:00:45. > :00:49.Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Liberal Democrat
:00:49. > :00:52.officials meet police officers to discuss allegation of the sexual
:00:52. > :00:58.harassment of women, made against former Chief Executive Lord Rennard,
:00:58. > :01:02.he will have the latest. A comedian and disgraced former Prime Minister
:01:02. > :01:07.win voters' approval in Italy's general election, it is no joke for
:01:08. > :01:12.the euro as it bridges political instability. What lessons can the
:01:12. > :01:20.Conservatives learn from Mitt Romney's defeat in the US
:01:20. > :01:25.Presidential election? We will have David Frum. Don't hold back, London
:01:25. > :01:29.Assembly members fail in their attempt to block Boris's budget for
:01:29. > :01:35.the capital. Birmingham voepbts big budget cut, but what will it mean
:01:35. > :01:41.for local services? -- votes for. All that in the next hour, with us
:01:41. > :01:43.for the whole programme today, is the pensions and investment expert
:01:43. > :01:47.Ros Altmann. Welcome to the programme. Let us start with the
:01:47. > :01:49.continuing problems facing the Liberal Democrats, following
:01:49. > :01:53.allegations that former Liberal Democrat Chief Executive Lord
:01:53. > :01:58.Rennard had sexual harassmented women who worked for the party. He
:01:58. > :02:02.has denied the allegation, Nick Clegg said the morning he wouldn't
:02:02. > :02:06.provide a running commentary on the investigation, but the Business
:02:06. > :02:09.Secretary Vince Cable did at least give a walking comment on his way
:02:09. > :02:13.to work this morning. REPORTER: How do you feel that Nick
:02:13. > :02:18.Clegg has handled the situation. am just going to the cab and I am
:02:18. > :02:22.focused on that. Did you feel annoyed he was putting out the
:02:22. > :02:26.allegation and it seemed to change. I am not going to add to what I
:02:26. > :02:31.said. I was comfortable with that. You didn't know about the
:02:31. > :02:35.allegations? I have nothing to say about that. Are you worried it
:02:35. > :02:38.might affect the Eastleigh by- election? I am working hard in the
:02:38. > :02:44.by-election as all my colleagues are. We have a very good local
:02:44. > :02:47.campaign, I am not worried about that. Let us go to our political
:02:47. > :02:52.correspondent Vicky Young. Liberal Democrat MPs are meeting this
:02:52. > :02:57.afternoon, they do that regularly, but is the party in crisis? It has
:02:57. > :03:01.been an appalling few weeks not just with Chris Huhne pleading
:03:01. > :03:04.guilty, and the accusations that Chris Rennard of course deny, so I
:03:04. > :03:08.don't think any of them are pretending this is an easy time.
:03:08. > :03:12.The problem is it is the handling by Nick Clegg originally of the
:03:12. > :03:16.original complaint, did he handle those properly? Did the staff round
:03:16. > :03:20.him handle them properly? They are the questions he will have to
:03:20. > :03:24.answer. The way he seemed to change his story about initially not
:03:24. > :03:28.knowing, then saying there were general concern, with the party
:03:28. > :03:32.they are trying to focus on the two investigations they set up. They
:03:32. > :03:36.say that is the only way to get to the truth of this. They accept
:03:36. > :03:42.there is a big question about from seedures in the party, particularly
:03:42. > :03:46.for those who are activists who aren't necessarily ep employed, how
:03:46. > :03:50.do they speak out? That is what they will focus on and try to
:03:50. > :03:54.improve. Liberal Democrats on this programme have said that this is
:03:54. > :03:58.the story that Westminster is obsessed with. There is no doubt
:03:58. > :04:02.there has been an enormous amount of interest in it, relating to a
:04:02. > :04:06.man the public won't have herd of. There is a by-election on Thursday.
:04:06. > :04:10.Yes, people in the party aren't blaming the newspapers or saying it
:04:10. > :04:14.is politically motivated. They think it's a serious issue, they
:04:14. > :04:16.know a lot of the front pages are continuing because there is this
:04:16. > :04:20.crucial by-election in Eastleigh where the Liberal Democrats are
:04:20. > :04:24.still, according to the polls in front of the Conservatives. They
:04:24. > :04:29.say they are focusing on still of course trying to win that crucial
:04:29. > :04:32.seat, I have been told today they have about 200 volunteers helping
:04:32. > :04:36.out. Half the Parliamentary party are down there, they have cancelled
:04:37. > :04:41.their meeting this after noon, because so many are down in
:04:41. > :04:45.Eastleigh there is no point in holding it. Their focus will be on
:04:45. > :04:49.trying to win ta by-election. They hope if they can pull it off, the
:04:49. > :04:52.attention will fall back on David Cameron and why he hasn't been able
:04:52. > :04:58.to win that by-election, given that the circumstances have been
:04:58. > :05:02.appalling for the Liberal Democrats. Ros Altmann, what is your
:05:02. > :05:05.impression? Well, it is an unfortunate story and the timing is
:05:05. > :05:11.dreadful. I can't help feeling there must be some political
:05:11. > :05:15.motivation behind the timing of the allegations, which have only just
:05:15. > :05:19.surfaced now, whereas the incident happened so many years ago.
