, they are going to reduce the police by 400. The
:29:38. > :29:44.independent constable Inspectorate has said that that is actually
:29:44. > :29:48.reducing these resources twice as fast as anywhere else. I say to my
:29:48. > :29:52.Police Authority that people want police, they don't want to see 400
:29:52. > :29:56.cut and I'm not prepared to accept them in the new plan that I'm now
:29:56. > :30:02.proposing. We could be up with a clash between Police Commissioner
:30:02. > :30:06.Prescott and the Government in London? That's what the Government
:30:06. > :30:09.-, well that won't be unusual. That isn't the point. The Government
:30:09. > :30:12.have come along and said, look, there will be a commissioner and
:30:12. > :30:16.he'll negotiate with the chief of the police and they will organise
:30:16. > :30:20.the plan between them. But the money and the power is given to the
:30:20. > :30:23.commissioner and I will be reflecting the community vote. This
:30:23. > :30:26.is no longer the chief of police talking with the Police Authority.
:30:26. > :30:30.It's the community telling me as the commissioner to which I'm
:30:30. > :30:34.accountable, what they want to see as the priority in their five-year
:30:34. > :30:38.plan and I'll work with the police on that and I'll have the resources
:30:38. > :30:41.to negotiate with him, but at the end of the day I do think the
:30:41. > :30:46.policy that Labour had, tough on crime and tough on the causes of
:30:46. > :30:52.crime, led to the biggest decline in criminal offences. I think most
:30:52. > :30:55.of my people in Humberside, in east Yorkshire, north Lincolnshire, that
:30:55. > :31:05.what they want and that's what I'm preparing to put forward on their
:31:05. > :31:11.
:31:11. > :31:16.Some people regard the Police Service as the last great
:31:16. > :31:20.unreformed public service. If you take Humberside, back in 2007 this
:31:20. > :31:23.new Chief Constable came in, to give him his credit, we were at the
:31:23. > :31:27.bottom of the worst-performing police force. He's turned that
:31:27. > :31:32.round in the last eight or nine years to now a very good police
:31:32. > :31:36.force. Reducing crime, working with the community, and now he says and
:31:36. > :31:42.he's been making changes in line with some of the community, I want
:31:42. > :31:47.to continue that. It worked for us for 13 years, why shouldn't it work
:31:48. > :31:52.now, even though it would be made more difficult by the Government
:31:53. > :31:57.reducing police and resources. I want to find the best deal for the
:31:57. > :32:00.people I represent. Is there mission I would have done as a
:32:00. > :32:04.police Commissioner over the last five years that the Police
:32:04. > :32:08.Authority in Humberside did not do? To be fair, they had a different
:32:08. > :32:12.remit. The Police Authority discussed with the Chief Constable,
:32:12. > :32:15.he produced the plan. They talked it over with the community. The
:32:15. > :32:20.framework is there. The one essential difference which this
:32:20. > :32:25.Government has decided is basically you negotiate with the Commissioner.
:32:25. > :32:29.He has to decide where the priority of the resources are. He or she has
:32:29. > :32:34.a to decide what that partnership scheme was. There are some schemes
:32:34. > :32:39.I want to give higher priority to. I'm concerned about a number of
:32:39. > :32:42.drugs in areas and particularly the early stages of school. We have to
:32:42. > :32:47.deal with this in a tougher way than we are doing at the moment. It
:32:47. > :32:50.is credential to talk about drugs but the PPC should start the debate
:32:50. > :32:54.and the priorities he sees after analysis and present it to the
:32:54. > :33:00.electorate. We have a proper debate and set of priorities. That's what
:33:00. > :33:04.my plan B will be. OK, I'm glad you have got a plan B. Others are
:33:04. > :33:08.hoping for another one in different circumstances. They could have a
:33:08. > :33:11.plan B in one nation. I will come to that in a minutes. I thought
:33:11. > :33:17.would. Labour were against the creation of police commissioners
:33:17. > :33:23.but the coalition introduced them and you are standing as a candidate.
:33:23. > :33:27.If Labour wins the election, should they make you redundant? Well, I
:33:27. > :33:32.voted against this as well. I don't like the idea quite frankly of a
:33:32. > :33:37.lot of power in one person's hands. I would like to say I might do it
:33:37. > :33:42.different from some others. I've got candidates against me who want
:33:42. > :33:49.to get rid of speed cameras. The personality makes the difference.
