:00:43. > :00:48.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Alex Salmond's not
:00:48. > :00:51.for turning... Or is he? He never used to like NATO but this
:00:51. > :00:54.afternoon he will urge his party to embrace the alliance. What's
:00:54. > :00:58.prompted the SNP leader to change his mind? Surely he's not
:00:58. > :01:04.schmoozing up to the electorate ahead of the 2014 referendum? We'll
:01:04. > :01:07.be asking the man himself in just a few minutes time. EU leaders move
:01:07. > :01:17.closer to a deal on banking union, though many major issues are
:01:17. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:26.unresolved. We'll be asking what it means for our very own square mile.
:01:26. > :01:33.The race to the White House takes on a strange and bizarre musical
:01:33. > :01:43.twist. We'll be looking back at the campaign. And stay tuned for
:01:43. > :01:53.
:01:53. > :01:58.Quentin Letts and a whip. W is for With us for the duration is Julia
:01:58. > :02:02.Langdon and James Whale. Welcome back to you both. Let's talk about
:02:02. > :02:06.MPs, their flats and a possible loophole in the expenses system.
:02:06. > :02:14.Who would have thought that, a loophole? Do you ever get that
:02:14. > :02:19.feeling of deja-vu all over again? Let's go to our political
:02:19. > :02:25.correspondent. Give us an update. You are going to be shocked by this,
:02:25. > :02:29.but some MPs have used words I couldn't repeat, about this
:02:29. > :02:33.particular newspaper - the Daily Telegraph. It revealed this
:02:33. > :02:37.particular story this morning. They blame the Telegraph. They say what
:02:37. > :02:42.happened is we had all these revelations, day-in day-out by the
:02:42. > :02:45.Telegraph about their expenses, and the system changed. One in which he
:02:45. > :02:49.could claim as an MP for your mortgage interest payments to one
:02:49. > :02:53.in which you can only claim for rent. The effect of that was if you
:02:53. > :02:56.have bought a flat here in Westminster, somewhere out there in
:02:56. > :02:59.the expense of lands behind it, you would no longer be able to afford
:02:59. > :03:03.to live in it because you couldn't afford the mortgage interest
:03:03. > :03:06.payments so you'd have to rent another one. I got told there is
:03:06. > :03:10.one MP who when he gets up in the morning, opens his flat front door,
:03:10. > :03:15.walks out of the flat he rented while looking at the one he owns,
:03:15. > :03:19.or because of the IPSA rules, they say. Many in the public might feel
:03:19. > :03:23.slightly less sympathetic about a system that allows eight MPs to
:03:23. > :03:27.either rent from or rent to each other. Did they not think at some
:03:27. > :03:32.stage they'd be rumbled? What is bizarre about this visit was always
:03:32. > :03:35.inevitable they would be. All this information is in the public domain.
:03:35. > :03:39.What the Telegraph reveals could have been found by anyone, but only
:03:39. > :03:44.the Telegraph got there in time. You can look at the MPs' register
:03:44. > :03:48.of interest. You can look at the IPSA files. The question is whether
:03:48. > :03:53.we think that there is anything wrong in this situation and what
:03:53. > :03:57.those MPs who owned flats under the old regime should not do. Frankly,
:03:57. > :04:00.even if they sold them and got a little bit of equity and money
:04:00. > :04:06.would arguably they got on the backs of the taxpayer, it still
:04:06. > :04:09.wouldn't pay their Dalian day-out, week in week in expenses of living
:04:09. > :04:14.in Westminster. The public have decided they don't like the idea of
:04:14. > :04:17.MPs being able to run and owned the two houses on the public purse. MPs
:04:17. > :04:24.are arguing the sort of story we are seeing today is just a
:04:24. > :04:30.consequence of the way the rules have changed. Want people just be
:04:30. > :04:35.amazed by this? Yes. Thinking about that, I start working at
:04:35. > :04:39.Westminster 40 years ago when MPs used to rent flats and share with
:04:39. > :04:43.each other in squalid places south of the river. You don't have to
:04:43. > :04:47.live in Westminster. What of the public going to think of that?
:04:47. > :04:54.There are some rather nice places south of the river. The there are
:04:54. > :05:01.now. You brought up the tone of the area! They did. It's a scam that.
:05:01. > :05:05.It just adds to the public repudiate, the culture that makes
:05:05. > :05:08.people operate like that. We want a political system that we've got a
:05:08. > :05:12.thin and we think they've got a moral sense of the proper thing to
:05:12. > :05:17.do. Just when you thought they may be getting over the MPs' expenses,
:05:17. > :05:20.and remember how would dominate the news but all things fade into the
:05:21. > :05:24.background - bang, they're back on the front page of the same paper
:05:24. > :05:29.that did all the revealing the first prize, the Telegraph. I don't
:05:29. > :05:34.understand how they can afford on their salary, that they complain is
:05:34. > :05:39.not enough, how they can afford to have a second home as well. You are
:05:39. > :05:43.quite right, there are lots of lovely, Little, cheap hotels dotted
:05:43. > :05:47.around. They don't have to have second homes, most of them, because
:05:47. > :05:52.every weekend they have to go back to their constituency. It is an
:05:52. > :05:57.necessary. They used to be an MP's widow who had a flat somewhere.
:05:57. > :06:03.There were four or five Labour MPs who have a room in her flat. They
:06:03. > :06:07.all slept together like in a dormitory. Do the News of the World
:06:07. > :06:11.know about that? A everybody knew about it. It was very cheap. It was
:06:11. > :06:18.cheap but there was a price to pay - you have to sleep with one eye
:06:18. > :06:24.open! What about a dormitory? Westminster has loads of room.
:06:24. > :06:30.don't want the dormitory. I don't, but they can stay there. Be is open
:06:30. > :06:34.season on them again. Expect a few fireworks of the SNP conference in
:06:34. > :06:38.Perth this afternoon when the party faithful debate a thorny issue.
:06:38. > :06:44.NATO membership. The Scottish nationalists leader, Alex Salmond,
:06:44. > :06:50.is expected to urge his party to reject its long-held antipathy to
:06:50. > :06:54.the alliance. Of course he wants to do that, but it looks like he wants
:06:54. > :06:58.to do that without fighting the horses. This is Ali the latest in a
:06:58. > :07:03.series of policy U-turns. We will be talking to the SNP leader in a
:07:03. > :07:06.moment. The Battle of Bannockburn was
:07:06. > :07:11.fought when a Scottish army prevented an English army from
:07:11. > :07:15.relieving the garrison of sterling. So, 700 years later, when they get
:07:15. > :07:18.to vote on independence for Scotland, we thought we'd ask the
:07:19. > :07:22.people of sterling now what they make of the question. Economic Lee
:07:22. > :07:27.I think we can do it. Other countries the same size have done
:07:27. > :07:30.it. The gas industry and what have you. I know that will last long,
:07:30. > :07:34.maybe the next 30 years, but they are looking at nuclear stuff as
:07:34. > :07:40.well. We've been part of Great Britain for so long, it would be a
:07:40. > :07:44.massive change. It seems very complicated for something that
:07:44. > :07:47.doesn't really need to be fixed. Nothing has really broken.