:05:19. > :05:23.Allegedly. Allegedly. There is a lot of talk about structures in
:05:23. > :05:26.organisation, one of the resluice look at whether the right
:05:26. > :05:31.structures were in place, in Liberal Democrat organisation, to
:05:31. > :05:35.teal with complaints like this, that is an issue that would affect
:05:35. > :05:39.most organisations, in your experience do organisations have
:05:39. > :05:43.proper struck churs this place to deal with it? There are many who
:05:43. > :05:48.don't really take the issue of this kind of sexual harassment seriously
:05:49. > :05:53.enough. It is improving and it has improved over the years, but there
:05:53. > :05:58.is this difficulty and this fine line between what is acceptable and
:05:58. > :06:03.what is not. If a chap is touchy- feely and puts his around you is
:06:03. > :06:08.that acceptable? Most people would say it is fine. If it goes beyond
:06:08. > :06:18.that, how do women really deal with that, and how do organisations deal
:06:18. > :06:23.with helping women to, if you like, rein in wandering hands. Many men
:06:23. > :06:26.treat it as a joke. One doesn't want to take it out of proportion,
:06:26. > :06:30.it is clear there was something inappropriate going on, it is also
:06:30. > :06:35.clear it wasn't taken seriously enough. We are not clear of course,
:06:35. > :06:39.these are allegation, and they have been strenuously denied, but as you
:06:39. > :06:42.say, it is difficult, sometimes to know how to deal with them, we will
:06:42. > :06:46.be following this story for the rest of the week. The voters of
:06:46. > :06:51.Italy have spoken, but it may be a while until we can interpret what
:06:51. > :06:55.they have said. The origins of the current political battle in Italy
:06:55. > :06:59.go back to November 2011 when Italy's former premier Silvio
:06:59. > :07:04.Berlusconi was forced to resign Taff country's borrowing costs
:07:04. > :07:09.rocketed out of control. Berlusconi blamed a conspiracy by Germany for
:07:09. > :07:12.his downfall. In his place the President appointed Mario Monti, to
:07:12. > :07:17.head a technocratic Government. However, Mr Berlusconi got his
:07:17. > :07:20.revenge at the end of last year, when he withdrew Parliamentary
:07:20. > :07:26.support for Mario Monti's administration, sparking this
:07:26. > :07:29.week's election. But the results emerging today threaten it --
:07:29. > :07:34.Italy's and with it Europe's economic stable. No party is
:07:34. > :07:38.clearfully a position to run the country. Mario Monti's party
:07:38. > :07:43.suffered a disastrous defeat only polling 10%. The Democratic Party
:07:43. > :07:49.led by former Communist Pier Luigi Bersani have won the election in
:07:49. > :07:53.the lower House, but Italy iest's constitution guarantees them a
:07:53. > :07:57.majority there Berlusconi's party did better in the Senate where the
:07:57. > :08:01.result means a hung parment. The joker in the pack has been Beppe
:08:01. > :08:06.Grillo, a comedian whose 5 Star Movement received a quarter of the
:08:06. > :08:13.vote, with policies promising tax cut, free internet and a 20 hour
:08:13. > :08:23.working week. With us now are two expatriate observers of Italy's
:08:23. > :08:25.
:08:25. > :08:31.political scene. Welcome to both of you. Do you agree with word on the
:08:31. > :08:37.street if itly it is a country that is ungovnernable? Yes, I would say
:08:37. > :08:42.it is, and it is disappointing, that there is no clear majority
:08:42. > :08:46.there. Are you surprised? surprised. I mean, I think, the in
:08:46. > :08:51.the run up to the election, I think the feelings were slightly
:08:51. > :08:55.different, but I think it is clearly disappointing that there is
:08:55. > :09:00.no clear majority and of course, markets do want a clear majority,
:09:00. > :09:07.the economy need a clear imaginety, it is important to have a stable
:09:07. > :09:12.Government. Now, of course, from my personal opinion, I would have very
:09:12. > :09:16.much liked Pier Luigi Bersani to get a clear majority. Who would you
:09:16. > :09:20.like to have seen lead a coalition and be Prime Minister. I have been
:09:20. > :09:24.for a decade with the Labour parties in Europe. I would have
:09:24. > :09:28.liked Pier Luigi Bersani to have a more stable and clear majority, in
:09:28. > :09:31.which actually, in the lower chamber this did happen, and I
:09:31. > :09:36.think the main point here, is really, and it is important for
:09:36. > :09:42.those who are listening to us, to understand this, the electoral
:09:42. > :09:46.system is very complicated, and it is a legacy of the Berlusconi
:09:46. > :09:50.Government, and a legacy of Berlusconi who introduced a
:09:50. > :09:54.complicated electoral system to make sure he secured the place in
:09:54. > :09:58.power. Before we talk about the economic impact we can go to Rome
:09:58. > :10:03.and speak to Chris Morris. Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:10:03. > :10:09.You are on the streets with people who have just voted. It is a bit of
:10:09. > :10:14.as me, isn't it? --s me. It is a extraordinary result. You have a
:10:14. > :10:18.movement that no-one really heard of four years ago, which has taken
:10:18. > :10:23.the highest number of votes of any single party. It sun precedented.
:10:23. > :10:27.We have seen across Europe in the last few years, in France people
:10:27. > :10:32.voting against austerity. In Greece voting against austerity. Again in
:10:32. > :10:37.a more dramatic way, I think, a clear majority of voters rejected
:10:37. > :10:41.the kind of austerity which people perceive as being imposed from
:10:41. > :10:47.Brussels. They rejected the old political class by voting in huge
:10:47. > :10:52.numbers for this insurgent movement who is led by a stand up comedian
:10:52. > :10:56.who is saying the politicians should be sent to the lunatic
:10:56. > :11:01.asylum. It is a humiliating defeat for Mario Monti who was brought in
:11:01. > :11:06.to try and stabilise things in Italy. Yes, I mean he barely
:11:06. > :11:10.scraped 10% of the vote. This was the man, in effect, imposed on
:11:10. > :11:16.Italy by a combination of Brussels and Berlin in 2011, the
:11:16. > :11:20.technocratic Prime Minister, who was sent in to sort out the Italian
:11:20. > :11:25.economy, it wasn't popular, then I think he made a mistake, he decided
:11:25. > :11:28.to run in the elections, he was a university Professor, a European
:11:28. > :11:32.Commissioner and during the election campaign, veteran
:11:33. > :11:38.campaigners like Silvio Berlusconi ran rings round him. I think his
:11:38. > :11:43.gamble, if you like, to triand put himself into the middle of Italian
:11:43. > :11:49.politics has failed. Is there a chance that Silvio Berlusconi could
:11:49. > :11:53.return as Prime Minister? At the moment n the current snartkwhree is
:11:54. > :12:00.very unlikely, if there was another election, who knows? He did better
:12:00. > :12:05.than many outsiders were expecting. We have three scenarios, one there
:12:05. > :12:10.is another election. It is possible the 5 Star Movement could do better
:12:10. > :12:14.next time. The second would have to be Beppe Grillo changing course and
:12:14. > :12:19.agrees to work with the coalition, that seems unlikely, the third
:12:19. > :12:22.option would be a grand coalition between left and right. Something
:12:22. > :12:25.that has never happened before. If that were the case it would be led
:12:25. > :12:30.by the centre-left with Silvio Berlusconi playing a role. From
:12:31. > :12:38.this set of results it means his political career is alive but he
:12:38. > :12:43.won't be Prime Minister any time soon. What is your' sesment now?
:12:43. > :12:47.Has Italians have they rejected austerity, is that what this is
:12:47. > :12:52.about? I think the election of, I mean the support for Beppe Grillo
:12:52. > :12:56.is a bit more mixed in terms of interpretation. This is the comic.
:12:56. > :13:02.First of all there was no rejection of the euro as such. If you look at
:13:02. > :13:07.the polls in Italy. Italians tend to support the euro by a majority
:13:07. > :13:10.of seven to three. Seven out of ten Italians support the euro. This was
:13:10. > :13:17.a very big vote against the political class, the establishment.
