:00:44. > :00:48.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. After the Prime
:00:48. > :00:52.Minister's uncomfortable moment on the This Morning sofa, that will
:00:52. > :00:57.teach him, is he right to warn of a witch-hunt or is this the start of
:00:57. > :01:02.a backlash against claims of abuse? The former Tory grandee who was
:01:02. > :01:07.named was linked with the abuse at this children's home in north Wales,
:01:07. > :01:12.he publicly denies the allegations. We will have the latest. And a new
:01:12. > :01:15.archbishop, a former oil executive who went to Eton, of course, but
:01:15. > :01:20.where does Justin Welby stand and gay marriage, women bishops and
:01:20. > :01:25.those ungodly bankers? We will look at the politics of the posh primate
:01:25. > :01:29.in Lambeth. Cut the backlog of cases at the Border Agency mean an
:01:29. > :01:32.amnesty for some illegal immigrants? We will talk to the
:01:32. > :01:36.chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, he says it might. And we
:01:36. > :01:46.report from Corby, scene of the latest by-election following the
:01:46. > :01:48.
:01:48. > :01:52.So a veritable pot-pourri over the next 60 minutes, whatever that
:01:52. > :01:59.means, all coming up in public service broadcasting at its finest!
:01:59. > :02:04.With us for the duration, George Parker of the Financial Times and
:02:04. > :02:09.Carla Buzasi, editor-in-chief of the Huffington Post, a website, the
:02:09. > :02:13.Huffington Post! The Financial Times is becoming a website. Let
:02:13. > :02:16.start with the latest skirmish in the phoney war over press
:02:16. > :02:21.regulation, the publication of the Leveson report is expected by the
:02:22. > :02:26.end of the month. This morning over 40 Conservative MPs and peers wrote
:02:26. > :02:29.to the Guardian of all papers to express their support for some sort
:02:30. > :02:33.of independent regulation of the press. Now, it is not clear exactly
:02:33. > :02:38.what they favour, but they are explicit that self-regulation as
:02:38. > :02:43.exists now is no longer an option. And that is a position which
:02:43. > :02:47.contrasts with many other Conservatives in their party. This
:02:47. > :02:50.report is going to split the Tories, isn't it? Yeah, I think it is, and
:02:50. > :02:54.we are seeing the first manifestation of that with his
:02:54. > :02:57.letter to the Guardian, because the signs are that David Cameron is
:02:57. > :03:01.torn on this, he might favour a slightly stronger regulation, but
:03:01. > :03:04.the press is breathing down his neck, the Daily Mail group, saying
:03:05. > :03:08.that any sort of statutory underpinning of this independent
:03:08. > :03:11.regulatory system amounts to the licensing of journalists. My
:03:11. > :03:17.newspaper is among those which thinks that is a slippery slope.
:03:17. > :03:21.The Financial Times is against... I got told off by a lawyer for
:03:21. > :03:26.calling it statutory regulation, but any kind of state underpinning
:03:26. > :03:30.of the regulation. You can see why this debate has arisen, because if
:03:30. > :03:34.you have an independent regulator and some people they do not want to
:03:34. > :03:37.abide by its rulings, particularly in the case of the Express group,
:03:38. > :03:42.do you need to have some sort of state backing to ensure that people
:03:43. > :03:47.signed up to the new code? And yet Labour has committed itself to
:03:47. > :03:50.Leveson's recommendations before they even know what they are. But
:03:51. > :03:55.if Labour is in favour, I expect a lot of Lib Dems will want to go
:03:55. > :03:59.down that road, too. That puts the Conservatives more in the spotlight.
:03:59. > :04:03.I think they are in the spotlight, but Cameron has got himself into
:04:04. > :04:07.this. I do not think he ever realised how long it would take,
:04:07. > :04:11.how foolish certain senior members would end up looking through it,
:04:12. > :04:15.and at the end of it we are effectively still in the same mess
:04:15. > :04:18.that we were when we started. Nothing clear is coming out of it.
:04:18. > :04:23.Hopefully when you finally publishers, he will have something
:04:23. > :04:27.to recommend, but I do not think it is clear how it is going to go.
:04:27. > :04:30.Cameron is between a rock and a hard place, isn't he? I get the
:04:30. > :04:33.impression listening to him that he would rather avoid statutory
:04:33. > :04:37.regulation is the can, and he has not got any friends in the Tory
:04:37. > :04:43.press, but he knows that the press does not like it, the Guardian does
:04:43. > :04:50.not like it, the Financial Times, two left-of-centre paper will stop
:04:50. > :04:55.we do not like it! It is not going to happen if the Huffington Post UK
:04:55. > :04:59.does not like it! But the public opinion does not like the press at
:04:59. > :05:03.the moment, they did not like what they heard that Leveson, and he
:05:03. > :05:06.will be under pressure from Labour, the Lib Dems, public opinion in
:05:06. > :05:11.general, Hugh Grant and other famous folk to do something about
:05:11. > :05:14.it. I think anything which smacks of the press being in the last-
:05:14. > :05:17.chance saloon again, giving them one last chance, will not wash with
:05:17. > :05:21.the public. The public wants something that guarantees them
:05:21. > :05:25.redress. We have drunk at the last- chance saloon and directed other
:05:25. > :05:28.way out! I think that is the problem. We saw an interesting
:05:28. > :05:31.debate in the Commons this week when Nick Clegg said it had to
:05:31. > :05:35.progress with cross-party support, because the Labour Party are in
:05:35. > :05:39.favour of some kind of statutory basis for this, the Liberal
:05:39. > :05:44.Democrats are, quite a few members of the Conservative Party. That is
:05:44. > :05:48.a majority. What an online news and opinion provider like the
:05:48. > :05:53.Huffington Post, would that be covered by Leveson? Oh I appeared
:05:53. > :05:58.in front of Leveson, and it was probably about... Did you know what
:05:59. > :06:04.it was? We are a member of the PCC, we are the only 100% digital media
:06:04. > :06:10.organisation... New volunteer. did, and it was important to us,
:06:10. > :06:14.because I and my team believe that the code of practice is sensible,
:06:14. > :06:17.but also... You know, we want to be seen as trustworthy, and this was a
:06:17. > :06:22.statement to that effect. I think he will see digital publications,
:06:23. > :06:28.not all of them, the want to be seen alongside a... Part of the
:06:28. > :06:32.mainstream. Absolutely. My sources say by the end of November. Yes,
:06:32. > :06:36.the same thing, by the end of November. Then there will be a big
:06:36. > :06:39.row, then there would be the ordnance datum -- the Autumn
:06:39. > :06:43.Statement, then it will die over Christmas, then it will come back.
:06:43. > :06:49.I think the political story will run and run.
:06:49. > :06:53.A Conservative peer, Lord McAlpine, was a major fundraiser for Margaret
:06:53. > :07:01.Thatcher in the 1980s. Indeed, he regarded himself as her bag man.
:07:01. > :07:04.His memoirs are called Once a Jolly bagman. He has vehemently denied
:07:04. > :07:09.the abuse of children at a care home in north Wales in the 1970s.
