:00:45. > :00:51.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. A Government U-turn
:00:51. > :00:56.on education, Michael Gove decide and not to abandon GCSEs after all.
:00:56. > :01:00.But he does plan to beat them up. He made a lengthy statement in the
:01:00. > :01:05.Commons this morning. We will bring you the latest.
:01:05. > :01:10.Do not come here it is damp, cold and miserable. Ministers have been
:01:10. > :01:15.trying to discourage Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants coming to
:01:15. > :01:20.Britain. Are they waiting an aggressive, negative campaign? I
:01:20. > :01:23.will be asking the formal Bulgarian prime minister.
:01:23. > :01:29.The British prime minister joins other EU ministers in Brussels this
:01:29. > :01:32.afternoon. He says he will fight for a real freeze in the US -- EU
:01:33. > :01:37.budget. And the political book of the Year
:01:37. > :01:43.award is going to be announced. We will bring the winner into the
:01:43. > :01:47.street year. It is a busy day today. With us for
:01:47. > :01:54.the duration is Leanne Wood, the leader of Plaid Cymru, the party of
:01:54. > :02:02.Wales. It is the first time we have had tea in the studio. It is, yes.
:02:02. > :02:08.Welcome. First, the perils of live radio phone-ins. Nick Clegg was
:02:08. > :02:14.doing his regular weekly phone-in on the London radio station LBC
:02:14. > :02:22.went a certain chap called Boris from Islington came on the line.
:02:22. > :02:27.Listen to this. A caller from Islington. Hello, Nick, it is Boris
:02:27. > :02:31.from Islington. When are you going to get all those Government
:02:31. > :02:37.ministers out of their posh limousines on to public transport
:02:37. > :02:44.like anybody else? How can you expect a Government to boat for
:02:44. > :02:49.increases in infrastructure spending when they sit in their
:02:49. > :02:53.chauffeur-driven limousines paid for by the taxpayer rather than
:02:53. > :03:01.getting on public transport? Nick, get them out of their limousines.
:03:01. > :03:11.Boris, over and out. Nick Clegg realised who it was instantly. He
:03:11. > :03:12.
:03:12. > :03:21.is not on the line? That is a pity. Boris, if you are listening, I
:03:21. > :03:27.think we have cut the amount of tax pear money which is used to pay for
:03:27. > :03:33.the cars for ministers. It is about 70%, we have massively slashed it
:03:33. > :03:38.and changed it. You may wonder what the connection with Wales is. We
:03:38. > :03:43.have discovered the Welsh Secretary used his ministerial car to travel
:03:43. > :03:48.110 yards from the Welsh Office to Downing Street. What do you think
:03:48. > :03:54.of that? Most people will have difficulty understanding the
:03:54. > :03:59.rationale for it. Maybe it was raining. What is wrong with an
:03:59. > :04:05.umbrella? Maybe it was windy. so many people are struggling to
:04:05. > :04:09.make ends meet with the austerity measures that have been meted out,
:04:09. > :04:15.and there is an increasing number of people accessing food banks, it
:04:15. > :04:20.is difficult to understand why politicians would have perks like
:04:20. > :04:24.this. That is on top of the scandals that we have seen. You do
:04:24. > :04:29.not think senior ministers, the Foreign Secretary, the Chancellor,
:04:29. > :04:37.should not have ministerial cars? There may be an argument having a
:04:37. > :04:44.driver to go to certain meetings, but for 100 yards? 100 yards, to
:04:44. > :04:50.John Prescott got into trouble for that. He said his wife had just had
:04:50. > :04:54.her hair done! But if you have got sensitive papers, the point of a
:04:54. > :04:59.car for a minister it is not only is it quite secure, but you can
:04:59. > :05:03.carry on working at making phone calls. Everybody else who goes to
:05:03. > :05:09.work daily is working on the train or maybe has papers that are
:05:09. > :05:14.confidential. Everybody else can manage. There is no country in the
:05:15. > :05:20.world that does not give its ministers a chauffeur-driven car.
:05:20. > :05:27.think Sweden. Politicians are expected to use public transport in
:05:28. > :05:35.Sweden. The Prime Minister in the television series has a car. Does
:05:35. > :05:39.she not cycle? Do Welsh ministers get cars? Yes, there are a fleet of
:05:39. > :05:45.cars in the National Assembly for Wales. That is one of the things we
:05:45. > :05:49.should be considering whether or not a fleet of cars is in the best
:05:49. > :05:55.and public interest. But the money saved would be peanuts. They would
:05:55. > :06:00.all use minicabs. It would be even more expensive. You could say
:06:00. > :06:06.peanuts would be saved, but lots of peanuts makes up quite a big pot of
:06:06. > :06:11.money potentially. The Education Secretary is making a statement to
:06:11. > :06:16.the Commons on that you turn. He was going to scrap GCSEs and now he
:06:16. > :06:20.is not. We were watching that statement earlier and we will bring
:06:20. > :06:26.you a bit of it later in the programme. But we have our own
:06:26. > :06:30.political exam for you. It is the Daily Politics quiz. Yesterday a
:06:30. > :06:34.new hereditary peer, Viscount Ridley, was elected to the House of
:06:34. > :06:38.Lords. You might think it is a contradiction that hereditary
:06:38. > :06:44.members are elected, but they are and it does not seem to bother them.
:06:44. > :06:48.There were no fewer than 27 candidates for a one vacancy.
:06:48. > :06:55.Viscount Ridley also holds another hereditary title which he shares
:06:55. > :07:05.with the name of a cheese. But which cheese? Is he Barron
:07:05. > :07:05.
:07:05. > :07:11.Wensleydale, Lord Yarg, Earl cheddar, or the Mikey of Lymeswold.
:07:11. > :07:19.At the end, Leanne Wood will give us the correct answer. Or she will
:07:19. > :07:24.have a guess. How is your Polish? Mine is fluent. Last week Polish
:07:24. > :07:29.was the main language spoken in England after English according to
:07:29. > :07:37.the 2011 census, but when the next census happens might we all be
:07:37. > :07:40.speaking Romanian all Bulgarian? Temporary measures imposed in 2005
:07:40. > :07:45.to protect the British labour market expire in December and they
:07:45. > :07:49.cannot be extended. This means people from those countries will be
:07:49. > :07:55.allowed to come to the UK to work and lives and will have the same
:07:55. > :07:59.rights as others from the European Union. The last time this happened
:07:59. > :08:03.was in 2004. The Labour Government did not make any transitional
:08:03. > :08:07.arrangements and it grossly underestimated the number of Polish
:08:07. > :08:13.people and Eastern Europeans coming to the UK went eight European
:08:13. > :08:19.countries joined the EU. This Government is said to be
:08:19. > :08:22.considering a negative poster campaign to stop people from coming
:08:22. > :08:27.and to correct the impression that Britain's streets are paved with
:08:27. > :08:34.gold. The communities and local Government secretary, Eric Pickles,
:08:34. > :08:37.told me of an influx of Romanians and Bulgarians which would add to
:08:37. > :08:44.existing housing problems, but he refused to give me an estimate of
:08:44. > :08:51.the numbers of people he might move to the UK. That is not something I
:08:51. > :08:55.think would be helpful in terms of offering numbers just yet. Why not?