:13:17. > :13:21.The fact it thatn't been able to rejuvenate it. And the same faces
:13:21. > :13:26.from 20 years ago are still round now. Austerity in a sense
:13:26. > :13:30.accelerated this process, it was, it was much easier for Beppe Grillo
:13:30. > :13:36.to get his message across, because people are clearly feeling the
:13:36. > :13:38.squeeze. But I think that the clear message here, is one for Italian
:13:38. > :13:42.politician, we are fed up of you, that is what they have said. We
:13:42. > :13:48.want some change. What is this going to mean economically? Because
:13:48. > :13:51.the markets will be spooked by this. The eurozone isn't out of the long-
:13:51. > :13:57.term crisis it has been in, and further uncertainty in Italy is
:13:57. > :14:04.just going to make it worse. Indeed. I think the problem here is that
:14:04. > :14:10.markets have been happy until say, a few weeks ago, generally once...
:14:10. > :14:16.He is going to save the euro from collapse. Then it started turning a
:14:16. > :14:20.bit more wary because data showed the recession is still hitting hard.
:14:20. > :14:23.The eurozone periphery and more generally. Is this election a
:14:23. > :14:29.turning point? Is this another one of the moments we have seen time
:14:29. > :14:33.and again where investors, all of a sudden decide that no, we, we have
:14:33. > :14:37.given up on the euro. We don't think this is a process which is
:14:37. > :14:41.going to continue. Will they test the willingness of the European
:14:41. > :14:46.Central Bank to do whatever it takes to save the euro? This is the
:14:46. > :14:49.question in the mind of many investors now. Are we there yet? I
:14:49. > :14:52.don't think so, there is is a lot of uncertain tirblgs people will
:14:52. > :14:56.want to understand how political developments, what political
:14:56. > :15:06.developments we have in Italy and how Brussels responds. It is
:15:06. > :15:10.
:15:10. > :15:15.The big question is to see what Pier Luigi Bersani and the
:15:15. > :15:21.Democratic Party, the question is, what will Pier Luigi Bersani do,
:15:21. > :15:27.and look at the possible scenarios. What are the policies which will
:15:27. > :15:36.get them support? Italy is a country which needs reform. We want
:15:36. > :15:41.every word in Europe a government that makes us pay fair taxes,
:15:41. > :15:50.tackles unemployment, particularly youth unemployment. The question
:15:50. > :15:55.for countries like Italy, Spain, is really how do we do, how do they
:15:55. > :16:02.get their finances in order? And how do they do this in such an
:16:02. > :16:06.unstable situation? This isn't just about Italy, Italy is the catalyst.
:16:06. > :16:11.Markets are saying, lots of European countries have massive
:16:11. > :16:17.problems he. The standard recipe of austerity has been rejected by the
:16:17. > :16:26.electorate. Understandably, it is painful, especially for the middle
:16:26. > :16:30.classes, the majority. Italy has, for a long time, had governments
:16:31. > :16:35.which changed, minority governments which fall, political uncertainty
:16:35. > :16:40.has been a feature of Italy for a long time. Other countries are
:16:40. > :16:42.bound up with in this, in the euro. The problem for Italy is finding
:16:42. > :16:49.someone who will garner enough support to push through those
:16:49. > :16:54.reforms, who will that person be? At the moment, we do not know. It
:16:54. > :16:58.who would you like to see? What Italians have told the politicians
:16:58. > :17:04.is none other people who are in power at the moment. Not this
:17:04. > :17:08.comedian. Beppe Grillo is not even standing in this. Italians have
:17:09. > :17:14.said they would rather have something experienced new faces. If
:17:14. > :17:18.you look at them, many have university degrees, good
:17:18. > :17:26.professional experience. The message was, we do not want any of
:17:26. > :17:32.the old faces to lead Italy in the future. That is the message. Who
:17:32. > :17:36.will emerge out of this? One of the centre-right it will be harder, the
:17:36. > :17:41.party is structured around Silvio Berlusconi. On the centre-left,
:17:41. > :17:46.there are new faces who have emerged, one of them is the Mayor
:17:46. > :17:50.of Florence, who was defeated in the primaries by Pier Luigi Bersani.
:17:50. > :17:56.People are now suggesting he may have a second chance because Pier
:17:56. > :18:01.Luigi Bersani is so weak at the moment. If there is data, looking
:18:01. > :18:10.at the data, the result of the elections, one thing is important
:18:10. > :18:16.to say. In 2000 added, Berlusconi and his party had 48%. 2008. That
:18:17. > :18:23.meant he was able to form a state government. Now, at 18%. It is
:18:23. > :18:28.disappointing Berlusconi is still there. Amazing. As a woman, I can
:18:28. > :18:36.say, it has been difficult... does that say about the Italian
:18:36. > :18:45.electorate, and... He has a significant share of the vote.
:18:45. > :18:55.Beppe Grillo is new into the political landscape. He is anti-
:18:55. > :19:02.establishment. It may well be that, in the current situation now, there
:19:02. > :19:07.has to be some responsibility in saying, what can we do now? Is
:19:07. > :19:13.there the possibility to go on? Will there be a government by next
:19:13. > :19:19.week? Parliament will not convene until mid-March. The question is,
:19:20. > :19:23.will there be a government in a month? The question is really for
:19:23. > :19:31.the sunny macro and those in Parliament to answer. I do not
:19:31. > :19:35.think the Democratic Party will create a college. It would be more
:19:35. > :19:40.so part for Beppe Grillo and his movement, allowing him to play the
:19:40. > :19:46.protest party role and do even better in a year's time. We could
:19:46. > :19:49.have him back on in a month's time, a year's time. Now, what might the
:19:49. > :19:51.British Conservative party learn from the result of last November's
:19:51. > :19:54.US presidential election? The right-wing Republican candidate
:19:54. > :19:56.Mitt Romney lost out, of course, to Barack Obama. There's been much
:19:56. > :19:59.soul-searching in Republican circles about the result. Political
:19:59. > :20:04.commentator and former speechwriter to George W Bush, David Frum, has
:20:04. > :20:12.just written a book about why Mr Romney lost, and I spoke to him a
:20:12. > :20:20.little earlier. So, how did Mitt Romney lose the
:20:20. > :20:24.election? The first false narrative blames technology, the President's
:20:24. > :20:30.team did have better voting technology. The second says that
:20:30. > :20:36.the vote was all about immigration, he didn't do well enough. The
:20:36. > :20:41.largest group of Hispanic and mixed Americans, you would expect them to
:20:41. > :20:47.vote for Democrats. The mystery is that Mitt Romney lost among upper
:20:47. > :20:54.income immigrants and he lacked in middle-class economic message. Why
:20:54. > :20:56.should be typical American family vote for him? Until Republicans to
:20:56. > :21:02.run up middle-class economic messages, they will not be
:21:02. > :21:12.competitive. Is there an identity crisis within the republican party?
