:00:40. > :00:43.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:43. > :00:50.Spare a thought for poor, poor George Galloway, who was dished
:00:50. > :00:53.this, at PMQs. Wherever there is a brutal Arab
:00:53. > :00:56.dictator in the world, he'll have the support of the honourable
:00:56. > :00:58.gentleman. We'll be talking to the man himself
:00:58. > :01:06.about parliamentary etiquette, and supporting dictators.
:01:07. > :01:09.Activism, or slacktivism? We'll be looking at the online organisation
:01:09. > :01:13.that rallies mass outrage, but nobody's ever heard of it.
:01:13. > :01:16.It's more like Downton Abbey than it is Parliament at the moment. But
:01:16. > :01:22.is it really? Shocking new research reveals many
:01:22. > :01:25.Tory MP are not, I repeat, not born with a silver spoon in their mouth.
:01:25. > :01:35.And, is the stalking horse gathering momentum? We'll be taking
:01:35. > :01:38.a look back at the week, in 60 All that in the next hour. And,
:01:38. > :01:42.with us for the whole programme today, is the broadcaster Anne
:01:42. > :01:45.Diamond. She rose to fame as part of a TV double act that's been
:01:45. > :01:49.bettered only by myself and Jo Coburn! And now presents her own
:01:49. > :01:53.radio phone-in show. And David Wooding, he's never been part of a
:01:53. > :01:58.double act, as far as we know, but he is associate political editor at
:01:58. > :02:01.the Sun. Welcome to you both. First, today: A senior counter-
:02:01. > :02:04.terrorism officer has been sentenced to 15 months in prison
:02:04. > :02:06.for offering to sell information to the News of the World about the
:02:07. > :02:10.phone-hacking inquiry. Detective Chief Inspector April Casburn was
:02:10. > :02:14.convicted of misconduct in public office. The judge at the Old Bailey
:02:14. > :02:24.told her it was "a corrupt attempt to make money out of sensitive and
:02:24. > :02:26.
:02:26. > :02:31.potentially very damaging The judge said if she hadn't been
:02:31. > :02:37.in the process of adopting a baby, she would have got three years, and
:02:37. > :02:42.not 15 months. Although not directly related to hacking, this
:02:43. > :02:48.is one of the first sentences now linked to the behaviour and conduct
:02:48. > :02:53.of the media and the police. That leaves you asking more questions.
:02:53. > :02:58.Did she actually sell information, or did she offered to sell
:02:59. > :03:05.information? What was it about, what did it result in? We want to
:03:05. > :03:11.know more. We are living in an age where we are seeing the results of
:03:11. > :03:15.the post Leveson Inquiry. But we still need to know more. You worry
:03:15. > :03:19.that we are actually flagellating our souls too much, maybe people
:03:20. > :03:27.will be criticised for trivial things and you worry Baby we are
:03:27. > :03:31.missing the bigger boat. The bigger boat is still coming down the river.
:03:31. > :03:36.It is an indication, in matters of the conduct of the press and
:03:36. > :03:41.relationship between press and police, the courts are up for jail
:03:41. > :03:46.sentences. The areas they will at the top in
:03:46. > :03:52.the establishment to lock people up. In this case, we have a police
:03:52. > :03:57.officer who was concerned, in her view, the force was spending too
:03:57. > :04:01.much time investigating what she thought was relatively, while a
:04:01. > :04:08.criminal offence, a more trivial offence, more serious things were
:04:08. > :04:14.being left undone. She rang out of concern, so she said, in court.
:04:14. > :04:18.jury didn't believe her. I think there is a well among people...
:04:18. > :04:23.Quite right, the jury did not like the idea a police officer who is
:04:23. > :04:28.upset about something immediately thinks of ringing the News of the
:04:28. > :04:33.World. We can't talk about the substance but I suspect it will
:04:33. > :04:38.send a shiver down the spine of those other journalists and police
:04:38. > :04:45.officers now being charged on related, similar type offences.
:04:45. > :04:49.Clearly, the public is in the mind for jail sentences.
:04:49. > :04:54.The other thing is people who called the police, called the press
:04:55. > :05:00.as away of getting stories to the open, whistleblowers, maybe more
:05:00. > :05:03.fearful. It's time for our daily quiz. The
:05:03. > :05:06.question for today is: Sally Bercow, she's the tweeting wife of Speaker,
:05:06. > :05:09.John Bercow, told her Twitter followers yesterday that she'd had
:05:10. > :05:15.her first tattoo. So what do we think it was? Was it:
:05:15. > :05:25.a) A portcullis? B) John Bercow's coat of arms?
:05:25. > :05:29.
:05:29. > :05:33.C) The names of her children? D) An anchor?
:05:33. > :05:39.One of those is correct? At the end of the show, Anne and David will
:05:39. > :05:49.give us the correct answer. Now, regular viewers of the Daily
:05:49. > :05:55.Politics may have watched this on Wednesday.
:05:55. > :06:04.George Galloway. Following yesterday's announcement,
:06:04. > :06:08.will the Prime Minister described the key differences between the
:06:08. > :06:14.hand chopping, throat cutting a jihadists, fighting the
:06:14. > :06:20.dictatorship in Mali, that we are now to help to kill? And the
:06:20. > :06:26.equally bloodthirsty jihadists that we are giving money, material,
:06:26. > :06:32.political and diplomatic support to, in Syria? Has the promise de Red Ed
:06:32. > :06:38.Frankenstein, and did you read it to the end? -- has the Prime
:06:38. > :06:41.Minister. There is one thing certain.
:06:41. > :06:43.Wherever there is a brutal Arab dictator in the world, he'll have
:06:43. > :06:46.the support of the honourable gentleman.
:06:46. > :06:56.David Cameron's response there caused a little bit of an upset.
:06:56. > :07:06.Some viewers thought it was a tad rude. The Respect MP George
:07:06. > :07:07.
:07:07. > :07:14.Galloway, who asked the question, is here.
:07:14. > :07:18.When you asked that question, did you not think that you were opening
:07:18. > :07:23.yourself to the response but you got?
:07:23. > :07:28.If not from that particular pot, when he flew off to pose for
:07:28. > :07:32.pictures with the dictator of Algeria, and selling weapons to
:07:32. > :07:39.every brutal Arab dictator that will pay, no.
