:00:42. > :00:46.Good Afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:46. > :00:49.MPs vote on limiting increases in benefits to 1% for three years. So
:00:49. > :00:52.who is it going to hit - the shirkers or the strivers?
:00:52. > :00:56.They promised an end to the big brother state and introduced a
:00:56. > :00:58.Freedom Bill. So what's all this talk of a snooper's charter and
:00:58. > :01:01.secret courts? We assess the government's record
:01:01. > :01:04.on civil liberties. The man who built the Olympics
:01:04. > :01:09.takes up a new job at the treasury. Can he kick-start infrastructure
:01:09. > :01:19.spending across the UK and deliver a boost to the economy?
:01:19. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:27.And we've our own Olympic star. Shami Chakrabarti, the founder of
:01:27. > :01:30.liberty. We salute her integrity. Half How do you reach those dizzy
:01:30. > :01:35.heights of adulation? Yes, we're Daily and we do Politics
:01:35. > :01:38.- in fact we do exactly what we say on the tin. And in that tin for the
:01:38. > :01:41.next hour is Shami Chakrabarti, the Director of Liberty. Welcome to the
:01:41. > :01:43.programme. Let's start with Northern Ireland,
:01:44. > :01:46.where hundreds of Loyalists have taken to the streets of east
:01:46. > :01:49.Belfast for the fifth consecutive night to stage violent protests
:01:49. > :01:54.against the city council's decision to restrict the number of days when
:01:54. > :02:01.the Union flag flies over City Hall. Let's get the latest from our
:02:01. > :02:04.Northern Ireland Political Editor, Mark Devenport. Her why have
:02:04. > :02:10.Community nations collapsed in such a dramatic way?
:02:10. > :02:14.It came as a bit of a surprise to the politicians at Stormont. They
:02:14. > :02:18.knew there would be significant community disquiet over this
:02:19. > :02:23.decision to restrict the flying of the Union flag to a certain number
:02:23. > :02:27.of designated days over Belfast City Hall, when for many a year it
:02:27. > :02:32.had flown there all year round. Even though they thought it might
:02:32. > :02:35.be the one might or one-week wonder, nobody predicted, prior to the
:02:35. > :02:39.controversial decision last month, the protests would have been
:02:39. > :02:43.sustained in the wake they have been, and as violent as they have
:02:43. > :02:48.been. Last night we saw the police coming under attack from
:02:48. > :02:51.sledgehammers, axes, and industrial laser was used to try and blind the
:02:52. > :02:57.police. I was surprised only three police officers were injured, given
:02:57. > :03:01.the level of violence and the fact that police had to fire plastic
:03:01. > :03:06.bullets and water cannon in response. We are seeing some of the
:03:06. > :03:10.pictures now and the emergency vehicles, obviously being brought
:03:10. > :03:15.in night after night. It is difficult to see how you can defuse
:03:15. > :03:20.the situation? It is difficult. The protesters want to have the Union
:03:20. > :03:25.flag put back on Belfast City Hall. But I was attending the regular
:03:25. > :03:28.monthly meeting of Belfast council last night, and there was no sense
:03:28. > :03:32.the councillors were going to do an about face. The nationalists feel
:03:32. > :03:38.they have struck a blow for equality by taking down this flag,
:03:38. > :03:42.which they say does not represent them. The Alliance Party, which is
:03:42. > :03:46.the cross-community party, stuck in the middle, still believes it voted
:03:46. > :03:50.for a principled compromise in flying the flag on only a certain
:03:50. > :03:56.number of designated days, and we have one of those coming up
:03:56. > :03:59.tomorrow, which is the birthday of the Duchess of Cambridge. The union
:03:59. > :04:03.is heard about this, but are scrabbling to try and reconnect
:04:03. > :04:08.with their community, those people who have been on the streets, who
:04:08. > :04:12.don't feel they have been represented by their politicians.
:04:12. > :04:16.It does demonstrate that symbols are still extremely important to
:04:16. > :04:21.people in the communities in Northern Ireland, at a time when we
:04:21. > :04:26.thought peace had broken out? Absolutely and progress in Northern
:04:26. > :04:30.Ireland has been one of the most wonderful things of my lifetime, my
:04:30. > :04:33.adult hood. No matter the importance of symbols to politics
:04:33. > :04:40.and communities, it is no justification for sending children
:04:40. > :04:44.out to throwing missiles. Reports of ten-year-olds going out? Yes, I
:04:44. > :04:49.have a ten-year-old, and I don't take him on peaceful demonstrations,
:04:49. > :04:54.let alone to put them at risk and cause violence. We have had people
:04:54. > :04:58.win the Nobel Peace Prize from both sides of the community in Northern
:04:58. > :05:03.Ireland. Let's have these senior political voices coming out and
:05:03. > :05:08.speaking to the community. It does show how fragile things must be,
:05:08. > :05:13.but these tensions still so much close to the surface? Apparently so.
:05:13. > :05:21.I don't know whether it is affected in part by the economic situation
:05:21. > :05:26.or other factors. As with the riots in England a couple of summers ago.
:05:26. > :05:31.You just staff to cope saner counsel prevailed. What about the
:05:31. > :05:34.potential solution of flying the flag again? Is this a challenge to
:05:34. > :05:40.democracy? City Hall made a decision and it has provoked this
:05:40. > :05:44.violence. You cannot reverse a Democratic decision because people
:05:44. > :05:49.are rioting. I do hope it will be senior voices in the Unionist
:05:49. > :05:54.community, peaceful people, from that side of the argument who come
:05:54. > :05:57.out and urge peace and show some leadership. We have heard people in
:05:57. > :06:01.the Unionist community who say they feel like strangers in their own
:06:01. > :06:05.land, they obviously feel very strongly that they are not being
:06:05. > :06:15.able to show their feelings in the way they would like? It is a
:06:15. > :06:17.
:06:17. > :06:24.Democratic debate that they can lead whilst urging peace.
:06:25. > :06:30.We will be coming to the benefits caps story soon.
:06:30. > :06:35.When the coalition came to power, it promised to strike the civil
:06:35. > :06:45.liberties. Some of the plans have raised questions about the
:06:45. > :06:51.coalition record on civil liberties. We seem to have a problem with the
:06:51. > :06:54.film, but we will try and play it in a moment. We will be joined by
:06:54. > :06:57.the Home Office minister who is responsible.
