:00:45. > :00:48.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. The IFS warn that
:00:48. > :00:52.there is a �27 billion hole in the public finances looming for 2017/18
:00:52. > :00:59.and it will have to be filled by tax rises and more spending cuts
:00:59. > :01:05.the other side of the general election. Happy days! We'll have
:01:05. > :01:10.the details. As Starbucks wakes up, smells the coffee and says, OK,
:01:10. > :01:13.we'll pay more tax. Has justice been done? Or can we all get to
:01:13. > :01:16.decide the tax we will pay? A leading businessman takes on UK
:01:16. > :01:21.Uncut. Would an independent Scotland need to reapply for
:01:21. > :01:26.membership of the EU? Alex Salmond says no. The Scottish Secretary
:01:26. > :01:32.says yes. So, it seems, does the EU Commission. We'll talk to both
:01:32. > :01:34.sides. And, after one of the most moving questions in the history of
:01:34. > :01:44.Prime Minister's Questions, Ann Clwyd debates the state of nursing
:01:44. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :01:49.care in the UK with the Royal All that in the next hour. And,
:01:49. > :01:52.with us for the duration, two shrinking violets - meek Mary Ann-
:01:52. > :02:02.Sieghart, columinst and chair of the Social Market Foundation - and
:02:02. > :02:04.
:02:04. > :02:08.shy and retiring Peter Hitchens of the Mail on Sunday. We will be
:02:08. > :02:11.lucky to get a peep out of them the whole show. Now, it is a winter
:02:11. > :02:18.tradition, up there with hanging out the tinsel and sinking a warm
:02:18. > :02:20.glass of mulled wine. The day after the Autumn Statement, the Institute
:02:20. > :02:23.for Fiscal Studies tears the Chancellor's figures limb from limb
:02:23. > :02:27.until the true, horrible story emerges. It is never a pretty sight
:02:27. > :02:37.and this year is no exception. Gemma Tetlow, programme director
:02:37. > :02:39.
:02:39. > :02:43.from the IFS, joins us with the gory details. Of the this 27
:02:43. > :02:49.billion. What you're saying is, of to meet the targets that have been
:02:49. > :02:55.sent out, after the election - the Government will have to find
:02:55. > :03:00.another 27 billion ING cuts or tax rises. Is that right? What the
:03:00. > :03:07.centre yesterday, the Chancellor set out a plan to meet his fiscal
:03:07. > :03:12.mandate by the end of 27/18. In order to do that, he needs to
:03:12. > :03:18.implement the additional spending cuts. If you want to avoid cutting
:03:19. > :03:25.departmental spending further, he would need to find �27 billion.
:03:25. > :03:35.did you know? We have no idea what will happen next it in the economy.
:03:35. > :03:39.How do you know what will happen in 2017/18? There is clearly a huge
:03:40. > :03:44.amount of uncertainty about what will happen in the next few years.
:03:44. > :03:49.That is always the case - particularly so at the moment. It
:03:49. > :03:54.is important the Government has an idea of what will happen in order
:03:54. > :04:03.to plan public finances. It could turn out things are better or worse.
:04:03. > :04:09.The current government may not be in power by 2017/18. Maybe not
:04:09. > :04:14.George Osborne, Danny Alexander or Nick Clegg's problems. They have so
:04:14. > :04:17.set out plans at the moment and have said they will set out plans
:04:17. > :04:22.for the following year, which would take us through to the point of the
:04:22. > :04:29.next general election. What happens in the next parliament will still
:04:29. > :04:39.be an clear and will depend on who comes into power. -- not clear.
:04:39. > :04:42.
:04:42. > :04:50.the cuts on the horizon? Even if the economy returns to growth of
:04:50. > :04:56.3%? They do think there is a significant output gap remaining by
:04:56. > :05:02.2018. There was still be scope for growth beyond 2018. If that was not
:05:02. > :05:08.the case, further cuts will be required. It is clearly very
:05:08. > :05:14.uncertain. Coming a little closer to where we are, it is my
:05:14. > :05:24.understanding that for two dozen and 16/17, part of which will fall
:05:24. > :05:25.
:05:25. > :05:30.under the -- 2015/16, part of which will fall under the cover and --
:05:30. > :05:34.the current government and then we will have a general election.
:05:34. > :05:38.set out an additional �4 billion worth of welfare cuts. They said
:05:38. > :05:43.the remaining spending cuts will come from public services. They
:05:43. > :05:48.said the same protection for some departments would continue, as we
:05:49. > :05:55.had in the current Spending Review. That does mean the squeeze on the
:05:55. > :06:00.remaining areas will be harsher than the average. It has been more
:06:00. > :06:05.harsh over the current four years. It will squeeze the same
:06:05. > :06:10.departments. Every time the Chancellor appears, he announces he
:06:10. > :06:15.is going to borrow more than he had previously thought he was going to
:06:15. > :06:19.borrow. He has told us he will borrow more again in the Autumn
:06:19. > :06:25.Statement. Why should we believe these figures, since he is
:06:25. > :06:31.consistently wrong? Since 2010, we have seen a consistent pattern of
:06:31. > :06:35.economic growth underperforming. That is feeding through into a
:06:35. > :06:39.worsening outlook for the public finances as well. It is extremely
:06:39. > :06:43.to the will to know what will happen. That is essentially what
:06:43. > :06:49.has been happening over recent years as problems in the eurozone
:06:49. > :06:54.have been causing further weakness in the UK. Do your eyes ever glaze
:06:54. > :07:00.over at all these figures? Personally, I find them very
:07:00. > :07:09.interesting but it is a lot to get your head around. Sadly, so do live.
:07:09. > :07:13.Bankia very much for joining us. -- thank you very much. When you stand
:07:13. > :07:18.back from the Autumn Statement and look at the figures - borrowing,
:07:18. > :07:25.debt, growth going down - the continued squeeze on living
:07:25. > :07:32.standards into next year, it is remarkable he got the press he did.
:07:33. > :07:37.His entire plan is failing. He is not cutting the deficit. He is not
:07:37. > :07:42.cutting debt and will probably lose the sacred AAA credit rating that
:07:42. > :07:49.he has been doing all this for. The whole point was, I have to do this
:07:49. > :07:54.or the financial markets will take flight and it will be a disaster.