:07:48. > :07:52.probably would be better for Scotland to be independent. There's
:07:52. > :07:56.been a lot of ill-feeling as well. People have been saying a lot of
:07:56. > :08:01.things on both sides of the border. Maybe we should break away. I don't
:08:01. > :08:05.know, I haven't made my mind up. I will need to really consider it and
:08:05. > :08:10.go into it in more depth. I've got two used to do it and I will do it
:08:10. > :08:14.within that time. My heart and head is with the union. However, I get
:08:14. > :08:19.sick and fed up of listening and reading about how England are
:08:19. > :08:22.feeding us, how they are keeping us and how we would sink below the
:08:22. > :08:26.depths of despair if we weren't part of the Union. We are getting
:08:26. > :08:31.sick of this. And I listen to a lot of young people now and they are
:08:31. > :08:40.saying the same. It's not going to make any difference. I just don't
:08:40. > :08:44.see it making a difference. I really don't know. What do you
:08:44. > :08:50.think? What? Whether you should have an independent Scotland or
:08:50. > :08:55.stay part of the Union? No. A very good answer, you should become a
:08:55. > :08:59.politician! The SNP leader Alex Salmond joins us now from his
:08:59. > :09:08.conference in the beautiful city of Perth. Welcome to The Daily
:09:08. > :09:13.Politics. I loved your vox pops in sterling. When this country was
:09:13. > :09:16.under threat of extinction from the Soviet's nuclear arsenal, you
:09:16. > :09:23.opposed NATO membership. Now there's no Soviet threat, you want
:09:23. > :09:28.to join it - how does that work? There's a slight correction. I've
:09:28. > :09:33.been in the SNP when we've been pro-NATO in the 1970s I was in the
:09:33. > :09:37.SNP when the policy to the anti- Nato in the 1980s, and I was still
:09:37. > :09:41.in the SNP 10 years ago, although not leader, when we change the
:09:41. > :09:45.policy to be in favour of Partnership for Peace, which has a
:09:45. > :09:49.NATO arranged organisation. The policy has gone into transition
:09:49. > :09:52.over the years, but the one consistent thread in our policy
:09:52. > :09:57.over all these years is our opposition to nuclear weapons in
:09:57. > :10:02.Scotland, in particular to the Trident missile systems. That is
:10:02. > :10:06.the consistent airier and the main string of SNP policy. So you want
:10:06. > :10:11.to be part of an alliance which is nuclear based but you don't want to
:10:11. > :10:15.have nuclear weapons - how does that work? I suppose that is the
:10:15. > :10:21.same as 26 out of the 29 member countries of NATO at the present
:10:21. > :10:24.moment. I'd rather be one of the 26 without possessing nuclear weapons
:10:24. > :10:31.than one of the three who have nuclear powers. But you are happy
:10:31. > :10:35.to live under a nuclear shield of Defence. To be fair to NATO, in its
:10:35. > :10:40.strategic documents it points away from its wish to see a nuclear free
:10:40. > :10:45.world. But I can't push away American nuclear weapons, I can't
:10:45. > :10:48.do that. But I can do two things. I can get Trident out of Scotland
:10:48. > :10:53.with independence. Secondly, we can agree with our friends and
:10:53. > :10:58.neighbours, like Denmark and Norway, that Scotland's strategic position
:10:58. > :11:01.makes it in their interest and our interest to be part of a mutual
:11:01. > :11:06.defence organisation on a non- nuclear basis. You used to
:11:06. > :11:11.denigrate NATO. You always be faced it with the adjective nuclear base.
:11:11. > :11:15.You talk about the nuclear based NATO. You wanted to stand alongside
:11:15. > :11:19.Austria, Finland, Sweden. You said it was an insult to these countries
:11:19. > :11:24.the thing that Scotland couldn't stand alongside them. Now you want
:11:24. > :11:28.to join NATO and it is still nuclear based. It would be an
:11:28. > :11:36.insult to say you couldn't have the Partnership for Peace programme
:11:36. > :11:42.supported by Sweden and Austria. Ireland, it is not any longer a
:11:42. > :11:45.neutral country. But Partnership for Peace is also a NATO arranged
:11:45. > :11:50.or maligned organisation. So we have to look at the practicality of
:11:50. > :11:54.where we are now. That practical argument would be that we can see a
:11:54. > :11:57.rude to the removal of nuclear weapons from Scotland without
:11:57. > :12:02.corrupting the defence Co ordination of our friends and
:12:02. > :12:06.allies in the Nordic countries. Isn't it refreshing to see such a
:12:06. > :12:11.debate come to an annual conference of a political party - just like
:12:11. > :12:16.old times! I couldn't possibly comment. It seems a little bit
:12:16. > :12:21.strange that you want the protection of NATO's nuclear shield
:12:21. > :12:26.but you are going to kick a key part of that shield out of Scotland.
:12:26. > :12:30.I don't think that strange at all. I think the contribution that we in
:12:30. > :12:33.Scotland can make to nuclear disarmament is the removal of
:12:33. > :12:38.Trident missile systems from Scotland and the prevention of a
:12:38. > :12:43.renewal of that Trident system. The UK at the present moment is
:12:43. > :12:47.spending �2.5 billion a year on maintaining Trident and renewing
:12:47. > :12:52.the next system. That is roughly �250 million as a Scottish
:12:52. > :12:56.contribution. I think that is a phenomenal waste of money in the
:12:56. > :13:00.world that it is, with the economy the way it is. I can think of many
:13:00. > :13:04.things that can put better used to these funds, and wasting them on
:13:04. > :13:08.unwanted nuclear weapons. Yes, but you are joining a nuclear based
:13:08. > :13:12.alliance which you have long opposed. You are either opposed to
:13:12. > :13:17.it or you are all over the shop on it. But you have had a long record
:13:17. > :13:21.of being against it. Now you are for it. People will see it as just
:13:21. > :13:27.the latest in a long line of cynical policy changes to make you
:13:27. > :13:31.more palatable to mainstream Scottish opinion. I think the
:13:31. > :13:34.consistent thread of Scottish opinion and SNP opinion and my
:13:34. > :13:38.opinion has been our opposition to Trident missiles and nuclear
:13:38. > :13:42.weapons in Scotland. Incidentally, when the Labour Party had a
:13:42. > :13:46.position, as it did in the 1980s, of being against nuclear weapons,
:13:46. > :13:50.they were still in favour of NATO. I can't remember that particular
:13:50. > :13:55.argument, despite many arguments being thrown at them, that
:13:55. > :13:58.particular argument I don't think was. So we consistent frame of
:13:58. > :14:01.opposition to nuclear weapons in this country is a consistent policy.