:06:57. > :07:02.Shami Chakrabarti, what do you think of the record from his
:07:02. > :07:09.coalition Government in terms of civil liberties? It is mixed. They
:07:09. > :07:11.started well. The coalition was almost glued together by their
:07:11. > :07:16.opposition to various authoritarian measures went they were both
:07:16. > :07:21.opposition parties. ID cards, a symbolic act of the coalition
:07:21. > :07:25.Government, abolishing those and some of the other measures you
:07:25. > :07:30.spoke of. The fingerprinting and so on. However, there has been a shift
:07:30. > :07:34.and I have real concerns about secret courts. It is a
:07:34. > :07:37.contradiction in terms, to kick out the victims of Government abuse and
:07:37. > :07:42.their lawyers and let the Government have a private chat with
:07:42. > :07:49.the judge. Do we need more secrecy in the lands of Hillsborough and
:07:49. > :07:53.the Jimmy Savile scandal? It is about scooping up the private, on-
:07:53. > :07:57.line information of everybody in the country. Not criminal suspects,
:07:57. > :08:01.we all support those being put under surveillance, but everybody.
:08:01. > :08:05.It is the equivalent of saying because crime happens in people's
:08:05. > :08:09.homes, we should have the legal power to plans a camera and
:08:09. > :08:17.microphone in everybody's bedroom and living room just in case they
:08:17. > :08:24.are up to no good. James, and so that response, that you will be
:08:24. > :08:30.basically so veiling everybody's house and their conversations?
:08:30. > :08:32.it was as Shami's characterised it, I would be joining her in her views.
:08:32. > :08:37.But it is updating legislation regarding telephones, and
:08:37. > :08:41.reflecting the fact we communicate on the internet and different ways.
:08:42. > :08:46.Updating legislation to enable the police to Prosser Kate -- prosecute
:08:46. > :08:52.offenders, put safeguards in to ensure the police can do the job
:08:52. > :08:57.they do now. This will be affecting innocent citizens. We do accept
:08:57. > :09:01.that? It is not a targeted warrant. At the moment, the police can
:09:01. > :09:07.access information that is retained by the phone companies, internet
:09:07. > :09:12.companies, to be able to use that in court. What we are seeking to do
:09:12. > :09:16.is update the legislation. Of course, we hear a number of the
:09:16. > :09:20.concerns raised by Shami and others. We had a joint committee of both
:09:20. > :09:25.Houses of Parliament which is looking into this. Which shares my
:09:25. > :09:30.concerns. We accept on principle the recommendations made by that.
:09:30. > :09:34.We want to bring the public with us on that but recognise there are
:09:34. > :09:39.clear public protection issues. Let's remind ourselves of some of
:09:39. > :09:45.the issues we are talking about. ID cars scrapped, innocent people
:09:45. > :09:49.taken off the DNA database, more CCTV regulations. All part of the
:09:49. > :09:53.Government's roll-back of state intrusion. But what about this? A
:09:53. > :09:58.snoopers charter to some, the draft communications data built has
:09:58. > :10:01.caused tension within the coalition. The Lib Dems want to rewrite.
:10:01. > :10:05.whole thing is written to give carte blanche to the Home Secretary
:10:05. > :10:10.to collect information on who you message, who you talk to our mind,
:10:10. > :10:14.do anything with. A huge amount of information. That could
:10:14. > :10:18.accidentally get out into the public. We know there has been data
:10:18. > :10:23.loss before. The list of every website you go to, if you go to a
:10:23. > :10:28.depression website, and abortion website, that could reveal a lot of
:10:28. > :10:31.information about use. The idea is to give police and community
:10:31. > :10:35.services the power to monitor communications. Internet service
:10:35. > :10:40.providers will have to give the record for a year, of details like
:10:40. > :10:44.which websites you have been a visiting, how long you have spent
:10:44. > :10:49.on an internet voice call and who you have been tweeting. We don't
:10:49. > :10:53.want to be able to arrest criminals to use old fashion criminals, but
:10:53. > :10:58.let them off if they use a more modern form of communication. We
:10:58. > :11:02.have to keep up with technology. Maintaining civil liberties is one
:11:02. > :11:07.of the reasons the Government replaced control orders on terror
:11:07. > :11:10.suspects who cannot be tried, with these. They focus more on
:11:10. > :11:15.surveillance. But Labour has criticised the Government's
:11:15. > :11:20.decision to scrap control orders after this terror suspect, who had
:11:20. > :11:23.been previously subject to a control order, disappeared. Well
:11:23. > :11:28.control orders were in force, several individuals or went missing,
:11:28. > :11:34.six of them have not been heard from again. This individual has
:11:34. > :11:37.gone missing, the police are doing everything they can to find him.
:11:37. > :11:41.These Terrorism prevention measures are very important. They are
:11:41. > :11:46.designed to help secure the British public from threat. A another
:11:46. > :11:51.controversial idea, which is winding its way through the Commons,
:11:51. > :11:55.could lead to civil hearings being heard behind closed doors. Secret
:11:55. > :11:59.courts to it its critics, the justice and security bill would
:11:59. > :12:05.allow Secrets Of spies and other sensitive information would be
:12:05. > :12:12.heard in front of a judge in cases of national security. Ministers
:12:12. > :12:17.have already backtracked, after it was defeated in the House of Lords.
:12:17. > :12:21.Judges will decide. Inquest coroner's hearings won't be heard
:12:21. > :12:24.in his wake, restricting it to things that are our greatest
:12:24. > :12:27.national security. I'm still not wild about where we are commonly
:12:27. > :12:33.have to find a balance so information isn't just excluded
:12:33. > :12:35.under the current system. They are measures that divide, but will the
:12:35. > :12:42.reverse of the coalition criticised as an erosion of civil liberties
:12:43. > :12:48.when the lights go out on this Government?