:07:39. > :07:45.In any case, vulgar abuse does not an answer make. What your viewers
:07:45. > :07:48.have been saying to his, on a par with what is being said to me,
:07:48. > :07:53.actually that is an interesting question, I wonder what the answer
:07:53. > :07:57.is, David Cameron did not give it. All Western governments are
:07:57. > :08:02.vulnerable to having supported Arab dictators but people can say, you
:08:02. > :08:09.have your dictators and he has his dictators.
:08:09. > :08:13.The British state is in the front of marketing weapons, and giving
:08:13. > :08:19.diplomatic and put a little -- political support to a brutal Arab
:08:19. > :08:23.dictators and jihadists in Syria. I was really asking, is it a case of
:08:23. > :08:31.good Al-Qaeda in Syria and bad Al- Qaeda in Mali? We have been down
:08:31. > :08:36.this road before. You and I equally on this platform are awed enough to
:08:36. > :08:45.remember when we used to finance other jihadists who later became
:08:45. > :08:52.Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan in the 80s. Whether the British state should be
:08:52. > :08:59.doing this. BG had this in northern Mali, and fighting the government
:08:59. > :09:03.in its area. It seems pretty care the jihadists had taken control of
:09:03. > :09:12.the movement in northern Mali, which had originally been for
:09:12. > :09:17.autonomy. They were heading south, calling the shots by then. There is
:09:17. > :09:20.no doubt that the jihadists are part of the uprising in that Syria
:09:20. > :09:26.but they are not it by any means in control.
:09:26. > :09:34.The New York Times thinks they are, the State Department talked about
:09:34. > :09:39.the flicker of Al-Qaeda which has become a flame. But they have been
:09:39. > :09:44.attacked by the people at the top of the insurgency. Those chaps you
:09:44. > :09:52.seek on the news every night, especially on Sky News, lining up
:09:52. > :09:57.prisoners to cut their heads off, video -- videoing themselves. They
:09:57. > :10:02.sound dangerous to me. This is a Frankenstein monster created in
:10:02. > :10:08.Afghanistan in the 1980s. If you have read Frankenstein's monster by
:10:08. > :10:12.Mary Shelley, you'll note it is called a monster because you can't
:10:12. > :10:16.control it once you have built it. And the Mostar isn't called
:10:16. > :10:22.Frankenstein either. Does this then lead you to support Bashar al-
:10:22. > :10:28.Assad? I do not support Bashar al- Assad or the jihadists.
:10:28. > :10:31.research team has come up with plenty of quotes you being pretty
:10:31. > :10:38.friendly to Bashar al-Assad, and pretty friendly to the dictatorship
:10:38. > :10:43.of Syria. That's from 2005, I think. At the time he was riding around in
:10:43. > :10:53.a carriage with the Queen up the mile and sleeping in her spare room.
:10:53. > :11:01.
:11:01. > :11:08.No, I support echo fin and Nana. -- support Kofi Annan. And a
:11:08. > :11:12.transition to democracy. Syria, it is a complicated country with lots
:11:12. > :11:22.of religious and ethnic minorities and strategically in an explosive
:11:22. > :11:24.
:11:24. > :11:30.place. What do you make them of it -- of Iran? We are sending the
:11:30. > :11:35.enemies of Bashar al-Assad support. Britain and its American master. We
:11:35. > :11:40.are giving their money. Then we are giving them arms. They can do with
:11:40. > :11:44.the money what they like. Iranians are sending serious
:11:44. > :11:48.weapons and even Revolutionary Guards have been sent there.
:11:48. > :11:53.Serious weapons will not do basher macro any good. They are fighting
:11:53. > :11:57.in the streets hand-to-hand with BT had this. I understand, they are
:11:57. > :12:05.not arguing with you that there aren't jihad this involved, but you
:12:05. > :12:10.have to admit they are not the lead this -- the leaders in this. I do
:12:10. > :12:17.not accept that at all. The Syrian people had plenty to revolt about,
:12:17. > :12:21.had plenty to rise up about. They have the same right to do so as any
:12:21. > :12:26.people in the world. But no one who seriously studies this is in any
:12:26. > :12:29.doubt the fighting is being done by foreign jihadists and in the main
:12:29. > :12:35.and they will inherit the power. The people who do the fighting
:12:35. > :12:39.other people who come to power. It is wise you not to dispute that
:12:39. > :12:42.central point, because the time will come, if they win, when we
:12:42. > :12:50.will be sitting here talking about their latest atrocity, perhaps
:12:50. > :12:58.across the border in the UK, and US's favourite country, Israel.
:12:58. > :13:04.one your by-election, so -- calling it the Bradford spring. Not the
:13:04. > :13:08.Arab Spring? I am absolutely behind the Arab Spring. I have been
:13:08. > :13:13.calling for a revolution in the Arab world, and this is a messy
:13:13. > :13:18.business, you can't make omelettes without breaking eggs. How would
:13:18. > :13:25.you describe its progress so far in Egypt and Libya? In Egypt, it is
:13:25. > :13:31.not go well, in Tunisia it is better. In Syria, it is a disaster.
:13:31. > :13:36.A classic case. We hated Colonel Gaddafi, then we hated him. We
:13:36. > :13:39.delivered the jihadists to Colonel Gaddafi to be tortured. Then we
:13:40. > :13:44.backed them to overthrow Colonel Gaddafi. Now they have killed the
:13:44. > :13:47.American ambassador in Benghazi and we have a back we did all our
:13:47. > :13:52.people from there. Will you be happy when Bashar al-Assad goes?
:13:52. > :13:59.Yes, the people of Syria need to choose a ruler who was not part of
:13:59. > :14:05.the same family as the dynasty they have had for 40 years there. We
:14:05. > :14:10.need democracy in Syria, in Saudi Arabia, in all Arab countries. You
:14:10. > :14:16.do not get democracy by bombing countries from a far, neither do
:14:16. > :14:24.you get it by interposing jihadists of the Al-Qaeda stripe. Final
:14:24. > :14:31.question. Were the French right to intervene in Marley? No, they are
:14:31. > :14:41.the last people. Marley used to be called French Sudan. They eluted
:14:41. > :14:47.
:14:47. > :14:57.Marley, for as much as they could then carry -- looted Mali. 90% of
:14:57. > :15:01.
:15:01. > :15:05.Malians are Muslim. Then if the French hadn't intervened, it was
:15:06. > :15:13.quite clear they were going to take the whole of the country.
