05/03/2013

:00:42. > :00:43.good afternoon and welcome to the good afternoon and welcome to the

:00:44. > :00:45.Daily Politics. Should the chief Daily Politics. Should the chief

:00:45. > :00:45.Daily Politics. Should the chief Daily Politics. Should the chief

:00:45. > :00:46.executive of the NHS quit over the executive of the NHS quit over the

:00:46. > :00:49.executive of the NHS quit over the failings by Mid Staffordshire trust?

:00:49. > :00:50.failings by Mid Staffordshire trust? Beleaguered health boss David

:00:50. > :00:50.Beleaguered health boss David Beleaguered health boss David

:00:51. > :00:51.Nicholson appeared in front of the Nicholson appeared in front of the

:00:51. > :00:53.Nicholson appeared in front of the health select committee this morning

:00:53. > :00:54.health select committee this morning health select committee this morning

:00:54. > :00:56.to answer questions on where to answer questions on where

:00:56. > :00:57.to answer questions on where responsibility lies. We will have

:00:57. > :00:58.the latest. the latest.

:00:58. > :00:59.the latest. the latest.

:00:59. > :01:00.A new report for the Labour Party A new report for the Labour Party

:01:00. > :01:01.A new report for the Labour Party says British business is too focused

:01:01. > :01:04.says British business is too focused on short-term rewards.

:01:04. > :01:04.on short-term rewards. on short-term rewards.

:01:04. > :01:07.on short-term rewards. Ten years on, how did the Iraq war

:01:07. > :01:09.Ten years on, how did the Iraq war change the world?

:01:09. > :01:10.change the world? change the world?

:01:10. > :01:11.And dramatic scenes from the whip's And dramatic scenes from the whip's

:01:11. > :01:18.And dramatic scenes from the whip's office as a former Labour minister

:01:18. > :01:19.office as a former Labour minister meets her onstage self.

:01:19. > :01:20.meets her onstage self. meets her onstage self.

:01:21. > :01:22.meets her onstage self. All that in the next hour. With us

:01:22. > :01:23.All that in the next hour. With us All that in the next hour. With us

:01:23. > :01:25.for the whole program today is for the whole program today is

:01:25. > :01:25.for the whole program today is Baroness Neuberger. She sits as a

:01:25. > :01:26.Baroness Neuberger. She sits as a Baroness Neuberger. She sits as a

:01:26. > :01:28.crossbench peer in the House of crossbench peer in the House of

:01:28. > :01:29.crossbench peer in the House of Lords, having previously taken the

:01:29. > :01:30.Lords, having previously taken the Lords, having previously taken the

:01:30. > :01:31.Lords, having previously taken the Lib Dem whip until she became senior

:01:31. > :01:34.Lib Dem whip until she became senior Lib Dem whip until she became senior

:01:34. > :01:36.rabbi to the west London Synagogue rabbi to the west London Synagogue

:01:36. > :01:37.rabbi to the west London Synagogue in 2011. First today, health league

:01:37. > :01:38.in 2011. First today, health league in 2011. First today, health league

:01:38. > :01:39.tables published by the Lancet tables published by the Lancet

:01:39. > :01:40.tables published by the Lancet magazine show the UK is lagging

:01:40. > :01:41.magazine show the UK is lagging magazine show the UK is lagging

:01:41. > :01:43.behind similar countries on a range behind similar countries on a range

:01:43. > :01:44.behind similar countries on a range of health indicators. But expect to

:01:44. > :01:46.of health indicators. But expect to of health indicators. But expect to

:01:46. > :01:46.of health indicators. But expect to see has gone up, but people in 21

:01:46. > :01:47.see has gone up, but people in 21 see has gone up, but people in 21

:01:47. > :01:50.other countries live longer and other countries live longer and

:01:50. > :01:51.other countries live longer and healthier lives in Britain is. The

:01:51. > :01:53.healthier lives in Britain is. The report author, Professor John

:01:53. > :01:53.report author, Professor John report author, Professor John

:01:53. > :01:54.report author, Professor John Newton, has said people need to pay

:01:54. > :01:59.Newton, has said people need to pay Newton, has said people need to pay

:01:59. > :01:59.more attention to their lifestyles. more attention to their lifestyles.

:01:59. > :02:01.more attention to their lifestyles. more attention to their lifestyles.

:02:01. > :02:02.There are three areas where we need There are three areas where we need

:02:02. > :02:05.There are three areas where we need There are three areas where we need

:02:06. > :02:06.to look. One is that the Health to look. One is that the Health

:02:06. > :02:11.to look. One is that the Health Authority -- the Health authorities

:02:11. > :02:11.Authority -- the Health authorities Authority -- the Health authorities

:02:11. > :02:13.like the NHS. Then there is like the NHS. Then there is

:02:13. > :02:13.like the NHS. Then there is like the NHS. Then there is

:02:13. > :02:15.ourselves, but in between there is a ourselves, but in between there is a

:02:15. > :02:16.range of organisations, businesses range of organisations, businesses

:02:16. > :02:17.and public authorities that and public authorities that

:02:17. > :02:18.and public authorities that and public authorities that

:02:18. > :02:20.influence the way we live, and they influence the way we live, and they

:02:20. > :02:21.influence the way we live, and they influence the way we live, and they

:02:21. > :02:22.have to do things, too. All of those have to do things, too. All of those

:02:22. > :02:25.have to do things, too. All of those together add up to a healthier

:02:25. > :02:27.together add up to a healthier country. Baroness Neuberger, after

:02:27. > :02:28.country. Baroness Neuberger, after country. Baroness Neuberger, after

:02:28. > :02:29.country. Baroness Neuberger, after ten years or so of real terms rises

:02:29. > :02:30.ten years or so of real terms rises ten years or so of real terms rises

:02:30. > :02:31.in health spending, why are we in health spending, why are we

:02:31. > :02:34.in health spending, why are we lagging behind so many other

:02:34. > :02:35.lagging behind so many other lagging behind so many other

:02:35. > :02:36.lagging behind so many other nations? There are a lot of reasons

:02:36. > :02:36.nations? There are a lot of reasons nations? There are a lot of reasons

:02:36. > :02:39.nations? There are a lot of reasons for that. I could bang on about this

:02:39. > :02:40.for that. I could bang on about this for that. I could bang on about this

:02:40. > :02:41.for about, having once been chief for about, having once been chief

:02:41. > :02:42.for about, having once been chief for about, having once been chief

:02:42. > :02:44.executive of the kids fund. Has it executive of the kids fund. Has it

:02:44. > :02:45.executive of the kids fund. Has it executive of the kids fund. Has it

:02:45. > :02:47.been a waste of money? No. Firstly, been a waste of money? No. Firstly,

:02:47. > :02:48.been a waste of money? No. Firstly, been a waste of money? No. Firstly,

:02:48. > :02:51.we need to look at where the money we need to look at where the money

:02:51. > :02:52.we need to look at where the money went and what the productivity ratio

:02:52. > :02:53.went and what the productivity ratio went and what the productivity ratio

:02:53. > :02:55.is. There is interesting data coming is. There is interesting data coming

:02:55. > :02:55.is. There is interesting data coming is. There is interesting data coming

:02:55. > :02:58.out from the Nuffield trust on that, out from the Nuffield trust on that,

:02:58. > :02:58.out from the Nuffield trust on that, out from the Nuffield trust on that,

:02:59. > :03:00.looking at what we do with the looking at what we do with the

:03:00. > :03:01.looking at what we do with the money. Secondly, it takes decades to

:03:01. > :03:01.money. Secondly, it takes decades to money. Secondly, it takes decades to

:03:01. > :03:04.money. Secondly, it takes decades to change things. It is only in the

:03:04. > :03:04.change things. It is only in the change things. It is only in the

:03:04. > :03:06.change things. It is only in the last decade that we have had this

:03:06. > :03:06.last decade that we have had this last decade that we have had this

:03:06. > :03:08.extra investment. People forget that extra investment. People forget that

:03:08. > :03:09.extra investment. People forget that extra investment. People forget that

:03:09. > :03:10.extra investment. People forget that if you want to see a real change in

:03:10. > :03:11.if you want to see a real change in if you want to see a real change in

:03:11. > :03:12.mortality and morbidity, you have to mortality and morbidity, you have to

:03:12. > :03:15.mortality and morbidity, you have to mortality and morbidity, you have to

:03:15. > :03:15.look at a 25 to 30 year cycle. look at a 25 to 30 year cycle.

:03:15. > :03:16.look at a 25 to 30 year cycle. Increased spending over the last ten

:03:16. > :03:17.Increased spending over the last ten Increased spending over the last ten

:03:18. > :03:21.Increased spending over the last ten years will not show a great deal.

:03:21. > :03:23.years will not show a great deal. years will not show a great deal.

:03:23. > :03:24.Thirdly, it is about public health Thirdly, it is about public health

:03:24. > :03:26.Thirdly, it is about public health Thirdly, it is about public health

:03:26. > :03:27.and the lack of concentration on it. and the lack of concentration on it.

:03:27. > :03:28.and the lack of concentration on it. and the lack of concentration on it.

:03:28. > :03:29.We talk about our Secretary of State We talk about our Secretary of State

:03:29. > :03:31.We talk about our Secretary of State for health as being the person

:03:31. > :03:32.for health as being the person for health as being the person

:03:32. > :03:33.responsible for the health service. responsible for the health service.