:33:49. > :33:55.Should Labour get rid of them? we've asked the ex-Chief Constable
:33:55. > :33:58.to review and look how police affects him. What we've got to do
:33:58. > :34:01.is fight the election and try to prevent the damage that's
:34:01. > :34:04.inevitably coming from this Government reversing Labour's
:34:04. > :34:09.successful policy. If we are going to change it, wait until the
:34:09. > :34:14.election. At the moment, let me get on with the fight Andrew.
:34:14. > :34:20.understand that, I'm just asking, should Labour in the next election
:34:20. > :34:23.promise to get rid of police commissioners? We'll look at it.
:34:23. > :34:29.After two-and-a-half years we'll see whether it is workening. Make
:34:29. > :34:35.the decision then. Alright. Have you been reading up on your
:34:35. > :34:45.Benjamin Disraeli? You must be over the Moon that your party leader
:34:45. > :34:52.supports a 19th century Tory. You know I'm not an int electual. Who
:34:52. > :34:56.the hell is did Disraeli! I'm just Labour. Traditional values in a
:34:56. > :35:01.modern setting. What Ed was talking about today was identifying himself
:35:01. > :35:05.as the leader. A procession of change. Look, I was an MP when he
:35:05. > :35:09.was born. Things are changing. I'm the old man in this, but I still
:35:09. > :35:14.think when he talks about the health service, he talks about
:35:14. > :35:18.getting your people back to work, making the changes, having a go at
:35:18. > :35:25.the banks. Sounds like traditional values to mem. Robert Blake wrote
:35:25. > :35:32.the biography of Benjamin Disraeli. You don't fancy a read of that?
:35:32. > :35:36.Cybill was one of Disraeli's novels, wouldn't that be nice bed-time
:35:36. > :35:40.reader for a essentialist? I'm a guy that lives by my experience.
:35:40. > :35:46.That's what I call the roots of my belief. Will it be difficulty for
:35:46. > :35:50.Ed. He has to stay in the modern times. Traditional values in my
:35:50. > :35:54.life, modern times change. That's what Ed is changing today. I won't
:35:54. > :36:03.be back to books. I will live on my experience and judgment. Are you
:36:03. > :36:10.now a one-nation Labour man? I'm a one-Labour man. One country, one
:36:10. > :36:15.Labour, one leader. I will remember that. Yeah. I'm not going to come
:36:15. > :36:20.on that that. I'm one Labour, that's all I am. You know I like to
:36:20. > :36:24.make you smile. You don't do it too often and I always succeed. Know
:36:24. > :36:29.the second question behind that one. I have forgotten it! John Prescott,
:36:29. > :36:33.thank you for joining us from Manchester. Pleasure. Sounds from
:36:33. > :36:37.what he is saying there, Labour was against him, but police
:36:37. > :36:42.commissioners are here to stay I guess. Even though not many people
:36:42. > :36:47.may vote for them or even know who their police commissioners turns
:36:47. > :36:51.out to be, what do you think? suspect you might be right. My
:36:51. > :36:54.suspicion of the police Commissioner policy is not that it
:36:54. > :37:00.is too much democracy and accountability, but too little.
:37:00. > :37:05.John is the epitome of a big beast. I have no doubt if he is electioned
:37:05. > :37:08.he will do a good job. What he also identified, he will put himself out
:37:08. > :37:12.to make sure that what he is doing is talking with and reflecting the
:37:12. > :37:15.views of the community. It is pretty difficult for one person to
:37:15. > :37:18.do that. To the extent that the police Commissioner, the elections
:37:18. > :37:24.are opening up to possibility, it's a good thing. It is an electoral
:37:24. > :37:32.opportunity for Labour as well. To the important matter of the day.
:37:32. > :37:36.Does it matter if Ed Miliband is as common as muck or as posh as a
:37:36. > :37:41.cucumber sandwich? Organic bread only of course. He's been proud to
:37:41. > :37:45.talk about his comprehensive education, but does it wash with
:37:45. > :37:48.the great unwashed? We've come to Manchester's Arndale
:37:49. > :37:54.shopping centre to find out what real people think about Ed Miliband.