:08:55. > :09:02.You would have to have a degree of confidence in terms of the numbers
:09:02. > :09:04.before publicly stating them. Harper is the Conservative
:09:04. > :09:09.Immigration Minister and he is chairing a committee on the issue
:09:09. > :09:14.and said restrictions could be imposed on access to the NHS and
:09:14. > :09:20.some benefit payments. But the Bulgarians have hit back with their
:09:20. > :09:27.own poster campaign. They have hit back with their own campaign and it
:09:27. > :09:32.ends up saying why do you not come and live here? Good question. We
:09:32. > :09:37.are joined in the studio by Conservative MP Mark Reckless who
:09:37. > :09:41.sits on the Home Affairs Select Committee. First, let's speak to
:09:41. > :09:46.Sergei Stanishev, the former Prime Minister of Bulgaria, now the
:09:46. > :09:50.leader of the European Socialists in the European Parliament. Welcome
:09:50. > :09:55.to the Daily Politics. What do you make of the British Government's
:09:55. > :09:59.attitude to your country and to Romania? Good day to you. First of
:09:59. > :10:04.all, I can tell you that the weather currently here is not much
:10:04. > :10:10.better than the United Kingdom. This argument about the weather is
:10:10. > :10:15.not very strong indeed. But take it for British humour. The important
:10:15. > :10:23.thing is to stick to the facts and figures. According to the British
:10:23. > :10:29.statistics, the official statistics, in 2010, there have been 35,000
:10:29. > :10:34.Bulgarians living in the UK altogether. This cannot create any
:10:34. > :10:39.real problem to the labour market or to the social security system
:10:39. > :10:45.because according to the same figures there have been 600
:10:45. > :10:52.unemployed Bulgarian citizens in the United Kingdom. It is really a
:10:52. > :10:57.drop in the ocean. Most of the Bulgarians have go and study
:10:57. > :11:02.because the overall number of students is more than 5000 students,
:11:02. > :11:06.Bulgarian and Romanian together, and they are bringing more than 30
:11:06. > :11:12.million euros in taxes and living expenses to the UK economy. I
:11:12. > :11:18.remember when Bulgaria was joining the European Union in 2007, there
:11:18. > :11:25.were the same fears and scary tales in the UK media. Then I issued the
:11:25. > :11:29.media that they would have no problems. This came to be true.
:11:29. > :11:34.I just interrupt you, but the scary tales are coming from the
:11:34. > :11:40.Government rather than the media. Our estimate we have been given is
:11:40. > :11:49.that there are 130,000 Romanians and Bulgarians immigrants already
:11:49. > :11:57.in the UK. Do you have any idea went all the border controls
:11:57. > :12:02.comedown how many Bulgarians and Romanians will come to Britain?
:12:02. > :12:06.is mostly a risk when the Government is taking such positions.
:12:06. > :12:10.I would like to remind you according to EU law, which has to
:12:10. > :12:15.be respected by every country including the United Kingdom,
:12:15. > :12:20.restrictions should be lifted. This was said by the spokesperson of the
:12:20. > :12:24.European Commission on this issue. This is fair because we all give
:12:24. > :12:28.something to the European Union, we all benefit from this and I can
:12:28. > :12:33.assure you, I am absolutely confident there will be no influx
:12:33. > :12:37.of Bulgarian emigrants to the UK. That is fine, but what is the
:12:37. > :12:47.answer to my question? I asked you how many do you believe it will
:12:47. > :12:50.come? I cannot say. It is up to the institutions, but I do remember the
:12:50. > :12:54.same scare existed for many years ago and it did not happen. I
:12:54. > :13:01.mention to you the number of Bulgarians who currently lead in
:13:01. > :13:05.the United Kingdom. I understand that. We learned to date in the
:13:05. > :13:12.newspapers that Britain is now the biggest magnet of all in Europe for
:13:12. > :13:16.immigrants from all over. We have overtaken Germany and Spain. More
:13:16. > :13:21.people now come to this country as immigrants that any other country
:13:21. > :13:25.in the European Union. If you cannot give me a number, is it not
:13:25. > :13:29.reasonable to assume that Bulgarians and Romanians will be no
:13:29. > :13:35.different? They will like the look of Britain and they will want to
:13:35. > :13:41.come? I am one of those Bulgarians who used to live in the UK as a
:13:41. > :13:46.student. I studied at the LSE. I am back in Bulgaria and many young
:13:46. > :13:51.Bulgarians have more prospects and chances not only in Bulgaria, but
:13:51. > :13:55.in many other European countries. I think it is not a matter of
:13:55. > :13:58.domestic scary policy. I would like to relate it to another European
:13:59. > :14:04.debate which is ongoing in the United Kingdom in a very strange
:14:04. > :14:08.way. Currently those politicians and leaders who insist in further
:14:08. > :14:12.reducing the European budget are actually calling for a more at
:14:12. > :14:17.immigrants to come to the UK or other countries because when you
:14:17. > :14:21.reduce the funds for development and confusion, for Social Security
:14:21. > :14:27.in the new member countries, in the less developed countries of the
:14:27. > :14:30.European Union, then you are asking them to come to your country.
:14:30. > :14:35.have to leave you there and thank you for joining us from Bulgaria.
:14:35. > :14:39.It is good to see you, come back and speak to us again. Let me bring
:14:39. > :14:43.in Mark Reckless in the studio. Should the British Government
:14:43. > :14:48.really be going to Bulgaria and Romania and saying, do not come
:14:48. > :14:53.here, we are a horrible place? not sure we should be having a
:14:53. > :15:00.negative advertising campaign. would you want to run down your own
:15:00. > :15:10.country? Indeed, but the background to this is the Labour Government
:15:10. > :15:17.
