:00:42. > :00:45.Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Computer hacker
:00:45. > :00:49.Gary McKinnon awaits his fate as the Home Secretary prepares to
:00:49. > :00:52.announce whether she will block his extradition to the US. We will
:00:52. > :00:56.bring you that decision. Her inflation is at its lowest
:00:56. > :01:00.level for almost three years, but with food and energy prices on the
:01:01. > :01:05.rise, how long will that last? Les but calls for a public inquiry
:01:05. > :01:13.into the allegations of sexual abuse by Jimmy Savile in a school,
:01:13. > :01:17.hospitals and at the BBC. To Guantanamo, US base on Cuba, the
:01:17. > :01:25.US sends reinforcement of Marines. And it is 50 years since the Cuban
:01:25. > :01:30.missile crisis. How close did we get to nuclear war?
:01:30. > :01:35.All that in the next hour. With us today is the Labour peer and
:01:35. > :01:38.broadcaster, Baroness Joan Bakewell. Let's start with that imminent
:01:38. > :01:43.decision on whether computer hacker Gary McKinnon should face charges
:01:43. > :01:47.in the United States of hacking into Pentagon computer systems. The
:01:47. > :01:50.Home Secretary, Theresa May, is due to make a statement in the Commons
:01:50. > :01:54.in the next half-hour. She has to decide whether to block the
:01:54. > :01:57.extradition on human rights grounds. He has been diagnosed with
:01:57. > :02:01.Asperger's Syndrome and medical reports say he would be a suicide
:02:02. > :02:05.risk if sent to the US, where he could face up to 60 years in jail.
:02:05. > :02:10.His is just one of a number of cases that have led to questions
:02:10. > :02:12.about whether the extradition treaty with the US it is fair. The
:02:12. > :02:17.former Liberal Democrat leader Ming Campbell has written a report on
:02:17. > :02:21.the treaty for the Liberal Democrats, and he joins us now. How
:02:21. > :02:25.significant is his decision today by Theresa May? Is it is very
:02:25. > :02:29.significant, not just in relation to Gary McKinnon, but in relation
:02:29. > :02:35.to the other elements of the whole issue of extradition. The Home
:02:35. > :02:39.Secretary has taken her time. There was the Baker report. She has taken
:02:39. > :02:46.some months to consider that. In addition to any decision about Gary
:02:46. > :02:50.McKinnon, there are two other issues am concerned about. Firstly,
:02:50. > :02:55.there is deciding whether British citizens should be prosecuted. At
:02:55. > :02:57.the moment, that is done by the Director of Public Prosecutions. I
:02:57. > :03:01.hope the Home Secretary will announce that that will now be done
:03:02. > :03:06.by a judge in an open court. The other thing refers to the differing
:03:06. > :03:10.standards of proof required. If you want to get an American citizen to
:03:10. > :03:13.Britain by extradition, you have to show a probable cause, whereas if
:03:13. > :03:17.you are doing the reverse and getting a British citizen to the
:03:17. > :03:20.United States, a reasonable suspicion is enough. It is an
:03:20. > :03:25.important distinction and I hope the Home Secretary deals with these
:03:25. > :03:29.matters. There is huge political pressure on her, because both David
:03:29. > :03:34.Cameron and Nick Clegg, before the general election, said Gary
:03:34. > :03:38.McKinnon should not be extradited to the US. One might presume that
:03:38. > :03:45.she will block the extradition? don't think you can presume
:03:45. > :03:52.anything. There is a variety of alternatives flowing about the
:03:52. > :03:55.House of Commons this morning. It does appear to be the case that two
:03:55. > :04:00.independent examiners, a psychiatrist and psychologist, have
:04:00. > :04:03.seen Mr MacKinnon recently and written a report, extracts of which
:04:03. > :04:08.have been produced which suggest that they would support, from a
:04:08. > :04:11.medical point of view, the contention that he should not be
:04:11. > :04:15.extradited on human rights grounds. But that does not bind the
:04:15. > :04:21.Secretary of State. She has to exercise her own discretion. It is
:04:21. > :04:25.there a risk of a precedent being set here? There has to be a law in
:04:25. > :04:30.these cases that applies to everyone equally. If she does block
:04:30. > :04:35.this extradition, then it could open the floodgates in terms of
:04:35. > :04:40.requests. You are right. If the decision is not to extradite Gary
:04:40. > :04:45.McKinnon, the Home Secretary would have to justify it by saying that
:04:45. > :04:49.there were special and particular circumstances in this case. It is
:04:49. > :04:54.in the interests of Great Britain and the United States that we have
:04:54. > :04:59.an effective extradition system. That system must be consistent with
:04:59. > :05:03.human rights, be legal and more fundamentally, it has to be a
:05:03. > :05:10.system in which the British public has confidence. That confidence has
:05:10. > :05:16.not been on display recently. We will hopefully hear from Theresa
:05:16. > :05:21.May within the next half-hour. Joan Bakewell, to some extent, this
:05:21. > :05:28.extradition treaty was used in order to allow a flow of terror
:05:28. > :05:32.suspects. Indeed, he came -- it came in after 9/11. There was a
:05:32. > :05:37.flood of concern and legislation to make it easier to pursue terrorists.
:05:37. > :05:42.Hacking into the pan Digan is of course a shocking crime -- hacking
:05:42. > :05:47.into the Pentagon. But the point Menzies makes is important, that
:05:47. > :05:50.the public at large field that Gary McKinnon should be given the
:05:50. > :05:56.benefit of the medical reports. The human rights issue about his
:05:56. > :06:02.Asperger's syndrome should weigh with the judgment. I agree with
:06:02. > :06:07.that. Although legislation has to be seen to be fair, it is easier
:06:07. > :06:11.for Americans -- for America to extradite people from here than it
:06:11. > :06:21.is for us to extradite from there. There were the NatWest three and so
:06:21. > :06:22.
:06:22. > :06:26.on. We want fairness and compassion. But is there then a risk that
:06:26. > :06:30.medical grounds, or human rights legislation, could be used to keep
:06:30. > :06:36.people here who we don't necessarily want to keep, who
:06:36. > :06:40.should be extradited? Every case is a particular one. If people try and
:06:40. > :06:43.win the lead and say there is a medical case for this, it has to be
:06:43. > :06:52.recognised. People are skilled enough to know these things and
:06:52. > :06:58.whether they are genuine. Asperger's is a very elusive
:06:58. > :07:03.problem, so it would take experts to assess it. But it is not beyond
:07:03. > :07:07.the means of intelligent people. Now, as you may have heard, the
:07:07. > :07:12.rate of inflation has dropped to its lowest level for nearly three
:07:12. > :07:16.years. Relieved? Well, unfortunately, it is not as simple
:07:16. > :07:21.as the headline suggests. The rate of consumer price index inflation
:07:21. > :07:24.fell from 2.5% in August to 2.2% in September. Although the slowing
:07:24. > :07:28.pace in living costs will be a relief for many, those claiming the
:07:28. > :07:32.basic state pension or benefits are likely to see a smaller increase
:07:32. > :07:36.next April because the September inflation figures are used as the
:07:36. > :07:40.basis to calculate any rises. The downward trend is also likely to be
:07:40. > :07:44.coming to an end. The Office of National Statistics has warned that
:07:44. > :07:48.inflation is likely to rise in the coming months. A poor harvest has
:07:48. > :07:53.pushed up grain prices, which will increase the cost of food. The big
:07:53. > :07:56.energy companies, including British Gas, Npower and SSE, have recently
:07:56. > :08:01.increased energy prices, which is likely to have an upward impact on
:08:01. > :08:04.future figures. Some experts are warning that the increasing
:08:04. > :08:12.university tuition fees will also contribute to the end of a downward
:08:12. > :08:16.pattern in inflation. For many of us, the outlook seems less positive.