:07:54. > :07:59.He will lose his AAA credit rating even though he has done all this
:07:59. > :08:06.and he has not reduced the deficit all got debt down by the time of
:08:06. > :08:09.the next election. Fiscal conservatism, debt reduction, that
:08:09. > :08:15.was the core of the economic strategy. Are the wheels coming
:08:15. > :08:21.off? It was fake to start with. There has been an incredible
:08:21. > :08:29.increase in borrowing and the debt is continuing to rise. We are a
:08:29. > :08:33.fast, welfare junkie, unable to get itself off enormous taxes. Spending
:08:33. > :08:39.is falling into is just tax revenues are falling as fast and
:08:39. > :08:49.the deficit is not shrinking. falling relatively. There is no
:08:49. > :08:49.
:08:49. > :08:55.serious attempt to change the nature of the country.
:08:55. > :09:00.Government's strategy, or whether it is right is another matter, the
:09:00. > :09:03.Government inherited a situation where the state spent over 50% of
:09:03. > :09:11.our national wealth on the trajectory they're trying to hit,
:09:11. > :09:15.it goes below 40%. That is a huge cut. If it ever happens. At the
:09:15. > :09:20.moment where the country is too dependent on state spending. It is
:09:20. > :09:25.not a crisis out of which we will emerge and the cash tills will
:09:26. > :09:32.start to ring again. This is the moment at which we begin to
:09:32. > :09:36.experience serious economic decline. There is no end to this. If you are
:09:36. > :09:41.going to cut state spending, and you do need to do that, you need to
:09:41. > :09:45.do it at a time when other parts of the economy can pick up the slack.
:09:45. > :09:51.There is consumer spending, business investment, state spending
:09:51. > :09:54.and exports. Exports are shot to hell and businesses are not
:09:54. > :10:00.investing. Consumers are not spending because real incomes are
:10:00. > :10:10.being cut. It is a terrible time to be cutting government spending. It
:10:10. > :10:10.
:10:10. > :10:16.reduces growth and tax revenues. Hillary Clinton has arrived in
:10:16. > :10:24.Belfast this morning over decisions to take down the Union flag, which
:10:24. > :10:26.flies above City Hall. And last night came a reminder of the threat
:10:26. > :10:29.of dissident Republican violence with arrests after the discovery of
:10:29. > :10:39.a bomb in Londonderry. Hardly the ideal backdrop to the high-profile
:10:39. > :10:39.
:10:39. > :10:45.visit. What is the latest on the ground of the unrest, sparked off
:10:45. > :10:52.by the argument over the flag? is right. There are separate things
:10:52. > :10:56.going on. On the one hand, there is the loyalist unhappiness about this
:10:56. > :11:02.decision to dramatically restrict the flying of the Union flag from
:11:03. > :11:06.City Hall. We saw more trouble last night related to the protests in
:11:07. > :11:12.Ballymena. Several vehicles have been damaged and two young men have
:11:12. > :11:17.been arrested. We have also heard of a death threat which has been
:11:17. > :11:23.made to an alliance Party MP. The Alliance party was involved in
:11:23. > :11:28.voting for this decision to restrict the flying of the flags.
:11:28. > :11:34.Naomi Long, the MP in question, who has been threatened. Police have
:11:34. > :11:39.advised her to leave her home. She will not be doing so. She is
:11:39. > :11:43.determined to continue in her democratically-elected role.
:11:43. > :11:48.Obviously, a great deal of concern about that. On the other side,
:11:48. > :11:52.about the dissident republicans and the discovery of a viable
:11:52. > :11:58.improvised explosive device yesterday evening. Is it expected
:11:58. > :12:03.to get worse? It is difficult to say. There is concern on behalf of
:12:03. > :12:07.the police that it well. They are hoping it will not. They are urging
:12:07. > :12:15.people from all sides did think carefully about what they're doing
:12:15. > :12:22.and where it might be heading. -- to think. Hillary Clinton, one
:12:22. > :12:32.imagines she will have a similar message. She is meeting Peter
:12:32. > :12:33.
:12:33. > :12:38.Robertson -- Robinson at the moment. Is this a farewell tour? Is it the
:12:38. > :12:43.start of her campaign for the presidency in 2016? I do not think
:12:43. > :12:50.people are saying all that much about it. She is not here for very
:12:50. > :12:57.long - just a few hours. One does wonder whether it is not kind of a
:12:57. > :13:01.valedictory visit, designed to put into the minds of people the
:13:01. > :13:09.success her husband a tutor in Northern Ireland and to put that
:13:09. > :13:14.fresh in the minds of others. As for the visit, it has been
:13:14. > :13:19.overshadowed by these new tensions - renewed tensions. It is well
:13:19. > :13:25.worth pointing out that we are by no means where we were before the
:13:25. > :13:32.peace process started. It is a very different landscape from the one
:13:32. > :13:39.she initially visited years ago. What a ill-thought so on mess?
:13:39. > :13:44.Interesting about the flag. -- what are your thoughts on this? If you
:13:44. > :13:53.surrender, you have to take your flag down. On government buildings,
:13:53. > :13:58.it has been illegal to fly the Union flag since 2000. The Hall in
:13:58. > :14:08.Belfast is falling into line with the rest. The flat poll is bear on
:14:08. > :14:08.
:14:08. > :14:18.government buildings in Northern Ireland. -- the flagpole. Those are
:14:18. > :14:22.
:14:22. > :14:28.the days on which it can be flown - state birthdays. In 1998, under
:14:28. > :14:34.pressure from the Clintons, this country surrendered to the IRA.
:14:34. > :14:40.They wanted a united Ireland. will get one. All that stands
:14:40. > :14:47.between the transfer of Northern Ireland and the centenary of the
:14:47. > :14:54.Irish Free State, which would have been in 2016... All it takes is for
:14:54. > :14:59.that referendum to happen and the boat to go the way the Republicans
:14:59. > :15:06.want. If there is a referendum, it is up to the people of Northern
:15:06. > :15:10.Ireland. Do you think the majority of people will vote for a union?
:15:10. > :15:14.Democratic change and the blatant weakness of the British connection.
:15:14. > :15:24.The problem with Northern Ireland has always been that one group or
:15:24. > :15:32.the other dominates. You are seeing, since the beginning of the process,
:15:32. > :15:40.putting down riots involving people waving illegal Union Jacks. Peace
:15:40. > :15:45.has not been achieved. It is much more juice -- peaceful than it was.
