21/11/2012

:00:38. > :00:43.Morning, folks, and welcome to the Daily Politics. Today's top story:

:00:43. > :00:46.Fighting continues in Gaza. Israeli war-planes and naval forces

:00:46. > :00:51.hit dozens more targets overnight while Hamas continued to launch

:00:51. > :00:54.missiles against Israel. There is still talk of an Egyptian-brokered

:00:54. > :01:01.ceasefire. And the Americans are encouraging it. But it hasn't

:01:01. > :01:07.happened yet. And it will not be helped by the fact that within the

:01:07. > :01:10.last hour a bus has been blown up in Tel Aviv. The Church of England

:01:10. > :01:13.Synod is now in crisis session after failing to pass a motion to

:01:13. > :01:18.allow women to become Bishops. Should Parliament now step in to

:01:18. > :01:21.force compliance with equality legislation? MPs are back at

:01:21. > :01:25.Westminster after their short break, and that means Prime Minister's

:01:25. > :01:28.Questions! Hoorah! It's the highlight of our political week!

:01:28. > :01:32.We'll find out what Ed's got in store for Dave in half an hour's

:01:32. > :01:40.time. And after that, should fat people pay more than fit people for

:01:40. > :01:45.their healthcare? Former Apprentice Katie Hopkins says they should.

:01:45. > :01:54.Frankly, if you don't care about your health or body, as a taxpayer

:01:54. > :01:57.funding the NHS, Nauta wife. -- nor do I. All that in the next hour or

:01:57. > :02:03.so, and much, much more. And joining us throughout is Defence

:02:03. > :02:09.Secretary Philip Hammond and Shadow Attorney General Emily Thornberry.

:02:09. > :02:12.Welcome to you both. But first, a senior Bishop was on the radio this

:02:12. > :02:14.morning insisting that the Church had not 'committed suicide' over

:02:14. > :02:17.its failure to allow women to become Bishops. An interesting way

:02:17. > :02:20.of putting it, suggesting perhaps that he doesn't exactly think it's

:02:20. > :02:23.a great leap forward either. The outgoing Archbishop of Canterbury,

:02:23. > :02:33.Rowan Williams devoted much of the last decade to trying to persuade

:02:33. > :02:35.the Church to accept the move. This morning he expressed his sadness.

:02:35. > :02:39.whatever the motivations for voting yesterday, whatever the theological

:02:40. > :02:45.principle on which people acted and spoke, the fact remains that a

:02:45. > :02:51.great deal of this discussion is not intelligible to allow wider

:02:51. > :02:57.society. Worse than that, it seems that we are wilfully blind to some

:02:57. > :03:02.of the trains and priorities of that wider society -- the trends.

:03:02. > :03:07.We have some explaining to do. We have, as a result of yesterday,

:03:07. > :03:12.undoubtedly lost a measure of credibility. Do you agree with

:03:12. > :03:14.that? The Church of England has lost a measure of credibility?

:03:14. > :03:23.think the Church faces some difficult challenges ahead. It is

:03:23. > :03:28.not just on the ordination of women, but a series of big divisive issues

:03:28. > :03:34.which the Church has to resolve and heal. It has to find a way forward.

:03:34. > :03:38.Otherwise it will find itself marginalised. It will find members

:03:38. > :03:43.of the church with strong views on one side or other of the arguments.

:03:43. > :03:46.Increasingly, they will be attracted to splinter groups, so it

:03:46. > :03:51.is essential that the Church of England finds a way of recovering

:03:51. > :03:57.the middle ground and becoming a mainstream of Anglican thought in

:03:57. > :04:00.this country. So you were disappointed by the result? It is

:04:00. > :04:04.disappointed the Church was in crisis. You must have a view.

:04:04. > :04:07.Downing Street are disappointed. think this is a matter for the

:04:07. > :04:12.Church. It's not for me to say they should have decided one way or

:04:12. > :04:16.another. But this is clearly not going to go away. This debate will

:04:16. > :04:20.continue, and it will continue to damage the church, and that is bad

:04:20. > :04:25.for society, whether one is a member of the Church of England or

:04:25. > :04:32.not. Philip Hammond says it is it not for him to say, but this is a

:04:32. > :04:36.critical issue. The church itself says, or Rowan Williams does, that

:04:36. > :04:41.it was wilfully blind to the trend of modern society. Do you agree?

:04:41. > :04:44.I think it is terribly sad. The majority of people in the Church of

:04:44. > :04:47.England one there to be women bishops. I got a message from my

:04:47. > :04:52.local church saying they had messed up and that they would try and fix

:04:52. > :04:55.it. I think people feel very sad about this. A tiny minority have

:04:55. > :05:02.seized the agenda and of forcing their views on the majority of the

:05:02. > :05:07.Church of England, and listening to Rowan Williams speaking, you can

:05:07. > :05:10.sense his sadness, and I feel it as well. You say, Philip Hammond, it's

:05:10. > :05:15.not for you to decide in that sense, but what do you think it has JUN to

:05:15. > :05:19.the moral authority of the Church? Rowan Williams does not hold back

:05:19. > :05:23.when it comes to commenting on political issues. Do you think they

:05:23. > :05:27.have lost some moral authority because of this? I think they have.

:05:27. > :05:31.The main thing that undermines the moral authority of an organisation

:05:31. > :05:36.like the Church is when it doesn't have a clear, defined view that all

:05:36. > :05:40.its members can get behind. When there is an ongoing debate in any

:05:40. > :05:44.organisation, the same is true of a political party. If there is an

:05:44. > :05:48.ongoing debate about what an organisation stands for it is

:05:48. > :05:52.difficult to project a moral authority to those outside. I think

:05:52. > :05:55.it is clear what the Church of England stands for. The question is

:05:55. > :06:00.who should be the senior people preaching it in the church. Most

:06:00. > :06:03.people supported it. And also the main tenants of the Church, they

:06:03. > :06:07.all agree with those, it is a question of should women be bishops

:06:07. > :06:10.or not, and that is a question for the Church to resolve, but the

:06:10. > :06:15.irony is the majority of the Church wanted it but a minority have

:06:15. > :06:20.managed to take the agenda. thought the interesting thing was

:06:20. > :06:26.perhaps a lesson for politicians. It was the House of Laity that was

:06:26. > :06:31.more conservative with a small c than the bishops all clergy. We

:06:31. > :06:34.sometimes sense that in Parliament as well. Politicians are willing to

:06:34. > :06:39.move in a certain direction but have a sense that the Community,

:06:39. > :06:43.the electorate they represent, is less keen to move on things. What

:06:44. > :06:48.can Parliament do? And should it do anything? There was a suggestion

:06:48. > :06:52.from Chris Bryant to stop appointing bishops, or Frank Field

:06:52. > :06:58.threatened to introduce a motion from the church to be removed from

:06:58. > :07:01.equality legislation. Should Parliament be doing this? I don't

:07:01. > :07:06.think the Church as a real problem, but it is a problem for them to

:07:06. > :07:11.resolve. Then we have all been in organisations that have been faced

:07:11. > :07:14.with an impassive about how they go forward over the difficult issue.

:07:14. > :07:17.They will resolve it in time. It may take time, but they will

:07:17. > :07:22.resolve it. We have to support them to do that but we should not try

:07:22. > :07:26.and intervened and impose a solution. The Church of England is

:07:26. > :07:29.a strange vehicle. It is the established church, so if the

:07:29. > :07:33.Church of England leadership wants assistance from Parliament, we

:07:33. > :07:39.should listen, but we have to wait and see how they will resolve this.

:07:39. > :07:42.Clearly this will not do. Thank you both. The bloodshed continues in

:07:42. > :07:52.both Israel and Gaza. This morning there was an explosion on a bus in

:07:52. > :07:55.Tel Aviv. At least 10 people have been hurt but perhaps not seriously.

:07:55. > :08:01.Arab Media Reporting as much as the Western media that it was a

:08:01. > :08:04.terrorist attack. No one yet claiming that they did it.

:08:04. > :08:09.Overnight, Israeli jets attacked dozens of targets inside Gaza

:08:09. > :08:12.itself. Rockets are still being launched from there into Israel.

:08:12. > :08:15.The UN Secretary General, Ban Ki- Moon and US Secretary of State,

:08:15. > :08:21.Hillary Clinton, are out there trying to help the Egyptians broker

:08:21. > :08:24.a ceasefire. But there is no sign of one yet. Jo has the background.

:08:24. > :08:27.The killing in Gaza and in Israel has dominated the headlines and the

:08:27. > :08:30.television screens over the last week. The latest flare-up of

:08:30. > :08:32.violence started in September. Palestinian militant groups in Gaza

:08:32. > :08:39.increased cross-border rocket fire and Israel responded with air

:08:39. > :08:42.strikes. Israel says it holds the Hamas movement, which runs Gaza,

:08:42. > :08:48.responsible for all attacks emanating from there, even if it is

:08:48. > :08:50.other militant groups carrying them out. The violence escalated on 10th

:08:50. > :08:55.November after Palestinian militants fired an anti-tank

:08:55. > :08:58.missile at an Israeli jeep patrolling the Israel-Gaza border.

:08:58. > :09:01.On 14 November 2012, Israeli intelligence carried out a targeted

:09:01. > :09:05.air strike in Gaza City, killing a Hamas military commander as part of

:09:05. > :09:08.a wider series of air strikes. For the first time Palestinian

:09:08. > :09:15.militants have been able to reach as far as Tel Aviv, using Iranian-

:09:15. > :09:18.made missiles. The Israelis have responded deploying interceptor

:09:18. > :09:21.missiles and stepping up air strikes in what they are calling

:09:21. > :09:26.Operation Pillar of Defence. In the last week, the conflict has cost

:09:26. > :09:30.the lives of at least 138 Palestinians and five Israelis. The

:09:30. > :09:36.world now waits to see whether peace talks in Cairo will produce a

:09:36. > :09:42.ceasefire or whether Israel will initiate a ground invasion. Let's

:09:42. > :09:46.speak to the BBC's Gaza Correspondent. We have had those

:09:46. > :09:52.reports of the bomb attack on the bus in Tel Aviv. What will this do

:09:52. > :09:56.to chances of a ceasefire? It could be again changer. It's not just

:09:56. > :10:01.report, it has been confirmed. In the last 15 minutes we have had a

:10:01. > :10:04.massive response from Israel. I was on the roof of the office when

:10:04. > :10:11.seven or eight missiles piled into an area about a kilometre from

:10:11. > :10:14.where I'm sitting now. Huge explosions, massive plumes of smoke

:10:14. > :10:18.mushrooming into the sky. We understand they hit an area which

:10:18. > :10:23.is actually a football and athletics stadium, about one

:10:23. > :10:27.kilometre from where we are. So an immediate response from Israel to

:10:27. > :10:30.the bus bomb. Hamas has claimed responsibility and it has been

:10:30. > :10:37.broadcasting statements from the mosques saying that it managed to

:10:37. > :10:41.get one of the operatives to throw a bomb on to the bus. We heard the

:10:41. > :10:45.sound of celebratory gunfire in Gaza when it happened. Things feel

:10:45. > :10:49.like they could escalate dramatically. So no, violence is

:10:49. > :10:56.escalating. What about the chances of diplomacy in terms of Egypt