:21:12. > :21:13.
:21:13. > :21:17.Not enough of one, it needs more of a crisis. It is better than after
:21:17. > :21:22.2000 and it when there was a mental freeze. Even now, the party is not
:21:22. > :21:28.taking the full measure of what happened. The Republican Party
:21:28. > :21:33.dominated American politics until 1988. Many who run the Republican
:21:33. > :21:41.Party remember that, they are not appreciative that since then, the
:21:41. > :21:51.Republican Party has won the majority of the vote only one time.
:21:51. > :21:53.
:21:53. > :21:59.Is the butter Col -- the Battle of where it stands in difficulty?
:21:59. > :22:03.need better data, better voting lists, use of social media. Some
:22:04. > :22:08.believe they have to change on the immigration issue but that does not
:22:08. > :22:14.address the concerns of middle- class Americans. It is not a
:22:14. > :22:18.surprise it does poorly among lower income most recent immigrants. The
:22:18. > :22:26.surprise it does so poorly among higher income people, who are not
:22:26. > :22:32.married, from professional backgrounds. How to win the middle
:22:33. > :22:36.classes? How do they when back that centre-ground? George Osborne said
:22:36. > :22:46.after Barack Obama won again, voters on both sides of the
:22:46. > :22:53.Atlantic want social liberalism and economic toughness. Times are tough.
:22:53. > :23:00.Our situation is different from Britain. The US is able to borrow
:23:00. > :23:05.money, at 1.5% for 10 years, there is nothing like a debt crisis in
:23:05. > :23:10.the United States. We need to restore economic growth. One way is
:23:10. > :23:16.to have a more stable political system. Our economy would be
:23:16. > :23:25.growing at 2% but for what is happening in Congress where we have
:23:25. > :23:31.had three artificial fiscal crisis. My forget his Republicans need to
:23:31. > :23:37.be culturally modern, environmentally responsible.
:23:37. > :23:44.Culturally modern is a range of issues, it has to do in the
:23:44. > :23:48.American context with having a less extreme view on guns. A message of
:23:48. > :23:54.economic inclusion which does not speak only to people who are in
:23:54. > :24:00.business. Can we learn lessons from what happened to Mitt Romney in
:24:00. > :24:06.terms of providing an inclusive, socially liberal agenda? We have
:24:06. > :24:10.much to learn from British Conservatives. They have accepted
:24:10. > :24:14.the obligation to discover ways to be culturally modern and reflect
:24:14. > :24:19.society. They have had great success with certain types of
:24:19. > :24:26.immigrant groups, those poor likely to be self-employed, professionally
:24:26. > :24:29.educated. We have to come here to learn, not the other way around.
:24:29. > :24:36.what can Conservatives learn from the 2012 US presidential election,
:24:36. > :24:38.if they are to win here in 2015? Joining me now is director of
:24:38. > :24:41.market research company Populus, Rick Nye, formerly of the
:24:41. > :24:47.Conservative Research Department, where he was a key proponent of
:24:47. > :24:50.Tory modernisation. Also here is the Conservative MP Peter Bone.
:24:50. > :24:57.The can the Conservatives learnt anything from the mistakes made by
:24:58. > :25:01.Mitt Romney? To be fair, they have tried to over the last eight years.
:25:02. > :25:11.David Cameron is seen as a more modern, more inclusive type of
:25:11. > :25:18.Conservative, sometimes he maybe goes too far for the taste of some
:25:18. > :25:28.people within his party. Does he go too far for you? I do not think it
:25:28. > :25:28.
:25:28. > :25:33.is really about David Cameron, this argument about modernising... It is
:25:33. > :25:40.superficial. People want to know what the Conservative Party stands
:25:40. > :25:47.for. As long as we have a policy and agenda, we will do fine. What
:25:47. > :25:51.does the Conservative Party stand for? On Europe, we will have a
:25:51. > :25:58.referendum, that is clear blue water between us and the other
:25:58. > :26:03.parties. And social issues? He is governing the party with the Lib
:26:03. > :26:08.Dems. That is the real problem, how do we establish a Conservative
:26:08. > :26:13.philosophy, while governing with the Lib Dems. What is stopping him?
:26:13. > :26:19.You blame the Liberal Democrats, what is he being stopped doing?
:26:19. > :26:24.Human rights, we would have a British Bill of Rights. You would
:26:24. > :26:29.go ahead with proposals on same-sex marriage? That was an aberration
:26:29. > :26:34.which came from I do not know where. Do not see that as culturally
:26:34. > :26:44.modern, the things which are important for a modern party to
:26:44. > :26:49.win? No, absolutely not, centre the cent of backbench ins --
:26:49. > :26:54.backbenchers failed to support the Prime Minister. If we concentrate
:26:54. > :26:58.on that, it is a big mistake. that symbolic of what the
:26:58. > :27:05.Conservative Party in your mind needs to continue doing to
:27:05. > :27:10.modernise and continue to detoxify? Or is it a backward step?
:27:10. > :27:13.difference is deeper than that. The reason why David Cameron doesn't
:27:13. > :27:17.have a majority and relies on the Liberal Democrats is because not
:27:17. > :27:23.enough people saw that the Conservative Party had changed and
:27:23. > :27:31.become culturally modern and sensitive to their needs. Peter
:27:31. > :27:35.thinks it is because there wasn't enough blood and thunder...
:27:35. > :27:40.about being on common ground where most people were, before the last
:27:40. > :27:45.election, if you had promised a referendum, UKIP would have come on
:27:45. > :27:51.board and we would have had a majority. You always talk about
:27:51. > :27:54.centre-ground, you want to be on common ground. You need to capture
:27:55. > :28:01.the middle class which is what David Cameron has done it so well
:28:02. > :28:09.in terms of moving the Tories through this decade. It was clear
:28:09. > :28:16.before that lots of people at the beginning, 2000, 2004, just felt
:28:16. > :28:20.that the Tories were not for them. Tony Blair was an extraordinary
:28:20. > :28:25.politician who moved his party along.
:28:25. > :28:32.David Cannon has captured some of that. Why was he successful? He
:28:32. > :28:36.spoke about what mattered to real people. People who do not wake up
:28:36. > :28:43.in the morning and think, a wonder what this will do with the European
:28:43. > :28:48.Union. They think about the cost of living. Law and order. They wonder
:28:48. > :28:58.whether they have a government on their side. Those are the things
:28:58. > :29:02.David Cameron needs to focus on. Not purity over Europe. Tony Blair
:29:02. > :29:09.stood on things that people cared about. Any politician who wants to
:29:09. > :29:19.win has to stand on those issues. But you didn't win a majority in
:29:19. > :29:25.