:03:33. > :03:36.responsible for the health service. Actually, the secretary of state for

:03:36. > :03:37.Actually, the secretary of state for Actually, the secretary of state for

:03:37. > :03:38.Actually, the secretary of state for health ought to be the Secretary of

:03:38. > :03:39.health ought to be the Secretary of health ought to be the Secretary of

:03:39. > :03:41.State for the nation's health and State for the nation's health and

:03:41. > :03:42.State for the nation's health and State for the nation's health and

:03:42. > :03:43.the emphasis ought to be more on the emphasis ought to be more on

:03:43. > :03:44.the emphasis ought to be more on prevention. That is partly about

:03:44. > :03:44.prevention. That is partly about prevention. That is partly about

:03:44. > :03:47.lifestyle and partly about women lifestyle and partly about women

:03:47. > :03:48.lifestyle and partly about women policy which encourage us to do

:03:48. > :03:49.policy which encourage us to do policy which encourage us to do

:03:49. > :03:50.something differently. There is a something differently. There is a

:03:50. > :03:51.something differently. There is a sense that in times of austerity,

:03:51. > :03:52.sense that in times of austerity, sense that in times of austerity,

:03:52. > :03:53.although health spending is still although health spending is still

:03:53. > :03:56.although health spending is still going up, public health campaigns

:03:56. > :03:56.going up, public health campaigns going up, public health campaigns

:03:56. > :03:59.going up, public health campaigns have suffered in that is not as much

:03:59. > :04:01.have suffered in that is not as much have suffered in that is not as much

:04:01. > :04:02.have suffered in that is not as much money is going into them. We are

:04:02. > :04:03.money is going into them. We are money is going into them. We are

:04:03. > :04:04.seeing the results of the seeing the results of the

:04:04. > :04:05.anti-smoking campaign, but smoking anti-smoking campaign, but smoking

:04:05. > :04:06.anti-smoking campaign, but smoking is still the highest cause of

:04:06. > :04:08.is still the highest cause of is still the highest cause of

:04:08. > :04:09.diseases leading to damage or diseases leading to damage or

:04:10. > :04:10.diseases leading to damage or diseases leading to damage or

:04:10. > :04:11.death. That is why people are saying death. That is why people are saying

:04:11. > :04:12.death. That is why people are saying we should have plain packaging for

:04:12. > :04:14.we should have plain packaging for we should have plain packaging for

:04:14. > :04:15.we should have plain packaging for cigarettes and so on. But there are

:04:15. > :04:15.cigarettes and so on. But there are cigarettes and so on. But there are

:04:15. > :04:18.also other things. I chaired a also other things. I chaired a

:04:18. > :04:19.also other things. I chaired a committee on behaviour change should

:04:19. > :04:22.committee on behaviour change should committee on behaviour change should

:04:22. > :04:23.and the science behind behavioural and the science behind behavioural

:04:23. > :04:24.psychology and behavioural psychology and behavioural

:04:24. > :04:24.psychology and behavioural psychology and behavioural

:04:24. > :04:28.economics. There is a lot more we economics. There is a lot more we

:04:28. > :04:31.economics. There is a lot more we could do with food packaging. Having

:04:31. > :04:31.could do with food packaging. Having could do with food packaging. Having

:04:31. > :04:35.traffic light food labelling seems traffic light food labelling seems

:04:35. > :04:36.traffic light food labelling seems traffic light food labelling seems

:04:36. > :04:37.to have quite a powerful effect. Why to have quite a powerful effect. Why

:04:37. > :04:38.to have quite a powerful effect. Why aren't we doing that more widely?

:04:38. > :04:39.aren't we doing that more widely? aren't we doing that more widely?

:04:39. > :04:41.aren't we doing that more widely? Why aren't we saying to people, be

:04:41. > :04:42.Why aren't we saying to people, be Why aren't we saying to people, be

:04:42. > :04:43.careful what you eat? What about careful what you eat? What about

:04:43. > :04:44.careful what you eat? What about high blood pressure? I was surprised

:04:44. > :04:45.high blood pressure? I was surprised high blood pressure? I was surprised

:04:45. > :04:47.high blood pressure? I was surprised high blood pressure? I was surprised

:04:47. > :04:48.that that is still a big pub in the that that is still a big pub in the

:04:48. > :04:51.that that is still a big pub in the that that is still a big pub in the

:04:52. > :04:52.UK, when your GP tests BP on a UK, when your GP tests BP on a

:04:52. > :04:53.UK, when your GP tests BP on a UK, when your GP tests BP on a

:04:53. > :04:55.regular basis. If you go to your GP. regular basis. If you go to your GP.

:04:55. > :04:56.regular basis. If you go to your GP. regular basis. If you go to your GP.

:04:56. > :04:58.But look at the incidence of people But look at the incidence of people

:04:58. > :04:59.But look at the incidence of people not going to their GPs, particularly

:04:59. > :05:00.not going to their GPs, particularly not going to their GPs, particularly

:05:00. > :05:01.not going to their GPs, particularly men. Women go to their GP far more

:05:01. > :05:02.men. Women go to their GP far more men. Women go to their GP far more

:05:02. > :05:03.men. Women go to their GP far more than men. People do not go until it

:05:03. > :05:04.than men. People do not go until it than men. People do not go until it

:05:04. > :05:06.than men. People do not go until it is too late. There is a whole thing

:05:06. > :05:10.is too late. There is a whole thing is too late. There is a whole thing

:05:10. > :05:11.about what GPs themselves could do. about what GPs themselves could do.

:05:11. > :05:15.about what GPs themselves could do. We are not spending enough on

:05:15. > :05:17.We are not spending enough on We are not spending enough on

:05:17. > :05:18.primary care and prevention. They primary care and prevention. They

:05:18. > :05:18.primary care and prevention. They primary care and prevention. They

:05:18. > :05:19.primary care and prevention. They should call you in to see your GP to

:05:19. > :05:20.should call you in to see your GP to should call you in to see your GP to

:05:20. > :05:22.test your blood pressure more often, test your blood pressure more often,

:05:22. > :05:22.test your blood pressure more often, test your blood pressure more often,

:05:22. > :05:24.or you could do it yourself. Home or you could do it yourself. Home

:05:24. > :05:25.or you could do it yourself. Home testing, something to look forward

:05:25. > :05:27.testing, something to look forward testing, something to look forward

:05:27. > :05:28.testing, something to look forward to. There is no reason we shouldn't

:05:28. > :05:29.to. There is no reason we shouldn't to. There is no reason we shouldn't

:05:29. > :05:31.provided we do it well. provided we do it well.

:05:31. > :05:32.provided we do it well. There has been pressure on David

:05:32. > :05:33.There has been pressure on David There has been pressure on David

:05:33. > :05:35.Nicholson, the head of the English Nicholson, the head of the English

:05:35. > :05:35.Nicholson, the head of the English NHS, since the publication of the

:05:35. > :05:37.NHS, since the publication of the NHS, since the publication of the

:05:38. > :05:38.Francis report into the abuse and Francis report into the abuse and

:05:38. > :05:39.Francis report into the abuse and neglect that led to hundreds of

:05:39. > :05:41.neglect that led to hundreds of hospital deaths in Mid

:05:41. > :05:42.hospital deaths in Mid hospital deaths in Mid

:05:42. > :05:43.Staffordshire. The report said there Staffordshire. The report said there

:05:43. > :05:44.Staffordshire. The report said there Staffordshire. The report said there

:05:44. > :05:45.had been a failing at every level of had been a failing at every level of

:05:45. > :05:46.had been a failing at every level of the NHS system to prevent the

:05:46. > :05:49.the NHS system to prevent the appalling and unnecessary suffering

:05:49. > :05:51.appalling and unnecessary suffering appalling and unnecessary suffering

:05:51. > :05:51.of hundreds of people. David of hundreds of people. David

:05:51. > :05:52.of hundreds of people. David Nicholson led the regional authority

:05:52. > :05:54.Nicholson led the regional authority overseeing the mid-Staffs trust

:05:54. > :05:55.overseeing the mid-Staffs trust overseeing the mid-Staffs trust

:05:56. > :05:56.during the period in question, during the period in question,

:05:57. > :05:58.during the period in question, before going on to become chief

:05:58. > :05:59.before going on to become chief before going on to become chief

:05:59. > :06:00.executive of the English health executive of the English health

:06:00. > :06:01.executive of the English health service. He has been accused by

:06:01. > :06:02.service. He has been accused by service. He has been accused by

:06:02. > :06:04.relatives of the dead of residing relatives of the dead of residing

:06:04. > :06:05.relatives of the dead of residing over the worst disaster in the

:06:05. > :06:06.over the worst disaster in the over the worst disaster in the

:06:06. > :06:07.history of the NHS. The charges history of the NHS. The charges

:06:07. > :06:08.history of the NHS. The charges against him have grown in recent

:06:08. > :06:11.against him have grown in recent weeks, with revelations that

:06:11. > :06:13.weeks, with revelations that whistleblowers, like former hospital

:06:13. > :06:14.whistleblowers, like former hospital whistleblowers, like former hospital

:06:14. > :06:16.chief Gary Walker, who warned that chief Gary Walker, who warned that

:06:16. > :06:18.chief Gary Walker, who warned that targets were being prioritised over

:06:18. > :06:19.targets were being prioritised over targets were being prioritised over

:06:19. > :06:20.targets were being prioritised over care, and were then forced out of