:10:56. > :10:59.being a key to a ceasefire? I think you are right, Egypt is the key. We

:10:59. > :11:03.have been told there will not be any ceasefire finalised until we

:11:03. > :11:07.hear the Egyptian President announced it. We thought it was

:11:07. > :11:16.close last night but it did not come. Then we had a massive Israeli

:11:16. > :11:21.attack overnight in Gaza with more than 100 hits. Israeli navy shells

:11:21. > :11:27.pounded Gaza for much of the late evening yesterday, and then there

:11:27. > :11:34.were more airstrikes overnight. When this all started and Hamas's

:11:34. > :11:38.top military commander was killed a week ago, Hamas said it might

:11:38. > :11:44.respond not just with rocket. Today it seems to have proved that it is

:11:44. > :11:50.able to do that, and you cannot stress how much the issue of bomb

:11:50. > :11:56.attacks on buses in Israel's biggest metropolis has on the

:11:56. > :12:00.Israeli Psyche. It could go if two ways. Israel may escalate its

:12:00. > :12:05.operation, and it does seem to have hit back quickly, or you could say

:12:05. > :12:12.that this is Hamas try to put pressure on Israel to say they need

:12:12. > :12:16.take us seriously and get a deal done. Thank you very much. Philip

:12:16. > :12:21.Hammond, what role has the British government played in trying to

:12:21. > :12:27.bring about the ceasefire? We are encouraging both sides to engage in

:12:27. > :12:33.a process of achieving a ceasefire so we can stop the bloodshed and,

:12:33. > :12:37.of course, it is a bit of a plaintive cry, but the age-old cry

:12:38. > :12:44.for progress towards 82 states solution, which is the only way of

:12:44. > :12:47.revolving -- resolving the problem in the long term. We know the

:12:47. > :12:53.Secretary General is out there, and Hillary Clinton is out there, one

:12:53. > :12:58.of her final acts as secretary and that in the illustration. Who do we

:12:58. > :13:02.have help -- helping? We don't have anyone in the ground in Gaza, but

:13:02. > :13:06.clearly we have diplomats on the ground. We do not have anyone else

:13:06. > :13:11.I'm aware of, but the Foreign Secretary has made it clear that we

:13:11. > :13:16.will encourage this process and encourage the Egyptians to act as

:13:16. > :13:21.brokers, as it were. Your correspondent talked about the

:13:21. > :13:25.symbolic significance of attacks on buses in Tel Aviv and, and the fact

:13:25. > :13:30.of this attack this morning will make it almost impossible for the

:13:30. > :13:34.Israeli leadership to engage in the ceasefire process. Whoever has done

:13:34. > :13:38.this has deliberately made it much harder to achieve a ceasefire today.

:13:38. > :13:43.We will see if that is how it pans out. Does the British government

:13:43. > :13:47.have a view on what the shape of a ceasefire should be? That is beyond

:13:47. > :13:54.the literal meaning of the words. Hamas should stop firing rockets

:13:54. > :13:59.into Israel. Israel should step back from any plans, ground attack.

:13:59. > :14:03.But do we have anything beyond the literal meaning? Then we need to

:14:03. > :14:08.get back to the Middle East peace process. We have a new American

:14:08. > :14:12.President. We have to take this opportunity again to reintegrate

:14:12. > :14:16.this process. The ceasefire will have to be fleshed out by more than

:14:16. > :14:20.that. It will require more commitments from the Israelis and

:14:20. > :14:26.further commitments from Hamas. Does the Labour Party have an idea

:14:26. > :14:32.of what the ceasefire should be shaped as? It is really important

:14:32. > :14:35.that the rocket stop being fired from Gaza. That is really

:14:35. > :14:39.important.Favour, I understand that, but how it should be shaped be on

:14:39. > :14:45.that? The Israelis won the shelling to stop, and Hamas and all the

:14:45. > :14:48.people in Gaza won the gates opened, and if they can be opened and trade

:14:48. > :14:52.and aid can going, we can close the tunnels, and then there will be

:14:52. > :14:55.some way of being able to do something. The Israelis invaded a

:14:55. > :15:05.few years ago in order to stop the rocket attacks. Clearly did not

:15:05. > :15:06.

:15:06. > :15:10.work and it has continued. There Right. But if the Israelis are to

:15:10. > :15:15.be asked to stop the blockade, which is what you are suggesting,

:15:15. > :15:19.what will Hamas give in return? They need to stop the shelling.

:15:19. > :15:23.That is not enough for Israel. Stopping the shelling will mean,

:15:23. > :15:27.the rockets, will mean that Israel will stop the shelling and call off

:15:27. > :15:30.the ground invasion. But Israel is not going to agree to taking away

:15:30. > :15:34.the blockade unless they get something watertight in return.

:15:34. > :15:39.What should that be? They are closing the gates and everything is

:15:39. > :15:42.coming through the tunnels. The stuff coming through the tunnels,

:15:42. > :15:47.that's not coming through at all. I heard a couple of giraffes came

:15:47. > :15:50.through the tunnels a couple of weeks ago. With respect, I've asked

:15:50. > :15:54.the Secretary of State and I haven't had an answer from him

:15:54. > :15:59.either, what should Israel demand or insist on return if the blockade

:15:59. > :16:03.is to be lifted either in total or partially? If the blockade is

:16:03. > :16:07.lifted, Toda or partially, then things will go through the gates

:16:07. > :16:12.and Israelis will be able to monitor what goes through. In what

:16:12. > :16:15.way? Because they go through the gates. You can't get anything

:16:16. > :16:20.through by sea. If the blockade is lifted, but Gaza Strip could take

:16:20. > :16:27.anything it wanted by sea. I ask again, because it's an important

:16:27. > :16:31.matter, the ceasefire is more than just a seizing of firing, but the

:16:31. > :16:36.quid pro quo be? It has to be that the fighting stops, that people

:16:36. > :16:46.calm, and we have to have... In the end, there has to be a political

:16:46. > :16:47.

:16:47. > :16:51.solution. Nothing has happened but two years. Be Israel, interesting

:16:51. > :16:57.words from the Secretary of State about the impact this terraced bus

:16:57. > :17:02.bomb may have, if Israel does decide that in its view there is no

:17:02. > :17:07.terms of the ground attack, in your view, would that be illegal under

:17:07. > :17:12.international law? I think that you can defend yourself but you have to

:17:12. > :17:16.do it in a proportion that way. History has shown us that if there

:17:16. > :17:20.is a ground attack, that hundreds of people died. That isn't what I

:17:20. > :17:24.ask you. I'm answering the question but you need to listen.

:17:24. > :17:27.listening and I don't hear an answer. As a Shadow Attorney

:17:27. > :17:31.General, do you believe they ground-attack would be illegal

:17:31. > :17:35.under international law? Your shadow Foreign Secretary has said

:17:35. > :17:38.that Israel should act in accordance with international law,

:17:38. > :17:42.so therefore would a ground attack be illegal under international law?

:17:42. > :17:46.A only if it was deemed and international law to be

:17:46. > :17:51.proportionate. History has shown us that when they had a ground attack

:17:51. > :17:58.before, hundreds of civilians died. The question then is, is that

:17:58. > :18:01.proportion it? Let me bring in Manuel Hassassian, he has been

:18:01. > :18:07.listening to this, he is the Palestinian ambassador to the UK,

:18:07. > :18:16.and also the former adviser to be former Israeli minister in Gaza,

:18:16. > :18:23.deal messing. Does the Palestinian Authority, based on the West Bank,

:18:23. > :18:27.do you have any authority at all in the Gaza Strip over Hamas?

:18:27. > :18:34.given the split that has taken place since 2007, the Palestinian

:18:34. > :18:43.National Authority does not have any control on the security of Gaza,

:18:43. > :18:47.it is in the hands of Hamas. What is your attitude towards... I know

:18:47. > :18:51.you condemn the Israeli attacks on Gaza, but can I ask you, and you

:18:51. > :18:57.obviously don't want a ground attack either, but what is your

:18:57. > :19:01.attitude towards the Hamas rocket attacks on Israel? Actually, we

:19:01. > :19:05.have to understand that these rocket attacks came as a result of

:19:05. > :19:13.air strikes, as a result of the blockade, as a result of

:19:13. > :19:17.humiliating the Palestinians. what is your attitude towards it?

:19:17. > :19:21.All of the killings, these were instigated... What is your attitude

:19:21. > :19:26.towards the rocket strikes, do you support Hamas in sending rockets

:19:26. > :19:31.into Israel or don't you? There is no support or not support. This is

:19:31. > :19:35.a situation where Palestinians of being killed, innocent Palestinians.

:19:35. > :19:39.We want total cessation of this violence. We need this truce to

:19:39. > :19:45.work out in order to salvage the situation and get the Israelis back

:19:45. > :19:50.on the negotiating table. Israel has obviously done a lot more

:19:50. > :19:55.damage to Gaza man Hamas has managed to do to Israel, so why

:19:55. > :20:00.don't you agree to a ceasefire now? The Israeli government was explicit

:20:00. > :20:03.in saying why it would... Going back to give the discussion you've

:20:03. > :20:08.had, I think it's unfortunate that the Palestinian ambassador birds

:20:08. > :20:10.not condemned by a ring of rockets towards civilians. I think it

:20:11. > :20:20.should be noted that Israel is doing everything in its power to

:20:21. > :20:22.

:20:22. > :20:26.avoid civilian casualties. To the question... Everything... Hamas is

:20:27. > :20:31.launching rockets every day on civilians. The term at

:20:32. > :20:35.proportionate retaliation by Israel, only yesterday one missile that had

:20:35. > :20:40.90 kilograms of explosives, hit an apartment building it one of

:20:40. > :20:46.Israel's biggest metropolis that. What is proportionate to this?

:20:46. > :20:52.Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties. Both sides can come on

:20:52. > :20:56.and you can trade these facts from your point of view. I'm trying to

:20:56. > :20:59.get a better understanding of what you are now prepared to do. If a

:21:00. > :21:04.ceasefire can be negotiated by Egypt with the help of the

:21:04. > :21:09.Americans and it stops the firing, what is the next stage? Hamas will

:21:09. > :21:16.want the blockade lifted, never mind the attacks on Gaza. What

:21:16. > :21:19.would Israel require in return for lifting the blockade? There are two

:21:19. > :21:25.things essential for not only the end of this cycle of violence but

:21:25. > :21:31.the Prevention of the next cycle of violence. One thing is, be complete

:21:31. > :21:38.cessation of firing from the Gaza Strip towards Israel. We have not

:21:38. > :21:43.initiated it. 120 missiles were fired towards Israel before that.

