:00:44. > :00:48.Good morning, welcome to the Daily Politics. The hostage crisis is
:00:48. > :00:52.still unfolding this morning, but some foreign workers, including
:00:52. > :00:55.British Aris ditches, have been freed, with other still being held
:00:55. > :00:58.by terrorists as Algerian forces continue their controversial
:00:58. > :01:02.operation. -- including British hostages.
:01:02. > :01:06.It was the most long awaited speech of modern political times, but
:01:06. > :01:10.instead of talking Europe in Amsterdam, the Prime Minister had
:01:10. > :01:14.to make a statement on Algeria in the Commons this morning. We will
:01:14. > :01:18.show you what he said about Algeria and what he was planning to say on
:01:18. > :01:22.Europe. And after this former minister
:01:22. > :01:28.compared his old boss Michael Gove to a sitcom character, unnamed
:01:28. > :01:38.government sources called Tim Loughton a lazy, incompetent
:01:38. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :01:44.narcissist. What is going on at the All that in the next hour. With us
:01:44. > :01:49.for the first half of the programme, Spectator editor Fraser Nelson, and
:01:49. > :01:52.former Liberal Democrat press secretary and editor of an online
:01:52. > :01:57.newspaper for young people like me, Miranda Green. What are you
:01:57. > :02:00.laughing at? I would not dream of it! The Prime Minister should have
:02:00. > :02:05.been in Amsterdam this morning unveiling his plan to repatriate
:02:05. > :02:10.powers from Brussels and maybe even give us a promise of a euro
:02:10. > :02:15.referendum. Instead, at 11am, he made a statement to the House about
:02:15. > :02:18.the unfolding hostage situation in Algeria. Mr Speaker, during the
:02:18. > :02:23.course of Thursday morning, the Algerian forces mounted an
:02:23. > :02:28.operation. Mr Speaker, we were not informed of this in advance. I was
:02:28. > :02:31.told by the Algeria Prime Minister while it was taking place. He said
:02:31. > :02:34.the terrorists had tried to flee, that they judged there was an
:02:35. > :02:39.immediate threat to the hostages, and had felt obliged to respond.
:02:39. > :02:43.When I spoke to the Algerian Prime Minister last night, he told me
:02:43. > :02:47.this first operation was complete, but this is a large and complex
:02:47. > :02:51.site and they are still pursuing terrorists and possibly some of the
:02:51. > :02:55.hostages in other areas of the site. The Algerian Prime Minister has
:02:55. > :02:59.told me this morning they are looking at all possible routes to
:02:59. > :03:03.resolve the crisis. Mr Speaker, last night the number of British
:03:03. > :03:08.citizens at risk was less than 30. Thankfully, we now know that number
:03:08. > :03:11.has been quite significantly reduced, and I'm sure the House
:03:11. > :03:16.will understand why, during an ongoing operation, I cannot say
:03:16. > :03:21.more on this at this stage. That was the prime minister leaving many
:03:21. > :03:25.questions unanswered, despite that statement, so let's talked to Chris
:03:25. > :03:30.Mason, who I hope can tell us more. He is in a very snowy London, as
:03:30. > :03:36.you can see. The Prime Minister did give us more information, but I do
:03:36. > :03:41.not yet have a clear picture of how many hostages have been liberated,
:03:41. > :03:45.how many are still in captivity, and how many have become fatalities.
:03:45. > :03:48.Yes, there are two strands to the uncertainties in all of this.
:03:48. > :03:52.Firstly, there has been repeated statements from the Foreign Office
:03:52. > :03:56.and from Downing Street that have emphasised that they have a limited
:03:57. > :04:00.amount of information, and then added to that is the inevitable
:04:00. > :04:03.caution from the Prime Minister in how much of the information he is
:04:03. > :04:07.aware of he is willing to make public, given that this is an
:04:07. > :04:12.ongoing situation, given that there still are a good number of hostages,
:04:12. > :04:18.including a good number from the UK, who are still being held. The key
:04:18. > :04:20.fact that we learnt in the statement from the Prime Minister,
:04:20. > :04:25.and he stood on his feet taking questions now, one hour into taking
:04:25. > :04:29.questions from backbenchers, is that last night less than 30
:04:29. > :04:34.Britons were being held hostage. Now that number is, as we heard,
:04:34. > :04:40.significantly reduced, but we do not have a specific number. Chris,
:04:40. > :04:46.do we have any idea yet of British casualties? No. In specific terms,
:04:46. > :04:51.we do not, beyond the initial announcement that a Briton had been
:04:51. > :04:55.killed, beyond hearing that there was a man from Northern Ireland, a
:04:55. > :05:00.career of an Irish passport, he was freed, we do not have any more
:05:00. > :05:04.information. As I say, those two strands to the uncertainty mean
:05:04. > :05:08.that we are learning a limited amount in the statement in the last
:05:08. > :05:13.hour. There is an expectation, the Prime Minister said, that he hopes
:05:13. > :05:15.he may be able to say a little bit more later today, but there is real
:05:16. > :05:19.understandable nervousness within the Foreign Office about too much
:05:19. > :05:24.information coming out too soon and potentially imperilling the lives
:05:25. > :05:29.of those who are still there. Frustration, too, Andrew, about the
:05:29. > :05:32.procedure adopted by the Algerian government, the Algerian forces, a
:05:32. > :05:35.sense that the Prime Minister really wanted to hear in advance
:05:36. > :05:40.that they were going to attempt a rescue mission, and he only found
:05:40. > :05:43.out what it was under way once it was already under way to. There was
:05:43. > :05:46.a clear sense in the Prime Minister's tone that he would have
:05:46. > :05:52.liked to have known in advance, and that British special forces could
:05:52. > :05:57.have been involved, they were certainly available. Thank you very
:05:57. > :05:59.much for that update, very interesting, on the ongoing hostage
:06:00. > :06:04.situation with British lives still at stake, and the developing
:06:04. > :06:09.relationship between Britain and Algeria. To discuss the crisis, we
:06:09. > :06:14.are joined by the chair of the foreign affairs select committee
:06:14. > :06:17.Richard Ottaway. Are you surprised that the Algerians went ahead with
:06:17. > :06:24.this operation without even informing the British or other
:06:24. > :06:28.countries involved, never mind involving them? Good morning. No. I
:06:28. > :06:33.think it is barely understandable, when you have got a clandestine
:06:33. > :06:37.operation going on that you do not give notice in advance, much as
:06:37. > :06:42.other countries, no matter how much they may be affected, may want to
:06:42. > :06:46.be involved. As far as the special forces are concerned, the Algerians
:06:46. > :06:50.are, you know, they have got a pretty efficient military machine,
:06:50. > :06:53.and I'm sure they have the capacity to conduct the operation themselves.
