:00:43. > :00:46.Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:46. > :00:54.President Obama declares Hurricane Sandy a major disaster in what
:00:54. > :00:57.could be America's costliest natural disaster, ever. We have got
:00:57. > :01:00.a latest. With a backbench rebellion on the
:01:00. > :01:07.cards over the EU's budget, David Cameron has another foe to contend
:01:07. > :01:13.with. Yes, Tony Blair's back and he wants to be president - of Europe.
:01:13. > :01:23.Would it be a good idea? Can small farmers survive higher
:01:23. > :01:25.production costs? We'll talk to Lib Dem President,
:01:25. > :01:28.Tim Farron. And should MPs expect to be served
:01:28. > :01:30.wine of hotel or private members' club standard? Or make do with
:01:30. > :01:34.supermarket plonk? Wine critic, Jilly Goolden, and Labour MP,
:01:34. > :01:38.Austin Mitchell, take the Daily Politics taste test.
:01:38. > :01:40.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is
:01:40. > :01:45.the broadcaster, publisher and former Conservative candidate, Iain
:01:45. > :01:49.Dale. Now, America has been waking up to the damage caused overnight
:01:49. > :01:53.by Hurricane Sandy, one of the biggest storms ever to hit the US.
:01:53. > :01:55.At least 16 people are thought to have died and more than 16 million
:01:55. > :01:59.people are without power across America and Canada, and President
:01:59. > :02:07.Obama has declared a major disaster in New York where fires have broken
:02:07. > :02:10.out and a power sub-station has exploded. They're calling Sandy a
:02:10. > :02:12.'superstorm' and it's predicted it could cause up to $20 billion in
:02:12. > :02:17.damage, making it one of the costliest natural disasters in US
:02:17. > :02:20.history. Campaigning ahead of next week's presidential election has
:02:20. > :02:24.been suspended and there have been reports this morning that the vote
:02:24. > :02:33.could be delayed. Here's what President Barack Obama had to say
:02:33. > :02:40.yesterday. I am not worried at this point
:02:40. > :02:45.about the election, I am worried about the families and worried
:02:45. > :02:51.about first responders, the impact on the economy, transportation. The
:02:51. > :02:56.election will take care of itself next week. Right now, my No 1
:02:56. > :02:59.priority is to make sure we are saving lives, and search and rescue
:02:59. > :03:04.teams will be in place and people will get the food, water and
:03:04. > :03:07.shelter they need in case of emergency. We will respond as
:03:07. > :03:11.quickly as possible to get the economy back on track.
:03:11. > :03:16.Iain Dale, he says the election it will take care of itself, but will
:03:16. > :03:22.it? He is concentrating on people who have been affected, and sadly
:03:22. > :03:26.died. But its power is still down next week, can the voting go ahead?
:03:26. > :03:31.I suspect there will be one or two buildings are they might have to
:03:31. > :03:36.change, but I think this is an interesting opportunity for Barack
:03:36. > :03:41.Obama. He has got everything to gain by having a strong response to
:03:41. > :03:46.this crisis, in contrast to that of George Bush a few years ago.
:03:46. > :03:53.could fall into that trap of George Bush? Mitt Romney cannot win on
:03:53. > :03:59.this, he cannot do anything and be shown to be a man of action, Barack
:03:59. > :04:05.Obama can. During the debates, Mitt Romney has come back into the game.
:04:05. > :04:10.In the polls, there is little to put between them? There is only 10
:04:10. > :04:15.Swing State that matter. Ohio is the main one. I don't think that
:04:15. > :04:19.has been affected by the storms. The reaction from the people of
:04:19. > :04:23.Ohio will be interesting and I think Barack Obama has been getting
:04:23. > :04:28.stronger verb. It does not matter what the rest of the country thinks,
:04:28. > :04:31.it is what these tend Swing State think. The moment they will be
:04:31. > :04:35.focusing on the emergency and the response.
:04:35. > :04:38.Now it's time for our Daily Quiz. The question for today is: The
:04:38. > :04:41.authorities at Westminster want to raise �3 million from commercial
:04:41. > :04:44.activities on the Parliamentary estate. So what new ideas are they
:04:44. > :04:47.considering? Are they thinking of: Turning the speaker's residence
:04:47. > :04:49.into a luxury boutique hotel? Hiring out Big Ben as a Hollywood
:04:49. > :04:51.film set? Trebling the cost of food in the
:04:51. > :05:01.canteens? Offering a romantic dinner for two
:05:01. > :05:04.over the despatch box? David Cameron and Nick Clegg could
:05:04. > :05:07.be serving up the food. At the end of the show, Iain will
:05:07. > :05:11.give us the correct answer. Now yesterday, Tony Blair, said
:05:11. > :05:13.something in Berlin which might either set your heart beating a
:05:13. > :05:18.little faster or cast you into a deep depression, depending on your
:05:18. > :05:21.view. So what's he suggesting? Tony Blair wants voters across Europe to
:05:21. > :05:25.elect a new president of the EU in order to increase its democratic
:05:25. > :05:35.legitimacy. In a speech in Berlin yesterday, Mr Blair warned that
:05:35. > :05:35.
:05:35. > :05:38.people across the EU will become alienated unless reforms are made.
:05:38. > :05:42.He said; "A Europe-wide election for the presidency is the most
:05:42. > :05:45.direct way to involve the public". Three years ago the EU created a
:05:45. > :05:48.new position - president of the European Council, with Tony Blair's
:05:48. > :05:50.name briefly in the frame for the new post. The job spec includes
:05:50. > :05:53.chairing regular meetings of European Heads of State and helping
:05:53. > :05:56.to set the general political direction and priorities of the EU.
:05:56. > :06:02.But Tony Blair didn't get enough support and this man, the former
:06:02. > :06:06.Belgian Prime Minister, Herman van Rompuy, got the plumb job instead.
:06:06. > :06:08.Now Mr Blair says either that job or the post of President of the
:06:08. > :06:15.European Commission, currently held by Spaniard, Jose Manuel Barroso,
:06:15. > :06:18.should be directly elected by voters across the European Union.
:06:18. > :06:22.That's led to plenty of speculation that Tony still fancies a big Euro
:06:22. > :06:25.job. And we've been here before. Let's have a look at the then
:06:25. > :06:28.Shadow Foreign Secretary, William Hague, in the House of Commons in
:06:28. > :06:35.2008. He's imagining the response of the then Prime Minister, Gordon
:06:35. > :06:39.Brown, to the appointment of President Blair.
:06:39. > :06:44.We can all picture the scene after a European Council sometime next
:06:44. > :06:50.year. Picture the face of our poor Prime Minister, as the name of Tony
:06:50. > :06:58.Blair is placed in nomination after one Prime Minister after another.