:21:43. > :21:48.And an end to the firing of shelling towards Israel. The second

:21:48. > :21:56.thing would be to create a mechanism that would prevent or at

:21:56. > :22:01.least minimise the rearmament of Hamas on the border between Egypt

:22:01. > :22:05.and Gaza. If there would be a mechanism, but now the Egyptians

:22:05. > :22:11.are respectfully trying to sort it out. If there would be a mechanism

:22:11. > :22:18.that would stop the rearmament of missiles to Gaza... This would end

:22:18. > :22:24.this violence and prevent further ones. Mr ambassador, is the PAC,

:22:24. > :22:28.are you prepared to help in the context of a ceasefire, are you

:22:28. > :22:34.prepared to help stopping further Rockets getting into Gaza? We are

:22:34. > :22:39.ready to help, and we are ready to stop the violence if Israel end its

:22:39. > :22:44.occupation. What do you mean by occupation? Your Israeli guest has

:22:44. > :22:48.forgotten that almost 1100 people have been injured and more than 140

:22:48. > :22:52.innocent Palestinians have been killed. The infrastructure in Gaza

:22:52. > :22:56.is being destroyed, journalists of being attacked. I understand that

:22:56. > :23:01.but I'm trying to move on from that. I'd be grateful if you could answer

:23:01. > :23:10.my question. What would you be prepared to do to stop the further

:23:10. > :23:13.rocket attacks getting into the Gaza Strip? Israel should stop its

:23:13. > :23:17.F-16s and Apaches in hitting innocent civilians and targets that

:23:17. > :23:20.have nothing to do with Hamas or the rockets. What's the answer to

:23:20. > :23:26.my question? We want to end its violence as soon as possible

:23:26. > :23:30.because we have higher stakes than the Israelis. All of these

:23:30. > :23:36.casualties or what, being under siege, and a blockade and being

:23:36. > :23:40.humiliated? Enough is enough. had enough, too, we've run out of

:23:40. > :23:45.time. When you listen to both of them, you realise how difficult it

:23:45. > :23:52.is. There is no attempt even to engage on the issues that need to

:23:52. > :23:56.be engaged on. You and I are just agreeing what many much greater

:23:56. > :24:00.statesman than as have discovered over the years. That this is one of

:24:00. > :24:04.the great intractable problems of our age. How to get this Middle

:24:04. > :24:09.East peace process, the two state solution which almost everybody

:24:09. > :24:15.agrees is an obvious way to go forward, how to turn that into a

:24:15. > :24:18.reality. The two states solution has been overtaken by the fact that

:24:18. > :24:22.the Palestinians are now deeply divided into the West Bank,

:24:22. > :24:26.represented by the ambassador from the Palestinian Authority, and

:24:26. > :24:30.Hamas... Hamas and the Palestinian authorities hate each other as much

:24:30. > :24:36.as they hate the Israelis. This is a very complex situation and there

:24:36. > :24:39.are other actors waiting in the wings. I'm sorry, I know that you

:24:39. > :24:43.are not going to like this but in the end there is no military

:24:43. > :24:47.solution. The fact that nothing has happened but two years just means

:24:47. > :24:51.we've screwed the lid down on a boiling pot and it is bound to keep

:24:51. > :24:56.erupting like this. The only solution in the end is for there to

:24:56. > :25:00.be a settlement. Without that, this problem will always continue.

:25:00. > :25:04.move on. In about 10 minutes it will be time for Prime Minister's

:25:04. > :25:07.Questions. Now that MPs are back at Westminster after a week off, to

:25:07. > :25:12.recharge their batteries, they really needed their batteries

:25:12. > :25:20.recharged. They'd been back all of five weeks! It's a tough job, isn't

:25:20. > :25:23.it? Yes. Ministers don't get the break. Soon after that, the Prime

:25:23. > :25:27.Minister will be jetting off to Brussels to take part in

:25:28. > :25:33.negotiations over the EU budget. He will need to recharge his batteries

:25:33. > :25:37.for that one! With any country able to veto the deal, he'd better look

:25:37. > :25:42.forward to quite a few late nights sessions as they try and hammer out

:25:42. > :25:52.a deal. Which bit of kit should he really be taking with him?

:25:52. > :25:55.Obviously it's a Daily Politics mug full of coffee. To get him through

:25:55. > :26:01.all of these all my tears, that would help. But if you don't win

:26:01. > :26:11.one, I'm afraid you can't take one. We will remind him now to enter,

:26:11. > :26:23.

:26:23. > :26:33.this is how you do it. First, when # But things ain't quite that

:26:33. > :26:45.

:26:45. > :26:50.There was no doubt in my mind that we will win the Cold War. Why do

:26:50. > :27:00.you say that? I think the general opinion in the world is turning in

:27:00. > :27:03.

:27:03. > :27:13.# You're So vain, you probably think this song is about to. --

:27:13. > :27:19.

:27:19. > :27:22.# People. All-day the Israelis have been

:27:22. > :27:32.pouring enforcement into the Golan Heights, where the original Syrian

:27:32. > :27:36.

:27:36. > :27:43.a strike is more than matched by To be in with a chance of winning,

:27:43. > :27:52.send your answer to our special quiz e-mail address. You can see

:27:52. > :27:56.the full terms and conditions on Let's take a look at Big Ben. It's

:27:56. > :28:01.nearly made date. Prime Minister's questions in a moment. Nick

:28:01. > :28:05.Robinson is with us now. A couple of weeks since PMQs. I can't make

:28:06. > :28:09.up my mind what I think they will go one. An obvious one would be to

:28:09. > :28:12.do the Budget, Ed Miliband talked about it. Although not obvious in

:28:12. > :28:18.the sense that both frontbenchers say they think the same thing about

:28:18. > :28:20.the Budget, so perhaps it wouldn't get anywhere. Another possibility,

:28:20. > :28:24.will the Leader of the opposition want to talk about what you've been

:28:24. > :28:27.talking about, Gaza? Not just because from time to time the

:28:27. > :28:30.leader of the opposition wants to say, this is the most important

:28:31. > :28:34.thing that's happening in the world, we should talk about it, but the

:28:34. > :28:39.Palestinian cause is very close to the hearts of many people in the

:28:40. > :28:43.Labour Party. I remember that Tony Blair got into more trouble, almost,

:28:43. > :28:46.by backing Israel during the Lebanon more war and he had bad

:28:46. > :28:49.back in America over the Iraq war. There was more anger when he was

:28:49. > :28:53.seen to give the green light to the bombing of they've moved. There

:28:53. > :28:57.will be many people in the Labour Party who are very uncomfortable

:28:57. > :29:01.about what's happening in Gaza. It may be that Ed Miliband chooses to

:29:01. > :29:07.voice that. And that set of borrowing figures out for October.

:29:07. > :29:10.The government now borrowing more money last month that it did in

:29:10. > :29:15.20th October 11. That is assuming that these figures that came out

:29:15. > :29:19.for the first time are accurate. I can't tell you how many discussions

:29:19. > :29:22.we've had in this studio based on figures that turned out not to be

:29:22. > :29:30.right. Particularly on growth. Borrowing forecasts have always

:29:30. > :29:35.been dreadful. The Treasury has a terrible record of the forecast. I

:29:35. > :29:40.don't know, you might think there would be that in the run-up to that

:29:40. > :29:45.important Autumn Statement. It's one of those days where there's no

:29:46. > :29:49.obvious news story for Ed Miliband. But there are a lot of markers he

:29:49. > :29:54.could put down. Finally, I predicted it last time I was on but

:29:54. > :30:00.I was wrong, all leaders of the opposition have a final mark if

:30:00. > :30:04.it's a quiet day, try and get this one running. There may be something

:30:04. > :30:08.on a cause dear to his heart, health, for example. You couldn't

:30:08. > :30:12.rely out energy prices. difficulty is rhetorically David

:30:12. > :30:15.Cameron would say to him, I've done what I said I would do. Labour and

:30:15. > :30:20.others are deeply sceptical about whether the words will mean what

:30:20. > :30:24.they say in practice. But it's not easy to prove it. Essentially, at

:30:24. > :30:34.this stage it is one man's word against another. It's not until BCB

:30:34. > :30:34.

:30:34. > :30:44.energy bills. That is the first time we will know. Europe forms the

:30:44. > :30:51.

:30:51. > :30:55.A whole House will wish to join me in sending our sympathies to the

:30:55. > :30:59.family of Captain Waugh to Barry. He was described as a fantastic and

:31:00. > :31:05.engaging soldier -- wall to Barry. Our nation must never forgive --

:31:05. > :31:07.forget his service or sacrifice. This morning I had meetings with

:31:07. > :31:14.ministerial colleagues and others and in addition to my duties in the

:31:14. > :31:17.house I will have more the meetings later today. Can I join the Prime

:31:17. > :31:21.Minister in paying tribute to captain Barry and all of our

:31:21. > :31:24.soldiers working in Afghanistan. In Stoke-on-Trent, libraries are

:31:24. > :31:32.closing, teachers are being laid off and youth clubs are shutting

:31:32. > :31:36.their doors. Given that public funds are so precious, Mr Speaker,

:31:36. > :31:41.does the Prime Minister think it was a good use of taxpayers' money

:31:42. > :31:47.to waste �100 million on the farcical police and crime

:31:47. > :31:51.Commissioner elections in November? I think it is good that right

:31:51. > :31:54.across the country we are now going to have local law and order

:31:54. > :32:00.champions who will stand up for the public and make sure we get a good

:32:00. > :32:04.deal from the police. I have noticed that Labour have two

:32:04. > :32:07.criticisms aren't Police and Crime Commissioners, on the one hand week

:32:07. > :32:10.spent too much money, and on the other we didn't spend enough money

:32:10. > :32:17.promoting it. I'm prepared to accept one criticism all the other,

:32:17. > :32:20.but not both. The British government borrowed from investors

:32:20. > :32:24.a record low levels saving taxpayers millions of pounds this

:32:24. > :32:28.week. Does he see this as more evidence that the economic plans

:32:28. > :32:32.are working? My Honourable Friend makes a good point that because of

:32:33. > :32:37.the fact we have a credible plan to get on top of debt and deficit and

:32:37. > :32:41.show how we will pay away in the world, we have record low interest

:32:41. > :32:50.rates which were described by the Shadow Chancellor as the key test

:32:50. > :32:56.of economic credibility. Mr Speaker, can I start by joining the Prime

:32:56. > :32:59.Minister in paying tribute to Captain Barry. He showed the utmost

:32:59. > :33:04.courage and bravery, and all our thoughts and condolences are with

:33:04. > :33:08.his family and friends. Can I also express my deep sorrow about the

:33:08. > :33:11.loss of life and suffering in Israel and Gaza in recent days,

:33:11. > :33:15.including the latest appalling terrorist attack on a bus in Tel

:33:15. > :33:19.Aviv. Mr Speaker, there is widespread support on all sides of

:33:19. > :33:24.the house for an immediate and durable ceasefire being agreed in

:33:24. > :33:27.Israel and Gaza. So will the Prime Minister set out, in his view, what

:33:27. > :33:32.are the remaining barriers to the ceasefire agreement now been

:33:32. > :33:34.reached? First of all, can I say how much I agree with the Right

:33:34. > :33:41.Honourable Gentleman about the appalling news of the terrorist

:33:41. > :33:44.attack on a bus in Tel Aviv. Can I also express our deep concern at

:33:44. > :33:48.the intolerable situation for people in southern Israel and the

:33:48. > :33:52.grave loss of life in Gaza. He asked specifically what more we can

:33:52. > :33:56.do to help bring the ceasefire about. I think that all of us,

:33:56. > :34:01.right across the European Union, including America and beyond, need

:34:01. > :34:05.to be putting pressure both on the Israeli Prime Minister than all of