:15:17. > :15:20.said 13,000 would come, but vast I remember it well, we covered it
:15:20. > :15:23.on the Daily Politics. They got the calculation of how many would come
:15:23. > :15:28.totally wrong. I accept all of that but your Government's response now
:15:28. > :15:31.is to give us no estimate of how many Romanians and Bulgarians,
:15:31. > :15:38.agreed? The Government's concerned if it does give an estimate, if
:15:38. > :15:46.it's too high it will be used of scare-mongering, if it's too low it
:15:46. > :15:49.will be be come phrasency. Do you think they have a secret estimate
:15:49. > :15:52.that they are working on, they're just not telling us? I wouldn't ask
:15:52. > :15:56.the Government to do the impossible. There is an interaction between our
:15:56. > :16:03.membership of the EU, not having border controls, anyone being able
:16:03. > :16:06.to come to this country and having a welfare system where people don't
:16:06. > :16:09.understand it, where people who haven't contributed to our system
:16:09. > :16:14.can come and immediately start gaining benefits. That's the
:16:14. > :16:18.problem. I want to come on to that, for the moment I want to deal -
:16:18. > :16:25.because it's an important issue, I want to stick with the overall
:16:25. > :16:30.issue at the moment. Migration Watch, which is a private thinktank,
:16:30. > :16:37.it says it expects about 50,000 people from Romania to come each
:16:37. > :16:40.year and Bulgaria until 2019. Does that sound reasonable to you?
:16:40. > :16:45.Migration Watch are a respected institution. I understand. I take
:16:45. > :16:53.their estimate very seriously. I don't know because other labour
:16:53. > :16:56.markets are opening at the same time. I am not sure - I just what's
:16:56. > :17:00.difficult to estimate, Denmark and Ireland have a similar system in
:17:00. > :17:04.terms of welfare benefits, but how much the ability to very quickly
:17:04. > :17:08.gain in work benefits when you are getting an income which is pretty
:17:08. > :17:17.high compared to Romania and Bulgaria, I don't know what impact
:17:17. > :17:20.that's going to have. Given the Poles and other east Europeans came
:17:20. > :17:24.in numbers not predicted, I know you thought the Government was
:17:24. > :17:29.wrong but not sure you knew there would be so so many, what damage
:17:29. > :17:32.did it do this country? I think it's made people feel we don't have
:17:32. > :17:35.control of our borders. But what damage, that may be true but that's
:17:35. > :17:41.part of being a member of the European Union. We have free
:17:41. > :17:45.movement of labour. And of capital. What damage did it do to have all
:17:45. > :17:49.these hard-working, motivated, in many cases well-educated people,
:17:49. > :17:54.come to this country? In particular areas where that movement of people
:17:54. > :17:58.has been concentrated, it's put a lot of pressure on public services
:17:58. > :18:05.and I also think that people at the lower end of our labour market who
:18:05. > :18:11.are often competing with new people coming in, they may well have seen
:18:11. > :18:15.wages depressed bay degree and -- by a degree and other people have
:18:15. > :18:21.been prepared to take those jobs. said Wye come back to the matter of
:18:22. > :18:26.welfare. Do you think that those who come here, that both welfare
:18:26. > :18:29.benefits and NHS treatment should not be available to them? In terms
:18:29. > :18:33.of welfare benefits, one change I really think we should make is we
:18:34. > :18:37.should stop paying child benefit to children who are not resident in
:18:37. > :18:41.this country. I think that's very, very important. Is that it, would
:18:41. > :18:46.you make more changes? The other issue in terms of benefits, we have
:18:47. > :18:52.tax credits where people in low or middling paid jobs, on a non-
:18:52. > :18:59.contributory basis get that tax credit. Romanians and Bulgarians
:18:59. > :19:07.are likely to get that too, probably against EU law not to do
:19:07. > :19:11.that. People will been given benefits particularly if they have
:19:11. > :19:15.children, that's a real problem about how our system interacts with
:19:15. > :19:19.membership of the EU. What do you make of this? Costs and benefits to
:19:19. > :19:24.the free movement of people, people from the UK move to other countries
:19:24. > :19:28.and get the benefits from those countries, too. I think the point
:19:28. > :19:31.about workers at the lower end of the pharget having their -- market
:19:31. > :19:35.having their wages depressed is a good point but that could be
:19:35. > :19:38.overcome by social protections for all workers across the board to
:19:38. > :19:44.protect those wages. What does that mean? By ensuring a decent standard
:19:44. > :19:48.of living in terms of wages so that terms and conditions can't be
:19:48. > :19:52.undercut, strong trade unions, as well. Doesn't sound like you are
:19:52. > :19:57.going to get many changes. That might make it even more expensive
:19:57. > :20:00.to give benefits, but we could have changes. If people want to take
:20:00. > :20:05.back control of our immigration system, then in 2015 if they vote
:20:05. > :20:08.for a Conservative Government they will get a referendum to choose
:20:08. > :20:12.whether they stay part of it. are you going to vote in that?
:20:12. > :20:17.would be very - I wish the Prime Minister well in trying to get
:20:17. > :20:21.powers back. I think it's likely I would be on the side campaigning to
:20:21. > :20:25.come out but I also... You will vote no probably? The Prime
:20:25. > :20:31.Minister's right to try and get... I get that. I wanted a yes or no.
:20:31. > :20:36.We should be an independent country. Thank you.
:20:36. > :20:39.Immigration isn't the only talking point in Europe this week. EU
:20:39. > :20:42.leaders arrive in Brussels this afternoon to try to carve out a
:20:42. > :20:47.deal on the EU Budget. They've been talking about that at the European
:20:47. > :20:52.Parliament in Strasbourg, too, where are very own Jo Co is.
:20:52. > :20:59.Here I am again in Strasbourg. The European Parliament as of now backs
:20:59. > :21:04.the Commission's proposal for a 5% increase in the long-term budget,
:21:04. > :21:08.something called the MFF from 2014 but within the European Parliament
:21:08. > :21:18.not all MEPs agree with that line. I have three MEPs here to discuss
:21:18. > :21:25.
:21:25. > :21:30.that with me. Welcome to all of you. Let me come
:21:30. > :21:37.to you, first of all. Why should there be an increase in the budget
:21:37. > :21:42.for the EU when everyone across Europe is suffering economically?