:14:01. > :14:05.We have to deal with the reality that we have friends and neighbours
:14:05. > :14:11.who would like to see as co- ordinate our defence as part of the
:14:11. > :14:15.NATO framework, and the reality that 26 out of the 29 member
:14:15. > :14:19.countries do not possess nuclear weapons. Why should and Scotland be
:14:19. > :14:25.one of these 26? When Labour had a policy it lost by a landslide,
:14:25. > :14:29.which brings me back to the point... Which brings me back to the point
:14:29. > :14:34.of how you have changed your policies. I know you are trying to
:14:34. > :14:39.prevent me saying this. Say what ever you want. In both elections,
:14:39. > :14:43.thank you, Andrew, in both elections when Labour had that
:14:43. > :14:48.policy Bay won convincing victories in Scotland. Those were the days
:14:48. > :14:52.when Labour was still a party in Scotland. If they ran a donkey in
:14:52. > :15:00.the constituency base days, what would happen? Let's not go there.
:15:00. > :15:04.Let's look at your party's policies. Not just in NATO. I remember the
:15:04. > :15:08.days when the SNP was an overwhelmingly Republican Party.
:15:08. > :15:12.Now you are cosying up to the Queen. You used to want a Scottish
:15:12. > :15:15.currency then you wanted a euro currency. Now you want the pound.
:15:15. > :15:19.You want independence for your country but your interest rates
:15:19. > :15:23.would be set by the Bank of England. You even admitted to me when we met
:15:23. > :15:33.in Aberdeen on camera that you'd even the date fiscal pact with
:15:33. > :15:40.
:15:40. > :15:49.Was perversely, your memory is playing tricks on you! If --
:15:50. > :15:54.firstly! Your having a referendum on a republic, Mr Salmond. Having a
:15:54. > :15:57.referendum is different but the policy has always been to retain
:15:57. > :16:05.first David King and now the Queen as head of state for an independent
:16:05. > :16:08.Scotland. -- first to the king of. We argued we had a different policy
:16:08. > :16:12.and I am saying after a long history of having a pro-monarchy
:16:13. > :16:18.history, which I have embraced with great enthusiasm certainly, and
:16:18. > :16:24.that is as it should be, because you will remember, as I do, that it
:16:24. > :16:29.was... I know! I was there at the time! I am asking difficult
:16:29. > :16:34.questions of the politicians of the day. Because Scotland and England
:16:34. > :16:41.have 100 years of having the same monarch ambient different countries.
:16:41. > :16:48.-- and being. As things change we think it sterling is the best
:16:48. > :16:55.option and as far as the physical arrangement is concerned, as you
:16:55. > :17:02.know, we contribute now 9.6% of the taxation and we get back 9.3% of
:17:02. > :17:05.the expenditure of which means we have made 2.7 gap in terms of the
:17:05. > :17:10.relative surplus that Scotland has, but there for we can invest more
:17:10. > :17:16.and save and spend more and we could borrow less with a
:17:16. > :17:19.combination of any of these three. There is good room for manoeuvre in
:17:19. > :17:23.the condom per -- in the context for an independent Scotland.
:17:23. > :17:31.certainly have plenty of room for manoeuvre! You seem to have plenty
:17:31. > :17:40.of manoeuvres on policy. I run when you used to complain... -- I
:17:40. > :17:45.remember. You used to wax lyrical about being shackled to sterling
:17:46. > :17:48.with Scotland in Europe and having the euro currency. Now your policy
:17:49. > :17:55.is to tie your Monetary Policy Committee or interest rates and
:17:55. > :18:01.your fiscal policy to the most Euro-sceptic country in the
:18:01. > :18:05.European Union. It sounds bizarre. Well, I think in terms of the
:18:06. > :18:10.support for the euro that is a charter that have been levelled at
:18:10. > :18:15.the Conservative Party... I am talking to you, Mr Salmond! There
:18:15. > :18:18.is nothing unusual about that. The facts have changed substantially
:18:18. > :18:23.and when the facts change, you change your mind and you do what is
:18:23. > :18:33.right for the day, and what is right for the day now is to support
:18:33. > :18:33.
:18:33. > :18:37.the optimal currency area. The point of fiscal freedom is we have
:18:37. > :18:42.�500 per head for every man, a woman and child in Scotland and it
:18:42. > :18:47.seems a substantial amount of freedom. When I have got you face-
:18:47. > :18:54.to-face I will have a go at you on the 2.7 billion! We can have a
:18:55. > :19:00.replay on! At the yes! I hope we will! Now you are cosying up to the
:19:00. > :19:03.Queen and you have ditched your support for the euro and your
:19:03. > :19:08.siding with NATO. You'll have a monetary policy controlled by
:19:08. > :19:13.London. What other policies and principles will you ditch before
:19:13. > :19:17.the referendum in 2014? That sounds like a question you put earlier and
:19:17. > :19:25.I have just pointed out the support... I have been up since
:19:25. > :19:32.6am! To look, you should do me the honour of listening to the answers.
:19:32. > :19:41.I have taken away that aspect for you. Our policy in defence has been
:19:41. > :19:44.out opposition to nuclear weapons. It seems very consistent. And the
:19:44. > :19:47.other thing on economic policy is we will do what is in the best
:19:47. > :19:52.interests of the Scottish people socially and economically, and
:19:52. > :19:57.right now that is overwhelmingly for the people of Scotland to
:19:57. > :20:01.become an independent country. wider most of the opinion polls
:20:01. > :20:09.show that support for independence has fallen sharply this year? Is
:20:09. > :20:16.that your fault? Let's see what the next two years brings us. Last time
:20:16. > :20:20.I was told we were heading for... Last year was told we were heading
:20:20. > :20:27.for electoral defeat and as you will remember, the result was a
:20:27. > :20:31.convincing Dick -- victory for the SNP government. Something vital has
:20:31. > :20:36.happened over the two years of this argument. For the first time this
:20:36. > :20:39.week in Scottish history, we have agreed on a process and also
:20:39. > :20:43.decision by both governments to abide by the result and respect the
:20:43. > :20:46.result in the interest of the people of Scotland and the rest of
:20:46. > :20:50.the United Kingdom. That is a fundamental step forward and sets
:20:50. > :20:54.the framework for a great debate in Scotland over the next two years
:20:54. > :20:59.and I think it would be a very unwise journalist to write of the
:20:59. > :21:03.chances of Scotland deciding on independence. As your box pops in
:21:04. > :21:08.Stirling indicated, there is everything to play for. I am still
:21:08. > :21:15.if -- simply asking you wide support for the union has risen
:21:15. > :21:22.since the start of your campaign. - - asking you why. If people vote
:21:22. > :21:32.for union, will that be the end of your career? Will you head off for
:21:32. > :21:41.simpler Klein's? I think we can rule out the House of Lords! I will
:21:41. > :21:48.listen but I no John Prescott! I will listen to all sorts of Haider
:21:48. > :21:55.the Tagore questions. -- I am no John Prescott. He -- hypothetical
:21:55. > :22:01.questions. You cannot blame me for trying. If you're wanted me to ask
:22:01. > :22:07.you this, which is, what first attracted you to the multi-
:22:07. > :22:17.billionaire is Rupert Murdoch and Donald Trump?! It does you that
:22:17. > :22:19.