:15:13. > :15:21.throat-cutting, hand chopping jihad is you were complaining about. --
:15:21. > :15:28.jihadists. It is more complicated than that. There are legitimate
:15:28. > :15:34.demands. But, the point is, the government of the country is a
:15:34. > :15:37.military dictator, we are backing that. People are against it. We'll
:15:37. > :15:47.see what happens. When terrible things start to happen, do not
:15:47. > :15:52.
:15:52. > :15:56.That is the problem, it goes back into history, as to where you think
:15:56. > :16:02.allegiances should be? What would be the right thing for government
:16:02. > :16:08.to do? I do not think Mali should be occupying our government at the
:16:08. > :16:14.moment. It has to! Why? It is a faraway country in Africa. It
:16:14. > :16:18.contains no threat to us. We have no historical relationships with it,
:16:18. > :16:24.and we are broke! We can't keep pensioners warm in the winter time
:16:24. > :16:30.but we are ready to help France set fire to Mali. It does not compute.
:16:30. > :16:34.I would not give my son's life in Mali and I know you would not be
:16:34. > :16:41.there but we are expecting other people to send their children there
:16:41. > :16:46.and fight. These are complex issues. We view it with hindsight. We look
:16:46. > :16:52.at Afghanistan now and say, if only we had not gone in. But what would
:16:52. > :16:56.have happened if we hadn't gone in? Do we sit and do nothing? People of
:16:56. > :17:01.suffering in Syria. I think we probably would go in if we thought
:17:01. > :17:06.it was safe and if we had the money and the stomach for it, but we
:17:06. > :17:11.don't after Iraq. Bad things are happening all over the world. We
:17:11. > :17:15.are a small country off the north coast of Europe that is virtually
:17:15. > :17:20.bankrupt. It would be better if the British Government concentrated on
:17:20. > :17:25.six in our own problems at home. George, stick with us. Thank you.
:17:25. > :17:32.This week it was bees in Europe. The week before it was oil in the
:17:32. > :17:35.Amazon, and the week before that it was women's rights in India. They
:17:35. > :17:41.are all campaigns that have been launched on the internet by the
:17:41. > :17:44.group Avaaz. It means "voice". The biggest political organisation you
:17:45. > :17:48.have never heard of. They have got 17 million members worldwide who
:17:48. > :17:50.drive MPs mad by emailing them hundreds of times a day. But do you
:17:50. > :17:55.know your Avaaz from your elbow? Our Adam does.
:17:55. > :18:00.In the last year, at any event related to the Leveson Inquiry, you
:18:00. > :18:07.found these guys. They belong to one organisation called Avaaz.
:18:07. > :18:11.What? It means "voice" in Farsi and it is like Amazon for protesters.
:18:11. > :18:16.You sign up and join other uses in whichever of their campaigns that
:18:16. > :18:21.you fancy, and it has more than 70 million members worldwide, who
:18:21. > :18:28.provide all the funding from small donations. They UK office is above
:18:28. > :18:34.this burger bar in the West End. When we dropped in, they were in
:18:34. > :18:37.the middle of a Skype corner with gay rights activists in Uganda.
:18:37. > :18:43.Whether it is the future of media in the UK, whether it is bankers
:18:43. > :18:47.and how they get away Scot free with so many misdemeanours or
:18:47. > :18:52.whichever issue that members care about, like climate change, we can
:18:52. > :18:56.jump quickly on to it. We can send messages out on these diverse
:18:56. > :19:02.topics and find clever strategies to link the citizens on the ground
:19:02. > :19:11.with the powers that be. Those techniques includes petitions, or
:19:11. > :19:17.rallies, a newspaper adverts and became its. -- peak it's. A you can
:19:17. > :19:24.see the detail here, these are mainly people speaking French...
:19:24. > :19:29.The data about the uses drives what they do. A campaign idea could come
:19:29. > :19:33.from a member in the UK, Venezuela, anywhere. We look at it and see if
:19:33. > :19:37.we could make a difference and if it lines up with what members have
:19:37. > :19:41.told us from their on-line polling that they are keen on, we would
:19:41. > :19:48.send out a test message to 10,000 people and depending on the results
:19:48. > :19:55.of that, we will stop in our tracks or go much fervour. Critics of what
:19:55. > :20:03.they do say that clicking on the internet is not really politics. A
:20:03. > :20:10.charge I put you Avaaz's found dead in New York. -- I put to Avaaz's
:20:10. > :20:14.found in New York. Half of our community have just joined us in
:20:14. > :20:19.the last year it so over time, people deepen their engagement. You
:20:19. > :20:23.first sign up to it, it is a new community, you gradually build up
:20:23. > :20:27.trust and engagement and gradually get more deeply involved. That is
:20:27. > :20:33.what we have seen consistently. This is one of the things they are
:20:33. > :20:39.most proud of. Many of the pictures that have emerged from Syria were
:20:39. > :20:43.filmed on cambers provided by Avaaz. -- filmed on cameras.
:20:43. > :20:46.And George Galloway is still with us. We are also joined by David
:20:46. > :20:51.Babbs from another online organisation 38 Degrees. You
:20:51. > :20:56.concentrate more on UK issues rather than global ones. Yes.
:20:57. > :21:01.you having any influence? Yes. 38 Degrees have 1.3 million members
:21:01. > :21:05.across the UK. Yesterday you reported on the BBC that the
:21:05. > :21:09.government had finally confirmed it was cancelling plans to sell off
:21:09. > :21:17.England's woodlands. That was a campaign that 30 degrees members
:21:17. > :21:20.started online. -- 38 Degrees. Half a million of a sign that position.
:21:21. > :21:26.You saw the result yesterday. Government policy completely
:21:26. > :21:29.changed, thanks to the work of 38 Degrees members. You claim to have
:21:29. > :21:35.more members than every major political party in this country
:21:35. > :21:40.combined? That is right, yes. Membership for a 38 Degrees member
:21:40. > :21:45.is different to a membership of a political party. You do not have to
:21:45. > :21:49.get involved in it every campaign. It is much more opt in. You have a
:21:49. > :21:53.choice as to which campaign you take part in but most of our
:21:53. > :21:57.members are very active, both at home to his neck in their office,
:21:58. > :22:04.but more and more meeting in their local communities -- both at home
:22:04. > :22:08.or in the office. They do meet? This week I was meeting members in
:22:08. > :22:11.Lewisham organising a campaign to save their local hospital, and we
:22:11. > :22:15.were part of the demonstration that took place on Saturday. Some
:22:15. > :22:19.members were outside their council buildings in Cumbria yesterday
:22:19. > :22:24.celebrating the decision they had been calling for to cancel plans to
:22:24. > :22:29.build a nuclear dump in the Lake District. He starts on internet but
:22:29. > :22:33.that is not where it ends. Yes, it gets a manifestation on the streets.