:08:16. > :08:21.Merryn Somerset Webb of money Week magazine joins me now. Presumably
:08:21. > :08:26.the first impression is that it is a good piece of news that inflation
:08:26. > :08:30.is on its way down? Absolutely, but if it is only temporary, it does
:08:30. > :08:36.not help as much. There are several things which will push inflation up
:08:36. > :08:38.over the coming months. Before this month is almost entirely due to
:08:38. > :08:47.rises in utility prices from last year coming out, and utility prices
:08:47. > :08:51.are about to go up again. That will come back in. The poor harvest will
:08:51. > :08:57.also affect things. So will tuition fees. What happens to inflation is
:08:57. > :09:04.also dependent on what happens to our currency. So this is really a
:09:04. > :09:08.blip, and actually, we will see rises coming in soon? Yes. And the
:09:08. > :09:13.problem with that is that the thing that matters about inflation is its
:09:13. > :09:17.impact on confidence. Over the last couple of years, inflation has
:09:17. > :09:22.consistently been higher than expected. Now they expect inflation
:09:22. > :09:27.to be volatile, which affects confidence and spending. That is a
:09:27. > :09:30.big deal for the economy. though it is good if you are in
:09:30. > :09:37.work and for households generally, what about for pensioners and those
:09:37. > :09:41.on benefits? The Chancellor mainly takes the September rises in
:09:41. > :09:46.account when he decides on benefits and payments to pensioners. Last
:09:47. > :09:52.year, inflation was high, so the rises were high. This year, it is
:09:52. > :09:56.lower, so it balances out. With us now is Conservative MP and member
:09:56. > :10:01.of the Treasury Select Committee Jesse Norman. Good news for a
:10:01. > :10:05.change? I think it is good news on two France, first at the cost falls
:10:05. > :10:12.in inflation are always welcome and the inflation rate has halved over
:10:12. > :10:19.the last two years. You ask, it has gone down from 5.2%. A tremendous
:10:19. > :10:23.win. The second reason it is good is because even when there is some
:10:23. > :10:27.re-rating to pensions, there is still a back place -- backstop
:10:27. > :10:34.which the government put in place to say it cannot be less than 2.5%.
:10:34. > :10:39.So even if there were an incentive to lower payments, it would still
:10:39. > :10:44.be 2.5%. But to to still difficult for pensioners. It is still
:10:44. > :10:47.difficult for pensioners, and I think it is a blip. With the shore
:10:47. > :10:52.of rises that are coming, particularly the rise in food
:10:52. > :10:58.prices, they will be seriously affected by the drought in America.
:10:58. > :11:03.Pensioners are not sanguine about things. They do affect things that
:11:03. > :11:07.affect their cost of living to rise. They will wait to see what happens.
:11:07. > :11:12.Isn't the problem that actually, the cost of living element, so when
:11:12. > :11:16.we talk about the food prices rising, energy bills and fuel costs,
:11:16. > :11:20.those are things households have to spend money on, and those other
:11:20. > :11:25.things the Government can do nothing about? The artisan embedded
:11:25. > :11:30.problem in general. Joan is right that pensioners could reasonably
:11:30. > :11:35.feel concerned. In my constituency, older people are very concerned
:11:35. > :11:39.about fuel and petrol prices and increases in food prices. We are in
:11:39. > :11:43.danger of seeing a hike in food prices after the bad harvest in
:11:43. > :11:47.Britain. And there has been a bad harvest in many other parts of the
:11:48. > :11:53.world. It could be stormy weather ahead. The but where will inflation
:11:53. > :11:58.go from here? We have heard it is probably going to go straight back
:11:58. > :12:07.up again, so it will be a short- lived benefit, if any benefit at
:12:07. > :12:17.all. We are in a time of extraordinarily difficult economic
:12:17. > :12:17.
:12:17. > :12:22.trouble generally. That is not very comforting. Unfortunately, when you
:12:22. > :12:27.are in choppy seas, confidence is not what you expect. We will would
:12:27. > :12:32.not be out of them for a few years. A but from a consumer point of view,
:12:33. > :12:37.are we looking at years of continued squeeze in household
:12:37. > :12:41.expenditure and a squeeze on living standards? Wages have not risen in
:12:41. > :12:46.real terms over the past few years. The air is no doubt that we will
:12:46. > :12:52.continue to see a squeeze on living standards and household expenditure.
:12:52. > :12:56.One wishes it could be different. The economy works in cycles. It
:12:56. > :13:00.goes through periods of feast and famine. We missed a period of
:13:00. > :13:05.famine in the early 2000s because there was so much extra spending.
:13:05. > :13:10.We are now reaping the harvest of that, in a long term sustainable
:13:10. > :13:19.period of living standards. That is inevitable. It is not inevitable.
:13:20. > :13:24.The OBR and the IMF are beginning to say that austerity has gone too
:13:24. > :13:30.far. It is having repercussions on the economy which could be avoided.
:13:30. > :13:34.I do not think that is true. They have said one or two little things.
:13:34. > :13:39.I don't know if you are taking a political position on this, but if
:13:39. > :13:45.you are, you will recall that the IMF has been supportive of the
:13:45. > :13:50.Government for the previous two years. Now it is saying, how long
:13:50. > :13:53.can austerity go on for? They are right to raise the question, but
:13:53. > :13:57.the consensus of opinion is still on the government's side. By but
:13:57. > :14:02.they have also said the measure of the impact on the economy of
:14:02. > :14:07.austerity has been underestimated. They think this term, the fiscal
:14:07. > :14:11.multiplier, has been underestimated and that actually, every pound cut
:14:11. > :14:16.has a greater impact on the economy than George Osborne and the IMF
:14:16. > :14:23.first thought. I don't think that bears on the central economic
:14:23. > :14:28.judgment. In 2010 Comedy Central judgment was, wasn't the right
:14:28. > :14:35.thing to do to take control of the economic mess this country? It was
:14:35. > :14:43.clearly right. Even now, look at the alternatives. The alternatives
:14:43. > :14:48.are to allow borrowing costs... Borrowing is going up anyway.
:14:48. > :14:54.alternative is to allow our long- term borrowing costs to go up. That
:14:54. > :14:58.will clobber households even more. That is the inevitable counterpart
:14:58. > :15:02.of Joan's idea that we should go and spend. Spending will not work.
:15:02. > :15:07.People in a get hold do not spend the money they receive through tax
:15:07. > :15:16.cuts or government programmes, they keep it to pay off the debts.
:15:16. > :15:19.Spending can bring jobs. And it will give people who are unemployed
:15:20. > :15:24.the resources. When unemployed people get an income, they spend it
:15:24. > :15:29.all because they have such needs. You would have higher spending
:15:29. > :15:37.across a whole swathe of re- employed people. What share of GDP
:15:37. > :15:44.is consumed by the government at the moment? 42? For 49. The
:15:45. > :15:50.historical problem has been that we have gone from 38-40% for decades
:15:50. > :15:55.to the 49% now. To start to restrain the huge increase in state
:15:55. > :16:05.spending. It does not help people. It depresses growth and is a bad
:16:05. > :16:05.