:22:19. > :22:29.same question. -- I could ask you. Mr Murdoch has since spoken to me
:22:29. > :22:30.
:22:30. > :22:33.for 20 years! He speaks to you all the time. -- has not spoken to me.
:22:34. > :22:38.We looked at these things in the Leveson Inquiry and I think we came
:22:38. > :22:42.out very well. I supported the idea of a golf course in the north-east
:22:42. > :22:48.of Scotland because I thought it was a grand idea and has still do,
:22:48. > :22:58.but I happen to it not think Mr Trump should try it -- be tried to
:22:58. > :23:01.
:23:01. > :23:06.run Scottish energy policy. -- be trying to. Since you give him tea
:23:06. > :23:12.and biscuits at Downing Street, and that Holyrood, you have never given
:23:12. > :23:22.me tea and biscuits! I'm unwilling to making a pledge - come to my
:23:22. > :23:24.
:23:24. > :23:32.house at my invitation of and I will give you tea and I will
:23:32. > :23:40.present you with the arguments. invited me to the premiere of A
:23:40. > :23:50.brave and I am still waiting for the ride. Another broken promise! -
:23:50. > :23:50.
:23:50. > :23:58.- waiting for the invite. Thank you for joining us in the fair city of
:23:58. > :24:03.Perth. Come back and see us soon. What do you make of that? Will, I
:24:03. > :24:08.think you got him really riled, actually, because he is a slippery
:24:08. > :24:16.character and he looked quite bothered. It is not the issue,
:24:16. > :24:18.though, about NATO that if, in what I think is the unlikely
:24:18. > :24:25.circumstance of an independent Scotland, they want to be in Europe
:24:25. > :24:31.and a need membership of NATO. don't need to be a member of NATO.
:24:31. > :24:35.A Ireland wasn't... I think the big difficulty would be this. If it is
:24:35. > :24:41.a yes vote in 2014, the terms of the divorce will have to be
:24:41. > :24:48.negotiated. The one Mr Salmond was saying that was the consistency was
:24:48. > :24:54.that they want rid of the British nuclear deterrent at fast lane. --
:24:54. > :25:00.at Faslane. Nobody knows where it will go. And the issue, then, will
:25:00. > :25:05.be the divorce could then become a very acrimonious. But it will not
:25:05. > :25:09.happen, will it? It is a complete and utter waste of money. It is a
:25:09. > :25:14.deviation from what the politicians should be concentrating on, which
:25:14. > :25:23.is getting the economy back on track. Yes, but hang on, the
:25:23. > :25:27.Scottish Parliament has won a majority. The system was denied to
:25:27. > :25:32.-- was designed to deny any body a majority. They are only living up
:25:32. > :25:38.to their manifesto. Maybe we should have a referendum on whether we
:25:38. > :25:41.want to keep an alliance on them in the United Kingdom. It is all so
:25:41. > :25:45.wrong because it will lose so much money in the interim and then when
:25:45. > :25:50.we realise we are all stronger together and apart, if that went
:25:50. > :25:54.ahead, then Wales wants independence and what happens when
:25:54. > :25:58.Northern Ireland wants independence, too? Wales does not want
:25:58. > :26:06.independence, and actually, nor does Scotland. Well, we will find
:26:06. > :26:09.out! It is the case for a referendum, isn't it! If it is
:26:10. > :26:15.certainly true and it may be wrong, but the view in Westminster is to
:26:15. > :26:22.get it down to one question of yes or no for independence was giving a
:26:22. > :26:27.way everything else, including votes for 16 and 17-year-olds, and
:26:27. > :26:32.we have another two years to talk about this. I can hardly wait! You
:26:32. > :26:36.can watch the debate on NATO live on BBC Parliament at 3pm this
:26:36. > :26:43.afternoon. It's diplomats in Brussels have
:26:43. > :26:47.moved one step closer to the banking union. They have decided to
:26:47. > :26:52.put the banks under the central bank's supervision. Where this
:26:52. > :26:57.leaves Britain's financial sector is still very unclear and what that
:26:57. > :27:03.ECB relationship will be with the existing European banking
:27:03. > :27:13.authority... Are you following? Are you still with me? This covers all
:27:13. > :27:14.
:27:14. > :27:20.27 members and that is up in the air as well. To accusations have
:27:20. > :27:24.been defended that Britain is on its own. So what matters is, are we
:27:24. > :27:29.getting a good deal for Britain, not what everybody is saying about
:27:29. > :27:33.you. We were in there are mechanisms for the euro and we got
:27:33. > :27:38.out of those. I think that was a very good outcome for Britain. It
:27:38. > :27:41.was tough and difficult but we did it. Last year, always that we don't
:27:41. > :27:46.want to see an increase in the European Budget and we got a real-
:27:46. > :27:50.terms freeze. It was tough, difficult but good for Britain.
:27:50. > :27:53.Here we want that safeguards and protections for the single market
:27:53. > :27:58.to the banking union and you can see the language in there. Again,
:27:58. > :28:04.tough, difficult, it means you are here until 3am but we got the
:28:04. > :28:08.language in. And we are now joined by Iain Watson, who has just come
:28:08. > :28:13.from the press conference where we saw the Prime Minister speaking. It
:28:13. > :28:17.is very complicated so if we can just take it in a couple of stages.
:28:17. > :28:20.They have agreed to go ahead with some kind of banking union but it
:28:20. > :28:24.is not yet clear what the relationship with the banking union
:28:24. > :28:31.for the eurozone will be to all the countries not in the eurozone. Is
:28:31. > :28:35.that right? Yeah. I will take you through it and I will be as quick
:28:35. > :28:38.as I can. As you know, the EU gutta Nobel Peace Prize recently but it
:28:38. > :28:42.don't think it would be awarded individually to France and Germany.
:28:42. > :28:44.To some extent, the tensions between them have dominated the
:28:44. > :28:48.conference rather than Britain banging the table about any
:28:48. > :28:52.particular issues. France wanted to establish quickly because what it
:28:52. > :28:58.means that in effect is that the European Central Bank can directly
:28:58. > :29:02.bailed out struggling banks anywhere across the eurozone. The
:29:03. > :29:09.Germans were far more cautious and they wonder how much they election
:29:09. > :29:12.next year will cost. On that we have a fudge. It will be introduced
:29:12. > :29:22.in 2013 Potts agreed but not a strict timetable. It is likely to
:29:22. > :29:24.