:34:05. > :34:10.those that have contacts with Hamas to de escalate, to stop the

:34:10. > :34:14.fighting, to stop the bombing, and that is what I have done. I spoke

:34:14. > :34:17.twice to the Israeli Prime Minister over the weekend, wants to the

:34:17. > :34:20.President of Israel and my Right Honourable Friend the Foreign

:34:20. > :34:24.Secretary is working hard on this to persuade both sides that we need

:34:24. > :34:30.a ceasefire. Then beyond that, we need proper discussions about the

:34:30. > :34:32.future of Israel and Palestine. Speaker, I agree with the Prime

:34:32. > :34:37.Minister, and he is right to say that any such ceasefire deal can

:34:37. > :34:40.only be turned into permanent peace if there are meaningful

:34:40. > :34:45.presumptions of negotiations between the states about A2 state

:34:45. > :34:49.solution. This weekend as shown us that there is neither piece or a

:34:49. > :34:54.piece process. The reality is that the international community does

:34:54. > :34:57.bear some responsibility for the abject failure of having those

:34:57. > :35:04.meaningful negotiations nine years on from the promise of the road map

:35:04. > :35:08.to peace. Can he set out to the House what steps beyond the hoped-

:35:08. > :35:13.for ceasefire need to be taken to put pressure on both sides into

:35:13. > :35:18.kneeing -- meaningful negotiation? First of all let me agreed that we

:35:18. > :35:22.need we need a process put in place, and we need to do everything we can

:35:22. > :35:26.to persuade Barack Obama that this should be a leading priority for

:35:26. > :35:29.his presidential term. But I would make the point that whilst we all

:35:29. > :35:33.want the process and we all want this piece, in the end, peace can

:35:33. > :35:37.only come about by Israelis and Palestinians sitting down and

:35:37. > :35:42.talking through the final status issues. They have to discuss

:35:42. > :35:47.borders, Jerusalem, refugees. In the end, as Barack Obama is fond of

:35:47. > :35:54.saying, and by the degree, we cannot wanted more than they wanted.

:35:54. > :35:59.-- and I agree. We cannot want it more than they want it. We need

:35:59. > :36:04.them to talk through these final- status issues. But Mr Speaker, that

:36:04. > :36:07.is completely right, but we have to use every means at our disposal to

:36:07. > :36:10.pressure sides into those negotiations because the reality is

:36:10. > :36:15.that the confidence that they can be that state solution is dwindling

:36:15. > :36:23.month by month. There will be an opportunity to support the course

:36:23. > :36:26.of the 2up state solution later this month, recognising enhanced

:36:26. > :36:30.Observer priority. We have supported this because we think it

:36:30. > :36:33.will strengthen the moderate voices within the Palestinian to want to

:36:33. > :36:38.pursue the path of politics and not violence. Can I urge the Prime

:36:38. > :36:42.Minister to consider opting this position in the days ahead? First

:36:42. > :36:47.of all, let me greet with the first part of what he said, that

:36:47. > :36:49.confidence is dwindling -- let me agree. That is why there is such a

:36:49. > :36:54.sense of urgency amongst the international community. This could

:36:54. > :36:58.be the last chance for peace. The facts on the ground are changing.

:36:59. > :37:03.It is so much in Israel's interest to push for the solution that we

:37:03. > :37:08.should keep up the pressure. On the issue of a potential vote at the

:37:08. > :37:11.United Nations, it is our view, and the Foreign Secretary said this out

:37:11. > :37:15.yesterday, that the Palestinians should not take it to the un in the

:37:15. > :37:20.short term and we have urged them not to do that. If we do that, we

:37:20. > :37:24.have to consider the right way to vote. But in the end, we will not

:37:24. > :37:28.solve this problem at the United Nations. This problem will be sold

:37:28. > :37:32.by Israelis and Palestinians sitting down and negotiating and

:37:32. > :37:35.there may be dangers from pushing it too early at the un in terms of

:37:35. > :37:38.a cut-off of funds for the Palestinian Authority and all the

:37:38. > :37:42.other consequences that could follow. So in the end, let's get

:37:42. > :37:47.negotiations going rather than discussions at the United Nations.

:37:47. > :37:51.A if the Prime Minister wants to send a clear message that Scotland

:37:51. > :37:56.and England belong together. Should he not be doing his best to make

:37:56. > :38:01.sure that the principal road from London to Edinburgh is a modern

:38:01. > :38:05.dual-carriageway and doesn't become a country lane? My Right Honourable

:38:05. > :38:07.Friend makes a very attractive spending bid for the Autumn

:38:08. > :38:11.Statement, and whilst my Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor is

:38:11. > :38:17.not here, I'm sure of the Treasury colleagues will have listened

:38:17. > :38:21.closely. The Prime Minister claimed Universal Credit would bring about

:38:21. > :38:25.the most fundamental and radical change to the welfare system since

:38:25. > :38:30.it began. Given that the Government's propensity for

:38:30. > :38:37.shambles, can he guarantee that the second phase of Universal Credit

:38:37. > :38:40.will be implemented in 20th April 14 and not delayed? Universal

:38:40. > :38:42.Credit is a good Reform and I thought it was welcomed across the

:38:42. > :38:46.house because it was going to put in place proper work incentives for

:38:46. > :38:50.people at all levels of income and it is also highly progressive in

:38:50. > :38:55.channelling money to those who need it most. I can 10 look the

:38:55. > :39:04.Honourable Lady that it is on time and long credit -- on budget and it

:39:04. > :39:12.will have a pilot scheme starting Mr Speaker, the person responsible

:39:12. > :39:15.for the murder of Bheki Edwards in my constituency has not been

:39:15. > :39:19.brought to justice because incriminating evidence was excluded

:39:19. > :39:24.as part of a court process. Would my Right Honourable Friend join our

:39:24. > :39:28.calls for a thorough review of Code C of the Police and Criminal

:39:28. > :39:34.evidence Act so terrible situations like this don't happen if in

:39:34. > :39:38.future? Fire will look carefully at what my Honourable Friend has

:39:38. > :39:41.raised and the specific case -- I will look carefully. And also the

:39:41. > :39:44.Police and Criminal evidence Act. It is important that all

:39:44. > :39:54.information that can be put in front of a court is put in front of

:39:54. > :39:55.

:39:55. > :40:01.a court so it can reach the correct Cuts in frontline police together

:40:01. > :40:04.with cuts to police pensions and conditions of service has led to

:40:04. > :40:07.96% of the police force believing that this government does not

:40:07. > :40:12.support them. Does the Prime Minister think that is a problem,

:40:12. > :40:15.and if so what will he do about it? This government strongly supports

:40:15. > :40:20.the police service and what they do. These are people who go out every

:40:20. > :40:23.day and put their lives on the line to keep the rest of us say. Frankly,

:40:23. > :40:27.whoever was in government right now would have to be making cuts to

:40:27. > :40:31.police budgets. But if we look at what is happening in policing, we

:40:31. > :40:35.have seen a number of neighbourhood police going up. The percentage of

:40:35. > :40:39.police on the front line has gone up and we see the number of police

:40:39. > :40:46.in back-office roles going down. Crucially, crime is down and

:40:46. > :40:49.satisfaction with the police is up. So people don't have to wade

:40:49. > :40:52.through hundreds of bamboozling tariff plans, will Prime Minister

:40:52. > :40:56.confirm that this Government will legislate to ensure people can

:40:56. > :41:01.access the best deals, something the leader of opposition failed to

:41:01. > :41:05.do as energy secretary? I am delighted to tell my honourable

:41:05. > :41:08.friend that having stood at the Despatch Box and saying we wanted

:41:08. > :41:14.to ensure that people got access to the lowest tariffs, that is exactly

:41:14. > :41:17.what we have achieved. If there are colleagues opposite to have a doubt

:41:17. > :41:22.about this, let me quote the Labour shadow energy minister who said

:41:22. > :41:25.this about the change, it means some of the most expensive deals

:41:25. > :41:29.would go, being able to reduce the number of tariffs will help people

:41:29. > :41:38.get a clearer picture of what is happening, and that can only be a

:41:38. > :41:42.good thing. That is the sort of endorsement that I welcome.

:41:42. > :41:45.Speaker, the government promised that there should be no rationing

:41:46. > :41:50.in the NHS on grounds of cost alone. Can the Prime Minister tell us

:41:50. > :41:55.whether he has kept the promise? The promise we have kept is that we

:41:55. > :41:59.have said we would increase NHS spending every year under this

:41:59. > :42:04.government, and in England that is what is happening. In Wales, of

:42:04. > :42:09.course, there is a massive cut in the NHS because it is run by Labour.

:42:09. > :42:14.First of all, Mr Speaker, there are 7,000 fewer nurses in the NHS than

:42:14. > :42:18.when he came to power. But I was asking a very specific question

:42:18. > :42:21.about the promise made by the then Health Secretary, and I know you'd

:42:22. > :42:25.sacked him and he is now leader of the house, but he promised a year

:42:25. > :42:32.ago that there would be no rationing on the grounds of cost

:42:32. > :42:39.alone. This is what the President of the Royal are pathologists --

:42:39. > :42:43.ophthalmologists said. He said this: primary care trusts are not

:42:43. > :42:48.following a government guidelines. Half of health commissioners are

:42:48. > :42:53.restricting access to cataract surgery. I don't think you should

:42:53. > :42:57.ask for help, you got rid of him from the post. Can the Prime

:42:57. > :43:03.Minister tell me why, for the first time in six years, the number of

:43:03. > :43:06.cataract operations actually fell last year? What I can tell him is

:43:06. > :43:11.that under this government the number of doctors is up, the number

:43:11. > :43:15.of operations is up, waiting times are down, that is what is happening

:43:15. > :43:19.because we took the responsible decision. He quotes Primary Care

:43:19. > :43:23.trusts. Of course, we are abolishing Primary Care trusts and

:43:23. > :43:26.putting that money in the frontline services. That is what is happening

:43:26. > :43:30.under this government. They believe, he believes, that increasing

:43:30. > :43:37.spending on the NHS is irresponsible. We think it is the

:43:37. > :43:42.right thing to do. Mr Speaker, once again, he has no clue about the

:43:42. > :43:46.detail. He has no idea what is actually happening on the ground.

:43:46. > :43:56.Give him credit, Mr Speaker, he did make history this week. He has got

:43:56. > :43:58.

:43:58. > :44:02.his very own word in the Oxford English Omnishambles. He is basted

:44:02. > :44:06.-- wasted millions of pounds on a top down reorganisation that nobody

:44:06. > :44:11.wanted or voted for. Just like he wasted millions of pounds on Police

:44:11. > :44:18.Commissioner elections. He doesn't listen, he's out of touch, and last

:44:18. > :44:28.Thursday the people of Corby spoke for the country. Last Thursday the

:44:28. > :44:37.

:44:37. > :44:40.people of Humberside spoke of a There is more. Because the former

:44:40. > :44:44.Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, said this. This is not

:44:44. > :44:48.just about the police. This is a referendum on everything this

:44:48. > :44:54.Government has done - on health, education, the local authorities.