:12:48. > :12:52.The Home Office minister is with us. Which major crimes for terrorist
:12:52. > :13:00.plots would have been foiled have the Government had access to
:13:00. > :13:03.people's Facebook accounts? A 95% of organised crime, where they are
:13:03. > :13:07.brought before the courts relied on his communications data, which is
:13:07. > :13:13.the context, not the content of people's communications between
:13:13. > :13:18.each other. What we're talking about, for example, if you have a
:13:18. > :13:23.phone Record, the information on who has communicated with whom, and
:13:23. > :13:26.when and work. We understand the sensitivity is attached with this,
:13:26. > :13:32.which is why the draft legislation was put before the joint committee
:13:32. > :13:37.for scrutiny. It is to make sure those inputs are provided. There
:13:37. > :13:43.are clear public protection issues on child protection, where there
:13:43. > :13:46.was a clear case which brought it to me, on a young person who had
:13:46. > :13:51.contacted a child protection line. They had used a computer rather
:13:51. > :13:56.than phoning up. And being able to do with that child and save their
:13:56. > :14:00.life, literally. What you want to see taken out? For the biggest
:14:00. > :14:07.problem with the thinking in the Home Office, it has been going on
:14:07. > :14:11.for years. The snoopers charter was born under the last Government. It
:14:11. > :14:14.is blanket surveillance of the whole population, rather than
:14:14. > :14:20.attempting to target particular suspects for this kind of
:14:20. > :14:25.surveillance. Why is it blanket surveillance? Explain to me, how is
:14:25. > :14:29.it you will target people who you know to be suspects without going
:14:30. > :14:34.on massive fishing expeditions? Exactly. What we are seeking to do
:14:34. > :14:39.is bring this up to date. But the police have information on a crime,
:14:39. > :14:44.they might have an identified suspect and the use that
:14:44. > :14:51.information on people who they have been communicating with, it is
:14:51. > :14:58.potential evidence. We can see how this is defined in a proportion of
:14:58. > :15:03.weight on save karting... Updating is an innocuous phrase. We are
:15:03. > :15:08.forcing providers to collect more data... Which they already do at
:15:08. > :15:13.the moment. If that was the case, you wouldn't need it your bill. The
:15:13. > :15:16.minister, is a nice man and he has been speeding up the civil
:15:16. > :15:21.liberties for years, and now he is in the Home Office. There is
:15:21. > :15:26.something in the water. The second problem is, he said it is
:15:27. > :15:32.communications data, not the content. When you go online, which
:15:32. > :15:36.are website you visit is content. You had the mental health problems
:15:36. > :15:43.and you weren't looking for advice, and if you went on an abortion
:15:43. > :15:47.website. That picture of your activity... Are you prepared to
:15:47. > :15:51.risk potential terror suspects or potential paedophiles getting away
:15:51. > :16:01.because you want to protect people's liberties to such an
:16:01. > :16:04.
:16:04. > :16:10.Don't build up the private data of the population. Use your ingenuity
:16:10. > :16:14.and legislation to target suspects, do not turn us all into suspect.
:16:14. > :16:20.you are a clever criminal, you will bypass the structures you are
:16:20. > :16:25.talking about. That is what the industry says! Bee industry
:16:25. > :16:33.recognises, and all sides, and Shami recognises the legislation
:16:33. > :16:36.does need updating to reflect the changing way we use technology. But
:16:36. > :16:40.if we do not take steps at the moment because of the different way
:16:40. > :16:45.we are communicating, the ability of the police to solve crimes as
:16:45. > :16:53.they do, that will be eroded. We cannot allow that to happen and
:16:53. > :16:58.that is the real talent. Nick Clegg said this is wrong on cost and
:16:58. > :17:04.balances, can you satisfy his concerns? He has underlined the
:17:04. > :17:09.need for the legislation. What are you going to change? One up on be -
:17:09. > :17:13.- one of the issues was this issue of future proofing in terms of the
:17:13. > :17:18.scope of the legislation and taking account of how we use technology,
:17:18. > :17:22.we need to make sure we have clarity on the type of a
:17:22. > :17:26.information we will retain her to give assurances we will not grab
:17:26. > :17:32.everything, as Shami is suggesting we would do, to give that clarity
:17:32. > :17:37.on the safeguards. I believe you are going to answer an urgent
:17:37. > :17:42.question about a man on the film who has absconded and he had
:17:42. > :17:50.earlier been on a control order, where is he? By at is the question
:17:50. > :17:58.the police and security services are working hard to work out --
:17:58. > :18:02.that is. Way was he able to abscond? -- why was he able? The
:18:02. > :18:09.best place you want a suspect is behind bars and prosecuted but with
:18:09. > :18:19.some individuals can make you cannot do that, to prosecute or to
:18:19. > :18:24.deport them. This is the argument... This is the argument you and your
:18:24. > :18:30.colleagues in both of the coalition parties fought tooth and nail, when
:18:30. > :18:34.control orders were introduced under the last government. These
:18:34. > :18:39.are control orders under a different name, with loads of
:18:39. > :18:43.people escaped from a control order. The authority should be arresting
:18:43. > :18:49.people and if necessary putting them under bail, then they need to
:18:49. > :18:54.be charged or released. That is why we have committed additional
:18:54. > :19:00.resources which are robust and are dealing with offenders who cannot
:19:00. > :19:07.be prosecutors -- prosecuted. is nothing in the legislation that
:19:07. > :19:13.says people should be dealt with in the criminal justice system. I have
:19:13. > :19:16.to finish it, but as we would like to hear more on that subject. --
:19:16. > :19:19.much as. Now, it's the first big
:19:19. > :19:22.parliamentary vote of 2013 this afternoon. MPs will vote on
:19:22. > :19:25.government plans to put a 1% cap on annual rises in working-age
:19:25. > :19:28.benefits and some tax credits. Historically, benefits have risen
:19:28. > :19:31.in line with the rate of inflation, increasing by more than 5% in 2012-
:19:31. > :19:35.2013. The government argues the 1% cap is necessary to limit the costs
:19:35. > :19:38.of benefits to tax payers. The Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan
:19:38. > :19:41.Smith says, it's very simple, today is about fairness. Why should the
:19:41. > :19:44.taxpayer pay more to sustain welfare payments, while at the same
:19:45. > :19:47.time earning less? And a new Conservative poster today reads,
:19:47. > :19:52."Today, Labour are voting to increase benefits by more than
:19:52. > :19:55.workers' wages." Labour, in contrast, is referring to today's
:19:55. > :20:01.legislation as the "Strivers' Tax Bill," as they claim that 60% of
:20:02. > :20:04.those hit will be in work. They cite figures from the Institute for
:20:04. > :20:14.Fiscal Studies, which show 7.1 million out of 14 million working
:20:14. > :20:17.
:20:17. > :20:20.households will lose �165 a year in real terms by 2015-2016. And the
:20:20. > :20:24.Citizens Advice Bureau so -- say a couple with two children earning
:20:24. > :20:30.�13,000 a year will lose �13 a week by 2015. The Deputy Chief Executive
:20:30. > :20:34.of the Citizens Advice Bureau, Mike Dixon, joins us now.
:20:34. > :20:39.Give us a flavour of the impact of this will have on the people you
:20:39. > :20:45.speak to. It will have a huge impact, �700 is a large amount of
:20:45. > :20:49.money but if you are a family on �13,000, that is eating your house,
:20:49. > :20:54.buying food for your children and going on holiday, so what is a big
:20:54. > :20:57.change. But there is a narrative from the government supported by
:20:57. > :21:06.many that says the Welfare Bill is too high and something needs to be
:21:06. > :21:10.done. For the Welfare Bill is high but a blanket cut is not a
:21:10. > :21:14.sophisticated approach. People are not earning enough on lower-paid
:21:14. > :21:17.jobs -- in lower-paid jobs and we are not getting enough back into
:21:17. > :21:22.work so this distinction between benefit recipients and people in
:21:22. > :21:27.work is very false. As the Institute for Fiscal Studies said
:21:27. > :21:35.today, more people will be affected in work and out of work by this
:21:35. > :21:40.today. Put on an issue of fairness, if you are earning around �40,000
:21:40. > :21:45.or �45,000 and have taken working - - working tax credits, has that
:21:45. > :21:51.created an element of dependency? This is not about dependency, this
:21:51. > :21:55.is, can people afford to leave -- lead a decent live at the moment?