:07:09. > :07:16.His name had been bandied around, along with many other
:07:16. > :07:20.unsubstantiated allegations, on what we call the into Web. Our
:07:20. > :07:25.political correspondent Carole Walker can tell us more. This came
:07:25. > :07:29.out after the breakfast TV shows, what does it tell us? Well, an
:07:29. > :07:34.interesting and bold decision by Lord McAlpine to act to try to
:07:34. > :07:38.clear his name after days are speculation which he himself
:07:38. > :07:42.describes as a media frenzy. Now, this goes back to last Friday, when
:07:42. > :07:47.the Newsnight programme ran allegations from a victim of child
:07:47. > :07:54.abuse, Steve Messham, who says that he was abused in these care homes
:07:54. > :07:59.in Wrexham by a senior Conservative dating back to the Conservative era.
:07:59. > :08:03.Since then, there has been a huge amount of speculation linking Lord
:08:03. > :08:06.McAlpine to that allegation, and today he says there is a media
:08:06. > :08:10.frenzy, I have to expect that an editor will soon come under
:08:10. > :08:15.pressure to misnaming me, and he has decided that he must publicly
:08:15. > :08:19.tackle the slurs and set the record straight. Now, he says very
:08:19. > :08:22.specifically that he had only ever been to Wrexham once, that was in
:08:22. > :08:27.his role within the Conservative Party, he was accompanied by a
:08:27. > :08:30.party agent. He said that he had never stayed in a hotel nearby, he
:08:30. > :08:36.did not have a Rolls-Royce, where some of this is alleged to have
:08:36. > :08:40.happened. He says specifically, I did not sexually abused any
:08:40. > :08:46.resident of the children's home in Wrexham. He goes on, interestingly
:08:46. > :08:52.enough, to express strong sympathy for people who have been victims of
:08:52. > :08:58.abuse. He describes it as abhorrent. And it also says that he does not
:08:58. > :09:02.accuse Steve Messham of any kind of malicious intent. He simply thinks
:09:02. > :09:06.that if he believes Lord McAlpine was the man who abused him all the
:09:06. > :09:11.years ago, I can only suggest he is mistaken and he has identified the
:09:11. > :09:15.wrong person. So interestingly, such a senior figure from the past
:09:15. > :09:19.has decided that the only way to confront these allegations is to
:09:19. > :09:22.come out publicly, to try to clear his name, and the risk is of course
:09:22. > :09:26.that his name and his picture are then going to be up there in the
:09:26. > :09:30.newspapers, but he has clearly decided he cannot let the innuendo
:09:30. > :09:34.continue. All right, thank you for bringing us up to date. His
:09:34. > :09:38.statement comes after the story in the garden this morning which also
:09:38. > :09:41.named Lord McAlpine, saying that they believed Newsnight had got the
:09:41. > :09:46.wrong man, although they did not name him on Newsnight. But there
:09:46. > :09:51.was another McAlpine who may have been in a frame, it all gets very
:09:51. > :09:54.muddied and complicated, and those allegations of abuse in North Wales
:09:54. > :09:59.followed the revelations about Jimmy Savile, and before that the
:09:59. > :10:03.convictions for child remain in Rochdale. It seems that sexual
:10:03. > :10:07.abuse, child abuse is everywhere when you turn on the news these
:10:07. > :10:12.days, but is it really true? Is there a danger that the pursuit of
:10:12. > :10:17.abuses is turning into a witch-hunt led by usually anonymous people on
:10:17. > :10:20.the internet? Are innocent people being placed under suspicion, wild
:10:20. > :10:24.accusations flying around cyberspace with very little
:10:24. > :10:32.evidence ever produced to back them up? This is what David Cameron had
:10:32. > :10:35.to say when he was on ITV's programme yesterday. This is one of
:10:35. > :10:40.the problems, I have heard all sorts of names being bandied around,
:10:40. > :10:43.and everyone sits around and speculates about people, and on a
:10:43. > :10:47.second, some of whom are alive, some of whom are dead, and I think
:10:47. > :10:51.it is very important that anyone has any information at any
:10:51. > :10:56.paedophile, no matter how high up in the community, alive or dead, go
:10:56. > :11:00.to the police. This is very important... A cursory glance at
:11:00. > :11:04.the internet, it took me about three minutes last night to
:11:05. > :11:08.continually find a list of the same names. I have those names there,
:11:08. > :11:12.those are the names on a piece of paper. You know the names on the
:11:12. > :11:17.piece of paper, will you be speaking to those people? This is
:11:17. > :11:21.really important, right? There is a danger, if we are not careful, that
:11:21. > :11:25.this could turn into a sort of witch hunt, particularly against
:11:25. > :11:28.people Bouake. And I am worried about the sort of things you are
:11:28. > :11:33.doing right now, giving me a list of names who have taken off the
:11:33. > :11:36.internet. We are joined now by David Aaronovitch of the Times, who
:11:36. > :11:40.yesterday wrote a column about the dangers of a witch-hunt, and by
:11:40. > :11:45.Holly Dustin, director of End Violence Against Women. Welcome to
:11:45. > :11:49.both of you. David, you think there is the whiff of a witch-hunt around
:11:49. > :11:52.this. I think there is a danger, there is a right way and a wrong
:11:52. > :11:56.way to do this. The right way is what Keir Starmer did when he
:11:56. > :12:00.looked at what was happening in Rochdale and said, we have to look
:12:00. > :12:03.at police practice and review police practice in dealing with
:12:03. > :12:07.allegations of abuse by vulnerable people. That was the correct way to
:12:07. > :12:11.do it. Then the incorrect way, the worst way, and that is what we saw
:12:11. > :12:14.from Phillips Schofield, and frankly I think we saw a Newsnight
:12:14. > :12:18.the other night when they put up Steve Messham to make an allegation
:12:18. > :12:21.which was referring to somebody whom the Guardian then said later,
:12:21. > :12:25.name does not actually being responsible, which brings up the
:12:25. > :12:27.question of how it was that he was misidentified in the first place
:12:27. > :12:31.and what that Ms identification means. Then there are the claims
:12:31. > :12:36.which have been made in Parliament and elsewhere that there is a
:12:36. > :12:39.powerful network of paedophiles in the political sphere who wait to be
:12:39. > :12:43.uncovered, and for which there appears to be no evidence
:12:43. > :12:48.whatsoever. I can tell you that my Twitter Fiat is full of people who
:12:48. > :12:53.believe there is and that failures of past enquiries mean that
:12:53. > :12:57.anything is possible. -- Twitter feed. People look at the Olympics
:12:57. > :13:03.go feel and say, yes, he knows something, he is an official
:13:03. > :13:08.journalist. -- Philip Schofield. I think it was outrageous, the kind
:13:08. > :13:12.of self-righteous way in which he presented a completely useless and
:13:12. > :13:17.ridiculous list to the Prime Minister in that way, as if to say,
:13:17. > :13:20.look at me! It took me at least three minutes to get the list!
:13:20. > :13:24.There is clearly a problem with the way that the media is dealing with
:13:24. > :13:29.these issues, and what we saw yesterday was not acceptable.
