:00:43. > :00:46.Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. Whatever happened
:00:46. > :00:49.to hug a husky? The senior Conservative says the Government is
:00:49. > :00:52.making the wrong decisions on energy policy.
:00:52. > :00:56.MEPs are voting on a more sustainable fisheries policy -
:00:56. > :00:59.could we finally see the end of fishermen simply discarding excess
:00:59. > :01:04.catch? As rail unions mount their
:01:04. > :01:07.traditional Christmas strikes, has anything really changed in the
:01:07. > :01:13.trade union movement? There has been a special visitor to
:01:13. > :01:17.Downing Street, the Queen joined ministers around the Cabinet table.
:01:18. > :01:21.All that in the next hour. With me for the whole programme is Frances
:01:21. > :01:25.O'Grady. She will take over as general secretary of the Trades
:01:25. > :01:31.Union Congress in the New Year, becoming the first female leader of
:01:31. > :01:34.the TUC in its history. Lucky hair! Let's start with the threatened
:01:34. > :01:38.rail strikes over Christmas. Members of the RMT union plan
:01:38. > :01:42.action on Friday on Cross Country trains and ScotRail, and members of
:01:43. > :01:47.the other rail union, ASLEF, working on London Underground, have
:01:47. > :01:52.voted to walk out on Boxing Day, action that is expected to bring
:01:52. > :01:56.the network to a virtual standstill. Frances, the public will think it
:01:56. > :02:00.is the third year in a row that ASDA has called a strike on
:02:00. > :02:07.December 26th, one of the busiest shopping days of the year, just a
:02:07. > :02:11.cynical move? They got a 90% "yes" vote and I think people only ever
:02:12. > :02:15.go on strike when they feel they have a just cause. Two key issues,
:02:15. > :02:19.one, they think that working over the bank holidays should be
:02:19. > :02:24.voluntary, and secondly they want fair reward. They think they can
:02:24. > :02:29.find productivity savings to pay for it. I think the union wants to
:02:29. > :02:35.get back around the table and I hope management do. If you say that
:02:35. > :02:39.these are two key issues for the union, the fact that drivers are
:02:39. > :02:42.rostered to work in all bank holidays, as people are in many
:02:42. > :02:47.other unions. What happens if nobody volunteers if it is
:02:47. > :02:51.voluntary? It seems like there was not a problem with covering those
:02:51. > :02:56.shifts. Managements have overestimated the number of workers
:02:56. > :03:00.needed and it can be done on a voluntary basis. I think it is
:03:00. > :03:05.about our train drivers, like any other workers with families at home,
:03:05. > :03:10.can they do it on a voluntary basis, sorted out in a sensible manner? I
:03:10. > :03:13.hope they can. These groups of workers are in a unique position.
:03:13. > :03:19.Most other employees would not have the power to withdraw their labour
:03:19. > :03:23.in this way and caused such widespread disruption, and the
:03:23. > :03:28.victims are workers themselves, who don't enjoy those same terms and
:03:28. > :03:33.conditions. What do you say to them? We have seen enormous public
:03:33. > :03:37.sympathy for rail workers, and in particular... What, striking on
:03:38. > :03:42.days like Boxing Day? I think the public understand that all working
:03:42. > :03:47.families are being hit unfairly, inequality is growing. Lots of
:03:47. > :03:50.areas have had pay freezes, it is not fair that those at the top or
:03:50. > :03:55.shareholder should be getting rewards and the workers do not get
:03:55. > :03:59.their fair share. This is all this is about. But the point is they are
:03:59. > :04:03.hitting workers who are not at the top, other people like themselves
:04:03. > :04:07.on a day where they would like to go shopping or they want to go to
:04:07. > :04:12.work themselves. They are not on big salaries and don't have the
:04:12. > :04:17.power to withdraw their labour in the same way. Do you not see the
:04:17. > :04:21.inequity? I think everybody wants to see this dispute sorted, not
:04:21. > :04:25.least rail workers themselves, but it has to be done fairly. You don't
:04:25. > :04:29.get a 90% "yes" vote unless people feel very strongly they are not
:04:29. > :04:35.being treated fairly. But rail workers and tube drivers get paid a
:04:35. > :04:40.decent salary, in a lot of people's eyes. Most people agree that all
:04:40. > :04:44.workers should get a fair pay for a fair day's work. It is about how we
:04:44. > :04:48.sort out these problems and whether management can be flexible as well
:04:48. > :04:55.as the workforce full spot a you think it is fair to ballot for
:04:55. > :05:00.strikes, have only been two days of discussions over this issue?
:05:00. > :05:03.Two days of discussion has been reported, then a strike is called.
:05:03. > :05:10.A lot of discussions happen informally before the formal talks.
:05:10. > :05:13.But I know that I spoke to the leader of the train drivers' this
:05:13. > :05:19.morning and he hopes that management will come back to the
:05:19. > :05:23.table with a fair offer. You will be looking at these issues
:05:23. > :05:28.in the round, do you think there is a perception that that is what it
:05:28. > :05:33.is all about, to be a member of the trade union is just about calling
:05:33. > :05:38.strikes? The perception out there, that is what people see. I am not
:05:38. > :05:43.sure it is. Strike action is at a low level in the UK, historically,
:05:43. > :05:48.not least because it is very difficult to call a lawful strike
:05:48. > :05:53.without being dragged into courts by an employer who can call an
:05:53. > :05:58.injunction if you get a few names or job titles run, something that
:05:58. > :06:02.would not have affected it at all. It is difficult in the UK to take
:06:02. > :06:09.strike action and people only do it when they feel pushed to the limit.
:06:09. > :06:13.In your new role, would you like to see fewer strikes? I would like to
:06:13. > :06:18.see fairer agreements. I would like to see less need for strike action.
:06:18. > :06:23.It is in everybody's interest to sort out issues in a sensible
:06:23. > :06:27.manner, to negotiate their agreement. We know that where you
:06:27. > :06:30.have a happy, motivated workforce, it is good for business.
:06:30. > :06:35.We will be talking about this some more later.
:06:35. > :06:39.Now time for the daily quiz. Today the Queen is visiting Number
:06:39. > :06:44.Ten to attend Cabinet for the first time, but what other big name was
:06:44. > :06:49.in Downing Street last night? Was it the X Factor winner James Arthur,
:06:49. > :06:53.became of Jordan, Father Christmas and his reindeer or rapper Dr Dre?
:06:53. > :06:57.At the end of the show, Frances will give us the correct answer, it
:06:57. > :07:01.she knows it. She has almost an hour to think about it.