:21:55. > :22:02.People on lower incomes, at the things they are spending money on
:22:02. > :22:06.have gone up, energy bills and travel, at they spend money on that
:22:06. > :22:09.disproportionately and they are going up fast. Cutting benefits at
:22:09. > :22:14.the same time will make it much harder for those people to love and
:22:14. > :22:22.much harder for them to get back into the labour market and get the
:22:22. > :22:25.market growing again -- to live up. -- live.
:22:25. > :22:29.We're joined now by the Work and Pensions Minister Steve Webb and
:22:29. > :22:34.the Shadow Work and Pensions Minister Stephen Timms. There has
:22:34. > :22:40.been a lot of talk about shirkers and strivers, how many people are
:22:40. > :22:45.on benefits in your constituency? Shirkers and strivers is not
:22:45. > :22:53.languid I have used for Iain Duncan Smith have used. The Prime Minister
:22:53. > :23:00.has used that language, we have heard him talk about people being
:23:00. > :23:04.workshy also. And I have not heard that, we are trying to make a small
:23:04. > :23:10.contribution to a massive hole. Labour were borrowing over �3
:23:10. > :23:14.billion every week. This bill does not save �3 billion is easier and
:23:14. > :23:18.that gives a sense of the massive scale of the whole we are trying to
:23:18. > :23:23.fill and social security spending is a small part of the court that
:23:23. > :23:28.has to be made. A is it wrong for political leaders to use and
:23:28. > :23:33.characterise the debate in the way I described in the opening remarks?
:23:33. > :23:39.Dividing people is not the right way to go. For me, the bill is
:23:39. > :23:42.about the necessary savings and protecting the most reliable, so
:23:42. > :23:49.disabilities are protected -- disability benefits and pensions
:23:49. > :23:54.are protectors. Without the bill, and Labour are going to vote down
:23:54. > :23:59.the whole bill, that is another �3.5 billion that has to come from
:23:59. > :24:03.somewhere else on we do not know where that is going to be. You are
:24:03. > :24:09.talking about savings so you see it if it litre Iain Duncan Smith who
:24:09. > :24:12.is talking about fairness. I see at the same, what we are saying is,
:24:12. > :24:19.where can we find savings in the budget at a time when people in
:24:19. > :24:23.work have often had a 1% pay rise or a pay freeze, how do we look at
:24:23. > :24:29.benefit of greed and at the same time? It is if fairness between the
:24:29. > :24:33.groups on benefit and had worked. So there is a difference between
:24:33. > :24:38.shirkers and strivers? Iain Duncan Smith is saying he is standing up
:24:38. > :24:42.for hard-working families. Taking people out of income tax is about
:24:42. > :24:45.people in work so they can keep more of what they are winning.
:24:45. > :24:50.need people with you would be hitting a hard-working families
:24:50. > :24:54.because 60% of those on benefits are in work! That is why you have
:24:54. > :24:59.to look at the whole package, not just there tax-free allowance, the
:24:59. > :25:04.10 pence off petrol, the whole package is helping people in low-
:25:04. > :25:09.paid work when �3.5 billion has to be found and Labour will not tell
:25:09. > :25:13.us where it has to come from. Welfare to hide? He it is and it is
:25:13. > :25:20.going up and the whole he is trying to fill is about the increase in
:25:20. > :25:23.unemployment forecast for next year. Unemployment has been falling.
:25:23. > :25:30.has gone down a bit but the official forecast is for it to go
:25:30. > :25:34.up next year. So you agree the Welfare Bill is too high and you
:25:34. > :25:39.say that is because of unemployment levels so you feel everybody that
:25:39. > :25:43.gets benefit get it and deserves it? The great majority of people
:25:43. > :25:49.out of work are certainly very anxious to get work and one of the
:25:49. > :25:52.things that worries me about this proposal is getting back to the
:25:52. > :25:57.toxic combination of policies he has talked about in the 1980s when
:25:57. > :26:02.we had the court in the top rate of income tax that is being proposed
:26:02. > :26:06.now -- a court. That led to the explosion of child poverty in the
:26:06. > :26:11.1980s and will do the same today. The crucial point is that the
:26:11. > :26:16.majority of people affected by this are in work so if you take a second
:26:16. > :26:23.lieutenant in the army... Supporting his wife and three
:26:23. > :26:27.children, they will lose out by a �552 a year. Exactly the people
:26:27. > :26:33.struggling for most at the moment. Why are you were posing a whole
:26:33. > :26:37.bill? It is deeply -- why are you opposing the whole bill. It is
:26:37. > :26:42.deeply opposing. You have said it is too high and you need to deal
:26:42. > :26:46.with the economic situation, polls show that the public is generally
:26:46. > :26:52.in favour of dealing with the burgeoning Welfare Bill, what would
:26:52. > :26:55.Labour do to bring it down? A get people back to work. It is very
:26:55. > :27:00.difficult for up a government to say, we would improve growth
:27:00. > :27:05.figures, what would you do with the Welfare Bill? We would not just
:27:05. > :27:10.improve growth figures, we would also introduce a jobs guarantee
:27:10. > :27:14.which we set out the details of that last week, paid for by a
:27:14. > :27:19.restriction on pensioners' tax relief for people earning over
:27:19. > :27:23.�150,000 a year, so we could make sure people got back into work and
:27:23. > :27:28.we got momentum back into the economy and the future hold this
:27:28. > :27:34.bill is designed to fill would not open up. Are you not falling into
:27:34. > :27:40.the trap that has been laid? You are saying you do not support a cap
:27:40. > :27:45.but to do so put a freeze on workers' wages? We do support the
:27:45. > :27:50.overall 1% cap on public sector pay and it needs to be implemented in a
:27:50. > :27:56.fair way, and less than 1% rise for public-sector workers on higher
:27:56. > :28:01.wages to protect those on low wages. This hits us with a double whammy
:28:01. > :28:07.of people who have their incomes get down and their tax credits cut
:28:07. > :28:14.for also and that is not fair. If the goes ahead, which you reverse
:28:14. > :28:17.it? -- if it goes ahead. Wait until you see our manifesto. This is the
:28:17. > :28:23.wrong approach and not fair for people struggling to make ends meet
:28:23. > :28:28.at the moment. When you hear this characterisations and listen to the
:28:28. > :28:32.Citizens Advice Bureau and job a Liberal Democrat colleagues who say
:28:33. > :28:40.they are anxious about the policy and fear many that would be hit are
:28:40. > :28:45.already on the breadline! They are anxious about a language of
:28:45. > :28:49.shirkers and strivers which we do not support. You have to look at a
:28:49. > :28:55.package of measures, crucially the Universal Credit specifically for
:28:55. > :28:58.the low-paid and hard-working families we need to support.