:06:53. > :06:57.Frankly, it is far from certain that if the SAS had been involved
:06:57. > :07:01.it would have had a different outcome. We do not seem to have
:07:02. > :07:05.much influence over Algeria. They are not a member of the EU, we have
:07:05. > :07:09.a good bilateral relationship with them, there is no lack of harmony
:07:09. > :07:12.in our relationship with Algeria at the moment, and this is a very
:07:12. > :07:17.complex, fast-moving operation here, and I think we have got to give
:07:17. > :07:23.them the benefit of the doubt. you in any doubt... Last night on
:07:23. > :07:26.BBC One's This Week, Kofi Annan said he was in no doubt that the
:07:26. > :07:31.terrorist action in Algeria was linked to the French intervention
:07:31. > :07:35.in Mali. What is your view? I think this is something we have got to
:07:35. > :07:39.look at now. There is a whole change in the character of the
:07:39. > :07:44.region going on here as Al-Qaeda have been moved out of Afghanistan
:07:45. > :07:49.and Pakistan, moving into Somalia, Nigeria, Mali, Algeria, and I think
:07:49. > :07:53.we have got to rethink our strategy here, and much closer co-operation
:07:53. > :07:56.is required between the intelligence services, military
:07:56. > :08:00.organisations, and diplomatically. Although some people do not like
:08:00. > :08:04.the phrase, you get the sense this is the latest front in the war on
:08:04. > :08:07.terror. That is right, and I think it is really interesting that
:08:07. > :08:12.everyone was so excited about the Arab Spring, but partly because
:08:12. > :08:17.they got a bit of democracy in the region might take the pressure
:08:17. > :08:22.towards Islamism away, but actually, the Arab Spring having happened,
:08:22. > :08:25.this explosion of Islamist activity has taken place anyway, so it is an
:08:25. > :08:30.enormous challenge not just for the West, but for the rest of Africa.
:08:30. > :08:35.The one thing we learn is that it is, in some way, a knock-on effect
:08:35. > :08:39.from events in Libya, because after the Gaddafi regime collapsed, the
:08:39. > :08:43.number of these people had been closer to Gaddafi moved south.
:08:43. > :08:48.Apparently, they raided all the arms dump, so they were incredibly
:08:48. > :08:52.well armed, they moved into Mali and dominated the north of that,
:08:52. > :08:55.enough to be able to move south and threaten the capital. I think what
:08:55. > :08:58.we are seeing, what we had thought was a fairly straightforward
:08:58. > :09:04.operation of Libya that got rid of Colonel Gaddafi has started a chain
:09:04. > :09:08.reaction. The first phase was having these nomadic mercenaries,
:09:08. > :09:14.moving south with their heavy armour, and the Algerian government
:09:14. > :09:18.said that the attempt at the gas terminal was in response to the
:09:18. > :09:20.French action in Mali. It looks right now as if this was a well
:09:20. > :09:25.organised and deliberate retaliation to the French action,
:09:25. > :09:28.which raises the question, if this is how they are going to respond,
:09:28. > :09:34.not by attacking French soldiers but raiding Western interests and
:09:34. > :09:38.the rest of Africa, then similar fields in Morocco, Libya and
:09:38. > :09:41.Nigeria would also be at risk. I think David Cameron is realising
:09:41. > :09:46.that Libya was the start of something but we are not seen the
:09:46. > :09:50.end. I have just been told that Alex Salmond has been discussing
:09:50. > :09:54.the Scottish hostages in the gas compound, the Scots have been freed,
:09:54. > :09:59.we are waiting to hear about the rest of the British hostages who
:09:59. > :10:02.are still there. Should we be giving more, and by week, I do not
:10:02. > :10:08.just mean Britain, but the European Union and the United States, should
:10:08. > :10:12.we be giving the French more support in Mali? Well, we have a
:10:13. > :10:16.bilateral agreement with the French, and we would give them whatever
:10:16. > :10:20.they asked for, because we have undertaken to do so in a military
:10:20. > :10:24.treaty. If they ask for blitz on the ground, would we give them
:10:25. > :10:28.that? -- Boots. There is co- operation with the French in the
:10:28. > :10:31.treaty, it is not like NATO where an attack on one is an attack on
:10:31. > :10:35.the other, but there is an understanding that these matters
:10:36. > :10:40.are under discussion. We would not give them everything they would ask
:10:40. > :10:44.for, we would consider in a friendly way what they ask for, but
:10:44. > :10:49.if they ask for the Black Watch, we would not give them that without a
:10:49. > :10:52.big debate, would we? I did not think it has got to that point at
:10:52. > :10:56.the moment, and indeed we would be reluctant to put feet underground
:10:57. > :11:01.just when we will be drawing troops out of Afghanistan. -- feet on the
:11:01. > :11:07.ground. So are the French. They had a much smaller commitment and are
:11:07. > :11:12.already out now. You know, you actually have to watch and see what
:11:12. > :11:17.is going on in both these operations. If I can go back way
:11:17. > :11:20.point raised by both Fraser and Miranda about has Libya triggered
:11:20. > :11:24.something, if you urge democracy on countries like Libya and Egypt, you
:11:24. > :11:28.have got to accept what it throws up. What we have got there is
:11:28. > :11:31.moderate Islam, and these are Islamist we can and have to do
:11:31. > :11:35.business with. It does not necessarily follow that radical
:11:35. > :11:39.Islam will come out of that. I think actually you have got a more
:11:39. > :11:44.sinister operation going on which is opportunistic, and I think they
:11:44. > :11:48.are making a fair point, but I think it would be a mistake to say
:11:48. > :11:53.that because Islamic democracy has arrived, that means fundamentalist
:11:53. > :11:57.Islam will follow. But it certainly takes the lead of other Islamist
:11:57. > :12:01.pressures. We in the West like these countries with nice, tidy
:12:01. > :12:05.borders, but that is not the way they work, tried to move across
:12:05. > :12:09.borders, and people are saying in Syria, let's help the rebels, but
:12:09. > :12:13.we are not thinking about the knock-on effects. I think we are
:12:13. > :12:17.too quick to think, let's get rid of the bad guy, without thinking of
:12:17. > :12:22.the consequences. That is exactly the point I was going to make, it
:12:22. > :12:26.is also to do with these being very mobile people, moving across a
:12:26. > :12:30.continent to find the most convenient and conducive home from
:12:30. > :12:36.which to export terrorism. Clearly, Mali became something akin to
:12:36. > :12:43.Afghanistan. There is no Islamist democracy in Algeria or Mali.
:12:43. > :12:50.is democracy in Algeria. His there? Yes, you have a parliament and a
:12:50. > :12:54.government. We had a parliament in Moscow! Democracy comes in...
:12:54. > :12:59.certainly none in Mali, they had a military coup. Democracy comes in
:12:59. > :13:03.many forms. Going back to Syria macro, the reason the British
:13:03. > :13:08.government is hesitating about Syria, they are far from certain
:13:08. > :13:12.about who the opposition is now, its nature and its composition.