:07:01. > :07:06.The greenest government ever, that was the promise David Cameron made
:07:06. > :07:09.at the beginning of this Parliament. But will he deliver? The new energy
:07:09. > :07:13.minister has called to a halt on onshore wind farms. Last week plans
:07:13. > :07:19.were announced for dozens more gas fired power stations as the go-
:07:19. > :07:23.ahead was given for shale gas explode -- exploration, using the
:07:23. > :07:28.controversial fracking technique. The Government's commitment to the
:07:28. > :07:31.green agenda has been questioned today. Setting a target foreign
:07:31. > :07:37.missions from electricity generation has been put off by the
:07:37. > :07:42.Government until 2016. A decision that clearly raises doubts about
:07:42. > :07:46.the depth of the government commitment to accepting the
:07:46. > :07:50.recommendations of the Climate Change Committee. There is a danger
:07:50. > :07:57.that confusing and contradictory messages are being sent out by
:07:57. > :08:00.different parts of governments. On the one hand, backing a big new
:08:00. > :08:06.hunt for gas, and on the other, insisting it can still cut carbon
:08:07. > :08:10.emissions. Tim Yeo joins us now. Why are you acting now? There has
:08:10. > :08:14.obviously been plenty of time to talk about the Energy Bill. Do you
:08:14. > :08:18.think you will be successful? don't know if we will be successful,
:08:18. > :08:22.but we have the second reading of the Energy Bill tomorrow. They need
:08:22. > :08:27.has come about because of the mixed messages we are getting from the
:08:27. > :08:30.Government. On one side they say we are absolutely committed to a
:08:30. > :08:35.reduction in carbon emissions from electricity and are willing to set
:08:36. > :08:41.the target that I once in 2016, but on the other hand a couple of weeks
:08:41. > :08:44.ago on the day of the Autumn Statement we had a new gas strategy
:08:44. > :08:51.and is itching possibly 37 gigawatts of new gas-fired capacity,
:08:51. > :08:56.so I think investors are confused. But it is about to mix, spreading
:08:56. > :09:00.the risk because I don't want to speak on behalf of them but clearly
:09:00. > :09:05.the Government agrees that you can't agree -- rely on just one
:09:05. > :09:10.energy source. Absolutely, we need the mix, and I hope nuclear will be
:09:10. > :09:14.part of that but it is taking a long time. We need a mix involving
:09:14. > :09:19.some gas. If we can get domestic gas because of the shale gas
:09:19. > :09:23.reserves, that reduces the dependence on imports. But we need
:09:23. > :09:28.low carbon technologies as well, which are getting much cheaper all
:09:28. > :09:33.the time. The Government has agreed a support framework that the
:09:33. > :09:37.Treasury has signed off on the money that will be available for
:09:37. > :09:41.the next eight years. But now there is uncertainty in the equation and
:09:41. > :09:44.some investors are confused. Treasury is cutting funding to all
:09:44. > :09:48.departments. George Osborne before the Autumn Statement had already
:09:48. > :09:55.made it clear that he felt that in these dire economic circumstances
:09:55. > :09:59.it would have to affect energy policy to? I'm not criticising the
:09:59. > :10:03.settlement given. The support for low carbon energy does not come
:10:03. > :10:10.from the taxpayer, it comes from energy consumers. It goes through
:10:10. > :10:13.to your electricity bill. But the figure itself is acceptable. The
:10:13. > :10:17.problem is why we have to waste another four years to see what
:10:17. > :10:21.carbon intensity target the Government wants to have on
:10:21. > :10:24.electricity generation. Their statutory independent adviser, the
:10:24. > :10:30.Climate Change Committee, whose advice has always been accepted so
:10:30. > :10:34.far, has suggested it be set. My committee said the target should be
:10:34. > :10:37.set and now the Government says we need to wait for years. We think
:10:37. > :10:41.the danger is that will deter investors and we won't get the
:10:41. > :10:50.extra capacity that Britain needs. Do you think renewable energy, we
:10:50. > :10:55.can talk about onshore into it -- wind farms etc, will resupply the
:10:55. > :10:59.energy if there is a gap while we go around with nuclear? It will
:10:59. > :11:06.supply part of it, not all of it. It is close to 10% of the Energy
:11:06. > :11:09.last year which was generated by renewables. Consistently? Over the
:11:09. > :11:14.year as a whole, yes. The expectation is that figure will
:11:15. > :11:17.rise, there is a commitment to increasing that. Do you think the
:11:17. > :11:22.Energy Minister is committed? hope he will show during the
:11:22. > :11:26.passage of the Bill, which he will take to Parliament, that he is
:11:26. > :11:31.committed to government policy. said that we have had enough
:11:31. > :11:36.onshore wind farms. Onshore wind farms is only one element. We are
:11:36. > :11:41.talking about energy from waste, celeb, offshore wind, tidal, wave
:11:41. > :11:45.power, there is an awful lot of alternatives. We need to try to
:11:45. > :11:51.deploy them at greater scale so the costs can come down, otherwise we
:11:51. > :11:56.will give up the leadership of this to other countries, we need to back
:11:56. > :12:00.this more unequivocally. How keen do you think families are to pay
:12:00. > :12:04.green energy taxes? I think all families are very concerned about
:12:04. > :12:10.energy bills. They don't like a lack of transparency over the green
:12:10. > :12:14.energy taxes? We need to make changes to wake -- to the way the
:12:14. > :12:19.big six operate. But in the longer term we will achieve a lower
:12:19. > :12:23.consumer price if we have a Ben Nevis of technologies. Do you think
:12:23. > :12:29.that is right, up bearing in mind that families are having to deal
:12:29. > :12:34.with high energy bills. --? Is this the time to talk about continued
:12:34. > :12:39.investment in renewables when gas could be quicker and maybe are
:12:39. > :12:43.cheaper? I think we need to mix, I think Tim is absolutely right.
:12:43. > :12:46.Unless we have the target in the bill, we will not get the
:12:46. > :12:52.investment uncertainty needed not just in terms of energy policy but
:12:52. > :12:57.in terms of jobs. There is real potential in renewables which is
:12:57. > :13:01.secure, because you don't have to imported, but let's have it as part
:13:01. > :13:06.of an active industrial policy. We get steel and cement sourced in
:13:06. > :13:11.Britain, we get them built in Britain so we can create decent
:13:11. > :13:15.jobs and apprenticeships. How split is the Government on energy? Their
:13:15. > :13:20.policy is pretty clear, there has been big negotiation inside
:13:20. > :13:24.Whitehall. Yes, between the Conservatives and the Lib Dems.
:13:24. > :13:27.Between the Department for Energy and some other departments. Many
:13:27. > :13:32.aspects are very positive, they have changed the bills
:13:32. > :13:37.substantially since the draft Bill, some of those in change -- in line
:13:37. > :13:40.with my own committee's recommendations. We head Danny
:13:40. > :13:46.Alexander at the Lib Dem conference in October explicitly committing to
:13:46. > :13:50.exactly this target. It is the advice from their official advisers
:13:50. > :13:54.and my committee and also from a large number of investors. All we
:13:54. > :14:01.are saying is bring the date forward, don't put it off for four
:14:01. > :14:07.years. Your critics might say you have a vested interest because you
:14:07. > :14:12.are the chairmen of some renewables and electric vehicles companies?
:14:12. > :14:15.The truth is I formed my views 20 years ago when I was the minister
:14:15. > :14:20.dealing with climate change. My views have been expressed many
:14:20. > :14:23.times publicly in the last 20 years. My financial interests were only
:14:23. > :14:28.acquired after I left the front bench, so any suggestion I formed
:14:28. > :14:32.my views because of my interests, it is the other way around. I
:14:32. > :14:37.believe passionately in Britain being a leader for climate change,
:14:37. > :14:43.I believe there is an economic advantage for those countries who
:14:44. > :14:47.decarbonised. I want to see Britain as a leader in this green and were
:14:48. > :14:52.200 years ago. Think of the union leader and a big,
:14:52. > :14:56.burly bloke with a megaphone might spring to mind. But in January the
:14:56. > :15:00.movement will be led by a woman, our guest, Frances O'Grady. These
:15:00. > :15:05.days almost half of all union members are female, a proportion
:15:05. > :15:08.likely to increase as overall numbers decline. But can one woman
:15:08. > :15:12.at the top of first years of male domination and how does she ensure
:15:12. > :15:22.that the interests of the male members are finally properly
:15:22. > :15:28.