:06:58. > :07:03.The look of gloom on his face. The nauseating prose oozing from every
:07:03. > :07:09.Government. The rapid revelation of a majority view agreed behind
:07:09. > :07:18.closed doors when he was excluded. Never will he regret a more no
:07:18. > :07:22.longer being in possession of a veto. The famous dropped jaw almost
:07:22. > :07:26.hitting the table as he realises there is no option but to join in
:07:26. > :07:31.and the awful moment when the motorcade of the President of
:07:31. > :07:34.Europe sweeps into Downing Street. The gritted teeth and bitten nails,
:07:34. > :07:40.the Prime Minister emerging from his door with a smile of
:07:40. > :07:49.intolerable anguish. The choking sensation as the words, Mr
:07:49. > :07:58.President of forced out of him. And then, once in the Cabinet Room, the
:07:58. > :08:01.melodrama of when we you hand over to me, all over again. Hilarity in
:08:01. > :08:04.the House of Commons. We're joined now by Jacob Rees-Mogg,
:08:04. > :08:09.he's a Conservative MP who sits on the European Scrutiny Committee,
:08:09. > :08:19.and by Roger Liddle, who speaks for Labour on Europe in the Lords and
:08:19. > :08:21.
:08:21. > :08:24.used to be Europe advisor to Tony Blair. Why is it a good idea?
:08:24. > :08:30.Because we need a Democratic breakthrough in Europe. People
:08:30. > :08:33.complain about the Commission being unaccountable and remote. They
:08:33. > :08:38.complain of Brussels institutions are a long way away. We need some
:08:38. > :08:43.way of making Europe accountable for what it does. Tony is right,
:08:43. > :08:48.the way to do that is have a direct election for the President. Would
:08:48. > :08:55.you support him for the role? not likely to happen before the
:08:55. > :09:00.earliest, 2020. Could you imagine him doing it? I think he would beat
:09:00. > :09:05.brilliant at it, yes. I don't think he Best it is the reason he is
:09:05. > :09:10.proposing it. Because it is the right thing for Europe, given the
:09:10. > :09:14.problem of accountability, given Europe needs to integrate more.
:09:14. > :09:19.Isn't that the problem? If there were presidential elections, if
:09:19. > :09:21.there were rallies in all 27 countries, can you imagine it,
:09:22. > :09:27.setting people's hearts aflutter and thinking you could believe in
:09:27. > :09:32.it? What is the turnout in Parliamentary elections? I think
:09:33. > :09:38.25%. It is because people do not see Europe as a country to which
:09:38. > :09:42.they are loyal, to which they have feelings which make democracy work,
:09:42. > :09:47.to which they have a patriotic urge. They do for elections in the United
:09:47. > :09:51.Kingdom. It is crucially important. You would have a situation where
:09:51. > :09:55.the votes of other Europeans would decide how the United Kingdom was
:09:55. > :09:59.governed. It would give it an appearance of legitimacy, but it
:09:59. > :10:04.wouldn't be legitimate for the British people. They would want to
:10:04. > :10:09.govern themselves. It is a cover, rather than a reality. Until we
:10:09. > :10:13.have a feeling across Europe, we are one people, which is much
:10:14. > :10:19.further off than 2020, having a Democratic system, it won't have
:10:19. > :10:24.any validity. What would you say to a person, even if you could
:10:24. > :10:28.directly elect them, wouldn't give people the feeling they are in a
:10:28. > :10:35.federal set-up? I do believe loyalties will remain for a long
:10:35. > :10:38.time to the nation-state. I am not disputing that. But I do think this
:10:38. > :10:43.proposal for an election of the President would and live in
:10:43. > :10:48.European politics. It is part of a view of politics which is different
:10:48. > :10:54.to the kind of what I would describe as, the old fashioned
:10:54. > :10:58.Westminster model due, that Jacob has. What I want to see is more
:10:58. > :11:04.democracy at all kinds of different levels. European level and local
:11:04. > :11:06.level. I don't think Westminster is the only game in town. The
:11:06. > :11:10.traditional members of Parliament who have spent all their time
:11:10. > :11:18.trying to get there, thing Westminster is the only game in
:11:18. > :11:22.town. Let's go to the French view this work -- perspective. We have a
:11:22. > :11:27.French journalist now, would it excite people in France if there
:11:27. > :11:32.was a sort of a new European President? What is interesting, it
:11:32. > :11:36.we don't talk about it in France. But the topic comes back very
:11:36. > :11:41.regularly in the UK where it seems to be a titillating question. We're
:11:41. > :11:46.talking about more democracy in Europe. Of course, we are all a
:11:46. > :11:50.were we need more democracy. But, if we are talking about an EU
:11:50. > :11:57.President is because we need charisma. We already have a
:11:57. > :12:04.President of the Commission. you saying the present one is not a
:12:04. > :12:12.charismatic? I am very pro-European, but no, he does not have charisma.
:12:12. > :12:16.It is interesting Tony Blair is coming up. If he could, he could
:12:16. > :12:23.apply to the Bank of France, he is a candidate for everything. Do you
:12:23. > :12:28.think he would get support in France? I think, what would an EU
:12:28. > :12:38.President do? He would be a symbol, he would be an Honorary President.
:12:38. > :12:45.What we need is a great historian, perhaps. I would love to have seen
:12:45. > :12:50.the Polish historian doing the job, except he is dead. Perhaps in
:12:50. > :12:58.Britain, George Steiner who is an extraordinary European, educated in
:12:58. > :13:03.France, worked in the US and is a professor in Cambridge. I can think
:13:03. > :13:08.of many great men and women. We need a symbol and charisma, rather
:13:08. > :13:14.than another politician in Brussels. This is the idea to replace all
:13:14. > :13:18.have one of the Rolls elected, who would you vote for, put forward if
:13:18. > :13:23.the role came up? By don't want the role to exist and if it did, I
:13:23. > :13:30.don't want the United Kingdom to be part of it. The hammer-and-sickle
:13:30. > :13:35.has just come up on top of its new flag. And not sure I want much of
:13:35. > :13:40.these European singlets -- symbols. Do you agree, saying it might make
:13:40. > :13:43.Britain's more interested in Europe? It is a preposterous idea.
:13:44. > :13:48.Tony Blair is putting the cart before the horse. There is not
:13:48. > :13:52.political union. The job only has importance if there is political
:13:52. > :13:57.union. Down the road, the eurozone might come together, it would be
:13:57. > :14:02.logical to have fiscal union and and political union. We should have
:14:02. > :14:05.no part of that. But if they want Tony Blair, they can have him.