:13:12. > :13:15.Britain has endorsed them. We have endorsed the transitional council,
:13:15. > :13:20.which is not necessarily the same as the people fighting on the
:13:20. > :13:25.ground. So why have we endorse the transitional council if we do not
:13:25. > :13:29.know who they are? Because ultimately we do think that Assad
:13:29. > :13:33.will fall and we want to be in there, trying to influence them as
:13:33. > :13:37.soon as possible. You want to be on the winning side. We always want to
:13:37. > :13:40.be on the winning side. Listening to the Prime Minister today, he was
:13:40. > :13:45.talking in very general terms about the Islamic threat in Africa, and
:13:45. > :13:49.it was very resident of the language we use about Al-Qaeda in
:13:49. > :13:53.Afghanistan, these guys are a threat, they will come and get as
:13:53. > :13:59.later, and part of me wonders of Mali may be David Cameron's third
:13:59. > :14:04.war. Tony Blair at five, didn't he? Why should he hold back?! Thank you
:14:04. > :14:07.for being with us, Richard Ottaway. The PM's euros thoughts have been a
:14:07. > :14:12.long time coming, and thanks to events in Algeria, we will have to
:14:12. > :14:15.wait still longer. Well, not quite. Well-placed stories in this
:14:15. > :14:18.morning's newspapers of a sneak preview of the speech because they
:14:18. > :14:22.were handed out by Downing Street when they still thought the speech
:14:22. > :14:25.was going ahead. It was not cancelled until early in the
:14:25. > :14:28.evening. They reveal the Prime Minister plan to talk about his
:14:28. > :14:32.growing frustration with Europe, there's a surprise, highlighting
:14:32. > :14:36.three issues. First, the economic problems in the eurozone which are
:14:36. > :14:42.pushing Europe towards closer integration. Second, a crisis of
:14:42. > :14:45.European competitiveness, as other nations across the world saw ahead.
:14:45. > :14:51.Third, a gap between Europe and its citizens which is growing ever
:14:51. > :14:56.wider. That has led to a lack of democratic accountability and
:14:56. > :14:59.consents that is felt particularly acutely in Britain. Finally, he
:14:59. > :15:04.planned a stark warning, if we do not address these challenges, the
:15:04. > :15:14.danger is that Europe will fail and the British people will drift
:15:14. > :15:20.
:15:20. > :15:23.It is strange that we're able to tell you what is in a speech even
:15:23. > :15:27.though the speech will not be delivered this morning. Fraser
:15:27. > :15:33.Nelson, what do you make of the content of what he was planning to
:15:33. > :15:37.say? This was like a good Eurovision Song contest entry,
:15:37. > :15:42.something designed to resonate across borders. You have got to hit
:15:42. > :15:47.both the domestic and foreign audience. He was saying that Europe
:15:48. > :15:51.needs to reform and Britain is one of the good guys. You want us in
:15:51. > :15:57.the EU because we will be encouraged in this process that you
:15:57. > :16:01.all want. But there was not much detail. The key points in the
:16:01. > :16:08.speech are still those that James Forsyth outlined in the Spectator a
:16:08. > :16:13.couple of weeks ago. There will be re negotiation before 2018. That
:16:13. > :16:18.will be contingent on a Tory majority which is the biggest if in
:16:18. > :16:24.the whole equation. The tone of these excerpts that we have is
:16:24. > :16:31.quite Europe friendly? He is trying to have it both ways. He wants to
:16:31. > :16:39.feed red meat to his backbenchers, but he is also saying to pro-
:16:39. > :16:42.Europeans, if it gets better, we will stay in. Yes. The Prime
:16:42. > :16:50.Minister seems to me like somebody who is having a relationship crisis
:16:50. > :16:54.and taking bad advice from a friend in a pub. In this case, that friend
:16:54. > :16:59.is the wing of the party who is very hostile to Europe. They are
:16:59. > :17:05.saying, you have got to give them an ultimatum. That does not really
:17:05. > :17:11.work. That gets you into a negative situation. That alone would not
:17:11. > :17:16.have pleased a lot of his own backbenchers. No, and it was not
:17:16. > :17:21.intended to. The very fact that he wanted to find some random location
:17:21. > :17:29.in Europe to give the speech was a message that it was for the people
:17:29. > :17:38.back home and those people in Europe as well. He can dress it up
:17:38. > :17:44.however he wants, but his party will not like it. Do you know where
:17:44. > :17:48.he is on the referendum? Now it is mac. Fraser assured us this morning
:17:48. > :17:54.as many people have done that David Cameron does not want Britain to
:17:54. > :18:00.leave the European Union. He said so himself. Indeed. We take it on
:18:00. > :18:05.trust. It may be true. There is this danger of drifting out. Ed
:18:05. > :18:10.Miliband, to his credit, has expressed his very eloquently in
:18:10. > :18:17.the last few weeks. The problem is that his strategy to manage the
:18:17. > :18:19.situation of his own backbenchers is very risky. You introduce a
:18:19. > :18:25.referendum, this idea of renegotiation, which is very
:18:25. > :18:29.dangerous. It may not work. You may not be able to offer people
:18:29. > :18:35.something in a referendum that will satisfy at that particular wing of
:18:35. > :18:41.opinion. Then you have to offer them another referendum. It will
:18:41. > :18:45.keep us in a job! Why are we even speaking about this? It is all
:18:45. > :18:51.predicated on Mr Cameron winning an overall majority, not just getting
:18:51. > :18:55.back into power. The Liberal Democrats would not let him go down
:18:55. > :19:04.this road again. The bookies will not give you good odds on that at
:19:04. > :19:09.the moment. They will give you 4-1. It is more likely that Scotland
:19:09. > :19:14.will vote to go independent. It is more likely that Nick Clegg will be
:19:15. > :19:24.gone before Christmas. It is more likely that the royal baby will be
:19:25. > :19:29.
:19:29. > :19:34.born blonde. That threw me. Off all the many IFS, this is the biggest
:19:34. > :19:39.one. When David Cameron comes back he will be under pressure to say
:19:39. > :19:44.that any government he reads will have his referendum. Even if he
:19:44. > :19:48.goes into a coalition of Liberal- Democrats. As always under these
:19:48. > :19:54.circumstances, I wanted to ask where the postponement of the
:19:54. > :19:58.speech leaves us. Is this an advantage to Mr Cameron, or having
:19:58. > :20:04.marched all his men to the top of the hell, he has now marched them
:20:04. > :20:11.down again? Does he have to march them back up? I think he probably
:20:11. > :20:16.does. This adds to the uncertainty. That is very damaging for the UK.
:20:16. > :20:22.They is pressure on the currency at the moment. Our allies do not know
:20:22. > :20:30.where we stand and there is panic in Washington. There is irritation
:20:30. > :20:35.among our EU allies. It could be a damp squib? I suspect it will be.
:20:35. > :20:45.No one mentions public opinion. Only one-third of people in this
:20:45. > :20:45.
:20:45. > :20:50.country think that membership of the EU is a good idea. I think you
:20:50. > :20:55.have to be cautious about that. If you look at the recent YouGov
:20:55. > :21:05.opinion poll, it is moving in the other direction. When you start to
:21:05. > :21:09.speak about the cost of leaving the EU, it starts to go the other way.
:21:09. > :21:13.Finally, on this issue, I understand the Prime Minister says
:21:13. > :21:21.that if he does get this overall majority, he wants to repatriate
:21:21. > :21:31.parks. On the assumption he does that, I think he would then let us
:21:31. > :21:32.