:15:45. > :15:50.If you are an individual, living in Northern Ireland, you face a lot of
:15:50. > :15:55.criminal intimidation from the crime families, to which we
:15:55. > :16:01.surrendered the province in 1998. It is hugely more peaceful. That is
:16:01. > :16:05.why we are surprised to hear two devices have been found. It is a
:16:05. > :16:11.surprise and it used not to. have to see that what has happened
:16:12. > :16:17.is it is much lower level. Intimidation and hostility... For
:16:17. > :16:23.people living there, it is quite frightening. Is it any different
:16:23. > :16:27.from the tough areas of Glasgow and Manchester? It is. There is a
:16:28. > :16:37.sectarian gangster element. The idea that republicanism is disarmed
:16:38. > :16:43.
:16:43. > :16:48.is absurd. Who do you think these What happened here... The Clintons
:16:48. > :16:52.fixed on the Irish issue as a way of getting back to working-class
:16:52. > :16:57.Catholic vote which they had lost over abortion. They had no interest
:16:57. > :17:01.in Ireland, it was a cynical exercise in American domestic
:17:01. > :17:04.politics. Right. Up Now, the coffee chain Starbucks is
:17:04. > :17:07.in giveaway mode - excellent, mine's a skinny latte - but the
:17:07. > :17:10.handout in question is cash not coffee after they caved in to
:17:10. > :17:13.public pressure yesterday and said they'd pay more in tax over the
:17:13. > :17:16.next couple of years. The company, along with other multinationals
:17:16. > :17:19.like Google and Amazon, have faced a public outcry over the amount of
:17:19. > :17:22.corporation tax they pay in this country. Starbucks says it will pay
:17:22. > :17:30."a significant amount of tax during 2013 and 2014, regardless of
:17:30. > :17:33.whether the company is profitable". Starbucks' troubles began after it
:17:33. > :17:36.was revealed that in 14 years operating in the UK, they have only
:17:36. > :17:46.paid �8.6 million in corporation tax despite UK sales of nearly �400
:17:46. > :17:47.
:17:47. > :17:49.million in 2011 alone. That was all perfectly legal, but it came
:17:49. > :17:55.against a background of a tax avoidance clampdown that George
:17:55. > :17:57.Osborne has said can raise an extra �10 billion. The Chancellor's
:17:57. > :18:01.sidekick, The Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, was
:18:01. > :18:05.so outraged that, along with many other customers in the UK, he was
:18:05. > :18:13.boycotting the chain. Starbucks defended themselves by pointing out
:18:13. > :18:16.they operate 750 stores across the UK and they employ 8,500 people.
:18:16. > :18:19.But yesterday they threw in the towel, offering a windfall for the
:18:19. > :18:25.Treasury - should they accept it - of �20 million in extra tax over
:18:25. > :18:29.the next two years. But that won't be enough for campaigners UK Uncut,
:18:29. > :18:35.who plan to go ahead with protests in the Starbucks coffee shops this
:18:35. > :18:37.weekend. With us to debate the great coffee climbdown is Andrew
:18:37. > :18:47.Perloff, chairman of property investment company Panther
:18:47. > :18:47.
:18:47. > :18:54.Securities, and Anna Walker from tax campaigners UK Uncut. Welcome
:18:54. > :18:58.to both of you. Clearly, Starbucks must have felt, obviously they are
:18:58. > :19:01.under pressure from public opinion, but they must have felt it is
:19:01. > :19:10.amazing we got away with paying so little tax we better cough up some
:19:10. > :19:16.more. Asking my opinion? Yes. People talk about tax. Really, they
:19:16. > :19:24.are talking about corporation tax, which is a small slice paid on
:19:24. > :19:29.profit. Starbucks pays between 10 and �15 million property tax on
:19:29. > :19:36.their shops. Whether they make a profit or not, whether they sell
:19:36. > :19:41.one cup of coffee or not. We all do. We pay council tax, VAT, national
:19:41. > :19:47.insurance, it doesn't let us off paying income tax. Her no, but they
:19:47. > :19:54.still paid 10 to �15 million, they pay taxes on the payroll, a huge
:19:54. > :19:59.amount, they employ 8,500 people, they probably create employment at
:19:59. > :20:06.50% of that on all of their suppliers, who either make money
:20:06. > :20:13.and pay tax, they pay VAT. Let me stop you. They don't pay VAT. We
:20:13. > :20:17.pay VAT. They collected four HMRC. Every company does this. Costa
:20:17. > :20:23.Coffee does it, other British companies for up they also pay
:20:23. > :20:27.corporation tax. No, their benefit to the country is the amount they
:20:27. > :20:31.come out -- create for the country. You have to say, well, what would
:20:31. > :20:37.happen if they are not there. People would go to other coffee
:20:37. > :20:42.shops. Can't necessarily. shortage on the high street.
:20:42. > :20:49.There's 100,000 shops vacant in the high street. These people take
:20:49. > :20:52.properties, spend money, pay VAT on the shop fitting, create jobs,
:20:52. > :20:59.create business. It is spread around the economy. Let me bring in
:20:59. > :21:03.UK Uncut. You haven't really won because it is almost a medieval
:21:03. > :21:08.situation where the powerful barons of business can go to the
:21:08. > :21:12.Government and negotiate how much tax they will pay as a like the
:21:12. > :21:16.medieval landlords did with the king. I agree completely and that
:21:16. > :21:22.is why we are protesting against a box tomorrow. It is not up to
:21:23. > :21:28.Starbucks to pick and choose how much it wants to pay. This �10
:21:28. > :21:34.million it is claiming, promising, it will pay, is essentially a �10
:21:34. > :21:38.million PR stunt. It will probably come out of the PR budget. Her I
:21:38. > :21:42.imagine so. We are calling for the Government to clamp down on tax
:21:42. > :21:47.avoidance, as it keeps saying it will, but it is not actually taking
:21:47. > :21:53.any action whatsoever. Starbucks has not promised to change the way
:21:53. > :21:58.it operates globally or in the UK. It will still be siphon in its
:21:58. > :22:02.profits that it is making off the back of its sales here out of the
:22:02. > :22:07.UK and claiming it is not a profitable company. All Starbucks
:22:07. > :22:10.is doing is following the rules. I would suggest the real villains are
:22:10. > :22:14.the politicians across the road from here who over the years have
:22:14. > :22:19.agreed to things that allows Starbucks to be able to do that,
:22:19. > :22:23.have made the rules so complicated that you spend a ton of money on
:22:23. > :22:27.expensive accountants and you will find ways to do it. If the system
:22:27. > :22:32.was simple, no deductions, no loopholes, they would not get away
:22:32. > :22:36.with it. Absolutely and that is why we are calling on the Government to
:22:36. > :22:40.complete a radical reform in tax legislation. It is this government,
:22:40. > :22:43.the last government, which did create these loopholes that
:22:44. > :22:48.multinational companies like Starbucks and Amazon and are
:22:48. > :22:53.exploiting. That is what is wrong, particularly at a time of economic
:22:53. > :23:00.crisis. What do you say? You have not said anything sensible. That is
:23:00. > :23:09.no change here! They create jobs. The biggest problem in this country
:23:09. > :23:12.is we have too many unemployed or they create business, they are
:23:12. > :23:17.based in property. I won't talk about the internet, they are
:23:17. > :23:21.property-based. They have taxes they can't escape from. They have -
:23:21. > :23:25.- we have one of the highest property taxes in the world.