:16:05. > :16:10.What about now? George Osborne made that argument in 2010 and it was
:16:10. > :16:15.accepted by many people, in terms of reigning in public expenditure,
:16:15. > :16:21.but much of the, or many of the cuts have been to investment, have
:16:21. > :16:27.been to capital expenditure, do you this that has harmed the growth
:16:27. > :16:31.prospects of the economy? I think the Government needs to be training
:16:31. > :16:38.every sinew to increase capital expenditure. That is why some of
:16:38. > :16:42.the work I have been doing on reforming PFI is important. It
:16:42. > :16:47.feeds through into hieing less expensive expenditure. They haven't
:16:47. > :16:52.got the banks to lend on the scale it needs. It keeps launching
:16:52. > :16:55.different ideas to get the banks to lend to people who want, small
:16:55. > :16:58.businesses and so on, it isn't working to the extent that is
:16:58. > :17:02.necessary. Surely you recognise that. Can I bring it back, just to
:17:02. > :17:07.inflation and prices and how people are feeling. Politically, let us
:17:07. > :17:10.move away from the economics, how difficult is it going to be for
:17:10. > :17:14.your Government to get people to vote for them, when people are
:17:14. > :17:19.going to continue to feel this squeeze, which you have admitted is
:17:19. > :17:23.going to go on. T. It has been clear this will be a long-term
:17:23. > :17:28.process. T I think you will not see the current benefits during the
:17:28. > :17:31.life of this Parliament. I think there is actually, if we were
:17:31. > :17:38.honest, a kind of heroism in saying we are going to do something that
:17:38. > :17:42.we know is tough and difficult, even if we can say we won't reap
:17:42. > :17:45.the political benefits. Will people thank you for that, if you continue
:17:45. > :17:52.admitting you can't do anything about the energy prices, the fuel
:17:53. > :17:58.prices, into the future, and there is still no growth. A lot of things
:17:58. > :18:01.have been done to mitigate that. That is what they want do you look
:18:01. > :18:06.at. I agree with that. It is obviously right to bear down on
:18:06. > :18:10.that. The key question is if there is the beginnings of sustainable
:18:10. > :18:13.high quality, not just high, growth, coming through the end of the
:18:13. > :18:23.Parliament, I think they will realise the nay Sayers who said
:18:23. > :18:26.turn again half way through, will right be right. The BBC, a girls
:18:26. > :18:28.school and three NHS hospitals all implicated in the flood of
:18:28. > :18:32.allegations of sexual abuse committed by Jimmy Savile.
:18:33. > :18:38.Yesterday, questions were asked in the Commons about how the late DJ
:18:38. > :18:42.and TV presenter was able to conceal evidence of his behaviour
:18:42. > :18:47.over five decades and whether public institutions turned a blind
:18:47. > :18:54.eye. MPs wanted to know why a BBC Newsnight report being prepared in
:18:54. > :18:59.the aftermath of Savile's death was not broadcast. The BBC has launched
:18:59. > :19:03.three separate investigations, the first will look particularly at the
:19:03. > :19:07.allegations with regards to the item on Savile, which was
:19:07. > :19:11.inappropriately pulled from Newsnight. The second review to be
:19:11. > :19:15.undertaken when the police advice it is appropriate to do so, will
:19:15. > :19:20.focus on Jimmy Savile himself, and although the BBC's child protection
:19:20. > :19:25.policy was overhauled in 2000 2 the are view will focus on whether its
:19:25. > :19:27.policy is fit for purpose and what lessons can be learned. That will
:19:27. > :19:31.be assisted by an independent expert there San additional piece
:19:31. > :19:35.of work that will look at the troubling allegation of sexual
:19:35. > :19:39.harassment at the BBC that have come to light in recent weeks.
:19:39. > :19:42.Everyone has been sickened by the vile abuse perpetrated by Jimmy
:19:42. > :19:48.Savile, and it similar possible to overstate the suffering caused to
:19:48. > :19:55.those he abused. And what has deepened the revulsion is this
:19:55. > :20:00.happened at the BBC, an institution so loved and trusted it is known as
:20:00. > :20:03."auntie". Does she agree that no- one should be complacent and
:20:04. > :20:08.believe sexual abuse by people in position of power happened then,
:20:08. > :20:13.but could not happen now? And that is why the BBC should proceed now
:20:13. > :20:16.to review all its policies and process on protection of children,
:20:16. > :20:22.sexual harassment and whistle- blowing to be sure the right
:20:22. > :20:26.policies and processes are in place, and they are properly enforced.
:20:26. > :20:29.I echo the remarks that the revelation of recent weeks raise
:20:29. > :20:32.serious questions, not just about the culture that existed in the BBC
:20:32. > :20:37.some years ago, and in other organisation, but about the way in
:20:37. > :20:43.which the BBC has handled this and in particular the very damaging
:20:43. > :20:47.suggestion that the Newsnight investigation was suppressed.
:20:47. > :20:51.may have heard the Culture Secretary Maria Miller saying the
:20:51. > :20:55.Newsnight investigation into Jimmy Savile had been "inappropriately
:20:55. > :20:59.dropped. "Her spokesperson said she had meant to say only that the BBC
:20:59. > :21:03.was investigating whether or not the investigation had been
:21:03. > :21:08.inappropriately dropped. Well, last night, Ed Miliband weighed inwhen
:21:08. > :21:13.he was questioned on the ITV show The Agenda. These are horrific
:21:13. > :21:17.allegation, now I think in order to do right by the victim, I don't
:21:17. > :21:20.think the BBC can load their own inquiry. I have thought about this
:21:21. > :21:28.as a statement in Parliament today. I think we need a broader look at
:21:28. > :21:31.these public institution, the BBC, I am afraid some parts of the NHS,
:21:31. > :21:34.potentially Broadmoor. I am open minded about how it is done but it
:21:34. > :21:39.has to be independent. I don't think you can have the BBC board. I
:21:39. > :21:43.am a great supporter of the BBC, I don't think you can have the BBC
:21:43. > :21:46.board leading its own inquiry. Miliband there. Rob Wilson is the
:21:46. > :21:49.MP who asked an urgent question on Jimmy Savile in the Commons
:21:50. > :21:54.yesterday. He joins us now. What do you want to find out? I have been
:21:54. > :21:58.asking for an independent inquiry now for over two week, and the BBC,
:21:58. > :22:01.bit by bit, dragging its feet is coming to the point where it is
:22:01. > :22:04.offering an independent inquiry. That is not the same thing that Ed
:22:04. > :22:08.Miliband is asking for, he is asking for a wider public inquiry.
:22:08. > :22:12.I think it is early and premature to be doing that. I think the BBC,
:22:12. > :22:16.if it does have an independent chairman, if it does have an
:22:16. > :22:19.independent panel, can deal with this at the moment. However, it
:22:19. > :22:23.also depends how much comes nowt the next few weeks and months,
:22:23. > :22:26.because I still think we aren't at the bottom of the barrel, in terms
:22:26. > :22:31.of things that will come out. say the BBC has been dragging its
:22:31. > :22:34.feet, but you have just said you would like to wait for the next
:22:34. > :22:38.weeks and months, wouldn't it be better to wait, because there is a
:22:38. > :22:42.sense, I mean listening to Maria Miller there, the Secretary of
:22:42. > :22:45.State, she miss spoke, but a feeling that people have made up
:22:45. > :22:49.their mind that somehow they are pre-judging some of the inquiries.