:21:32. > :21:39.have a referendum. -- he wants to repatriate powers. If we vote no,
:21:39. > :21:44.what have we voted for? To leave, to exercise air writes. Maybe
:21:44. > :21:49.people will say, I quite like it the way it is. There will not be
:21:49. > :21:54.three options, there will be two questions. Does he realise that?
:21:54. > :21:58.Absolutely. That is the implication when he is speaking about the
:21:58. > :22:03.British exit. He has to focus their minds if you will not get through
:22:03. > :22:05.the negotiation. And we will have more on the speech
:22:05. > :22:09.that never was a little later in the programme.
:22:09. > :22:15.If you are a smoker, it is currently the NHS's job to help you
:22:15. > :22:17.quit. But from April, that responsibility shifts to local
:22:18. > :22:20.councils. So should those council workers' pensions be invested in
:22:20. > :22:23.tobacco stocks? Local authorities in the West Midlands have put
:22:23. > :22:25.nearly �130 million into cigarette companies and many others across
:22:25. > :22:33.the country have similar investments. It is a nice little
:22:33. > :22:39.earner but have they allowed their ethics to go up in smoke?
:22:39. > :22:43.Last year, smoking killed around 80,000 people in England. Latest
:22:43. > :22:50.figures show it cost the NHS more than �5 billion treating related
:22:50. > :22:56.diseases. That is why the NHS are keen to get the message across to
:22:56. > :23:01.smokers to quit. I tried it on my own but I was never successful. Oil
:23:01. > :23:07.was started smoking, especially during the holidays. Having someone
:23:07. > :23:11.to speak to you and encourage you was better. Because of the way the
:23:11. > :23:18.NHS is being reorganised, in April it will be your local councillor
:23:18. > :23:22.who will be responsible for stopping people smoking. But I have
:23:22. > :23:30.discovered via a series of Freedom of Information Act quiz, that
:23:30. > :23:36.councils in the West Midlands are or investing up to nearly �130
:23:36. > :23:45.million in tobacco companies through their pension pots. --
:23:45. > :23:51.Freedom of Information request. They are trying to persuade people
:23:51. > :23:54.to give up the product at the same time as this. What is the point?
:23:54. > :23:58.You could argue that their campaigning against their own
:23:58. > :24:04.interests as they are going along. They have got to get rid of the
:24:04. > :24:08.conflict of interest. Councils are currently investing �21 million in
:24:08. > :24:13.tobacco companies. They say it is because they have got to get the
:24:13. > :24:19.best deal possible for their pensioners. Some people think there
:24:19. > :24:24.is a conflict, but I do not think there is. We have an administrative
:24:24. > :24:28.function rather than a political one. We administer the pension fund
:24:28. > :24:35.and remind ourselves that this is the money of pensioners, not the
:24:35. > :24:40.money from the council. We try to get the best return we can. There
:24:40. > :24:44.is method in what some are describing as the council's madness.
:24:44. > :24:47.Over the past decade, tobacco stocks have done twice as well as
:24:47. > :24:55.the rest of the market and there had been to pay for a happy
:24:55. > :25:00.retirement for many workers. Across Warwickshire, councils hold tobacco
:25:00. > :25:05.shares worth seven. Million pounds. Councils in Staffordshire hold �31
:25:05. > :25:10.million, and the councils of the West Midlands have almost �60
:25:10. > :25:15.million. Will they change their tune? Staffordshire are the only
:25:15. > :25:21.authority promising a review. For the others, it seems that tobacco
:25:21. > :25:27.is a hard habit to kick. I think that is a good story. I am
:25:27. > :25:30.amazed at these councils investing in tobacco companies. I thought
:25:30. > :25:37.they were so politically aware that they would check with your money is
:25:37. > :25:42.going. Absolutely. Recently they got in trouble with ill-advised
:25:42. > :25:46.investments in Iceland. They lost a lot of public money. You would
:25:46. > :25:50.think that in the wake of that they would have gone through all their
:25:50. > :25:54.investments and wake up with they were wise Finance Lee, like the
:25:54. > :26:00.Iceland mistake, but also whether they were ethical. This will be
:26:00. > :26:08.hard to defend. The devil has the best investments. The highest rate
:26:08. > :26:13.of return! The European Union condemns smoking but still
:26:13. > :26:21.subsidises tobacco manufacturers. Some of the most potent tobacco
:26:21. > :26:27.that the world makes, be subsidised as the ghost of it. -- and they
:26:27. > :26:30.subsidise the production office. It is dumped in Africa. I think that
:26:30. > :26:35.this report will probably trigger most councils to have a late
:26:35. > :26:40.because it is not just tobacco, it is a whole lot of things. If you
:26:40. > :26:46.want an ethical Investment Portfolio, they are available, but
:26:46. > :26:52.they do not pay as much. More on a curious story we looked
:26:52. > :26:55.at yesterday. You may recall that former Children's Minister Tim
:26:55. > :27:01.Loughton created a stir earlier in the week when he criticised his
:27:01. > :27:04.former boss, Michael Gove. You can never have too much of a good thing
:27:04. > :27:08.so before we hear about the latest twist in this tale, here is a
:27:08. > :27:13.reminder of what he told the Education Select Committee. There
:27:13. > :27:18.is an upstairs downstairs mentality in the department. The ministers
:27:18. > :27:25.are all on the 7th floor. Officials are summoned to her office when I
:27:25. > :27:28.just wanted to have a quick chat. If I wanted to do that, the meeting
:27:28. > :27:33.had to go in the diary. Occasionally I went to another
:27:33. > :27:38.flower and it was like a state visit. Most officials have never
:27:38. > :27:44.met the Secretary of State, other than when he will troop out some
:27:44. > :27:48.chosen people for the new year party, like Mr Grace from Grace
:27:48. > :27:51.Brothers, to tell us we have all done terribly well.
:27:51. > :27:55.How has that gone down in the Department For Education? Not well
:27:55. > :27:57.is the answer. Fraser's magazine, the Spectator, carried a story
:27:57. > :28:00.yesterday quoting an unnamed government source who did not hold
:28:00. > :28:10.back when it came to Mr Loughton. back when it came to Mr Loughton.
:28:10. > :28:22.
:28:22. > :28:25.back when it came to Mr Loughton. Some of that was clearly
:28:25. > :28:29.unparliamentary language but there is a little bit of confusion around
:28:29. > :28:32.about what our next parliamentarian was getting at in a Commons debate.
:28:32. > :28:40.Here is Christchurch MP Christopher Chope in the House of Commons
:28:40. > :28:47.yesterday. Before I do that, let's get your reaction. This was a
:28:47. > :28:51.senior Department source. This was not an off-the-cuff reaction. They
:28:51. > :28:57.have been looking with increasing anger at the pauses that Tim
:28:57. > :29:01.Loughton has been striking since he left. I think he thought he could
:29:01. > :29:06.take a free hit at his old department, and slag off his old
:29:06. > :29:11.boss. He has found out that you cannot do that and not expect some
:29:11. > :29:17.form of retaliation, especially if you're playing a card that your
:29:17. > :29:21.colleagues do not believe you were ever entitled to play. What would
:29:22. > :29:28.you advise Tim Loughton to say in retaliation? I would not give him
:29:28. > :29:38.any advice because this is so much fun. That quote is every
:29:38. > :29:38.