:23:25. > :23:30.you saying no company should pay corporation tax because they are
:23:30. > :23:35.helping the economy in other ways? I'm not saying that. Whether they
:23:35. > :23:39.expand or not, they choose. If they stopped expanding their shops, they
:23:39. > :23:44.would probably go into profit quicker, but by expanding and using
:23:44. > :23:47.the profits they are making, which goes back into expanding the
:23:47. > :23:54.business, they create more employment which creates hidden
:23:54. > :23:58.benefits. Anybody could say that. It is only the companies that pay
:23:58. > :24:02.for the politicians, the civil service and all the unemployment
:24:02. > :24:08.benefits, it is only paid by the businesses that create business.
:24:08. > :24:11.such piety. Why is everybody so keen on paying tax themselves to a
:24:11. > :24:15.government that is constantly being exposed as incompetent and
:24:15. > :24:20.wasteful? It throws away large amounts of money on things we don't
:24:20. > :24:26.like and don't want. It can't run a decent school system, transport
:24:26. > :24:32.system. Why are we so keen on paying tax? Even Labour politicians,
:24:32. > :24:37.given the chance to avoid legally, a bit of inheritance tax on their
:24:37. > :24:41.parents' houses when they inherit them, will do what is necessary to
:24:41. > :24:46.get around paying tax. Almost anyone with the opportunity to pay
:24:46. > :24:49.next tasks will take it. Who do you think will end up paying if
:24:49. > :24:56.Starbucks pays more corporation tax? Their customers of Starbucks.
:24:56. > :25:04.More money from your pocket into the hands of an incompetent...
:25:04. > :25:09.There's no shortage of coffee shops. Starbucks is the one not paying the
:25:09. > :25:15.tax. What do we get for the tax we pay? What do we get for tax? Let's
:25:15. > :25:20.think about it. Schools... At bad schools. Patricia schools, some of
:25:20. > :25:30.the worst schools in the advanced schools. -- atrocious schools.
:25:30. > :25:33.
:25:33. > :25:37.need schools. We need nurses. is a really important question. To
:25:37. > :25:43.say that nobody should bother paying tax, I don't... We should be
:25:43. > :25:49.sceptical about tax. Tax pays for roads and rubbish collection and
:25:49. > :25:55.education and nurses and people to survive. He is and there and
:25:55. > :26:00.unfairness... Excuse me. We've heard that many times. Isn't there
:26:00. > :26:04.and unfairness in the situation where British-based competitors of
:26:04. > :26:08.Starbucks, British-owned, because they can't do the international
:26:08. > :26:12.jiggery-pokery that Starbucks is doing with royalty fees being
:26:12. > :26:19.charged so it depresses profits, they are a disadvantage in
:26:19. > :26:25.competing with Starbucks. That is rubbish. Why? Do you think they
:26:25. > :26:29.don't do their own accountancy arrangements? Excuse me, at the
:26:29. > :26:37.British coffee shops pay a lot more tax than Starbucks. Costa Coffee is
:26:37. > :26:42.one example. The depends. Of a expanding? Yes. They are. They are.
:26:42. > :26:46.I don't know, you're saying that. Do you think they are consulting
:26:46. > :26:51.with lawyers to see if they can't pay less? People are always trying
:26:51. > :26:57.to pay less tax. You talk about... You say they are not paying their
:26:57. > :27:02.tax. They are paying a minimum corporation tax. If there should be
:27:02. > :27:07.anything payable. They are not breaking the law. No one has raised
:27:07. > :27:12.that issue. Another thing, the Revenue have got the cleverest
:27:12. > :27:19.people in the country working for them, investigating. They have been
:27:19. > :27:23.cut. No no. Yes, by �3 billion... They have got whole sections
:27:23. > :27:28.dealing with complicated corporate affairs. If they think for one
:27:28. > :27:34.minute a company is cheating to a degree that is unacceptable, they
:27:34. > :27:38.can close it down in a day. They don't do that. If the rules are
:27:38. > :27:43.wrong, I accept, it is for the Government to change the rules. If
:27:43. > :27:49.they play by the Rolls, that is fair. I need to quit on this
:27:50. > :27:54.agreement. It is taxation by media. A witch hunt by 90% of the people
:27:54. > :27:59.who have not the slightest idea how it works and the benefits they get.
:27:59. > :28:04.Starbucks is interesting... We are running out of time. Don't start.
:28:04. > :28:10.They employ a lot of young people. You've already said that. By on a
:28:10. > :28:17.minimum wage. I think we will stop there. If the rules are wrong, they
:28:17. > :28:20.should be changed, we are agreed on that. But not Peter.
:28:20. > :28:23.Now, Prime Minister's Questions is usually an entirely raucous and,
:28:23. > :28:27.you might say, childish affair where the baying mob wins out every
:28:27. > :28:33.week. But occasionally, a question comes that rises above all that and
:28:33. > :28:36.silences the House. It happened on Wednesday when Labour's Ann Clywd,
:28:36. > :28:39.whose husband died in October after NHS treatment which she compared to
:28:39. > :28:49.that of a battery hen, stood up to put a question to David Cameron.
:28:49. > :28:53.
:28:53. > :28:57.Have a look at this. Ann Clwyd. Universal healthcare
:28:57. > :29:03.system free at the point of delivery is what the overwhelming
:29:03. > :29:09.majority of the British people want. Something which I remain firmly
:29:09. > :29:14.committed to. However there are increasing complaints about nurses
:29:14. > :29:19.who fail to show care and compassion to their patients. What
:29:19. > :29:23.exactly will the prime minister do about that? The honourable lady
:29:23. > :29:27.speaks for the whole house and the whole country in raising this issue
:29:27. > :29:32.and I know how painful it must have been with what she has witnessed in
:29:32. > :29:37.her own life and with her own family. I am, as she is, a massive
:29:37. > :29:41.fan of the NHS, an enormous fan of the fact it is free at the point of
:29:41. > :29:46.use, you don't produce a credit card in hospital and my own family
:29:46. > :29:50.has had extraordinary care through the NHS. But we don't do the NHS or
:29:50. > :29:57.nurses any favours if we don't. Elk there are very real problems in
:29:57. > :30:01.parts of our health and care And Ann Clywd joins me now, along
:30:01. > :30:09.with Janet Davies - the Director of Nursing at the Royal College of
:30:09. > :30:19.Nursing. Many people will have seen you on Prime Minister's Questions.