:06:20. > :06:21.care, and were then forced out of care, and were then forced out of

:06:21. > :06:22.care, and were then forced out of the NHS and gagged. There have been

:06:22. > :06:22.the NHS and gagged. There have been the NHS and gagged. There have been

:06:22. > :06:23.the NHS and gagged. There have been claims in a tribunal this week that

:06:23. > :06:24.claims in a tribunal this week that claims in a tribunal this week that

:06:24. > :06:27.staff at Stafford Hospital were staff at Stafford Hospital were

:06:27. > :06:28.staff at Stafford Hospital were ordered to write fake casualties

:06:28. > :06:29.ordered to write fake casualties ordered to write fake casualties

:06:29. > :06:31.records to meet waiting time records to meet waiting time

:06:31. > :06:33.targets, claims those involved targets, claims those involved

:06:33. > :06:33.targets, claims those involved targets, claims those involved

:06:33. > :06:34.denied. In his report into the Mid denied. In his report into the Mid

:06:34. > :06:35.Staffordshire scandal, Robert Staffordshire scandal, Robert

:06:35. > :06:36.Staffordshire scandal, Robert Staffordshire scandal, Robert

:06:36. > :06:37.Francis said he did not want to see Francis said he did not want to see

:06:37. > :06:38.Francis said he did not want to see a hunt for scapegoats, and David

:06:38. > :06:39.a hunt for scapegoats, and David a hunt for scapegoats, and David

:06:39. > :06:40.Nicholson has the support of the Nicholson has the support of the

:06:40. > :06:41.Nicholson has the support of the government. But there have been

:06:42. > :06:42.government. But there have been government. But there have been

:06:42. > :06:43.government. But there have been calls from some MPs for him to

:06:44. > :06:45.calls from some MPs for him to calls from some MPs for him to

:06:45. > :06:45.resign, and this morning he faced resign, and this morning he faced

:06:45. > :06:49.resign, and this morning he faced questions from the Commons health

:06:49. > :06:49.questions from the Commons health questions from the Commons health

:06:49. > :06:56.select committee. Jury that period, select committee. Jury that period,

:06:56. > :06:57.select committee. Jury that period, select committee. Jury that period,

:06:57. > :06:58.across the NHS as a whole, patients across the NHS as a whole, patients

:06:58. > :07:00.across the NHS as a whole, patients across the NHS as a whole, patients

:07:00. > :07:02.were not the centre of the way the were not the centre of the way the

:07:02. > :07:02.were not the centre of the way the system operated, for a variety of

:07:03. > :07:03.system operated, for a variety of system operated, for a variety of

:07:03. > :07:04.reasons. Not because we were bad, reasons. Not because we were bad,

:07:04. > :07:07.reasons. Not because we were bad, reasons. Not because we were bad,

:07:07. > :07:08.but because there was a set of but because there was a set of

:07:08. > :07:10.but because there was a set of changes going on. There were things

:07:10. > :07:13.changes going on. There were things changes going on. There were things

:07:13. > :07:13.changes going on. There were things we were being to -- being held to

:07:13. > :07:14.we were being to -- being held to we were being to -- being held to

:07:14. > :07:16.account for from the centre which account for from the centre which

:07:16. > :07:17.account for from the centre which created an environment where the

:07:17. > :07:18.created an environment where the created an environment where the

:07:18. > :07:19.leadership of the NHS lost its leadership of the NHS lost its

:07:19. > :07:21.leadership of the NHS lost its leadership of the NHS lost its

:07:21. > :07:22.leadership of the NHS lost its focus. I put my hands up to that.

:07:22. > :07:23.focus. I put my hands up to that. focus. I put my hands up to that.

:07:23. > :07:25.focus. I put my hands up to that. is a funny trick that people do in

:07:25. > :07:26.is a funny trick that people do in is a funny trick that people do in

:07:26. > :07:27.is a funny trick that people do in the witness stand is. They say they

:07:27. > :07:27.the witness stand is. They say they the witness stand is. They say they

:07:27. > :07:29.the witness stand is. They say they can't remember. You seem to be able

:07:29. > :07:29.can't remember. You seem to be able can't remember. You seem to be able

:07:29. > :07:32.can't remember. You seem to be able to not remember lots of things that

:07:32. > :07:35.to not remember lots of things that to not remember lots of things that

:07:35. > :07:36.to not remember lots of things that go on. In paragraph 116, I cannot

:07:36. > :07:39.go on. In paragraph 116, I cannot go on. In paragraph 116, I cannot

:07:39. > :07:40.with -- recall what we specifically with -- recall what we specifically

:07:40. > :07:41.with -- recall what we specifically discussed with regards to the

:07:41. > :07:43.discussed with regards to the discussed with regards to the

:07:43. > :07:48.discussed with regards to the recovery plan. It is not a trick.I

:07:48. > :07:49.recovery plan. It is not a trick.I recovery plan. It is not a trick.I

:07:49. > :07:50.was responsible for 54 to 56 was responsible for 54 to 56

:07:50. > :07:52.was responsible for 54 to 56 organisations. About two thirds of

:07:52. > :07:54.organisations. About two thirds of organisations. About two thirds of

:07:54. > :07:56.them, I had literally never been them, I had literally never been

:07:56. > :07:57.them, I had literally never been involved with before. They were

:07:57. > :07:58.involved with before. They were involved with before. They were

:07:58. > :07:58.involved with before. They were brand-new to me, so I was going

:07:59. > :07:59.brand-new to me, so I was going brand-new to me, so I was going

:07:59. > :08:00.brand-new to me, so I was going through this for the first time. The

:08:01. > :08:01.through this for the first time. The through this for the first time. The

:08:01. > :08:03.through this for the first time. The idea that I could recall in detail

:08:03. > :08:05.idea that I could recall in detail idea that I could recall in detail

:08:05. > :08:06.idea that I could recall in detail each of the meetings I had, it is

:08:06. > :08:08.each of the meetings I had, it is each of the meetings I had, it is

:08:08. > :08:09.each of the meetings I had, it is quite difficult. It is not a trick.

:08:09. > :08:10.quite difficult. It is not a trick. quite difficult. It is not a trick.

:08:10. > :08:13.quite difficult. It is not a trick. This is what we are trying to find

:08:13. > :08:13.This is what we are trying to find This is what we are trying to find

:08:13. > :08:14.This is what we are trying to find out. Is it appropriate for you as

:08:14. > :08:16.out. Is it appropriate for you as out. Is it appropriate for you as

:08:16. > :08:17.the head of the NHS commissioning the head of the NHS commissioning

:08:17. > :08:18.the head of the NHS commissioning the head of the NHS commissioning

:08:18. > :08:19.board to have all this power? board to have all this power?

:08:19. > :08:20.board to have all this power? far do you take responsibility for

:08:20. > :08:24.far do you take responsibility for far do you take responsibility for

:08:24. > :08:25.an organisation that has been showed an organisation that has been showed

:08:25. > :08:26.an organisation that has been showed to minimise patient complaints, to

:08:26. > :08:27.to minimise patient complaints, to to minimise patient complaints, to

:08:27. > :08:30.guard whistleblowers, to amass large guard whistleblowers, to amass large

:08:30. > :08:30.guard whistleblowers, to amass large mortality data and bury bad news?

:08:30. > :08:32.mortality data and bury bad news? mortality data and bury bad news?

:08:32. > :08:33.mortality data and bury bad news? And frankly, to lose sight of the

:08:33. > :08:34.And frankly, to lose sight of the And frankly, to lose sight of the

:08:34. > :08:34.And frankly, to lose sight of the patient in the bed? I don't accept

:08:34. > :08:38.patient in the bed? I don't accept patient in the bed? I don't accept

:08:38. > :08:39.patient in the bed? I don't accept the way you have described the NHS.

:08:39. > :08:40.the way you have described the NHS. the way you have described the NHS.

:08:40. > :08:42.the way you have described the NHS. It is a much more balanced picture

:08:42. > :08:46.It is a much more balanced picture It is a much more balanced picture

:08:46. > :08:47.It is a much more balanced picture than that. Secondly, I have spent 35

:08:47. > :08:52.than that. Secondly, I have spent 35 than that. Secondly, I have spent 35

:08:52. > :08:53.than that. Secondly, I have spent 35 years as Chief Executive of the NHS.

:08:53. > :08:54.years as Chief Executive of the NHS. years as Chief Executive of the NHS.

:08:54. > :08:56.I am completely dedicated to I am completely dedicated to

:08:56. > :08:57.I am completely dedicated to improving services for patients. Of

:08:57. > :08:58.improving services for patients. Of improving services for patients. Of

:08:58. > :08:59.improving services for patients. Of course when I hear bad stories, I

:08:59. > :09:01.course when I hear bad stories, I feel responsible. Like everyone

:09:01. > :09:02.feel responsible. Like everyone feel responsible. Like everyone

:09:02. > :09:04.feel responsible. Like everyone else, I listened to people and talk

:09:05. > :09:05.else, I listened to people and talk else, I listened to people and talk

:09:05. > :09:06.to people. I have a privileged to people. I have a privileged

:09:07. > :09:08.to people. I have a privileged to people. I have a privileged

:09:08. > :09:10.position where I can try to do position where I can try to do

:09:10. > :09:11.something about it. something about it.