:22:49. > :22:51.For me with the BBC there are two separate issue, one is about the
:22:51. > :22:55.police and the criminal investigation, and that I think has
:22:55. > :22:59.to happen, the police are right to co-operate with it. The second is
:22:59. > :23:03.about the independent inquiry into the culture of the BBC. There is
:23:03. > :23:08.something, something went badly wrong within the culture of the BBC.
:23:08. > :23:13.We have had stor stories of turning a blind eye, fondling young women,
:23:13. > :23:17.I think that is what needs to be looked at. Why was there this
:23:17. > :23:22.culture that allowed people like Jimmy Savile to be sustained in
:23:22. > :23:26.that culture over such a long period of time. Was there a cull --
:23:26. > :23:29.culture of that? You are younger than I am and I remember it. It was
:23:30. > :23:35.the culture of the time. Older than I look. You were there at the time.
:23:35. > :23:39.Is that a fair, is that a fair allegation against the BBC
:23:39. > :23:43.specifically at that time? No, it was the culture of the Times and it
:23:43. > :23:47.is very hard to identify what that was, decades later, and honestly,
:23:47. > :23:51.how many more inquiries are we going to have? We will have one
:23:51. > :23:54.here, one there, everyone has an opinion suddenly about this, but
:23:54. > :23:58.the opinions that matter, the opinions of the women, who were
:23:58. > :24:02.molested were never listened to. Everyone goes on about where was
:24:02. > :24:06.the evidence, where was the evidence? The evidence was what the
:24:06. > :24:12.women were telling them, They weren't believed at the time.
:24:12. > :24:17.are allegations that the BBC internally suppressed many of those
:24:17. > :24:20.reports. What evidence is there of that? I have had reports from woman,
:24:20. > :24:23.I have spoken to the police about it. There are serious allegations
:24:23. > :24:28.out there and it is up to the police to look at those allegations,
:24:28. > :24:34.but also for this internal inquiry, to look at those allegations as
:24:34. > :24:39.well. Hang on... We were all padded, pinched stroked, the whole female
:24:39. > :24:43.sex was available, in those days, not willingly so in the '60s, it
:24:43. > :24:48.was how you treated women. There was a culture within the BBC of
:24:48. > :24:52.senior management targeting younger employees, female employees.
:24:52. > :24:56.you just talking about the BBC? Are we not talking as Joan is saying
:24:56. > :25:01.across the board in institution, you know, the NHS, potentially,
:25:01. > :25:03.other big institutions where this culture existed? I have asked for
:25:03. > :25:08.investigation to what happened at Stoke Mandeville to take place, I
:25:08. > :25:10.am not just targeting the BBC. I think the police have questioned to
:25:10. > :25:14.ask. The Crown Prosecution Service, children's homes, there are lots of
:25:14. > :25:18.different questions that need to be answered, but that doesn't mean
:25:18. > :25:22.that the BBC shouldn't answer its own questions. You don't have faith
:25:22. > :25:26.in the BBC inquiries themselves, the three inquirys that have been
:25:26. > :25:30.launched? If they sipt an independent chairman, with an
:25:30. > :25:34.independent panel, and they publish the right remit I will be happy for
:25:34. > :25:37.them to do the inquiry. That doesn't mean to say that will be
:25:37. > :25:42.enough ultimately. It depends what we find during that inquiry and
:25:42. > :25:46.whether the results, how the results are defined. That sound
:25:46. > :25:52.like a fishing exercise. To take the point about the culture, how
:25:52. > :25:55.easy would it be to hold an independent inquiry, into a culture
:25:55. > :25:58.decades ago? Well, clearly there will be people who have died if it
:25:58. > :26:02.is 40 years ago, but I think the BBC must have records of people
:26:02. > :26:07.that work there, people are coming forward all the time, there are
:26:07. > :26:10.senior management that is still alive, there are lots of people
:26:10. > :26:13.that can talk about the culture and we have seen in the newspaper, day
:26:13. > :26:17.after day after day, people coming forward and giving their own
:26:17. > :26:21.version of events. Now, somebody independent needs to look at those
:26:21. > :26:24.versions of events and see what the truth is. What matters was the
:26:24. > :26:31.evidence that the women gave at the time, when they were not listened
:26:31. > :26:35.to. That is what is at the core of this. Now, talking about decades
:26:35. > :26:41.past, is really very difficult, because if you remarked in those
:26:41. > :26:46.days, to someone who might be your superior in television, I worked in
:26:46. > :26:49.television in the 60ings, you would have a different reaction than
:26:49. > :26:56.today, there was no law about harassment, the feminist movement
:26:56. > :26:59.hadn't taken off. Women were regarded as perhaps not as reliable,
:26:59. > :27:05.so what you could expect from management, and I don't speculate
:27:05. > :27:11.about what they actually did say, but what you might expect was a "Oh
:27:11. > :27:15.well we have looked into it, we have had a word" some sort of
:27:15. > :27:20.remark would be consistent with the nature of discourse at the time
:27:20. > :27:24.about sexual predators. Bringing this up-to-date, that is not just
:27:24. > :27:27.something that goes back 40 years, I am afraid. It is up-to-date. We
:27:27. > :27:33.have the situation with regard to Newsnight and what happened there,
:27:33. > :27:37.there are lots of unanswered questions about that. What are the
:27:38. > :27:44.unanswered questions? There have been denials that any pressure was
:27:44. > :27:47.put on the editor of Newsnight to drop the investigation, relating to
:27:47. > :27:53.Jimmy Savile. And the editor himself has said that. You don't
:27:53. > :27:58.believe them? I think we need to understand clearly who knew what
:27:58. > :28:01.when. About what? The in terms of what the director general knew
:28:01. > :28:06.about Jimmy Savile, because he says he knew absolutely nothing about
:28:06. > :28:09.the terms of what the investigation was about, only they were about
:28:09. > :28:13.Jimmy Savile. The Newsnight investigation? And people within
:28:13. > :28:17.the BBC are suggesting that is, they are sceptical about that point
:28:17. > :28:20.in particular. He would not have known anything about what was going
:28:20. > :28:24.on with Jimmy Savile. In terms of the editorial reasons that were
:28:25. > :28:29.given by the editor of Newsnight who said, you know, there wasn't
:28:29. > :28:33.enough evidence to carry on, he made an editorial decision. There
:28:33. > :28:36.was an allegation that the investigation was changed half way
:28:36. > :28:40.through, to one where it was looking at these issues to do with
:28:40. > :28:44.the women and Jimmy Savile, to an investigation about what the CPS
:28:44. > :28:48.knew and what the weight of evidence was. Now, why was that
:28:48. > :28:53.changed? If it was changed. We need to find out. Programmes get made
:28:53. > :28:56.over a period of time and adjust all their findings, the more they
:28:56. > :29:03.discover and the more evidence they find, and the more they put
:29:03. > :29:07.together, what is going to be a fool-proof legally sound story. And
:29:07. > :29:11.you shift and find out more, a programme gets made by changing its
:29:11. > :29:14.mind all the time. So you are saying the BBC should have nothing
:29:14. > :29:20.to hide. It should publish the scripts and be open and transparent
:29:20. > :29:26.about what happened. I am happy for that to happen. The BBC asence
:29:26. > :29:29.truetion in crisis and has to have a inquiry, without question. Do you
:29:29. > :29:35.agree it should be independent? Are politicians getting to a stage
:29:35. > :29:39.where they are always calling for an independent inquiry. I think the
:29:39. > :29:42.BBC knees to have a BBC inquiry. Think they need to have an
:29:42. > :29:46.independent inquiry. This is their crisis, they need to deal with it
:29:46. > :29:51.and pay for it, but it will come from the license fee payer, because
:29:51. > :29:56.that is where all the BBC's money comes from. Is that well spent..