:29:38. > :29:42.journalists's dream. The Department for Education has been extremely
:29:42. > :29:48.good under Michael Gove at making enemies. It now seems to be quite
:29:48. > :29:57.good at making enemies even of former ministers. I think they are
:29:57. > :30:02.slightly too happy. Michael Gove is such a gentle man. It is almost
:30:02. > :30:12.impossible to think of him saying a bad word about anybody, but that is
:30:12. > :30:12.
:30:12. > :30:22.not to say that the rest of his I dined, on all three nights, in
:30:22. > :30:25.
:30:25. > :30:28.the dining rooms, and almost nobody But the service was absolutely
:30:28. > :30:38.fantastic, Mr Speaker, because there was three servants for each
:30:38. > :30:40.
:30:40. > :30:45.person sitting down. Yes! Exactly! Can the Tories ever learn, plebs
:30:45. > :30:50.and now servants? That was a slip of the tongue, I am sure he sat
:30:50. > :30:55.down, it will look terrible, because it revives memories of
:30:55. > :31:00.plebgate and stuff, but I think this simply was a man taking a
:31:00. > :31:04.alliteration a little bit too far. Well, he got out of it by saying,
:31:04. > :31:10.we are all servants! Would you buy that? It would have been better to
:31:10. > :31:14.say it was a slip of the town, the word is waiter. It was probably not
:31:14. > :31:17.meant in a derogatory way, but it does not help, because when a
:31:17. > :31:24.Conservative politician is overheard making a remark like this,
:31:24. > :31:27.it adds to the impression of them being out-of-touch toffs.
:31:27. > :31:33.Christopher Chope lets the cat out of the back by referring to House
:31:33. > :31:37.of Commons waiters as servants! The Tories cannot escape this class
:31:37. > :31:41.trope, can they? They are vulnerable to this attack, and
:31:41. > :31:46.David Cameron fears is more than anything else. This is their state
:31:46. > :31:51.of Kryptonite to wave against him, and he just cowers. Similarly, they
:31:51. > :31:56.cannot handle it very well. They should have said, first off, sorry,
:31:56. > :32:02.there are millions of waiters in this country, and the idea that the
:32:02. > :32:07.Tories consider them servants is manna from heaven for Labour.
:32:07. > :32:11.easy how little slips of the tongue can be stared up into real rows.
:32:11. > :32:16.Upstairs downstairs again, it is not a good luck for the Tory party.
:32:16. > :32:22.OK, do we have any idea now, coming back to the Prime Minister, when
:32:22. > :32:25.this speech is going to be re scheduled? We don't. It is hard to
:32:25. > :32:29.believe he's going to wait more than another week. We already know
:32:29. > :32:33.the key points, we have seen phrases from it. If he leaves it
:32:33. > :32:38.more than seven days, it is going to become even more of a farce that
:32:38. > :32:42.it was a few days ago. He needs to visit Disneyland, somewhere in
:32:42. > :32:47.Europe, give it and come back. does he have to go to Europe to
:32:47. > :32:51.give it? It was supposed to be the symbolism, I am here, I am
:32:51. > :32:58.committed, still part of the club, I want us to remain in, but I think
:32:58. > :33:02.you are right, he should just get on and give the speech and move on.
:33:02. > :33:07.Can he do that old trick of a letter to his constituents which
:33:07. > :33:12.never gets to his constituents? Liam Fox does that. I don't know.
:33:12. > :33:16.He is going to have to... I think he has got a mild case of
:33:17. > :33:20.microphone phobia, the needs to get in front of it and come out with it.
:33:21. > :33:25.We will leave at there and see what happens. Thank you both for being
:33:25. > :33:29.with me today. Coming up in a moment, our monthly look at what
:33:29. > :33:33.has been happening in European politics, but for now it is time to
:33:33. > :33:37.say goodbye to my two guests, Fraser Nelson and Miranda Green.
:33:37. > :33:40.This week members of the European Parliament have been meeting in
:33:40. > :33:44.Strasbourg for their regular plenary session, so what have they
:33:44. > :33:54.been getting up to, and what else has been happening? Here's our
:33:54. > :33:56.
:33:56. > :34:02.guide to the latest from Europe in It is goodbye cybrid SARS Ireland
:34:02. > :34:06.takes over the presidency of the EU. -- Cyprus as. Enda Kenny says that
:34:07. > :34:11.Europe is at a crossroads. This presidency will be all about
:34:11. > :34:16.stability and jobs and growth. have been on the minds of MEPs as
:34:16. > :34:19.they called on member states to introduce a guarantee that no-one
:34:19. > :34:24.and a 25 goes without work or training for more than four months.
:34:24. > :34:27.But it is good news if you have got a job working for the EU, this
:34:27. > :34:34.month a levy on their salaries first introduced in 2004 has
:34:34. > :34:39.expired, which means that basic pay has gone up by 5.5%. Credit rating
:34:39. > :34:42.agencies face tougher rules after a vote by MEPs. Many of them blame
:34:42. > :34:46.the agencies for contributing to the financial crisis. And European
:34:46. > :34:49.foreign ministers have met to discuss the French military action
:34:49. > :34:59.and Mali. The EU will send a military training mission, but
:34:59. > :35:02.
:35:02. > :35:08.And with us for the next 30 minutes, and joined by Labour MEP Mary
:35:08. > :35:12.Honeyball, and UKIP MEP Roger Helmer. Welcome to you both. Let's
:35:12. > :35:16.look at one of those stories in more detail, the vote to rein in
:35:16. > :35:22.the influence of the credit rating agencies. I would suggest that
:35:22. > :35:26.given the role of the agencies in the run-up to the financial crash,
:35:26. > :35:30.at some stage they were going to be more regulated. I think that is
:35:30. > :35:35.absolutely right, Andrew. Credit rating agencies have evolved
:35:35. > :35:39.recently from being simply information givers, which is what
:35:39. > :35:45.they were originally setting out to do, to actually having a big impact
:35:45. > :35:49.on policy. Clearly, they have done that. The crash a couple of years
:35:49. > :35:54.ago was largely to do with the credit rating agencies, the way
:35:54. > :36:00.they behaved in the United States, with mortgages... Continuing to
:36:00. > :36:04.give AAA ratings... When they clearly were not. At just as badly,
:36:04. > :36:09.they have had an effect on sovereign debt, on countries. This
:36:09. > :36:12.country is desperate to keep its rating. Part of what gave the
:36:12. > :36:16.agency's their importance was that legislators, parliaments,
:36:16. > :36:23.governments in various countries, and even at the macro level, they
:36:23. > :36:26.gave them almost an official status. -- Bert EU level. They said that
:36:26. > :36:34.people at Bryn Estyn AAA bonds. is is a case of shooting the
:36:34. > :36:40.messenger. OK, they did a rotten job of protecting the crisis. But
:36:40. > :36:46.nobody has a good record on that. This amounts to an attack on free
:36:46. > :36:52.speech. These independent agencies are entitled to an opinion. Should
:36:52. > :36:55.they still have an opinion? But they will not have the same weight.