:14:05. > :14:10.they need to solve the problems now? Of course they need to solve
:14:10. > :14:13.the problems. A lot of decisions are taken in Brussels, trade
:14:13. > :14:16.relations with the rest of the world are done through the EU and
:14:16. > :14:22.not through the member states. Competition policy, the single
:14:23. > :14:27.market. Could I say, this is not just Tony Blair's idea. One of the
:14:27. > :14:31.key supporters of this is the German Christian Democrat Union,
:14:31. > :14:35.Angela Merkel's party. The strongest and most important party
:14:35. > :14:39.in the European Union. Conservatives here have said
:14:39. > :14:46.Britain shouldn't be part of it even if there is a close
:14:46. > :14:48.integration or a two track Europe. They should recreate the post of
:14:49. > :14:54.Holy Roman Emperor and give it to the Queen and everybody would be
:14:54. > :14:59.happy. If it did come about, you get a feeling it would be ex-prime
:14:59. > :15:08.ministers and presidents who would end up applying. We could see
:15:08. > :15:16.Sergio Berlusconi, Jacques Chirac. How much credibility? Police
:15:16. > :15:24.commissioners as failed politicians are applying for the job. Give it
:15:24. > :15:28.to Victor Hugo. It is interesting, we're talking about this in Britain
:15:28. > :15:34.and only in Britain, because I think Britain has the policy about
:15:34. > :15:38.Europe is totally in a mess. then is it being talked about here,
:15:38. > :15:43.bearing in mind you would argue the centre of gravity has moved to a
:15:43. > :15:47.Euro sceptic views. A lot of people would support that. Why is that
:15:47. > :15:51.idea coming from here, even though you mentioned about the Christian
:15:51. > :16:01.Democrat party in Germany, we don't hear a big surge of support for
:16:01. > :16:09.
:16:09. > :16:14.Tony Blair is 58. He clearly thinks he has another big job in him. If
:16:14. > :16:18.there were a President of Europe, even though I do not support his
:16:18. > :16:23.policies, he would be good at it. If you want somebody who is
:16:23. > :16:32.charismatic, why not Tony Blair? Why not Boris Johnson? Key while
:16:32. > :16:37.being cynical. These jobs exist. -- you are being cynical. They are
:16:37. > :16:41.important jobs affecting daily lives. They affect the daily lives
:16:42. > :16:46.of people in Britain. Who would have appointed Herman Van Rompuy
:16:47. > :16:52.over Tony Blair? Could we get somebody a better quality?
:16:52. > :16:59.could not get anybody who is worse. While it do we not just fire one
:16:59. > :17:05.and save the money? There is a case for merging the jobs but they are
:17:05. > :17:10.powerful jobs. The point of the debate is to make them
:17:10. > :17:16.democratically accountable. You are staying with us and coming back at
:17:16. > :17:20.the end of the show. Thanks. We have mentioned one money-spinning
:17:20. > :17:26.scheme dreamt up by the Parliamentary authorities. This is
:17:26. > :17:31.another. To save cash, officials to compile Hansard, the transcription
:17:31. > :17:36.of everything said in a House of Commons and House of Lords, that
:17:36. > :17:42.they will no longer give away hardback copies. It will save �1
:17:42. > :17:52.million a year. Some MPs are unhappy, including Jacob. This is
:17:52. > :17:52.
:17:52. > :18:42.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 50 seconds
:18:42. > :18:49.Quentin Letts to explain. He we are in the Parliamentary
:18:49. > :18:54.archives with all the ancient statutes stacked up. This is animal
:18:55. > :18:59.skin. If these are impressive, what about this little job? The Daily
:18:59. > :19:06.Hansard, thousands of words ensuring we have an accurate,
:19:06. > :19:10.verbatim report of what our legislators say. Pretty good. MPs
:19:10. > :19:16.have the ability to tidy up a little bit of what they say. Some
:19:16. > :19:23.of their hesitations get taken out. John Prescott's words used to be
:19:23. > :19:29.given major surgery by Hansard. It does not capture the atmosphere of
:19:29. > :19:35.the Commons. When people give Russia's laughter, it just says
:19:35. > :19:39."laughter". But these daily publications capture the arguments
:19:39. > :19:45.to reduce these laws. It catches ministers' answers. They cannot get
:19:45. > :19:49.off the hook after this. Hansard employers dozens of reporters and
:19:49. > :19:54.sub-editors with brilliant shorthand skills. You should seek
:19:54. > :20:02.their fingers flying across this tomography keyboards. They turn
:20:02. > :20:11.this round in record time, and it is online. The and people from
:20:11. > :20:15.Hansard are really keeping the side up. Well played, lads. Jacob Rees-
:20:15. > :20:20.Mogg is still with us and is one of 90 MPs who still receive
:20:20. > :20:24.traditional hardback volumes of Hansard. Important to have that
:20:24. > :20:30.accurate transcript of what is said in a House of Commons, but do you
:20:30. > :20:35.have to have it in his very heavy hardback copy? You don't have to,
:20:35. > :20:45.and I will be sorry to see it go. Is it essential to our democracy?
:20:45. > :20:45.
:20:45. > :20:52.Probably not. The Hansard reporters turned every day, into silk purses.
:20:52. > :20:56.They are amazing. It is a record that can be kept permanently rather
:20:56. > :21:01.than a temporary entry on the internet. I will be sorry to lose
:21:01. > :21:06.it. You don't think it will save as much as a million pounds? All the
:21:06. > :21:11.work is done, the Hansard reporters of her. It is put into order daily
:21:11. > :21:16.so that is done. It is updated weekly -- weekly to make any minor
:21:16. > :21:22.corrections. It is just a bit of cloth binding and printing. It is
:21:22. > :21:28.hard to believe each one of those Orleans cost �350. This is
:21:28. > :21:35.expensive to publish? The retail price is �105. As a publisher, I
:21:35. > :21:40.can tell you the cost of producing these, a normal hardback book, �20
:21:40. > :21:45.and the Prince cost is probably a couple of pounds. That is because
:21:45. > :21:52.they are mass-produced. These, several hundred copies, less than a
:21:52. > :21:57.1000. You have a gold leaf on the front. They are fine looking. I
:21:57. > :22:02.have a collection going back to 1945. Where do you put them? They
:22:02. > :22:08.are in a garage in Essex. I'm waiting for the day I own a country
:22:08. > :22:12.home! I got given them by NOP, they used to send them to every MP
:22:12. > :22:18.whether they wanted them or not. He gave them to me because he never
:22:18. > :22:25.looked at them. How often do you pick up your leather-bound Hansard?
:22:25. > :22:31.They are not leather-bound. OK, the hardback poppy -- cocky Qamar how
:22:31. > :22:35.often do pick it up and refer to it? I like looking through and
:22:36. > :22:41.seeing what people had to save. Seeing if there are things that I
:22:41. > :22:46.can repeat. You could do it if it was the paper bound? The difficulty
:22:46. > :22:52.is, you would have to bind them together yourself. On the they are
:22:52. > :23:00.all on the internet now, so it is no problem. It is harder to flick
:23:00. > :23:04.through the internet. By am in favour of books. It is good for
:23:04. > :23:09.looking at something specific when you are not sure of that date. But
:23:09. > :23:14.it is not so good for flicking through a general discussion.