:15:28. > :15:34.The tradition a image of the union leader. Big men, out of shape but
:15:34. > :15:38.definitely men. This is the TUC headquarters in London. Some of the
:15:38. > :15:41.great fig groufrs Labour movement have made this place their power
:15:42. > :15:46.base. Now, from January next year and for the first time in its
:15:46. > :15:52.history, the General Secretary will be a woman. But will change at the
:15:52. > :15:57.top change the way the union movement treats its female members?
:15:57. > :16:02.Bring back the railways. Women make up up almost half a movement and
:16:02. > :16:06.they are a growing presence in a organisation whose numbers are
:16:06. > :16:09.falling. Unions haven't had a great reputation for taking them or their
:16:09. > :16:15.interests seriously. Even though who have made to it the top didn't
:16:15. > :16:22.find it easy When I started working for a trade union it took me ages
:16:22. > :16:28.to get a job. When I started working, I was the only woman in an
:16:28. > :16:33.Al male team. It was quite a macho environment, it was one that still,
:16:33. > :16:41.I think reflected a culture that said that it was OK to go out
:16:41. > :16:45.drinking at lunchtime, it was very much who was loudest got the most
:16:45. > :16:51.attention, it was very different to the environment we work in now.
:16:51. > :16:55.Even so, only 15 out of the 54 unions affiliated to the TUC are
:16:56. > :16:59.led by women. Something friend of the Labour movement believe is a
:16:59. > :17:04.problem. The public impression that union leaders we see most of the
:17:04. > :17:08.time are late middle aged men, pretty aggressive, up for a fight,
:17:08. > :17:13.not the kind of image that is going to be seductive to getting more
:17:13. > :17:19.women in and they need more women, more members, from the private
:17:19. > :17:25.sector, as well as the state sector. So can one woman at the top make a
:17:25. > :17:28.difference? Frances has very little power in that she is a chair of a
:17:28. > :17:32.council. She can't tell any other union what to do. She can't tell
:17:32. > :17:39.them who to elect or thousand have better candidates for their
:17:39. > :17:43.elections. She can't tell a union not to go on strike, even if it is
:17:43. > :17:48.unrbl reasonable and does great damage to the movement. She only
:17:48. > :17:51.has her own power of persuasion. And that will have to be pretty
:17:51. > :17:54.powerful No-one should pretend that trade unions haven't got a
:17:54. > :17:57.difficult time. We have falling memberships, and we have a
:17:57. > :18:01.difficult economy. Both those things have to be dealt with. That
:18:01. > :18:04.is something that she will have to head up and she will have to find I
:18:04. > :18:10.think, innovative and new ways through. Not simply saying that
:18:10. > :18:14.what we will do is rely on the mantras of the 6070s, 90 and the
:18:14. > :18:19.last decade. She will have to find a new way forward for unions to be
:18:19. > :18:23.the relevant voice for a different work population, and one where
:18:23. > :18:28.women have a central role. unions evolve will be usual for all
:18:28. > :18:32.their members whatever their general da. But -- gender, but the
:18:32. > :18:39.key to their relevance will be woman and not just the new one at
:18:39. > :18:42.the top. And Frances O'Grady is still with us. I am joined by
:18:42. > :18:48.Nadine Dorys who hoped to be Conservative MP again soon? I hope
:18:48. > :18:54.so. What is happening? It is all with the Chief Whip, I am sure it
:18:54. > :18:59.will be resolved shortly. Hopefully. Right. So for the New Year. We will
:18:59. > :19:03.see. Let us get back to Frances O'Grady. It is no longer all men in
:19:04. > :19:08.flat caps, how are trade unions changing? As you heard on the clip,
:19:08. > :19:14.round half of our membership are women, it is 50-50. Three in ten of
:19:14. > :19:18.our leaders are women, that is a better record than in the boardroom,
:19:18. > :19:22.or indeed round the Cabinet table. So, unions have been changing
:19:22. > :19:26.quietly, but in a determined fashion, we are there to represent
:19:26. > :19:30.all working people from all walks of life. We heard also in the film
:19:30. > :19:34.you will have to find innovative ways of doing it, how are you going
:19:35. > :19:39.to do it? Working people are having an incredibly tough time at the
:19:39. > :19:44.moment, we know that family budgets are at breaking point, we have got
:19:44. > :19:49.2.5 million people unemployed, a four year pay freeze for Britain,
:19:49. > :19:54.by the end of next year, with benefits and services under attack
:19:54. > :19:57.too. So we know it is a tough time. My job is to make the argument that
:19:57. > :20:03.the Government needs to change course, particularly because women
:20:03. > :20:08.are taking 70% of the pain of those cuts. You mean changing course in
:20:08. > :20:11.terms of reducing the rate of cuts?. We need a change from this policy
:20:11. > :20:18.of austerity. The economy is tanking, borrowing would be up if
:20:18. > :20:22.it wasn't for the sale of G4. And the Chancellor hasn't met his own
:20:23. > :20:28.targets so it is not working, we need to focus on jobs and growth
:20:28. > :20:31.and fair treatment. And frankly, instead of attacking people's hard-
:20:31. > :20:35.won employment right, we need to get to the root causes of the crash
:20:35. > :20:42.and start reforming and getting tough regulation for the banking
:20:42. > :20:49.and finance industry. And tax justice. Now the good news. The
:20:49. > :20:53.deficit is down by 25%. I think that has been a massive achievement.
:20:53. > :20:58.Some of the announcement which have taken place, such as raising the
:20:58. > :21:01.personal tax allowance, 60% of women benefit from that, in terms
:21:01. > :21:08.of unemployment, we have the lowest unemployment rate particularly
:21:08. > :21:14.among youth we have had in ten year, there is, my constituency, freeze
:21:14. > :21:18.on council tax for two years, freeze on fuel duty, they are
:21:18. > :21:22.benefiting people. I think what we are seeing is a change in culture.
:21:22. > :21:30.I understand Frances, where some of your criticism comes from, but the
:21:30. > :21:35.change of culture is this. People who work are being rewarded. We see
:21:35. > :21:41.250, sorry 240,000 more women are in work than were between March and
:21:41. > :21:44.May 2010. That is quarter of a more million work are back in work. I
:21:44. > :21:49.know that the counter argument is that benefits have frozen. That is
:21:49. > :21:55.because there is a culture change. And pay has the frozen. Work pay,
:21:55. > :22:00.benefits don't. We have to have a situation where by people who work
:22:00. > :22:05.earn more than people on benefit, that wasn't the case before. Why do
:22:05. > :22:11.you think many young working woman don't want to join a union? I was a
:22:11. > :22:15.member of a union. You were. I was. What did it do for you? It didn't
:22:15. > :22:20.do anything for me. But personally, but I felt when I went into the NHS
:22:20. > :22:25.it was the thing to do. Everybody joined the union. I don't think
:22:25. > :22:28.that, there is that, that kind of, that culture isn't imbued in the
:22:28. > :22:35.workplace, I think it is because employment practises are fairer
:22:35. > :22:40.than they used to be, health and safety is better, and I don't know
:22:40. > :22:45.there is that imperative need to join a union. It is not relevant in
:22:45. > :22:50.the way? It is. I have a massive opportunity coming in to lead the
:22:50. > :22:55.TUC. We know there are millions of workers who want to join and union
:22:55. > :22:59.and need to be asked. Why aren't they joining? Membership is not
:22:59. > :23:03.very high. The women and young people who say they want to join
:23:03. > :23:07.but don't know how, perhaps no expense of unions in their family.