:29:56. > :30:01.Yes, if it clears up the BBC. don't think we have the problem
:30:01. > :30:05.today. You not read the papers Joan? I will have to end it on that
:30:05. > :30:08.note. Thank you. Two bits of good news for the Chancellor, it does
:30:08. > :30:13.happen, this morning inflation is down, as we have mentioned, and in
:30:13. > :30:16.the latest redrawing of constituency boundaries his
:30:16. > :30:19.parliamentary seat has been reinstate t. But it has not all
:30:20. > :30:24.gone his way over the last couple of year, in a moment we will talk
:30:24. > :30:34.to the author of a new biography of George Osborne but here he is
:30:34. > :30:37.
:30:37. > :30:45.before the election in 2009, Of our country is facing the
:30:45. > :30:51.largest budget deficit in modern history. We will have no choice but
:30:51. > :30:58.to tackle it decisively if we are to stop interest rates going up and
:30:58. > :31:02.the unemployment that they bring. Yet at the same time, the next
:31:02. > :31:08.Conservative government is determined to leave public services
:31:08. > :31:15.and society stronger than it finds them. Put bluntly, Labour created
:31:15. > :31:22.this mess, and we Conservatives will have to sort it out.
:31:22. > :31:26.The author of a new biography of George Osborne is here now. Picking
:31:26. > :31:30.up on that bit of film, am I right in saying that George Osborne feels
:31:30. > :31:34.that that speech may have cost the Tories the election? A lot of
:31:34. > :31:38.people around him share the same view. Someone I spoke to estimated
:31:38. > :31:42.that perhaps 20 seeds were lost as a result of telegraphing the
:31:42. > :31:46.message of austerity ahead of an election. But George Osborne's view
:31:46. > :31:50.is that had he not warned the electorate of physical pain to come,
:31:50. > :31:55.it would have been impossible to implement austerity in government.
:31:55. > :32:00.It was an amazing revelation, though, to blame yourself in the
:32:00. > :32:04.speech for losing your party 20 seats. His is not amazing if you
:32:04. > :32:07.look at the other half of the calculation, which is that it would
:32:07. > :32:13.have been borderline impossible to govern, had he not sent the message
:32:13. > :32:17.beforehand. The Lib Dems paid a huge price for their admission --
:32:17. > :32:25.tuition fees U-turn because they had not warned the public about the
:32:25. > :32:27.policy. If you Telegraph a message before an election, and the public
:32:27. > :32:31.are sufficiently grown-up, they will tolerate that message in
:32:31. > :32:35.government. They will not accept a policy which is the opposite of
:32:35. > :32:39.something you said in opposition. The EU have obviously spent a lot
:32:40. > :32:46.of time with him and researching his background. What would you say
:32:46. > :32:51.are his core beliefs? I think it boils down to four things. One is
:32:52. > :32:56.fiscal conservatism. The ones we know less about our education
:32:56. > :33:00.reform. He is a fan of what Michael Gove is doing. Interventionism in
:33:00. > :33:05.foreign policy, which he is a big supporter off, and also cultural
:33:05. > :33:09.liberalism. If you look at his voting record on abortion or gay
:33:09. > :33:16.rights, he is as liberal as almost any member of the House of Commons.
:33:16. > :33:20.And looking at it as a person, what is your view of George Osborne?
:33:20. > :33:24.hope your book goes well, but I think it is a bit soon to start
:33:24. > :33:31.setting out exactly what he is about. I am speaking as someone who
:33:31. > :33:36.is not party to all the background. He strikes me as someone who does
:33:36. > :33:42.not have a strong image. He has a modest way of speaking. He is not a
:33:42. > :33:48.great deliverer of Budget speeches. He is shy of the public platform.
:33:48. > :33:51.So aren't you racing ahead a bit soon? He is Chancellor. The fact
:33:51. > :33:54.that he became Chancellor at that it does not erode the fact that he
:33:54. > :33:59.is Chancellor, the second most powerful person in the country. It
:33:59. > :34:03.would be strange, were then not interest in the book. When I
:34:03. > :34:07.embarked on the process 18 months ago, there were upwards of 10
:34:07. > :34:11.journalists in the lobby who were either in the process of planning a
:34:11. > :34:18.book or who had similar projects. hope people do want to know the
:34:18. > :34:22.truth about George Osborne. They do, because he is Chancellor. What of
:34:22. > :34:30.the other things that was seen as a game changer for him was in 2007,
:34:30. > :34:35.before he was Chancellor. This was his speech about inheritance tax.
:34:35. > :34:41.The next Conservative Government will raise the inheritance tax
:34:41. > :34:46.threshold to �1 million. That was strategically brilliant, some of
:34:47. > :34:52.his colleagues said at the time. August and September of 2007, there
:34:52. > :34:57.was a very good chance that Gordon Brown would call a snap election.
:34:57. > :35:00.Had he won it, it was possible that David Cameron would have lost his
:35:00. > :35:05.leadership of the Conservative Party. A confluence of events
:35:05. > :35:09.caused him to withdraw from that election. Of those, the most
:35:09. > :35:14.significant was that inheritance tax announcement. Having said that,
:35:14. > :35:19.I am not a huge fan of the policy. It was not far from what Labour
:35:19. > :35:23.presented it as, a tax giveaway to people who did not desperately need
:35:23. > :35:28.one. What did you think of the decision to cut the top rate of
:35:28. > :35:32.income tax? Politically, does George Osborne now think that was a
:35:32. > :35:39.mistake? Had he not cut the top rate of income tax, he thinks that
:35:40. > :35:44.people would be demanded by now. Not on the left, but people on the
:35:44. > :35:49.right and a large part of the centre would be thinking, are we
:35:49. > :35:53.repelling people who create wealth with that cut? I am a bigger fan of
:35:53. > :35:56.cutting income tax than cutting inheritance tax. We should be
:35:56. > :36:06.lowering taxes on earned income and increasing them on entrenched
:36:06. > :36:12.
:36:12. > :36:16.wealth. But the Budget shambles, as it has been labelled, has caused
:36:16. > :36:21.popularity to go down consistently since that point. A mistake and
:36:21. > :36:31.badly delivered? Yes, it was the worst political event of his career.
:36:31. > :36:34.Have he been shaken by it? He has been shaken. But not stirred.
:36:34. > :36:41.not so discombobulated, given the level of criticism he has come
:36:41. > :36:50.under. The strongest characteristic he has is resilience and self-
:36:50. > :36:55.awareness. He knows he is disliked. You have to be a resilient, when
:36:55. > :36:59.you have such an unpopular image. He Brasher's a lot of that aside
:36:59. > :37:03.easily, maybe too easily. What about ambitions for prime minister?