:23:14. > :23:20.won't be running a campaign? but I will make a contribution
:23:20. > :23:24.towards them. If you pick up any random volume and open a random
:23:24. > :23:34.page, there is some interesting stuff in there but not worth �1
:23:34. > :23:36.million a year. In the months since the Government
:23:36. > :23:39.launched a consultation into how gay civil marriage might be
:23:40. > :23:42.introduced into law, there has been deep disquiet on back benches and
:23:42. > :23:45.grassroots in the Conservative Party. At first opponents seemed to
:23:45. > :23:48.tackle the idea on moral grounds but now many are suggesting there
:23:48. > :23:50.is a broader and more dangerous strategy point for the Prime
:23:51. > :23:54.Minister personally. Giles has been looking at whether the gay marriage
:23:54. > :23:59.policy might get jilted at the altar after all.
:23:59. > :24:03.Indeed a year since the civil partnership Act, over 50,000 gay
:24:03. > :24:07.couples have celebrated a public declaration of their commitment.
:24:07. > :24:12.Many of them, for the sake of convenience, or refer to themselves
:24:12. > :24:17.as married and refer to each other as husbands or wives. But they are
:24:17. > :24:25.not. The Government wants to change that and allow gay marriage. It is
:24:25. > :24:29.a change the PM has backed. I don't support gay marriage in spite of
:24:29. > :24:34.being a Conservative. I support gay marriage because I am a
:24:34. > :24:37.Conservative. But there has been significant opposition, which has
:24:37. > :24:41.seen a coalition Government face down by a coalition for marriage,
:24:41. > :24:46.who say it was not in either party's manifestos, has not been
:24:46. > :24:51.asked for, is now widely supported and politically upsets many
:24:51. > :24:55.grassroots Conservatives. They rare thing about this particular
:24:55. > :25:01.political argument is, the argument for gay marriage and the argument
:25:01. > :25:05.against it, is essentially the same. That if the laws and protections
:25:05. > :25:08.provided by a civil partnerships are essentially the same as those
:25:08. > :25:16.provided the marriage, those in favour say, what is the difference,
:25:16. > :25:21.why make a fuss? Those again say, why do you need it? It comes down
:25:21. > :25:25.to the definition of one word. Those against who gathered at this
:25:25. > :25:30.party conference dislike redefining marriage. To them it is between a
:25:30. > :25:34.man and woman. It is fair to say Conservatives on both sides wish it
:25:34. > :25:41.had not been raised in the face of bigger priorities, but those who
:25:41. > :25:46.think dropping it will give third opponents the nasty party label.
:25:46. > :25:51.The and those against say even gay and lesbian couples in polling
:25:51. > :25:54.distrust the Prime Minister's motives. Fewer than half thing Mr
:25:54. > :25:58.Cameron is sincere in his commitment to gay and lesbian
:25:58. > :26:03.rights. They think he is playing politics with marriage. We think he
:26:03. > :26:08.is playing politics with marriage. A lot of people think he will say
:26:08. > :26:12.anything to get a vote. On an issue like gay marriage, I think he stood
:26:12. > :26:16.up and is taking a risk, and I think a lot of people who may not
:26:16. > :26:20.agree with him on the substance of the issue of gay marriage. If he
:26:20. > :26:24.fights for this and keeps saying he believes in it because it is right,
:26:25. > :26:29.it is a quality and encouraging gay people into relationships which
:26:29. > :26:34.rewards stability. I think a lot of people, not necessarily sympathetic
:26:34. > :26:38.to his position will admire David Cameron more at the end of that.
:26:38. > :26:43.declared, because he believed in it he was going to introduce same-sex
:26:43. > :26:47.marriage. And to rub salt into the wound on the day the consultation
:26:47. > :26:52.ended, Mr Cameron said the will of the Government will prevail. Not
:26:52. > :26:57.one response has been opened. the Prime Minister jilt the policy,
:26:57. > :27:07.be forced apart by grassroots disapproval? Can he tell the
:27:07. > :27:08.
:27:08. > :27:13.doubters this is not a marriage of $:/STARTFEED. David Cameron said of
:27:13. > :27:19.marriage it is something I feel passionate about and if it is good
:27:19. > :27:24.enough for straight people like me, it is good enough for anybody.
:27:24. > :27:28.agree. Once we have left the ECHR. But David Cameron is promising
:27:28. > :27:34.guarantees and saying that religious freedom will be protected.
:27:34. > :27:38.Because there doesn't have to be religious marriage He can't deliver
:27:38. > :27:43.that. We have pressure groups and individual MPs who are saying the
:27:43. > :27:47.first vicar or ministers to refuse to marry a gay couple, will be
:27:47. > :27:50.straight to the European courts. Once we leave the European courts,
:27:50. > :27:58.I think it is right if a couple want to be together, the community
:27:58. > :28:05.and their family, they have a right to marriage. Why did you say...
:28:05. > :28:14.while religious freedom is compromised You said gay marriage
:28:14. > :28:19.is for the metropolitan elite. support gay marriage, I was at
:28:20. > :28:26.Iain's civil part sip. Not a gay marriage. I would like to see Iain
:28:26. > :28:30.and John marry if they want to. But there smub, Parliament does not
:28:30. > :28:34.reflect the view of the peoples. I think gay marriage is it. If the
:28:34. > :28:41.public want it, we should deliver it. I want it. But I'm not sure the
:28:41. > :28:47.public do. The polls show they do. If the show that, fine. I will give
:28:47. > :28:53.you a personal experience. I have entertained in my own home almost
:28:53. > :28:57.200 of my activists and there are about five who supported it. The
:28:57. > :29:03.polls may show people support it. You say Conservative grass roots
:29:03. > :29:09.don't. No. I think David Cameron is taking us into a lot of trouble as
:29:09. > :29:14.a party. Why did the Labour Party not do this? Sometimes in politics,
:29:14. > :29:17.politicians have to lead public opinion. You're telling me that?
:29:17. > :29:24.Indeed. That is what David Cameron is doing. I think you miswhrauns
:29:24. > :29:27.the Government want to do. It is not about religion o' is --
:29:27. > :29:34.religious freedom. David Cameron said there would be no on tkwaigs
:29:35. > :29:40.for any -- obligation on any religious organisation to do.
:29:40. > :29:44.cannot deliver that. The first vicar who refuses to marraway gay
:29:44. > :29:51.couple. Churches won't be allowed to do it. Even those who want to do
:29:51. > :29:56.it. Let's move.... Ed Miliband has muddyed the water, because he said
:29:56. > :30:02.he thinks that churches should be allowed to if they want to. That is
:30:02. > :30:06.hen your point about the court of human rights comes in. But the
:30:06. > :30:09.legislation will prohibit churches from carrying out gay marriages.