:37:54. > :37:58.Specifically do, they think he's posh or not? Do you know who Ed
:37:58. > :38:04.Miliband is? That guy with the Red Nose? You could say that. Do you
:38:04. > :38:10.think he's posh or not? No. He said on the news what school he went to,
:38:10. > :38:17.so... It was a comprehensive schooling. So no. Put it in the no
:38:17. > :38:24.slot. Compared to me he is definitely posh, so yeah.
:38:24. > :38:29.It is and Ed Miliband, the Labour leefrpltsd Not posh. How much --
:38:29. > :38:34.the Labour leader. Not posh. How do you know he's not posh? Because he
:38:34. > :38:39.is an MP and MPs aren't posh. is posh if MPs aren't? The Queen.
:38:39. > :38:45.Posh Spice. He's less posh than his brother.
:38:45. > :38:49.But didn't they have the same upbringing? They did, but le is
:38:49. > :38:55.less pretentious than his brother. Who would like to do our BBC
:38:55. > :39:03.survey? Grab a ball and pop it in the slot. Pot posh compared to the
:39:03. > :39:06.others. Like who? David Cameron. Nick Clegg. He's not an Eton person
:39:06. > :39:12.like Cameron. I know he didn't go to private school but you don't
:39:12. > :39:17.need to go to private school to be posh. How posh is Ed Miliband?
:39:17. > :39:22.posh, but not too posh. I can relate to him. Half and whatever. I
:39:22. > :39:27.would say more posh than not, be if I was him I would be disappointed.
:39:27. > :39:34.Yes? What makes you say that? don't know who he is. Leader of the
:39:34. > :39:42.Labour Party. I'm not really political. They all mess it up.
:39:42. > :39:47.Miliband, what do you think? White hair? At the Olympics? No, that is
:39:47. > :39:51.Boris Johnson! What umbrella would you sell Ed Miliband? No speak
:39:51. > :39:57.English. Someone just said I think Ed
:39:57. > :40:07.Miliband is really posh and I don't like him. Waited a second and said,
:40:07. > :40:07.
:40:07. > :40:12."You're not him are you?" I'm going to go for the posh one.
:40:12. > :40:16.Why did you go posh? I think he's not telling us the truth about the
:40:16. > :40:21.way he is. The way he comes across, the way he walks and talks I think
:40:22. > :40:26.suggests posh. But because he is Labour he doesn't want to say that.
:40:26. > :40:30.What has he got going for him? is very good looking, a good
:40:30. > :40:36.personality. Ed Miliband, the leader of the Labour Party? Yes.
:40:36. > :40:40.think he's a loser. So after almost two hours we've
:40:40. > :40:45.discovered that the public in Manchester are almost exactly
:40:45. > :40:50.evenly split and most people don't seem to matter whether he is posh
:40:50. > :40:57.or not, so that was worth it wasn't it? I enjoyed the case of mistaken
:40:57. > :41:01.identity. Adam phlegming is Ed Miliband, clear. We have two of the
:41:01. > :41:05.country's most renowned social anthropologists, from Liverpool Dr
:41:05. > :41:07.Derek "Deggsy" Hatton, former leader of Liverpool Council, and
:41:07. > :41:13.Professor Charles "Charlie" Falconer, the former Lord
:41:13. > :41:19.Chancellor. Thank you very much indeed. Mo motion indeed. Is Ed
:41:19. > :41:25.Miliband posh? I don't think he is. The way that posh was being read by
:41:25. > :41:29.people dropping the balls in the boxes means posh means not like me
:41:29. > :41:35.or somebody I want to be the leader of a political party. Every crime
:41:35. > :41:39.seemed to be associated with posh. Derek Hatton, to you what's being
:41:39. > :41:42.posh. I don't think it is so much what Ed Miliband is, but the way
:41:42. > :41:46.he's perceived. I think he got away with a lot yesterday in terms of
:41:46. > :41:51.the way he talked about the threat to the banks and the you turning
:41:51. > :41:58.and everything else. He got away with the sort of language that
:41:58. > :42:05.people can believe that Cameron or Osborne would never have got away.
:42:05. > :42:09.They are perceived as "posh" the whole Eton bit. They are doomed.
:42:09. > :42:13.The fact that Nadine Dorries said that, I think makes it a truism.