:44:54. > :44:57.People took the first opportunity to kick him out. On the subject of

:44:57. > :45:04.making history this week, I think the leader of the Labour Party made

:45:04. > :45:07.some history this week. He told his conference he wanted to be Disraeli,

:45:07. > :45:12.he told them he wanted to be Margaret Thatcher. He said on

:45:12. > :45:17.Europe, he's more eurosceptic than Bill Cash. Then he went to the CBI

:45:17. > :45:20.and said he loved Europe even more than Tony Blair. He has

:45:20. > :45:30.impersonated more politicians than Rory Bremner. But this time the

:45:30. > :45:36.

:45:36. > :45:39.Thank you, Mr Speaker. Does my right honourable friend, the Prime

:45:39. > :45:45.Minister, agree with me that a free press is one of the cornerstones of

:45:45. > :45:50.a true democracy, and that any attempt to muzzle newspapers, such

:45:50. > :45:57.as the excellent Kent Messenger Group in my own constituency,

:45:57. > :46:02.should be strenuously resisted? Honourable Friend makes an

:46:02. > :46:05.important point. I joined him in my admiration for the Kent Messenger

:46:05. > :46:09.Group and all they do. It is important because the problems we

:46:09. > :46:15.have had in our newspaper industry have not really been about regional

:46:15. > :46:20.and local titles that perform an incredibly important function in

:46:20. > :46:23.our democratic system. I think we all have to wait for the Leveson

:46:23. > :46:30.inquiry report and study that carefully and then respond to what

:46:30. > :46:33.he said. Allow me to present a tale of two companies. The first is a

:46:34. > :46:40.comic company in my constituency who pays seven people and pays

:46:40. > :46:45.every penny of tax on time. Amazon UK brings in revenue of up to �4.5

:46:45. > :46:49.billion and yet last year paid less than �1 million in tax. Will the

:46:49. > :46:53.Prime Minister follow the example of the French government, which has

:46:53. > :46:58.issued a back claim for unpaid tax against Amazon, or will he allow us

:46:58. > :47:02.to draw our own conclusions about whose side he is on? I think that

:47:02. > :47:07.is an important point about making sure that companies make their

:47:07. > :47:10.contributions and tax payments in our country. We have put an extra

:47:10. > :47:15.�900 million specifically into the Inland Revenue to try and make sure

:47:15. > :47:19.that we do probably get individuals and companies to pay their taxes. I

:47:19. > :47:25.announced yesterday that one of the key priorities of the G8, which I

:47:25. > :47:28.will be chairing from January, in County Fermanagh in Northern

:47:28. > :47:31.Ireland in June next year, one of the priorities will be to make sure

:47:31. > :47:36.we get proper international agreements so that companies pay

:47:36. > :47:39.their taxes properly. Could I highlight to my right honourable

:47:39. > :47:43.friend a free school which is opening in Wolverhampton this year?

:47:43. > :47:47.This will be in one of the most deprived wards of Wolverhampton and

:47:47. > :47:50.will provide a re-electable social mobility for young people. It is a

:47:50. > :47:53.tangible advert for what this government is doing in terms of

:47:53. > :47:59.education, and he's more than welcome to visit. That's a very

:47:59. > :48:02.kind invitation. I held a recent meeting at Number 10 for all of the

:48:02. > :48:05.78 free schools that have been established over the last two-and-

:48:05. > :48:09.a-half years. We are making good progress. I want to see many

:48:09. > :48:13.hundreds of free schools established between now and the

:48:13. > :48:17.next election. Whereas the last government managed 200 academies in

:48:17. > :48:21.13 years, we've done 2000 in two- and-a-half years. Academies, pre-

:48:21. > :48:28.schools, we want to give this agenda the biggest possible boost

:48:28. > :48:30.we can. Question number seven, closed question. I look forward to

:48:30. > :48:38.visiting Scotland soon and will obviously look carefully at whether

:48:38. > :48:42.I can visit the Honourable Gentleman's constituency. A few

:48:42. > :48:46.months ago he came to my constituency and was going to give

:48:46. > :48:49.me the opportunity of taking him around. One of the areas I was

:48:49. > :48:53.going to take him to was the shipyard, where I had my

:48:53. > :48:58.apprenticeship as do many years ago, he would probably have been in

:48:58. > :49:02.short trousers. But outside the door of that shipyard on a Thursday

:49:02. > :49:07.was a man called the tally man, who was a loan shark. He charged half a

:49:07. > :49:13.crown, which is 12 and a half pence, a week per pound for the loan he

:49:13. > :49:20.would give the shipyard worker. Today we are hearing all about...

:49:20. > :49:24.Can we have a question? Now. question is, you hold one of the

:49:24. > :49:29.great offices of the state, so does the Prime Minister. What is he

:49:29. > :49:34.personally going to do to drive these sharks out of our economies?

:49:34. > :49:37.I did enjoy my visit to true love. I may be offered to the Honourable

:49:37. > :49:43.Gentleman then that I would happily share a platform with him to defend

:49:43. > :49:47.our United Kingdom. For some reason the invitation got lost in the post.

:49:47. > :49:53.I make the offer again. He makes a serious point about pay-day loans.

:49:53. > :49:56.We have seen the OFT report, which is a preliminary report. I think we

:49:56. > :50:00.do need to take action. That is why we are giving the Office of Fair

:50:00. > :50:03.Trading a new power to suspend a consumer credit licence with

:50:03. > :50:07.immediate effect where there is an urgent need to protect consumers.

:50:07. > :50:14.The OFT report shows many companies are not sticking to the guidelines

:50:14. > :50:19.set out and that is not acceptable. Has he seen the recent experience

:50:19. > :50:23.study which showed that Milton Keynes is the area of the UK best

:50:23. > :50:27.placed to lead economic growth, with forecasts of 3.1 % in the next

:50:27. > :50:32.year? My Honourable Friend is a great spokesman for Milton Keynes

:50:32. > :50:37.and has welcomed me them many times. It does have a successful economy

:50:37. > :50:39.based largely on small and medium- sized enterprises. One of the

:50:40. > :50:43.things we need to change in Milton Keynes and elsewhere is to get the

:50:43. > :50:50.housing market moving again. I'm convinced that is an important part

:50:50. > :50:56.of driving recovery in our economy. Many young apprentices receive very

:50:56. > :50:59.low wages. The youngest only �2.60 per hour. So is it fair for the

:50:59. > :51:02.Prime Minister to take away housing benefit from young people who

:51:02. > :51:08.simply cannot live with their parents but are trying really hard

:51:08. > :51:12.to build a future for themselves? This government strongly supports

:51:12. > :51:15.the growth of apprenticeships. We've seen something like 1 million

:51:15. > :51:19.new apprenticeships under this government. On the issue of housing

:51:19. > :51:21.benefit, which I know is an important issue, I think where

:51:21. > :51:25.there is a problem, and this is something that needs proper

:51:25. > :51:28.attention, is we do seem to give some young people a choice today

:51:28. > :51:32.which is if you are on jobseeker's allowance you can have access to

:51:32. > :51:36.housing benefit, whereas if you are living at home and trying to work

:51:36. > :51:39.you can't. We need to recognise that the signals we sent through

:51:39. > :51:45.our welfare system are in many cases sending a negative signal to

:51:45. > :51:50.young people. Is it still the Prime Minister's intention that this

:51:50. > :51:54.should be the greenest government ever? Yes, it is. It is this

:51:54. > :52:00.government that in record time has established a green investment bank

:52:00. > :52:04.which is now in Edinburgh and starting to make loans. I'm sure

:52:04. > :52:06.the Prime Minister agrees with me that a government spokesman

:52:06. > :52:11.describing the children's Commissioner's report into child

:52:11. > :52:14.abuse today as hysterical is extremely unhelpful. Victims of

:52:15. > :52:19.abuse already find it difficult to come forward, including those who

:52:19. > :52:23.were reduced by Cyril Smith in Rochdale. On that issue, will the

:52:23. > :52:27.Prime Minister now help these victims by publishing all the

:52:27. > :52:34.police files on that Smith and ensure a police investigation takes

:52:34. > :52:37.place into all the allegations and into any cover-up? On the first.

:52:37. > :52:41.Barbara, it's a very serious issue that is being examined. It is an

:52:41. > :52:46.interim report that we need to study closely. It has some

:52:46. > :52:49.extremely disturbing findings. We need to give every encouragement to

:52:49. > :52:54.the commissioner, to make sure that the final version of the report is

:52:54. > :52:59.produced. On the specific issue he raises, which is a very serious

:52:59. > :53:02.allegation about a former member of this House, I understand that

:53:02. > :53:06.Greater Manchester police have confirmed they will investigate any

:53:06. > :53:11.allegations of sexual abuse involving the late Sir Cyril Smith,

:53:11. > :53:14.that happened from 1974 onwards. I would say to all members of this

:53:14. > :53:18.house, particularly in the light of what has happened in the last few

:53:18. > :53:27.weeks, if anyone has information and facts, then take them to the

:53:27. > :53:32.police. That is the way we should Businesses are helping to cut the

:53:32. > :53:35.borrowing deficit by paying tax on their profits, but some

:53:35. > :53:40.multinationals appear to be paying very low amounts of UK corporate

:53:40. > :53:44.tax, like Starbucks and Amazon. I wonder if the Prime Minister could

:53:44. > :53:48.tell the House whether he thinks this part of the tax code needs

:53:48. > :53:53.investigating? I think it does. I've asked the Treasury to do that.

:53:53. > :53:57.They are looking as hard as they can at what can be done. There are

:53:57. > :54:01.clearly some things that one can do nationally. But because we live in

:54:01. > :54:05.a competitive, global economy where companies can move capital around,

:54:05. > :54:09.move their headquarters around, move money around, you do need

:54:09. > :54:12.greater international agreements. We come to an important national

:54:12. > :54:16.agreement with Switzerland, which is going to recover billions of

:54:16. > :54:20.pounds in tax for our country, but we need to work hard, and that is

:54:20. > :54:24.where the G8 can help, to make sure we get a fair share of tax from

:54:24. > :54:29.companies, particularly given the fact that Britain is doing its part

:54:29. > :54:33.to cut rates of tax down to the most competitive in the world.