:30:09. > :30:14.But the point about constituent and Conservative grass roots, what
:30:14. > :30:18.Nadine is saying and the reason some people think David Cameron
:30:18. > :30:23.didn't make as big an issue is because it is divisive for
:30:23. > :30:29.Conservatives. Do you accept that? Nadine might be right in her party,
:30:29. > :30:33.I would like to think that is not reflected across the country. I was
:30:33. > :30:37.the first gay candidate to tell the selection committee I was gay and I
:30:37. > :30:43.got a 66% endorsement. There were people there that were unhappy
:30:43. > :30:48.about having a gay candidate. I think I won them around. Hang on a
:30:48. > :30:52.second. In some areas there is still a lot of work to do on
:30:53. > :30:58.thisish yuerbgs not just with Conservative activists, you could
:30:58. > :31:01.go into constituency Labour Party and have the same issue. This is
:31:01. > :31:06.something where the three party broadly agree. There are some
:31:06. > :31:11.people who disagree for religious reasons. I respect that. What is
:31:11. > :31:19.good for straight people is good for gay people. How diadviceive
:31:19. > :31:23.would bit would there be -- devicive would it be for your party.
:31:24. > :31:28.Some of the people who said that were parents of children who were
:31:28. > :31:34.gay. And who embrace the notion of their children being in a civil
:31:34. > :31:38.partnership, but it is, people do for their religious aspect don't
:31:38. > :31:42.agree. Four million Christians said they would no longer vote
:31:42. > :31:46.Conservative. If you believe everyone who says I will never vote
:31:46. > :31:52.for a political party again because of one issue. Do people say they
:31:52. > :31:57.will because of it It carries the same weight. People vote on a
:31:57. > :32:02.number of issues. If David Cameron leaves gay marriage as his legacy
:32:02. > :32:07.as Prime Minister, that will be... He will have done a great job.
:32:07. > :32:12.will be hard for Conservative core voters to vote. He has made an
:32:12. > :32:17.issue of it and if he doesn't stick to it, he will lose more
:32:17. > :32:21.credibility. That is his choice. If David Cameron continues, maybe he
:32:21. > :32:25.will be seen as something who drivers his point home, but it will
:32:25. > :32:29.be the wrong point and will have lost us votes. You said you were in
:32:29. > :32:33.favour of gay marriage. personally am but I'm not
:32:33. > :32:38.personally in fave of alienating our entire Conservative vote.
:32:38. > :32:44.is a simple thing you can say to people who are against gay marriage,
:32:44. > :32:50.if you have a problem wit, don't marraway homosexual. Do you not
:32:50. > :32:55.believe in freedom. I believe compromising the opinions of one
:32:55. > :33:01.group is not right. It is no compromising any religious views.
:33:01. > :33:06.We know what the consultation says. You have not seen the bill. You
:33:06. > :33:16.don't know what is in it. It is hypeth thetical to say churches
:33:16. > :33:23.
:33:23. > :33:29.If you believe in it, shouldn't you lead your constituency? I hope it
:33:29. > :33:36.is going to be a free vote issue. It is. I think Ed Miliband is going
:33:36. > :33:41.to represent his. I think it should be a free vote. I am going to stop
:33:41. > :33:44.it there. You can kiss and make up after the programme. Ministers have
:33:44. > :33:49.said that 100,000 ash trees have been destroyed to try to prevent
:33:49. > :33:52.the spread of the deadly chalara fraxinea fungus. A ban on the
:33:52. > :33:54.import of ash trees came into force on Monday and an expert tree
:33:54. > :33:57.disease taskforce has been established. But in the Commons
:33:57. > :34:03.yesterday, Labour accused the government of being asleep on the
:34:04. > :34:09.job and failing to act quickly enough.
:34:09. > :34:15.And we are taking the threat posed by Chalara fraxinea, or ash dieback,
:34:15. > :34:21.C Risley. We have imposed a temporary ban on imports and
:34:21. > :34:24.restrictions of moments of ash trees in consultation with industry
:34:24. > :34:31.and pursed risk assessment. The band will be affected before the
:34:31. > :34:35.start of the main UK planting season. Preceding this ban, the
:34:35. > :34:39.Horticultural Traders Association urged members to follow a voluntary
:34:39. > :34:44.moratorium throughout this period, which has been well observed.
:34:44. > :34:48.risk facing the UK from ash dieback is apparent. Experts fear it is the
:34:48. > :34:53.biggest threat to British treasons 25 million trees were killed by
:34:53. > :34:56.Dutch elm disease 30 years ago. It is disappointing the Secretary of
:34:56. > :35:01.State announced a ban in Staffordshire instead of in person
:35:01. > :35:07.to this house. We welcome the ban, but the question is, why did it
:35:07. > :35:11.take so long? Ash dieback was found last February in Buckinghamshire.
:35:11. > :35:16.Why did ministers sit back, cross their fingers and wait until the
:35:16. > :35:20.disease was found in the wild in June? Why did the Horticultural
:35:20. > :35:24.Traders Association act before the Government? Why did they
:35:24. > :35:29.consultation on an import ban on Ashe starts only on 31st August.
:35:29. > :35:33.is the disease was intercepted there has been monitoring, tracing
:35:33. > :35:38.forward movements from plans from infected nurseries and inspecting
:35:38. > :35:41.trees in the The City of infective sides to ascertain whether disease
:35:41. > :35:48.and may be present in the wider environment. It is an enormous task
:35:48. > :35:51.and involves over 1000 sites. It is ongoing. It is as a consequence of
:35:51. > :35:56.that the 100,000 trees that have been destroyed have had to be taken
:35:56. > :36:00.now. This episode is a terrible indictment of the Government, but
:36:00. > :36:04.also of the opposition. De Horticultural Traders Association
:36:04. > :36:09.warned about this disease in 2009, so neither of you houses have
:36:09. > :36:12.worked hard enough and fast enough. Will the Minister reverse the trend
:36:12. > :36:17.of vipers and cuts he is making to the Forestry Commission so we have
:36:17. > :36:21.the resources to tackle this problem properly? She is not
:36:21. > :36:24.correct in what she said. I have already explained at the sequence
:36:24. > :36:32.of events and I have explained we have not in any way reduce the
:36:32. > :36:40.resources available to plant health Susana Mendonca has more on this,
:36:40. > :36:43.let's join her now outside Parliament. As we will hearing,
:36:43. > :36:50.this Chalara fraxinea, or ash dieback has the potential impact of
:36:50. > :36:55.being devastating on our ash tree population in the UK. In Denmark,
:36:55. > :36:59.90% of ash trees have been destroyed. Labour don't think the
:36:59. > :37:03.Government has been going far enough. I'm joined by the shadow
:37:03. > :37:07.environment secretary and the Conservative MP for Hexham. Mary,
:37:07. > :37:12.you were saying you do not think the Government has gone far enough.