:23:07. > :23:13.But, I mean, I have to come back, because... What do you mean they
:23:13. > :23:17.don't know how. They go on the internet and put TUC in. Thank you
:23:17. > :23:21.for that advert. Ordinary working people are supporting what unions
:23:21. > :23:25.are saying on austerity. Nobody believed the cuts were fair. Now
:23:25. > :23:29.they can say they are not working. That is the political message. What
:23:29. > :23:33.power do you have to change people's lives? It is fine there is
:23:33. > :23:37.a political stance you are making, you are against austerity, but
:23:37. > :23:41.beyond that, what are you doing that will help those workers?
:23:41. > :23:45.have thousands and thousands of reps round the country n workplaces,
:23:45. > :23:51.we know that where workplaces are yuen niceed workers are more likely
:23:51. > :23:55.to get family friendly agreements. Better maternity pay, equal pay,
:23:55. > :23:59.holidays and massively important, learning opportunities,
:24:00. > :24:04.especially's They wouldn't have had those rights? People are objecting,
:24:04. > :24:07.I have had this, objecting to the fact there are union workers in
:24:07. > :24:10.Local Authority positions who are paid by the taxpayer and not by the
:24:10. > :24:14.union bus are doing full-time union work. I think that is a negative
:24:14. > :24:18.message for you. I know people resent that. I think there are
:24:18. > :24:25.practises that you possibly need to change, in order to get people to
:24:25. > :24:32.start liking you again, because I know council workers resentful of
:24:32. > :24:37.the fact that taxpayer money pays for Pilgrims, to work full-time and
:24:37. > :24:43.be paid and only do union work. I congratulate you... Do you think it
:24:43. > :24:48.is beneficial to have a woman? think it is fantastic. It is about
:24:48. > :24:54.changing hearts and mind. I think it was.... It would be grate if
:24:54. > :24:58.somebody from a background like you talked about the benefits of trade
:24:58. > :25:02.union membership. There is a suspicion it is back to the 1980s,
:25:02. > :25:06.that people are looking to pick fights with union, they have
:25:06. > :25:12.forgotten union members have changed. They are picking on 50%
:25:12. > :25:16.women. There is no such thing as an irresponsible strike and David
:25:16. > :25:21.Cameron this we are pussy cats, I hope your language and dialogue,
:25:21. > :25:24.because we have the wrong language in politics sometimes, and I hope
:25:24. > :25:29.your language. This is about ordinary working men and women
:25:29. > :25:32.doing a decent job who want fair treatment. I understand that.
:25:32. > :25:35.you think the language is encouraging dialogue with the
:25:35. > :25:38.Government? I think Len is speaking up for his members, and that is
:25:39. > :25:43.ultimately what we are here to do. What do most people want out of
:25:43. > :25:49.life? We want a decent home, a steady job, enough money to look
:25:49. > :25:54.after our families. That is nothing do with language. That is nothing
:25:54. > :25:59.to do... I think unions ailiate a lot of people. Language like no
:25:59. > :26:05.strike is irresponsible. Because they are are democratic. I mean
:26:05. > :26:08.there is a basic principle here, unions civic society organisation,
:26:08. > :26:12.the biggest voluntary organisations in the country and we are
:26:12. > :26:18.democratic membership organisations. You have a responsibility to talk
:26:18. > :26:22.your way... Can I just, to go back to the Polly Toynbee point. She
:26:22. > :26:25.said you don't have that much power, it is the head of the individual
:26:25. > :26:29.union, she says as the head of the TUC, you can't tell a union not to
:26:29. > :26:36.go on strike or choose a different leader, that does limit what you
:26:36. > :26:42.can do? I have drawn my power from my members. You can't tell them
:26:42. > :26:47.what to do. In a democracy, you have to persuade people, I am not a
:26:47. > :26:50.dictator, no union leader is a dictators awe of us draw on our
:26:50. > :26:55.strength from our membership. That is what democracy is about. Thank
:26:55. > :26:59.you very much. Before you go, because we are going to come on the
:26:59. > :27:05.this now. There is a suggestion that Andrew Mitchell may not have
:27:05. > :27:09.called a police officer a pleb. Do you think he was sacked too hastily.
:27:09. > :27:17.Andrew Mitchell on the police officer? It was four weeks. Do you
:27:17. > :27:19.think in the end they should have waited longer? I am sure there was
:27:20. > :27:26.a thorough investigation went on and that the appropriate resolution
:27:26. > :27:30.was met at that time. Sorry. Put you on the spot there of so the
:27:30. > :27:35.Andrew Mitchell plebgate saga and the manner it came to light rols on.
:27:35. > :27:38.The former Chief Whip was forced to resign rather than sacked,
:27:38. > :27:44.following an altercation with police after they told him he would
:27:44. > :27:48.have to dismount his bike. A Metropolitan Police officer was
:27:48. > :27:55.arrested at the weekend on suspicion of misconduct in a public
:27:55. > :28:01.officer. A Channel 4 programme will make further claims about the
:28:01. > :28:03.incident of It is an ongoing criminal investigation and it is
:28:03. > :28:07.supervised by the Independent Police Complaints Commission. So I
:28:07. > :28:11.hope people understand that. I also hope people understand this is not
:28:11. > :28:15.all that, there is more to this than meets the eye. I am
:28:15. > :28:22.constrained in explaining that. I hope when people hear the full
:28:22. > :28:25.story they will support what we have done. I am joined by Gary
:28:25. > :28:29.O'Donoghue. How does this change the event at the Downing Street
:28:29. > :28:33.gate? Well, interestingly, Bernard Hogan-Howe, in another interview
:28:33. > :28:38.this morning, has said he doesn't think it does change the account
:28:38. > :28:41.that the original officers gave of what happened between them and the
:28:41. > :28:45.then Chief Whip Andrew Mitchell. This third officer that we are
:28:46. > :28:49.talking about, who was arrested at the weekend, the IPCC, the watchdog
:28:49. > :28:54.yesterday said that he had claimed to be there and to be a witness of
:28:54. > :28:59.that, to an unnamed MP. Now, Bernard Hogan-Howe has said that
:28:59. > :29:04.that officer wasn't there, and that therefore, anything he has been
:29:04. > :29:07.investigated over isn't in connection, or doesn't cast doubt
:29:07. > :29:12.on what the original officer said about what happened. Reading
:29:12. > :29:16.between the line, we are looking at two issue, one is the leaking of
:29:16. > :29:21.the police log given to a newspaper four or five days after the
:29:21. > :29:25.original incident in September. That seems to be where the IPCC is
:29:25. > :29:28.supervising the inquiry and where this officer seems to be being
:29:28. > :29:34.questioned. There is a separate issue about what happened on that
:29:34. > :29:40.day, and of course Andrew Mitchell denies he used those words, and
:29:40. > :29:44.told these officers that they ought to know their place, he denies that.
:29:44. > :29:49.But what the Met commissioner is saying these developments don't
:29:49. > :29:54.really change that account, although he was eelliptical to it,
:29:54. > :29:58.he says there is more than meets the eye. Who knows what that means.