:42:13. > :42:19.Because that is the case, Ed Miliband has a real chance of
:42:19. > :42:25.starting to say, hang on a minute, I'm not like that. In the main the
:42:25. > :42:30.perception is people believe him. So it was right to go on about his
:42:30. > :42:33.education, because in your view going to Eton makes you posh and
:42:33. > :42:37.unbelievable. The banks are one of the problems we've got in this
:42:38. > :42:42.country. When Miliband talks about a threat to the banks, people can
:42:42. > :42:47.believe that. I think if Cameron or Osborne made a threat to the banks,
:42:47. > :42:51.nobody would believe him. Does it mean that education, and clearly
:42:51. > :42:55.that's why Ed Miliband made such a play of his comprehensive education,
:42:55. > :43:00.but as the girl said, is it doesn't matter where you went to school.
:43:00. > :43:03.Posh is being used as a surrogate for can you connect with the public,
:43:03. > :43:07.in the sense do I understands what the public is going through at the
:43:07. > :43:15.moment? I don't think it matters what your background, is though it
:43:15. > :43:19.is is a means of expressing your values. Roosevelt did brilliantly
:43:19. > :43:24.in expressing the travails of people in the recession and he was
:43:24. > :43:31.very posh, but he did contact. Attlee, the most successful Prime
:43:31. > :43:36.Minister, went to a private school. He spoke a lot about the values and
:43:36. > :43:39.yet he was able to connect with people who came back from the war.
:43:39. > :43:44.Isn't it also about perception? I think you are right but the problem
:43:44. > :43:49.is if someone's been to Eton, talks the way they do, they will never
:43:49. > :43:53.really be seen as someone who identifies with ordinary people.
:43:53. > :43:58.What about Boris Johnson? You could arguably say he is posh and he
:43:58. > :44:04.connect with ordinary people. has got in as a court jester there.
:44:04. > :44:09.Is always one court jester who will break the rules, likes of Cameron
:44:09. > :44:14.and Osborne would never break those rule us. If it starts to go wrong
:44:14. > :44:24.your poshness is a real barrier to reect canning but if you are
:44:24. > :44:24.
:44:24. > :44:29.reasoning -- a real barrier to reconnecting. Blair was able to
:44:29. > :44:33.express what the country wanted and he expressed a degree of aspiration.
:44:33. > :44:38.Just as Roosevelt was incredibly be the at expressing against the
:44:38. > :44:42.establishment the views of those in travails during the recession.
:44:42. > :44:47.were talking yesterday that Ed Miliband may have gone to a
:44:48. > :44:52.comprehensive school but he did come from an intellectual elite and
:44:52. > :44:56.did mix with people most voters wouldn't have had the chance to
:44:56. > :45:00.connect with. He was known as a geek and a pointy head. It's not
:45:00. > :45:04.what you've done but the way you are perceived. Tony Blair did go to
:45:04. > :45:08.one of the poshest schools in Scotland but people don't identify
:45:08. > :45:14.that school as an Eton. They know what Eton is. They know the way
:45:14. > :45:24.Cameron and Osborne behave. They see that's that public school bit
:45:24. > :45:32.
:45:32. > :45:35.about them. But Cameron still polls $:/STARTFEED. When they see what it
:45:35. > :45:40.means, whenever it's true or whether he believes it or not, I
:45:40. > :45:45.don't know the bloke, but I do know he did a very good job of actually
:45:45. > :45:49.taking that next step. I agree with that. Did it come across as
:45:49. > :45:54.authentic? Yes. Because he was apparently speaking about his
:45:54. > :45:58.background. So background does matter? It matters, but what comes
:45:58. > :46:04.out of your background is not necessarily because you are posh
:46:04. > :46:07.being a bad politician. Derek is saying it's about perception and it
:46:07. > :46:12.can change over time, because I would say one of the things about
:46:12. > :46:15.David Cameron he was successful at the beginning at looking as if he
:46:15. > :46:19.could connect, despite his very posh background. Over time, what
:46:19. > :46:23.he's done has suggested to the British public that actually he is
:46:23. > :46:28.posh to the extent that he prioritises the rich over families,
:46:28. > :46:32.that he's willing to accept one of his ministers calling a police
:46:32. > :46:36.officer a pleb. Those begin to change the way people think. Is it
:46:36. > :46:41.dangerous for Labour to try to exploit that in a sense, to go for
:46:41. > :46:45.the sort of anti-toff campaign? It didn't work for them when they did
:46:45. > :46:50.that. I think what is happening is this is Ed Miliband, this is where
:46:50. > :46:58.he comes from, this is what he's like, take him or leave him, but