:13:29. > :13:34.not just the media, might with their feet is full of the same
:13:34. > :13:37.things. It is the same with social media, we are burying our head in
:13:37. > :13:41.the sands. You only have to look at the sentencing for the people who
:13:41. > :13:46.named the rape victim in the Ched Evans case to know that there is a
:13:46. > :13:49.big issue with social media. But look, we have got a situation where
:13:49. > :13:52.we have got an unprecedented number of women, mainly, and some men
:13:52. > :13:56.coming forward to say they were abused in the past, they were
:13:56. > :14:01.silenced, dismissed, not listened to, finally having the courage to
:14:01. > :14:05.come forward because of what we are seeing in the media. But I think,
:14:05. > :14:09.you know, talking about a witch- hunts, talking about people making
:14:09. > :14:14.up allegations is the wrong message to be sending. We need to be saying,
:14:14. > :14:18.we believe you, there is support out there, we need to be going
:14:18. > :14:21.through due process and the courts system if that is what people want
:14:21. > :14:26.to be doing. But you are right to raise a concern, but the concern is
:14:26. > :14:29.about the media, not people making up abuse, because there is no
:14:29. > :14:34.evidence that there are higher numbers of false allegations in
:14:34. > :14:37.relation to rape cases, for example, than other crimes. Let me bring
:14:37. > :14:41.David in to reply to that. entirely agree that there have been
:14:41. > :14:45.a lot of people out there and continue to be people who are not
:14:45. > :14:49.believed and not heard. I cannot think it is true, unfortunately,
:14:49. > :14:53.that there are no false allegations, and probably no more so than in
:14:53. > :14:56.other spheres, but this is where people are zeroing in so hard that
:14:56. > :14:59.those false allegations gained a kind of attraction that they do not
:15:00. > :15:03.in other spheres of life. I honestly believe that, we could
:15:03. > :15:07.privately go through some of the allegations that have been made and
:15:07. > :15:15.I could convince you that there was a very big problem with some of the
:15:15. > :15:19.allegations that have been made and I have looked at the evidence and
:15:19. > :15:26.so has the government, because they want to give anonymity. They found
:15:26. > :15:29.there was no evidence to make that policy change. We know only about
:15:29. > :15:34.or one in 10 they put victims report to the police because they
:15:34. > :15:40.feel they will be not believed and so on. I just wonder, experts on
:15:40. > :15:46.sexual violence, primarily perpetrated by men against women
:15:46. > :15:54.and some boys, this is very common, it is in every community, in homes
:15:54. > :15:57.and towns and cities. Which makes it all the harder to find out.
:15:57. > :16:02.not as their historic problem. I wonder whether the scale of what
:16:02. > :16:09.we're looking at is whether this is where the backlash is coming from.
:16:09. > :16:18.Why do some men choose to abuse? Rape? I would like you to write a
:16:18. > :16:23.column about that. I have written. Do you believe the claims,
:16:23. > :16:28.substance to the claims, that there is some kind of high powered
:16:28. > :16:33.paedophile ring at the heart of Westminster? I haven't looked in
:16:33. > :16:37.detail at those claims. There are certainly some men who sexually
:16:37. > :16:40.abuse in networks, some men who abuse on their own. You don't think
:16:40. > :16:47.there is evidence to justify an investigation into a Westminster
:16:47. > :16:51.network? I think we need to join up all these inquiries and look at the
:16:51. > :16:58.scale of sexual violence and abuse in this country. And how we support
:16:58. > :17:04.victims. It's a real problem with joining up the inquiries. A judge
:17:04. > :17:09.lead judicial inquiry, we would be here for 25 years. Also the victims
:17:09. > :17:13.would be dead. We already have a problem with historic abuse and
:17:13. > :17:21.deciding what has happened with that because stories change and
:17:21. > :17:26.develop and so on and most claims are not malicious. Each time we
:17:26. > :17:31.have had a reiteration of a major child abuse scare, and so on, which
:17:31. > :17:36.is good it comes forward, unfortunately, we've had a malign
:17:36. > :17:43.element which has gone off on a tangent. We had it during the
:17:43. > :17:48.satanic ritual abuse claims and so on which led to the situation in
:17:48. > :17:53.Nottingham. Why can't we go from taking these things seriously
:17:53. > :18:02.without having to go to the witch hunt element which becomes a
:18:02. > :18:11.problem. If you have an over arching inquiry, what chance to
:18:11. > :18:17.mind was the Sunday bloody Sunday inquiry. It cost �250 million. It
:18:17. > :18:21.took over 12 years to report. problem is, it's very easy to say,
:18:21. > :18:26.this was a problem at the BBC Light Entertainment department in the
:18:26. > :18:32.1970s and Eighties, which frankly it was not. I don't think anybody
:18:32. > :18:39.said that. It's happening now. It's very common. 60,000 women in this
:18:39. > :18:46.country are raped each year. No one is denying that. Least of all David.
:18:46. > :18:50.I think his point is, because of the cacophony of sound coming out
:18:50. > :18:55.with accusations being made almost every day, the chances of really
:18:55. > :18:58.getting to the truth are becoming more difficult. There is a real
:18:59. > :19:04.issue with how the media reports with this issue and with libel and
:19:04. > :19:08.social media and those issues. is the mainstream media done wrong?
:19:08. > :19:15.The we look at what happened yesterday with Phillip Schofield.
:19:15. > :19:21.You think that was wrong? That's not helpful. The danger here is,
:19:21. > :19:25.there are clearly major child abuse accusations both historic and
:19:25. > :19:30.current to answer. But they are now being wrapped in a smoke of every
:19:30. > :19:34.morning, fresh accusations without evidence. There is also a danger
:19:34. > :19:39.the internet is bad and everything about the internet is bad. You
:19:39. > :19:46.might expect that to come from me. And the print media and additional
:19:46. > :19:50.media is good. This was a mainstream television programme of.
:19:51. > :19:54.We have got to be very careful. Rumours fly around the internet all
:19:54. > :19:58.the time of the also at the heart of this is something very, very
:19:58. > :20:03.serious and people need to be brought to account whether they
:20:03. > :20:07.work at Westminster or look after children in care. I think this is
:20:07. > :20:12.the start, isn't it? The fact of the matter is, as these inquiries
:20:12. > :20:17.unfold, we will learn a lot about what's going on of. It's still
:20:17. > :20:22.going on today. In the Seventies and Eighties, it wasn't just a few
:20:22. > :20:27.people are turning a blind eye to it but a large part of society.
:20:27. > :20:30.turned a blind eye to it in Rochdale. Girls were going to
:20:31. > :20:36.school clearly vulnerable, smelling of alcohol, and clearly showing
:20:36. > :20:41.signs of abuse and vulnerability and they were written off as being
:20:41. > :20:45.consenting to be involved in prostitution. I think this is where
:20:45. > :20:49.I'm concerned about what chance for so I don't think we should close
:20:49. > :20:54.the door to a conversation that needs to happen. I think the witch
:20:54. > :20:58.hunt closes the door and that's why I think we have got to satisfy a
:20:58. > :21:01.proper standards of evidence and complaint because, if we don't,
:21:01. > :21:08.people will get the idea that none of this is true. And then you have
:21:08. > :21:12.the problem You are talking about. Where does the story go from here?