:29:58. > :30:02.It prompts do you ask more question, in terms of what he nose or doesn't
:30:02. > :30:06.know. Has there been any response from Andrew Mitchell or his
:30:06. > :30:10.friends? Not really. There was yesterday, when the IPCC made clear
:30:10. > :30:14.what they were doing, Mr Mitchell did do an interview and he did say
:30:14. > :30:18.again, that he questioned still, and continued to question the
:30:18. > :30:22.original police log, so the original account of what was said,
:30:22. > :30:27.which the officers filed after that incident. He continues to question
:30:27. > :30:30.that and continues to deny that that was said, but we are no nearer
:30:30. > :30:35.what happened after that and what the involvement of this other
:30:35. > :30:41.officer was, he has been arrested and could face charge, so I think
:30:41. > :30:48.it is trick you for us to speculate too much on that and may be a bit
:30:48. > :30:52.tricky for the Commission tore Fisherman must stick to strict
:30:52. > :30:56.quotas set by the European Union restricting the number of fish they
:30:56. > :31:02.can land. It has led to them being frustrated, and conservationists
:31:02. > :31:06.are not happy either. Fish is the hot topic in Brussels today, but
:31:06. > :31:11.what are the politics? No prizes for suggesting fish can
:31:11. > :31:16.cause a stink, but as EU ministers meet in Brussels, there is a whiff
:31:16. > :31:21.of argument in the air. The EU wants stricter quotas are how much
:31:21. > :31:26.cod is caught and to restrict the time that fishermen spend at sea.
:31:26. > :31:30.Hard-pressed UK fishermen are gutted. In 2006, cod stocks reached
:31:30. > :31:35.the lowest-ever levels and a response was the EU cod recovery
:31:35. > :31:39.plan, meaning cod quotas, tough fines for catching cod illegally
:31:39. > :31:44.and the controversial discarding of card, a fish which dies when
:31:44. > :31:48.brought to surface waters weather caused accidentally or deliberately.
:31:48. > :31:52.The Government sees significant rises in stocks of the fish as a
:31:52. > :31:57.reason to relax controls. The EU says that tougher controls for the
:31:57. > :32:01.next few years will make cod sustainable into the future. There
:32:01. > :32:04.is a worry that they lack the flexibility could make the UK
:32:04. > :32:08.fishing industry unsustainable. Ever since the expenses scandal,
:32:08. > :32:12.people have said there was something about politics which is
:32:12. > :32:15.fishy, but what about the policy of fishermen?
:32:15. > :32:19.Politics may mean that decisions you have very little to do with
:32:19. > :32:23.fish management, because MEPs have had more of the state since the
:32:23. > :32:27.Lisbon Treaty and there is talk that if the EU ministers decide to
:32:27. > :32:31.go for cuts, they may face a legal challenge by the European
:32:31. > :32:38.Parliament. It seems MEPs want to show who is boss.
:32:38. > :32:41.I am joined from breast -- Brussels by the Liberal Democrat MEP and
:32:41. > :32:46.founder of Fish for the Future Chris Davies, and David Amess, who
:32:46. > :32:51.sits on the all-party Parliamentary fisheries group joins me in the
:32:51. > :32:56.studio. Chris, did you get what you wanted? We are very much in the
:32:56. > :33:00.wake to bringing forward to a reform of the fisheries policy.
:33:00. > :33:03.Fisheries ministers across Europe meet each December and have done
:33:03. > :33:07.for decades and try to please the fishermen by just looking at the
:33:07. > :33:12.next season, trying to have quotas which pleased the fishermen but
:33:12. > :33:16.ultimately lead to fish stocks going down and down. We have
:33:17. > :33:22.devastated the seas as a reports of bud as a result of this short-term
:33:22. > :33:26.approach. I thought to be cod stocks had gone up? There are many
:33:26. > :33:30.fisheries across Europe, in some places measures were put in and
:33:30. > :33:35.stocks are recovering, but in general they are still declining
:33:35. > :33:39.across Europe. We are putting forward an obligation on ministers
:33:39. > :33:44.and the European Commission to obey the scientific advice and insure
:33:44. > :33:49.that stocks recover. If we have more fish, we have more jobs for
:33:49. > :33:53.fishermen. They have voted in favour of that? I have come
:33:53. > :33:58.straight from the committee can have devoted on the amendments,
:33:58. > :34:03.there is a two-hour break while we check the details of 500 boats
:34:03. > :34:08.which have taken place this morning or afternoon and we will vote to
:34:08. > :34:13.introduce an obligation to land all fish that our courts and to
:34:13. > :34:17.introduce this legal obligation to restore and rebuild fish stocks.
:34:17. > :34:21.This sounds eminently sensible, instead of the short term look,
:34:21. > :34:27.season to season, by putting his obligation of ministers and
:34:27. > :34:31.countries, fish stocks will slowly rise, to the benefit of everybody?
:34:31. > :34:37.I absolutely support what the EU has done about discards and
:34:37. > :34:40.sustainability, but the 25 years the Common Fisheries Policy has
:34:40. > :34:45.been an absolutes that -- shambles. Our British fishermen have followed
:34:45. > :34:50.the letter of the law and European partners have not. I support our
:34:50. > :34:56.British minister fighting for British fishermen, and I'm very,
:34:56. > :35:01.very concerned about the cod stock. I don't want to see this go ahead
:35:01. > :35:06.with a 20% reduction, I want it frozen. British fishermen have done
:35:06. > :35:10.what they have been asked to do, and Spanish have not? There is some
:35:10. > :35:15.truth in this, but you only have to look at the Shetland Islands, where
:35:15. > :35:19.we had a big case last year were �1 million fines were being handed out
:35:19. > :35:23.against fishermen and battery processes where they had been
:35:23. > :35:29.diverting fish in order to avoid the quota. It was flagrant abuse
:35:29. > :35:34.and ended up in the courts. We have to ensure that the fish stocks
:35:35. > :35:38.increase, fishermen have to respect the quotas, not just in Britain but
:35:39. > :35:45.across Europe. That is why we have a new fisheries control agency with
:35:45. > :35:47.British, Irish and French inspectors working together. People
:35:47. > :35:51.with 20 years of experience or more at the docks, who know every trick
:35:51. > :35:56.in the book, working together to pool experience and make sure the
:35:56. > :36:01.cheats are stopped. Them in the end, you'll be working towards the
:36:02. > :36:06.common good? But I am a British politician and I will back British
:36:06. > :36:12.fishermen? Even if it will be back in the long term? I think it should
:36:12. > :36:15.be done gradually until 2015. Yet again we will follow the law and
:36:15. > :36:19.our European partners will not. Chris Davies says that there will
:36:19. > :36:24.be new policies and UN forces meaning that fishermen in other
:36:24. > :36:28.countries will not be able to bypass this. We need clear dates
:36:28. > :36:33.and we want to know how the scheme will work in detail, the present
:36:33. > :36:37.scheme is not working. In Leigh-on- Sea where we supply the best fish
:36:37. > :36:41.in the world, very important for not only the under 10 metre vessel
:36:41. > :36:46.but the over 10 metre vessels. We have 28 families whose lives depend
:36:46. > :36:53.on how much fish they catch, they are being crucified at the moment.