:30:19. > :30:19.
:30:19. > :30:26.It is a difficult subject for you. What happened? What I saw was lack
:30:26. > :30:33.of compassion, lack of care, dismissive and us, lack of people
:30:33. > :30:38.to talk to. I was ill for about four days before my husband died
:30:39. > :30:44.and I was not able to going. I rang up every day and was told he was
:30:44. > :30:49.doing well and had had a good night. On the Sunday - the day before he
:30:49. > :30:56.died - the staff were said to make on the telephone, we see no reason
:30:56. > :31:01.why he should not be home next week. I thought, that is fine. On Monday
:31:01. > :31:07.morning, a few hours later, I got the call from a hospital saying he
:31:07. > :31:14.was very ill and he had got an infection - pneumonia. As soon as I
:31:14. > :31:20.heard that word, I knew pretty much what that meant. I had been
:31:20. > :31:27.dreaming at night about him being cold. The days I had been with him
:31:27. > :31:34.in A&E for 24 hours, it was very cold. I kept asking when he would
:31:34. > :31:42.be put on a ward. I stood by him a second day in A&E for two-and-a-
:31:42. > :31:48.half hours. You could not text from inside because there was no signal.
:31:48. > :31:54.I asked my PA to ring an administrator to try and get an
:31:54. > :31:57.administrator. Two-and-a-half hours later they came and he was put on a
:31:57. > :32:03.a respiratory ward that nine. I developed a respiratory infection
:32:03. > :32:13.and they told me not to come in. I was ringing once a day to find out
:32:13. > :32:18.how he was. I felt ignored. I felt he was ignored. Let me come on to
:32:18. > :32:23.that. There was a system failure here, in one situation. I've got
:32:23. > :32:30.the impression you also felt the care he received was much lower
:32:30. > :32:35.quality than it should have been. just did not see the personal care.
:32:35. > :32:43.On the Monday before he died, after a went into hospital after having
:32:43. > :32:49.that call, I sat by his bed from 2:30pm until 10:30pm, I only saw
:32:49. > :32:55.one round. And kept trying to stop someone in the corridor and say,
:32:55. > :33:01.why is my house when not on intensive care? The answer was,
:33:01. > :33:07.there are lots of people worse than him. I asked another question and
:33:07. > :33:12.was brushed aside. I do not expect special treatment but we knew our
:33:12. > :33:20.concern for someone who is very pale, there should be some
:33:20. > :33:24.appreciation of that. -- very ill. I was on the Commission for the NHS.
:33:24. > :33:31.In 1979, we received much evidence expressing concern about declining
:33:31. > :33:35.standards of care. The RCN claimed that standards had been put at risk
:33:35. > :33:40.because of financial constraints, increased workload and manpower
:33:40. > :33:47.shortages. In hospitals they submitted neglect of basic nursing
:33:47. > :33:51.routines. This is 30 years ago. me bring in Janet Davies at the
:33:51. > :33:57.Royal College of Nursing. Is there something going wrong in the
:33:57. > :34:02.culture of Nursing which causes these things to happen? This is a
:34:02. > :34:12.terrible story. As a nurse, I find it very distressing rummy his
:34:12. > :34:18.stories of poor nursing. Why does it happen? The Prime Minister said
:34:18. > :34:24.there is no silver bullet. It is a complex situation. The majority of
:34:24. > :34:29.nurses do a very good job. They are passionate about their roles and
:34:29. > :34:34.their careers. There are situations when it goes wrong. Nurses come
:34:34. > :34:38.into nursing because they want to nurse. It is not an easy course and
:34:38. > :34:45.something goes wrong with some nurses. Not in recruitment but
:34:45. > :34:49.something later on in their career. We need to pinpoint what goes wrong.
:34:49. > :34:53.They are a multiple reasons that we can see. The first one is, the
:34:53. > :34:59.nurse themselves. Usually they are tired, overworked of May maybe the
:34:59. > :35:04.wrong person for the wrong job in the wrong place. Secondly, they
:35:04. > :35:07.have to have the support, culture and resource to do their job
:35:07. > :35:13.properly. They need the right attitude of managers, support
:35:13. > :35:18.around them, the right equipment and training. We are seeing too
:35:18. > :35:27.often that nurses are well qualified. It does not stop. You
:35:27. > :35:33.need a freshers and time - time to reflect. -- refreshers. Have we
:35:33. > :35:38.made too much of the need... We have made it almost a degree
:35:38. > :35:42.profession now? Have we put too much emphasis on that and not
:35:42. > :35:47.enough on the attitudes and compassion and the attitude of the
:35:47. > :35:53.individual to do this difficult job? A mean look at this and when
:35:53. > :35:59.we talk to student nurses, we rarely see a case that involves a
:35:59. > :36:04.student nurse. -- when we look at this. We hear stories like this
:36:04. > :36:08.again and again. We do not hear stories where everything goes right.
:36:08. > :36:13.People acknowledge it is a minority problem but it seems to be a
:36:13. > :36:18.growing minority problem. recognise it is a problem and we
:36:18. > :36:24.certainly need to make sure it does not happen to other people. I agree,
:36:24. > :36:28.the majority of nurses, I'm sure, care. I have had hundreds of e-
:36:28. > :36:38.mails since I decided to go public. It is very difficult to talk about
:36:38. > :36:43.and I did not really want to do it. Hundreds of letters! Somebody had
:36:43. > :36:49.said, a doctor said in an article in the Telegraph a few weeks ago,
:36:49. > :36:56.since they made nursing a degree course, they get the wrong people.