:09:11. > :09:12.something about it. With us now the shadow health

:09:12. > :09:13.With us now the shadow health With us now the shadow health

:09:13. > :09:15.minister Andrew Gwynne and the minister Andrew Gwynne and the

:09:15. > :09:17.Conservative Charlotte Leslie. Conservative Charlotte Leslie.

:09:17. > :09:19.Conservative Charlotte Leslie. Charlotte, you want him to step

:09:19. > :09:21.Charlotte, you want him to step Charlotte, you want him to step

:09:21. > :09:21.down. Was there anything in that down. Was there anything in that

:09:21. > :09:25.down. Was there anything in that performance that has convinced you

:09:25. > :09:26.performance that has convinced you performance that has convinced you

:09:26. > :09:27.performance that has convinced you you should stay? I am afraid not. He

:09:27. > :09:27.you should stay? I am afraid not. He you should stay? I am afraid not. He

:09:27. > :09:28.you should stay? I am afraid not. He reinforced the idea that as long as

:09:28. > :09:30.reinforced the idea that as long as reinforced the idea that as long as

:09:30. > :09:30.reinforced the idea that as long as reinforced the idea that as long as

:09:30. > :09:31.the system says it is OK, it is OK. the system says it is OK, it is OK.

:09:31. > :09:32.the system says it is OK, it is OK. the system says it is OK, it is OK.

:09:32. > :09:33.He was asked a number of times about He was asked a number of times about

:09:33. > :09:34.He was asked a number of times about what he personally took an

:09:34. > :09:35.what he personally took an what he personally took an

:09:35. > :09:37.initiative to do, and he always initiative to do, and he always

:09:37. > :09:39.initiative to do, and he always referred to the system. 2-macro key

:09:39. > :09:40.referred to the system. 2-macro key referred to the system. 2-macro key

:09:40. > :09:42.questions were left unanswered. The questions were left unanswered. The

:09:42. > :09:43.questions were left unanswered. The first was to do with Mid

:09:43. > :09:44.first was to do with Mid first was to do with Mid

:09:44. > :09:45.Staffordshire and the second was to Staffordshire and the second was to

:09:45. > :09:46.Staffordshire and the second was to Staffordshire and the second was to

:09:46. > :09:48.do with the mortality data, which he do with the mortality data, which he

:09:48. > :09:49.do with the mortality data, which he do with the mortality data, which he

:09:49. > :09:50.claimed he did not know about until claimed he did not know about until

:09:50. > :09:51.claimed he did not know about until 2009. Mortality data was sent to

:09:51. > :09:51.2009. Mortality data was sent to 2009. Mortality data was sent to

:09:51. > :09:53.each hospital trust every month when each hospital trust every month when

:09:53. > :09:55.each hospital trust every month when each hospital trust every month when

:09:55. > :09:56.things were getting a bit in excess. things were getting a bit in excess.

:09:56. > :09:58.things were getting a bit in excess. things were getting a bit in excess.

:09:58. > :09:59.There is a question of his note There is a question of his note

:09:59. > :10:00.There is a question of his note dismissing the concerns of patient

:10:00. > :10:01.dismissing the concerns of patient dismissing the concerns of patient

:10:01. > :10:02.dismissing the concerns of patient groups who came to see him. And then

:10:02. > :10:04.groups who came to see him. And then groups who came to see him. And then

:10:04. > :10:06.groups who came to see him. And then across the whole of the NHS, there

:10:06. > :10:08.across the whole of the NHS, there across the whole of the NHS, there

:10:08. > :10:09.were three reports published in 2008 were three reports published in 2008

:10:09. > :10:12.which were extremely damning, which were extremely damning,

:10:12. > :10:13.which were extremely damning, which were extremely damning,

:10:13. > :10:13.talking about a culture of fear and talking about a culture of fear and

:10:13. > :10:14.talking about a culture of fear and mistrust in the Department of

:10:14. > :10:16.mistrust in the Department of mistrust in the Department of

:10:16. > :10:19.Health, a lack of trust between Health, a lack of trust between

:10:19. > :10:20.managers and woefully inadequate managers and woefully inadequate

:10:20. > :10:21.managers and woefully inadequate quality assessment systems. He says

:10:21. > :10:22.quality assessment systems. He says quality assessment systems. He says

:10:22. > :10:23.quality assessment systems. He says he did not know about those reports

:10:23. > :10:24.he did not know about those reports he did not know about those reports

:10:24. > :10:28.he did not know about those reports in 2008 and was not responsible for

:10:28. > :10:29.in 2008 and was not responsible for in 2008 and was not responsible for

:10:29. > :10:30.their suppression. The question is, their suppression. The question is,

:10:30. > :10:32.their suppression. The question is, did he suppress those reports

:10:32. > :10:33.did he suppress those reports did he suppress those reports

:10:33. > :10:35.personally? Is he being dishonest? personally? Is he being dishonest?

:10:35. > :10:36.personally? Is he being dishonest? personally? Is he being dishonest?

:10:36. > :10:37.If he did not, who did suppress If he did not, who did suppress

:10:37. > :10:38.If he did not, who did suppress those reports? In the time between

:10:38. > :10:39.those reports? In the time between those reports? In the time between

:10:39. > :10:42.those reports being published and those reports being published and

:10:42. > :10:42.those reports being published and those reports being published and

:10:42. > :10:43.2010, when there were dug up by a 2010, when there were dug up by a

:10:43. > :10:44.2010, when there were dug up by a Freedom of Information Act request

:10:44. > :10:44.Freedom of Information Act request Freedom of Information Act request

:10:44. > :10:46.because even the health select because even the health select

:10:46. > :10:47.because even the health select committee did not have access to

:10:47. > :10:48.committee did not have access to committee did not have access to

:10:48. > :10:49.committee did not have access to them, if you look at the mortality

:10:49. > :10:50.them, if you look at the mortality them, if you look at the mortality

:10:51. > :10:52.rates across the hospitals we are rates across the hospitals we are

:10:52. > :10:53.rates across the hospitals we are worried about, there were 2800

:10:54. > :10:54.worried about, there were 2800 worried about, there were 2800

:10:54. > :10:55.excess deaths. If those reports had excess deaths. If those reports had

:10:55. > :10:57.excess deaths. If those reports had been acted upon, how many lives

:10:57. > :10:58.been acted upon, how many lives been acted upon, how many lives

:10:58. > :11:00.been acted upon, how many lives could have been saved? It was a

:11:00. > :11:02.could have been saved? It was a could have been saved? It was a

:11:02. > :11:03.serious issue which he failed to serious issue which he failed to

:11:03. > :11:04.serious issue which he failed to serious issue which he failed to

:11:04. > :11:05.cancer. This was a man who oversaw cancer. This was a man who oversaw

:11:06. > :11:07.cancer. This was a man who oversaw cancer. This was a man who oversaw

:11:07. > :11:08.all of those things. We do not say all of those things. We do not say

:11:08. > :11:09.all of those things. We do not say he was directly responsible, but he

:11:09. > :11:11.he was directly responsible, but he he was directly responsible, but he

:11:11. > :11:12.he was directly responsible, but he oversaw a regime firstly as chair of

:11:12. > :11:13.oversaw a regime firstly as chair of oversaw a regime firstly as chair of

:11:13. > :11:13.the regional Health Authority, when the regional Health Authority, when

:11:13. > :11:16.the regional Health Authority, when there were hundreds of unnecessary

:11:16. > :11:17.there were hundreds of unnecessary there were hundreds of unnecessary

:11:17. > :11:19.deaths, and then, as Charlotte deaths, and then, as Charlotte

:11:19. > :11:21.deaths, and then, as Charlotte Leslie has outlined, three other

:11:21. > :11:22.Leslie has outlined, three other Leslie has outlined, three other

:11:22. > :11:22.reports about a culture throughout reports about a culture throughout

:11:22. > :11:24.reports about a culture throughout the NHS while he was Chief

:11:24. > :11:25.the NHS while he was Chief the NHS while he was Chief

:11:25. > :11:26.the NHS while he was Chief Executive. How can he stay? We have

:11:26. > :11:27.Executive. How can he stay? We have Executive. How can he stay? We have

:11:27. > :11:29.to tread with caution here. Firstly, to tread with caution here. Firstly,

:11:30. > :11:32.to tread with caution here. Firstly, to tread with caution here. Firstly,

:11:32. > :11:33.David Nicholson is doing a good job David Nicholson is doing a good job

:11:33. > :11:34.David Nicholson is doing a good job at holding the NHS together under

:11:35. > :11:36.at holding the NHS together under difficult circumstances.

:11:36. > :11:38.difficult circumstances. difficult circumstances.

:11:38. > :11:42.according to these three reports. according to these three reports.