:54:33. > :54:37.Prime Minister quite rightly praised the wonderful work of

:54:37. > :54:40.London's emergency services during the Olympics, Paralympics and Her

:54:40. > :54:43.Majesty's Jubilee. Does he share with me the concern of the London

:54:43. > :54:48.public that the numbers of fire stations that are threatened with

:54:48. > :54:51.closure, in particular the one in Clapham old town in my constituency,

:54:51. > :54:54.and would he joined the campaign to save it and would he also agree

:54:54. > :55:00.that it's not right to choose a fire station to close it, simply

:55:00. > :55:04.because it is on very expensive land? This is an issue for the

:55:04. > :55:08.berne macro as well as for the government. I will look closely at

:55:08. > :55:11.what she says. We all have to recognise that the most important

:55:11. > :55:16.thing in terms of the emergency services is the time it takes for

:55:16. > :55:20.them to get to an incident. While all of us as constituency MPs on

:55:20. > :55:24.naturally focused on the bricks and mortar items of whether it is

:55:24. > :55:28.ambulance stations or fire stations or indeed other facilities, what

:55:28. > :55:34.really matters for our constituents is how quickly do the emergency

:55:34. > :55:39.services get them and how good is the service when they do? Does my

:55:39. > :55:44.right honourable friend share my deep disappointment, and I know

:55:44. > :55:52.that of many on all sides, that yesterday the Church of England

:55:52. > :55:55.failed to make proper provision for women bishops? A sad day for our

:55:55. > :56:00.national Church and our national character, particularly given that

:56:00. > :56:05.42 out of 44 diocese had voted overwhelmingly in support of women

:56:05. > :56:08.bishops. And it's not the consequence of the Bolt, not the

:56:08. > :56:14.danger of the Church of England being in some disestablishment, but

:56:14. > :56:18.simply does interest. I think my right honourable friend speaks with

:56:19. > :56:22.great expertise and knowledge. On a personal basis, I'm a strong

:56:22. > :56:26.supporter of women bishops and I'm very sad about the way it went

:56:26. > :56:29.yesterday. I'm particularly sad for the Archbishop of Canterbury,

:56:29. > :56:33.because he saw this as a major campaign that he wanted to achieve

:56:33. > :56:37.at the end of his excellent tenure of that office. It's important for

:56:37. > :56:43.the Church of England to be a modern church in touch with society,

:56:43. > :56:47.as it is today, and this was a key step they needed to take. The Prime

:56:47. > :56:52.Minister promised that his start-up loan scheme would provide 2500

:56:52. > :56:55.loans to young entrepreneurs to get their business ideas off the ground.

:56:55. > :56:59.Only 43 loans have been granted. Why hasn't he delivered on his

:56:59. > :57:03.promise? The start-up loans Initiative is a very strong one. I

:57:03. > :57:08.want to look at putting more resources into it because I think

:57:09. > :57:10.there is a major demand for it. At the same time, there is the

:57:10. > :57:14.Enterprise Allowance Scheme that originally was only available after

:57:14. > :57:17.people had been unemployed for three months. Under this government

:57:17. > :57:22.is going to be available from the first day of being unemployed.

:57:22. > :57:25.Looking back to the 1980s, many people used the scheme to start up

:57:25. > :57:33.their first business, their first rung on the ladder. Those are the

:57:33. > :57:37.sorts of people we want to help. Angela Watkinson. Would the Prime

:57:37. > :57:41.Minister join me in congratulating Draper's Academy in the most

:57:41. > :57:45.deprived ward in my constituency, sponsored by the Drapers Company

:57:45. > :57:49.and Queen Mary College London, in only its second year it has become

:57:49. > :57:55.the fastest improving school in the whole country and is a wonderful

:57:55. > :57:58.example of the government's academy scheme. I certainly join her. I

:57:58. > :58:04.think one of the strengths of the Academy programme is getting

:58:04. > :58:07.sponsors like the Drapers Company, like businesses and other

:58:07. > :58:11.organisations to get behind the school and help change the culture

:58:11. > :58:16.and help improve it. That is why last week we set a new target for

:58:16. > :58:20.academies taking over failing primary schools. We think academies

:58:20. > :58:22.shouldn't be restricted to secondary schools. We want to see

:58:22. > :58:27.sponsored academies taking over primary schools where results

:58:27. > :58:30.aren't good enough. Everyone can focus on there are schools in some

:58:30. > :58:34.inner-city areas that because of effective Academy sponsors are

:58:34. > :58:38.doing better than schools in some of the leafy suburbs. We could use

:58:38. > :58:43.this change to drive at aspiration and achievement across our

:58:43. > :58:47.education system. Following his answer to the Honourable Member for

:58:47. > :58:50.Banbury, given that the Church of England is the established Church,

:58:50. > :58:54.would he consider what this Parliament can do to ensure that

:58:54. > :59:01.the overwhelming will of members of the Church of England and of this

:59:01. > :59:07.country is respected? I will look carefully at what he says. But what

:59:07. > :59:11.I would say is the Church has its own processes and elections, hard

:59:11. > :59:14.for some of us to understand. We have to respect individual

:59:14. > :59:18.institutions and the decisions they make. But it doesn't mean we should

:59:18. > :59:21.hold back and saying what we think. I'm clear that time is right for

:59:22. > :59:25.women bishops, it was right many years ago. They need to get on with

:59:25. > :59:29.it and get with the programme. But you do have to respect the

:59:29. > :59:38.individual institutions and the way they work, while giving them a shop

:59:38. > :59:44.abroad. A cut in this country's EU budget rebate, which was agreed to

:59:44. > :59:49.buy the last Labour government, is now costing taxpayers �2 billion

:59:49. > :59:54.every single year. Will the Prime Minister please confirm that in the

:59:54. > :00:00.forthcoming budget negotiations, he will not agree to any further

:00:00. > :00:04.reduction in this rebate? I can certainly give that assurance. The

:00:04. > :00:08.rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher is an incredibly important

:00:08. > :00:12.part of Britain's position in Europe, and making sure we get a

:00:12. > :00:17.fair deal. It is extraordinary that the last government gave away

:00:17. > :00:21.almost half of that rebate. We've never heard one word of apology or

:00:21. > :00:25.regret for the fact that however hard we fight in Europe, and we are

:00:25. > :00:34.fighting incredibly hard this week for a good deal, they cut away our

:00:34. > :00:38.feet by giving away half the rebate. Could I congratulate the Prime

:00:38. > :00:43.Minister on his very wise decision to bring the G8 summit to County

:00:43. > :00:47.Fermanagh? Could I confirm to the Prime Minister that the enthusiasm

:00:47. > :00:52.with which that decision has been received with in the manner, but

:00:52. > :00:56.could I ask him that he believes it would be possible to bring further

:00:56. > :01:00.prestigious events to Northern Ireland in future? I will look at

:01:00. > :01:08.that. I believed it really is the right decision for the G8 to be

:01:08. > :01:10.based in Northern Ireland in June. What was interesting yesterday,

:01:10. > :01:14.standing with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in

:01:14. > :01:17.Northern Ireland, talking about the situation, something that would be

:01:17. > :01:22.unthinkable 20 years ago, to have that sort of event with so many

:01:22. > :01:25.world leaders coming to Northern Ireland. I think it will be a great

:01:25. > :01:30.adverse -- advertisement for Northern Ireland and for everything

:01:30. > :01:33.that people in Northern Ireland at -- can achieve. Does the Prime

:01:33. > :01:40.Minister agree that the UK' retention of its triple-A status

:01:40. > :01:43.when France lost its this week, shows that the UK retains the

:01:43. > :01:47.confidence of international markets because of the difficult but

:01:47. > :01:51.necessary decisions that we are taking? That's a good. Barbara,

:01:51. > :01:56.which is because we have set out a clear plan, we are able to have low

:01:56. > :02:06.interest rates, able to have international confidence, which is

:02:06. > :02:08.

:02:08. > :02:16.the absolute of the proper growth A rather subdued Prime Minister's

:02:16. > :02:21.Questions to date. -- today. Ed Miliband divided his six questions

:02:21. > :02:29.he is allowed. He divided them into two. The first part was on the

:02:29. > :02:35.situation in Gaza. There is largely frontbench consensus on that. Then

:02:35. > :02:39.he came back and ask some questions on the NHS, which Martha -- rather

:02:39. > :02:43.surprised us in the studio. It is not an issue which is on the agenda

:02:43. > :02:49.this week. Dog that didn't bark until the question at the very end

:02:49. > :02:59.was the upcoming Brussels summit on the European budget and prisoners

:02:59. > :03:09.

:03:09. > :03:18.There seems to be more inquiries about what happened then than there

:03:18. > :03:22.is today. There wasn't really a clear threat will way through the

:03:22. > :03:26.Israeli Palestinians. Mr Cameron must wish he should go on a foreign

:03:26. > :03:32.trip every Wednesday after his awful performance at the Despatch

:03:32. > :03:36.Box, says one commentator. Mr Miliband wrong-footed the Prime

:03:36. > :03:39.Minister with clever questions on the Palestinian issue. Never buy

:03:39. > :03:43.Roberto beneath -- never mind Roberto Di Matteo, Ed Miliband is

:03:43. > :03:50.not worthy of leading his team. So much ammo he could have fired, but

:03:50. > :03:53.he came up with wishy-washy questions. A feeble performance. Jo

:03:53. > :03:57.Moore in the Netherlands says David Cameron is grabbing at straws when

:03:57. > :04:00.he has to refer to John Prescott failure to win in Humberside.

:04:00. > :04:04.Surely an average of 50% of people voting does not give the Prime

:04:04. > :04:07.Minister any right to boast, after all it was his brainchild to have

:04:07. > :04:11.the elections. Martin Bristow from Wolverhampton. How does Labour get

:04:11. > :04:17.away with the charge that they would be spending less on the NHS

:04:17. > :04:22.than the government is now? David Cameron annihilated Ed Miliband. Mr

:04:22. > :04:25.Austin in London says David Cameron said there would be lower bills for

:04:25. > :04:30.consumers, but experts say there is likely to be a levelling process

:04:30. > :04:38.that will result in this -- new, so-called low tariff costing more

:04:38. > :04:43.than the current one. This is the risk, as some people see it. Before

:04:43. > :04:49.I bring in the panel, let me show you the latest pictures from Gaza.

:04:49. > :04:53.They were taken within the last hour or so. A series of explosions.

:04:53. > :04:58.The level of violence there does not really appear to be coming down

:04:58. > :05:06.on either side. Very serious explosions in the centre of an

:05:06. > :05:10.urban area in Gaza. Still no word yet on any ceasefire, as these

:05:10. > :05:18.pictures clearly illustrate. And if you're just joining us there has

:05:18. > :05:23.been a terrorist attack on a bus in Tel Aviv this morning. About 17

:05:23. > :05:29.people injured, but it seems none seemed to have two serious injuries,

:05:29. > :05:36.fortunately. No fatalities, anyway. It is strange to go on the NHS in a

:05:36. > :05:41.way, given that we have a Brussels budget that will dominate the news.

:05:41. > :05:45.As you saw, David Cameron was prepared to tease Ed Miliband with

:05:46. > :05:51.the elaborate joke about whether he is Disraeli or Margaret Thatcher.

:05:51. > :05:55.That is because Ed Miliband went to the CBI and said he would stand up

:05:55. > :05:58.for Britain staying in Europe, but a couple of weeks ago he voted with

:05:58. > :06:01.the hardline Euro-sceptics in the Conservative Party to embarrass and

:06:01. > :06:04.defeat the government on the EU budget. You can make a case that

:06:04. > :06:08.both are consistent, but the reason he did not go was because he knew

:06:08. > :06:12.that David Cameron would be waiting for him on that. Therefore he has

:06:12. > :06:17.taken a study done by the Royal College of ophthalmologists and

:06:17. > :06:20.said that there was evidence that the first Labour had made about the

:06:20. > :06:25.NHS budgets has a real impact. In other words, people are being

:06:25. > :06:28.denied operations they ought to have, cataract operations.