:22:33. > :22:37.What do you say to critics that referred to you, it makes people
:22:37. > :22:45.feel good for the moment as they click but it is not real
:22:45. > :22:48.engagement? It is the junk food of democracy, I am quoting somebody.
:22:48. > :22:53.You will always get some elitists in the political establishment who
:22:53. > :22:57.would rather that ordinary people left them alone to get on with a
:22:57. > :23:01.complicated business of government but what 38 Degrees members believe,
:23:01. > :23:05.is that democracy is better if more people getting involved and getting
:23:05. > :23:09.involved has to start somewhere. The first thing to do for a lot of
:23:09. > :23:14.people is not to decide to run parliament and joined a political
:23:14. > :23:19.party, it will be to sign a petition. And it could give them an
:23:19. > :23:25.appetite? Yes, I was chatting with a member, Ken in the West Midlands,
:23:25. > :23:29.who is organising a saving of the NHS campaigns in the West Midlands.
:23:29. > :23:33.He first signed the forest perdition. He is now very active in
:23:33. > :23:39.the community and is standing up for local health services but it
:23:39. > :23:45.started with an online petition. Degrees is the critical angle at
:23:45. > :23:49.which another large can start. did not know that! There we are. We
:23:49. > :23:55.need to know we do not undervalue the power of the mass clicking on
:23:55. > :23:58.this. My sons get their news information online and through
:23:58. > :24:03.Facebook and all of the ways that I know you reach out to people and
:24:03. > :24:07.one day, we will vote online and when people like 38 Degrees and
:24:07. > :24:14.other organisations can influence people on screen, we will all be
:24:14. > :24:22.multi-screen in a few years, you can move your mouse and click for a
:24:22. > :24:25.particular vote, I think we really have to not call them slack
:24:25. > :24:30.activists but understand that people sitting in front of a screen
:24:30. > :24:35.have the same power as we used to have in a queue. There is a danger
:24:35. > :24:39.that this amount of activity and interest and participation, that it
:24:39. > :24:43.leads the dead tree press behind. That is why we have to change and
:24:43. > :24:51.move with the times. We try to embrace the online world. In the
:24:51. > :24:58.old days, on the local paper, you would go down to the local council
:24:58. > :25:02.with a sackful of petitions. It is different now. Now, if I write
:25:02. > :25:08.something I don't like, I hear about it on Twitter! People can
:25:08. > :25:14.come and interact with you. It has brought the country closer together.
:25:14. > :25:20.It is amazing. These are very impressive numbers, one win 3
:25:20. > :25:30.million, 17 million for Avaaz. -- 1.3 million. The eye had never
:25:30. > :25:36.heard of it. -- I had never. I thought it was something to do with
:25:36. > :25:42.Keith Vaz! I have over $100,000 on Twitter and Facebook. This is the
:25:42. > :25:47.future. There is the danger it is a mile wide and an inch deep. This is
:25:47. > :25:52.the danger of manipulation. I do not know who is behind Avaaz. Is
:25:52. > :26:00.there an agenda? The big campaign about the child soldiers fellow in
:26:00. > :26:04.Uganda turned out to be some hopes, some subterfuge. It can happen on
:26:04. > :26:09.the internet but of course it can happen also in the mass media. But
:26:09. > :26:19.I would not follow the Times, David, because the Times is going down
:26:19. > :26:21.
:26:21. > :26:25.even faster than that Sun! The one that Andrew used to, be such a
:26:25. > :26:30.distinguished editor of us. The Dead Tree Press, as you put it, is
:26:30. > :26:36.finished. Ten years from now, all TV, everything, it will be on the
:26:36. > :26:45.internet. Is there not another danger, this is not a pretty word,
:26:45. > :26:50.but it only encourages opposition- itis. There will always be some
:26:50. > :26:54.group of people against it, even if what they are doing is right. Let's
:26:54. > :26:58.take a case of a local hospital. Obviously everybody hate their
:26:58. > :27:01.hospitals to be closed but not every time a local hospital is
:27:01. > :27:06.closed is it necessarily a bad thing for the overall health of the
:27:06. > :27:11.nation. But groups like yours are always against something rather
:27:11. > :27:17.than for something. That is not true. 38 Degrees members are up for
:27:17. > :27:20.getting involved in solutions. Last year, hundreds of thousands of
:27:20. > :27:24.members got in a campaign which we called the Big Switch, about
:27:24. > :27:29.challenging the power of the gas and electricity companies to get a
:27:29. > :27:35.better deal, so they signed up to negotiate with the companies and
:27:35. > :27:39.drive a hard bargain with them. Using our collective consumer power.
:27:39. > :27:44.Through that, thousands and thousands of members switched
:27:44. > :27:49.energy power and collectively saved �23 million. It really worked.
:27:49. > :27:55.are using the collective power art -- against the oligarchy of energy
:27:55. > :28:00.companies. It is only by consumers getting together that you have the
:28:00. > :28:04.counterweight of power. Precisely. One of the exciting things about be
:28:04. > :28:10.internet visitor allows ordinary people to pour resources and level
:28:10. > :28:14.playing fields, to answer back to journalists. What is next?
:28:14. > :28:20.Degrees members decide together what is next so it is hard for me
:28:20. > :28:24.to say. Is at the wisdom of crowds? We regularly ask members on what
:28:24. > :28:29.issues they want to campaign on. A very big priority is protecting the
:28:29. > :28:33.NHS. The online community may already be a huge segment of the
:28:33. > :28:39.population that is already disaffected with broadcasters,
:28:39. > :28:44.newspapers... With the establishment way of expressing
:28:44. > :28:51.ourselves. Maybe that community has not been heard for years. Looking
:28:51. > :28:56.back, have you, Avaaz, similar groups, do you think, that is one
:28:56. > :29:02.we should not have got involved in, that was a mistake? I don't think
:29:02. > :29:04.so actually. The it is going to happen. One of the advantages of
:29:04. > :29:08.having over 1 million people involved in the decision-making
:29:08. > :29:13.process for what we do is that every decision we take is subject
:29:13. > :29:17.to a lot of scrutiny. I am not saying that is a reason for not
:29:17. > :29:20.doing things. It is in the nature of things that one day you were
:29:20. > :29:29.rushed into a campaign and it will turn out to be not quite what you
:29:29. > :29:35.thought it was. Hitler's diary. was going to ask you, have you done
:29:35. > :29:39.one that you regret!? I was certainly surprised when our
:29:39. > :29:45.members Prix amortised campaign on England's and woodlands. It was not
:29:45. > :29:49.an issue that I would have prioritised living in London --
:29:49. > :29:52.prioritise the campaign on England's woodlands. But the more
:29:53. > :29:57.people you off to campaign, at the higher the quality of decisions you
:29:58. > :30:03.will get. There was an element of this in the Arab Spring,
:30:03. > :30:08.particularly in Cairo when people use their mobile phones. The Hosni
:30:08. > :30:13.Mubarak regime tried to stop broadcasting from cellphones.