:36:56. > :36:59.They think they are above the menial tasks. We need compassionate
:36:59. > :37:05.nurses who are entering the profession because they care for
:37:05. > :37:10.people and not for the salary. completely agree with that. I am
:37:10. > :37:16.amazed that nurses are not assessed on their caring skills as well as
:37:16. > :37:23.their computer input skills. They're actually doing the job. Why
:37:23. > :37:29.aren't patients asked, how we shall care? How compassionate eye on
:37:29. > :37:33.nurses? -- How was your care? Patients are terrified of
:37:33. > :37:42.complaining because the in such a vulnerable position and that nurses
:37:42. > :37:50.will take out -- taking out on them. First of all, I am very sorry for
:37:50. > :37:59.your loss. This has been going on for so long that it really is time
:37:59. > :38:04.to do something about it. There was a thing called Project 2000
:38:04. > :38:09.introduced in 1988, which is the beginning of the transformation of
:38:09. > :38:19.Nursing into a supposedly graduate profession, as opposed to what it
:38:19. > :38:21.
:38:21. > :38:26.was before. My aunt sauna sink as a disciplined - self sacrificing and
:38:26. > :38:36.humorous but not to be viewed in the terms that any other way of
:38:36. > :38:37.
:38:37. > :38:43.life was. She saw that disappear before she retired. Something was
:38:43. > :38:48.lost when we tried to make nurses graduate professionals. I really do
:38:48. > :38:55.think the RCN has to recognise this and so do politicians. Big mistakes
:38:55. > :38:59.were made, particularly in the 1980s. What we have done at the RCN
:38:59. > :39:05.is recognised there was a problem. They have said there is no hiding
:39:05. > :39:11.place for poor nursing. The issue about graduate nurses, we have said,
:39:11. > :39:15.we need to look at theirs. We commissioned Lord Willis to do an
:39:15. > :39:21.independent commission on theirs. He has found there is no evidence
:39:21. > :39:26.that becoming a graduate professional has reduced any
:39:26. > :39:30.quality. In fact, they have improved quality. There is no
:39:30. > :39:37.research behind what you're saying but there is to say many graduate
:39:37. > :39:43.Nursing has made a difference. get the same sort of letters that
:39:43. > :39:52.and gets on the subject. If you have not got compassion in nursing,
:39:52. > :40:02.you should not be there. If you do not have the compassion, do not go
:40:02. > :40:04.
:40:04. > :40:09.there. Thank you. Now it is the political row which has got all of
:40:09. > :40:15.Asia talking. The new design for the Chinese passport shows a map
:40:15. > :40:18.with territories that are disputed And now the US say they will raise
:40:18. > :40:21.the issue with Beijing too. Who knew the humble passport could be
:40:21. > :40:26.so political? Adam has been finding out just how much. You cannot leave
:40:26. > :40:34.home or your home country without it. How much to the really notice
:40:34. > :40:39.our passports? It is a bit worrying. What do you think that passport
:40:39. > :40:45.says about South Africa as a country? Very little. Where are you
:40:46. > :40:53.from? I am from Belgium. What does the Belgian passport has in terms
:40:53. > :41:00.of design features? That is in Brussels. A Belgian monument.
:41:00. > :41:06.passport was issued in 2009. They were going through a third phase.
:41:06. > :41:14.Now they are filled with British Land marks instead. What does a
:41:14. > :41:19.Libyan passport look like? Just a green one. All the Libyans are
:41:19. > :41:24.waiting to change this passport. Few people care as much as
:41:24. > :41:32.immigration official turned author, Martin Lloyd, who has a collection
:41:32. > :41:39.of 400 of them. This was issued by France in 1820. It was issued to a
:41:39. > :41:43.Spanish refugee, who was applying for asylum in France. That is a
:41:43. > :41:49.description of the man, right down to the colour of his eyebrows, the
:41:49. > :41:54.shape of his chin and knows - everything. It is a British
:41:54. > :42:03.passport. A single sheet of paper bound in leather covers by the
:42:03. > :42:08.Passport agent. Passport number 13. It is signed in hand by the British
:42:08. > :42:13.Foreign Secretary - your palms stone - at the bottom. This is a
:42:13. > :42:18.Cypriot passport. -- Lord Palmerston. The people in the north
:42:18. > :42:24.of the island could only get a Turkish passport. They were issued
:42:24. > :42:31.with this. The Turkish Federated state of Cyprus. It is a travel
:42:31. > :42:35.document and not a passport. That is a very political passport.
:42:35. > :42:42.British pass was got political in the mid- 1980s when the old Blue
:42:42. > :42:46.gave way to EU Burgundy. -- passports. It caused consternation
:42:47. > :42:51.at the highest levels. Both Mrs Thatcher and Lord Carrington were
:42:51. > :42:58.doubtful about it a conscious of the sensitivities and
:42:58. > :43:03.misunderstandings that might make people think Britain had lost
:43:03. > :43:06.control. I do remember that when the passports were eventually
:43:06. > :43:13.issued, Jeffrey Howe when he was then Foreign Secretary, he insisted
:43:13. > :43:19.on having the first one. When you think about it, they really are
:43:19. > :43:23.lots of passports floating around the world. 47 million UK once, 37
:43:23. > :43:28.million Chinese ones and 130 million belonging to US citizens.
:43:28. > :43:35.You thought the most interesting thing about your passport was the
:43:36. > :43:42.photo. It is a fake! No it is not. Does it matter have a passport
:43:42. > :43:49.looks? They all look the same, don't they? Exactly. I used to love
:43:49. > :43:54.my old British passport. It was wonderful and elegant. We had to
:43:54. > :44:01.give it up for the paper one. point was it was not a British
:44:01. > :44:08.passport any more. It was a European Union passport. A retired
:44:08. > :44:11.Lithuanian KGB colonel has the same passport. There is no such thing as
:44:11. > :44:21.British citizenship or a British frontier and we have lost it.
:44:21. > :44:27.People should pay more attention. There is controversy in the air
:44:27. > :44:31.about Scottish independence. The latest row was in the Scotsman
:44:31. > :44:35.newspaper. It suggested an independent Scotland may have to
:44:35. > :44:44.reapply for EU membership. Let's see what the Scottish Secretary
:44:44. > :44:48.Has the British Government sought legal advice on Scotland's status?