:37:12. > :37:16.They have banned the import of these ash trees and are cutting
:37:16. > :37:22.down the effect of ones, is that not enough? We welcome the ban, but
:37:22. > :37:26.why did it take ministers so long to act? This was found in a nursery
:37:26. > :37:29.in Buckinghamshire in February. At the Horticultural Traders
:37:29. > :37:33.Association implemented their own voluntary ban before the Government
:37:33. > :37:36.had started consultation. They waited until it was found in the
:37:36. > :37:40.wild in June and brought the ban in yesterday. It is too little too
:37:40. > :37:44.late and another sign of incompetence we are used to from
:37:44. > :37:48.this Government. What do you make of that, that the Government was
:37:48. > :37:54.sleeping on this and should have acted sooner? She would say that.
:37:54. > :37:59.We visited 1000 sites in the last eight months and cuts down 100,000
:37:59. > :38:02.trees and destroyed them. It is significant. You have to consult
:38:02. > :38:05.with the businesses he will be involved in importing and the
:38:05. > :38:10.Government has done that consultation, and then banned all
:38:10. > :38:13.importations. That cannot happen overnight. There is also the
:38:13. > :38:17.problem of it not just being the importation, it is something that
:38:17. > :38:22.can be airborne. You look at examples in East Anglia and there
:38:22. > :38:27.is evidence it is an airborne transfer from the Continent on
:38:27. > :38:31.ongoing basis. We cannot do anything about that. This is also
:38:31. > :38:36.something that has baffled and obstructed repeated countries over
:38:36. > :38:39.the last 10 years, because it has been going for more than 10 years.
:38:40. > :38:44.There are other countries being affected by this, Denmark and is
:38:44. > :38:50.this something wider than just what the Government can do? Absolutely
:38:50. > :38:54.not. My have asked the minister to publish the scientific evidence to
:38:54. > :39:00.show it is airborne. When ministers and MPs say it is airborne, they
:39:00. > :39:05.are creating cover for themselves as an excuse for inaction. There is
:39:05. > :39:09.evidence. And there is no evidence, I have had spoken to scientists
:39:09. > :39:14.over the weekend. It can be brought in either on birds or on people's
:39:14. > :39:19.jackets. The country was disease free last autumn and scientists
:39:19. > :39:23.were on the alert. And the trees scientists have had their budget
:39:23. > :39:27.cuts from 10 million down to seven. We heard David Heath saying it is
:39:27. > :39:33.not the case, in terms of research there has not been a cut that has
:39:33. > :39:37.led to this. Is this just about politics? David said about the cut
:39:37. > :39:44.to plant health, but he did not respond to my challenge about
:39:44. > :39:48.Forest Research reduced from 12 million down to 7 million. Also
:39:48. > :39:52.seven offices have closed and people have been laid off.
:39:52. > :39:55.Regardless whether the cuts have resulted in this, there will be
:39:55. > :39:59.people in your constituency who will be worried about this and may
:39:59. > :40:05.be cuts to Forestry budgets may have caused this? There is no
:40:05. > :40:09.evidence to this. Tree and plant health budgets have been maintained.
:40:09. > :40:14.More money is being spent than ever before on this issue. In my
:40:14. > :40:18.constituency, I have a number of forests and I met with the Forestry
:40:18. > :40:24.Commission in the summer and they are working on this. Sadly, we have
:40:24. > :40:32.to leave it. If people are worried, there is a new Act created way you
:40:32. > :40:35.can submit any examples if you can find it. -- application.
:40:35. > :40:38.As the cost of food goes up and household budgets get squeezed,
:40:38. > :40:42.spare a thought for Britain's small farmers. They're facing a real
:40:42. > :40:45.struggle to survive this winter. The wet summer devastated fodder
:40:45. > :40:48.crops so they're facing huge bills to buy extra animal feed. And they
:40:48. > :40:51.say they're also under pressure from supermarkets keen to keep
:40:51. > :40:56.their costs down. Sunday Politics North West reporter, Peter Marshall,
:40:56. > :41:06.reports from Cumbria. We've been joined from Plymouth by
:41:06. > :41:06.
:41:06. > :41:11.Mum it is an industry that is in the blood. Hill farming has been
:41:11. > :41:16.through tough times in the past. This is a market in North Yorkshire.
:41:16. > :41:26.Harry Hutchinson is among those looking for livestock. For the last
:41:26. > :41:29.30 years he has farmed the hills. The cost of production is far above
:41:29. > :41:34.what it cost the consumer to buy. We're not getting paid enough for
:41:34. > :41:40.it. Does he believe some would go hungry to have enough money to feed
:41:40. > :41:44.their livestock? Every hill farmer you talk to will put his stock
:41:44. > :41:49.before himself. It has to come first, that is what we do. Prices
:41:49. > :41:53.are holding up this autumn, but there is an expensive winter ahead.
:41:53. > :42:00.The wet summer has devastated productions so farmers will have to
:42:00. > :42:05.buy additional fee. On a Lancashire, Cumbria border, Robert Pennington
:42:05. > :42:13.has 200 sheep to get through the winter. A lot of farmers will go
:42:13. > :42:20.out of business. There was a lot of feet been sold at �60 a bail, how
:42:20. > :42:26.can farmers make a living out of that. The price -- price of grain
:42:26. > :42:30.is going up. It is going to be a very tight year. These may not be
:42:30. > :42:38.the best of times, but most in the industry accept they are not the
:42:38. > :42:44.worst of times. Images from the 2001 foot-and-mouth outbreak are in
:42:44. > :42:48.our memories. And the Royal Agricultural Benevolent Institution
:42:48. > :42:53.gave out nearly �30 million in aid. Amounts paid out to farming
:42:53. > :42:57.families in hardship this year are smaller, but pressure is mounting.
:42:57. > :43:02.We have cases in England and Wales where welfare officers have carried
:43:02. > :43:06.food hampers in their cars so encases of extreme hardship, when
:43:06. > :43:12.families don't have anything on the table, we can provide food and
:43:12. > :43:15.supermarket vouchers as well. changes in the Common Agricultural
:43:15. > :43:19.Policy being negotiated, it is a critical time. Some upland farmers
:43:19. > :43:24.fear there will be changes to subsidy schemes which will make
:43:24. > :43:28.life harder still, for them. It is crucial the payments available to
:43:28. > :43:33.the hill farmers are able to come to those farmers, and they are able
:43:33. > :43:40.to choose what they can do with them. What farmers do is, they use
:43:40. > :43:45.those payments to produce food. Government's commitment to the
:43:45. > :43:50.Cumbrian uplands prosperity Plan, which will bring new facilities to
:43:50. > :43:54.farming communities is welcomed. Despite tough times, there is
:43:55. > :44:01.confidence in the future of the industry.