:29:24. > :29:28.be phased in. -- in 2013. It has been agreed. Outside of the
:29:28. > :29:34.eurozone, but now is regulated in a different way. David Cameron said
:29:34. > :29:38.he believed Britain's concerns were big -- were being taken on board
:29:38. > :29:41.and he has had a final communique that he is happy with. In terms of
:29:41. > :29:45.the detail, effectively what he wants his countries outside the
:29:45. > :29:52.eurozone to big to get together and block anything that happens inside
:29:52. > :29:57.it if it has unpredictable consequences or collateral damage
:29:57. > :30:00.suffered by British banks and other financial institutions. And then a
:30:00. > :30:04.really detailed discussion about whether you can have a blocking
:30:04. > :30:07.minority or majority vote Maghreb. But he is confident that by
:30:07. > :30:11.December Britain will get the safeguards it needs. And a
:30:11. > :30:17.principle he is happy for the eurozone to go on and sort out what
:30:17. > :30:23.he sees as their own mess. I'll be amazed if Britain got a clocking
:30:23. > :30:27.metaphor of things only affecting the eurozone. But in the broader
:30:27. > :30:32.picture, the political static coming out of Berlin, Paris and now
:30:32. > :30:36.even Helsinki, you get the feeling that the members of the eurozone,
:30:36. > :30:41.the core members are now reconciled to letting Britain drift away.
:30:41. > :30:51.Maybe not completely but certainly not getting in the wake of what
:30:51. > :30:57.
:30:57. > :31:00.they want to do. Is that the mood I think it is. The Finnish minister
:31:00. > :31:05.yesterday was saying Britain was left on the shore as these ships
:31:05. > :31:08.sailed away. They are very close to the Germans. They haven't said that
:31:08. > :31:12.quite so bluntly but I think that is their position as well. They are
:31:12. > :31:17.getting a bit fed up. Some diplomats who are dining in London
:31:17. > :31:20.this week were talking about where Britain stands in terms of
:31:20. > :31:24.negotiating with the European Union, was counter-productive and didn't
:31:24. > :31:28.have enough influence here. David Cameron tried to counter that. But
:31:28. > :31:31.he was saying on the really important issues for Britain,
:31:31. > :31:35.including completing the single market and boosting jobs across the
:31:35. > :31:39.Continent, Britain was at the centre at the argument rather the
:31:39. > :31:42.in -- rather than the periphery. He's quite happy for the eurozone
:31:42. > :31:46.to integrate more closely together because he thinks it will help them
:31:46. > :31:50.sort out their mess, but he also thinks it will open negotiations
:31:50. > :31:54.for a settlement with the other countries. His long coveted
:31:54. > :31:58.approach to bring powers back from Brussels rather than send them to
:31:58. > :32:04.Brussels will effectively have the door open to that by the
:32:04. > :32:11.negotiations. That is his intention. He is pleased, he did not want to
:32:11. > :32:16.leave the European Union, that was not on the agenda. Europe is a
:32:16. > :32:26.problem for Mr Cameron. I don't see what his strategy is. I don't see
:32:26. > :32:30.what he's doing all trying to do. don't think anyone in Britain,
:32:30. > :32:38.British politics, except a very few people, recognise the extent to
:32:38. > :32:44.which Britain is regarded as being a non player in Europe. That was my
:32:44. > :32:49.reference to what was coming out of France. And Finland. They've all
:32:49. > :32:53.been complaining for about... Since the euro has been in existence,
:32:53. > :33:00.they have been complaining about the difficulties, the charv thrown
:33:00. > :33:03.out by Britain when they are not playing the Eurogamer. To a certain
:33:04. > :33:08.extent we have the advantage of not being in the euro and don't have
:33:08. > :33:12.the financial responsibility, or as much of the financial
:33:12. > :33:16.responsibility, with sorting out the problems of Greece, Portugal
:33:16. > :33:20.and Spain. The bigger issue isn't that. The bigger issue is its
:33:20. > :33:25.people in Europe, the leaders, are beginning to feel that we are
:33:25. > :33:30.getting in the way, there's also a mood in Britain, right, we don't
:33:30. > :33:33.want to be in the way, we'll just get out, there could be a head of
:33:33. > :33:36.steam on both sides of the Channel to do something different, to
:33:36. > :33:42.change the status quo. The that's why he said if he gets elected at
:33:42. > :33:46.the next election he will give us a referendum. He's not said that. He
:33:46. > :33:52.simply talked about fresh consent, which is a dog whistle word for
:33:52. > :33:55.referendum but he's not said it. we were actually forced to think
:33:55. > :34:00.about this, I think we would come down on the side of Europe. We
:34:00. > :34:04.should be more of a play in Europe if we are going to be in it, or we
:34:04. > :34:09.get out altogether. It's like we are sitting on the sidelines just
:34:09. > :34:14.throwing things at them when they annoy us. To answer Andrew's
:34:14. > :34:18.initial question, what his strategy is to counter UKIP. It poses this
:34:18. > :34:24.enormous threat to the Conservative vote. Our the eve of the general
:34:24. > :34:29.election... But we have to decide in or out, don't we? We shall see.
:34:29. > :34:37.The 64 million dollar question in 18 games - at 18 days' time is it
:34:37. > :34:41.Mitt Romney or Barack Obama? There's been another frenetic week
:34:41. > :34:45.on the campaign trail. Time to take time out and have a bowl of chilli.
:34:45. > :34:52.Here is Brian RIM from the Huffington post.
:34:52. > :34:58.We are here at a Washington institution in the home. Two weeks
:34:58. > :35:02.ago political observers said President Obama broughtup to his
:35:02. > :35:07.debate against Romney. Checkout would even liberal NBC had to say
:35:07. > :35:11.afterwards. What was he doing tonight? He went in there disarmed.
:35:11. > :35:15.An hour and a half, I think I can get through this thing and I don't
:35:15. > :35:20.even look at this guy. Romney was staring at Obama, addressing him
:35:20. > :35:24.like the prey. He did it just right. I'm coming out an incumbent, I've
:35:24. > :35:29.got to beat him. I'm going to beat him tonight and they don't care
:35:29. > :35:33.what is DI, the Moderator, thinks he is. I'm going to ignore him.