:30:13. > :30:19.this genie is out of the bottle. Mr Murdoch, Hosni Mubarak, and nobody
:30:19. > :30:23.can control it. It has to be more democratic than the way the media
:30:23. > :30:33.was hitherto controlled. The day will come and not far off when
:30:33. > :30:40.
:30:40. > :30:49.people will vote on elections If I can now access my bank account
:30:49. > :30:55.online, then surely they can have a system for voting. You do need to
:30:55. > :31:04.be anonymous when you vote, which can make it difficult. You do get a
:31:04. > :31:08.Here's your Friday trivia question. What book is now so long that it
:31:08. > :31:11.would take the world's fastest speaker more than a week to get
:31:11. > :31:18.through it? No, it's not War and Peace, the collected works of
:31:18. > :31:25.Gordon Brown, or even Fifty Shades of Grey. It's the UK guide to tax
:31:25. > :31:30.regulations. Surprised? Probably not particularly, if you've spent
:31:30. > :31:37.the last week sorting out your tax return. The Tolley's Tax Guide was
:31:37. > :31:41.quite a read in 2001, at 5,952 pages. By 2007, towards the end of
:31:41. > :31:45.the Labour years, it was a shelf- creaking 9,866 pages. Now the book
:31:45. > :31:55.is, wait for it, 17,795 pages. Not bad, when you consider that this
:31:55. > :32:03.
:32:04. > :32:07.coalition government promised to simplify tax when it took office.
:32:07. > :32:14.Joining me from our Berkshire studios is the Conservative MP John
:32:14. > :32:20.Redwood. I remember having a go at Gordon
:32:20. > :32:26.Brown for over 10 years doubling the size of Tolley's. You're not
:32:26. > :32:31.have managed to add thousands of more pages in only two years.
:32:31. > :32:38.Depressing, isn't it? They needed to increase taxes to pay for the
:32:38. > :32:42.spending Labour had already committed, and then the coalition
:32:42. > :32:46.decided they wanted to increase spending by 1,500 pounds a year for
:32:46. > :32:51.every person in the country by the end of their period in government,
:32:51. > :32:56.and needed to raise taxes for that as well. They have been drafted in
:32:56. > :33:00.to the same old way as Labour was, thinking, there is a pot of money
:33:00. > :33:05.out there if only they could deal with the loopholes. I don't
:33:05. > :33:10.understand how wanting more tax if leads to adding another 6,000 pages
:33:10. > :33:20.to the Tax Guide. Surely putting up the tax rate doesn't change the
:33:20. > :33:24.
:33:24. > :33:29.guide itself. Child benefit, other things, the government has
:33:29. > :33:33.enormously complicated matters. think they would do better to have
:33:33. > :33:38.lower tax rates and fewer tax breaks. Because they have put the
:33:38. > :33:43.tax rates up, people are not willing to pay them. And people are
:33:43. > :33:47.able to find legal ways about them. They have been decided this is
:33:47. > :33:51.dreadful and have come up with extra anti-avoidance devices which
:33:51. > :33:55.are themselves very complicated and create more jobs for tax
:33:55. > :34:00.accountants and lawyers. The result is they are collecting less tax.
:34:00. > :34:04.The higher rates of tax on income tax and capital gains and stamp
:34:04. > :34:12.duty has been counter-productive, they are getting less revenue than
:34:12. > :34:16.planned. Correct me if I am wrong, didn't this government create the
:34:16. > :34:23.Office for tax simplification? did. I believe it is still working
:34:24. > :34:29.away. Kenya. Us to any achievement? It is not designed to do what we
:34:29. > :34:34.have been talking about, to have lower rates, fewer breaks. It is
:34:34. > :34:44.designed to take the massively complicated finance at and other
:34:44. > :34:46.
:34:46. > :34:52.legislation, and see if you can rewrite them in a simpler way --
:34:52. > :34:59.Finance Act. What we actually need is policy changes, George Galloway
:34:59. > :35:06.in opposition suggested having a flat tax with no exceptions. If you
:35:06. > :35:11.earn more, you pay more. If you have 18,000 pages in Tolley's, and
:35:11. > :35:20.understand ours is the biggest in the world, more than the Americans
:35:20. > :35:24.and Germans. You have immediately created an opportunity for smart
:35:24. > :35:29.accountants, and for the well be people who can afford these smart
:35:29. > :35:33.accountants. I honestly, I sincerely believe that this
:35:33. > :35:38.government thought it could simplify things. The more you
:35:38. > :35:41.simplify, unless human beings were all the same and equal, there is no
:35:41. > :35:47.way of simplifying the system because it will always create
:35:47. > :35:57.injustice for somebody. One of these simplifications that George
:35:57. > :36:02.
:36:02. > :36:10.Osborne tried was the eve pasty tax, and it blew up in his face. It was
:36:10. > :36:20.a complicated issue, takeaways were charged at if they were hot.
:36:20. > :36:21.
:36:21. > :36:26.people, I would suggest, are the average tax payers who do their
:36:26. > :36:34.PAYE, they have little latitude, tax is taken from their salary.
:36:34. > :36:40.They don't have fancied deductions, ways of getting around it. The --
:36:40. > :36:46.fancy. The government is encouraging people to pay less tax
:36:46. > :36:52.as well as moralising when they succeed in paying less. A pension
:36:52. > :36:58.fund is a tax deferral which is perfectly legal. You will find that
:36:58. > :37:02.the idea of tax breaks is embedded in our psychology and tax code. Or
:37:02. > :37:07.some affect a large number of people who take advantage of them.