:44:01. > :44:07.We have been joined from Plymouth by Mary Talbot rose from the small
:44:07. > :44:11.farms Association and Tim Farron. Mary, small farms are being
:44:11. > :44:16.squeezed from all sides by rising costs and supermarkets demanding
:44:16. > :44:22.they cut prices. Can they survive? They can, the great thing about
:44:22. > :44:27.British agriculture is there is huge diversity. The important thing
:44:27. > :44:33.is the West -- in the West Country is most farms are family owned.
:44:33. > :44:37.They have a future as long as one or maybe more family members can
:44:37. > :44:42.find employment off the farm and bring income into the farm. As you
:44:42. > :44:46.report said, prices are being squeezed, profit margins for
:44:46. > :44:50.farmers are constantly squeezed. We have energy costs rising and then
:44:50. > :44:56.we had this horrific weather, not in this country but all over the
:44:56. > :45:02.world. Extremes of climate, so the yields are down all round.
:45:02. > :45:05.Farron, people don't want to pay high prices. Some people will pay
:45:05. > :45:10.for small organic produce to support their local farms, but
:45:10. > :45:16.people are suffering and don't want to pay higher prices. There is no
:45:16. > :45:20.way around it is there? Farmers are at the bottom end of the supply
:45:20. > :45:25.chain. In the middle you have supermarkets do with power. It is
:45:25. > :45:30.an obvious and clear example of a broken market. When you have a few
:45:30. > :45:34.huge retailers, a large number of not so well known but equally
:45:34. > :45:38.powerful processors, and thousands of not very powerful farmers doing
:45:38. > :45:48.the hard work. It is easy for the big four supermarkets to take the
:45:48. > :45:54.
:45:54. > :45:58.profit and give less than cost Do you agree? Yes they have a
:45:58. > :46:02.little cabal or a war going on between them. They watch each other
:46:02. > :46:06.like hawk. Once we were more sustainable. This is one thing the
:46:07. > :46:11.Government should do, put a lot of effort behind farming and try to
:46:11. > :46:17.explain to the public that we have become more self-sufficient and we
:46:17. > :46:22.don't need to imimportant food. When you say sustainable, are you
:46:22. > :46:26.talking about Government subsidising small farmers? That is
:46:26. > :46:29.a big political issue, but they need to negotiate hard on the
:46:29. > :46:34.common agricultural policy. There is a lot of negotiations going on
:46:34. > :46:38.at the moment. There is a lot of uncertainty as to when it will be
:46:39. > :46:45.introduced and what the deal will be. I think it should favour small
:46:45. > :46:49.farmers. But one thing I should say the bureaucracy needs to be cut out.
:46:49. > :46:55.Do you agree with that. How much should government do, would you
:46:55. > :47:00.like to see further subsidies? There is a lot of support. There is,
:47:00. > :47:06.but more? I it it has to be targeted. This is the hind crisis,
:47:06. > :47:09.our ability to feed ours has dropped and we see more farmers go
:47:09. > :47:16.out of business and we import more. It is about make sure you pay
:47:16. > :47:21.farmers for the work they do. In Cumbria our tuerism - Toucheism
:47:21. > :47:29.industry is worth �3 billion a year and the farmers back that and they
:47:29. > :47:33.get paid nothing for that. Is a view that says why should we
:47:33. > :47:38.subsidise an industry that can't support itself? I was brought up on
:47:38. > :47:42.a small farm and my sympathy is with the farmer. When we joined the
:47:42. > :47:46.European community, we made a decision that farming would be
:47:46. > :47:50.looked at as an industry. The French and the Germans made a
:47:50. > :47:54.different decision and they support their small farmers in a way
:47:54. > :48:00.British governments never have. Not just by subsidy. It is too late to
:48:00. > :48:07.turn the clock back. If you're a small dairy farmer producing milk
:48:07. > :48:11.at 62 pence a litre, you can't compete with huge farms that can do
:48:11. > :48:16.it. Aren't economies of scale something we have to face and admit
:48:16. > :48:21.that food produced on a big scale... That is why they have gone out of
:48:21. > :48:25.business. Because they can't compete. Don't farmers have to be
:48:25. > :48:28.realistic. We are talking about economies of scale, competition,
:48:28. > :48:33.you can't compete with price, so perhaps more farmers should just
:48:33. > :48:38.pack up and go and do something else. A lot of them have packed up
:48:38. > :48:44.and done something else. The other thing is farmers need to realise
:48:44. > :48:48.they have transferable skills. And many farms that I know don't
:48:48. > :48:51.survive purelyen what they produce or the live stock they produce.
:48:51. > :48:57.They have to diversify within that business, or they send a family
:48:58. > :49:02.member out to bring in income from outside. I went on holiday in Italy,
:49:02. > :49:07.they get huge subsidies on the farms to re-create holiday homes,
:49:07. > :49:11.big subs Deux would you like to see that sort of subsidy, up to 80%
:49:11. > :49:16.they were telling me they were getting to diversify. You look at
:49:16. > :49:21.what happens, since foot-and-mouth, there have been diversification in
:49:21. > :49:27.areas that can do it. Some farms are so out of way that it is not
:49:27. > :49:31.possible. In the end, on a positive note, the world population will
:49:31. > :49:35.increase, because of the growing middle grass in the develople world,
:49:35. > :49:39.the demand for food will double. It is a good time to be a farmer. I
:49:39. > :49:44.want the UK to be at the table, rather than dropping behind and
:49:44. > :49:48.having to import. Thank you for joining us. Now apparent think
:49:48. > :49:54.palace of Westminster is in dire need of repairs and over the summer
:49:54. > :49:58.rumours were rife that MPs might have to move out for a radical
:49:58. > :50:07.overhaul of the building. James Landale has lerpbdz this won't
:50:07. > :50:12.happen, because it would cost too much. James, how likely this a
:50:12. > :50:16.temporary evacuation? It is still a possibility. At the meeting of the
:50:16. > :50:20.body that runs Parliament, House of Commons commission, there was an
:50:20. > :50:23.attempt by a senior member of the committee to kill off the idea on
:50:23. > :50:28.the grounds it would do Parliament's reputation too much
:50:28. > :50:34.damage to spend billions and I mean billions, De Kamping the whole of
:50:34. > :50:38.Parliament while the whole place is renovated, but that idea was
:50:38. > :50:42.resisted. The idea is still on the table. But what the MPs think is
:50:42. > :50:46.before they consider doing that, they have to have proper business
:50:47. > :50:53.plans so they know what the costs are and can make a business case
:50:53. > :50:57.about value for money to voters, who may think it is not a good idea.