:11:42. > :11:43.according to these three reports. are facing a very big reorganising

:11:43. > :11:44.are facing a very big reorganising are facing a very big reorganising

:11:44. > :11:46.are facing a very big reorganising -- reorganisation of the NHS, and we

:11:46. > :11:47.-- reorganisation of the NHS, and we -- reorganisation of the NHS, and we

:11:47. > :11:48.need someone like David Nicholson to need someone like David Nicholson to

:11:48. > :11:49.need someone like David Nicholson to ensure that the National Health

:11:49. > :11:50.ensure that the National Health ensure that the National Health

:11:50. > :11:50.Service is kept together. I also Service is kept together. I also

:11:51. > :11:52.Service is kept together. I also take exception to the fact that

:11:52. > :11:55.take exception to the fact that take exception to the fact that

:11:55. > :12:01.Charlotte says these three reports Charlotte says these three reports

:12:01. > :12:01.were suppressed. Actually, those were suppressed. Actually, those

:12:01. > :12:07.were suppressed. Actually, those three reports fed into the quality

:12:07. > :12:07.three reports fed into the quality three reports fed into the quality

:12:08. > :12:10.review that was led and actually, review that was led and actually,

:12:10. > :12:12.review that was led and actually, review that was led and actually,

:12:12. > :12:15.they were acted on. How were they they were acted on. How were they

:12:15. > :12:15.they were acted on. How were they they were acted on. How were they

:12:15. > :12:18.acted on? They were acted on because acted on? They were acted on because

:12:18. > :12:18.acted on? They were acted on because acted on? They were acted on because

:12:18. > :12:20.the review into the quality of the the review into the quality of the

:12:20. > :12:21.the review into the quality of the NHS, which has driven up standards

:12:21. > :12:28.NHS, which has driven up standards NHS, which has driven up standards

:12:28. > :12:29.NHS, which has driven up standards of quality across the NHS, as even

:12:29. > :12:30.of quality across the NHS, as even of quality across the NHS, as even

:12:30. > :12:32.David Cameron at the knowledge, it David Cameron at the knowledge, it

:12:32. > :12:33.David Cameron at the knowledge, it David Cameron at the knowledge, it

:12:33. > :12:34.is unfair to say these reports were is unfair to say these reports were

:12:34. > :12:37.is unfair to say these reports were suppressed. If you read the final

:12:37. > :12:38.suppressed. If you read the final suppressed. If you read the final

:12:38. > :12:41.government report, it bears no government report, it bears no

:12:41. > :12:41.government report, it bears no relation to what these reports

:12:41. > :12:42.relation to what these reports relation to what these reports

:12:42. > :12:44.relation to what these reports stated was a dire situation in the

:12:44. > :12:45.stated was a dire situation in the stated was a dire situation in the

:12:45. > :12:46.stated was a dire situation in the NHS. Alan Johnson says the NHS is in

:12:46. > :12:49.NHS. Alan Johnson says the NHS is in NHS. Alan Johnson says the NHS is in

:12:49. > :12:55.NHS. Alan Johnson says the NHS is in a good state of health. That was not

:12:55. > :12:55.a good state of health. That was not an appropriate reaction. Secondly,

:12:55. > :12:56.an appropriate reaction. Secondly, an appropriate reaction. Secondly,

:12:56. > :12:59.the things these reports raise are the things these reports raise are

:12:59. > :13:00.the things these reports raise are almost identical to what Francis

:13:00. > :13:02.almost identical to what Francis almost identical to what Francis

:13:02. > :13:05.raised five years later. If they raised five years later. If they

:13:05. > :13:06.raised five years later. If they attempted to be acted upon, the

:13:06. > :13:10.attempted to be acted upon, the attempted to be acted upon, the

:13:10. > :13:10.negligence of not acting upon those negligence of not acting upon those

:13:10. > :13:12.negligence of not acting upon those things is serious. They were not

:13:12. > :13:13.things is serious. They were not things is serious. They were not

:13:13. > :13:15.things is serious. They were not suppressed, but they may -- the idea

:13:15. > :13:16.suppressed, but they may -- the idea suppressed, but they may -- the idea

:13:16. > :13:17.suppressed, but they may -- the idea that they do report was acted upon

:13:17. > :13:18.that they do report was acted upon that they do report was acted upon

:13:18. > :13:22.that they do report was acted upon is not true. It is not easy for

:13:22. > :13:23.is not true. It is not easy for is not true. It is not easy for

:13:23. > :13:23.David Nicholson now. With all this David Nicholson now. With all this

:13:23. > :13:24.David Nicholson now. With all this information coming out, looking at

:13:24. > :13:27.information coming out, looking at information coming out, looking at

:13:27. > :13:28.information coming out, looking at it from a layman's point of view, I

:13:28. > :13:29.it from a layman's point of view, I it from a layman's point of view, I

:13:29. > :13:29.it from a layman's point of view, I know it is difficult if you are a

:13:29. > :13:31.know it is difficult if you are a know it is difficult if you are a

:13:31. > :13:31.know it is difficult if you are a senior manager in the NHS, but it

:13:31. > :13:33.senior manager in the NHS, but it senior manager in the NHS, but it

:13:34. > :13:34.senior manager in the NHS, but it seems it is difficult for him to

:13:34. > :13:35.seems it is difficult for him to seems it is difficult for him to

:13:35. > :13:36.seems it is difficult for him to day. It is difficult for him to

:13:36. > :13:37.day. It is difficult for him to day. It is difficult for him to

:13:37. > :13:41.day. It is difficult for him to stay, but it would be far worse if

:13:41. > :13:42.stay, but it would be far worse if stay, but it would be far worse if

:13:42. > :13:49.he went. There are huge difficulties he went. There are huge difficulties

:13:49. > :13:51.he went. There are huge difficulties in the NHS. Charlotte is arguing

:13:51. > :13:52.in the NHS. Charlotte is arguing in the NHS. Charlotte is arguing

:13:53. > :13:53.that the reports were suppressed and that the reports were suppressed and

:13:53. > :13:54.that the reports were suppressed and that the reports were suppressed and

:13:54. > :13:55.were part of the review. To some were part of the review. To some

:13:55. > :13:56.were part of the review. To some extent, you are both white, which

:13:56. > :13:58.extent, you are both white, which extent, you are both white, which

:13:58. > :14:01.makes it even more difficult. But makes it even more difficult. But

:14:01. > :14:02.makes it even more difficult. But data about access deaths and

:14:02. > :14:03.data about access deaths and hospital statistics, that material

:14:03. > :14:04.hospital statistics, that material hospital statistics, that material

:14:04. > :14:07.hospital statistics, that material has been around for 15 years and

:14:07. > :14:08.has been around for 15 years and has been around for 15 years and

:14:08. > :14:09.has been around for 15 years and more. And the system has not been

:14:09. > :14:10.more. And the system has not been more. And the system has not been

:14:10. > :14:11.more. And the system has not been good at dealing with it. At various

:14:11. > :14:13.good at dealing with it. At various good at dealing with it. At various

:14:13. > :14:14.good at dealing with it. At various times, people in the NHS have wanted

:14:14. > :14:15.times, people in the NHS have wanted times, people in the NHS have wanted

:14:15. > :14:17.times, people in the NHS have wanted to bury the bad news. We know that

:14:17. > :14:18.to bury the bad news. We know that to bury the bad news. We know that

:14:18. > :14:19.to bury the bad news. We know that to be the case. I was Chief

:14:19. > :14:19.to be the case. I was Chief to be the case. I was Chief

:14:19. > :14:21.Executive of the King's fund, and Executive of the King's fund, and

:14:21. > :14:22.Executive of the King's fund, and Executive of the King's fund, and

:14:22. > :14:22.this goes back to that. But does this goes back to that. But does

:14:23. > :14:23.this goes back to that. But does this goes back to that. But does

:14:23. > :14:24.someone have to pay for the fact someone have to pay for the fact

:14:24. > :14:25.someone have to pay for the fact someone have to pay for the fact

:14:25. > :14:28.that it has now come out in the that it has now come out in the

:14:28. > :14:29.that it has now come out in the Francis report that that target and

:14:29. > :14:30.Francis report that that target and Francis report that that target and

:14:30. > :14:31.-- target led culture contributed to -- target led culture contributed to

:14:31. > :14:33.-- target led culture contributed to unnecessary deaths, and he was in

:14:33. > :14:34.unnecessary deaths, and he was in unnecessary deaths, and he was in

:14:34. > :14:35.charge of that culture? You could charge of that culture? You could

:14:35. > :14:36.charge of that culture? You could charge of that culture? You could

:14:36. > :14:39.argue that, but then you could say argue that, but then you could say

:14:39. > :14:40.argue that, but then you could say argue that, but then you could say

:14:40. > :14:41.he was keener -- who was keen on he was keener -- who was keen on

:14:41. > :14:42.he was keener -- who was keen on pushing for that target led

:14:43. > :14:43.pushing for that target led pushing for that target led

:14:43. > :14:44.culture? It was the secretary of culture? It was the secretary of

:14:44. > :14:46.culture? It was the secretary of culture? It was the secretary of

:14:46. > :14:47.state. If you wanted to go down that state. If you wanted to go down that

:14:47. > :14:48.state. If you wanted to go down that path, you could argue that

:14:48. > :14:56.path, you could argue that path, you could argue that

:14:56. > :14:58.politicians have to take the hit. politicians have to take the hit.

:14:58. > :15:00.politicians have to take the hit. Isn't that why they are supporting

:15:00. > :15:01.Isn't that why they are supporting Isn't that why they are supporting

:15:01. > :15:01.Isn't that why they are supporting him? Because they are bound up in

:15:01. > :15:05.him? Because they are bound up in him? Because they are bound up in

:15:05. > :15:07.him? Because they are bound up in what has gone wrong with the NHS.

:15:07. > :15:08.what has gone wrong with the NHS. what has gone wrong with the NHS.