:06:28. > :06:32.Sometimes in Prime Minister's Questions, viewers don't see this

:06:32. > :06:35.way, but they are about putting down markers, not just getting a

:06:35. > :06:40.victory on the day all raising morale. They are about putting a

:06:40. > :06:44.marker down, asking a question to refer back to. And you can put

:06:44. > :06:51.something on the agenda as well. It may not ignite, but it could be a

:06:51. > :06:54.slow burner. One Gaza, some of the things were the same, but there was

:06:54. > :06:59.a difference. Ed Miliband was saying that Labour would support

:06:59. > :07:03.the Palestinian Authority, going into the United Nations and

:07:03. > :07:06.applying for statehood. Remember the Palestinians are not officially

:07:06. > :07:10.recognised as a state. This would be seen by Israel as a deeply

:07:10. > :07:13.provocative act and it would be likely to be vetoed by the United

:07:13. > :07:23.States. Up until now, the British government have not so they are

:07:23. > :07:26.against, they said they would not if I were you. What they are asking

:07:26. > :07:31.for is enhanced observer status. The Palestinians themselves have a

:07:31. > :07:36.problem with the state because of it is the P A that go there, it

:07:36. > :07:43.won't include Hamas and Gaza. And what about the boundaries of the

:07:43. > :07:48.state? What about the 400,000 settlements. The underlying thought

:07:48. > :07:52.was they should get President Obama involved, but not the slightest

:07:52. > :07:56.sign he wants to get involved, not least advised by his outgoing

:07:56. > :08:04.Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. She won't be there long, but she

:08:04. > :08:09.realised when her husband was president, Sheikh found no deal was

:08:09. > :08:15.done -- she put in at a lot of work and found no deal was done. We will

:08:15. > :08:18.put all this energy in and you get nowhere. There is a huge symbolism

:08:18. > :08:21.that has not dawned on London that this is the first president who,

:08:21. > :08:26.after winning an election or getting re-elected, chose to go to

:08:26. > :08:30.south-east Asia. Because this is the Pacific President, that is the

:08:30. > :08:36.whole thrust of the second term, the sources in Washington Tel-Me

:08:36. > :08:40.will be to face to the Pacific. He visited Thailand, Cambodia and

:08:40. > :08:48.Burma. And Burma, for special reasons, but all three have borders

:08:48. > :08:52.with China. There was a huge announcement, largely ignored here

:08:52. > :08:57.in London, that the Secretary of State for Defence in the Pentagon

:08:57. > :09:02.has announced that from now on 60% of US naval assets and will be in

:09:03. > :09:07.the Pacific. 40% will be elsewhere, including the Atlantic, instead of

:09:07. > :09:12.50/50. Whether we like it or not, this is a superpower Batty's

:09:13. > :09:16.repositioning its focus. -- Batty's repositioning. I think that's right.

:09:16. > :09:23.The US has responded to the strategic challenge posed by China,

:09:23. > :09:25.and the fact, whether we like it or not, that the Loat -- most likely

:09:25. > :09:29.flashpoint for any confrontation involving China and its neighbours

:09:29. > :09:36.in the coming decades is likely to be in the South China Sea where

:09:36. > :09:42.there are scores of disputed islands and areas. I think we

:09:42. > :09:47.should be positive about this. The fact that the US is willing to rise

:09:47. > :09:53.to this strategic challenge is something that NATO should

:09:53. > :09:56.celebrate. It means we in European NATO have to do more in our own

:09:56. > :10:00.defence and near abroad, which includes North Africa and the

:10:00. > :10:05.Middle East. We would not be able to respond to the strategic

:10:05. > :10:12.challenge posed by China if China had chosen not to do that. This is

:10:12. > :10:15.a sensible division of labour, as it were, among the NATO alliance. I

:10:15. > :10:19.do not know if this is being discussed at the MoD, but if it

:10:19. > :10:23.looks as though Gaza is not containable. In other words, it is

:10:23. > :10:28.drawing in and possibly over spilling into the Syrian conflict,

:10:28. > :10:32.then it becomes a strategic threat to the United States. In no longer

:10:32. > :10:40.stays as another flashpoint in this long-running regional problem, it

:10:40. > :10:43.becomes something more serious. have to see the Israeli and Gaza

:10:43. > :10:49.problem in the context of a wider Middle East. There is the

:10:49. > :10:53.continuing stand-off with a ramp, the chaos in Syria -- Iran, and the

:10:53. > :10:57.chaos in Syria. I think that the United States will believe it

:10:57. > :11:02.always has a sufficient strategic leverage with his rare to prevent

:11:02. > :11:05.Israel from doing something -- Israel to prevent them from doing

:11:05. > :11:12.something that leads to a strategic disadvantage. It does have pretty

:11:12. > :11:15.strong leaders in terms of Israel. It I hear what you say. I think

:11:15. > :11:19.there are a lot of people, a lot of European friends of America who

:11:19. > :11:23.wish the Americans would focus on the Israel and Palestine conflict

:11:23. > :11:27.again. I hear what you say about Barack Obama having other things to

:11:28. > :11:32.do, but we should be saying loud and clear, please get involved in

:11:33. > :11:40.this and usual authority. He shows no inclination to do so.

:11:40. > :11:44.understand that, but isn't European of friends need to tell him. Today

:11:44. > :11:47.-- today, he gets only 10% of imported oil from the Middle East,

:11:47. > :11:51.the US. By the time Barack Obama leaves the White House he will get

:11:51. > :12:01.no oil from the Middle East. It changes America's geopolitical

:12:01. > :12:05.focus. The Attorney General has refused to intervene in the case of

:12:05. > :12:08.an SAS soldier jailed for 18 months for possessing a pistol he said was

:12:08. > :12:10.given to him as a "gift" after service in Iraq. Last night,

:12:10. > :12:13.Sergeant Danny Nightingale's wife handed in a petition to Downing

:12:13. > :12:15.Street. Her husband pleaded guilty to the offence, but claims he

:12:15. > :12:17.suffered medical problems affecting his memory, and didn't remember

:12:17. > :12:26.having the weapon. Our Defence Correspondent, Jonathan Beale,

:12:26. > :12:33.joins us. The thank you for coming onto the programme. Where does the

:12:33. > :12:37.sergeants case now rest as we speak today? As I understand it, this

:12:37. > :12:42.afternoon his wife and his lawyers will be lodging the appeal at the

:12:42. > :12:48.High Court. They want the sentence quashed, and they want him out on

:12:48. > :12:52.bail. They say he was essentially forced to plead guilty in this

:12:52. > :12:56.incident, and let's look at the mitigating circumstances, which did

:12:56. > :13:00.come up in his court martial, which is the first of all he did not pack

:13:00. > :13:05.the weapon. It was given to him as a gift while he was serving Iraq.

:13:05. > :13:10.He had to go back early from Iraq to organise the funeral of two of

:13:10. > :13:15.his comrades. He was then locked up at a secure location. That said, he

:13:15. > :13:20.was then it moved around and ended up in military accommodation that

:13:20. > :13:25.was outside of the line, in other words not a secure location, not

:13:25. > :13:31.just this 9 mm pistol, but also it more than 300 rounds of ammunition

:13:31. > :13:35.double found in a container under his bed. -- that were found. He

:13:35. > :13:39.said he suffered memory loss and he was on a gruelling charity marathon

:13:39. > :13:45.run in Brazil in 2009 where he fell into a coma and he has suffered

:13:45. > :13:49.memory loss. He said he forgot he had begun. But clearly the evidence

:13:49. > :13:55.is fairly damning, and there is a prohibited weapon found which was

:13:55. > :13:59.not in a secure location. That said, the Defence Secretary clearly feels

:13:59. > :14:01.the heat of a growing public campaign for his release. I think

:14:01. > :14:05.there are some in uniform he would ask the question if this was the

:14:05. > :14:10.right way to go about justice. In other words, should this man who

:14:10. > :14:15.has given so many years' loyal service to the British Army, who

:14:15. > :14:20.has been a key seven for the SAS, should he have got a custodial

:14:20. > :14:23.sentence -- key servant. He could have got five years. If you or me

:14:23. > :14:28.had a gun in our cupboard and ammunition under the bed, we would

:14:28. > :14:31.have been looking at a sentence longer than five years. There is

:14:31. > :14:34.mitigating circumstances and they were looked at, but there are still

:14:34. > :14:39.people who question whether he should have been locked up.

:14:40. > :14:43.Jonathan, thank you very much. You mentioned the defence secretary and

:14:43. > :14:50.he sits here now. You asked the Attorney General to review the

:14:50. > :14:54.conviction. Why? We also share a sense of frustration in the case. I

:14:54. > :14:58.have no power to intervene. The service prosecution authorities

:14:58. > :15:02.Independent as is the judicial system. But there is a test which

:15:02. > :15:06.has to be applied before a prosecution is brought, whether in

:15:06. > :15:10.a military court or civil court, about whether it is in the public

:15:10. > :15:15.interest. And particularly in the case of a service prosecution, in

:15:15. > :15:19.the interest of the service, for the prosecution to be brought. I

:15:19. > :15:26.wanted to be sure in my own mind that that test had been properly

:15:26. > :15:30.applied. I take that test to be contextual. Given that plenty of

:15:30. > :15:35.people have popped up, ex-military men, and said they had done

:15:35. > :15:38.something similar in the past, I wanted to be sure that the context

:15:38. > :15:42.of military service and what goes on, whether it was right or wrong,

:15:42. > :15:52.what actually goes on in practice. Whether that had been taken into

:15:52. > :15:54.

:15:54. > :15:59.account. Did you get the Did you get that reassurance?

:15:59. > :16:03.wrote back to me to say it was not appropriate for him even to review

:16:03. > :16:07.the application of that test because we were yesterday, and we

:16:07. > :16:12.are still this morning, within the appeal period. We all know it is

:16:12. > :16:17.very likely that an appeal will be lodged. So the case is in some

:16:17. > :16:21.case... Were you disappointed by the response of the Attorney

:16:21. > :16:26.General? I'd hoped I would get some reassurance one way or the other,

:16:26. > :16:31.but I understand that the Attorney General has responsibilities within

:16:31. > :16:34.the judicial process. He obviously has to take them seriously.