:36:56. > :36:59.These were serious attempts to curtail what they were able to say,
:36:59. > :37:03.and that is wrong. It is interesting that their opinion does
:37:03. > :37:06.not matter so much, they have downgraded France and the United
:37:06. > :37:11.States, and they are still borrowing as cheaply as we are.
:37:11. > :37:15.That may be true, but I think Roger is being a bit disingenuous with
:37:16. > :37:19.this for it is not just about them having an opinion, it is about the
:37:20. > :37:24.effect that the opinion had. You may be right that that that effect
:37:24. > :37:28.is not as important as it was, but the point of these legislation was
:37:28. > :37:33.to make the way they operate more open, so we could understand it, so
:37:33. > :37:37.there was a level of accountability. It is a good piece of legislation.
:37:38. > :37:41.Before events in Algeria unfolded, MEPs in Strasbourg were discussing
:37:41. > :37:47.the Islamist offensive in the neighbouring African country are
:37:47. > :37:51.Mali. One prominent MEP said it underlined the continued lack of a
:37:51. > :37:55.common foreign policy, so what has been the response, and should it
:37:55. > :37:59.have had one anyway? Yesterday EU foreign ministers were called in to
:37:59. > :38:02.an emergency meeting in Brussels to talk about Mali, and a promise to
:38:02. > :38:07.speed up the deployment of a training mission to support African
:38:07. > :38:11.troops. But of course it is France acting individually and acting
:38:11. > :38:14.quickly to send their forces to the north of the country with the
:38:14. > :38:19.support of other countries, including the United Kingdom on
:38:19. > :38:24.logistics. Perhaps this illustrates the challenge facing Baroness
:38:24. > :38:30.Ashton, the High Representative of the EU foreign ministry. Her job
:38:31. > :38:35.was created under the Lisbon Treaty, supported by the external actions
:38:35. > :38:40.servers. They won praise for their diplomacy over Iran's nuclear
:38:40. > :38:44.ambitions, but when it comes to major interventions, such as in
:38:44. > :38:48.Libya or Mali, it has been member- states that have taken the lead.
:38:48. > :38:53.You may remember the former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger
:38:53. > :38:57.once asked, who rely call if I want to call Europe? His successor,
:38:57. > :39:03.Hillary Clinton, she is said to get on well with Baroness Ashton, but
:39:03. > :39:07.it is still not clear if the question has been answered. What
:39:07. > :39:11.role has the European Union played in the unfolding events in the
:39:12. > :39:16.Maghreb? I think you describe it perfectly, that the action has come
:39:16. > :39:19.from one member states, France, which is now being assisted by
:39:19. > :39:23.Britain, so you have two member states on an inter-governmental
:39:23. > :39:27.basis starting out on that project. Then you have the European Union
:39:27. > :39:31.running along behind and desperately trying to bowl on
:39:31. > :39:37.sunbeds so that afterwards it can say it is a European initiative, a
:39:37. > :39:41.European initiative. -- bowled on some bits. Baroness Ashton has been
:39:41. > :39:46.wholly ineffective since she has been appointed, and her foreign
:39:46. > :39:52.service is forecast and no benefit. Inter-governmental ism can work
:39:52. > :39:56.very well, the European Union is, in effect, a relevant. Well, it is
:39:56. > :40:00.not irrelevant, and the point that Roger has very carefully not talked
:40:00. > :40:04.about is that these kind of foreign policy initiatives are, in fact,
:40:04. > :40:09.taken by member states, they always have been, and it has never been
:40:09. > :40:12.part of the EU remit of foreign affairs to do that. So what is the
:40:12. > :40:18.point of having Cathy Ashton? Because it brings its together and
:40:18. > :40:20.it allows the EU to do what it was set up to do, and what these
:40:20. > :40:24.particular foreign policy initiatives was set up to do,
:40:24. > :40:30.provide humanitarian and non- combatant aid where it is necessary.
:40:30. > :40:34.That is actually what she is doing. So what is the EU's foreign policy
:40:34. > :40:39.en Mali? What is happening is that Baroness Ashton brought together
:40:39. > :40:44.the heads for all the member states' foreign offices a few days
:40:44. > :40:48.ago, and they agreed there would be a EU training mission to Mali
:40:48. > :40:52.through to enable them to set up better and more sustainable
:40:52. > :40:56.democracy, a kind of enabling mission. It is nothing to do with
:40:56. > :41:00.the fighting, as indeed the UK is not part of the fighting. It is
:41:00. > :41:05.enabling the EU to claim to be involved. It is providing
:41:05. > :41:08.assistance to the people of Mali, who are finding themselves in is
:41:08. > :41:11.impossible situation, where they have terrorists in the north of the
:41:11. > :41:17.country, which is what the French are helping the Government's deal
:41:17. > :41:22.with. The EU is providing a very small amount of assistance to help
:41:22. > :41:26.the democracy in Mali. That is not really foreign policy, is it? It
:41:26. > :41:30.could come under international aid. Does the EU support the French
:41:30. > :41:37.intervention? That is part of a bilateral agreement between us and
:41:37. > :41:41.France... Does the EU support it? I know why the UK is involved, as a
:41:41. > :41:47.nation-state, and we have a treaty arrangement with France to help, as
:41:47. > :41:50.they were supposedly help us, too, but what is the EU policy?
:41:50. > :41:55.supports the initiative, and it wants to jump onto the bandwagon.
:41:55. > :41:59.It is not jumping onto the bandwagon, Roger. It does support
:41:59. > :42:04.the initiative. It followed a long. It did not take the initiative
:42:04. > :42:08.because it is not the EU's role, that is the point. I think it is
:42:08. > :42:13.all right as it is. I would not like to see an extension of the
:42:13. > :42:18.foreign policy role, because I would not, no, I wouldn't, because
:42:18. > :42:21.I think what you are dealing with, obviously, in the EU is a grouping
:42:21. > :42:26.of 27 countries, and I think it is difficult in the present
:42:26. > :42:29.circumstances to get any kind of agreement. A lot of those 27 do not
:42:29. > :42:32.want collective foreign policy. Here's another thought, it is
:42:32. > :42:37.probably going to be a long time before that changes! I think you
:42:37. > :42:42.are probably right. It has reached its limit and gone beyond. Since we
:42:42. > :42:46.are agreed, we will move on! If David Cameron had stood up in
:42:46. > :42:50.Amsterdam, his speech would have been heard across the Continent.
:42:50. > :42:54.Britain's attitude to Europe and his desire to renegotiate the
:42:54. > :42:57.relationship with the EU is a hot topic for politicians, not just
:42:57. > :43:07.here but across the European Continent, as David Thomson has
:43:07. > :43:08.