:15:08. > :15:08.what has gone wrong with the NHS. need to recognise that the NHS in

:15:08. > :15:12.need to recognise that the NHS in need to recognise that the NHS in

:15:12. > :15:13.need to recognise that the NHS in 1997 was very different to the NHS

:15:13. > :15:15.1997 was very different to the NHS 1997 was very different to the NHS

:15:15. > :15:17.1997 was very different to the NHS in 2010, and there was not only

:15:17. > :15:18.in 2010, and there was not only in 2010, and there was not only

:15:18. > :15:20.record levels of investment, extra record levels of investment, extra

:15:20. > :15:24.nurses and doctors, new nurses and doctors, new

:15:24. > :15:27.nurses and doctors, new hospitals... But it didn't prevent

:15:27. > :15:28.hospitals... But it didn't prevent these unnecessary deaths. Patient

:15:28. > :15:31.these unnecessary deaths. Patient these unnecessary deaths. Patient

:15:31. > :15:31.satisfaction was at the highest satisfaction was at the highest

:15:31. > :15:35.satisfaction was at the highest levels and the NHS was performing

:15:35. > :15:36.levels and the NHS was performing levels and the NHS was performing

:15:36. > :15:36.well. There are examples, and Mid well. There are examples, and Mid

:15:36. > :15:37.well. There are examples, and Mid Staffordshire is the one uppermost

:15:37. > :15:42.Staffordshire is the one uppermost Staffordshire is the one uppermost

:15:42. > :15:44.Staffordshire is the one uppermost in our minds at the moment...

:15:44. > :15:45.in our minds at the moment... in our minds at the moment...

:15:45. > :15:46.in our minds at the moment... shouldn't he go? Are we truly saying

:15:46. > :15:47.shouldn't he go? Are we truly saying shouldn't he go? Are we truly saying

:15:47. > :15:52.there isn't anybody else who could there isn't anybody else who could

:15:52. > :15:53.there isn't anybody else who could there isn't anybody else who could

:15:53. > :15:55.do this job? The manager code of do this job? The manager code of

:15:55. > :15:56.do this job? The manager code of conduct says I will put patient

:15:56. > :15:57.conduct says I will put patient safety first, take responsibility

:15:57. > :15:59.safety first, take responsibility safety first, take responsibility

:15:59. > :16:02.safety first, take responsibility for my own work and those underneath

:16:02. > :16:03.for my own work and those underneath for my own work and those underneath

:16:03. > :16:05.for my own work and those underneath me. In the case of Mr Nicholson and

:16:05. > :16:06.me. In the case of Mr Nicholson and me. In the case of Mr Nicholson and

:16:06. > :16:08.others, this code of conduct has others, this code of conduct has

:16:08. > :16:10.others, this code of conduct has others, this code of conduct has

:16:10. > :16:12.been broken. If you want to see been broken. If you want to see

:16:12. > :16:14.been broken. If you want to see accountability, it must mean taking

:16:14. > :16:19.accountability, it must mean taking responsibility. For the one-year

:16:19. > :16:20.responsibility. For the one-year responsibility. For the one-year

:16:20. > :16:22.responsibility. For the one-year David Nicholson was in charge of the

:16:22. > :16:23.David Nicholson was in charge of the David Nicholson was in charge of the

:16:23. > :16:24.strategic Health Authority, he was strategic Health Authority, he was

:16:24. > :16:25.overseeing a massive reorganisation overseeing a massive reorganisation

:16:25. > :16:28.overseeing a massive reorganisation overseeing a massive reorganisation

:16:28. > :16:30.of the NHS in the West Midlands, of the NHS in the West Midlands,

:16:30. > :16:32.combining three smaller strategic combining three smaller strategic

:16:32. > :16:35.combining three smaller strategic Health Authority is into one, a

:16:35. > :16:37.large-scale ambulance large-scale ambulance

:16:37. > :16:38.reorganisation, and reducing the reorganisation, and reducing the

:16:38. > :16:42.reorganisation, and reducing the number of primary care trusts by

:16:42. > :16:44.number of primary care trusts by number of primary care trusts by

:16:44. > :16:45.number of primary care trusts by half across the region. Some of that

:16:45. > :16:48.half across the region. Some of that reorganisation was almost certainly

:16:48. > :16:49.reorganisation was almost certainly reorganisation was almost certainly

:16:49. > :16:52.unnecessary and politicians need to unnecessary and politicians need to

:16:52. > :16:53.unnecessary and politicians need to take responsibility for the constant

:16:53. > :16:54.take responsibility for the constant take responsibility for the constant

:16:54. > :16:55.moving of deckchairs. Do you accept moving of deckchairs. Do you accept

:16:55. > :16:58.moving of deckchairs. Do you accept moving of deckchairs. Do you accept

:16:58. > :16:59.David Nicholson has said the NHS is David Nicholson has said the NHS is

:16:59. > :17:00.David Nicholson has said the NHS is under massive risk as the

:17:00. > :17:01.under massive risk as the restructuring takes place, having

:17:01. > :17:03.restructuring takes place, having restructuring takes place, having

:17:03. > :17:04.restructuring takes place, having laid out all of your claims against

:17:04. > :17:06.laid out all of your claims against laid out all of your claims against

:17:06. > :17:10.laid out all of your claims against him he is now having to oversee a

:17:10. > :17:11.him he is now having to oversee a him he is now having to oversee a

:17:11. > :17:12.reorganisation. One of the most reorganisation. One of the most

:17:12. > :17:13.important things in any important things in any

:17:13. > :17:14.important things in any reorganisation is that the man at

:17:14. > :17:16.reorganisation is that the man at reorganisation is that the man at

:17:16. > :17:20.reorganisation is that the man at the top has to have confidence in

:17:20. > :17:23.the top has to have confidence in the top has to have confidence in

:17:23. > :17:24.doctors. The burden brought in on doctors. The burden brought in on

:17:24. > :17:26.them was jeopardising patient them was jeopardising patient

:17:26. > :17:33.them was jeopardising patient them was jeopardising patient

:17:33. > :17:36.safety. How can a man who has safety. How can a man who has

:17:36. > :17:37.overseen this move without overseen this move without

:17:37. > :17:40.overseen this move without accountability? He says in the case

:17:40. > :17:43.accountability? He says in the case accountability? He says in the case

:17:43. > :17:45.of the Lincolnshire NHS trust that of the Lincolnshire NHS trust that

:17:45. > :17:47.of the Lincolnshire NHS trust that he didn't know. In big organisations

:17:47. > :17:49.he didn't know. In big organisations he didn't know. In big organisations

:17:49. > :17:50.like the NHS, you cannot know like the NHS, you cannot know

:17:50. > :17:52.like the NHS, you cannot know like the NHS, you cannot know

:17:52. > :17:52.everything, can you? If you are paid everything, can you? If you are paid

:17:52. > :17:53.everything, can you? If you are paid everything, can you? If you are paid

:17:53. > :17:55.everything, can you? If you are paid a large salary to be at the top of

:17:55. > :17:56.a large salary to be at the top of a large salary to be at the top of

:17:56. > :17:57.a large salary to be at the top of the tree, that is because you take

:17:57. > :18:00.the tree, that is because you take the tree, that is because you take

:18:00. > :18:00.responsibility for your own work and responsibility for your own work and

:18:00. > :18:04.responsibility for your own work and that work from people underneath

:18:04. > :18:08.that work from people underneath that work from people underneath

:18:08. > :18:10.that work from people underneath you. We owe it to patients and

:18:10. > :18:11.you. We owe it to patients and you. We owe it to patients and

:18:11. > :18:13.doctors to change that culture. We doctors to change that culture. We

:18:13. > :18:13.doctors to change that culture. We doctors to change that culture. We

:18:13. > :18:15.have an opportunity and it would be have an opportunity and it would be

:18:15. > :18:18.have an opportunity and it would be have an opportunity and it would be

:18:18. > :18:19.remiss not to do it. The danger is remiss not to do it. The danger is

:18:19. > :18:23.remiss not to do it. The danger is remiss not to do it. The danger is

:18:23. > :18:24.that embarking on a massive top down that embarking on a massive top down

:18:24. > :18:25.reorganisation, something you said reorganisation, something you said

:18:25. > :18:27.reorganisation, something you said would not happen at the next

:18:27. > :18:31.would not happen at the next would not happen at the next

:18:31. > :18:33.election, making sure we learned election, making sure we learned

:18:33. > :18:33.election, making sure we learned election, making sure we learned

:18:33. > :18:36.those lessons, we miss all of that those lessons, we miss all of that

:18:36. > :18:37.those lessons, we miss all of that those lessons, we miss all of that

:18:37. > :18:38.and we go through the procedure is and we go through the procedure is

:18:38. > :18:41.and we go through the procedure is again of reorganising and we don't

:18:41. > :18:42.again of reorganising and we don't again of reorganising and we don't

:18:42. > :18:43.tackle the underlying problems. tackle the underlying problems.

:18:43. > :18:47.tackle the underlying problems. we were serious about reorganising,

:18:47. > :18:48.we were serious about reorganising, we were serious about reorganising,

:18:48. > :18:49.we were serious about reorganising, to get the patients' voice at the

:18:49. > :18:50.to get the patients' voice at the to get the patients' voice at the

:18:50. > :18:51.to get the patients' voice at the heart of it, this is not how you

:18:51. > :18:52.heart of it, this is not how you heart of it, this is not how you

:18:52. > :18:55.heart of it, this is not how you would do it and you would have to

:18:55. > :18:57.would do it and you would have to would do it and you would have to

:18:57. > :18:59.put patients more at the forefront. put patients more at the forefront.