:28:58. > :29:03.concern is this nasty political language and demonising of people
:29:03. > :29:09.on benefits, and it went on under the last government, it is warping
:29:09. > :29:14.public opinion here because public perception of the benefits system
:29:14. > :29:19.is warped. The average perception is that 41% of the welfare budget
:29:19. > :29:24.is going on the unemployed but just 3% is spent on the unemployment, so
:29:24. > :29:29.the rest is people who are working but on low wages would low incomes.
:29:29. > :29:33.The perception was that 27% of the welfare budget is going on
:29:33. > :29:38.fraudulent claims, and the reality, according to the government's
:29:38. > :29:44.figures, is that less than 1% of the welfare budget is going towards
:29:44. > :29:48.fraud. This is the shirkers, strivers language, this is more
:29:48. > :29:53.open and the reality and public opinion. What do you say about
:29:53. > :29:56.that? You could say your Conservative colleagues have done
:29:56. > :29:59.that and most liberal Democrats have said they do not recognise him
:29:59. > :30:04.-- they do not recognise and they do not like that language. There is
:30:04. > :30:07.a false perception of what is going on and welfare is going up, a lot
:30:07. > :30:13.of that is pensions and benefits for disabled people we are
:30:13. > :30:17.protecting and that is what people want the money spent on. It is not
:30:17. > :30:22.just a single bill. We have not heard this will be reversed, they
:30:22. > :30:25.would just voted against it, but where will this come from and the
:30:25. > :30:35.context of �80 billion of deficit over the next few years? The answer
:30:35. > :30:37.
:30:37. > :30:47.is, we vote against every cut but I am going to have to finish its
:30:47. > :30:53.
:30:53. > :31:00.first. The Olympics was sporting glory.
:31:00. > :31:04.The Government has now put the creator in the Government. The
:31:04. > :31:12.Government has high hopes that a new wave of roads, rail and other
:31:12. > :31:18.public works will get the economy moving.
:31:18. > :31:28.We have a national infrastructure plan which has a pipeline with
:31:28. > :31:35.about just over �300 billion of projects that comprises I think of
:31:35. > :31:38.about 550 separate projects. As I pointed out already, we have
:31:39. > :31:44.identified the 40 top projects we think are important for modernising
:31:44. > :31:50.the economy and focusing resources on. So I will start with those
:31:50. > :31:55.projects. I was interested in the little ones that was started by the
:31:55. > :32:01.previous Government, as I am in starting new ones. Those 40, are
:32:01. > :32:07.they 40 that have not begun yet? terms of shovels in the ground, no.
:32:07. > :32:13.How many of those 40 will begin before 20th May 15? I do not know
:32:13. > :32:16.the answer to that yet. What is the Government's targets? I don't know.
:32:16. > :32:21.These are the questions I need to do my own work on to get a good
:32:21. > :32:25.sense of what we need to do, where we are now, and what is
:32:25. > :32:31.realistically possible. I will be speaking to the business
:32:31. > :32:35.minister, Matthew Hancock, but let's be to the Director General of
:32:35. > :32:38.the British commerce of chambers. He was struggling to answer the
:32:38. > :32:44.question on how quickly these infrastructure projects are getting
:32:44. > :32:48.built. Will he have much luck on blocking the pipeline? It is not
:32:48. > :32:52.looking good so far. The Government has indicated a lot of things in
:32:52. > :32:59.the right direction. The biggest challenge for the Government is
:32:59. > :33:04.delivering. Infrastructure is hugely important, along with
:33:04. > :33:09.business finance, access to finance. In the structure is the biggest
:33:09. > :33:13.answer to the growth question in the UK economy. It will also
:33:13. > :33:18.stimulate growth. It needs to be funded largely by the private
:33:18. > :33:26.sector. The Government needs to reduce the political risk for the
:33:26. > :33:34.private sector. There needs to be a freeing up of planning. How do you
:33:34. > :33:40.rate the UK's infrastructure? Generally poor. Aviation causes the
:33:40. > :33:47.bellwether, and that can is being kicked down the road. There is lots
:33:47. > :33:53.of infrastructure that needs to develop in certain areas. The sea
:33:54. > :34:00.ports, airports, rail and road, Lee Mead and energy policy in the UK,
:34:00. > :34:06.and energy security policy. It needs to be on a different basis.
:34:06. > :34:13.We also include skills in our infrastructure. This the Government
:34:14. > :34:20.doing enough? They're not doing enough urgency, scale and delivery.
:34:20. > :34:24.Le Sport that to Matthew Hancock. Poor infrastructure and you are not
:34:24. > :34:29.delivering the scale or the urgency of infrastructure? I agreed with a
:34:29. > :34:34.lot. Of course the UK infrastructure is poor, we know
:34:34. > :34:38.that. There has been an historic underspend. Fortunately we will be
:34:38. > :34:45.spending more on our transport infrastructure over this Parliament,
:34:45. > :34:51.van over the average 13 years that preceded it. And there is two
:34:51. > :34:55.problems. The first is, we need to make it faster to get from an
:34:55. > :34:59.infrastructure project proposal, to digging in the ground and then it
:34:59. > :35:04.openings. That is opening. And then the second thing is getting the
:35:04. > :35:08.money spent. Let me give you a couple of examples. In terms of
:35:08. > :35:16.road projects, there were announcements two years ago about
:35:16. > :35:23.the importance of some projects. Where are they? The M4, the M5 and
:35:23. > :35:28.the M6, those projects have started. Preliminary works are happening.
:35:28. > :35:31.The service roads you need. And there is others where the money is
:35:31. > :35:36.being spent in order to get the planning approvals, get the
:35:36. > :35:39.ownership straight. You need to own every bit of land. The said to
:35:39. > :35:44.agree, you accept you are not delivering? You have talked about a
:35:44. > :35:49.lot about in the structure, but apart from those examples you have
:35:49. > :35:53.given on roads, you have not delivered. The urgency isn't there.