:37:07. > :37:11.The government has to go for those much lower rates, and make it
:37:11. > :37:20.easier for everybody. But, this government, with the Conservative
:37:20. > :37:26.Chancellor, last year it introduced the biggest finance bill in British
:37:26. > :37:30.history. And it doesn't seem to have a tax reforming bone in its
:37:30. > :37:35.body. You must be very disappointed? I think he has got
:37:35. > :37:40.stuck. His forecast assumed this big increase in current spending,
:37:40. > :37:44.this very large increase in the amount of tax needed to pay for
:37:44. > :37:50.extra spending and the inherited Sirpa spending. He has discovered
:37:50. > :37:55.he is not raising the revenue. A tax reforming Chancellor as when he
:37:55. > :38:00.began, has been blown off course by the magnitude of the task of paying
:38:00. > :38:04.for all the spending. So, he is back in the trenches, trying to
:38:04. > :38:08.take away some of the brakes people are using to successfully, and put
:38:08. > :38:11.in the rates up and finding it is counter-productive.
:38:11. > :38:14.Ed Milliband's fed up with the middle classes, and says he wants
:38:14. > :38:20.more working class MPs. Well, perhaps he should look to the
:38:20. > :38:22.Tories. Not only have they just chosen a former postman as a
:38:22. > :38:32.candidate but, according to online magazine Political Quarterly,
:38:32. > :38:37.
:38:37. > :38:39.they're becoming as common as muck. Or are they? Here's Giles.
:38:39. > :38:42.There is an image not altogether unfounded, but not without
:38:42. > :38:46.political mischief that a Conservative MP is more usually a
:38:46. > :38:54.man, wealthy, privately educated, Oxbridge. Nice, big house, likes
:38:54. > :39:01.the bubbly. In a word, posh. Their opponents have lampooned it, and
:39:01. > :39:05.used it, even impersonated it ever since an Etonian became PM. We have
:39:05. > :39:09.had enough of the common herd trying to govern themselves and
:39:09. > :39:15.failing dismally, it is about time people are probably bread and
:39:15. > :39:20.dedicated to rule this country, got back in power, today is the day.
:39:20. > :39:25.Day did current used to prance around the dreamy spires of Oxford
:39:25. > :39:30.in a �1,000 a jacket. And you're telling me they are not elitist?
:39:30. > :39:38.Get away. It is irritating but it is good, poor old fashioned, Class
:39:38. > :39:45.War. The Labour Party seems to have rediscovered its old habits again.
:39:45. > :39:49.Not long ago, I did and interview with Nadine Dorries and the subject
:39:49. > :39:58.was whether Posh had become an issue which was toxic in politics.
:39:58. > :40:03.We got more than we bargained for. Are they still two posh boys who
:40:03. > :40:06.don't know the price of milk? only are David Cameron and George
:40:06. > :40:11.Osborne these boys who don't know the price of milk, they are
:40:11. > :40:16.arrogant posh boys, who show no remorse or contrition or passion to
:40:16. > :40:19.want to understand the lives of others, that is their real crime.
:40:19. > :40:22.Now, taking those words as a starting point, Politics Quarterly
:40:22. > :40:26.has delved into the Parliamentary Party of 2010 onwards, and noted
:40:26. > :40:29.the public school contingent has declined. Though still half, there
:40:29. > :40:33.are, in fact, fewer Etonians now, and two-thirds didn't go to
:40:33. > :40:41.Oxbridge. Most come from business or the law, the latter no different
:40:41. > :40:47.in Labour ranks. A quarter of the Cabinet are women. Justine Greening,
:40:47. > :40:53.a wouldn't call her posh. Baroness Warsi, my own boss. Patrick
:40:53. > :41:03.McLoughlin, he is not posh. What is the definition of posh? An accent
:41:03. > :41:04.
:41:04. > :41:08.or red background? -- a background. And therein lies the problem. Posh
:41:08. > :41:12.is one of those things that has no definition, but we think we know it
:41:12. > :41:15.when we see it, and look at where people have come from. Me it is
:41:15. > :41:18.true I went to private school, and I got expelled. I do not conform to
:41:18. > :41:28.your typical Tory woman. But, I think life is about how you carry
:41:28. > :41:29.
:41:29. > :41:32.yourself, that is what matters. Nobody has accused me of being posh.
:41:33. > :41:36.A useful metaphor for being out of touch, or in pure class war? The
:41:36. > :41:40.label of posh is like all caricatures. A splash of truth
:41:40. > :41:47.exaggerated for effect. It is more like Downton Abbey than it is
:41:47. > :41:57.Parliament at the moment! We're joined now by Peter York, he's an
:41:57. > :41:58.
:41:58. > :42:02.author and broadcaster who co-wrote the Sloane Ranger Handbook.
:42:02. > :42:07.Are you there for clay being you are a high-minded meritocracy in
:42:07. > :42:13.the Tories, or a low-budget downturn Abbey? The reality is, in
:42:13. > :42:19.1987 when we had a defeat, we lost a lot of MPs. Over successive
:42:19. > :42:22.elections, more of us are from what Tony Blair used to call bog-
:42:22. > :42:28.standard comprehensive education, half of the parliamentary party
:42:28. > :42:37.comes from state schools. A lot of grammar schools. 84 of us come from
:42:37. > :42:41.comprehensive schools. The number of public school Tory MPs rose in
:42:41. > :42:46.this election. The political Quarterly studies over a longer
:42:46. > :42:56.period. In the recent election, we had a rise of those public-school
:42:56. > :43:02.MPs, as a percentage. Up to 33%. Equally, 46% is from state schools.
:43:02. > :43:08.84 of us out of 304 are from competitive schools, many from
:43:08. > :43:12.council estates, we have learned our living and come to Parliament.
:43:12. > :43:15.We are reflective of the people out there we represent. Except, that is
:43:16. > :43:25.not seen by the people who follow the government, the government does
:43:26. > :43:26.