:18:59. > :19:02.put patients more at the forefront. put patients more at the forefront.

:19:02. > :19:02.No one wants to be taking that on. No one wants to be taking that on.

:19:02. > :19:04.No one wants to be taking that on. Even David Nicholson has admitted

:19:04. > :19:05.Even David Nicholson has admitted Even David Nicholson has admitted

:19:05. > :19:07.Even David Nicholson has admitted patients were not at the centre of

:19:07. > :19:08.patients were not at the centre of patients were not at the centre of

:19:08. > :19:12.patients were not at the centre of the NHS. We have learnt that the

:19:12. > :19:13.the NHS. We have learnt that the central bureaucratic organisation

:19:13. > :19:14.central bureaucratic organisation central bureaucratic organisation

:19:14. > :19:15.central bureaucratic organisation does not work for the NHS, so who

:19:15. > :19:17.does not work for the NHS, so who does not work for the NHS, so who

:19:17. > :19:18.does not work for the NHS, so who better to put in charge of the

:19:18. > :19:24.better to put in charge of the commissioning than the commissions

:19:24. > :19:25.commissioning than the commissions commissioning than the commissions

:19:25. > :19:25.commissioning than the commissions themselves? That is why this is so

:19:25. > :19:26.themselves? That is why this is so themselves? That is why this is so

:19:26. > :19:29.timely. Many clinicians were trying timely. Many clinicians were trying

:19:29. > :19:29.timely. Many clinicians were trying timely. Many clinicians were trying

:19:29. > :19:35.to speak out. They are the ones that to speak out. They are the ones that

:19:35. > :19:37.to speak out. They are the ones that should be driving this. Thank you.

:19:37. > :19:38.should be driving this. Thank you. should be driving this. Thank you.

:19:38. > :19:41.should be driving this. Thank you. Do you have a short attention span?

:19:41. > :19:42.Do you have a short attention span? Do you have a short attention span?

:19:42. > :19:43.Have you ever considered working in Have you ever considered working in

:19:43. > :19:45.Have you ever considered working in business? UK plc is plagued by

:19:45. > :19:46.business? UK plc is plagued by business? UK plc is plagued by

:19:46. > :19:47.business? UK plc is plagued by short-term thinking and it is a big

:19:47. > :19:48.short-term thinking and it is a big short-term thinking and it is a big

:19:48. > :19:51.short-term thinking and it is a big problem, so says a report by the

:19:51. > :19:52.problem, so says a report by the problem, so says a report by the

:19:52. > :20:02.businessmen Sir George Cox. He says businessmen Sir George Cox. He says

:20:02. > :20:13.

:20:13. > :20:16.businessmen Sir George Cox. He says he has a solution. He wants lower

:20:16. > :20:17.he has a solution. He wants lower capital gains tax for long-term

:20:17. > :20:19.capital gains tax for long-term capital gains tax for long-term

:20:19. > :20:26.investors. He wants a longer term investors. He wants a longer term

:20:26. > :20:27.investors. He wants a longer term perspective or instruct structure --

:20:27. > :20:29.perspective or instruct structure -- for infrastructure and wants

:20:29. > :20:30.for infrastructure and wants for infrastructure and wants

:20:30. > :20:31.executive pay to be tied to executive pay to be tied to

:20:31. > :20:33.long-term performance. From the long-term performance. From the

:20:34. > :20:35.long-term performance. From the other side, the free enterprise

:20:35. > :20:35.other side, the free enterprise other side, the free enterprise

:20:35. > :20:37.other side, the free enterprise group of Tory MPs have called for

:20:37. > :20:38.group of Tory MPs have called for group of Tory MPs have called for

:20:38. > :20:39.group of Tory MPs have called for radical tax cuts now to deliver a

:20:39. > :20:42.radical tax cuts now to deliver a radical tax cuts now to deliver a

:20:42. > :20:43.quick boost to the economy. Joining quick boost to the economy. Joining

:20:43. > :20:48.quick boost to the economy. Joining me now, Labour's Business Minister

:20:48. > :20:49.me now, Labour's Business Minister me now, Labour's Business Minister

:20:50. > :20:51.me now, Labour's Business Minister Iain Wright and MP Jesse Norman. How

:20:51. > :20:51.Iain Wright and MP Jesse Norman. How Iain Wright and MP Jesse Norman. How

:20:51. > :20:54.are those suggestions going to are those suggestions going to

:20:54. > :20:58.are those suggestions going to kickstart the economy now? It is

:20:58. > :20:59.kickstart the economy now? It is kickstart the economy now? It is

:20:59. > :21:00.important that looking at a important that looking at a

:21:01. > :21:01.important that looking at a short-term boost, but as Sir George

:21:01. > :21:02.short-term boost, but as Sir George short-term boost, but as Sir George

:21:02. > :21:03.short-term boost, but as Sir George Cox says in his report, for too long

:21:03. > :21:04.Cox says in his report, for too long Cox says in his report, for too long

:21:04. > :21:14.Cox says in his report, for too long we have had an emphasis on getting a

:21:14. > :21:24.

:21:24. > :21:25.we have had an emphasis on getting a we have had an emphasis on getting a

:21:25. > :21:29.we have had an emphasis on getting a quick buck. What do you say to

:21:29. > :21:30.quick buck. What do you say to quick buck. What do you say to

:21:30. > :21:34.that? That long-term goals would that? That long-term goals would

:21:34. > :21:35.that? That long-term goals would reap greater dividends? It is

:21:35. > :21:36.reap greater dividends? It is reap greater dividends? It is

:21:36. > :21:44.interesting how the government focus interesting how the government focus

:21:44. > :21:45.interesting how the government focus interesting how the government focus

:21:45. > :21:47.has been on the long-term. The real has been on the long-term. The real

:21:47. > :21:48.has been on the long-term. The real has been on the long-term. The real

:21:48. > :21:49.has been on the long-term. The real question is how do we get rid of the

:21:49. > :21:51.question is how do we get rid of the embedded short-term culture in

:21:51. > :21:52.embedded short-term culture in embedded short-term culture in

:21:52. > :21:52.business and the government in the business and the government in the

:21:52. > :21:55.business and the government in the instruments of government? I think

:21:55. > :21:58.instruments of government? I think instruments of government? I think

:21:58. > :21:58.this is a helpful and interesting this is a helpful and interesting

:21:58. > :22:00.this is a helpful and interesting report in terms of contributing.

:22:00. > :22:01.report in terms of contributing. report in terms of contributing.

:22:01. > :22:02.report in terms of contributing. come back to the question of growth

:22:02. > :22:04.come back to the question of growth come back to the question of growth

:22:04. > :22:06.come back to the question of growth now. Do you agree with some of the

:22:06. > :22:06.now. Do you agree with some of the now. Do you agree with some of the

:22:07. > :22:08.suggestions that have been put suggestions that have been put

:22:08. > :22:09.suggestions that have been put forward by Jesse Norman's group,

:22:09. > :22:10.forward by Jesse Norman's group, forward by Jesse Norman's group,

:22:10. > :22:13.forward by Jesse Norman's group, that we need to have some radical

:22:13. > :22:15.that we need to have some radical that we need to have some radical

:22:15. > :22:16.tax cuts or some series investment tax cuts or some series investment

:22:16. > :22:19.tax cuts or some series investment bringing down corporation tax for

:22:19. > :22:20.bringing down corporation tax for bringing down corporation tax for

:22:20. > :22:22.example? There is something to be example? There is something to be

:22:22. > :22:23.example? There is something to be example? There is something to be

:22:23. > :22:27.said about that. We have called for said about that. We have called for

:22:27. > :22:28.said about that. We have called for said about that. We have called for

:22:28. > :22:30.targeted tax cuts, and I don't think targeted tax cuts, and I don't think

:22:30. > :22:31.targeted tax cuts, and I don't think targeted tax cuts, and I don't think

:22:31. > :22:33.the tax cuts for millionaires at the the tax cuts for millionaires at the

:22:33. > :22:35.the tax cuts for millionaires at the expense of the wider population

:22:35. > :22:38.expense of the wider population matters. Investment in

:22:38. > :22:39.matters. Investment in infrastructure is important.

:22:39. > :22:40.infrastructure is important. infrastructure is important.

:22:40. > :22:44.Long-term, where will we make our Long-term, where will we make our

:22:45. > :22:46.Long-term, where will we make our Long-term, where will we make our

:22:46. > :22:47.money in the next 30 years? In the money in the next 30 years? In the

:22:47. > :22:48.money in the next 30 years? In the money in the next 30 years? In the

:22:48. > :22:49.money in the next 30 years? In the report, and I take my hat off to Sir

:22:50. > :22:50.report, and I take my hat off to Sir report, and I take my hat off to Sir

:22:50. > :22:52.report, and I take my hat off to Sir George Cox for this, there is an

:22:52. > :22:54.George Cox for this, there is an interesting parallel to the

:22:54. > :22:56.interesting parallel to the interesting parallel to the

:22:56. > :22:57.Olympics. Britain was doing very Olympics. Britain was doing very

:22:57. > :22:59.badly, then essentially somebody badly, then essentially somebody

:22:59. > :23:01.badly, then essentially somebody said to take this seriously and

:23:01. > :23:02.said to take this seriously and said to take this seriously and

:23:02. > :23:03.invest, and be brutal in not invest, and be brutal in not

:23:03. > :23:07.invest, and be brutal in not invest, and be brutal in not

:23:07. > :23:08.investing in areas where we are not investing in areas where we are not

:23:08. > :23:11.investing in areas where we are not competitively strong. For us, it is

:23:11. > :23:15.competitively strong. For us, it is areas like pharmaceuticals, various

:23:15. > :23:18.areas like pharmaceuticals, various areas like pharmaceuticals, various

:23:18. > :23:19.areas like pharmaceuticals, various areas of technology, and it is a

:23:19. > :23:22.areas of technology, and it is a long-term investment strategy

:23:22. > :23:27.long-term investment strategy long-term investment strategy

:23:27. > :23:28.focusing on Friday Value added focusing on Friday Value added

:23:28. > :23:30.focusing on Friday Value added technologies. Why would it be a

:23:30. > :23:32.technologies. Why would it be a technologies. Why would it be a

:23:32. > :23:32.success? Just because it is success? Just because it is

:23:33. > :23:35.independent of government control. independent of government control.