:37:03. > :37:06.Are I don't think he is desperate for the job. Even when he was in a
:37:06. > :37:10.better position to get the job a couple of years ago, when he was
:37:10. > :37:15.more feted than he is now, we in the media exaggerated his interest
:37:15. > :37:22.in the job. We see Osborne and Cameron has parallels for Brown and
:37:22. > :37:27.Blair, and they are not. He is not as intensely ambitious as Gordon
:37:27. > :37:31.Brown was. So breaking news now. Theresa May, the Home Secretary, is
:37:31. > :37:34.blocking the extradition of Gary McKinnon, the computer hacker, to
:37:34. > :37:40.the United States. We will be bringing you much more on that. In
:37:40. > :37:43.the last few minutes, Theresa May, the Home Secretary, has made that
:37:43. > :37:45.decision, under a lot of political pressure, the block the extradition
:37:45. > :37:50.of Gary McKinnon. Now, what would it be like to go
:37:50. > :37:53.straight from university to being a full-time politician? One member of
:37:53. > :37:58.the Northern Ireland Assembly has recently done that. Sinn Fein's
:37:58. > :38:02.Megan Fearon, 21, is the youngest parliamentarian in the UK. Northern
:38:02. > :38:07.Ireland also has the youngest serving lord mayor, Gavin Grabban
:38:07. > :38:10.some of the DUP, who is leading Belfast City Council at the age of
:38:10. > :38:20.27. We spoke to them and asked what impact they are having on political
:38:20. > :38:23.
:38:23. > :38:26.life in the province. Politics here has had a drink from
:38:26. > :38:31.the fountain of youth. The twentysomethings are not just
:38:31. > :38:35.getting involved, they are taking some top jobs. Just a few months
:38:35. > :38:41.ago, a student called Megan Fearon was sitting her finals here at
:38:41. > :38:46.Queen's University. Since then, she has gone from studying politics to
:38:46. > :38:49.being a fully fledged politician. Now she has swapped lectures for
:38:49. > :38:54.legislation and course work for committees. Not only is she the
:38:54. > :38:58.youngest member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, she is also the
:38:58. > :39:04.youngest parliamentarian in the UK. They is a link between school
:39:04. > :39:09.attendance and deprivation. At the age of 21, Megan Fearon was made
:39:10. > :39:13.MLA in June, just before her graduation. I thought about it long
:39:13. > :39:19.and hard, but if you want to make a difference, you have to lead by
:39:19. > :39:23.example. We definitely need more women and young people in politics.
:39:23. > :39:29.I felt I could not be an advocate for that and not attempt to break
:39:29. > :39:35.the glass ceiling myself when the opportunity arose. Good morning,
:39:35. > :39:39.everyone. Me to Gavin Robinson, the DUP's choice to lead Northern
:39:39. > :39:43.Ireland's biggest council. He is still three years of 30. The lord
:39:43. > :39:48.mayor thinks jobs don't get much better than his present one.
:39:48. > :39:53.try to do your bit to help people. It is a satisfying part of my life
:39:53. > :39:59.where you get to engage with people. Being actively involved in that,
:39:59. > :40:01.opening doors where you can, it is very rewarding. But would more
:40:01. > :40:07.senior people consider casting their vote for someone a lot
:40:07. > :40:13.younger? For a young man in their twenties, he does not have a lot of
:40:13. > :40:18.experience. There need fresh blood. If they have the experience, he
:40:18. > :40:23.could do it. Megan Fearon and Gavin Robinson think their voices are
:40:23. > :40:29.valuable. I don't think my life experience is less valid than
:40:29. > :40:33.anyone else's because it is shorter. Everyone has their lives, and the
:40:33. > :40:38.political body should represent that. We have a young population in
:40:38. > :40:45.an off. That should be put across in what we discuss and the issues
:40:45. > :40:49.we raised. I have worked professionally. I have an education
:40:49. > :40:56.as good as it is worth, but I have my own experience and my own
:40:56. > :41:02.reflections. I may only be 27. But I would like to think that my view
:41:02. > :41:06.is as important as that of someone else with 40 years of experience.
:41:06. > :41:13.The they are passionate about promoting young people's interests
:41:13. > :41:16.in the places of power, and a lifetime of political -- time in
:41:16. > :41:21.the political limelight may lie ahead.
:41:21. > :41:26.Palmer and's youngest MP, Pamela Nash, joins us. And the ever so
:41:26. > :41:30.youthful Joan Bakewell is still here. In the generations understand
:41:31. > :41:35.each other? Death and a cliff. It is interesting following that film
:41:35. > :41:39.to look at how many of our young politicians come from Northern
:41:39. > :41:43.Ireland and Scotland. A why is that? There are good run a ships
:41:43. > :41:47.between the generations in the small communities where these
:41:47. > :41:52.politicians come from. Young people are encouraged to speak their mind.
:41:52. > :41:59.Do you think that is true? In 0 and Ireland, they have been up against
:41:59. > :42:02.the realities of life. I think it has been a forcing ground. You are
:42:02. > :42:07.surrounded by the Troubles. You have had to think about the
:42:07. > :42:12.community from an early age. But nowadays, people say the extended
:42:12. > :42:15.family is not such a big part of family life. People move away, and
:42:15. > :42:20.that compact between older and younger generations does not exist
:42:20. > :42:23.to the same extent. I can see that that is the case, but it is
:42:23. > :42:27.wonderful that many of these MPs are not just young, they are women
:42:27. > :42:31.as well. I think the emergence of young people concerned about
:42:31. > :42:34.politics is really overdue. It is terrific that they are coming
:42:34. > :42:40.forward, because the older generations like me have been
:42:40. > :42:42.saying for a long time that we cared so passionately about nuclear
:42:42. > :42:47.disarmament and it all these ideologies of the time. Where are
:42:47. > :42:51.the youngsters who Philp passionate about politics? It is great to see
:42:51. > :42:55.them arriving. What are the passions for young people now? In
:42:55. > :42:59.those days, the ideological differences were clear and people
:42:59. > :43:02.were brought up in a field of protest and debate. It is the big
:43:03. > :43:06.issues that bring young people into politics. Young people are not
:43:06. > :43:10.always good at voting, but they are good at marching in the street and
:43:10. > :43:15.making their voice heard about the issues that matters to them.
:43:15. > :43:20.Unfortunately, a lot of those campaigns in recent years have been
:43:20. > :43:25.things that directly matter to them, about tuition fees and now the
:43:25. > :43:29.housing situation. Young people feel short-changed. Joan, is there
:43:29. > :43:33.a feeling among some of the older politicians at Westminster that
:43:33. > :43:37.people like Pamela might be wet behind the ears, that, to use
:43:37. > :43:42.Ronald Reagan's phrase, I am not going to exploit my opponent for
:43:42. > :43:47.his youth and ex -- inexperience, or are they more expecting --
:43:47. > :43:51.tolerating? It is different for different generations. Older people
:43:51. > :43:55.are not accepting of the young, they feel threatened by them. They
:43:55. > :44:00.feel that they do not know as much as we do. In some ways, they don't,
:44:00. > :44:05.but they are very much attuned to the generation that matters. It is
:44:05. > :44:09.interesting that the Arab Spring in all those countries across the
:44:09. > :44:13.Middle East is happening in countries where a high popular --
:44:13. > :44:18.high percentage of the population is under 30. It is important that
:44:18. > :44:21.young people do take a lead and understand that well. We do have an
:44:21. > :44:25.ageing population, but we don't want to isolate the Government with
:44:25. > :44:31.that ageing population. We want to see younger people coming along.