:46:58. > :47:03.it's authentic and the absence is dangerous. Boris is strong because
:47:03. > :47:09.these authentic and people can relate. Ed is exposing himself and
:47:09. > :47:16.it's authentic what we are seeing. The public must now make a judgment,
:47:16. > :47:20.but inauthentic is non-starting. It's about what people see as the
:47:20. > :47:24.issue. Jacqui Smith was right when she said it was once immigration
:47:24. > :47:29.and now it's the economy and the banks. People never believe that
:47:29. > :47:33.the likes of Osborne or Cameron will take on the banks. They do -
:47:33. > :47:39.but people are starting to believe that Miliband will. Thank you all
:47:39. > :47:45.very much. Charlie will be joining me on This Week tomorrow night on
:47:45. > :47:48.BBC One, along with Michael Portillo. It will be a very posh
:47:48. > :47:51.programme indeed. Yesterday all the talk was of Ed Miliband's big
:47:51. > :47:52.speech to Labour conference. But in a daring midnight raid by new
:47:52. > :47:55.Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin, the Government
:47:55. > :47:58.attempted to snatch the headlines away from Labour by announcing that
:47:58. > :48:01.its decision to award the West Coast main line to FirstGroup
:48:01. > :48:03.instead of rival Virgin Trains has been derailed, thanks to a series
:48:03. > :48:13.of deeply regrettable mistakes in the way the Department for
:48:13. > :48:19.
:48:19. > :48:24.Transport has handled the franchise process. Some may call it a
:48:24. > :48:27.shambles, other an omnishambles. Jo, bring us up to speed. The West
:48:27. > :48:30.Coast Main Line, which runs from London to the Midlands, the North
:48:30. > :48:32.West and Scotland is Britain's most lucrative rail network. It's been
:48:32. > :48:35.run since privitisation in the 1990s by Sir Richard Branson's
:48:35. > :48:38.Virgin Rail. But in August this year, Virgin's franchise deal hit
:48:38. > :48:44.the buffers, when the Department for Transport said Virgin had been
:48:44. > :48:47.outbid by its arch-rival FirstGroup. There were angry objections from
:48:47. > :48:50.Virgin, which decided to take the Government to the High Court.
:48:50. > :48:52.Ministers, however, vowed to press ahead with the new deal, but at
:48:52. > :48:54.midnight last night Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said
:48:54. > :49:00.that significant technical flaws had been uncovered in the bid
:49:00. > :49:03.process, making clear it was the fault of his department.
:49:03. > :49:09.FirstGroup's contract has now been cancelled and the Government is to
:49:09. > :49:11.reimburse all four bidders for the line to the tune of �40 million.
:49:11. > :49:16.They've also suspended all other rail franchsing deals while two
:49:16. > :49:19.independent inquiries are carried out. It's still unclear whether
:49:19. > :49:24.Virgin will continue to operate the line when its contract ends in
:49:24. > :49:26.December or whether it will have to be run by the Government. The
:49:26. > :49:28.announcement is particularly embarrassing for the Government
:49:29. > :49:32.because it has repeatedly insisted that the franchise deal had been
:49:32. > :49:35.properly handled. Here's the last Transport Secretary Justine
:49:35. > :49:44.Greening and the man who took over from her last month, Patrick
:49:44. > :49:51.McLoughlin. It's been a very fair and rigorous and robust process. It
:49:51. > :49:56.was a process that all the bidders bought into. Virgin have now raised
:49:56. > :49:59.concerns, but it's been a extremely fair process. It's actually so
:49:59. > :50:04.rigorously structured so it doesn't have political interference, so
:50:04. > :50:09.that we just get the best deal for the taxpayer and for passengers and
:50:09. > :50:13.that's the one that we are going with. They were all very carefully
:50:13. > :50:17.evaluated. We had industry experts involved with the evaluations for
:50:17. > :50:21.part of that process and I'm confident we have come out with the
:50:21. > :50:25.right bid. There was the exhaustive procedure that was gone through.
:50:25. > :50:29.Two companies went to huge amounts of effort to try and win that bid
:50:29. > :50:36.and it was judged fairly by the department and it is ow intention
:50:36. > :50:40.to proceed with the bid that the winners made and I'm content with
:50:40. > :50:45.the way the department exercised its review and I'm satisfied that
:50:45. > :50:53.due diligence was done by the department and therefore the
:50:53. > :50:58.intention is to go ahead with the contract when we can. Joining me
:50:58. > :51:02.now is Kwasi Kwarteng, who sits on the Transport Select Committee and
:51:02. > :51:06.from Manchester, the Shadow Transport Secretary, Maria Eagle.