:21:42. > :21:48.Because the EU budget is 95% investment budget and in these days
:21:48. > :21:58.of economic crisis we need growth and jobs and the only way to do it
:21:58. > :22:03.is to have investing possibilities and the European budget is 95%,
:22:03. > :22:07.there is no EU member states budget like this for investment, which is
:22:07. > :22:14.used for growth and jobs. People might say you would say that, your
:22:14. > :22:18.country is a big recipient of money. No. These MEPs from Britain, of
:22:18. > :22:26.course, are big contributors. What do you say to Derek and Marta who
:22:26. > :22:33.are calling for the overall budget to be brought down? We are
:22:33. > :22:40.recipient, but you have to think that - invest in one corner of
:22:40. > :22:46.Europe, of EU is bringing benefits also in other corner. So you cannot
:22:46. > :22:51.say that in Romania if you work on European money is only Romania is
:22:51. > :22:54.the beneficiary, it's also all - there are also other companies
:22:54. > :22:58.working in Romania. What do you say to that? Does David Cameron
:22:58. > :23:05.actually have any real chance of getting an agreement that reduces
:23:05. > :23:13.the overall budget? Well, I think we need to think that the past
:23:13. > :23:17.seven years were supposed to have turned the European Union in a very
:23:17. > :23:23.competitive market, state of the art in innovation and energy and
:23:23. > :23:27.what has happened, all this money that taxpayers in the European
:23:27. > :23:32.Union put into this budget have not actually produced the results that
:23:32. > :23:37.were expected. Is David Cameron going to achieve his aim? I think
:23:37. > :23:43.he should achieve the aim of reducing the budget because there
:23:43. > :23:47.is no justification to increase it. We have not achieved the aims, who
:23:47. > :23:51.can guarantee we are going to achieve the aims for the future,
:23:51. > :23:56.even if we get more money? Where is the support going to come from for
:23:56. > :24:02.David Cameron's position? Labour called for a real terms cut and yet
:24:02. > :24:07.you agree with Mr Marinescu that we need money for growth? There's
:24:07. > :24:11.going to be a lot of smoke and mirrors at this summit, they may
:24:11. > :24:15.well reduce the budget. But first of all, we don't know where it's
:24:15. > :24:19.going to be a real terms freeze or cut. Second thing I would say is
:24:19. > :24:22.this is a missed opportunity. We have a one in seven-year chance
:24:22. > :24:26.here to reform the EU budget. We should be looking at savings, but
:24:26. > :24:30.also we should be looking to invest more money in things which promote
:24:30. > :24:33.jobs and growth so the regional funds, infrastructure, youth
:24:33. > :24:38.guarantee scheme, research and development. Where would you cut
:24:38. > :24:48.then, in order to bring the budget down? The question to answer to Mr
:24:48. > :24:51.
:24:51. > :24:56.Cameron, you want 200... The common agricultural policy. That That
:24:56. > :25:02.doesn't seem to be on the table. There's opportunities to make
:25:02. > :25:06.savings in the budget, for example, a billion euros a year going export
:25:06. > :25:10.subsidies, like for tobacco and alcohol, let's cut those. There's
:25:10. > :25:15.Strasbourg session here, every year it costs 180 million to come to
:25:15. > :25:22.Strasbourg. There are savings to be made. They should be making those.
:25:22. > :25:31.External action surveys that has provided no benefit in its years of
:25:31. > :25:35.existence. Baroness Ashton has not achieved anything and that costs.
:25:35. > :25:42.This is an opportunity to make savings in the member states
:25:42. > :25:48.because they reduce... It's not an opportunity... External services,
:25:49. > :25:55.because we can use the European ones if we want to have only one
:25:55. > :26:00.voice. This is not happening. Baroness Ashton responded to me
:26:00. > :26:03.individually that the external action service would not replace
:26:03. > :26:06.national embassies. Is this about member states fighting their
:26:06. > :26:16.corners and forgetting about the bigger picture? Absolutely. Some
:26:16. > :26:19.member states are going to fight for struck structural funds. They
:26:19. > :26:24.should have taken this opportunity. We should be putting more money
:26:24. > :26:27.into structural funds. Wales, is a net beneficiary of funds, we gain
:26:27. > :26:30.and in Wales most of the infrastructure projects, most of
:26:30. > :26:34.the training schemes, research and development is paid for by the EU
:26:34. > :26:38.and that's the type of thing you should be funding. About Angela
:26:38. > :26:44.Merkel back David Cameron in these negotiations? I think she should.
:26:44. > :26:47.Will she? I think she will because she needs the UK. That's the issue.
:26:47. > :26:53.The The European Union needs the United Kingdom, so she will, of
:26:53. > :26:56.course, back him. All right. The UK also needs EU, in my opinion.
:26:56. > :27:01.European Union needs the UK more than the UK needs the European
:27:01. > :27:06.Union. It would be the other way. We could have a longer discussion
:27:06. > :27:15.about this, thank you to all three. No doubt the discussions will go on
:27:15. > :27:17.and on. Thanks. And we'll stick with Europe and the
:27:17. > :27:20.in/out referendum promised by David Cameron after the next election.
:27:20. > :27:23.The Prime Minister's betting that the referendum will be popular with
:27:23. > :27:26.the British people but how will it go down in the devolved nations? We
:27:26. > :27:32.asked people in Cardiff whether they thought Wales should leave the
:27:32. > :27:37.If that happens, then we are becoming our own little - instead
:27:37. > :27:41.of being united as one it's going to be everybody going separate ways,
:27:41. > :27:44.wouldn't that make it worse off? Stay, I think. We received a number
:27:45. > :27:51.of funds to bring companies into Wales, our company being one of
:27:51. > :27:54.them. These more marginal areas away from the centre benefit from
:27:55. > :27:58.forms of regional aid which come from Europe, which the UK
:27:58. > :28:01.Government or the English Government doesn't care to hand out
:28:01. > :28:07.so often. If we were to have a referendum nationally and the UK
:28:07. > :28:10.were to vote to leave Europe what do you think Wales should do?
:28:10. > :28:14.on as Europe is responsible for most of the health and safety,
:28:14. > :28:19.without it we would be in a poor place. It's got to be what's right
:28:19. > :28:23.for Wales, not for England. cannot leave the European Union. We
:28:23. > :28:28.are united with England really. We are not a country in the European
:28:28. > :28:32.Union. That question doesn't arise really.
:28:32. > :28:35.Nice hat! And we're joined now by the Welsh
:28:35. > :28:38.Office Minister Stephen Crabbe and the leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne
:28:38. > :28:44.Wood, is still with us. Are the people of Wales less or
:28:44. > :28:49.more Eurosceptic than the English say? I think it's in Wales'
:28:49. > :28:52.national interest to remain within the EU. We as the people have said
:28:52. > :28:56.in the film, we benefit from structural funds. I know your
:28:56. > :29:00.position. I understand that. You would want to stay in. The people
:29:00. > :29:06.in general, are they more or less Eurosceptic? I would say less
:29:06. > :29:10.tprrbgs that film -- from that film you have shown as well. Our films
:29:10. > :29:14.are brilliant but they're not scientific. What do you think?
:29:14. > :29:18.Judging from my constituency, I can say there is increasing demands for
:29:18. > :29:20.reform of our relationship with Europe. The question your reporter
:29:20. > :29:23.wasn't asking was do people in Wales want to see our relationship
:29:23. > :29:27.change and reformed? I think if that question was asked would you
:29:27. > :29:31.find more people saying yes we want more value for money out of the
:29:31. > :29:38.European Union and less intrusion and less regulation. What do you
:29:38. > :29:41.say? But you want out, that's your party's position. The Prime
:29:41. > :29:46.Minister is clear, we think there are benefits of being in the
:29:46. > :29:49.European Union. But you have to recognise that there's a real
:29:49. > :29:53.appetite out there in parts of the UK for reforming our relationship
:29:53. > :29:57.with Europe, getting more value for money and that ties in with the
:29:57. > :30:07.budget debate this weekend but also in terms of intrusiveness of
:30:07. > :30:07.