:43:08. > :43:11.Strasbourg on ice, a parliament waiting to see where David Cameron
:43:11. > :43:15.takes Britain and perhaps the rest of Europe. We will have to wait a
:43:15. > :43:20.little bit longer now, but let's speed things up with a quick guide
:43:20. > :43:24.to what they make of us and our Prime Minister. Europe is a family,
:43:24. > :43:30.and of course there are good pupils and bad pupils, at now we have the
:43:30. > :43:38.impression that the UK are proud to be the worst pupils in the
:43:38. > :43:41.classroom! Mr Cameron asking for a renegotiation of the position in
:43:41. > :43:45.the union, if we start with that and other countries can follow,
:43:45. > :43:49.then for example France can start and as for the negotiations,
:43:49. > :43:53.because they do not like the competition rules. German could ask
:43:53. > :43:59.for a new statute in Europe because they do not like to pay for other
:43:59. > :44:03.countries. At the end, we should have 27 different statutes for the
:44:03. > :44:07.27 different countries. So that cannot work. We all know the
:44:07. > :44:11.argument for renegotiation. Since we joined the EU, we have changed,
:44:11. > :44:15.it has changed, the world has changed. Therefore why should not
:44:15. > :44:18.be treaties which bind us changed to reflect that? The question is,
:44:18. > :44:23.will our European neighbours, the heavy hitters in Strasbourg, buy
:44:23. > :44:27.it? The good news for David Cameron... I think there is more
:44:27. > :44:31.support than you think, because lots of people are unhappy. They
:44:31. > :44:37.are in favour of the EU, but they wanted to reform, the Netherlands,
:44:37. > :44:41.perhaps the Scandinavian countries. There may be some people in Germany
:44:41. > :44:45.saying that we should reform the European Union because the Brussels
:44:45. > :44:48.bureaucracy is not regarded as efficient. Now, he is a member of
:44:48. > :44:51.the same group in the European Parliament as Britain's
:44:52. > :44:56.Conservative MEPs, so you might expect him to support David Cameron,
:44:56. > :45:00.but members of the Dutch governing party are not dismissive of his
:45:00. > :45:06.approach either. We want to hear what he is proposing. We want to
:45:06. > :45:10.look at it and say, where can we support you? We do not say no to
:45:10. > :45:14.renegotiation, we say, let's sits down and talk. I say to those in
:45:15. > :45:24.France to say, no discussion at all, we want France to be in, we want
:45:25. > :45:25.
:45:25. > :45:29.Britain to be in, so we have to be Renegotiation might not be as
:45:30. > :45:36.impossible as it is sometimes painted us. But David Cameron might
:45:36. > :45:46.be careful about what he wishes for. Renegotiation always entails
:45:46. > :45:49.
:45:49. > :45:52.several partners. It would be naive to it accept at one side gets all.
:45:52. > :46:00.Joint banking supervision in the City of London would be one
:46:00. > :46:05.concession that Europe would be looking for. We want to have great
:46:05. > :46:11.Britain inside of the European Union. We must go one step in the
:46:11. > :46:18.direction of Great Britain. Let's speak about the issues. But there
:46:19. > :46:25.are deadlines, as well, for Germany. Unifier us think that Britain
:46:25. > :46:35.should either put up or shut up. What is not possible is that any
:46:35. > :46:39.
:46:39. > :46:45.member states can have one foot in and the other foot out. -- unifiers.
:46:45. > :46:49.We need the UK with both feet in the EU. But if it is chat -- if it
:46:49. > :46:59.is the choice of the British people, it would be better to have two the
:46:59. > :47:01.
:47:01. > :47:05.doubt. That would leave David Cameron in the cold. This is
:47:06. > :47:08.negotiation, Strasbourg style. And we are joined from Brussels now by
:47:08. > :47:11.the Conservative MEP and chairman of the Conservatives and Reformist
:47:11. > :47:13.Group in the European Parliament, Martin Callanan, and here in London
:47:13. > :47:23.by the former permanent representative to the European
:47:23. > :47:25.
:47:25. > :47:29.Union, Stephen Wall. Good afternoon. Is there really an appetite to do
:47:29. > :47:35.serious negotiation with the British on repatriating powers
:47:35. > :47:40.among the other member states? think he heard the reaction from
:47:40. > :47:47.several leading MEPs. I was quite surprised by how positive some of
:47:47. > :47:51.them were that the prospect. But MEPs are the most federalist in the
:47:51. > :47:56.whole of the European Union. The heads of government are more
:47:56. > :48:01.pragmatic. When they think about the possibility of Britain leaving,
:48:01. > :48:05.not least our budget contribution, as an advantage, they will think
:48:05. > :48:10.about to renegotiation. Do you believe that there is any chance
:48:10. > :48:15.that even if they are pragmatic and prepared to go down this route some
:48:15. > :48:20.way, that they would give anything like enough that would satisfy the
:48:20. > :48:26.Euro-sceptics on the Tory backbenches? I think there is a
:48:26. > :48:31.good chance. We certainly have to try. Public disenchantment with the
:48:31. > :48:36.EU is massive in the UK. We have to have public support if we are to
:48:36. > :48:40.remain members. That is why it is important that we give a solid
:48:40. > :48:46.commitment to a referendum to give people a chance of accepting that
:48:46. > :48:51.the brand new settlement or leaving. There has not been a referendum
:48:51. > :48:55.since 1975 on Europe and there is public demand for one. It will help
:48:55. > :49:00.to concentrate the minds of those politicians who are doing the
:49:00. > :49:06.negotiations. Our partners will know that they have to satisfy the
:49:06. > :49:11.British people. He is saying that this is going with the grain of the
:49:11. > :49:19.British people. The British a Euro- sceptic, they want to repatriate
:49:19. > :49:22.powers, or what is wrong with that? Overall if you look at the opinion
:49:22. > :49:26.polls there are some people that one tout and some people who want
:49:26. > :49:36.to stay in, and some people if you want less Europe, but not
:49:36. > :49:36.
:49:36. > :49:41.necessarily know Europe. As to having a referendum, at David
:49:41. > :49:49.Cameron finds himself in the situation that Harold Wilson was in.
:49:49. > :49:59.-- no. Then our partners said that they would not change the treaty.
:49:59. > :50:02.You have to accept that. We want to know that if the negotiations
:50:02. > :50:08.succeed she will recommend to the people of Britain that we stay.
:50:08. > :50:12.Will that be true? Gave Mr Cameron succeeds in getting what he would
:50:12. > :50:18.regard as enough in terms of repatriation, he has made it clear
:50:18. > :50:23.that he will say, a vote, yes, to stay in on these brand new terms.
:50:23. > :50:29.think he probably will. It will depend on the results of the
:50:29. > :50:33.renegotiation. There is a positive attitude from both sides. There has
:50:33. > :50:39.to be a referendum because people will know that it will be a choice
:50:39. > :50:43.of in or out on the brand new terms. We have to try and reach a brand
:50:43. > :50:48.new deal because the current settlement is unsatisfactory. Even
:50:48. > :50:55.Ed Miliband said on the radio yesterday that he is in favour of
:50:55. > :51:00.renegotiation. We could have cross- party agreement on this.