:35:53. > :36:02.Do you accept that now? No, not at all. That is what business is
:36:03. > :36:07.saying, the urgency is not there. will explain about aviation. I
:36:07. > :36:11.don't except there isn't an urgency, because there is an urgency. We got
:36:11. > :36:16.into a position as a country, that it took too long to get projects
:36:16. > :36:20.from ideas and even when the financing was behind them, to
:36:20. > :36:27.actually getting them completed. We have got to improve the process,
:36:27. > :36:31.and then get the diggers in the grounds. We are having the biggest
:36:31. > :36:36.investment in rail since Victorian times. There will be more he spends
:36:36. > :36:40.on the railways over this Parliament than the last. There is
:36:40. > :36:45.a �37 billion announcement by Network Rail, more details came out
:36:45. > :36:49.this morning. We are electrifying from Southampton to Yorkshire and
:36:49. > :36:55.electrifying to South Wales. 800 miles of electrification over this
:36:55. > :36:59.Parliament, compared to 11 miles under Labour. So the urgency, I do
:36:59. > :37:05.not take it. We saw a question about how these projects are not
:37:05. > :37:09.happening. They are happening. was asked how many of the
:37:09. > :37:15.Government's 40 priority infrastructure projects would be
:37:15. > :37:20.under way by 2015, he did not know. That is because he is only a few
:37:21. > :37:27.days into his job. How many of the 40? The depends how many of the 40
:37:27. > :37:34.you count. How many of them will be under way by 2015? Almost all of
:37:34. > :37:44.them. You heard it there. Were at work under way on the M6, the M5
:37:44. > :37:45.
:37:45. > :37:50.and lot of other projects. We won't have time to talk about funding.
:37:50. > :37:54.are making huge progress. Funding has got to come from the private
:37:54. > :38:01.sector, you said. One of the ways it was suggested was to invest from
:38:01. > :38:06.pension funds. George Osborne said it would hopefully raise �20
:38:06. > :38:13.billion. Amateur money we get to spend on infrastructure from
:38:13. > :38:18.pension funds? Best how much money. There is 10 million man's work it
:38:18. > :38:23.has been designated. We will extend the Northern line to Battersea.
:38:23. > :38:27.us tell us the amount of money. billion where this project is
:38:27. > :38:32.outlined, and the Northern line extension to Battersea, which is a
:38:32. > :38:41.�1 billion project is funded, including these guarantees. It is
:38:41. > :38:48.under way, it will open up an area of London. But the National Pension
:38:48. > :38:53.funds said it had only managed to secure �700 million. �700 million
:38:53. > :38:57.was October. I had just show June the figure whether projects are
:38:57. > :39:04.being worked on his 10 billion. That answers your urgency questions.
:39:04. > :39:11.We have gone from 700 million to 10 billion. We have had a long-term
:39:11. > :39:15.structure issue. But this sort of debate that takes place on these
:39:15. > :39:21.programmes is part of the programme. The political class have a point
:39:21. > :39:25.scoring issue, when actually we have a major, a national crisis,
:39:25. > :39:34.effectively. The Prime Minister said we were fighting an economic
:39:34. > :39:37.war. We need a huge scale of investments, we need to secure the
:39:37. > :39:44.investments for the private sector. We need to get growth going in the
:39:45. > :39:51.UK, to levels which make us gross competitive in the world economy,
:39:51. > :39:53.even if the economy was going bad, we wouldn't be there. Now, Matthew
:39:54. > :39:56.Hancock, you're staying with us because MPs have been debating ways
:39:57. > :40:00.of increasing the number of women on the boards of listed companies.
:40:00. > :40:03.Currently, less than 20% of FTSE 100 board directors are female. A
:40:03. > :40:06.level which all sides agree is unacceptably low. The government
:40:06. > :40:08.asked Lord Davies of Abersoch to write a report on the issue, which
:40:08. > :40:12.was published in 2011, and have been pursuing a voluntary,
:40:12. > :40:18.business-led approach to improving gender balance. Now the European
:40:18. > :40:21.Commission is getting involved. They want to set a target for all
:40:21. > :40:31.major companies to have at least 40 % women non-executive directors by
:40:31. > :40:31.
:40:31. > :40:36.2020. The proposal was debated in the Commons yesterday.
:40:36. > :40:39.On the substance on the challenge of women on board, it is clear the
:40:39. > :40:43.Government has taken a lead and things are moving in the right
:40:43. > :40:48.directions. The current strategy is leading us towards the target the
:40:48. > :40:53.EU has proposed. On this issue about making progress, one of the
:40:53. > :40:58.ways of making progress is a voluntary approach. Lord Davies has
:40:58. > :41:03.made it clear in other speeches, he feels there has to be progress, and
:41:03. > :41:07.if progress is not made, we should look at a non voluntary approach.
:41:07. > :41:12.His he arguing the Government would be willing to look at that as
:41:12. > :41:16.something, we the UK we do, rather than some think the EU would do?
:41:16. > :41:21.Before coming a minister I wrote a book saying this should happen and
:41:21. > :41:25.we should hold open the proposition of legislation. The Government's
:41:25. > :41:32.position is clear, which is that we should approach this on a voluntary
:41:32. > :41:38.basis. Today we baked -- debate the need of greater gender balance of
:41:38. > :41:45.those in leadership in business. In doing so, the house and the
:41:46. > :41:51.governor has 22% of the current members and just 18% of the Cabinet
:41:51. > :41:56.are women. This is a disgraceful state of affairs in 2012. We are
:41:56. > :42:06.proud on these benches, that 33% of the Parliamentary Labour Party, and
:42:06. > :42:09.40% of the Shadow Cabinet are women. should debate, but in this house we
:42:09. > :42:11.are in no position to lecture. Parliament rejected the EU's
:42:11. > :42:21.proposal, deciding this issue should be tackled at a national
:42:21. > :42:23.
:42:23. > :42:26.level. Matt Hancock has stayed with us to discuss the issue further.
:42:26. > :42:32.Shami Chakrabarti, he did not support the legislation, but you do
:42:32. > :42:37.now? I was in the liberal position growing up, an ambitious young
:42:37. > :42:43.woman, I did not want to be a token. But I have realised, not just in
:42:43. > :42:48.this country, but all over the world, there is such injustice and
:42:48. > :42:51.discrimination towards women, possibly more than any other
:42:51. > :42:56.discrimination in the world. The process is slow and the barriers
:42:56. > :43:01.are great. You could have legislation that it was time
:43:01. > :43:04.limited just to kick-start the process. You set up a company
:43:04. > :43:10.because you want certain benefits that come from companies
:43:10. > :43:16.legislation. We did this at Liberty, despite it being a human rights
:43:16. > :43:19.organisation, very few women on the council and the board. There was a
:43:19. > :43:24.time limited constitutional amendment that allowed the co-
:43:24. > :43:28.option of women and other minorities. It landed -- lasted two
:43:29. > :43:34.years, and at the end of that period they stayed. Why couldn't
:43:34. > :43:38.that happen? You agree, you said that you would like to see more
:43:38. > :43:43.women as non-executive directors on company boards. It won't work
:43:43. > :43:48.without legislation? It is moving in the right directions. I agree
:43:48. > :43:53.with an awful lot of what Shami says. The cultural point, people
:43:53. > :43:58.tend to promote people who are similar to them. If you are getting
:43:58. > :44:05.somebody for your board, let get somebody who fits the organisation
:44:05. > :44:12.we are in. Cultural change is crucial and legislation can have a
:44:12. > :44:18.role in that. Legislation always has some unintended consequence.