:43:26. > :43:31.not represent that. The Conservative MPs in the top
:43:31. > :43:35.positions, from the Prime Minister down, tend to be from public
:43:35. > :43:39.schools and Oxbridge. For naturally, after the 2010 election, those
:43:39. > :43:44.people sitting in opposition, speaking on behalf of the party,
:43:44. > :43:47.have tended to be the Cabinet and ministers. We are seeing people
:43:47. > :43:55.from the 2010 intake becoming ministers and making progress,
:43:55. > :44:04.those people come from ordinary backgrounds. Look at the number of
:44:04. > :44:09.seats we have gained. You are not chock-a-block with people who
:44:09. > :44:14.represent the north of the country. We are looking to make more games
:44:14. > :44:17.in the future. We need people from the local community who are
:44:17. > :44:25.representative of their local community who can then know and
:44:25. > :44:31.feel what it is like to be a hard- working family. Peter York, D U by
:44:31. > :44:39.this decline? No, because you would expect it to happen over time. In
:44:39. > :44:44.2013, the decline from the suit of Eden, Churchill Cabinet's, not
:44:45. > :44:50.spectacular at all. What comes out of that survey is how
:44:50. > :44:55.unrepresentative parliamentarians are as a whole. Across every way.
:44:55. > :45:01.It is a graduate profession, nine out of 10. Fantastically
:45:01. > :45:05.unrepresentative, whether that is good or bad. Second, that there is
:45:05. > :45:10.and remains a real difference between the parties. If you look at
:45:10. > :45:16.the number of privately educated people in the Tory and Labour
:45:16. > :45:20.parties, it is very different. Much higher in the Tory Party. If you
:45:20. > :45:26.were to read certain newspapers, you wouldn't think that was true
:45:26. > :45:33.but it is very much the case, one bird, less than one-third the
:45:33. > :45:43.numbers of independent school products in the Labour Party than
:45:43. > :45:47.
:45:47. > :45:52.I think it is a shame we are debating from the few that posh his
:45:52. > :45:57.bat. Eton provides an incredibly good education for people -- that
:45:57. > :46:07.posh is bad. I know quite a few parents who got their kids there on
:46:07. > :46:08.
:46:08. > :46:13.total scholarships. It turns out thinkers. A much scholarships at
:46:13. > :46:18.Eton... I know somebody who deals with a lot of interns and says the
:46:18. > :46:26.ones they get from Eton are two or three years ahead of the others.
:46:26. > :46:29.Don't decry a good education. Don't hold an education again somebody.
:46:29. > :46:34.Maybe halt against them what they have done after their education.
:46:34. > :46:40.But I don't think anybody is arguing against a decent education.
:46:40. > :46:46.Let me finish. All that a decent education is not a good criteria
:46:47. > :46:50.for being in government. The argument is that that good
:46:50. > :46:56.education has restricted to a small number of people and that therefore
:46:56. > :47:00.restricts the number and the kind of people that get into government.
:47:00. > :47:04.I do not want to discriminate against people because they come
:47:04. > :47:08.from a state school or a private school. All I care about is whether
:47:09. > :47:14.they are doing their job well. The problem the Conservatives have in
:47:14. > :47:20.the Cabinet is that two-thirds of them, of all the ministers, are
:47:21. > :47:27.from private school backgrounds. About 10% of from Eton. In the
:47:28. > :47:33.general public 7% go to private schools. There is this via that
:47:33. > :47:37.they are not in touch with what ordinary people think -- this fear.
:47:37. > :47:42.Whether that is right or wrong, that is a perception that is out
:47:42. > :47:48.there. If there is the long march through the tall institutions of
:47:48. > :47:53.ordinary folk, as Alastair Burnet said, playing folk, which he meant
:47:53. > :47:57.as a compliment, where is the perception of your party that it
:47:57. > :48:07.has gone back to the Macmillan years? That it is full of posh
:48:07. > :48:09.
:48:09. > :48:14.people? That is the perception. Why? The biggest intake of 2010
:48:14. > :48:21.since the Second World War in 2010. Many people on the backbenches are
:48:21. > :48:26.from comprehensive schools. They are still be coming to the for.
:48:26. > :48:31.Gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, it was more about that
:48:31. > :48:36.and people of ordinary backgrounds. A lot of the women and non-white
:48:37. > :48:43.Conservative MPs are pretty posh. Even one of the new black intake of
:48:43. > :48:48.Tory MPs went to Eton. There is nothing roll about being educated.
:48:48. > :48:54.But where is the huge intake from those who were not lucky enough to
:48:54. > :48:58.get that education? There is nothing wrong about being educated.
:48:58. > :49:03.More than a quarter of MPs entered parliament after being researchers
:49:03. > :49:08.and walking for MPs and we have to get more people from ordinary lives,
:49:08. > :49:12.not the Westminster bubble. understand this. I did a
:49:12. > :49:18.documentary about it. But it is easier said than done because
:49:18. > :49:22.politics is now so professional, and first advantage goes to the
:49:22. > :49:27.first movers. Be in no doubt about that, we have the three main party
:49:27. > :49:35.leaders, all of them started life basically as political researchers.
:49:35. > :49:43.All of them, straight out of Oxbridge. Oxbridge teaches you how
:49:43. > :49:47.to be a public adviser and the best comprehensive and grammar schools,
:49:47. > :49:52.because there are different kinds, the kind of comprehensive that Ed
:49:52. > :49:56.Miliband went to as opposed to other crimes. This is a problem for
:49:56. > :50:00.Labour, the professionalisation of politics. They may be more diverse
:50:00. > :50:04.in terms of social background than the Conservatives, and have become
:50:04. > :50:09.more so now they are not dominated by the unions, though they have
:50:09. > :50:13.lost a lot of working-class background people, but they also go
:50:13. > :50:20.for professional people who come straight out of Oxbridge into
:50:20. > :50:24.Westminster and never leave. Over- educated. How do you change that?
:50:24. > :50:30.In the old days people went into trade unions, the army, they built
:50:30. > :50:38.a business, from the City, and then they came into the Commons. One of
:50:38. > :50:42.the thing that has changes... of them are councillors. Before
:50:42. > :50:47.they become MPs. They have had a history of representing people,
:50:47. > :50:51.they have had a history of looking after the work of an MP it and they
:50:51. > :50:54.have got their hands dirty. Let's see what the next parliament looks
:50:54. > :50:58.like. You can come back and see us then.
:50:58. > :51:04.So David Beckham's off to Paris. There's been a bit of a kerfuffle
:51:04. > :51:07.over a ball boy. Timbuktu made the front pages of a lot of newspapers.
:51:07. > :51:15.And Prince Charles and his missus travelled by tube. Albeit only one
:51:16. > :51:22.stop. The Bentley was we did Ed the other end! -- was waiting at the
:51:22. > :51:31.other end! Let's have a look at the week in 60 seconds with Susana.