:21:12. > :21:17.This atmosphere will build and build and build because they have
:21:17. > :21:24.been several suggestions of different people, who won not the
:21:24. > :21:29.person and people agree. -- who are not the person. Not named. As long
:21:29. > :21:34.as that continues, this story will have the social meaning elsewhere.
:21:35. > :21:40.After something has been said enough, on the internet, there
:21:40. > :21:45.comes up point when people say, it's out there. There is no
:21:45. > :21:48.stopping it in that sense. We have to begin to come down a bit.
:21:48. > :21:52.think what we need to do is encourage victims to come forward
:21:52. > :21:58.and survivors and say, you will be supported and not dismissed and you
:21:58. > :22:03.will be believed. You can't do that until you know they are victims.
:22:03. > :22:06.There is due process a but most of it turns out actually that they
:22:06. > :22:15.don't report to the police, said they won support services, we'd
:22:15. > :22:25.Up yes, to the right people. Don't go inside your story to a newspaper.
:22:25. > :22:27.
:22:27. > :22:31.Don't tell everybody. There was a horrific video uploaded to YouTube
:22:31. > :22:36.about her father abusing her, and it is tragic watching this poor
:22:36. > :22:40.girl, tears streaming down her face, but they need to know places they
:22:40. > :22:47.can go to speak to, rather than broadcasting it everywhere. We will
:22:47. > :22:50.return to this but, for the moment, thank you. Now, the waiting is over,
:22:50. > :22:54.the internal wrangling concluded and the white smoke has appeared
:22:54. > :22:57.from the chimney. Oh, wait a minute, I've got my churches mixed up. For
:22:57. > :23:00.it is not a Pope that we proclaim this morning, but a new Archbishop
:23:00. > :23:08.of Canterbury. His name is Justin Welby and he's an ex-oil executive
:23:08. > :23:13.who has only been a bishop for a year. Cannot be right? He has
:23:13. > :23:17.probably read the Financial Times. Let's hear from the man himself. He
:23:17. > :23:21.was quick to address one of the most controversial issues in his
:23:21. > :23:27.newly elevated in box. Same-sex marriages and his opposition to
:23:27. > :23:33.them. What the Church does here deeply affects the already greatly
:23:33. > :23:36.suffering churches in places like Nigeria. I support the House of
:23:36. > :23:41.Bishops statement in the summer in answer to the Government's
:23:41. > :23:46.consultation on same-sex marriage. But I also know I need to listen
:23:46. > :23:54.very attentively to the LG Beattie community, and examine my own
:23:54. > :23:58.thinking carefully. I am always adverse to the language of
:23:58. > :24:03.exclusion, when what we are called to his two lava in the same way as
:24:03. > :24:12.Jesus Christ loves us. In the church, we need to create safe
:24:12. > :24:19.spaces for these issues to be discussed in honesty and in love.
:24:19. > :24:25.We are joined by the Second Church Estates Commissioner. Who was the
:24:25. > :24:33.first? Andrew Smith. You're playing second fiddle to a journalist?
:24:33. > :24:39.That's the way it works. And Giles Fraser former Canon at St Paul's
:24:39. > :24:44.and now a vicar in South London. He's now a vicar. What kind of man
:24:44. > :24:49.is the new bishop? It's good news for the Church. I think he is a
:24:49. > :24:53.people person. I think he will be a good leader, clear leadership. I
:24:53. > :24:56.think one saw that there, he will listen but also lead, and I think
:24:56. > :25:03.he will be keen to ensure the Church of England becomes a
:25:03. > :25:07.national voice. A church for the nation and it has a presence.
:25:07. > :25:13.can it be a church for the nation that hardly anybody goes to it?
:25:13. > :25:18.That is what he will want to do. I think Justin Welby in the next 20
:25:18. > :25:23.years will want to ensure that the Church becomes a Church of growth.
:25:23. > :25:29.Not just obsessed by sex. I think the Church of England in the last
:25:29. > :25:34.couple of years, for some time, has been obsessed by it sex and its own
:25:34. > :25:40.internal issues. And there's two jobs for him to do, to hold the
:25:40. > :25:46.Church together, but the other much more important is to forget about
:25:46. > :25:50.the Church and to speak out to people in the nation and trying to
:25:50. > :25:55.recommend the Christian faith in an intelligent, sensible way.
:25:55. > :25:59.think this other man who can do it? I do, at I to disagree with him on
:25:59. > :26:07.a number of things but I'm happy to put it aside. Why was he chose
:26:07. > :26:10.then? I think he was chosen because he impressed the committee by his
:26:10. > :26:15.commitment to wanting to reinvigorate the church and reach
:26:15. > :26:19.out. Does it work that this committee puts just a couple of
:26:19. > :26:24.names up? The Prime Minister makes the final choice. What has got to
:26:24. > :26:29.be clear, a boring issue, when Gordon Brown was prime minister,
:26:29. > :26:33.without consulting anyone, he decided he didn't want number 10 to
:26:33. > :26:41.have any further involvement in the appointment of Archbishop of
:26:41. > :26:45.Canterbury's. Because there was a Scotsman. Absolutely. He got rid of
:26:45. > :26:55.this. This will be the first time an archbishop has been chosen by
:26:55. > :27:00.the Church, which is a good thing. The process is, done by the
:27:00. > :27:07.establishment in smoke-filled rooms. In terms of democracy, it's more
:27:07. > :27:12.like China than the USA. But, nonetheless, actually, it's the one
:27:12. > :27:18.key process but it has produced the right manner. What do you think
:27:18. > :27:21.about his career as an oil executive? He hasn't be
:27:21. > :27:27.institutionalised by the Church and that's a good thing. He has got a
:27:27. > :27:29.hinterland. He spoke to me about the occupying and thought they were
:27:29. > :27:35.substantially right about the criticisms of what is happening of
:27:35. > :27:39.modern capitalism. He is excoriating on problems of wealth
:27:39. > :27:44.and poverty and the huge gap between the rich and poor. I think
:27:44. > :27:48.the fact he can also speak the language of finance and is not
:27:48. > :27:53.embarrassed about that, is very important. He's done very well on
:27:53. > :28:01.the Banking Commission. Excoriating on the gap between rich and poor.
:28:01. > :28:06.That must cheer you up. Yes, the Church has to speak as it sees.
:28:06. > :28:09.It's important. Actually, what it's really doing, if one has an
:28:09. > :28:16.Archbishop of Canterbury who speaks his mind, the government can
:28:16. > :28:26.respond to that and I'm sure it will collate. How long before it
:28:26. > :28:29.
:28:29. > :28:33.falls out with the prime minister? But is no indication of friction. A
:28:33. > :28:37.good proportion of the Conservative Party is falling out with a prime
:28:37. > :28:43.minister at the moment. He has to speak truth to power and sometimes
:28:43. > :28:47.it will not be palatable. The job of the Church through the century
:28:47. > :28:53.is to be part of power. It's part of the established Church of
:28:54. > :29:03.England. A you're absolutely right. How can it speak truth to itself?
:29:04. > :29:04.