:44:18. > :44:23.The arguments I wrote in my book, and which I put in the Commons, is
:44:23. > :44:27.we should push in this direction, but we should hold open that option.
:44:27. > :44:31.So you would be prepared to use legislation if you do not think
:44:31. > :44:36.enough progress has been made in five years? I won't put a time
:44:36. > :44:41.limit on it, but I wrote a book making that argument. And making do
:44:41. > :44:46.cultural argument that more diverse sports, not only diverse boards in
:44:46. > :44:51.terms of sex, but background and people's life experiences. The
:44:51. > :44:57.evidence is clear, more diverse boards are better. There are
:44:57. > :45:02.downsize to legislating. What is the downside? The way you draft it
:45:02. > :45:08.could be very complicated. They could end up being unintended
:45:08. > :45:11.downside consequences. In Norway, where they have this legislation,
:45:11. > :45:16.the number of non-executive directors has risen. But there has
:45:16. > :45:22.been no change in the number of executive women... It is about
:45:22. > :45:26.making a start. Coming back to Shami. It is moving. It is true to
:45:26. > :45:31.say I think Lord Davies, who carried out the review so the
:45:31. > :45:36.current rate of exchange, it would take 70 years to achieve gender
:45:36. > :45:42.balance boardrooms in the UK. I am getting more impatient, and I
:45:42. > :45:49.want change to hurry up. I want to update the figures. That was from
:45:49. > :45:57.his report. The proportion of directors, FTSE 100 companies,
:45:57. > :46:01.women, is 17%. It was 12% two years ago. We have increased that
:46:01. > :46:06.proportion faster in all but three countries in the use. The UK is
:46:06. > :46:11.moving in the right directions. What about a time limit piece of
:46:11. > :46:15.legislation that Shami suggested. He would just have that league,
:46:15. > :46:24.like the all-women shortlists in Parliament, then culture will have
:46:24. > :46:31.The best thing is for this to be a business-led approach that is run
:46:31. > :46:37.by business and we push in the right direction. Race
:46:37. > :46:45.discrimination legislation was not a business-led approach.
:46:45. > :46:49.Legislation has a harder edge to it. But there is already equality in
:46:49. > :46:56.legislation, gender equality in legislation, and the gap has closed
:46:56. > :47:01.a wart. You have got to work out what works and if we are moving in
:47:01. > :47:06.this direction, and faster than almost any country in the EU, we
:47:06. > :47:11.are making progress. But Mike position is clear and I think we
:47:11. > :47:16.should hold open the option -- at my position. We should let
:47:16. > :47:19.brilliant people make the progress and get things happening. He has
:47:20. > :47:24.walked the tightrope very well because he has a private position
:47:24. > :47:30.and there is a government position. This is a good review of what
:47:30. > :47:33.Parliament did yesterday. Hands up to us on that!
:47:33. > :47:36.Now, remember the Leveson Report? Our guest of the Day, Shami
:47:36. > :47:44.Chakrabarti, will. She was one of the assessors to the inquiry, who
:47:44. > :47:47.listened to much of the evidence. Sir Brian Leveson delivered his
:47:47. > :47:50.report into the Culture, Practice and Ethics of the Press at the end
:47:50. > :47:53.of last year and, over the next few months, the Government and the
:47:53. > :47:56.media industry will have to decide how the report should be
:47:56. > :47:58.implemented. Let's bring ourselves up to date with that process with
:47:58. > :48:03.our political correspondent, Ross Hawkins, who also followed the
:48:03. > :48:08.inquiry throughout. Where are we? I am recovering
:48:08. > :48:13.slowly from the process! What they normally do is just throw press
:48:13. > :48:17.releases and statements at each other in a political battle. Here,
:48:17. > :48:22.but throw around entire draft bills and there are now five different
:48:22. > :48:28.potential versions of legislation that might or mocked -- that might
:48:28. > :48:33.or might not make it into law. I understand one drawn up by the
:48:33. > :48:37.government, to prove how difficult it would be, is going to be
:48:37. > :48:41.published by a campaign group he says it proves it is all simple.
:48:41. > :48:47.They are now talking about a royal charter to set up a body that would
:48:47. > :48:52.check whether a new press regulator was doing its job, the appeal is
:48:52. > :48:55.that would not need legislation. The bit that might get people to
:48:55. > :48:59.join in with that process would need legislation and that is where
:48:59. > :49:05.the debate is that. The Minister and her opposite numbers are
:49:05. > :49:09.meeting today, editors will meet on Thursday. You feel we are drawing
:49:09. > :49:19.towards a conclusion at some stage but I am sure the conclusion will
:49:19. > :49:22.not look much like the one drawn up originally pine -- by Sir Brian
:49:22. > :49:27.Leveson after we spent so long sitting through those hearings.
:49:27. > :49:33.eight months, I believe! -- eight months.
:49:33. > :49:38.And Labour's Helen Goodman joins us now. Why cannot the press get their
:49:38. > :49:47.own house in order? They have not fought a long time and that is why
:49:47. > :49:50.we had the Leveson Inquiry a. you trust them to do so? We want a
:49:50. > :49:55.beat -- a free press independent of government and politicians because
:49:55. > :50:01.it plays a vital role in holding power to recount, but we need to do
:50:01. > :50:05.what the judge recommended and to create some real inducements to an
:50:05. > :50:13.ethical proprietor or editor to join a better club. The PCC was not
:50:13. > :50:19.enough. Should there be a legal basis? Should there be some statute
:50:19. > :50:24.backing this up? There has been a false debate about whether you have
:50:24. > :50:29.a statute or not. We need to make sure that we -- we need to make
:50:29. > :50:35.sure nobody is compelled to join the decent club, but if they do,
:50:35. > :50:42.Beryl legal benefits. One way to do that is to have a statute. -- there
:50:42. > :50:47.are legal benefits. It just a hat - - it just has to make it worth your
:50:47. > :50:53.while. So if you go to court, you will get benefits in terms of costs
:50:53. > :51:00.or damages that might be awarded against you. Our inducement enough?