:29:25. > :29:31.2010. We listened to back... This is the rubbish... According to what
:29:31. > :29:34.the polls said... This is the great misunderstanding, immigration is
:29:34. > :29:40.the number-one issue because of the European Union. People don't
:29:40. > :29:47.associate it with the European Union. Was David Cameron wrong to
:29:47. > :29:51.offer a referendum and give in to backbenchers? He wanted to stop the
:29:51. > :29:56.conversation from dominating Parliament particularly inside a
:29:56. > :30:02.fractious elements of his party. There is only so much oxygen in the
:30:02. > :30:07.room and if it is taken up with rows over Europe, that is the way
:30:07. > :30:13.to a landslide defeat. It also bought off the UKIP
:30:13. > :30:18.challenge which politically was really clever. It immediately
:30:18. > :30:28.dissipated the support in the way it was growing for UKIP. David
:30:28. > :30:32.
:30:32. > :30:36.It could be pause the Prime Minister believes it is the right
:30:36. > :30:40.thing to do. In terms of winning the next election, that is the key
:30:40. > :30:44.for you, and you disagree on the direction of the Conservative Party.
:30:44. > :30:48.To win the next election he needs f you like, both wings to fly, yes,
:30:48. > :30:53.he needs to address some people who are dissatisfied with the
:30:53. > :30:56.Government's record so for on things such as moving further on
:30:56. > :31:01.benefit, even dealing with immigration, some people are voting
:31:01. > :31:05.UKIP who won't take yes for an answer, trust me on that. He needs
:31:05. > :31:08.the middle classes, there are as many people who voted Liberal
:31:08. > :31:13.Democrat in 2010, that we need voting Conservative who say they
:31:13. > :31:21.would consider voting Conservative in 2015 as Tories have defected to
:31:21. > :31:25.UKIP. Well, I do like the evidence, it is just the way you misinterpret
:31:25. > :31:29.id. What you need is get the UKIP voters back but you need to get the
:31:29. > :31:33.people who didn't vote. That is the key to it. The fact a turn out is
:31:33. > :31:40.so low. Get those back voting Tory and forget the Liberal Democrat,
:31:40. > :31:44.they won't vote for us in 100 years, you are on a different planet.
:31:44. > :31:48.the dif -- different planets we will leave it there. Quantative
:31:48. > :31:53.ease, not perhaps the talk of the dog and duck but a key part of the
:31:53. > :31:58.bank and the attempt to revive the economy. 375 billion has been
:31:58. > :32:03.created by the bank, and used to purchase Government debt. Keep
:32:03. > :32:08.interest rates down, and as a consequence stimulate growth. Has
:32:08. > :32:13.QE been good for us? Has it worked? Perhapss more to the point, what is
:32:13. > :32:16.it? We sent our reporter to find out. Out and about at the Bank of
:32:16. > :32:26.England, today's teaser is, can you say quantitative easing?
:32:26. > :32:28.
:32:28. > :32:33.Quantitative easing. Pardon? Quantitative easing. Quantitative.
:32:33. > :32:39.That is difficult. Quantitative easing. No. Quantitative easing,
:32:39. > :32:44.hard to say, harder to spell. Trust me. It is not to be confused with
:32:44. > :32:49.QE, Queen Liz be. QI, which is quite interesting or the QE 2-2
:32:49. > :32:55.though there as been more than one phase. What is it? Quantitative
:32:55. > :33:01.easing, or QE, is often December -- described as printing money, but
:33:01. > :33:06.that is misleading. QE is lending from the Bank of England, �375
:33:06. > :33:10.billion of new money from the Bank of England has been used to buy
:33:10. > :33:15.Government bonds. What that has done is reduce the interest rate on
:33:15. > :33:19.those Government bonds, and longer term interest rates generally for
:33:19. > :33:24.borrowers. Which has been good from the economy from that point of view
:33:24. > :33:29.but bad for savers. It is not about printing money. But quantitative
:33:29. > :33:32.easing, or QE has made Britain look like a good bet and allowed
:33:32. > :33:38.politicians to paint a positive picture of the handling of the
:33:38. > :33:42.economy of is all as Rosie as it might seem? The problem with QE it
:33:42. > :33:46.lets politician off the Hook. Here in the UK we have a coalition
:33:46. > :33:51.Government. Pretty much hampered then, not much they can do, and
:33:51. > :33:56.there was you have the Bank of England doing all the heavy lifting,
:33:56. > :34:01.all by monetary policy. It is all based on interest rates. It is not
:34:01. > :34:07.based on fiscal policy. Some people think the money could have been
:34:07. > :34:13.used better. One of problems is new money has come are the Bank of
:34:13. > :34:18.England and end up washing round financial markets. You could use it
:34:18. > :34:21.to fund a new invest bank. You could use it to fund the Green
:34:21. > :34:25.Investment Bank to help renew infrastructure. You could also fund
:34:25. > :34:29.housing associations, to start building new homes again, in
:34:29. > :34:33.Germany, the state investment bank there is funding the retrofit, of
:34:33. > :34:41.all the existing home, to bring down energy costs stkpw. A new man
:34:41. > :34:48.will take over at the helm of the Bank of England. Mark Carney, head
:34:48. > :34:51.hunted by George Osborne from the Bank of Canada, is he a QE man?
:34:51. > :34:56.Given the slow progress of the economic recovery, it is on the
:34:56. > :35:01.card we could have more QE. When Mark Carney comes in, it gives the
:35:01. > :35:05.bank an opportunity to review how it is doing QE. He might bring in
:35:05. > :35:09.new ideas from his experience in Canada and seeing what has happened
:35:09. > :35:13.in North America. It is a good opportunity for the bank to start
:35:13. > :35:17.using new tools to try and be more effective in stimulating the
:35:17. > :35:22.economy. It might not trip off the tongue but quantitative easing is a
:35:22. > :35:27.big part of economic life. It might be round for some time to come.
:35:27. > :35:31.Quantitative easing. Says it better than most people in the studio.