:44:31. > :44:34.Shoot some of the older politicians be pensioned off? I have to defend
:44:34. > :44:38.the more experienced politicians, because ever since I was elected
:44:38. > :44:41.two and a half years ago, there has been nothing but a warm welcome.
:44:41. > :44:46.Most of my colleagues feel that we do need younger people in
:44:46. > :44:50.Parliament to ensure that it is truly representative of society.
:44:50. > :44:57.And that means representatives from all age groups. But isn't there a
:44:57. > :45:04.bit of conflict? There is envy of the baby boomers, who have done so
:45:04. > :45:08.well financially. They have made a lot of money on their houses, they
:45:08. > :45:13.have had index-linked pensions, no tuition fees. There is a lot of
:45:13. > :45:16.anger that somehow, your generation has done better? Won the saddest
:45:16. > :45:20.things I hear as a politician is when a young person tells me on the
:45:20. > :45:25.doorstep that they do not vote because politicians do not listen.
:45:25. > :45:28.That is a reason to vote. If you look at austerity measures, they
:45:28. > :45:32.have hurt young people arguably more than any other group in
:45:32. > :45:37.society, and that is because young people are not using their vote
:45:37. > :45:43.enough, so politicians don't listen. Should pensioners lose their
:45:43. > :45:47.universal benefits? I do believe that. That envy is quite difficult
:45:47. > :45:52.for the younger generations to deal with. People say now it is much
:45:52. > :45:57.tougher to get onto the housing ladder. They are right about that.
:45:58. > :46:02.There are so many older people, and older people vote, so any
:46:02. > :46:09.government is likely to consider the interests of older people when
:46:09. > :46:15.it comes to electioneering. The things that young people care about,
:46:15. > :46:25.climate change, education, the cost of housing, they care about those
:46:25. > :46:26.
:46:26. > :46:30.because it is hitting them hard. Is there a fear among old people of
:46:30. > :46:34.the young? People will remember those unfortunate pictures of the
:46:34. > :46:39.rioting that went on in London, you know, for whatever reason, and is
:46:39. > :46:44.that the sort of thing that affects older people in their views of the
:46:44. > :46:49.young? I I wish you wouldn't regard me as representative of all older
:46:49. > :46:52.people! I do think it is important that the old listen to the young. I
:46:52. > :46:55.went to the St Paul's occupy movement a couple of times, just to
:46:55. > :46:59.talk to people and just to meet people, they were very welcoming
:46:59. > :47:03.and they were very pleased to explain to me why they were there
:47:03. > :47:07.and what they hoped. Very often testify naive and in my judgment,
:47:07. > :47:14.they weren't as wise, as I thought I was. But the point was they
:47:14. > :47:19.wanted to talk, and they were concerned. And we mustn't neglect
:47:19. > :47:22.that. Pamela Nash, good luck. While we have been on air the Home
:47:22. > :47:25.Secretary Theresa May has announced her decision on whether the
:47:25. > :47:32.computer Hacker Gary McKinnon should be extradited to the United
:47:32. > :47:35.States. Mr McKinnon who has a sporm of autism is accused of hacking US
:47:35. > :47:41.Government computers. Since I came into office the sole issue on which
:47:41. > :47:45.I have been required to make a decision is whether gark's
:47:45. > :47:50.extradition to the US would breach his human rites, he is accused of
:47:50. > :47:53.serious crime, but there is also no doubt he seriously ill, he has
:47:54. > :47:58.Asperger's Syndrome and suffers from depressive illness. The legal
:47:58. > :48:04.question before me is now whether the extent of that illness is
:48:04. > :48:08.sufficient to preclude extradition. As the House would expect, I have
:48:08. > :48:12.carefully considered the representations made on his behalf.
:48:12. > :48:16.Including from a number ofically in addition, I have obtained my own
:48:16. > :48:20.medical advice from practitioners recommended to me, and I have taken
:48:20. > :48:25.extensive legal advice. After careful consideration, of all of
:48:25. > :48:30.the relevant material, I have concluded that Mr McKinnon's
:48:30. > :48:34.extradition would give rise to such a high risk of him ending his
:48:34. > :48:39.life... That a decision to extradite would be incompatible
:48:39. > :48:47.with his human rights. I have therefore withdrawn the extradition
:48:47. > :48:51.order against Mr McKinnon. It will now be for the Director of Public
:48:51. > :48:54.Prosecutions to decide whether he has a case to answer in a UK court.
:48:54. > :48:58.Theresa May. Let us get more on this with our political
:48:58. > :49:02.correspondent Carole Walker. She made that announcement to cheers in
:49:02. > :49:07.the House, so a popular decision there and clearly with gark's
:49:07. > :49:11.family. She acted on the medical advice that was given to her, it is
:49:11. > :49:15.a significant decision. It S I am sure one that will be greeted with
:49:15. > :49:19.a huge amount of relief by his family, and other campaigners who
:49:19. > :49:26.have argued for a long time that Gary McKinnon was a computer nerd,
:49:26. > :49:29.a geek who was looking for UFOs and was not trying to hack into
:49:29. > :49:34.sensitive material in the United States. The American authorities
:49:34. > :49:37.took a very different case, of course. They said that he had
:49:37. > :49:42.actually done damage to very sensitive files, and they very much
:49:42. > :49:47.wanted to put him on trial there in the United States. They had argued
:49:47. > :49:51.very strongly that because of his history of mental illness, and
:49:51. > :49:55.because of his Asperger's Syndrome, his state of mind, that there was a
:49:55. > :49:59.very strong likelihood that he would commit suicide if he was
:49:59. > :50:05.extradited, and Theresa May announced today that having looked
:50:05. > :50:10.at the medical advice, and also the expert legal opinion, in this case
:50:10. > :50:14.where she has a quasi-judicial role, she is acting in a separate legal
:50:14. > :50:18.capacity, she feels it is right to block the extradition, because she
:50:18. > :50:23.believed there was a high risk he could take his own life, and that
:50:23. > :50:26.is a fundamental breach of human rites. Now, that obviously is a
:50:26. > :50:30.specific case, but Theresa May has also been talking more broadly
:50:30. > :50:37.about the extradition system, about the treaty that was signed between
:50:37. > :50:40.the US and UK. What has she said about that? Several significant
:50:40. > :50:46.changes, the first thing she has introduced something called the
:50:46. > :50:51.forum bar, and what this means is when there is a case which involves
:50:51. > :50:55.a crime which perhaps covers UK soil, and foreign tertri, as in the
:50:55. > :50:59.case we have just been talking about, there will have to be a
:50:59. > :51:03.hearing in a British court, for a British court to decide if there is
:51:03. > :51:09.suitable ground for an extradition hearing to go ahead. So it will
:51:09. > :51:12.mean a British court will in the first instance decide whether that
:51:12. > :51:17.individual should be tried here in the UK. Now, Shetland went on the
:51:17. > :51:22.say she accepted -- she went on to say she accepted the findings of a
:51:22. > :51:27.review she has commissioned, there was no imbalance between Britain
:51:27. > :51:32.and the US, on this. But she also introduced another change, which
:51:32. > :51:37.means that in future where there are appeals, like the one we have
:51:37. > :51:41.been hearing about, where people say extra dit would harm their
:51:41. > :51:46.human rite, that would be decided by the high court not the Home
:51:46. > :51:51.Secretary. Thank you. Joan Bakewell you welcome this? I welcome it. She
:51:51. > :51:54.has done her image a good turn, she will be seen as having made a
:51:54. > :51:57.thoughtful an to some extent generous decision, so I think it
:51:57. > :52:02.will be welcomed. I am interested in the other changes that are
:52:02. > :52:06.coming about, and I think that will go on being debated and subject to
:52:06. > :52:11.scrutiny for some time. That is good too. All right. Well, it is
:52:11. > :52:14.nearly 50 year since the world teetered on the edge of the nuclear
:52:14. > :52:20.abyss. The Cuban Missile Crisis in October 1962 was the high water
:52:20. > :52:23.mark of ten stwhiens the USA and the Soviet Union. The point at
:52:24. > :52:28.which the Cold War almost became a hot war. In a moment we will talk
:52:28. > :52:35.to a historian about Britain's role at the time let us remind ourself
:52:35. > :52:39.of the event. To Guantanamo US base on Cuba, the Americans send strong
:52:39. > :52:43.reinforcement of marines. Meanwhile, the naval blockade against Russian
:52:43. > :52:46.and satellite ships nearing Cuba was put into effect. At the White
:52:46. > :52:54.House, making the announcement to the waiting world, Mr Kennedy said
:52:54. > :52:57.that only a few days before, he was assured that Russia has put no
:52:57. > :53:04.rockets on Cuba. Photographic proof to the contrary was soon in the
:53:04. > :53:10.President's hand. What kind of rock t? The moss kai Mayday parade had
:53:10. > :53:14.featured. So they were pointing at American cities. Powerful stuff,
:53:14. > :53:19.joining me is the historian Peter shen si who has written numerous
:53:19. > :53:25.books about Britain in the Cold War. It seems to me, that the world held
:53:25. > :53:31.its breath for those tense days during the escalation of events.