:51:01. > :51:05.We need to have those. -- are inducements enough. It is important
:51:05. > :51:12.that what replaces the PCC is not just better, but that the public
:51:12. > :51:19.can see there is a guarantee it will be better on a continuing
:51:19. > :51:25.process -- basis. So the guarantee does need legislation back in it?
:51:25. > :51:29.We think that is the best way to make sure it will happen. We cannot
:51:29. > :51:36.see there is a satisfactory alternative. What would you like to
:51:36. > :51:41.see? Ed Miliband called for full implementation of the report, did
:51:41. > :51:46.he rushed to judgment a bit? and we have now had time to draft -
:51:46. > :51:52.- to draft a bill, one of the five that has been published, that gives
:51:52. > :51:54.a commitment to freedom of the press and it gives a system for
:51:54. > :52:01.recognising the new independent regulatory body, at which we want
:52:01. > :52:07.the press to set up, but there must be criteria which can be seen to be
:52:07. > :52:10.met and to meet the public's genuine concerns. But you do not
:52:10. > :52:20.think that is necessary in terms of having some sort of accountability
:52:20. > :52:22.
:52:22. > :52:27.in law. Various a democratic point, the press are not accountable? --
:52:27. > :52:32.there is a democratic point. A few are to get these benefits in court
:52:32. > :52:38.and you say aye am in this -- if you are to get these benefits in
:52:38. > :52:45.court and if you say that you are in this club, somebody has to judge
:52:45. > :52:49.if your club is good enough. If newspaper editors do not join up
:52:49. > :52:56.and if somebody decides, I am not going to play with this, it does
:52:56. > :53:03.not work. It could work because if the judge is recommending that you
:53:03. > :53:07.-- that if you do not join at the club, be decent club, if you put
:53:07. > :53:17.yourselves outside the club and you find yourself pseudonym privacy
:53:17. > :53:22.action or a defamation action, they should be damages against you. --
:53:22. > :53:29.if you find yourself in a privacy action. Would this work? If the
:53:29. > :53:34.people that did not join work small publications, this would work, but
:53:34. > :53:39.if large proprietors did not join in, we would have a problem. The
:53:39. > :53:44.government has agreed to the status quo is not an option. Everybody
:53:44. > :53:50.agrees come up of the cross-party talks going to succeed?
:53:50. > :53:57.everybody agrees with that, but of across party talks going to succeed.
:53:57. > :54:01.And will we have a new regulator by next week? I am not sure if it will
:54:01. > :54:07.be agreed by next week but we hope the government will look at this
:54:07. > :54:12.bill and a constructive light and see it meets the criteria and does
:54:12. > :54:18.not mean a big regulatory burden, which is what they were talking
:54:18. > :54:21.about. Thank you. Now, the start of the
:54:21. > :54:25.Olympics may seem like a distant memory, but for our guest of the
:54:25. > :54:28.day here, it was a day she won't forget in a hurry. She was one of
:54:28. > :54:31.the flag carriers at Danny Boyle's opening ceremony, along with
:54:31. > :54:35.esteemed figures such as Muhammad Ali and Doreen Lawrence. So how did
:54:35. > :54:40.Shami get there? I think it is mad that we do not. I
:54:40. > :54:48.am too simplistic and so are these very successful prosecutors in the
:54:48. > :54:56.United States. We can use listening devices, if I'd bug their bedroom,
:54:56. > :55:04.their conversations can be used and all this would be relevant. -- I
:55:04. > :55:08.bug. I want to pay tribute as a mother and campaigner to Janice be
:55:08. > :55:13.started a campaign for her own son and he saw it was not just about
:55:13. > :55:23.around San but about everybody's sons and daughters and vulnerable
:55:23. > :55:24.
:55:24. > :55:31.relatives. -- son. I am not paying attention! It is no wonder all
:55:31. > :55:37.those people and up in jail! -- a foreign jail!
:55:37. > :55:42.Shami Chakrabarti, the founder of Liberty.
:55:42. > :55:47.She has been cringing with embarrassment. The opening ceremony
:55:47. > :55:56.was watched by so many people, but I was not the founder of Liberty,
:55:56. > :56:00.it was founded in 1934! I know I am sharing -- showing my age, but I am
:56:00. > :56:03.just the caretaker of Liberty. We are joined now by the PR Guru
:56:03. > :56:06.Mark Borkowski, who has advised a number of celebrities on their
:56:06. > :56:13.image. How do you think Shami has been able to transcend the
:56:14. > :56:20.political left and right to reach this national treasure status?
:56:20. > :56:27.Shami is incredibly bright, as we sought a minute to go with that
:56:27. > :56:31.minister, she is brilliant at punctuating people. -- as we saw.
:56:32. > :56:35.With a media dominated by white middle-aged commentators, she is a
:56:35. > :56:45.breath of fresh air and she cut through the rhetoric we have had
:56:45. > :56:47.
:56:47. > :56:52.for years about social mobility. -- cuts. Very few icons are as bright
:56:52. > :56:56.and direct as her. But having built her up, she could come crashing
:56:56. > :57:03.down, that is the dangers. daresay she has a lot or control
:57:03. > :57:07.and is more sensible about her image. -- a lot more control. If
:57:07. > :57:11.you look back at the key element of when the silver screen was in its
:57:11. > :57:16.heyday, there was Arnold publicist he said it was the strength of
:57:17. > :57:22.character that was important -- there was an old publicist. You are
:57:22. > :57:29.being kind but we need a reality check! You use words like icon and
:57:29. > :57:35.national treasure, one of my favourite movies of the 1980s is
:57:35. > :57:39.called Working Girl, and there is a great line from her friend who says,
:57:39. > :57:49.sometimes I sing and dance around the house in my underwear, do not
:57:49. > :57:51.
:57:52. > :57:56.make meet Madonna! I am a human rights campaigner! -- make me. A
:57:56. > :58:01.did you have reservations about the Olympics? When the phone call came
:58:01. > :58:06.through, I thought it was a joke and I played along for five minutes.
:58:06. > :58:13.When I realised it was not a joke, I had reservations because I
:58:13. > :58:17.thought, what if the protesters get arrested and it is like Beijing?
:58:18. > :58:24.What if this is an excuse to clamp down on civil liberties? But then
:58:24. > :58:29.they said the magic words, Doreen Lawrence, who had agreed to do this.
:58:29. > :58:35.So I phoned up my friend and heroin and I said, you have agreed to do
:58:35. > :58:43.this, are you not worried that if there is a clampdown on young black
:58:43. > :58:50.children of protesters, that you could be used to endorse that? --