:51:31. > :51:39.High-speed rail says two will go full speed ahead, but not until
:51:39. > :51:44.2032. The PM went to a jury to talk terrorism but he said this is not
:51:44. > :51:51.the next Iran. We do not look at this region and think the answer is
:51:51. > :51:56.purely military. The noes to the left, 334. The Lib Dems joined
:51:56. > :52:00.Labour in knocking constituency boundary changes on the head.
:52:00. > :52:06.Should Scotland be an independent country? That is the question
:52:06. > :52:15.decided, again. Traces of horses have been found in the Conservative
:52:15. > :52:25.Party food chain! The MP has sent an opportunity and is secretly
:52:25. > :52:25.
:52:25. > :52:32.plotting to oust David Cameron. it time to say, see you, Dave?
:52:32. > :52:37.David, you have your ear to the ground. Is this a real stalking
:52:37. > :52:41.horse or a load of nonsense? doubt there were plots going on to
:52:41. > :52:46.stand him up as a stalking horse. They wanted this group of MPs, they
:52:46. > :52:54.looked at some of the more senior MPs who might want to take on David
:52:54. > :53:01.Cameron, could not get anybody to do it. There is a group of people
:53:01. > :53:05.chattering away in the background. Who did not get jobs? No. There is
:53:05. > :53:09.disgruntlement. We were talking about the Cabinet being posh boys
:53:09. > :53:16.because perhaps David is patronising and they feel they are
:53:16. > :53:20.left out. But why do they want rid of Mr Cameron? Like you say,
:53:20. > :53:25.disgruntlement. Originally it was all about Europe. Europe seems to
:53:25. > :53:29.have, it down. When he said he would have a referendum, it took
:53:29. > :53:34.the sting out of it. What is also interesting is the fact we found
:53:34. > :53:41.out the name of Adam. We did not know it at first. We only got that
:53:41. > :53:45.name on the Friday. That has killed him off now. The kiss of death.
:53:45. > :53:50.he was a promising looking candidate. I am well aware that
:53:50. > :53:54.David Cameron is not the most popular Tory leader ever on the
:53:54. > :53:58.Tory backbenches. I understand that. But he then did give them the
:53:58. > :54:04.biggest bit of red meat they had been looking for, the in that
:54:04. > :54:09.referendum on Europe. What puzzled me was the timing. -- Pete in out
:54:09. > :54:15.referendum. Exactly. Did he sends it coming and say, I would deliver
:54:15. > :54:20.that speech on Europe? Because that has quelled the disgruntlement.
:54:20. > :54:24.Safe until 2015, that is where they are saying. Are you in any doubt
:54:24. > :54:31.that David Cameron will lead his party into the next election?
:54:31. > :54:37.have no doubt about that, I think he will. Ideas of being knocked
:54:37. > :54:42.down, a load of nonsense? These disgruntled people are now calling
:54:42. > :54:45.for George Osborne to be removed. He might be an easier target.
:54:45. > :54:51.are saying if he can't get growth moving, then perhaps they should
:54:51. > :54:54.remove him. Ed Miliband says we can sense the moves are hurting us, we
:54:54. > :54:59.just consents it is healing the economy at the moment and that is
:54:59. > :55:05.what we need to see -- we just cannot sense. It is only two years
:55:05. > :55:10.away. If we are agreed that as things stand at the moment, but two
:55:10. > :55:14.leaders of the two biggest parties will be there on polling day, are
:55:14. > :55:20.we also in no doubt that the next election will be fought on the old
:55:20. > :55:24.boundaries? I think so. Boundary reform will not happen. No and that
:55:24. > :55:29.would have helped the Tories a lot. David Cameron is riding quite high
:55:29. > :55:33.at the moment with the EU speech and he has done well in Africa, I
:55:33. > :55:39.think he must be very irritated by that. That would have meant 20
:55:39. > :55:42.seats for the Tories. And he needs those. The Poles or Labour were not
:55:42. > :55:51.good at the weekend but they have got better since -- the opinion
:55:51. > :55:55.polls for Labour. But when we say good, we need 10%. When I speak to
:55:55. > :56:03.Labour people, I detect they wonder, shouldn't it be a lot bigger at the
:56:03. > :56:09.moment? It should. Mid-term. They are not having a good time. People
:56:09. > :56:14.are being hurt in so many ways. Taxes, fuel, benefits. They should
:56:14. > :56:19.be much higher. I think the pressure is now one George Osborne.
:56:19. > :56:24.The economy is what is causing the tour is the biggest worry. That
:56:24. > :56:28.will win or lose them the next election -- causing the Tories.
:56:28. > :56:34.I cannot get past the fact that he says we are all in it together and
:56:34. > :56:41.very clearly, he is a toff, he is very rich, and it does not hurt him
:56:41. > :56:46.up like it hurts us. And he is one of their only northern constituency
:56:46. > :56:51.MPs. From the posh bit of Cheshire it. I think Mr Cameron will stick
:56:51. > :57:01.with him, they are a double-act and they have none of the Gordon Brown-
:57:01. > :57:09.Tony Blair tension. It just too. Luckily, I am far enough West!
:57:09. > :57:13.- Hs2. I believe we need it and we have to have it. If you look at the
:57:13. > :57:17.first phase from London to Birmingham, they have listened a
:57:17. > :57:25.lot. They have created tunnels. They are trying to listen to people
:57:26. > :57:30.and as long as they have that, it is good news. The Sun readers are
:57:30. > :57:38.up for this, particularly in the north. It will credit 100,000 jobs
:57:38. > :57:47.in those cities, good for business, cut travel times. We complained
:57:47. > :57:50.about the... We take it for granted. As we do the M25. And the M40. My
:57:50. > :57:54.favourite motorway. There's just time before we go to
:57:54. > :57:58.find out the answer to our quiz. The question was: Sally Bercow has
:57:58. > :58:01.told Twitter that she has had a tattoo. So what was it? Was it a
:58:01. > :58:06.portcullis? John Bercow's coat of arms? The names of her children? Or
:58:06. > :58:13.an anchor? So what's the correct answer? Names of her children?
:58:13. > :58:22.dancer. She obviously read the Sun this morning. It was the shape of a
:58:22. > :58:27.heart. Be it obviously means no more children. Three is enough!
:58:27. > :58:33.That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The one o'clock news is
:58:33. > :58:43.starting over on BBC One now. I'll be back on BBC One on Sunday with
:58:43. > :58:44.
:58:44. > :58:49.the Sunday Politics. Our guest will be William Hague, the Foreign