:30:07. > :30:12.regulation, businesses want change, too. If you get the - if you can
:30:12. > :30:15.repatriate some powers, the party's position, you would vote to stay in
:30:15. > :30:25.or if you don't get that, if the khoeuts is the status quo, or
:30:25. > :30:26.
:30:26. > :30:31.leaving what would you do? That's a hypothetical question. Where are
:30:31. > :30:35.you on this? Is there enough time in Wales for certain powers - you
:30:35. > :30:45.are in favour of devolution, why not repatriate some powers to the
:30:45. > :30:54.
:30:54. > :30:58.$:/STARTFEED. Of course we want to see reform. There are aspects of do
:30:58. > :31:02.you -- the European Union, and the weight of money involved. None of
:31:02. > :31:06.that is going to change. I was listening to the French ambassador
:31:06. > :31:11.this morning and one of the interviewers razed it and he just
:31:11. > :31:15.kicked it out of touch, saying that is impossible, Strasbourg is
:31:15. > :31:20.symbolic of the war generation of everything that Europe stands for.
:31:20. > :31:24.It is the peace city on the German border with France. It is never
:31:24. > :31:29.going to happen. This is the difficulty David Cameron has got.
:31:29. > :31:34.He is not going to get the changes he wants. This is why we should be
:31:34. > :31:38.backing the Prime Minister this weekend. He wants to get these
:31:38. > :31:44.European politicians to recognise the reality we are in. We cannot
:31:45. > :31:51.carry on spending more and more or. But you know how much Wales is
:31:51. > :31:57.benefiting. How many jobs would be lost in Wales where that budget to
:31:57. > :32:00.be cut? Thousands. Of Wales receives a lot of support from
:32:00. > :32:07.Europe and over the last 10 years has it helped really grow the
:32:07. > :32:12.economy of Wales? We have fallen further behind. We could be worse.
:32:12. > :32:19.But is there a real future for Wales if that future means it is
:32:19. > :32:24.continually dependent on subsidies from London or Brussels? No way. No,
:32:24. > :32:30.we cannot continue being subsidised, absolutely not, and that is why my
:32:30. > :32:34.party has said economy and jobs have to be the top priority. We
:32:34. > :32:39.want to be independent and depend upon ourselves. I know that is a
:32:40. > :32:45.long-term goal, but you are not like the SNP, you are not in favour
:32:45. > :32:49.of independence tomorrow or next year or the year after? There is
:32:49. > :32:53.the affordability question for us and in the interim we want the
:32:53. > :33:01.National Assembly for Wales to have powers over taxation and the powers
:33:01. > :33:06.to change the economy. It is more devolution. His Wales in decline?
:33:07. > :33:12.Over the last 10 years we have fallen behind. 20 years. But there
:33:12. > :33:21.is some light at the end of the tunnel. Why it is that light,
:33:21. > :33:26.spotting the incoming train? Unemployment is frozen. Youth
:33:26. > :33:30.employment continues to fall and we are putting in investment in rail
:33:30. > :33:34.services and transport infrastructure, broadband. There
:33:34. > :33:40.are 50,000 more people out of work now than before the recession
:33:40. > :33:46.started and there are 50,000 people who are under employed in Wales. We
:33:46. > :33:50.are far from problem-free. Final word. We need to be ambitious for
:33:50. > :33:56.growing our economy, not just to rely on a European subsidy. I would
:33:56. > :34:02.agree with that. I am not sure if the Scottish viewers have joined us
:34:02. > :34:07.yet. Not yet, they are late, they are getting later, but when they
:34:07. > :34:11.joined as they will be welcome. In fact, I have been told viewers in
:34:11. > :34:17.Scotland have joined us now. They were watching First Minister's
:34:17. > :34:21.Questions. Few have just missed our conversation about Wales, but we
:34:21. > :34:26.are moving on to a conversation about the Bank of England. Mervyn
:34:26. > :34:31.King is making way for his Canadian opposite number, Mark Carney, who
:34:31. > :34:38.is charging more than Mervyn King ever did, and he is getting a
:34:38. > :34:46.housing allowance of �250,000. That is not bad for a European bank.
:34:46. > :34:52.Last year he suggested a great target and has been taking
:34:52. > :34:59.questions from the Treasury committee. He was asked earlier
:34:59. > :35:04.about his comment of growth rather than inflation. The response to
:35:04. > :35:11.remarks that I made and what was read into that remarks that I main
:35:11. > :35:15.suggests an appetite, at least to me, for a proper debate about the
:35:15. > :35:25.monetary policy for England. I know the Chancellor said he welcomed
:35:25. > :35:27.
:35:27. > :35:31.that debate there should be that debate, a relatively short debate,
:35:31. > :35:38.because I do not think that the uncertainty is think anybody's
:35:38. > :35:46.interest. That is the new governor of the Bank of England. He is
:35:46. > :35:51.Canadian. He might sound like an American to you. But you can tell
:35:51. > :35:59.the difference in their accents. Political commentator Max Kaiser is
:35:59. > :36:04.here. What do you make of the new governor? He is doing a job in
:36:04. > :36:09.starting to print money to pay a salary, which is going to be in the
:36:09. > :36:13.millions. But we have to pay for inflation in this country. The eels
:36:13. > :36:19.are moving up and this is the last thing they want to see and there is
:36:19. > :36:25.a problem with inflation in the UK. They say it is 2.7%, but when you
:36:25. > :36:30.add in the costs of food and energy, the scandal of horsemeat, that is
:36:30. > :36:36.an inflation story, substituting cheaper meat because there is an
:36:36. > :36:42.inflation problem and Mark Carney is going to exacerbate that problem.
:36:42. > :36:47.What is this story about milk? hear this anecdotally that there is
:36:47. > :36:53.a problem with watered-down milk and the horse meat story is a big
:36:53. > :36:59.story and that is an inflation story. You are substituting
:36:59. > :37:05.expensive meat with cheap meat. The real inflation in the UK is running
:37:05. > :37:15.at 7% or 8% for the person on the High Street. What do you make of
:37:15. > :37:18.his idea? I am not sure he is going to do it, but he has thought about
:37:18. > :37:23.replacing the 2% inflation target with an economic growth target.
:37:23. > :37:27.This is a lot of central bank trickery. They want to show that
:37:27. > :37:32.the overall GDP is bigger relative to debt and they will allow
:37:32. > :37:40.inflation to creep higher, said they can print higher GDP numbers,
:37:40. > :37:43.so there bond rating will hopefully remain at 888. Mark Carney is a
:37:43. > :37:52.servant of the banks and the banking establishment. The average
:37:52. > :37:57.person in the UK will have higher inflation. We know he is a big fan
:37:57. > :38:02.of the Daily Politics and when he what is this, give him one piece of
:38:02. > :38:07.advice. Tell him what he should do. The he should resign immediately
:38:07. > :38:14.and let markets set interest rates and get back to market capitalism.