:29:04. > :29:10.That's what it's supposed to do. You can remember rows. What about
:29:10. > :29:13.the non-conformist churches, the Methodists? If Britain go up to
:29:13. > :29:17.date more than the 19th century, I was usually inspired, came into the
:29:17. > :29:24.church because the people like the Bishop of Durham on the miners'
:29:24. > :29:29.strike, face in the City, which didn't annoy Mrs Thatcher, and
:29:29. > :29:34.Rowan Williams has done that over the war, the finance, in ways that
:29:34. > :29:42.haven't endeared him. They were all left wing. You have somebody now
:29:42. > :29:46.centre right. No, I don't think so. You think it's part of the right?
:29:46. > :29:50.The you can't pigeonhole him. because of the school he went to,
:29:50. > :29:54.whatever. The I'm not saying it's because of the school you went to
:29:54. > :30:01.put some of the things he said. is anti-gay marriage but there's
:30:01. > :30:09.nobody who could get his job at the moment who is pro-gay marriage. The
:30:09. > :30:13.Church would implode. Really? It's still that toxic. Yes, I'm in
:30:13. > :30:19.favour of it. I wish we had an archbishop who argued for it but we
:30:19. > :30:24.will not have that. If you bracket that one out, because it's an
:30:24. > :30:31.impossibility, Justin Welby is not a right-wing person in the way you
:30:31. > :30:39.have described. Those terms don't break down. Let me bring in our
:30:39. > :30:49.other guests for that do we do this too much prominence? Nobody chose
:30:49. > :30:50.
:30:50. > :30:55.the Archbishop of Canterbury I know. It is on our front page today.
:30:55. > :30:59.is because he was a banker, they look after their own! We take a
:30:59. > :31:03.certain interest in his views, and he has an interesting position, a
:31:03. > :31:08.member of the House of Lords, sitting on a committee advising the
:31:08. > :31:12.government of legislating on the banking industry, the most senior
:31:12. > :31:15.cleric in a land as well. I think he will be an interesting figure in
:31:15. > :31:19.the public debate. Rowan Williams did not get as involved in the
:31:19. > :31:24.financial crisis and the aftermath as he could have done, and I think
:31:24. > :31:29.this archbishop is going to be a strong voice in the story of
:31:29. > :31:33.responsible capitalism. He is very much on the Ed Miliband agenda.
:31:33. > :31:36.financial, banking issues. Responsibility in the boardroom,
:31:36. > :31:42.but he made a good speech a month ago about the socially useless
:31:42. > :31:46.activity of bankers in the run-up to the crash. This is a big story
:31:46. > :31:49.for the Huffington Post? usually, we have covered it, but I
:31:49. > :31:53.agree that there is a bit of a media storm around it, a political
:31:53. > :31:57.storm because Downing Street announced it, and actually I found
:31:57. > :32:04.it ridiculous that Downing Street in the 21st century, they are the
:32:04. > :32:07.ones deciding who it is. You have to decide where the church gets...
:32:07. > :32:13.The population at large will not be talking about this in the way that
:32:13. > :32:18.we are, but one final point, we are talking about how he is pro women
:32:18. > :32:21.bishops, I was talking about a female Archbishop of Canterbury in
:32:21. > :32:25.future, that is what we should be talking about. Hopefully the week
:32:25. > :32:28.after next we would get the women's bishop measure through the General
:32:29. > :32:32.Synod, and if that happens, in due course there will be no reason why
:32:32. > :32:36.one should not have a woman archbishop. You would be in favour
:32:36. > :32:41.of that? If you have women bishops, the logic is you will have a woman
:32:41. > :32:45.archbishop. I think it is a bigger story than we are making out, not a
:32:45. > :32:48.lesser story. There are 16,000 parishes in this country, other
:32:48. > :32:53.things are important in the Westminster village, but in the
:32:53. > :32:55.country this is rather important, the Church of England. It is still
:32:55. > :32:59.something that stitches together communities the length and breadth
:32:59. > :33:04.of this country in places that other organisations do not function,
:33:04. > :33:08.so it is very important. Is it not true that more people go to the
:33:08. > :33:13.mosque on Friday that the Church of England on Sunday? I don't know the
:33:13. > :33:19.answer to that question. I think he will find the answer is yes, so
:33:19. > :33:24.where is the position for the Mahler in the British constitution?
:33:24. > :33:29.They clearly represent more church or mosque-go in people. The Church
:33:29. > :33:34.of England has been part of the fabric of this country for hundreds
:33:35. > :33:38.of years. I think it is a radical thing. The thing is, it does not
:33:38. > :33:42.work on left and right, it just does not work on the traditional
:33:42. > :33:47.patterns that you assume. Earlier this year, the Muslim, Jewish and
:33:47. > :33:50.other faith communities met with the Queen at Lambeth, part of the
:33:50. > :33:53.Jubilee celebrations, and they all acknowledge that one of the reasons
:33:53. > :33:57.they felt comfortable about freedom of religion in this country was
:33:57. > :34:03.because of the role of the established church, and that was, I
:34:03. > :34:08.thought, quite clever. Just before we go, how difficult is it to the
:34:08. > :34:14.parliament's Second Church Estates Commissioner? Look, let me tell you,
:34:14. > :34:17.Andrew, the most challenging thing for me in recent weeks is to find
:34:18. > :34:23.that I made as a Conservative backbencher a speech in support of
:34:23. > :34:30.the government, and that became so unusual that it made the 7:10am on
:34:30. > :34:33.the Today programme. Now you on the 12:30pm slot on the Daily Politics!
:34:33. > :34:37.The important thing for the Conservative Party is working out
:34:37. > :34:42.how to win the next election, being Second Church Estates Commissioner
:34:42. > :34:52.is a doddle in comparison. Just as well, because I see it is unpaid!
:34:52. > :35:01.
:35:01. > :35:07.You get a bloody good memorial I knew him when he was a student! I
:35:07. > :35:11.will be there! He will not have a say! Thank you all.
:35:11. > :35:17.In six days' time the good people of Corby will be asked to brave the
:35:17. > :35:24.winter weather and a vote for a new MP because... Excuse to me, please
:35:24. > :35:29.wait, these Church Commissioners, honestly! The by-election is
:35:29. > :35:33.happening because Louise Mensch, remember, she won and 2010, she
:35:33. > :35:36.decided to stand down in order to spend more time with her family in
:35:37. > :35:41.the United States, that is what she said. There is a slim Conservative
:35:41. > :35:44.majority of under 2000, not a lot for a by-election, and Labour have
:35:44. > :35:48.high hopes of overturning that, they are clear favourites to win
:35:48. > :35:52.and win well. If they do, it will be their first by-election gain
:35:52. > :36:02.from the Tories for more than 15 years, so a lot at stake, as David
:36:02. > :36:04.