:35:31. > :35:36.With me the economist Leigh Caldwell and our guest of the day
:35:36. > :35:40.Ros Altmann. Is it working? There is no growth. Quantitative easing
:35:40. > :35:44.is really the only thing that stood between us and the fate of Spain
:35:44. > :35:48.and Greece. Spain and Greece, Spain particularly was in a similar
:35:48. > :35:53.situation to the UK, three or four years ago, running a Government
:35:53. > :35:58.deaf set of between five and 10% a year, having to bail out bank, they
:35:58. > :36:05.didn't have the option of their own central bank which could print
:36:05. > :36:07.money to help finance that. So the Bank of England has allowed the
:36:07. > :36:11.British Government to continue its deficit spending policy wit has
:36:11. > :36:16.been forced to do keep the economy at least on some kind of even keel,
:36:16. > :36:22.and so we have not had the same rise in unemployment and the same
:36:22. > :36:26.level of collapse in growth than, and indeed negative growth Spain
:36:26. > :36:30.and Greece have had. We would be worse off without it? That That is
:36:30. > :36:34.always the Bank of England's argument. Because it has happened
:36:34. > :36:40.we count prove what would happen if it didn't. We haven't got the way
:36:40. > :36:44.of Spain and Greece. Not short-term, but that is because we have a free
:36:44. > :36:50.currency, that doesn't mean we have solved the problems at all. What QE
:36:50. > :36:56.does is, it creates new money, os sentencibly to ensure that bank
:36:56. > :37:00.lending will support the economy. It hasn't work. You have driven
:37:00. > :37:05.down long-term interest rate, but because of the side effects of QE,
:37:05. > :37:09.which are particular to the UK economy, you have weakened growth
:37:09. > :37:13.in other areas so although you have one foot on the accelerator, you
:37:13. > :37:19.have the other foot on the brake. We have double-dip recession, it is
:37:19. > :37:24.not like the economy has done well. GDP might have retracted again.
:37:24. > :37:28.might have a triple dip recession, I hope not. Inflation has been
:37:28. > :37:32.higher than other area, so I don't think QE has worked at all. What
:37:32. > :37:37.would you have done instead? The point is, would you have done some
:37:37. > :37:42.quantitative easing, would you have had some money being circulated by
:37:42. > :37:47.the Bank of England, and then stopped it, now? Effectively the
:37:47. > :37:54.first round of this printing new money might have been worth trying
:37:54. > :37:57.in 2009. We were clearly heading for a major catastrophe. It is an
:37:57. > :38:01.experiment and maybe that would have worked. The next two rounds
:38:01. > :38:05.were just trying to help the Government finance the fiscal
:38:05. > :38:13.deficit and trying to fool the markets our economyen isn't as bad
:38:13. > :38:19.as it would look. We should be using new money to underpin
:38:19. > :38:22.investment drebgsly. It is mask -- directly. It is masking the true
:38:22. > :38:26.state of the economy and stopping decisions being made to bring us
:38:26. > :38:30.into growth to stimulate the economy. Then we will come on to
:38:30. > :38:33.investment. The Bank of England would argue it is not its job to
:38:33. > :38:37.decide whether to invest in infrastructure or a green bank or
:38:37. > :38:40.these things, the Bank of England's job is to provide the money the
:38:40. > :38:48.economy need and then the Government's job is to decide how
:38:48. > :38:52.to spend that. Now, I would not say that QE is the only thing that
:38:52. > :38:56.should be done, I do personally, I think Government should invest more,
:38:56. > :39:01.that the economy does need to continue its transition from
:39:01. > :39:05.finance and housing based economy of five years ago, to a more
:39:05. > :39:12.broader based economy. Now, and inflation is part of that deficit
:39:12. > :39:18.spending is a part of that. QE is necessary to help that process
:39:18. > :39:22.happen. Yes, there are some negative effects. What would you
:39:22. > :39:27.say to anyone retiring and trying to buy private pension in the last
:39:27. > :39:32.year or so who has lost undoubtedly has lost potential income they will
:39:32. > :39:37.never get back? I sympathise with those people. The value of pension
:39:37. > :39:42.assets, over the last few years has been higher than it would have been
:39:42. > :39:46.without QE so the trade off is a pension fund is larger, the Stock
:39:46. > :39:52.Market has gone up by 50% since 2008, but long-term rates are lower
:39:52. > :39:56.so there is a trade off there. I understand that Ros's viewpoint is
:39:57. > :40:01.about helping the pension, we can't sacrifice the whole economy for
:40:01. > :40:05.that. I think my view is, that what we have done is taken money away
:40:05. > :40:11.from people who don't have big debts and could be spending it, and
:40:11. > :40:16.we frighten them into stoping spending. We have impoverish add
:40:16. > :40:19.group of older people. If you like we have emasculated the grey pound.
:40:19. > :40:23.The inflation rates have been higher for older people. They have
:40:23. > :40:28.cut their spending, so by introduced a policy which is
:40:28. > :40:33.supposed to stimulate growth, you have hurt growth, from those groups
:40:33. > :40:38.of people who could have spend it. Anyone buying an annuity, the value
:40:38. > :40:41.of their pension fund has not gone up more than the fall in the value
:40:41. > :40:46.of the annuities they buy. argument goes without quantitative
:40:46. > :40:50.easing, interest rates may well have gone up. That would have hurt
:40:50. > :40:53.a bigger group of people, surely. We have to differentiate between
:40:53. > :40:58.long and short-term interest rates. What is crucial for the economic
:40:58. > :41:02.position is short rates. Mortgage rates are dependent on short-term
:41:02. > :41:07.interest rates, the fact long rates come down doesn't make much
:41:07. > :41:10.difference to consumer spending. Most key rates depend on short
:41:10. > :41:14.rates, therefore pushing down long term rates has had a negative
:41:14. > :41:19.impact because of the term structure of the private sector UK
:41:19. > :41:24.balance sheet, where pushing down long rates hurts companies
:41:24. > :41:29.sponsoring pension scheme, hurts people buying pensions and has
:41:29. > :41:35.caused a problem for corporate UK as well as the household sector.
:41:35. > :41:41.You have said QE is de-- designed to solve a psych llingical problem,
:41:41. > :41:47.which suggests it is nothing to do with economics The two are closely
:41:47. > :41:54.linked. There is a particular problem called money illusion, the
:41:54. > :41:57.bank aims for a positive rate. If inflation were to fall low tore 0
:41:57. > :42:02.or 1% it would hamper the adjust. Of the economy. People don't want
:42:02. > :42:05.wage cut, they don't want to accept price cuts but inflation allows the
:42:05. > :42:10.economy to be more flexible. Inflation at the moment, of course,
:42:10. > :42:17.is killing people in terms of standard of living. Their wages are
:42:17. > :42:22.worth less, spending how o -- power is worth less. Anything policy that
:42:22. > :42:26.was designed the keep inflation higher is doing to make life more
:42:26. > :42:31.difficult. Remember it is a reflection of people's wages
:42:31. > :42:39.increasing and wages are increasing, probably not quite as fast as cost
:42:39. > :42:46.but they are going up 2%, so the effect on wages is not as high a it
:42:46. > :42:50.is some timeing to -- some sometimes thought to be. With
:42:50. > :42:54.strict financial constraints it is none an easy task to set budgets.