:44:48. > :44:55.We've taken legal advice and we publish the fact we took it some
:44:55. > :44:59.weeks ago. We have an initial view that the most likely scenario is
:44:59. > :45:03.that the rest of the UK would continue as the member state,
:45:03. > :45:08.Scotland would have to apply and Scotland would have to negotiate
:45:08. > :45:13.its terms and conditions. That is a huge set of issues for us when we
:45:13. > :45:18.contemplate what is at stake for independence and for businesses in
:45:18. > :45:23.particular, at a time when three- quarters of businesses say they are
:45:23. > :45:28.very worried about independence. Are you saying for British
:45:28. > :45:32.Government has legal advice that if Scotland votes to leave the UK, it
:45:32. > :45:37.is in effect also leaving the European Union and would have to
:45:37. > :45:43.reapply as a new member? Is that the import of the legal advice you
:45:43. > :45:48.have? The advocate general, one of the UK Government's law officers,
:45:48. > :45:52.has made public speeches about this in the last few weeks. We are doing
:45:52. > :45:59.a lot of work on this, we've looked at the international precedents,
:45:59. > :46:04.we've looked at the weight of academic opinion and our initial
:46:04. > :46:09.views of that the most likely scenario is the UK stays as the
:46:09. > :46:14.member state and Scotland would have to apply to join the EU again.
:46:14. > :46:19.How quick and complex a process that is, nobody knows. But the
:46:19. > :46:26.terms and conditions, I think, are the key to this. The UK has a lot
:46:26. > :46:30.of Dr Putts on the euro and other things. Scotland has huge interests
:46:30. > :46:34.in six fishing and agriculture. None of that is certain and all of
:46:34. > :46:40.that is a worry. Forgive me for coming back to the original
:46:40. > :46:45.question. Your second dancer was a little different from the first. --
:46:45. > :46:51.answer. You said it looks as if Scotland would have to reapply. Can
:46:51. > :46:58.I clarified... Have you had divinity Atif British legal advice
:46:58. > :47:02.to that effect or not? Definitive. Can I make the distinction? The
:47:02. > :47:10.First Minister had some difficulty with this a month ago. We have
:47:10. > :47:15.answered a question that we have legal advice within government. On
:47:15. > :47:20.the basis of that, the Advocate- General, one of the law officers of
:47:20. > :47:25.the UK government, has been public set out what we draw from that. We
:47:25. > :47:30.don't comment on whether or not we have taken the advice itself, that
:47:30. > :47:35.his ministerial code that is well established, but people can see we
:47:35. > :47:39.are being clear that the most likely scenario, based on our
:47:39. > :47:48.initial research and consideration, is that the rest of the UK stays in
:47:48. > :47:52.vu you -- he used, Scotland would have to reapply to join the EU.
:47:52. > :47:57.will understand that the most likely scenario, which is your
:47:57. > :48:00.phrase, is very different from saying we've had definitive legal
:48:00. > :48:04.advice from the highest law officers in the land, the best
:48:04. > :48:08.advice this government can get, that Scotland will have to leave
:48:08. > :48:13.and reapply. I don't think you are telling me that this morning, are
:48:13. > :48:17.you? I am saying exactly the same as Jim Wallace has said in public,
:48:17. > :48:20.as I've said to the Scottish Parliament and other places. The
:48:20. > :48:24.distinction between what we are saying and what the Scottish
:48:24. > :48:28.government are saying is that they don't have legal advice and they
:48:28. > :48:33.have stopped all sorts of court proceedings a round that issue. We
:48:33. > :48:39.are looking at the balance of the probabilities. What is the expert
:48:39. > :48:44.opinion? What is the President? We think it is the most likely
:48:44. > :48:47.scenario. Very few people are doing anything different to that. If you
:48:47. > :48:53.are right on the balance of probabilities in Scotland, if it
:48:53. > :49:01.votes to leave the UK, then have to reapply to join the EU, is there
:49:02. > :49:06.any doubt... Surely the run EU would want Scotland to join. Plenty
:49:06. > :49:12.of people would rather see Scotland in and be glad to see the back of
:49:12. > :49:16.England! The point I would make is that it is a serious issue about
:49:17. > :49:21.Scotland's status at that moment, but much more significant will be
:49:21. > :49:25.the terms and conditions of that membership. There's no country that
:49:26. > :49:31.has joined since 2005 which has been able to escape the obligation
:49:31. > :49:35.to adopt the single currency. Likewise, the Shangla knocked out
:49:35. > :49:40.which we have around border controls is one that would have to
:49:40. > :49:44.be specially negotiated. None of that is clear from the way the SNP
:49:44. > :49:48.are putting for their argument, but it's absolutely critical to
:49:48. > :49:53.businesses, individuals and families. We have to get these
:49:53. > :49:57.things nailed down. The uncertainty of those terms and conditions is
:49:57. > :50:04.the big worry for people across the country. One quick question on an
:50:04. > :50:09.unrelated matter. Your role as a Privy Counsellor. The Telegraph
:50:09. > :50:13.newspaper reporting that as part of a system of regulation of the
:50:13. > :50:17.newspapers, David Cameron is considering setting up a new press
:50:17. > :50:24.watchdog by royal charter, which would mean the Privy Council would
:50:24. > :50:29.be involved. Can you confirm that? As you know, since Lord Leveson's
:50:29. > :50:34.report was published, the two parties in the coalition and
:50:34. > :50:37.opposition parties have all been considering their response to that.
:50:37. > :50:41.The specific proposals from each of the parties will be brought forward
:50:41. > :50:46.over the next few weeks and we will look forward to the debate that
:50:46. > :50:52.will ensue. His there discussion that would please the Lib Dems
:50:52. > :50:55.about regulation involving a royal charter? We have got a number of
:50:55. > :51:00.discussions going on between ourselves and the coalition
:51:00. > :51:04.partners. Discussions across Parliament as well. Discussions in
:51:05. > :51:08.Scotland, too. None of the detail is sorted out yet, none of the
:51:08. > :51:12.proposals have got to a point where they are agreed. In the next few
:51:12. > :51:16.weeks we will see that emerge and we will build up a proper debate
:51:16. > :51:24.about the right way forward. Her go inside and get warm! Thank you for
:51:24. > :51:26.joining us. By the man some gloves! And listening to that from our
:51:26. > :51:36.Edinburgh studio is Alyn Smith - he's a Scottish Nationalist Member
:51:36. > :51:39.of the European Parliament. We've always been told, and I've been
:51:39. > :51:44.personally told by Alex Salmond, that there's no question that if
:51:44. > :51:50.Scotland leaves the UK it remains part of the European Union. Without
:51:50. > :51:54.a hiccup. You can't say that any more, can you? Yes, we can. It is
:51:54. > :51:59.really important that we understand the significance of the Edinburgh
:51:59. > :52:02.agreement within this context. Where people... Michael Moore, I
:52:02. > :52:09.lost count of how many caveats he was sticking in to everything he
:52:09. > :52:14.was saying. We need to look at the reality can of how the EU operates.