:36:04. > :36:07.Corby, a constituency of two halves, a gritty post-industrial town
:36:07. > :36:11.meeting cosy countryside village, which is why, if you want to know
:36:12. > :36:17.which way the political wind is blowing, you come to this corner of
:36:18. > :36:22.East Northamptonshire. Generally speaking, running Corby is a good
:36:22. > :36:25.idea if you want to be the government. It was Labour in 1997
:36:25. > :36:30.at Taurean 2010, so the by-election is being seen as a political
:36:30. > :36:34.weather vane, which is just like -- just what Michael Gove could do
:36:34. > :36:39.without wit right now. Louise Mensch is sitting down to spend
:36:39. > :36:45.more time without -- Louise Mensch is stepping down to spend more time
:36:45. > :36:48.with her husband in America, not a popular decision universally. The
:36:48. > :36:54.Conservative candidate and her friends in high places still
:36:54. > :36:59.believe they can hold on. I will see you in a week's time when you
:36:59. > :37:04.are elected! We need to be collecting the next MP, not
:37:04. > :37:08.worrying about the last one. People want aspiration and hope, new jobs,
:37:08. > :37:12.good education, and that is what I am hearing on the doorsteps, and
:37:12. > :37:16.they know I would use my business background to encourage investment,
:37:16. > :37:20.encourage investment like the link road that we have agreed to invest
:37:20. > :37:24.in, encourage investment like the new jobs down at skew Bridge, and
:37:24. > :37:28.that is why I am convinced that the pollsters are wrong. Maybe, but
:37:28. > :37:32.others think the Louise Mensch factor has not really help. There
:37:32. > :37:35.is a definite and happiness that she has turned down. The Tories
:37:35. > :37:39.might not say it to you, but privately they are quite annoyed by
:37:39. > :37:43.that. I think the Labour Party will make capital on the back of it, and
:37:43. > :37:47.I think that they see it as a great opportunity to take back a seat
:37:47. > :37:51.that they think is traditionally there's any way. They do, but the
:37:51. > :37:54.Labour candidate is not taking anything for granted. You could see
:37:54. > :37:58.he is road-testing Ed Miliband's One nation mantra on the leafy
:37:58. > :38:01.lanes of Northamptonshire. What would you have to do to lose this
:38:01. > :38:05.election? It is really important that anybody talking about his
:38:05. > :38:09.election comes to see how diverse this constituency is, that we are
:38:09. > :38:15.trying to make sure that it will work for the whole of Corby and
:38:15. > :38:20.East Northamptonshire, chocolate- box villages, Corby town itself, we
:38:20. > :38:24.are fighting for every vote, and we up asking people to show their
:38:24. > :38:29.trust in One nation Labour. Spare a thought for the Lib Dems. The
:38:29. > :38:33.pundits think they can be knocked into 4th place by UKIP, but the
:38:33. > :38:35.candidate says that actually it is all still up for grabs. I think
:38:35. > :38:39.they are wrong, because on the doorstep people are saying they
:38:39. > :38:43.have not made up their minds, and they are conservative and Labour
:38:43. > :38:46.voters that are saying to us, I really do not know who to vote for,
:38:46. > :38:50.and we have really enjoyed that because it gives us the opportunity
:38:50. > :38:56.to talk with them, to find out what the issues are and hopefully to
:38:56. > :39:00.convert them to our cause. As for UKIP, Margot Parker is working hard
:39:00. > :39:03.to convince the voters they are more than a single-issue party.
:39:03. > :39:08.are knocking on doors, Labour people are saying, we are
:39:08. > :39:12.definitely going for UKIP. Conservatives, I have just spoken
:39:12. > :39:15.to two people, they will definitely vote for us. We are stepping up to
:39:15. > :39:19.the plate and listening to what they Hussain, and they are agreeing
:39:19. > :39:24.with us, so we have a good manifesto based on local issues. --
:39:24. > :39:27.what they are saying. How Corby votes will not tell us definitively
:39:27. > :39:30.he will win the next general election, but it might give us a
:39:30. > :39:35.clue, and that is why for all the parties these lanes and walkways
:39:35. > :39:41.really matter. You can find the full list of
:39:41. > :39:44.candidates standing in Corby on the BBC News website. George, everybody
:39:44. > :39:49.in your part of the words is assuming that Labour will win this,
:39:49. > :39:54.correct? That is correct, and by quite a big margin. Does that have
:39:54. > :39:58.significance? We have seen by- elections coming and going.
:39:58. > :40:03.circumstances of this one are quite strange, as David was just saying.
:40:03. > :40:08.That is one reason why people hate a by-election for which they see no
:40:08. > :40:13.need. I spoke to MPs will have been campaigning there, and there is a
:40:13. > :40:16.real animosity towards Louise Mensch, who is standing down. So
:40:16. > :40:21.strange circumstances, but if Labour did not win, it would be
:40:21. > :40:25.extraordinary. It is a weather vane seat, the Midlands, a key
:40:25. > :40:28.battleground, it is important for Ed Miliband, a stepping stone, but
:40:28. > :40:33.no more than that. It is always good to win if you are the
:40:33. > :40:37.opposition. I was looking at polling yesterday, how far ahead
:40:37. > :40:41.are the Tories, but when they were asking whether that would have an
:40:41. > :40:45.impact on how they would vote in a general election, yes, people are
:40:45. > :40:49.saying they would vote Labour, but not for Miliband if they were
:40:49. > :40:54.picking a prime minister. I think there is still some concern there.
:40:54. > :40:58.Next Thursday, is it? It is, the same night as the elections for
:40:58. > :41:08.police commissioners, will be more of a nationwide test. By which you
:41:08. > :41:13.
:41:13. > :41:16.mean England. Of course, sorry The backlog of unresolved cases at
:41:16. > :41:19.the Border Agency means some immigrants may enjoy an amnesty as
:41:19. > :41:23.their cases are written-off. The Immigration Minister was not
:41:23. > :41:28.available to come onto the Daily Politics, but he has been
:41:28. > :41:32.responding elsewhere on the BBC this morning. We are not going to
:41:32. > :41:35.do an amnesty. Where we see no evidence that people are in the
:41:35. > :41:38.country from inherited cases, we will put their files on one side,
:41:38. > :41:43.but if those people come to light again, we will take action against
:41:43. > :41:46.them. Where we have evidence they are in the country, we will first
:41:46. > :41:50.of all contact them and try to persuade them to leave voluntarily.
:41:50. > :41:54.If that fails, we will take steps to enforce their removal from the
:41:54. > :41:58.country, that is what the public expects, and that is what we are
:41:58. > :42:02.going to do, and we expect to have gone through those cases and know
:42:02. > :42:07.which of the two categories people are in by the end of this year.
:42:07. > :42:11.That is the line from the minister, not the line of the man we were
:42:11. > :42:16.hoping to speak to, Keith Vaz of the Home Affairs Select Committee,
:42:16. > :42:20.but he is stuck in a traffic jam on the M1 apparently. There has been a
:42:20. > :42:25.bad accident on the M1, and that has held him up. To prepare to see
:42:25. > :42:32.him, I was looking at the figures, there are currently 20 have eyes
:42:32. > :42:36.and asylum cases going through. -- 25,500 asylum cases going through.
:42:36. > :42:40.But there are 74,000 made up of individuals with whom officials are
:42:40. > :42:45.no longer in touch, in other words they have lost them. Then there is
:42:45. > :42:49.the migration refusal pool, that is people who are recorded as having
:42:49. > :42:52.no permission to be in the UK but they do not know where they are, in
:42:52. > :42:57.other words they have lost them! The whole thing is a complete
:42:57. > :43:01.Horlicks. Yes, it is, and you need an effective system which gives bad
:43:01. > :43:05.guys out, controls the numbers effectively and everyone knows
:43:05. > :43:09.where they are. And keeping the doors open for people who bring
:43:09. > :43:13.wealth and jobs and prosperity to this country. It sounds so simple,
:43:13. > :43:16.doesn't it? We know the system is not working and the Border Agency
:43:16. > :43:20.is a complete mess, we saw that at Heathrow before the summer, and
:43:20. > :43:27.this is further evidence. Every government tries to come to grips
:43:27. > :43:32.with this. The number is something like the population of Iceland.