:42:54. > :42:57.We will hear about the decisions that Birmingham is facing. Let us
:42:57. > :43:01.see what happened at the London Assembly yesterday when Labour's
:43:01. > :43:05.members spotted an absent sorry member might mean they could defeat
:43:05. > :43:09.Boris beers budget. To go they had to vote that he should leave the
:43:09. > :43:15.chamber. Perhaps unsurprisingly, that didn't go down too well..
:43:15. > :43:21.that means then, that we then thank the Mayor for his attendance,
:43:21. > :43:26.because the assembly members have decided they have no... They are
:43:26. > :43:32.you saying they are advocating their duty to scrutinise me? Are
:43:32. > :43:35.you saying they haven't got the guts to put questions to me. Great
:43:35. > :43:41.supine protoplasmic invertebrate jellies! That is it. They don't
:43:41. > :43:46.want to ask me questions you have been cheated. Your Labour, your
:43:46. > :43:56.Labour accomplices have failed in their duty. Mr Mayor, Mr Mayor,
:43:56. > :43:58.In the end, the missing Conservative came back in, so Boris
:43:58. > :44:08.got his budget through. This afternoon, it's Birmingham's turn.
:44:08. > :44:12.
:44:12. > :44:14.120 city councillors will meet, to decide on spending for next year.
:44:14. > :44:17.Depending on your political persuasion, it will lead to
:44:17. > :44:20.swingeing multi-million pound cuts, or much-needed multi-million pound
:44:20. > :44:23.savings. So, what will it mean for the million people governed by
:44:23. > :44:30.Europe's largest local authority? Mary Rhodes from Inside Out in the
:44:30. > :44:38.West Midlands has been finding out Here, the government's money
:44:38. > :44:43.problems mean nothing to these young people.
:44:43. > :44:50.I want to give back what they gave me. This Saturday Club in at Selly
:44:50. > :44:55.Oak is only here because of him. Cash run-out, so dale run over.
:44:55. > :45:05.There are a lot of grateful parents. There is very little in this area
:45:05. > :45:06.
:45:06. > :45:10.now. Children with special needs. This is a valuable centre. Dale is
:45:10. > :45:17.keen for a maths lesson, we give him the chance to meet the
:45:17. > :45:25.political power-brokers. This is the scale of the cuts
:45:25. > :45:34.Birmingham City Council has to make, by 2017, they have to save 715 --
:45:34. > :45:39.�600 million. The next year, �100 million. They have to lose �24
:45:39. > :45:44.million from the children and families budget. To put that into
:45:44. > :45:51.context, the amount they have to save, �70 million more than it
:45:51. > :45:57.costs to build the new City Hospital. That is a lot of money.
:45:57. > :46:02.They are cutting quite a large sum from a vulnerable group in society.
:46:02. > :46:12.Birmingham will have to cut services to bridge the �600 million
:46:12. > :46:13.
:46:13. > :46:23.funding gap. Is it fair? In a 2013, we have made sure, unlike other
:46:23. > :46:26.
:46:26. > :46:31.parts of the public sector, we need to be brave, radical and bold.
:46:31. > :46:36.did you make of what eric pickles had to say? He had some very good
:46:36. > :46:42.points. We need to make the cuts where we need to but it can be
:46:42. > :46:50.difficult. You can't just get on with life, it will affect a lot of
:46:51. > :46:59.society. It is a balancing act. * Robert bought is the leader of
:46:59. > :47:06.Birmingham city council and controls a �3.5 billion budget --
:47:06. > :47:11.sir Albert Bore. Eric pickles say he wants local government to be big,
:47:11. > :47:16.bold and brave. How were you rise to that challenge? We will do
:47:16. > :47:19.exactly that by looking at the services in the way we are. The
:47:19. > :47:26.people of Birmingham will see what we are spending our money on.
:47:26. > :47:31.Exactly what it is. And take a view which services we should
:47:31. > :47:38.discontinue, and decommission. It is the end of local government as I
:47:38. > :47:44.have known it. It has been an interesting journey.
:47:44. > :47:48.They have accepted cuts have to come in but have reassured me they
:47:48. > :47:53.will be hopeful about the cuts and think about society as a whole when
:47:53. > :47:58.making these decisions when cutting services. I am more positive. All
:47:58. > :48:02.we can do is wait for them. We joining me now to discuss what
:48:02. > :48:05.that might mean for the rest of the country is Brandon Lewis, the
:48:05. > :48:10.Conservative local government minister. And our guest of the day,
:48:10. > :48:17.Ros Altmann, is still with us. Are you happy that they have said,
:48:17. > :48:21.to balance the books, it is the end of local government as he knows it?
:48:21. > :48:26.Local government has risen to the challenge. They have had big
:48:26. > :48:32.savings to make. It accounts for a quarter of all public spending.
:48:32. > :48:37.There is a challenge, local government is moving forward to a
:48:37. > :48:43.new future working in a different way with communities. Including
:48:43. > :48:48.cutting Children's Services by �24 million in Birmingham. They have to
:48:48. > :48:53.balance the books. Are you happy they're making �24 million of cuts
:48:53. > :48:58.to Children's Services. They have to look at what they need locally.
:48:58. > :49:04.That is what localism is about. Are they making the right decisions
:49:04. > :49:08.with the assets they have got. Should they be looking at how they
:49:09. > :49:14.maximise income elsewhere which many councils are doing. Councils
:49:14. > :49:20.own millions of pounds of assets. On average, local authorities face
:49:20. > :49:25.an average �61 cut in central government funding per head of
:49:25. > :49:35.population. Even up to one had and �60 per resident, some including
:49:35. > :49:39.
:49:39. > :49:46.the poorest areas in the country. Is that fair? -- �160. You are
:49:46. > :49:51.hitting some of the poorest parts of the country, with �160 per
:49:51. > :49:58.resident per year, higher than the average. I had a debate this
:49:58. > :50:05.morning talking about Knowsley in Liverpool where they have is spent
:50:05. > :50:11.per head of �3,200. Constituencies like mind and, in deprived areas,
:50:11. > :50:15.we start from a very different point. The average is still only
:50:15. > :50:20.1.3% change in terms of spending power.
:50:20. > :50:25.My real concern here, looking at the composition of local government
:50:25. > :50:30.spending. We are seeing that spending on children is being cut.