:51:06. > :51:09.Kwasi Kwarteng, you first. You must be great to to Richard Branson for
:51:09. > :51:13.pursuing litigation against the Government, otherwise we would
:51:13. > :51:17.never have found out about this cockup? I think he was absolutely
:51:17. > :51:22.right. I took evidence with other committee members and I think he
:51:23. > :51:26.gave a good account and identified the risk, which was it was all the
:51:27. > :51:31.asuplgtss of the FirstGroup were ambitious and -- the asupplementss
:51:31. > :51:36.of FirstGroup were ambition and it was backended. The Virgin deal gave
:51:36. > :51:39.the taxpayer more value for money. At the hearings when you accused
:51:39. > :51:44.Richard Branson of using his prestige and fame to get his own
:51:44. > :51:51.way, you were wrong? What I said, I carefully put my question, but I
:51:51. > :51:57.said some people might say. said, "You are resorting to heavy
:51:57. > :52:02.art tillary ...." If you look at the tape I said people are saying.
:52:02. > :52:07.You wouldn't have said that unless you sympathised with that view.
:52:07. > :52:12.job is to be impartial and to ask difficult questions of witnesses.
:52:12. > :52:18.You don't think you owe him an apology? I can't be a cheerleader
:52:18. > :52:23.for any other interest. Do you owe him an apology? I don't think I do.
:52:23. > :52:27.I was doing my job as a member of the committee. Will the Government
:52:27. > :52:32.lay all the blame on the Civil Servants? I'm not sure how they're
:52:32. > :52:37.going to deal with it. Should they? I think there should be some
:52:37. > :52:40.ministerial responsibility. What do you mean by that? I think we should
:52:40. > :52:45.apologise and say - The Transport Secretary has done that. He's
:52:45. > :52:50.absolutely right to do that. Marie eagle, it seems that the mistakes
:52:50. > :52:56.were made by Civil Servants when it came to calculations about the
:52:56. > :53:01.inflation rate to 2026 and about passenger numbers. Should ministers
:53:01. > :53:06.be held responsible for detailed mathematical mistakes by Civil
:53:06. > :53:10.Servants? Ministers have to satisfy themselves that the way in which
:53:10. > :53:12.this process is run is handled well and there is ministerial
:53:12. > :53:15.responsibility. If there's wrongdoing and if things are
:53:15. > :53:19.concealed from ministers, that's something slightly different. We'll
:53:19. > :53:22.have to get to the bottom of all of this in respect of what happened in
:53:22. > :53:25.this particular instance, but I think it shows what Ed Miliband was
:53:25. > :53:30.saying yesterday, we have a Government that is grossly
:53:30. > :53:35.incompetent. They have redesigned the franchise system, they have set
:53:35. > :53:37.it out for 13 to 15-year processes and now there are basic issues
:53:38. > :53:42.wrong and they have to accept responsibility. It's a shambles.
:53:42. > :53:48.When you were a minister in Government did you check your Civil
:53:48. > :53:55.Servants and their maths? I did. You did? Obviously, yes. You have
:53:55. > :53:59.to be careful that you are fully satisfied that processes, which can
:53:59. > :54:02.result in a serious legal action, which are worth billions of pounds,
:54:02. > :54:07.are properly handled. It is not apparent to me that they've done
:54:07. > :54:10.that. We have got incompetence in this Government that goes not only
:54:10. > :54:14.into Department for Transport, but all the way to the top and that's
:54:14. > :54:20.quite clear. They have to take responsibility and short this
:54:20. > :54:25.shambles out. Should alarm bells not have rung, Kwasi Kwarteng, when
:54:25. > :54:28.- and should your committee - didn't catch that. I've gone back
:54:28. > :54:33.to Kwasi Kwarteng. Should alarm bells not have rung and should your
:54:33. > :54:38.committee not have spotted this, that the FirstGroup offer relied on
:54:38. > :54:42.revenues growing by more than 10% a year? These are questions that were
:54:42. > :54:45.raised in the committee hearing. When they came in. We asked them.