:38:14. > :38:24.We do not want a central Politburo into straight Communist setting the
:38:24. > :38:28.interest rates. We will pass that a lot anyway. Let's move to the big
:38:28. > :38:35.story of the day as the Education Secretary Michael Gove is scrapping
:38:35. > :38:38.plans to replace some GCSE exams in England. It comes five months after
:38:38. > :38:41.he announced controversial proposals to introduce a tougher
:38:41. > :38:47.qualification, the English Baccalaureate certificate in
:38:47. > :38:52.English, maths and science in 2015. Labour is calling it a humiliating
:38:52. > :38:57.climbdown. In a statement this morning, this is what the Education
:38:57. > :39:02.Secretary had to save. Last September, which outlined plans for
:39:02. > :39:07.changes to GCSE is designed to address the dumbing-down and loss
:39:07. > :39:10.of rigour in those examinations. We have consulted and there is a
:39:10. > :39:15.consensus the system needs to change, but one of the proposals
:39:15. > :39:20.are put forward was a bridge too far. My idea that we end the
:39:20. > :39:25.competition between exam boards to offer GCSEs in court, academic
:39:25. > :39:32.qualifications and have just one, a new exam in each subject was one of
:39:32. > :39:36.reform to many at this time. The exam regulator, Ofqual, was clear.
:39:37. > :39:40.There were significant risks in trying to both strength and
:39:40. > :39:46.qualifications and to end competition in large parts of the
:39:46. > :39:52.exams market. I will not proceed with plans to have a single exam
:39:52. > :39:55.board offering a new examine each academic subject. Instead, we will
:39:55. > :40:00.concentrate on reforming existing GCSEs broadly along the lines we
:40:00. > :40:05.put forward in September. That was Michael Gove in the Commons not so
:40:05. > :40:11.long ago. We are joined by Kevin Gage, a former schools minister,
:40:11. > :40:17.and Kevin Brennan, who has just hot-footed it from the Commons. As
:40:17. > :40:23.I understand it, the Government line and is that we have backed
:40:23. > :40:33.down on wood into a Baccalaureate. But actually the substance of the
:40:33. > :40:34.
:40:34. > :40:39.change, it is broadly the same. Is that what you are claiming? Sort of.
:40:39. > :40:43.There will no longer be one exam board for each subject. That has
:40:43. > :40:47.been dropped. That is when he said he listened and he said he was
:40:47. > :40:52.wrong to propose that. He listened to Ofqual and the select committee
:40:52. > :40:56.and teachers and unions. But the rigour and the demand to make sure
:40:56. > :41:01.our GCSE qualifications are on a par with the rest in the world,
:41:01. > :41:06.that they are examined at the end of the cause in most subjects, that
:41:06. > :41:11.modules are abandoned, that we get rid of this resit culture, far too
:41:11. > :41:17.many exams, that will go, and the curriculum will be more rigorous.
:41:17. > :41:19.It will be knowledge-based to insure school leavers have a rich,
:41:19. > :41:27.cultural and scientific literacy when they go on to further study
:41:27. > :41:32.and work. What do you make of that? If this is eight-week, I would like
:41:32. > :41:37.to see a U-turn! This is a massive change. Michael Gove has dropped
:41:37. > :41:42.this proposal which we said all along was a disastrous proposal for
:41:42. > :41:46.this Baccalaureate certificate and he is keeping GCSEs. In fact, some
:41:46. > :41:50.of the other changes will get rid of the English Baccalaureate idea
:41:50. > :41:59.altogether because no longer will that be the accountability measure
:41:59. > :42:01.for schools. That opens up the creative side. It will be
:42:01. > :42:05.incorporated into the accountability measure and it will
:42:05. > :42:10.be the best of eight and of that eight two have to be English and
:42:10. > :42:14.maths. It is a very important measure in this Baccalaureate
:42:14. > :42:20.combination of maths, English, science, history. The combination
:42:20. > :42:24.is going to be called the English Baccalaureate? Yes, indeed. He is
:42:24. > :42:29.shaking his head. I went to the Department this morning and was
:42:29. > :42:33.presented with documents and his stake and given five minutes'
:42:33. > :42:41.notice. The change originally was to move to a Baccalaureate style
:42:41. > :42:45.exam, but we already have something called the English Baccalaureate,
:42:45. > :42:51.and correct me if I am wrong, this is not an exam in English, this is
:42:51. > :42:57.a combination of Baccalaureate tight exams for England. That is
:42:57. > :43:03.correct. It is a performance measure in the tables.
:43:03. > :43:10.Understanding the exams these days is more difficult than doing them!
:43:10. > :43:17.In 1996, half of the students took this combination. Or they took
:43:17. > :43:22.hires. By the time we came into office in 2010, it had fallen to a
:43:22. > :43:26.5th. We have got to get back to youngsters taking this academic
:43:26. > :43:33.range of subjects, the subject at the Russell group of universities
:43:33. > :43:38.said... The top universities in the country. That is right. Michael
:43:38. > :43:43.Gove have dreamt this up on the back of a cigarette packet. I was
:43:43. > :43:48.told it was an envelope. I am not sure how big the envelope was, but
:43:48. > :43:56.I think you are wrong. There was the leak to the Daily Mail last
:43:56. > :44:00.year that we were going to have O- levels and GCSEs. What the
:44:00. > :44:06.Government is trying to address is the competition between the exam
:44:06. > :44:11.boards. Over the years it has resulted in grade inflation. Ofqual
:44:11. > :44:15.says that has happened. There have to be other measures and Ofqual
:44:15. > :44:19.will have to make sure an exam boards will have to look to
:44:19. > :44:24.themselves to ensure they are not competing for market share among
:44:24. > :44:34.schools on the basis of, you will get a good grade if you come to our
:44:34. > :44:34.
:44:35. > :44:39.exam board. The exam boards will not compete for the market share.
:44:39. > :44:44.Grades will go down. Let me ask you this question. Clearly you are
:44:45. > :44:49.going to have great fun at Michael Gove's expense. I want to come back
:44:50. > :44:54.to the serious issue which is do you support the beefing up of
:44:55. > :45:00.GCSEs? It is a serious issue and Michael Gove was tried to laugh it
:45:00. > :45:04.off and he is causing mayhem, so it is a serious issue. We want to work
:45:04. > :45:10.with the Government if they remained the Government and to get
:45:10. > :45:17.a consensus about the right kind of conform -- reform for exams at 16.
:45:17. > :45:21.We have got a participation aged up to the age of 18. Does Labour
:45:21. > :45:26.Stanford tougher GCSEs? We stand for rigour and high standards, yes,
:45:26. > :45:31.absolutely, but in the longer term we need to look at the evidence of
:45:31. > :45:41.what is the best kind of reform. In Wales they have taken similar
:45:41. > :45:48.