:50:30. > :50:33.One of the big reasons for that is, in huge chunk of local government
:50:33. > :50:40.spending has to go on social care, particularly for increasing numbers
:50:40. > :50:44.of older people, depending on where you are in the country. There are
:50:44. > :50:49.greater proportions of older people. Also, on the local government
:50:49. > :50:55.pension payments. Those two areas are pretty difficult to cut at all
:50:55. > :51:00.if not impossible. So that means you will get other cuts happening
:51:00. > :51:04.elsewhere particularly for children. I do not want to see more of this
:51:04. > :51:08.inter-generational envy. Should one perhaps take the social care budget
:51:08. > :51:14.and pension budget outside the normal local of 30 discretionary
:51:14. > :51:18.spending, so you can make more rounded decisions about what the
:51:18. > :51:23.composition of local services should be. It is a good example,
:51:23. > :51:28.the local government pension scheme, a funded scheme, 89 different
:51:28. > :51:35.schemes in the country. Local government can come together and
:51:35. > :51:38.rationalise that. But york council says sharing services would only
:51:39. > :51:44.save �170,000 which is nothing in terms of the millions that council
:51:44. > :51:53.has to say. If you are demanding those savings from services that,
:51:53. > :52:00.by law, councils have to provide. I disagree with the point, the
:52:00. > :52:06.previous administration was looking at savings of half a million pounds.
:52:06. > :52:11.They are finding about �1 million in a year in savings. In London,
:52:11. > :52:17.looking to save �50 million a year, we shouldn't underestimate by
:52:17. > :52:23.coming together. Anybody in business will say they must be able
:52:24. > :52:33.to find savings. Redefining services that a council bylaw has
:52:34. > :52:34.
:52:34. > :52:39.to provide. A statutory duty to provide. How will they do that?
:52:39. > :52:44.Lancashire is the cutting council tax by 2% this year. There are
:52:44. > :52:51.things local councils can do. number of statutory duties the
:52:51. > :52:56.council has to provide by law. are always looking at what local
:52:56. > :53:00.government provides. It is always under review. Where are you with
:53:00. > :53:10.this review? We have cut quite a lot and looking to cut further.
:53:10. > :53:15.Which services... A lot of it is time and money spent on reporting
:53:15. > :53:20.back to central government. In terms of services, they have the
:53:20. > :53:28.power to decide locally what they deliver. Most importantly, it is
:53:28. > :53:37.about how you spend that money. How you work together. Rather than...
:53:37. > :53:43.Many councils, small authorities, small districts, they are coming
:53:43. > :53:49.together. What should they stop doing? We have published a document
:53:49. > :53:53.to look at sharing management, services, procurement. Take care of
:53:53. > :53:58.the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves.
:53:58. > :54:05.Recommendations take them all the way through from really big savings,
:54:05. > :54:09.through to some of the small things. Is it achievable? If you are a big
:54:09. > :54:14.council providing social adults care, providing for poor parts of
:54:14. > :54:20.the country, it isn't possible to make those sorts of savings? As we
:54:20. > :54:26.guffawed, it will be increasingly impossible for local councils -- as
:54:26. > :54:32.we go forward. Clearly, at the moment, they have cut the amount
:54:32. > :54:38.they are paying people to provide care. They can't cut it any more.
:54:38. > :54:48.We will need to look again at what areas of local authority spending
:54:48. > :54:49.
:54:49. > :54:52.we can use with discretion and can may be financed centrally.
:54:52. > :54:56.Now, for the last few weeks, there's been a dramatic by-election
:54:56. > :55:00.battle going on. The end of the race is on the horizon, and the
:55:00. > :55:03.result will be felt all the way to Westminster. That's right. It's Bob
:55:03. > :55:06.Servant's fictional fight for the Dundee seat of Broughty Ferry,
:55:06. > :55:10.which concludes on BBC 4 this week. Let's have a look at Bob's
:55:10. > :55:16.preparation for the big hustings. Mental preparation! That the game.
:55:17. > :55:24.It all starts with this. Brain food. We should probably go over some
:55:24. > :55:33.policies. Quite the opposite, but at the great debate is, Churchill,
:55:33. > :55:36.Thatcher. They thought on their feet. Is that your plan?
:55:36. > :55:40.We're lucky enough to be joined from Glasgow now by Bob Servant.
:55:40. > :55:45.He's better known, of course, as actor Brian Cox.
:55:45. > :55:51.Any tips for the candidates in the dramatic by-election in Eastleigh,
:55:51. > :55:57.apart from brain food? A I don't think I have many tips
:55:57. > :56:01.for them, just carry on doing the inadequacy they continued to do!
:56:01. > :56:08.How very profound. Tell us why you are so keen for Scottish
:56:08. > :56:12.independence? Well, I just think, I am more keen about English
:56:12. > :56:18.independence as Scottish independence. England will go
:56:18. > :56:26.independent as well. We really have, our political system is failing us
:56:26. > :56:29.daily. And what we get on the news every day. And it may be Scottish
:56:30. > :56:33.independence would be away of shaking these islands up in away
:56:33. > :56:39.they haven't been shaken up for a long time. Do you still live in New
:56:39. > :56:43.York? I spend more time here because I am the rector of Dundee
:56:43. > :56:50.University, my children don't even recognise me in more because I am
:56:50. > :57:00.hardly in New York. So we can't accuse you of hypocrisy. Nabbing
:57:00. > :57:01.
:57:01. > :57:08.macro, I lived in this country -- no. I have never been away, I have
:57:08. > :57:14.always come back. My work has taken me to America, doing movies. We
:57:14. > :57:18.don't have a film industry here. Would today's Brian Cox grown up in
:57:19. > :57:24.Dundee make it to Hollywood? because one of the problems in this
:57:24. > :57:28.country today is there is no social mobility any more, a child like me
:57:28. > :57:33.would not be able to go to drama school because, simply, they would
:57:33. > :57:43.not be able to afford it, to pay back their fees. As a kid, and went
:57:43. > :57:44.
:57:44. > :57:50.to drama school, �11 a week I had, 1961. 1963. I had my grant paid. My
:57:50. > :57:55.mother was a widow. I was taken care of by the Scottish education
:57:55. > :58:02.or authority. We have seen more and more children being marginalised,
:58:02. > :58:08.having to pay back. We have seen a sector of society being ignored.
:58:08. > :58:13.Will there be a rise for more independent candidates? I think so.
:58:13. > :58:18.I am worried about Eastleigh, I am worried about the by-election, what
:58:18. > :58:24.will happen to the Liberal Party. We do need a third force but that
:58:24. > :58:27.has been diminished. I do believe that we don't want to go back to
:58:27. > :58:30.the two party system but, unfortunately, the leader of the
:58:30. > :58:37.Liberal Democrat has shot himself firmly in the foot.
:58:37. > :58:43.We will come back to that on another day. That's all for today.
:58:43. > :58:49.Thanks to our guests. The one o'clock news is starting over on