:36:53. > :36:57.What do you say, Chris? Everyone looks at the small-scale fishermen,
:36:57. > :37:03.the under 10 metre boats. That has nothing to do with the European
:37:03. > :37:07.Union. The European Union decides the quota for every country, it is
:37:07. > :37:13.up to which governments to decide how the share will be split between
:37:13. > :37:17.the �25 million trawl a working in the North Atlantic and the small
:37:17. > :37:23.port -- small boats. I don't know there has ever been a debate in the
:37:23. > :37:27.House of Commons about how that is divided. But each January, our
:37:27. > :37:32.Minister meets with the vested interests and decides which scale
:37:32. > :37:37.be small-scale fishermen will get, often it is tiny, around 4%. Surely
:37:37. > :37:43.you need to bring that to the House of Commons? You need to be having a
:37:43. > :37:47.bat in terms of how the spoils will be divided up? Three weeks ago a
:37:47. > :37:52.Westminster court, -- Westminster Hall, my colleague was responding
:37:52. > :37:58.to a debate for Members of Parliament with fisheries in their
:37:58. > :38:03.constituency. Did the small fishermen get what they wanted?
:38:03. > :38:08.ministers said he would do wall he could to adjust the situation. I
:38:08. > :38:13.think the European Union rules and regulations are key in this issue.
:38:13. > :38:18.Every British politician must fight for the rights of British fishermen
:38:18. > :38:25.as far as our involvement with the European Union is concerned. I
:38:25. > :38:29.emphasise again, we follow the law at the moment and Europeans do not.
:38:30. > :38:34.That is simply not true. You can't point the finger at Denmark,
:38:34. > :38:37.Scandinavia or Germany and say they are breaking the law. Richard
:38:37. > :38:41.Benyon is playing a first-class role in building up an alliance
:38:41. > :38:45.between reform-minded countries in order to change the policy, I hope
:38:45. > :38:50.we are doing the same in the European Parliament. That is good
:38:50. > :38:55.news, but until he returns home I can't get a feel a bit, perhaps he
:38:55. > :38:59.has won a great victory. It sounds like we will have a legally binding
:38:59. > :39:04.targets, whichever way, when we hear the rest of the boats. Perhaps
:39:04. > :39:10.we will get more from Chris Davies later. 20.
:39:10. > :39:14.What is a fair wage for an hour's work? The minimum wage of �6.19? Or
:39:14. > :39:21.the higher living wage of over �1 more outside London? A growing
:39:21. > :39:24.number of employers are plumping for the living wage, as Sunday
:39:24. > :39:27.Politics West Midlands reporter Tom Turrell discovered.
:39:27. > :39:34.How much do you need to earn for a basic standard of living?
:39:34. > :39:38.Increasingly, it seems the minimum wage is not enough. Elaine is one
:39:38. > :39:42.of more than 2500 workers at Birmingham City Council now
:39:42. > :39:47.receiving what is known as the living wage, in a policy aimed at
:39:47. > :39:53.putting a bit more money in the pockets of its lowest-paid workers.
:39:53. > :39:58.I get �50 a month more, which is a lot of money. To some people it
:39:58. > :40:03.might not be, but to low-paid workers, �50 is a lot of money, for
:40:03. > :40:08.me, anyway. What is it all about? You could be
:40:08. > :40:15.forgiven for thinking we already have a statutory minimum wage, and
:40:15. > :40:23.you are right. It is currently �6.19 an hour. But campaigners are
:40:23. > :40:27.pushing employers to pay the living wage, �7.45, which is a whole �1.26
:40:27. > :40:31.more. Almost 100 organisations nationwide have committed to paying
:40:31. > :40:36.a living wage. Many of them are charities and local authorities. In
:40:36. > :40:40.the past few weeks, Labour-run councils in Stoke-on-Trent and
:40:40. > :40:46.Newcastle-under-Lyme signed up to it. And in London, Boris Johnson
:40:46. > :40:51.has announced the living wage for workers will increase to �8.55 an
:40:51. > :40:56.hour. Across the country, more and more councils are looking at upping
:40:56. > :41:00.pay. One of those is Wyre Forest District Council. We absolutely in
:41:00. > :41:03.support of the living wage, we want to pay people a fair rate for their
:41:03. > :41:08.services and make sure what we pay them make sure they can live. We
:41:08. > :41:12.think the living wage is absolutely the right thing for us.
:41:12. > :41:16.Here at Top Barn Farm on the outskirts of Worcester, the
:41:16. > :41:20.Christmas trade is in full flow. Seasonal workers are in high demand.
:41:20. > :41:24.But much like when the minimum wage was brought in in 1999, the
:41:24. > :41:28.response from some businesses to the living wage is less glad
:41:28. > :41:32.tidings and more baa humbug. Margins are very tight at the
:41:32. > :41:39.moment. Our labour bill is very high. If we were told to increase
:41:39. > :41:44.that by 20% it would have serious implications. I'm not sure what the
:41:44. > :41:49.future of growing our crops would be. The farm's grotto is pulling in
:41:49. > :41:53.the punters, but if the living wage were to become law, it could see
:41:53. > :41:59.staff pay rise by a 5th, something businesses like this feel is a gift
:41:59. > :42:03.they simply can't afford to give. Frances O'Grady of the TUC is still
:42:03. > :42:08.here, and we are joined by Andrew Lilico of Europe Economics. Frances,
:42:08. > :42:12.is the living -- if the living wage is the level that people can
:42:13. > :42:17.support themselves, why not make the minimum wage that level?
:42:17. > :42:20.think the real value of the living wage is it is looking industry by
:42:20. > :42:25.industry. We know there are industries like food production,
:42:25. > :42:30.construction, banking and finance where it would add less than 1% to
:42:30. > :42:34.the pay bill to take everybody up to at least the living wage, they
:42:35. > :42:39.can afford it. There might be other industries where we need to phase
:42:39. > :42:43.it in in a sensible manner, and collective bargaining between the
:42:43. > :42:48.unions and employers is the best way. You'd like to make it law,
:42:48. > :42:50.even if you're phasing it in industry by industry? Will have to
:42:51. > :42:57.stop looking at almost the reinvention of wages councils,
:42:57. > :43:01.which were introduced by Winston Churchill but got rid of by the
:43:01. > :43:05.Conservatives in the 90s. We are now at the stage where pay
:43:05. > :43:09.inequality is rising on such a scale that it is not sustainable
:43:10. > :43:14.and ordinary working families are struggling to pay bills. What is
:43:14. > :43:17.your response in principle to the idea of a living wage for
:43:17. > :43:20.industries and councils and departments that want to do it?
:43:20. > :43:23.Some private employers might find it is beneficial to offer more than
:43:23. > :43:27.would otherwise be the market salary because they might think
:43:27. > :43:32.they get more worker by Ian, higher productivity and more loyalty.
:43:32. > :43:36.There is no reason why they should not find that. In respect of the
:43:36. > :43:41.public sector, it is a bad idea. The problem with the living wage,
:43:41. > :43:45.it is a bit like fair trade, on the face of it it seems that you're
:43:45. > :43:49.doing something lies, but you are creating a distortion. When you say
:43:49. > :43:53.to somebody, here is a particular salary, more than the market rate,
:43:53. > :43:58.you are denying the opportunity for somebody else who would be prepared
:43:58. > :44:01.to work for less to undercut them and have the job instead. Another
:44:01. > :44:05.consequence is if you impose a living wage then you compress the
:44:05. > :44:09.pay scale so that people who are more productive are not paid more
:44:09. > :44:14.for more productive activities, so then you try to bid up the other
:44:14. > :44:18.kinds of salaries as well. In the public-sector they wanted to go
:44:18. > :44:22.towards performance-related pay, people can earn more if they are
:44:22. > :44:27.more productive? I think all the evidence is that performance
:44:27. > :44:30.related pay does not improve performance, quite often you end up
:44:30. > :44:37.with the blue-eyed boy syndrome of who is in favour gets the increase
:44:38. > :44:42.rather than fairness. That to motivate everybody. What is fair?