:45:48. > :45:52.England's now coming back into line with Wales, is that right? Wales
:45:52. > :45:57.has had the Welsh Baccalaureate for a decade now running alongside
:45:57. > :46:01.GCSEs. That's an A-level qualification. Ah, right. We have
:46:01. > :46:06.had a Baccalaureate for a decade. If you lot don't know how are the
:46:06. > :46:09.rest of us supposed to know! I know. You know. It's been in place for a
:46:09. > :46:12.decade. This is not news for us in Wales. Is it true really that you
:46:12. > :46:17.had to drop the idea of doing a Baccalaureate because it's highly
:46:17. > :46:20.unlikely most people could have spelled it? Well, spelling is now
:46:20. > :46:26.restored as an important element of most of the GCSEs. They wouldn't
:46:26. > :46:31.have been able to spell it. Would you like to have a go?! Only joking.
:46:31. > :46:40.Let's not do that. We are going to let you go, but thank you for
:46:40. > :46:43.coming in today. We are going to stick with education.
:46:43. > :46:45.Because if England's record is bad, could Wales's be even worse? Last
:46:45. > :46:48.week, the Welsh education watchdog, Estyn, revealed that fewer schools
:46:48. > :46:51.had achieved good or excellent inspections compared with the year
:46:51. > :46:54.before. And on health - another devolved power - the First Minister,
:46:54. > :47:04.Carwyn Jones, said this week that the health service in Wales will
:47:04. > :47:07.
:47:07. > :47:17.collapse unless hospitals are reorganised. So has devolution been
:47:17. > :47:23.
:47:23. > :47:28.good or bad for Wales? We sent Susana there to take a look.
:47:28. > :47:33.It's one of the oldest towns in Wales, and it celebrates its
:47:33. > :47:37.history. It gives pride of place to a local doctor, William Price who
:47:37. > :47:41.defied English rules and this is a nation that has been free to go its
:47:41. > :47:45.own way from England on issues like health and education ever since
:47:45. > :47:49.devolution 14 years ago. But if you live here in Wales your
:47:49. > :47:53.health is likely to be worse than if you lived over the border in
:47:53. > :48:00.England. As are your exam results. This is where many of the local
:48:00. > :48:03.children go. One of Welsh education's success stories.
:48:03. > :48:08.These maths GCSE pupils are in a school that's been classed as
:48:08. > :48:12.excellent but nationally, Welsh results have been on the decline.
:48:12. > :48:17.In 2002, over 57% of children in England got A-C grades at GCSE,
:48:17. > :48:23.compared with a higher level of around 59% in Wales. But then the
:48:23. > :48:28.tables turned. By 2011, England had almost 70% A-C grades, while Wales
:48:28. > :48:34.was on 66.0%. During that period, the Welsh Government cut school
:48:34. > :48:39.funding. In 2010-11 that gap was around �600 per pupil, per year.
:48:39. > :48:42.That's for me, as a head teacher of a school this size equates to half
:48:42. > :48:46.a million per year I could be spending on pupils. The Welsh
:48:46. > :48:52.Government has long been opposed to testing children. But now it's
:48:52. > :48:55.planning to bring in numeracy and literacy tests for 7-14-year-olds.
:48:55. > :48:58.The politician in charge of education says that's not an
:48:58. > :49:02.acceptance devolution has been bad for Welsh education. There was a
:49:02. > :49:06.period when we didn't focus strongly enough on overall school
:49:06. > :49:09.improvement and what I have been trying to do since I became
:49:09. > :49:13.Minister during the coalition Government is introduce that real
:49:13. > :49:17.focus on school improvement so we are looking, for example, we banded
:49:17. > :49:21.secondary schools so we know which are the strong performers. There
:49:21. > :49:25.then's health. Life expectancy is lower in Wales than in England but
:49:25. > :49:28.can that be pinned on devolution? We are on top of most of the league
:49:28. > :49:34.tables, you don't want to be on top of in terms of public health
:49:34. > :49:39.problems and that pre-dates devolution. There's no doubt. To
:49:39. > :49:42.blame devolution for that simply seems rather bizarre and churlish.
:49:42. > :49:47.But I meet someone who's campaigned against more devolution here, she
:49:47. > :49:52.says it's led to gimmicks instead of better health provision. Free
:49:52. > :50:00.prescriptions and free car parking, which obviously people love, but it
:50:00. > :50:06.means that there's less money spent on care, or other fundamental
:50:06. > :50:10.aspects of the health service that are falling behind care in England.
:50:10. > :50:17.But is that down to devolution itself? Or could it just be about
:50:17. > :50:23.what those in charge choose to focus on?
:50:23. > :50:27.Leanne Wood is still with us and Nick Gibb. Why is Wales doing badly
:50:27. > :50:32.in schools and health? Well, if we take education first. It depends
:50:32. > :50:38.which part of the education system that you look at. So, pupils up to
:50:38. > :50:43.the age of 11 seem to be faring OK. We have introduced the foundation
:50:43. > :50:48.phase in Wales for pupils up to age seven, that's an idea taken from
:50:48. > :50:54.Finland which has been shown to be a success. But it's beyond 11 that
:50:54. > :50:57.the gap opens up between pupils in Wales and England. Is that because
:50:57. > :51:01.you took none of the reforms of England? I don't think that's the
:51:01. > :51:06.reason. You are against all the English reforms, aren't you? All of
:51:06. > :51:12.them? Which ones are you in favour of? We have taken a different route
:51:13. > :51:16.in Wales. Your route has been no reform. It there has been reform,
:51:16. > :51:20.we have introduced the foundation phase. You don't have academies.
:51:20. > :51:24.That's correct. You don't have free schools, you don't have testing.
:51:24. > :51:30.You don't have league tables. That's right. So what bit of the
:51:30. > :51:34.the English reforms do you have do you have? None of those! There are
:51:34. > :51:39.some very good things about the Welsh education system. But I think
:51:39. > :51:44.because the effort has gone into the foundation phase, maybe the eye
:51:44. > :51:51.has been taken off the ball tprr the 11-Plus. Grades in Wales are
:51:51. > :51:55.falling. Yes, we need to do better. I guess my point is that a lot of
:51:55. > :51:59.people, and I will come to Nick in a minute, they say they're falling
:51:59. > :52:04.- Blairites may say this privately as well as Conservatives, they're
:52:04. > :52:08.falling because under old Labour, old Welsh Labour you refused to go
:52:08. > :52:15.down any of the reform routes that seems to have improved schools in
:52:15. > :52:19.England. But Plaid Cymru, you're old, old Labour. I wouldn't accept
:52:19. > :52:21.that. Well, you are against all these things. That doesn't
:52:21. > :52:26.necessarily - what's good for England doesn't necessarily mean it
:52:27. > :52:30.will work in Wales. It is because the gap is widening. There does
:52:30. > :52:34.need to be attention on post-11 education, no doubt about that. The
:52:34. > :52:38.results that we have had have shown we are lagging behind, no doubt
:52:38. > :52:46.that we are not doing as well as we could and more more effort needs to
:52:46. > :52:50.go into pupils 11-16. What do you say. The mistake was in 2004 when
:52:50. > :52:54.Wales abolished Sats at the end of primary school. That's tests to get
:52:55. > :52:58.an across the board of a particular age group to assess where they are.