:35:33. > :35:43.Romney was winning. With Mitt Romney on the comeback trail, the
:35:43. > :35:47.press -- pressure was on Obama this week. The first debates, Sleepy
:35:47. > :35:56.Time or pretty talk Jones. What Governor Rumney said just isn't
:35:56. > :36:04.true. It's alive! There are two people who eat a free here. Bill
:36:04. > :36:08.Cosby and barrack -- Barack Obama. Regardless, for the next two years
:36:08. > :36:12.the lines were around the block. That Obama, the one that buyers
:36:12. > :36:19.people up, was back on Tuesday night. Have you look at your
:36:19. > :36:24.pension? I don't look at my pension, it's not as big as your so it
:36:24. > :36:27.doesn't take as long. Let me give you some advice. It was a combative
:36:27. > :36:31.debate. Mitt Romney delivered a powerful argument that will
:36:31. > :36:36.resonate with millions of people. can get this country on track again.
:36:36. > :36:39.We don't have to settle for gasoline at four box. We don't have
:36:39. > :36:42.to settle for an employment at a chronically high level. We don't
:36:42. > :36:46.have to settle for 47 million people on food stamps. We don't
:36:46. > :36:50.have to settle for 50 % of kids coming out of college not able to
:36:50. > :36:53.get work. We don't have to settle for 23 million people struggling to
:36:53. > :36:58.find a good job. If I become President I will get America
:36:58. > :37:02.working again. This is where Barack Obama first -- enjoyed his first
:37:02. > :37:05.half smoke about four years ago. Whether he gets his second one as
:37:05. > :37:10.president depends on the election, three weeks from now. Both
:37:10. > :37:14.candidates have given themselves decent shots to win, but it depends
:37:14. > :37:24.on odours from states like Ohio. Here his Mitt Romney style and
:37:24. > :37:51.
:37:51. > :37:57.Obviously the very high quality of debate in the presidential election
:37:57. > :38:03.of 2012. When Mitt Romney said, we don't have to settle for $3 a
:38:03. > :38:06.gallon for petrol. I would settle for that! We are joined by a state
:38:06. > :38:13.the Hilliard from Republicans Abroad and Karin Robinson from
:38:13. > :38:18.Democrats Abroad. Is this not still Mr Obama's election to lose? It is,
:38:18. > :38:21.but he has to run on his record. He hasn't been able to put forward a
:38:21. > :38:26.plan on how the next four years will be different from the last
:38:26. > :38:29.four years. I think Mitt Romney, in the last debate and first aid,
:38:29. > :38:33.showed he has command of the economy, that he can drive us
:38:33. > :38:39.forward. The opinion polls show that. People had him winning on the
:38:39. > :38:44.economy, health care, taxes. He's not ahead overall, is he? Its neck
:38:44. > :38:49.and neck. It's within that margin of error. Isn't part of the problem
:38:49. > :38:51.for people who was so enthusiastic about Mr Obama last time round,
:38:52. > :38:56.that they don't really know what he would do with another oar macro
:38:56. > :39:00.years? I think we've made a lot of progress over the past Ball years.
:39:00. > :39:06.There's no doubt when the President came into office, the global
:39:06. > :39:09.economy was in calamity. We had 31 straight months of job growth under
:39:09. > :39:13.the Obama administration. The policies he has put in place a
:39:13. > :39:17.working, they are moving us forward, we've a lot more to do.
:39:17. > :39:21.Unfortunately, rather than moving forward, Mitt Romney's policies
:39:21. > :39:25.would take us backwards. The things he wants to do would restore the
:39:25. > :39:28.Bush era economic policies that got us into this economic situation in
:39:28. > :39:32.the first place. We are bringing unemployment down, it's below 8%
:39:32. > :39:36.for the first time in four years, we've seen consumer confidence
:39:36. > :39:39.increase. But that's what you've done. Your attack on Romney is
:39:39. > :39:44.interesting and I've heard that before, but what I asked you was -
:39:44. > :39:47.what is he going to do in the next four years? There's a plan called
:39:47. > :39:51.the American jobs at that the President put out a year ago that
:39:51. > :39:55.has been blocked. It has a whole set of policies in place including
:39:55. > :39:59.student loan reforms, particular economic incentives, tax cuts for
:39:59. > :40:03.small businesses. He has been trying to get back through for over
:40:03. > :40:08.a year. It's been blocked by Republicans in Congress. So we've
:40:08. > :40:14.been trying to do things administratively where we can. We
:40:14. > :40:18.very much hope that after the election when the President is an
:40:18. > :40:22.overrated again on 20th January, that we will be able to move things
:40:22. > :40:30.forward with a more corporate of Republican Party. Good luck with
:40:30. > :40:34.that! His and Mr Romney's problem is that he is hugely dependent on
:40:34. > :40:42.one part of the electorate - the white vote. He will get almost no
:40:42. > :40:48.black coats and very few Hispanic votes. The last time Mr Bush in
:40:48. > :40:52.2008, John McCain got less than 20 % of the Hispanic Ode and less than
:40:52. > :40:57.10 % of the black wrote macro. He is the white man's candidate.
:40:57. > :41:01.Romney is the candidate for the people. For the people who are
:41:01. > :41:06.suffering due to economic policy. She says the policy or -- the
:41:06. > :41:09.policies are working, they are not working. Our unemployment for 43
:41:09. > :41:15.straight month was over 8%. The President said he was going to
:41:15. > :41:20.bring it down to 6%, its at 7.8 %. He's increased the deficit, he's
:41:20. > :41:23.increased the debt to record levels. Some Mitt Romney, while
:41:23. > :41:27.traditionally the minorities Mike vote for the Democrats, I think you
:41:27. > :41:32.will see a lot of them voting with their pop-up book when they go and
:41:32. > :41:36.fill up their cars and its $5 a gallon. Do you want to bet on the
:41:36. > :41:40.Hispanic vault? I think the majority will vote for the
:41:40. > :41:46.Democrats, but look at the people in the party. You may not be able
:41:46. > :41:50.to admit this but I know and most people know that when I speak to my
:41:50. > :41:54.Democrat friends and activists in the United States, in their hearts
:41:54. > :41:58.they are deeply disappointed by the first for Mark Rutte years of Mr
:41:58. > :42:01.Obama. They had hoped for so much more. That's why there's a lack of
:42:01. > :42:06.enthusiasm. I still think it's his to lose but there's a lack of
:42:06. > :42:12.enthusiasm for him winning. In 2008, and I was one of those early
:42:12. > :42:16.supporters. I was out there in 2007 really early on. In 2000 debate,
:42:16. > :42:19.what we were trying to do was something historic. We were trying
:42:19. > :42:22.to re-elect the first African American President, we were trying
:42:22. > :42:28.to restore economic opportunity after eight years of what had been
:42:28. > :42:33.a devastating Bush administration. It was a unique time in a -- in
:42:33. > :42:37.American history. Obama has become the President, he has disappointed
:42:37. > :42:40.some liberals. He has run to the centre on a lot of issues where
:42:40. > :42:44.people like me, who might have been the early supporters out there,
:42:44. > :42:48.would have liked him to be more progressive. He said, no, I need to
:42:48. > :42:52.be right in the middle where the American people are. But if he was
:42:52. > :42:56.right in the middle, there would be huge enthusiasm for re-electing him.