:53:31. > :53:34.They did. It's the chosest we have come to it happening, thermonuclear
:53:34. > :53:38.exchange, global war, but it was a closer run thing than we realised
:53:38. > :53:42.if the time. If Kennedy had known there were warhead already on Cuba,
:53:42. > :53:47.Russian one, and that the local Russian commander had the final say
:53:47. > :53:51.on whether they were launched on an invading American ary it would have
:53:51. > :53:56.made the calculations different. Ten years ago Russian submariner, I
:53:56. > :54:00.wasn't there, told a conference on Cuba they were stuck on their
:54:00. > :54:04.diesel submarine, with a nuclear torpedo on, the United States navy
:54:04. > :54:10.keeping them down. They can't clean their air, the temperature was
:54:11. > :54:15.rising, they could hardly breathe and the captain liezs it. He was
:54:15. > :54:19.overruled by his number two and the political officer, now if that
:54:19. > :54:25.nuclear torpedo had been launched that would have been it. It is
:54:25. > :54:29.amazing really, that it didn't happen. I mean. It was unbearable.
:54:29. > :54:35.What was it like at the time? thought the world would end. It was
:54:35. > :54:39.as close as close as you can be and not have nuclear war. We would go,
:54:39. > :54:43.we would leave work, in the evening and say, see you tomorrow, if we
:54:43. > :54:48.are still here, and people would go, yes, let's hope, let's hope, but
:54:48. > :54:53.people walked round expecting a flash in the sky, and the end of
:54:53. > :54:57.the world. I mean it was absolutely expected. Widely expected, and
:54:58. > :55:04.there was nothing to do but hold your breath. You could not do
:55:04. > :55:08.anything. You couldn't march. You couldn't protest. I went for a walk
:55:08. > :55:12.in the Black Mountain, we set off on the Sunday, October 27th
:55:12. > :55:22.thinking we might not come back tonight but what a place to go. We
:55:22. > :55:26.found Mr Khrushchev had stood down when we got back. I found a
:55:26. > :55:30.document that looked at war, and they said it could arise if one
:55:30. > :55:33.side or the other behaved in such a way it was intolerable to the other
:55:33. > :55:37.side and they hadn't realised it would be or if they involved a
:55:37. > :55:45.third party, with whom they were associated outside of the Soviet
:55:45. > :55:48.bloc. Then it says Cuba. So British intelligence... How did they know?
:55:48. > :55:54.They were looking at the general circumstances where it might get
:55:54. > :56:00.out of control. The stalemate was you couldn't lift a muscle. One
:56:00. > :56:03.side would think we will try it on, just try and get a bit of advantage,
:56:03. > :56:07.then it would unravel rapidly and British intelligence which is
:56:07. > :56:12.usually very criticised was spot on. They didn't say it was coming in
:56:12. > :56:17.October, because it didn't, but thaw foresaw the events that could
:56:17. > :56:23.produce it. What did they do in order to prepare for that outcome?
:56:23. > :56:28.Was there panic and preparation in Whitehall? There was a lady called
:56:28. > :56:33.Beryl who produced for many year, but she was known as the Queen of
:56:33. > :56:36.the war book. She would come in from south London, auntie Beryl as
:56:36. > :56:43.she was called. She Washington National Symphony Orchestra out the
:56:43. > :56:49.drills for the end of the world, the... What a role to have?
:56:49. > :56:53.every capital there would have been a Mrs Beryl. These are declassified
:56:53. > :57:00.now, these war tpwhie, are extraordinary, for our generation,
:57:00. > :57:04.Joan you go into those and you look over the abyss. Because Because the
:57:04. > :57:08.thought of another World War... sears your mind. You look, I have
:57:08. > :57:12.just come back from a visit to Hiroshima, there was a global with
:57:12. > :57:16.all the existing warheads, nuclear warheads on the planet, and there
:57:16. > :57:22.are thousands of them. And I just looked at that and thought they
:57:22. > :57:26.haven't been to Hiroshima. It just gives you pause, and makes you
:57:26. > :57:31.realise that nuclear disarmament must go on negotiations have to
:57:31. > :57:35.continue, because the world is bristling with it. It is more
:57:35. > :57:41.precarious now because of the proliferation, but the greatest
:57:41. > :57:45.shared Boon of our lifetime is that the Cold War ended the way it did,
:57:45. > :57:50.without general wa, it trumps everything else. A deal was done in
:57:50. > :57:56.the end. They wouldn't invade.... What happened... They wouldn't
:57:56. > :58:00.invade Cuba. And they would, if Mr Khrushchev removed the missiles
:58:00. > :58:04.they would remove the NATO missiles from Turkey, so there was a back
:58:04. > :58:08.channel in Washington. The doeld war ending is miraculous, it is
:58:08. > :58:15.breathtaking for me, the most I could hope for, when I was growing
:58:15. > :58:20.up, was an an American am bas for do to London called it the cheaper
:58:20. > :58:24.form of deadlock. It is nice we don't live under that shadow any
:58:24. > :58:29.more. It is not right to discount it and say we will pocket that bit
:58:29. > :58:34.I took the most extraordinary set of circumstances. A lot of simply
:58:34. > :58:39.good luck, because people were speaking of, we have no alternative
:58:39. > :58:43.to total destruction. OK. I will have to stop you there. The Berlin
:58:43. > :58:48.wall had no idea it was going to happen. Thanks to my guest,
:58:48. > :58:53.particularly to Joan Bakewell for being my guest of the day. The one