:52:58. > :53:03.Yes, every child in this country is tested at 11 on English and maths.
:53:03. > :53:06.You mean England? And And in Wales they abolished that in 2004. I
:53:06. > :53:09.don't accept there aren't problems in primary school, as well. The
:53:09. > :53:13.Welsh inspectorate said that half of all primary schools and
:53:13. > :53:21.secondary schools had to do better when it came to literacy. And if
:53:21. > :53:24.you look at the GCSE results, in 2001 they abolished league tables
:53:25. > :53:29.and academics attributes the widening gap in GCSE performance to
:53:29. > :53:33.the fact that they don't publish the GCSE results in Welsh schools.
:53:33. > :53:40.It is an important factor in driving up standards. Do you
:53:40. > :53:43.support support hrfps. They don't publish results? You can't compare
:53:43. > :53:47.one school with another to see how they're doing. That's an important
:53:48. > :53:51.part of accountability. This is being looked at now in Wales. There
:53:51. > :53:55.are kind of - league tables being published. They're not exactly the
:53:55. > :53:57.same. That's banding systems. Too broad, you need lots of information
:53:57. > :54:03.for parents to look at. That's how you raise standards. That's why
:54:03. > :54:09.this gap is widening and why Wales is falling down. Does Wales have a
:54:09. > :54:13.Russell Group university? Yes, Cardiff. That's the only one?
:54:13. > :54:16.Well, I am not sure if that's a fact or not. There's other factors.
:54:16. > :54:20.That's not great, is it. Despite all the constraints on public
:54:20. > :54:25.spending we have ring-fenced school spending, we have increasing
:54:25. > :54:29.spending on health in - and that's a decision that Labour opposes here.
:54:29. > :54:35.They're delivering that in Wales and we have seen the results.
:54:35. > :54:39.have one more item, people are waiting, I apologise. I let it go
:54:39. > :54:46.on too long. Scotland has four Russell Group universities, I
:54:46. > :54:48.thought I would add that in. So, it was the hottest ticket in
:54:48. > :54:51.Westminster last night but guess what? Once again, my invitation
:54:51. > :54:54.seems to have got lost in the dreaded BBC post system. I'm
:54:54. > :55:00.talking, of course, about the hotly contested Political Book of the
:55:00. > :55:02.Year Awards - which had so pretty high profile nominees.
:55:02. > :55:05.Alastair Campbell has published another volume political diaries -
:55:05. > :55:11.this time starting with 9/11 and focusing on the build-up to the
:55:11. > :55:13.Iraq war. Andrew Adonis, the man behind Tony
:55:13. > :55:19.Blair's education reforms, has written on, you guessed it,
:55:19. > :55:23.education, education, education! Our very own Andrew Marr has
:55:23. > :55:32.written a book to accompany his TV series charting the history of the
:55:32. > :55:41.world. Now how did Nick Robinson sneak in
:55:42. > :55:44.there? Must have been an administrative error! Anyway, his
:55:45. > :55:48.book looks at life reporting on the frontline of British Politics -
:55:48. > :55:50.something I would obviously know little about.
:55:50. > :55:57.Daron Acemoglu and James Robinson were nominated for their book on
:55:57. > :56:00.Why Nations Fail. And, finally the Politics of
:56:00. > :56:09.Coalition by Robert Hazell and Ben Yong looks at the unlikely love in
:56:09. > :56:13.between the Tories and the Lib Dems. But we at the Daily Politics only
:56:13. > :56:16.deal with winners on this programme. And here she is - Caroline Shenton
:56:16. > :56:21.who "blew up" the competition with her book The Day Parliament Burned
:56:21. > :56:25.Down. I'm also joined by MP Keith Simpson
:56:25. > :56:29.who is also chairman of the judges who awarded the prize. Welcome to
:56:29. > :56:33.you both. Congratulations. You are doing a bit of advertising, not
:56:33. > :56:38.sure we allow that at the BBC, but too late to stop it! Well done to
:56:38. > :56:43.you. Why did she win? Because she was best, I mean, it was...
:56:43. > :56:47.worked that bit out! There was other good books there, but what we
:56:47. > :56:55.all collectively concluded and there was to disagreement, was that
:56:55. > :56:59.it was a fascinating subject. It was more than just the fire. It had
:56:59. > :57:02.contemp contempanous elements and it was readable. And it was at the
:57:02. > :57:07.time an incredible national disaster. I am told you could from
:57:07. > :57:11.the South Downs you could see this flame. The King and Queen saw it in
:57:11. > :57:15.Windsor and I assume the old buildings were stunning. They were
:57:16. > :57:22.amazing but very degraded by 1834. They had been a fantastic site of
:57:22. > :57:26.Europe in the middle ages and early modern period but they had become
:57:26. > :57:32.completely a mess, a tinderbox waiting to go up. Would they have
:57:32. > :57:38.had to go at some time? I think the way the architecture was going they
:57:38. > :57:41.could have been done over. great Westminster Hall survived.
:57:41. > :57:45.That survived. I love walking through that, with the wonderful
:57:45. > :57:49.roof. It survived after a terrific effort by volunteers and firemen
:57:49. > :57:55.and the arrival of the great floating engine coming up the river
:57:55. > :57:59.when the tide rose and shot water over the eastern flank of the
:58:00. > :58:04.Palace. You have written academic works before but this is more
:58:04. > :58:08.popular, did you enjoy writing for a wide eb epber audience - wider
:58:08. > :58:11.audience. I loved it. What was the number two? I can't tell you, that
:58:11. > :58:17.would be unfair but it would be safe to say that he did serve in
:58:17. > :58:27.the last Labour Government. Good, well done, Andrew, you were
:58:27. > :58:31.
:58:31. > :58:38.second. Time to find out the answer to our quiz. Which cheese was it? I
:58:38. > :58:46.have no idea. I am hoping somebody will tell me. It was Wensleydale.
:58:46. > :58:49.Thank you. You didn't know that, did you. That's all for today.
:58:49. > :58:52.Thanks to our guests. The 1.00pm news is starting over on BBC 1 now.
:58:52. > :58:55.I am back tonight when Michael Portillo will talk about the