:44:42. > :44:45.If you're trying to encourage your work forced to work better, more
:44:45. > :44:49.productively and harder, why doesn't a mechanism like
:44:49. > :44:53.performance-related pay theirs is a living wage just given out work
:44:53. > :44:59.better? I think what is there is having enough to live on, if you
:44:59. > :45:03.are on poverty pay it is very difficult to look after a family in
:45:03. > :45:08.Britain today. Of course we need to do something about wages inequality,
:45:09. > :45:13.we can't go on. If employers don't pay a living wage, particularly for
:45:13. > :45:17.people still having to support themselves perhaps to benefits, as
:45:17. > :45:22.taxpayers we are subsidising them through welfare? There are two
:45:22. > :45:27.issues, one is that over the past 20 years we have ended up with
:45:27. > :45:31.benefits going very high up the pay scale, so you could find people in
:45:31. > :45:35.the mid- 50,000s a year on salary was still getting supposedly income
:45:35. > :45:39.related benefits. We have borne down on that a bit, we need to take
:45:39. > :45:44.it down further so that fewer people are captured by benefits
:45:44. > :45:48.when they work. Another thing more importance is over the past few
:45:48. > :45:52.years, price rises have consistently outstripped salary
:45:52. > :45:59.rises right across the economy, since about 2006, prices have gone
:45:59. > :46:03.up by around 26%, salaries have gone up 17%. Every year, workers
:46:03. > :46:07.find they are more and more squeezed, which creates pressure at
:46:07. > :46:11.the bottom for the people most vulnerable to say, we just can't
:46:11. > :46:15.live on the salaries. I would urge the TUC and other bodies to
:46:15. > :46:19.complain about the inflation, over the past few years the Government
:46:19. > :46:24.has consistently failed to meet its inflation targets and workers have
:46:24. > :46:31.not volunteer for the salary cuts. Each year people's expectations of
:46:32. > :46:35.inflation are markedly below what It can't be right that employers
:46:35. > :46:40.who can afford pay a decent wage are being subsidised by the
:46:40. > :46:43.taxpayer to the tune of billion, and we can't just remove tax
:46:43. > :46:48.credits from families who are struggling. We need to put pressure
:46:48. > :46:52.on plom employers to pay what they can afford. Absolutely. We are
:46:52. > :46:56.doing it. You are punishing ordinary worker, instead ofen
:46:57. > :47:01.suring that employers fulfil their obligation to pay a fair wage.
:47:01. > :47:06.would be a mistake to underestimate the extent to which the current
:47:06. > :47:10.structure has allowed the UK to get through this crisis with relatively
:47:10. > :47:15.low rices in unemployment. The benefit system provides a subsidy
:47:15. > :47:21.for employment. If you start taking the subsidies, if you start forcing
:47:21. > :47:26.people to raise salaries too high, you could disturb that balance.
:47:26. > :47:31.This is the old chestnut we heard when the minimum baidge was -- wage
:47:31. > :47:35.was introduced. The CBI and others suggested we would loose over one
:47:35. > :47:39.million job, it didn't happen. is scaremongering, those employers
:47:39. > :47:43.who can afford to pay, should pay fair wage, and they should pay
:47:43. > :47:49.their taxes, and be good citizens like everybody elsement Thank you
:47:49. > :47:53.very much. Well, they have demand votes for prisoners and end to
:47:53. > :47:59.control orders and ininterm Nat sentence, the European Court of
:47:59. > :48:03.human rites hasn't had the best press, but how else do was keep to
:48:03. > :48:06.our comoith commitment? The Conservative Party manifesto
:48:06. > :48:09.promised a new British bill of rights to replace the Human Rights
:48:09. > :48:13.Act. Labour and the Liberal Democrats disagreed. When the
:48:13. > :48:17.coalition was formed, the agreement committed the Conservatives and
:48:17. > :48:20.Liberal Democrats to establishing a commission, to investigate the
:48:20. > :48:24.creation of a British Bill of Rights, that incorporates and
:48:24. > :48:30.builds on all our obligations under the European Convention on Human
:48:30. > :48:34.Rights. The Commission was established in March 2011. 20
:48:34. > :48:38.months on it has published its report today, but the splits in the
:48:38. > :48:40.Commission's membership has meant it has failed to come to a
:48:40. > :48:44.unamimous conclusion, and this morning the Justice Secretary Chris
:48:44. > :48:48.Grayling wrote in a newspaper article, that while he would listen
:48:48. > :48:54.to the Commission, he was looking ahead to the next election, and ta
:48:54. > :48:56.he believes it is time to examine how to curtail the involvement of
:48:56. > :49:01.the European Court of Human Rights in UK domestic matters. While we
:49:01. > :49:04.have been on air, Mr Chris Grayling has -- Grayling has been answering
:49:04. > :49:10.questions in the House about a British of Bill of Rights and how
:49:10. > :49:13.it would differ from what is in place. The British Human Rights Act
:49:13. > :49:17.provides protection against cruel and inhumane treatment, includes
:49:17. > :49:23.the right to a fair trial, the right-to-life, the right to family
:49:23. > :49:29.life, freedom of expression and makes ex pli -- explicit that
:49:29. > :49:32.Parliament is sovereign. Can the Justice Secretary be clear the
:49:32. > :49:35.British Human Rights Act he so opposes or the British courts who
:49:35. > :49:40.interpret the law and which of the rights in the British Human Rights
:49:40. > :49:44.Act would not be in his Bill of Rights? Well, Mr Speaker, I think
:49:44. > :49:47.the issue is that the original human rights convention was a
:49:47. > :49:57.laudable document, written at a time when Stalin was in power and
:49:57. > :50:00.people were being sent to the gulags without trial. It has moved
:50:00. > :50:04.further and further away from the goals of its creator, and I believe
:50:04. > :50:11.this is an issue we have to address in this country and I believe
:50:11. > :50:14.across Europe. Well, we are joined by Mike someone who resigned from
:50:14. > :50:20.the Commission earlier this year. Do you think this whole process has
:50:20. > :50:27.been a bit of a waste of time? actually, but before I come to say
:50:27. > :50:32.why, can I come back to your last item, because I was struck by, on
:50:32. > :50:37.the fact the Commission, the Commission decided to give a lump
:50:37. > :50:41.sum fee of �500 to graduate students, to do what potentially
:50:41. > :50:47.was several months of work, I objected to it, because I felt it
:50:47. > :50:53.was a way of getting round not only a living waiming but a minimum wage.
:50:53. > :51:01.Right. And so, I have a lot of sympathy with both speaker, and I
:51:01. > :51:04.feel that the lowest paid need to be protected, especially by the
:51:04. > :51:07.Ministry of Justice. You are listening to the programme and the
:51:07. > :51:11.piece before you came on. To get back to the issue at hand, do you
:51:11. > :51:15.think the whole process of having a commission to look at this has been
:51:15. > :51:20.a waste of time? Well, I think it need not have within a waste of
:51:20. > :51:26.time. -- been a waste of time. Had there be room for real discussion,
:51:26. > :51:29.because I think when people with different views get koth, and --
:51:29. > :51:34.get together and discuss in scenesable way one gets to the root
:51:34. > :51:38.of the problem. Was discussion suppressed? We didn't, because the
:51:38. > :51:42.real issue, which is the relationships between Britain and
:51:42. > :51:50.the Strasbourg court, was seen to be excluded from the terms of
:51:50. > :51:55.reference, and that is what one of the documents says, that they
:51:55. > :52:00.couldn't get to the real discussion, and so it has been, you know,
:52:00. > :52:06.largely a waste of time, which is what I said last March. Right. Now,
:52:06. > :52:09.do you think the fact bearing in mind those restrictions no
:52:09. > :52:14.unanimous agreement on whether a British Bill of Rights would be
:52:14. > :52:21.achieve dge or desirable has meant that we are back to square one?