:42:56. > :43:00.He came through with this super majority. He could have passed
:43:00. > :43:03.anything he wanted to in those first two years and he focused on
:43:03. > :43:07.health care reform, which was costly, took the time out of
:43:07. > :43:13.Congress. Most people in Europe think it's about time America had
:43:13. > :43:20.healthcare reform. Nobody disagrees about that. Mr Rumney says he's
:43:20. > :43:26.going to repeal it. The cost of healthcare is to hide. It would be
:43:26. > :43:29.nice if some people have it. 30 million people don't even have it.
:43:29. > :43:34.Let's do what Mitt Romney did in Massachusetts and let the States do
:43:34. > :43:38.that. Each state is so completely different. He has remained on that
:43:38. > :43:43.in Massachusetts. He wants to implement that as a state decision,
:43:43. > :43:47.not a federal decision. How would it be in Alabama if it was down to
:43:47. > :43:52.the States? People can't afford it. It needs to be something that's
:43:52. > :43:56.right for Alabama. An important point and health care. You said
:43:56. > :44:00.you'd like to see the other states do what Massachusetts has done. If
:44:00. > :44:03.Mitt Romney's policy was enacted, it would not be possible for even
:44:03. > :44:07.Massachusetts to do what Massachusetts has done. It relies
:44:07. > :44:13.on pockets of federal money that Mitt Romney is proposing to take
:44:13. > :44:19.away. How many more days have Riggott, 18? Yes. Who is going to
:44:19. > :44:23.win? Not to do you want to win, who you think is going to win? I think
:44:23. > :44:28.it's too hard to call. I think Obama might, but the Midwest is
:44:28. > :44:38.going to be... Keep your eye on Ohio, where Mitt Romney has only a
:44:38. > :44:43.
:44:43. > :44:48.third of the people,. Obama was going to win. Come back and see us.
:44:48. > :44:50.Whipping. I often mention that word. It's something you think they
:44:50. > :44:54.belong on the racecourses or perhaps in the privacy of your own
:44:55. > :44:58.home. But in Westminster, it's something MPs do all the time and
:44:58. > :45:08.sometimes they are even caught doing it on camera. Here is Quentin
:45:08. > :45:16.
:45:16. > :45:20.W is for working... And W is for whipping. Whips are government
:45:20. > :45:26.ministers employed by the taxpayer to impose party discipline,
:45:26. > :45:30.generally to make life miserable for MPs. The justification for
:45:30. > :45:35.whips is that they help a democratically elected government
:45:35. > :45:37.push through its policies but the madness is that we, the taxpayers,
:45:37. > :45:42.or social and opposition whips. Some of them are on ministerial
:45:42. > :45:49.salaries. It is a good old system! The initial persuasion of MPs is
:45:49. > :45:59.done generally have a glass of whisky... -- over a glass of whisky.
:45:59. > :46:03.Come and sit next to Daddy! Hello, again! Of the whisky didn't work,
:46:03. > :46:07.there of various other sticks and carrots and the whips might employ.
:46:07. > :46:10.It might involve putting an MP on a really boring committee or getting
:46:11. > :46:19.on to the local activists and complaining about them. They hate
:46:19. > :46:27.that! Or possibly a fact-finding trip abroad or the ultimate Lear -
:46:27. > :46:32.a hint that may be a ministerial office might be in the offing. You
:46:32. > :46:38.innocent openings may have heard the expression of "a three-line
:46:38. > :46:41.whip". What does that mean? Every week, the whips issue is secular
:46:41. > :46:49.and it details forthcoming government business. I have got a
:46:49. > :46:55.copy here... The piece of paper has on it a list of debates and the
:46:55. > :47:02.really important ones on which MPs are expected to vote are underlined.
:47:02. > :47:05.Not once, not twice but three times. A three-line whip. The only times
:47:05. > :47:11.the public a disease which is in action is that the announcement of
:47:11. > :47:15.a Commons vote. Those people there, they are the whips, and if you
:47:15. > :47:20.visit the Commons gallery you will see them sitting on the front bench
:47:20. > :47:24.taking notes like of his spies. But otherwise there should we, discreet
:47:24. > :47:28.creatures. Is it really right in this day and age that the public
:47:28. > :47:38.purse is being used to reward Parliament's floggers and
:47:38. > :47:43.
:47:43. > :47:50.thrashers? We are now joined by Labour MP,
:47:50. > :47:54.Nick Brown, under Gordon Brown, so that was an easy gig! And no
:47:54. > :47:57.problems there. What does it take to be a good which? You have to
:47:57. > :48:06.have a decent working relationship with your party and with your
:48:06. > :48:12.colleagues. So no problem, then! Rather a lot happened between Tony
:48:12. > :48:16.Blair's Labour government and Gordon Brown! The most popular
:48:16. > :48:20.thing I have ever said was that for those of you who think there is a
:48:20. > :48:26.black book kept on your Mr Bean has, I promise you, there is no such
:48:26. > :48:30.thing being kept. And I got a huge round of applause for this. And
:48:30. > :48:39.then people said, he will be remembering it or it will be on the
:48:39. > :48:44.computer. There was a black book at one stage? Well, I asked a civil
:48:44. > :48:48.servant with there had been such a thing under the Tory regime. And
:48:48. > :48:57.all their papers were kept in a cage at room out of our reach!
:48:57. > :49:05.caged Room! Did you ever used the Doc Cox? No, no, it was just the
:49:05. > :49:12.gentle art of persuasion. -- did you use the dark hearts? This isn't
:49:12. > :49:17.pick-and-mix. They should just do as they're told? No, but remind
:49:17. > :49:22.them that the manifesto on which they stood, which was Conservative,
:49:22. > :49:27.and they would say, actually, I have different thoughts now and I
:49:27. > :49:30.want to exert my independence. But politics is not pick and mix. It is
:49:30. > :49:38.taking the party line and I think it is important people remember
:49:38. > :49:43.that because otherwise you get anarchy. And what about rebellion?
:49:43. > :49:49.The student fees was a big one and I was not a whit at that time. I
:49:49. > :49:55.was a backbencher. What I thought would happen was that if we won
:49:55. > :49:58.that vote and we were within five, if you remember, Tony Blair would
:49:58. > :50:05.re-table it all because under your draws you are obliged to vote
:50:05. > :50:10.Maghreb. There have been stories in the past that I vaguely remember of
:50:10. > :50:15.physical violence been threatened by whips, of MPs being pushed up
:50:15. > :50:22.against walls... That is a pretty silly thing to do if you think
:50:22. > :50:28.about it! Did that happen? And not under my... Was not accusing you!