:16:34. > :16:38.were you concerned or even surprised that the Attorney General

:16:38. > :16:43.issued a press release, went public on your inquiry within minutes of

:16:43. > :16:47.telling you he would intervene. It was an instant response. He clearly

:16:47. > :16:53.felt it was necessary for him to state publicly that he was not

:16:53. > :16:58.getting involved in a process that was still potentially before the

:16:58. > :17:02.courts. I understand that the Attorney General has two hats. He's

:17:02. > :17:05.a politician and a member of the cabinet, but he's also a senior

:17:05. > :17:09.officer within the judicial structure. He clearly felt it was

:17:09. > :17:14.necessary to do that. The team knew that when you wrote to him, but you

:17:14. > :17:17.were still hoping for some progress on what you clearly regard as a

:17:18. > :17:22.vital issue. To be clear, I wasn't expecting the Attorney General to

:17:22. > :17:29.make a public response. I was asking for private advice and

:17:29. > :17:35.guidance on this particular matter. Where we are now... Did you ask him

:17:35. > :17:38.publicly or privately? Did you tell the press that you were going to

:17:38. > :17:42.get in touch with the Attorney General? And I didn't make any

:17:42. > :17:47.secret of that fact. So the public knew he'd been asked and he just

:17:47. > :17:50.answered publicly. The issue now is we hear from Jonathan that an

:17:50. > :17:55.appeal will be lodged this afternoon. There's huge public

:17:55. > :17:59.interest in this case. It would be in the public interest if this

:17:59. > :18:04.appeal for expedited, so we get an answer through the proper judicial

:18:04. > :18:08.mechanism as quickly as possible. Was your request of the Attorney

:18:08. > :18:12.General partly motivated by what you felt was dismay in the armed

:18:12. > :18:18.services about what has happened to Sergeant Nightingale? The question

:18:18. > :18:23.has been raised with me by members of the armed forces, whether the

:18:23. > :18:27.public interest test had been properly applied by the service

:18:27. > :18:34.prosecution authority. That is why I sought the Attorney General's

:18:34. > :18:39.advice on that matter. Where are you on this? It's an absolute

:18:39. > :18:43.offence to own or to be in possession of a firearm and not to

:18:43. > :18:46.have it decommissioned. The rules are that you get five years unless

:18:46. > :18:50.there are exceptional circumstances, whether a civilian or member of the

:18:50. > :18:54.armed forces. We have very strong rules in this country because we

:18:54. > :18:58.don't hat -- want to have weapons on the street. The armed forces

:18:58. > :19:01.have always known it's an absolute no-no that to have weapons that you

:19:01. > :19:06.haven't deactivated. I have sympathy for this gentleman but he

:19:06. > :19:09.had a weapon that haven't been deactivated, that he'd moved to

:19:09. > :19:14.several places. He had bullets under his bed. The place he was

:19:14. > :19:18.living in was not secure. Neither the bullets nor the weapon had been

:19:18. > :19:22.deactivated. Are you aware of the special circumstances his lawyer

:19:23. > :19:27.pleaded? I am. I understand he has had difficulty since that marathon

:19:27. > :19:31.but he was still a serving officer, so he was sufficiently sound to be

:19:31. > :19:36.able to be serving in the SAS. Clearly one needs to... In the end,

:19:36. > :19:39.this is a matter for the courts to decide. I have to say I think

:19:39. > :19:43.yesterday you made a grave mistake because you had asked the Attorney

:19:43. > :19:48.General to look again at a case where a decision had already been

:19:48. > :19:52.made. He had pleaded guilty, he'd been convicted, he'd been sentenced.

:19:52. > :19:56.You know as well as I do that since the glorious Revolution, since

:19:56. > :20:00.James the second, there has been a separation between the executive

:20:00. > :20:04.and the courts. If we allow governments to intervene in the

:20:04. > :20:11.courts and say, we don't like that, have another sentence, this guy

:20:11. > :20:15.should be let off, you are undermining our entire system. I

:20:15. > :20:19.think it's posturing. Emily is a lawyer and is sounding exactly like

:20:19. > :20:25.a lawyer. They do get tremendously pompous about protecting the

:20:25. > :20:28.integrity... You did politics at university. What I was seeking from

:20:28. > :20:31.the Attorney General was reassurance on a specific point.

:20:31. > :20:38.Not asking him to review the sentence or conviction or the wider

:20:38. > :20:44.case. I was asking him specifically whether in his view the service

:20:44. > :20:48.interest test had been correctly applied. I did that after talking

:20:48. > :20:54.to a number of people who'd raised issues with the, including taking

:20:54. > :20:58.informal advice from a legally qualified people who thought that

:20:58. > :21:03.that was an interesting question and appropriate question to ask.

:21:03. > :21:08.I'm told on legal advice that the sergeant could be let out of

:21:08. > :21:12.licence, pending the appeal. That of the services prosecution

:21:12. > :21:16.authority should not be allowed to oppose the appeal. And that both of

:21:16. > :21:21.these decisions are under the remit of the Attorney General. Would you

:21:21. > :21:25.support him taking these decisions? On the first point, you talked

:21:25. > :21:28.about him being in a military prison. The sentence he has been

:21:28. > :21:32.given as one of Military Corrective Training. He could have been

:21:32. > :21:35.sentenced to a prison term, which would have been served in a

:21:35. > :21:40.civilian jail. So this is not a prison term. She should he be

:21:40. > :21:43.allowed out on licence? In the normal course of events, after

:21:43. > :21:47.quite a short period in that facility he will be allowed out,

:21:47. > :21:51.initially for days and then for longer periods of time. It is not a

:21:51. > :21:57.prison sentence. I and he's not been dismissed from the services.

:21:57. > :22:00.It is a retraining programme. have to move on.

:22:00. > :22:05.The nation's finances are broken and yet we are spending ever more

:22:05. > :22:08.money and health care to treat avoidable diseases. Our NHS is

:22:08. > :22:12.these -- based on need and not ability to pay. But if you eat too

:22:12. > :22:17.much, smoke, drink and don't exercise, who should pick up the

:22:17. > :22:27.tab when your body fails? Katie Hopkins thinks it's time for more

:22:27. > :22:34.

:22:34. > :22:38.Sit in any doctor's surgery, hospital waiting room, A&E

:22:38. > :22:42.department and there's one thing you can be sure of. Crowds of

:22:43. > :22:49.people. The old, the young, the rich, the poor, all seeking help

:22:49. > :22:54.from the NHS. The National Health Service was created in 1948 to

:22:54. > :22:59.bring free medical treatment for all. 70 years on, times have

:22:59. > :23:03.changed yet the NHS still provides this service. We now live in a

:23:03. > :23:07.country that offers ever greater amounts of toys. These choices

:23:07. > :23:12.include how we live our lives and how we choose to look after a row

:23:12. > :23:16.bodies. With strong emphasis on health education from an early age,

:23:16. > :23:26.we are now better equipped than ever before to make the right

:23:26. > :23:34.

:23:34. > :23:40.choices on food, diet, exercise and Isn't it time we took

:23:40. > :23:45.responsibility for our own actions? Isn't it time we paid a price for

:23:45. > :23:50.the choices we make? The latest figures show a quarter of adults in

:23:50. > :23:55.England are classified as obese. Around three in 10 boys and girls

:23:55. > :24:01.are classified as either overweight or obese - 20 % of people say they

:24:01. > :24:05.take walks of 20 minutes less than once a year or never! As a taxpayer,

:24:05. > :24:10.I do not want to fund NHS treatment for people that refuse to take

:24:10. > :24:15.exercise. If you choose to smoke, why should I help fund your lung

:24:15. > :24:20.cancer treatment? If you choose to overheat, why should I pay for your

:24:21. > :24:25.operations? NHS demand is overwhelming. It is time to limit

:24:25. > :24:29.NHS provision. If you choose to kill yourselves through your own

:24:29. > :24:33.actions, then you opt out of free medical treatment and you should

:24:33. > :24:43.foot the bill for yourself. Frankly, if you don't care about your health

:24:43. > :24:46.

:24:46. > :24:52.or your body, then as a taxpayer Katie Hopkins has no doubt run to

:24:52. > :24:57.the studio in Plymouth. Can you hear me? I can. How would the

:24:57. > :25:02.alternative work? Who would decide who gets treated and who gets

:25:02. > :25:06.turned away? I'd been overwhelmed by e-mails and texts from people

:25:06. > :25:10.saying that it has been far too long that the taxpayer has been

:25:10. > :25:13.supporting people's poor health choices. It is time that people

:25:13. > :25:17.were made accountable for the choices that they make regarding

:25:17. > :25:21.their health. Who would decide who gets that access to health care?

:25:21. > :25:25.It's time we started to add a premium to people. If you choose to

:25:25. > :25:30.eat yourself into obesity, you pay a premium. If you choose to smoke

:25:30. > :25:34.yourself into lung cancer, you pay a premium. But who would decide who

:25:34. > :25:38.is too fat to get free health care or who has smoked too much or drunk

:25:38. > :25:42.too much - he would make the decision? Wherever the funding sits,

:25:42. > :25:46.whether that was PCTs or whether it needs to be done centrally, the

:25:46. > :25:49.funding decisions need to be made in order to make people accountable

:25:49. > :25:52.for the choices they make. At the moment, we are allowing people to

:25:53. > :25:57.take very poor decisions about their health and are expecting the

:25:57. > :25:59.taxpayer to pick up the tab. That cannot continue while we have

:25:59. > :26:05.queues and queues of people on waiting lists that deserve to be

:26:05. > :26:10.treated. Should lifestyles choices affect your access to health care?

:26:10. > :26:15.If there is a clinical basis for it then sometimes, but I think the

:26:15. > :26:19.case that is being made here... If people's lifestyles choices have

:26:19. > :26:23.led to them being in a condition where treatment is not going to

:26:23. > :26:28.work for them or it's going to be higher risk then clearly there is

:26:28. > :26:30.already a sense in which some of those lifestyles choices do affect

:26:30. > :26:35.their health care treatment available. But should people who

:26:35. > :26:40.drink too much and eat too much be forced to pay for it? We have a

:26:40. > :26:45.system where there treatment is free at the point of need. That's a

:26:45. > :26:49.decision we have made. We recognise that the National Health Service,

:26:49. > :26:53.free at the point of need, is one of the cornerstones on which our

:26:53. > :26:58.modern society is built. If you go down this route, where do you stop?

:26:58. > :27:01.What about kids who don't do their homework, they don't get any help

:27:01. > :27:07.with further education later on - where do we start with this

:27:07. > :27:12.process? It is costing an awful lot of money. Do you think it would

:27:12. > :27:16.have an effect if people who were drinking every Saturday night and

:27:16. > :27:19.were a vast burden on all the emergency services, if they were

:27:19. > :27:26.made to pay for their regular trip to the hospital, do you think it

:27:26. > :27:32.would stop them drinking? Before I answer this, I declare an interest

:27:32. > :27:36.in this. The point is, if you start saying, if you've eaten too much,

:27:36. > :27:40.drunk too much or smoked too much, you should pay more for the

:27:40. > :27:43.National Health Service, then how about if you have a wonky Jean and

:27:43. > :27:46.nevertheless insist on having a child who the chances are we'll

:27:46. > :27:50.have some sort of disability - should you pay more then? What if

:27:50. > :27:54.you are jumping off cliffs and a bit of rubber - should you be

:27:54. > :27:58.paying more then? In the end, the great benefit of the NHS is we are

:27:58. > :28:03.all in it together and we pay equally and all get the benefit of

:28:03. > :28:07.it. It's one of the great things about being British. Katie, you are

:28:07. > :28:13.running every day to stave off that obesity. Should I pay for your

:28:13. > :28:17.arthritis treatment later on? we are all in it together. We are

:28:17. > :28:21.not all in it together. People who eat healthily are contributing to

:28:21. > :28:25.their own personal health care. What about skiers and people who go

:28:25. > :28:28.horse riding? They are very dangerous activities and cost a

:28:28. > :28:31.fortune if you break your neck. can pick those examples but I'm

:28:31. > :28:34.talking about people we district nurses are having to spend time

:28:34. > :28:39.going into their homes because people can't get out of their homes

:28:39. > :28:43.because of their obesity. Ambulances that cost �120,000 just

:28:43. > :28:46.to move someone that is severely obese. We have to take action and

:28:46. > :28:52.we have to stop people who are investing in their health from

:28:52. > :29:02.queueing behind people who really don't care. We have no more time.

:29:02. > :29:11.

:29:11. > :29:18.The Guess The Year and so, that's Thank you to all of our guests

:29:18. > :29:24.today. The news is starting over on BBC One. I will be back tomorrow at