:43:32. > :43:36.think that came to the committee, more than 300,000 cases need to be
:43:36. > :43:41.dealt with, needed to be dealt with at the end of June, and that is
:43:41. > :43:46.equivalent to the population of Iceland. The Sun newspaper
:43:46. > :43:52.helpfully points out that meant the country and not the supermarket!
:43:52. > :43:59.am glad that is cleared up for us! When you look at this, they lost
:43:59. > :44:06.74,000, they have lost 174,000, whatever the minister says, your
:44:06. > :44:09.antennae picked up. They are going to give an amnesty. Surely we now
:44:09. > :44:13.have to have a sensible debate about the amnesty. Boris Johnson
:44:13. > :44:18.was talking about is a few years ago, it is not necessary a right or
:44:18. > :44:21.left issue, no-one can work out to do, so why can't we have a sensible
:44:21. > :44:27.debate to work out if there are people contributing to this country,
:44:27. > :44:33.or that really needs to stay here, we cannot send them back to war-
:44:34. > :44:38.torn countries, then let's talk about it sensibly. If you do not in
:44:38. > :44:41.a blanket amnesty, which would be incredibly unpopular, if you start
:44:41. > :44:46.to say as has been happening in America we are going to give an
:44:46. > :44:50.amnesty to kids who have been born here and are now working or being
:44:50. > :44:56.educated, they are Americans, you could do that here, but if you have
:44:56. > :45:06.a controlled archive that you have lost, 74,000, and a refusal pool of
:45:06. > :45:11.
:45:11. > :45:14.174,000, you cannot do that, you do This is a huge problem for the
:45:14. > :45:18.government. They will have to give amnesties to the people who are
:45:18. > :45:23.here and that is a terrible hole in their policy. Republicans can't
:45:23. > :45:27.work out what their policy is in the USA, and that had an impact in
:45:27. > :45:36.the presidential elections to the Tories need to work it out. We're
:45:36. > :45:39.talking here, not just about asylum-seekers, but, let's move on.
:45:39. > :45:42.Now, a report out today suggests the number of complaints made about
:45:42. > :45:45.the Health Service are increasing. Not good news for the Health
:45:45. > :45:51.Secretary Jeremy Hunt. He is new in the job. So what's been the
:45:51. > :45:56.problem? The NHS received over 150,000 complaints between 2011 and
:45:56. > :45:59.2012. Of those just over 16,000 patients or family members were
:45:59. > :46:02.dissatisfied with how the NHS tried to resolve the issue and so were
:46:02. > :46:05.referred to the Health Service Ombudsman. That's up 8% on last
:46:05. > :46:09.year. Complaints include a man whose skin cancer was misdiagnosed
:46:09. > :46:16.by his GP practice on six different occasions but who was unable to get
:46:16. > :46:19.the practice to acknowledge their failings when he complained.
:46:19. > :46:24.Another who was accused by a surgeon of being a baby when he
:46:24. > :46:27.expressed his anxiety about having a general anaesthetic. And a
:46:27. > :46:30.bereaved daughter who was told death is rarely an ideal situation
:46:30. > :46:40.for anyone and that, truth be told, your mother probably said her
:46:40. > :46:42.
:46:42. > :46:45.goodbyes long before the final moments. Julie Mellor, the new
:46:45. > :46:53.ombudsman has said there needed to be a clear shift in attitude and
:46:53. > :46:57.practice among some GPs. We had seen an increase in the number of
:46:57. > :47:01.cases where the NHS has not acknowledged a mistake was made, an
:47:01. > :47:07.increase in the number of cases where they have not explained what
:47:07. > :47:12.actually happened, and an increase in in the sincere, inadequate
:47:12. > :47:16.apologies, and that matters because it damages confidence in the NHS,
:47:16. > :47:25.which provides fantastic ear to thousands of people every day -- in
:47:25. > :47:27.sincere. -- fantastic care. Well, to discuss this I'm joined by the
:47:27. > :47:34.Health Services Minister, Dr Daniel Poulter. And by Katherine Murphy of
:47:34. > :47:41.the Patients Association. Is the NHS in general good at dealing with
:47:41. > :47:46.people and complaints? I think the staff is a very much a defensive
:47:46. > :47:49.culture when it comes to handling complaints. Patients call the
:47:50. > :47:54.Patients Association helpline and tell us they feel it disillusioned
:47:54. > :48:02.with the system, it's very complicated, it's a very long, very
:48:03. > :48:07.bureaucratic, and the NHS rely very much on a written outcome of the
:48:07. > :48:12.complaint which obviously is a barrier to a lot of people. How can
:48:12. > :48:16.you improve that? The quality of care for the majority people is
:48:16. > :48:21.very good and many people, most patients are satisfied. We do get
:48:21. > :48:25.things wrong in the NHS sometimes. I know things go wrong and we don't
:48:25. > :48:29.always get things right. The first thing to do is for professionals in
:48:29. > :48:37.the NHS and managers to always acknowledge when things have gone
:48:37. > :48:43.wrong and to make a sincere apology. Does that happen? Sometimes they're
:48:43. > :48:48.quite slow to acknowledge something has gone badly wrong. I think, as
:48:48. > :48:52.it currently exists, the complaints process is very lengthy for people.
:48:52. > :48:59.It's too long, bureaucratic. And very often, when patients raised
:48:59. > :49:03.concerns, they don't know where in the process their concern is. What
:49:04. > :49:07.we try and encourage staff to do is, when a patient and a relative of
:49:07. > :49:10.race is a concern, while it they are still in hospital, please
:49:10. > :49:17.address the concern because the vast majority of patients want to
:49:17. > :49:20.see an improvement, they want staff to see it as a learning opportunity,
:49:20. > :49:25.an opportunity to have a conversation, not an end to a
:49:25. > :49:35.conversation. Why are complaints rising? The government recognises
:49:35. > :49:37.that we need to, we need to be quicker. We have made a commitment
:49:37. > :49:41.to make sure all complaints are acknowledged within three days
:49:41. > :49:42.because it's completely unacceptable when people have to
:49:42. > :49:47.wait months to have an acknowledgement that something has
:49:47. > :49:54.gone wrong. We're going to consult a how we can make that a reality,
:49:54. > :50:00.to improve those few cases where things go badly wrong. Overall, in
:50:00. > :50:08.terms of the report to address your question there, complaints to the
:50:08. > :50:12.ombudsman directly, they are a relatively a new body, 2009, and it
:50:12. > :50:18.only recently there has been or strict duty put in place for any
:50:18. > :50:23.hospital, GP's surgery, engaged in a complaints procedure, now has a
:50:23. > :50:26.duty not to flag up there is an ombudsman there, if at the end of
:50:26. > :50:32.the complaints procedure, the patient is not happy with how it is
:50:32. > :50:39.handled. Already, the NHS are making sure where there are
:50:39. > :50:45.complaints, they are dealt with properly. Overall complaints going
:50:45. > :50:51.up by 8% but if you break it down, 50% rise in in incidents with the
:50:51. > :51:00.NHS did not acknowledge mistakes in care and a 42% rise in complaints
:51:00. > :51:05.with inadequate remedy such as apologies being offered. Why?