:52:14. > :52:23.It is an expansionist organisation. This is unprecedented. There's no
:52:23. > :52:26.rule book. The same way we universe's -- reunification with
:52:26. > :52:33.East Germany was impossible, a way will be found. All of the certainty
:52:33. > :52:39.we have, our students are already part... I understand that. You want
:52:39. > :52:43.to stay in, I understand that, that is not the argument. Let me put
:52:43. > :52:47.what the EU Commission letter says. It says, if a territory of the
:52:47. > :52:51.member state ceases to be part of that member state, in other words
:52:51. > :52:55.Scotland if it voted to leave the UK, because it has become an
:52:55. > :53:00.independent state, the treaties would cease to apply to that
:53:00. > :53:04.territory. That is quite clear. You would have to reapply. There's a
:53:04. > :53:09.couple of points I will make. That letter doesn't actually exist and
:53:09. > :53:13.hasn't been signed off by the European Commission. We are seeing
:53:13. > :53:21.a black cops operation by the Scotsman which does it no credit. -
:53:21. > :53:25.- Black operations. The Edinburgh agreement makes very clear that for
:53:25. > :53:28.people of Scotland have a choice to make in 2014 which decides the
:53:28. > :53:33.principle whereupon there is a series of negotiations between
:53:33. > :53:38.Edinburgh and London and the European Commission has made it
:53:38. > :53:42.very clear, six months ago, that the commission will take due
:53:42. > :53:46.cognisance of a negotiated agreement between the two parts of
:53:46. > :53:49.the former UK. Are you claiming this letter doesn't exist and that
:53:49. > :53:56.the Scotsman made it? commission made that very clear
:53:56. > :54:00.yesterday. Are you saying... It has not been signed off. That is
:54:00. > :54:04.different. Are you claiming this letter doesn't exist and the
:54:04. > :54:09.Scotsman made it up? There has been no letter sent and how the Scotsman
:54:09. > :54:14.managed to see that letter. That is not what I've asked. Are you
:54:14. > :54:17.claiming this letter doesn't exist? I've made various calls to Brussels
:54:17. > :54:22.and I've been told of the letters exist in various parts, but it
:54:22. > :54:27.doesn't exist as a unified document. How the Scotsman managed to see
:54:27. > :54:33.various bits out of context is very curious. I think it is called
:54:33. > :54:37.original journalism and getting as good! May be imposed Leveson... You
:54:37. > :54:43.call it black operations, which is why a lot of newspapers don't want
:54:43. > :54:46.to be regulated by people like you. Isn't it perfectly possible, if the
:54:46. > :54:50.commission is right and the Secretary of State for Scotland is
:54:50. > :54:54.right, and I appreciate there were a lot of Pavia to what he said,
:54:54. > :54:58.that if you vote for independence, you'll have to negotiate with
:54:58. > :55:02.London the terms of the divorce and at the same time you will have to
:55:02. > :55:08.be negotiating with Brussels the terms of your re-entry as an
:55:08. > :55:12.independent nation into the EU? Firstly, the use of the word
:55:12. > :55:17.divorce is very emotionally-charged. We are negotiating a new status
:55:17. > :55:21.within the EU. Are we not allowed to use that word? You can if you
:55:22. > :55:25.like. But it is not like for like. We negotiate a new status from
:55:25. > :55:31.within, we are part of the EU presently. There's implications for
:55:31. > :55:36.both sides. Scotland will increase its MEP representation and the UK
:55:36. > :55:40.will lose some MEPs. We are talking about negotiation over the details
:55:40. > :55:44.and the housekeeping. The principle will be decided by the people of
:55:44. > :55:48.Scotland and then we have a period of negotiations where we saw that
:55:48. > :55:52.out. The EU aspects will be as nothing compared to the
:55:52. > :55:57.negotiations that will be happening between Edinburgh and London. The
:55:57. > :56:00.European Commission is based on law and human rights. It will take due
:56:00. > :56:04.copper dickens -- cognisance of the democratic opinion of the people of
:56:04. > :56:08.Scotland foot off thank you very much.
:56:08. > :56:17.Time now to see what else has been hitting the headlines in the last
:56:17. > :56:21.seven days - here's Giles with the In the wake of Leveson, Fleet
:56:21. > :56:29.Street's finest were called in to Number Ten to thrash out some House
:56:29. > :56:32.Rules in a sobering session in the last chance saloon. Meanwhile,
:56:32. > :56:35.Wills and Kate baby joy!!Is it twins?! Less happy news from a
:56:35. > :56:38.different palace - George Osborne told us that along with us, the
:56:38. > :56:43.royal nipper won't be able to rub two silver spoons together until
:56:43. > :56:48.2018. It's wonderfully news, they will make brilliant parents.
:56:48. > :56:51.Britain is heading in the right direction. The road is hard, but we
:56:51. > :56:56.are making progress. Goal gaping for Labour's star
:56:56. > :57:05.striker, but was the Balls in the back of the net? The national
:57:05. > :57:08.deficit is not rising... Is rising. It is not falling. Although there
:57:08. > :57:11.was some good news for the Treasury, when Starbucks says it would
:57:11. > :57:21."coughee" up some more tax. And, talking of good news,
:57:21. > :57:27.
:57:27. > :57:32.Do you think this Budget, and I will call it a budget, will start
:57:32. > :57:35.unravelling this weekend? It is already unravelling. We have the
:57:35. > :57:41.Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph talking about the money tax,
:57:41. > :57:46.talking about how maternity pay will be cut in real terms. Then
:57:46. > :57:52.there rather big figures we were talking about with the IFS. How
:57:52. > :57:56.will they find �27 billion worth of cuts? We have 30 seconds. They
:57:56. > :57:59.always unravel. One trembles for freedom of the press in an
:58:00. > :58:07.independent Scotland after seeing what we just heard. That is the
:58:07. > :58:11.biggest lesson from this week's programme. Black Ops. The other
:58:11. > :58:17.change in Britain is I've never seen a government so far away from
:58:17. > :58:22.the next election not able to get any growth going before that
:58:22. > :58:26.election. They got it wrong. A lot of people have said that for a long
:58:26. > :58:30.time. It is one of the wonderful things about not being attached for
:58:30. > :58:32.of -- to a political party that has been clear to me since the
:58:32. > :58:36.beginning. That's all for today. Thanks to our
:58:36. > :58:39.guests - special thanks to Peter and Mary Ann. I'll be back on BBC
:58:39. > :58:41.One on Sunday with the Sunday Politics, when I'll be talking to