:51:00. > :51:06.Unfortunately labour are not signed up to a referendum yet. Where does
:51:06. > :51:11.this leave UKIP? I think I agree with Stephen. David Cameron will
:51:11. > :51:17.have the gravest difficulty getting anything more than cosmetic changes.
:51:17. > :51:21.He will not get substantial changes. Martin sounds optimistic, he has a
:51:22. > :51:26.party line to follow, but my view is that they've David Cameron
:51:26. > :51:30.attempts to negotiate he will not come back with anything significant.
:51:30. > :51:35.But I look beyond that to the outcome because if we have a
:51:35. > :51:39.referendum would be renegotiated package is a trivial renegotiation,
:51:39. > :51:44.as it was in the case of Harold Wilson, and the British people feel
:51:44. > :51:54.they have been rebuffed by Europe, that will be an enormous boost both
:51:54. > :51:54.
:51:55. > :51:59.for my party but for the no side. We have the re-election of David
:51:59. > :52:06.Cameron or not between now and then so whether we get a referendum is
:52:06. > :52:11.an open question. What is Labour's position on this? Ed Miliband has
:52:11. > :52:16.said that we do not want a referendum at the minute. I think
:52:16. > :52:21.we need to inject realism into the discussion we're having. We do not
:52:21. > :52:25.know what will be repatriated. We do not know what any of this will
:52:25. > :52:31.be about. We do not know the timescale and the outcome is not
:52:31. > :52:34.known. It is fantasy to start speaking about a referendum when we
:52:34. > :52:41.do not have the faintest idea when it will be and what it will be
:52:41. > :52:46.about. That is not true. I Group of Tory backbenchers have given us a
:52:46. > :52:54.list of major powers that they would like to repatriate. They are
:52:54. > :53:01.pretty close to the David Cameron project. -- a group of Tory
:53:01. > :53:06.backbenchers. Yes. David Cameron himself has spoken about several
:53:06. > :53:12.areas. One EC Social Chapter, and the other is rules on benefits for
:53:12. > :53:16.migrants. His difficulty a few wants to reopen the social chapter
:53:16. > :53:21.it is that we need to have the treaty change to renew the opt-out
:53:21. > :53:25.from the social chapter that John Major negotiated. If he wants to
:53:25. > :53:30.change the directors, which is not impossible, the European Commission
:53:30. > :53:36.will have to be persuaded to bring forward a proposal. He would have
:53:36. > :53:39.to build alliances. The other thing that is hinted at in the
:53:40. > :53:42.Conservative document that is interesting is that if we're in
:53:43. > :53:49.this situation where there is a group of Eurozone countries getting
:53:49. > :53:55.closer together, and some, not just Britain, outside the Eurozone, how
:53:55. > :53:59.do we ensure that the institutions are not disadvantaged? On the
:53:59. > :54:03.single market day is a built-in majority among the Eurozone that
:54:03. > :54:13.could override this issue. That would be a difficult issue to
:54:13. > :54:14.
:54:14. > :54:20.negotiate, but it would be in the British interests. -- interest.
:54:20. > :54:25.will give you the final word. How worried are you about UKIP and the
:54:25. > :54:32.threat to the Conservatives winning an overall majority in 2013?
:54:32. > :54:36.they are going to take thought away from us, that is a threat. But I
:54:36. > :54:42.think Roger Rees being churlish. He has been campaigning genuinely for
:54:42. > :54:47.a referendum for many years. Here is David Cameron offering him that
:54:47. > :54:52.referendum. I think the least he could do is welcome it. This gives
:54:52. > :54:56.us a chance to say to be disenchanted Conservative voters,
:54:56. > :55:02.series the referendum that you want. It is only a Conservative
:55:02. > :55:08.government that will deliver it. will give him a chance to welcome
:55:08. > :55:15.it when we finally hear the speech. Arguing Brussels or Strasbourg, I
:55:15. > :55:20.cannot remember? I am in Brussels. I was in Amsterdam, but you
:55:20. > :55:26.cancelled my trip from there! is the Prime Minister that
:55:26. > :55:30.cancelled it. But I am sorry about that. We cannot waste the licence
:55:30. > :55:35.fee. We all know that Brussels employs
:55:35. > :55:39.its fair share of bureaucrats, translators and politicians. But
:55:39. > :55:42.they are not alone. They are joined by hordes of lobbyists. Why are
:55:42. > :55:51.they there and who are they trying to influence? Here is Adam Fleming
:55:51. > :55:58.with the latest letter in his A-Z of Europe. L for lobbying.
:55:58. > :56:03.Welcome to Luxembourg. This is Ground Zero for schmoozing. As the
:56:03. > :56:13.powers of the EU have grown, so have the number of lobbyists. It is
:56:13. > :56:18.
:56:18. > :56:25.estimated there are between 15,030 1,000 of them. -- between 15,000
:56:25. > :56:31.and 30,000. There are charity groups and Industry organising
:56:31. > :56:35.meetings for the powerful. Outside the European Parliament, there is
:56:35. > :56:40.even a tree dedicated to lobbyists. And there are plenty of
:56:40. > :56:45.opportunities for them. You can try to coax the commission whose job it
:56:45. > :56:51.is to come up with brand-new laws that might affect your industry. Or
:56:51. > :56:57.why not try cajoling countries to nudge the EU in your direction? Or
:56:57. > :57:02.you can persuade Parliament to alter legislation in your favour.
:57:02. > :57:06.There have been some scandals. Last year the Health Commissioner
:57:06. > :57:11.resigned after being linked to a cash for legislation case link to
:57:11. > :57:15.tobacco. He has always denied doing anything wrong. They have
:57:15. > :57:22.introduced a code of conduct for lobbyists in an effort to make
:57:22. > :57:27.things more transparent. But it is voluntary. Campaigners complain
:57:27. > :57:31.about the revolving door. There is a massive number of people who
:57:31. > :57:37.leave the European institutions and walk straight into jobs where they
:57:37. > :57:42.peddle their influence. One person who did that is a former member of
:57:42. > :57:46.the European Parliament called Nick Clegg. But everyone is agreed that
:57:46. > :57:52.the year is far less money sloshing around the system here than in
:57:52. > :57:57.Washington DC. -- but everyone in Brussels is agreed that there is
:57:57. > :58:03.far less money. Coincidentally, the number of lobbyists there is
:58:03. > :58:07.exactly the same. If Brussels was subjected to the
:58:07. > :58:11.same amount of scrutiny as Westminster, lobbying would be the
:58:11. > :58:16.next big scandal? At am not sure about that but the rules do need
:58:16. > :58:22.tightening up. We are making progress but the register should be
:58:22. > :58:29.mandatory rather than voluntary. Your report was quite the rocketry,
:58:29. > :58:36.saying that lobbyists have a lot of money. -- do rocketry. It is not
:58:36. > :58:43.like that. I'm knead the Music Industry in my office and I speak
:58:43. > :58:48.to them about the issues. You think everything is fine. People speak
:58:48. > :58:57.about industry lobbyists. There are lots of non-governmental lobbyists