:50:28. > :50:32.You are not he will be now. Would you rebel? Well, as I said earlier
:50:32. > :50:38.on, I am not minded to rebel but you have to look at each issue and
:50:39. > :50:44.the interest of your constituents. But what of your constituents
:50:44. > :50:49.actually did not like what the party was doing? Are you more for
:50:49. > :50:53.their constituents I got -- or the party? You have to remember I have
:50:53. > :50:57.some 90,000 electorates and it is the third largest in the country.
:50:57. > :51:03.There will be those on this side as well as the other. So I have to
:51:03. > :51:09.look at all the arguments and consider them. A delegate does as
:51:09. > :51:15.he or she is told whereas an MP as a representative analyses the views.
:51:15. > :51:19.We have all bread the book! You have observed the whips. Tell us a
:51:19. > :51:29.few stories. It is certainly true about people being threatened with
:51:29. > :51:39.violence! There you go! Thank you! A tell us who! Calling their wives,
:51:39. > :51:41.
:51:41. > :51:46.mistresses? I believe Spencer held somebody up against the wall in the
:51:46. > :51:52.lobby! He you have to be careful now. It is the 20th century and
:51:52. > :51:56.people have human rights! It is also true about the Black Book. I
:51:56. > :52:06.know one former whip who certainly kept a black book on people. He was
:52:06. > :52:11.
:52:11. > :52:16.At Number 12 Downing Street, on the skirting board, there is a false
:52:16. > :52:25.door and it slides to one side, and inside there is a small, concealed
:52:25. > :52:30.safe. Legend has it the black book was kept in there! And there was
:52:30. > :52:35.also Maclean's brain, which contains much information! Hold on!
:52:35. > :52:39.You mentioned you have got a constituency outside of London. You
:52:39. > :52:44.are part of the modernising tendency of the Conservative Party.
:52:44. > :52:50.How worried are you about the whole Andrew Mitchell affair and that it
:52:50. > :52:56.is damaging your party? That if she was being carried on for the
:52:56. > :53:01.interest of other parties. -- that issue is being carried on. The
:53:01. > :53:05.officer concerned have accepted his apology and what's more, the top
:53:05. > :53:11.officer of the Metropolitan Police has also accepted it. It is time to
:53:11. > :53:15.move on. Have you told that to your colleagues? Because it is not just
:53:15. > :53:25.Labour. Conservative MPs still speak to me about it and Cabinet
:53:25. > :53:30.MPs as well. Your own side is deeply unhappy. There is also
:53:30. > :53:36.something saying the majority of MPs are supportive of this. If he
:53:36. > :53:42.said what he said to the policeman... What did he say?
:53:42. > :53:45.did he actually say? Why doesn't he tell us? Are you are a former Chief
:53:45. > :53:51.Whip and Andrew Mitchell is doing your job now. A different
:53:51. > :53:55.government, obviously. How difficult would it be for him to
:53:55. > :53:58.maintain party discipline? I think it would be very difficult indeed.
:53:58. > :54:02.The problem with what he is supposed to have done, and I have
:54:02. > :54:06.got no reason to doubt the police record with this, is that he gives
:54:06. > :54:14.the impression that the Conservative leadership is just a
:54:14. > :54:17.bunch of toffs. Why you have no reason to doubt a police record
:54:17. > :54:26.after Hillsborough, the West Midlands crime squad, the Guildford
:54:27. > :54:30.four? Why on earth should the police make something up? I am not
:54:30. > :54:35.saying that but the idea that police records are the tablets of
:54:35. > :54:45.stone... You have read Chris Hutchings Malan, Labour left-wing
:54:45. > :54:47.
:54:47. > :54:51.MP for... In the Times this week. Why would the police could the
:54:51. > :54:56.story to the press because they must have given it to the press?
:54:56. > :55:03.Well, because the numbers are down on police and there are having the
:55:03. > :55:11.Hillsborough inquiry... But they are passing tittle-tattle on to the
:55:11. > :55:15.journalists. In fairness, as Andrew says, he is account of events, they
:55:15. > :55:21.might be willing to weigh up the two. He says the officer has
:55:21. > :55:24.accepted it and we must now move on but it is a bit rich from him.
:55:24. > :55:28.think the critical issue is that an apology has been made and we need
:55:28. > :55:34.to move on. The only thing I can say is that the other side hasn't
:55:34. > :55:41.got anything else to say. In will rumble into next week as a debate
:55:41. > :55:47.in Parliament. There is a debate next week. Yes. It needs to be
:55:47. > :55:55.politics or the people. In the last quarter... I Love and the story,
:55:55. > :56:00.the! Welfare reform is going through. They want to know what he
:56:00. > :56:04.said. To put people out there on their jobs. They want jobs security,
:56:04. > :56:14.food on the table and they want to know what the Government is doing
:56:14. > :56:17.
:56:17. > :56:22.This country is as obsessed with class as it has ever been but now
:56:22. > :56:29.we are being told, let's move on, you have had your fun, let's look
:56:29. > :56:34.at jobs, energy prices. What do you say to that? I think you are right.
:56:34. > :56:42.So let's get over that. Get him to say what he said and then everybody
:56:42. > :56:47.can move on! If you think that the Government thinks people like us,
:56:47. > :56:53.player buts and morons, ought to get on with it, how can you have
:56:54. > :56:59.any confidence in them? But the problem for why this issue has
:56:59. > :57:04.resonated so deeply and for so long is that it plays to the narrative
:57:04. > :57:08.that the Government is run by a bunch of posh boys who are out of
:57:08. > :57:13.touch and looked down their noses at the rest of us. That is the
:57:13. > :57:17.problem, isn't it? There is a group of people out there who want to
:57:17. > :57:23.portray that perception of the party, which is not true. Look at
:57:23. > :57:33.my own background. I am the son of an immigrant carpenter... I am a
:57:33. > :57:33.
:57:33. > :57:37.backbencher. So that his opposition in the Cabinet! The point is, you
:57:37. > :57:43.can have whatever background you have so long as you try to better
:57:43. > :57:48.at your fellow citizens. As David Cameron said... No, you have had
:57:48. > :57:54.your say. We covered these soundbites live. We have a
:57:55. > :57:59.government which is not in control of events. All these issues we
:57:59. > :58:02.would like to be discussed are not being discussed. You, I don't know
:58:02. > :58:12.why you are no longer a whip but you were a whip in the most
:58:12. > :58:14.
:58:14. > :58:20.disruptive, rebellious Parliament we have had for many a long year!
:58:20. > :58:25.Were have a coalition government. But Nick had a majority of 80.
:58:25. > :58:31.have spoken to two of Margaret Thatcher's close it -- closest
:58:31. > :58:35.advisers who said she would have had him out of the door in 24 hours.
:58:35. > :58:39.That is it for today. The One o'clock News is starting over on
:58:39. > :58:44.BBC One and I will be back on BBC One on Sunday with the Sunday
:58:44. > :58:47.Politics. I will be joined by the Home Secretary, Theresa May, and we