:51:05. > :51:09.completely unacceptable. Sometimes what happens, we do live in an
:51:09. > :51:14.increasingly litigious age and is a lot more propensity for people to
:51:14. > :51:19.sue. Some hospitals reaction to that is to say, if we acknowledge
:51:19. > :51:22.something went wrong, we could be sued, but that's not the case. We
:51:22. > :51:27.have to understand it's about looking after people properly and
:51:27. > :51:31.recognising things have gone wrong and being open and honest about it.
:51:31. > :51:34.Admitting something has gone wrong, acknowledging some body has been
:51:34. > :51:40.treated badly and had a bad experience, doesn't mean there's
:51:40. > :51:46.going to be a big financial bill associated with it. The British are
:51:46. > :51:52.very proud of the NHS, it provides health care to everybody.
:51:52. > :51:58.Regardless of means and so on. It's a state health service but it is a
:51:58. > :52:08.massive state bureaucracy, a massive monolithic state but, --
:52:08. > :52:12.but I am off -- and it does not respond well to customer complaints.
:52:12. > :52:17.The vast majority of patients and relatives are reluctant to complain.
:52:17. > :52:21.I think we should have much more information to be given to every
:52:21. > :52:26.patient going into hospital on how they make a complaint and where
:52:26. > :52:32.they get the relevant information from. Information also on how to
:52:32. > :52:40.support them up during the process. Have you complained to the NHS?
:52:40. > :52:44.but because it's held in such high regard, I wonder whether a somehow
:52:44. > :52:49.a culture has developed inside the NHS where is not enough self-
:52:49. > :52:55.criticism. Anybody can hide behind the fact, as an institution, its
:52:55. > :53:00.sober loved and trusted. I totally agree and, despite this, it's still
:53:00. > :53:06.an institution the general public have love for. It's good that that
:53:06. > :53:09.is still there. Are the cuts impacting? Is a bigger short cuts
:53:09. > :53:19.are being taken, there is not enough time to sit and talk to
:53:19. > :53:23.people and explain to them? We are seeing stories but NHS directors --
:53:23. > :53:30.NHS Direct is to be closed. Is up to be closed? I'm not aware of that
:53:30. > :53:35.at the moment. We are told a large number of the call centres are to
:53:35. > :53:37.close. It certainly been reviewed at the moment and it's an ongoing
:53:38. > :53:45.process but a not aware any decision has been made at the
:53:45. > :53:55.moment. The unions seem to think it is. Unions are very often jump on
:53:55. > :53:56.
:53:56. > :54:00.the consultation as something... a time when cuts are happening,
:54:00. > :54:06.your Government's position is you have ring-fenced health spending,
:54:06. > :54:10.but when cash is short, is that not likely to lead to more complaints?
:54:10. > :54:16.There is no substitute for good care and the fact of the matter is,
:54:16. > :54:19.it's about the relationship between a doctors and nurses and health
:54:19. > :54:25.care professionals and their patients. That means acknowledging
:54:25. > :54:28.things have gone wrong and learning from it in the future. The NHS is
:54:29. > :54:32.getting �12.5 billion more from the government. It is good practice and
:54:32. > :54:37.good health care to make sure we learn from mistakes and improve
:54:37. > :54:42.care in the future. You're the only government minister we have one
:54:42. > :54:48.this morning. What is your reaction to Lord McAlpine's statement?
:54:48. > :54:57.was in the Guardian this morning? No, since then, make nuclear
:54:57. > :55:04.vehemently that he believes he has nothing to do with this abuse story.
:55:04. > :55:09.I think the main issue we discussed earlier on, Twitter, there are
:55:09. > :55:14.libellous things can be said about people with no truth whatsoever in
:55:14. > :55:18.a very spiteful way. When it comes down to it, we need to get away
:55:18. > :55:25.from all that and stick with the facts. There are investigations
:55:25. > :55:31.going on into allegations of abuse. Let them take place. And take it
:55:31. > :55:35.from there. It's very irresponsible for people to using the internet
:55:35. > :55:39.and a spiteful and ill-founded way. That's something we should learn
:55:39. > :55:44.from for the future as well. Thank you for that. We'll keep an eye on
:55:44. > :55:49.the complaint situation. Thank you for joining us. It's been a big
:55:49. > :55:55.week in politics with a big story dominating. Yes, the trip to the
:55:55. > :56:02.Jungle Beach is heavily in the week in 60 seconds. -- jungle features
:56:02. > :56:06.heavily. The President defeats Mitt Romney in a close-run campaign to
:56:06. > :56:14.retain the White House. Democrats rejoiced and Republicans were in
:56:14. > :56:22.despair and many others couldn't believe how much money it cost.
:56:22. > :56:32.Has gone to the jungle. Having evidently given up on the
:56:32. > :56:32.
:56:32. > :56:35.government game, I'm an MP, let me in, she has had the whip withdrawn.
:56:35. > :56:39.The the that the Prime Minister sparred with Harriet Harman and we
:56:39. > :56:45.had a parliamentary miracle. the first time in my career, I
:56:45. > :56:50.wholeheartedly agree with her. Letters for treasure this moment. -
:56:50. > :56:56.- let as the treasure this moment. David Cameron met Angela Merkel and
:56:56. > :57:06.commentators wondered whether she wants them to sit closer while he
:57:06. > :57:06.
:57:06. > :57:11.explained he might have to leave early.
:57:11. > :57:19.Coming up this week, we had the call the by-election. The elections
:57:19. > :57:25.for police commissioners in England and Wales as well. The American
:57:25. > :57:32.election, I had an argument in the studio last night with a historian
:57:33. > :57:38.who said this was a watershed election. I'm not so sure. It isn't
:57:38. > :57:44.a watershed election for the Democrats are but they are bought
:57:44. > :57:49.the Republicans who on the wrong end of the American tomography.
:57:49. > :57:53.They are in total disarray. Mitt Romney went too far to the right
:57:53. > :57:58.and then tried to backtrack but not enough to get elected. Now the tea-
:57:58. > :58:02.party are fighting. Goodness knows where we will go from here. It's
:58:02. > :58:07.interesting talking to the but Westminster. Labour said this
:58:07. > :58:09.election has not about the economy but a change in society. Both the
:58:09. > :58:15.Tories and Labour are trying to drawing conclusions from their
:58:15. > :58:21.position. Part of the problem is the Republicans have so little in
:58:21. > :58:25.common with European conservative movements. I hope you enjoyed being
:58:25. > :58:28.on the Daily Politics. And you will come back and see us on Friday.
:58:29. > :58:32.That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The One O'Clock News is
:58:32. > :58:39.starting over on BBC One now. I'll be back on BBC One on Sunday with
:58:39. > :58:44.the Sunday Politics. My guests will be the Secretary of State for