:52:21. > :52:27.Well, I think we are not, acheeb cheevable. The real issue isn't the
:52:27. > :52:31.text of a Bill of Rights, I mean, in general terms, everybody agreed
:52:31. > :52:37.to the rights, in the European Convention on Human Rights, nobody
:52:37. > :52:41.wants to take those away, it is a question of who judges the rights,
:52:42. > :52:47.and the jurisprudence that people want to tackle. And so, just
:52:47. > :52:51.looking at the rights, it is really irrelevant. Nobody wants to torture,
:52:51. > :52:55.everybody is in favour of a right- to-life. Family life, fair trial,
:52:55. > :52:59.freedom of expression, that is not in question. The question is who
:52:59. > :53:03.desides what is freedom of expression, and I think there is a
:53:03. > :53:07.belief that now it should be British judges, accountable to our
:53:07. > :53:10.Parliament, and that is the core problem. And Frances O'Grady, do
:53:10. > :53:15.you agree with that, that nobody wants to take those sorts of human
:53:15. > :53:19.rights away, but it should be a case of judges who are, if you like,
:53:19. > :53:23.sovereign and answerable in some way to Parliament and Government
:53:23. > :53:29.here? I think the big issue here is from a trade union movement's point
:53:29. > :53:32.of view is that ue man rights only get recognised as important as when
:53:33. > :53:38.people are looking to dilute them or take them away, I mean there has
:53:38. > :53:44.been a lot of discussion about rights for murderers, or alleged,
:53:44. > :53:50.of those facing allegations of terrorism, but a big issue for us
:53:50. > :53:55.has been about blacklisting of trade union activists where their
:53:55. > :54:01.names were being put on data baste basiss and livelihoods, people
:54:01. > :54:04.locked out of jobs... Why couldn't that be dealt with? That is an
:54:04. > :54:08.interesting question, but this shouldn't be and what a lot of
:54:09. > :54:13.people are worried about, this is about a Government that doesn't
:54:13. > :54:21.like the human rights act, doesn't like those basic protections and
:54:21. > :54:29.wants to dilute them. You will recall that when the current
:54:29. > :54:34.Government was in opposition, it wanted to increase the rights of
:54:34. > :54:37.people. They were against against the long period of detention
:54:37. > :54:44.without trial. I don't think the record supports that fear. I think
:54:44. > :54:47.that is an unnecessary fear. Thank you very much. Now it a Tuesday.
:54:48. > :54:54.Which means the Cabinet met earlier today, but this morning there was a
:54:54. > :54:57.special guest. The Queen. Her Majesty became the first monarch
:54:57. > :55:00.since 1781 to attend a cabinet meeting in Downing Street. David
:55:00. > :55:05.Cameron introduced her to each of the members of the Cabinet in turn.
:55:05. > :55:09.That will have taken time! And their hours practising bower or
:55:09. > :55:14.courtesying were put to good use. The Prime Minister's spokesman said
:55:14. > :55:18.the Queen spent about 30 minutes at the meeting, lots of laughter and
:55:18. > :55:22.on her way in she shared a joke, as we heard with the Chancellor George
:55:22. > :55:29.Osborne, we would like to know what that was stkwhr. And William Hague.
:55:29. > :55:37.Well, I am joined by the royal historian Kate Williams. It looks
:55:37. > :55:43.very jovial. We imagine cab net might more adversarial. She was
:55:43. > :55:47.being given a present. This was the jubilee gift. I here it was 60
:55:47. > :55:51.place mats. At the beginning of the year Michael Gove and fellow
:55:51. > :55:56.ministers were suggesting a yacht. That got beaten down. They have
:55:56. > :56:01.gone for something more minimal. The House of Commons shop does some
:56:01. > :56:06.good place mats. How significant was this moment, of the Queen
:56:06. > :56:09.attending cabinet? In is a very significant moment. Obviously,
:56:09. > :56:13.people from outside occasionally attend, but that is to give
:56:13. > :56:21.presentation, it is not to sit in and listen, the last person to
:56:21. > :56:26.attend cabinet was George III and by then monarchs had become much
:56:26. > :56:35.less, so Victoria, she did meet some ministers in a more informal
:56:35. > :56:39.manner? Did she attend cabinet? No, cabinet was different in those day,
:56:39. > :56:44.it is very formal, David Lloyd George did it formal with minutes
:56:44. > :56:49.and meeting and stfs secure, it was more different in the days before
:56:49. > :56:54.formal democracy it is a significant moment the Queen has
:56:54. > :56:57.attended. Although she reads minute, she cease them all, she sees
:56:57. > :57:01.ambassador, report, she doesn't get to sit in and see what I would
:57:01. > :57:05.imagine, what we imagine is a lot of debate, a lot of argument and
:57:05. > :57:08.discussion over what is going on. I wonder how much argument and debate
:57:08. > :57:12.there was this morning or whether everybody was on their best
:57:12. > :57:16.behaviour. People were saying they have to mind their Ps and Qs. She
:57:16. > :57:22.was there for half an hour, there is business to be done. We are
:57:22. > :57:24.heading towards America falling off the fiscal cliff. We have issues
:57:24. > :57:27.for 2013 and simply because the Queen is there I don't think the
:57:27. > :57:32.Government would say let us chat about Christmas trees, important
:57:33. > :57:37.business has to be done. She has an audience with the Prime Minister.
:57:37. > :57:41.For half an hours she has had 12 Prime Minister, she started with
:57:41. > :57:44.Winston Churchill, she has a lot of experience, she meets heads of
:57:44. > :57:47.state. He is a neutral head of state. He is only supposed to
:57:47. > :57:51.advice, but she has had a lot of expense, she has travelled all over
:57:51. > :57:55.the world, the Commonwealth, and she meets a lot of her subjects,
:57:55. > :58:00.the Queen herself is someone who is concerned with the every day
:58:00. > :58:05.political life of her subjects. idea constitutionally is the Queen
:58:05. > :58:10.is above party politics. Exactly. Is there any danger of that sense
:58:10. > :58:13.of her attending cabinet? I think this is a one off. I won't happen
:58:13. > :58:16.again. It's a Diamond Jubilee celebration and we probably won't
:58:16. > :58:21.see it again for her successors, Charles and William, simply because
:58:21. > :58:26.it is a one off event, because really, this is not very customary,
:58:26. > :58:30.cabinet meetings are private. We can't go, MPs can't go. They don't
:58:30. > :58:33.even see the minutes. This is a one off, a final Diamond Jubilee
:58:33. > :58:36.celebration and I presume they had to dash through the rest of the
:58:36. > :58:40.business after she left. There is just time before we go to find out
:58:40. > :58:47.the answer to our quiz. I know you have been waiting for this Frances.
:58:47. > :58:51.The question was who visited Downing Street last night? Have a
:58:51. > :58:57.go. It is Father Christmas. I will give it to you. Just in case.