:50:57. > :51:02.But they post pond any final decision for at least a year when
:51:02. > :51:07.they do more work on what is possible and how much would it cost.
:51:07. > :51:13.But they say there is a real problem, the place is full of
:51:13. > :51:17.asbestos, it is a fire risk, it is 150 years old and it has not been
:51:17. > :51:25.touched. Now, I don't know if you have had a chance to speak to MPs,
:51:25. > :51:30.or any get any feel of support, it would be very disruptive to to move
:51:30. > :51:35.everyone? Well MPs would be able to stay at their new office block. One
:51:35. > :51:41.idea doing the roundss and this is a possibility, you swap, you kick
:51:41. > :51:45.the Lords out of their ends, the MPs sit in the House of Lords and
:51:45. > :51:52.you swap and do vice ver Alex Salmond all you are doing is moving
:51:52. > :51:57.out one -- and you do vice versa. All yo doing is moving one out. One
:51:57. > :52:01.option somebody said was the idea of filling a space that is next to
:52:01. > :52:06.portcullis house, loads of different places where they could
:52:06. > :52:12.do is. But they haven't made a decision yet. Well it doesn't sound
:52:12. > :52:18.as bad ace first thought. Alcohol and politics, they complement each
:52:18. > :52:22.other like strawberries and cream. That is why it is important to the
:52:22. > :52:27.House of Commons authorities to dish out a new contract to provide
:52:27. > :52:31.wine in the watering holes that the supply should be of hotel or
:52:31. > :52:36.private club standard. Can members tell the difference? Are they that
:52:36. > :52:44.discerning? In a moment we will find out. Before we whet your taste
:52:44. > :52:49.buds, a note of caution, Jim Hacker. Good evening Constable. Can I see
:52:49. > :52:54.your licence? Yes certain Lu. you -- aren't you Mr Jim Hacker?
:52:54. > :53:01.Yes. What seems to be the trouble. Any reason you were drive sog
:53:01. > :53:09.slowly? I didn't want the curb to - - kerb to hit. I didn't want to hit
:53:09. > :53:19.the kerb. I have a silver badge somewhere. I see. Perhaps constable
:53:19. > :53:19.
:53:19. > :53:24.Evans will drive. I will drive. you're in a proper state to drive.
:53:24. > :53:32.Don't drink, well not while my husband's driving. And now we have
:53:32. > :53:36.been joined by the Labour MP Austin Mitchell and the wine critic, Jill
:53:36. > :53:42.Ji Golden. So how good are you at deciding what is quality and what
:53:42. > :53:47.is less quality wine. I have drinks here. I will give you Jacob Rees
:53:47. > :53:50.Mogg the white one. You can take these two here and I'm going to
:53:50. > :53:55.give you Austin Mitchell, not that I actually talk to you about
:53:55. > :54:01.whether you prefer white or red, you're going to have the red.
:54:01. > :54:07.is a shame, I like white. If we had more time I would swap. But it is
:54:07. > :54:17.pleasing everyone. Jilly, we start with white and I'm going to keep
:54:17. > :54:18.
:54:18. > :54:23.the sparkling. I will sacrifice. First, Jacob Rees Mogg, try No 3.
:54:23. > :54:28.And would you as well Jilly. This has been worked out with great
:54:28. > :54:38.precision. Let's see if Jay xob and Jilly can tell the difference
:54:38. > :54:42.
:54:42. > :54:52.between. -- Jacob. That is what wine snobs do. No 4. You can try
:54:52. > :54:53.
:54:53. > :54:58.your other one. Have you swallowed No 3? Yes. Go on then. All right.
:54:58. > :55:05.Jacob Rees Mogg, which do you think is the posh plonk and which is the
:55:05. > :55:10.less posh? I have no idea. First... I don't understand why they think
:55:10. > :55:16.you can't buy decent wine on the high street. It is a good question,
:55:16. > :55:21.you can buy good wine on the high street. I have to challenge you for
:55:21. > :55:27.saying posh plonk and none posh. Supermarkets have brilliant wine
:55:27. > :55:33.and lot of it is posh. Most of us drink it. They matching what you
:55:33. > :55:39.can get in pricing with this. not get from it the supermarket? It
:55:39. > :55:49.would be cheaper. Which did you like more? I liked three more than
:55:49. > :55:53.
:55:53. > :56:01.four. Three of course is the �1995 bottle, that is a more -- �19.95
:56:01. > :56:06.bottle. That is more up market than No 4. Are both obscure Italian
:56:06. > :56:11.grape varieties. I think the peck Ricoh from Marks and Spencer is
:56:11. > :56:18.gorgeous and ten pounds cheaper. I like the other one, but it is a
:56:18. > :56:23.more quirky wine. Let's strie Austin Mitchell on the road. --
:56:23. > :56:30.let's try Austin Mitchell on the red. I think the lore classes will
:56:30. > :56:37.be worse than the upper classes in this. How does that taste? It is
:56:37. > :56:42.all right. Try number six. Although he has said now he prefers the
:56:42. > :56:48.white. Do the red. That is number six. Which one do you prefer?
:56:48. > :56:54.prefer number six. Well Jilly, yet again. Discerning tastes. Well yes.
:56:54. > :56:59.A man of the people, Austin. I only drink New Zealand wine from
:57:00. > :57:05.supermarkets, because it is cheaper and better. Tell him which is which.
:57:05. > :57:15.You have preferred the wine merchant wine. The expensive one.
:57:15. > :57:15.
:57:15. > :57:22.Yes. It's �20 I wouldn't buy it. How much is the other one?
:57:22. > :57:26.number five is �10. And that is from Marks and Spencer. Is it �10
:57:26. > :57:34.better? If I had my troubles I would get plenty of that. Now I get
:57:34. > :57:43.a chance to try them. I haven't been given which is which.
:57:43. > :57:48.House of Commons had magnificent cellars. And then sold. Bob Maxwell
:57:48. > :57:52.sold our wine. Sold it to himself didn't he Of course he did. Or gave
:57:52. > :57:57.it to his friends. That is extraordinary, that is a clean
:57:57. > :58:03.sweep for the whine merchants. But these are both English sparkling
:58:03. > :58:10.wines which I am keen on. Marks and Spencer provided the others.
:58:10. > :58:18.the Marks and Spencer, the English one is glorious. This one which is
:58:18. > :58:24.from a neighbouring vine yard is �29. You all vote for the high
:58:24. > :58:28.street. The high street wine for house of commons. People are
:58:28. > :58:34.discerning about quality. Get the sewer market. We still have to pay.
:58:34. > :58:38.It is not as if they're free. answer to our quiz and the question
:58:38. > :58:43.was what is Parliament thinking doing about doing to save money. We
:58:43. > :58:48.will have to give you answer tomorrow. Sorry thank you to all of
:58:48. > :58:51.you. All our guest and the wine in the studio and for being our guest