:54:45. > :54:49.Why didn't you rumble it? We said they were bold. I said that. My
:54:49. > :54:54.colleagues on the committee said that. Your committee didn't produce
:54:54. > :54:57.a report said the Government better look at this again. Maybe we should
:54:57. > :55:02.have done. We certainly asked the right questions and when you
:55:02. > :55:05.suggested to me I should apologise to Richard Branson, I think that's
:55:05. > :55:08.completely inappropriate. I had to be impartial and ask difficult
:55:08. > :55:12.questions of both sides. You may have asked the right questions, but
:55:12. > :55:16.didn't come up with the right answer, because you didn't put any
:55:16. > :55:19.resistance to this deal going ahead. Not you personally, but the
:55:19. > :55:29.committee? I accept the fact that the committee could have been more
:55:29. > :55:29.
:55:29. > :55:33.robust in its conclusions. Let me go to Marie eagle. Is it your
:55:33. > :55:36.position that you want it to be run by the same Government structure
:55:36. > :55:41.that runs the east coastline? Correct me if I'm wrong about your
:55:41. > :55:46.policy. Is that a temporary position or a permanent position?
:55:46. > :55:51.There are short-term and long-term issues here. Give me both.
:55:51. > :55:54.franchise expires on 9th December and I think it would be very
:55:54. > :55:57.difficult for the Transport Secretary to enable one or two of
:55:57. > :56:05.the bidders who are engaged in litigation to continue to run it
:56:05. > :56:09.making a profit. We would support him in allowing the not-for-
:56:09. > :56:17.private-profit Government-owned company to run the West Coast Main
:56:17. > :56:20.Line. That's temporary. What about permanent? In terms of the east
:56:20. > :56:25.coast -- the East Coast Main Line, which this firm runs returning the
:56:25. > :56:29.money to the taxpayer that would be shared with shareholders if it were
:56:29. > :56:34.franchised out, we believe that should stay in the public ownership.
:56:34. > :56:38.Should the West Coast Main Line return to public ownership? Well, I
:56:38. > :56:42.think that when the contract expires on 9th December we would
:56:42. > :56:48.support the Transport Secretary. You have said that. That's
:56:48. > :56:52.temporary. Should it become permanent? We are going through our
:56:52. > :56:55.policy review process to come up with the way in which we should
:56:55. > :57:00.handle Inter city lines in the future. We have a devolution agenda
:57:00. > :57:04.for local rail. We believe very strongly we should look at getting
:57:04. > :57:10.better value for taxpayers out of the way in which we run the lines
:57:10. > :57:14.and we are looking - You haven't got one? Once again you haven't got
:57:14. > :57:18.a policy? It's not that we haven't got a policy. We are having a
:57:18. > :57:22.review that looks at the best way of getting best value for money.
:57:22. > :57:26.This flawed franchise system does not appear to be working well.
:57:26. > :57:29.Kwasi Kwarteng, if it's a flawed system, which the west line clearly
:57:29. > :57:35.shows, there are three others coming up, Great Western,
:57:35. > :57:41.Thameslink, Essex Thames side. Should they go ahead? The problem
:57:41. > :57:44.wasn't with the system, but the application of their own rules. The
:57:44. > :57:48.issue with the West Coast Main Line is that the bond that was used to
:57:48. > :57:53.secure was 200 million and it should have been 600 million.
:57:53. > :57:56.Should these go ahead or should we not call a halt until we get a root
:57:56. > :58:01.and branch investigation into this? I think that would be an
:58:01. > :58:04.overreaction. I think this was a specific problem with this specific
:58:04. > :58:09.contract. How much do you think FirstGroup will sue your
:58:09. > :58:14.Government? I don't know. It's up to them. 30 seconds to you. Even
:58:14. > :58:21.without suing, there is �40 million of taxpayers' money that is likely
:58:21. > :58:24.to be used up on this. They have to give it back. It's Government waste
:58:24. > :58:29.and incompetence and it's serious for passengers and it plays into
:58:29. > :58:33.what Ed was saying yesterday. That's it for today. We thank all
:58:33. > :58:38.of our guests. Thank you to Jacqui Smith for being guest of the day.
:58:38. > :58:42.The news is starting over on BBC One. Jo will be here at noon
:58:42. > :58:46.tomorrow with all the big political stories. I won't be back until BBC
:58:46. > :58:52.One late tomorrow night after Question Time with This Week.