:23:35. > :23:36.independent of government control. independent of government control.

:23:36. > :23:37.We have the OBE are and one could We have the OBE are and one could

:23:37. > :23:38.We have the OBE are and one could We have the OBE are and one could

:23:38. > :23:42.argue it hasn't got one of its argue it hasn't got one of its

:23:42. > :23:43.argue it hasn't got one of its forecasts right. It would still be

:23:43. > :23:49.forecasts right. It would still be forecasts right. It would still be

:23:49. > :23:50.central planning, why would that central planning, why would that

:23:50. > :23:51.central planning, why would that work? Whether it is aviation

:23:51. > :23:54.work? Whether it is aviation work? Whether it is aviation

:23:54. > :23:54.strategy, energy policy, at the strategy, energy policy, at the

:23:54. > :23:58.strategy, energy policy, at the moment we haven't got that.

:23:58. > :24:01.moment we haven't got that. can't politicians make decisions

:24:01. > :24:02.can't politicians make decisions can't politicians make decisions

:24:02. > :24:02.about infrastructure? I think they about infrastructure? I think they

:24:02. > :24:06.about infrastructure? I think they can but it takes cross-party

:24:06. > :24:12.can but it takes cross-party can but it takes cross-party

:24:12. > :24:13.consensus. When you have too much consensus. When you have too much

:24:13. > :24:23.consensus. When you have too much alienation, people want it to be

:24:23. > :24:24.

:24:24. > :24:25.alienation, people want it to be democratically accountable. What is

:24:25. > :24:26.democratically accountable. What is interesting in a re-energise

:24:26. > :24:30.interesting in a re-energise treasury group sitting there,

:24:30. > :24:32.treasury group sitting there, treasury group sitting there,

:24:32. > :24:33.thinking how can we raise money, thinking how can we raise money,

:24:33. > :24:34.thinking how can we raise money, with the understanding that this

:24:34. > :24:35.with the understanding that this with the understanding that this

:24:35. > :24:36.parliament will not see anything parliament will not see anything

:24:36. > :24:39.parliament will not see anything like the benefit of the Olympics,

:24:39. > :24:40.like the benefit of the Olympics, like the benefit of the Olympics,

:24:40. > :24:41.like the benefit of the Olympics, and that is a long-term process.

:24:41. > :24:45.and that is a long-term process. and that is a long-term process.

:24:46. > :24:46.it time to stop ring fencing it time to stop ring fencing

:24:46. > :24:48.it time to stop ring fencing health, education, and foreign aid

:24:48. > :24:50.health, education, and foreign aid health, education, and foreign aid

:24:50. > :24:51.health, education, and foreign aid budgets, to try to use that money to

:24:51. > :24:52.budgets, to try to use that money to budgets, to try to use that money to

:24:52. > :24:54.kickstart the economy? The most kickstart the economy? The most

:24:55. > :24:55.kickstart the economy? The most kickstart the economy? The most

:24:55. > :24:57.striking part of this report is that striking part of this report is that

:24:57. > :24:58.striking part of this report is that striking part of this report is that

:24:58. > :25:00.for the best part of 40 years, for the best part of 40 years,

:25:00. > :25:02.for the best part of 40 years, politicians have been obsessed with

:25:02. > :25:03.politicians have been obsessed with politicians have been obsessed with

:25:03. > :25:04.politicians have been obsessed with how you divide the pie. How will you

:25:04. > :25:07.how you divide the pie. How will you how you divide the pie. How will you

:25:07. > :25:09.divide expenditure, whether it is divide expenditure, whether it is

:25:09. > :25:10.divide expenditure, whether it is defence over welfare. The question

:25:10. > :25:11.defence over welfare. The question defence over welfare. The question

:25:11. > :25:12.defence over welfare. The question is how we create the wealth to make

:25:12. > :25:13.is how we create the wealth to make is how we create the wealth to make

:25:13. > :25:16.is how we create the wealth to make the pie in the first place. Is it

:25:16. > :25:18.the pie in the first place. Is it the pie in the first place. Is it

:25:18. > :25:19.time to stop ring fencing those time to stop ring fencing those

:25:19. > :25:20.departments because others are departments because others are

:25:20. > :25:21.departments because others are squealing and saying you will not

:25:21. > :25:22.squealing and saying you will not squealing and saying you will not

:25:22. > :25:25.take more money from welfare, take more money from welfare,

:25:25. > :25:26.take more money from welfare, take more money from welfare,

:25:27. > :25:31.defence and business in order to be defence and business in order to be

:25:31. > :25:32.defence and business in order to be defence and business in order to be

:25:32. > :25:33.funding the others. You would say if funding the others. You would say if

:25:33. > :25:33.funding the others. You would say if funding the others. You would say if

:25:33. > :25:37.you want to take a long-term view, you want to take a long-term view,

:25:37. > :25:38.you want to take a long-term view, you want to take a long-term view,

:25:38. > :25:39.there is a lot of technology in there is a lot of technology in

:25:39. > :25:40.there is a lot of technology in there is a lot of technology in

:25:40. > :25:41.health care and you would say to the health care and you would say to the

:25:41. > :25:45.health care and you would say to the Department of Health you can keep

:25:45. > :25:45.Department of Health you can keep Department of Health you can keep

:25:45. > :25:46.Department of Health you can keep your budget but you are expected to

:25:47. > :25:48.your budget but you are expected to your budget but you are expected to

:25:49. > :25:49.your budget but you are expected to your budget but you are expected to

:25:49. > :25:50.use all of the data you can get to use all of the data you can get to

:25:50. > :25:52.use all of the data you can get to really innovate. I think you could

:25:52. > :25:53.really innovate. I think you could really innovate. I think you could

:25:53. > :25:55.really innovate. I think you could use it in a different way. Is Philip

:25:55. > :25:55.use it in a different way. Is Philip use it in a different way. Is Philip

:25:55. > :25:56.use it in a different way. Is Philip Hulme and wrong to say we should

:25:56. > :26:02.Hulme and wrong to say we should Hulme and wrong to say we should

:26:02. > :26:06.have more money from the welfare have more money from the welfare

:26:06. > :26:09.have more money from the welfare budget? He is perfectly entitled,

:26:10. > :26:10.budget? He is perfectly entitled, budget? He is perfectly entitled,

:26:10. > :26:13.budget? He is perfectly entitled, but I do think Baroness Neuberger is

:26:13. > :26:14.but I do think Baroness Neuberger is but I do think Baroness Neuberger is

:26:14. > :26:15.but I do think Baroness Neuberger is right. The NHS, this is the first

:26:15. > :26:17.right. The NHS, this is the first right. The NHS, this is the first

:26:17. > :26:19.right. The NHS, this is the first time in which a vast amount of data

:26:19. > :26:21.time in which a vast amount of data time in which a vast amount of data

:26:21. > :26:24.built over several decades is now built over several decades is now

:26:24. > :26:29.being used for pharmaceutical being used for pharmaceutical

:26:29. > :26:30.being used for pharmaceutical research. That is a very long-term

:26:30. > :26:30.research. That is a very long-term research. That is a very long-term

:26:30. > :26:31.investment that will yield benefits. investment that will yield benefits.

:26:31. > :26:33.investment that will yield benefits. How rattled our Tory backbenchers

:26:33. > :26:34.How rattled our Tory backbenchers How rattled our Tory backbenchers

:26:34. > :26:36.over the economy? Your colleague has over the economy? Your colleague has

:26:36. > :26:37.over the economy? Your colleague has over the economy? Your colleague has

:26:37. > :26:38.told George Osborne he has got to told George Osborne he has got to

:26:38. > :26:39.told George Osborne he has got to told George Osborne he has got to

:26:39. > :26:42.man all over the economy. I don't man all over the economy. I don't

:26:42. > :26:44.man all over the economy. I don't think you should take the prebudget

:26:44. > :26:45.think you should take the prebudget think you should take the prebudget

:26:45. > :26:49.jockeying as evidence for the state jockeying as evidence for the state

:26:49. > :26:51.jockeying as evidence for the state of the argument. Or the

:26:51. > :26:53.of the argument. Or the of the argument. Or the

:26:53. > :26:54.of the argument. Or the backbenchers? I think you have a lot

:26:54. > :26:55.backbenchers? I think you have a lot backbenchers? I think you have a lot

:26:55. > :26:56.backbenchers? I think you have a lot of people offering views and that is

:26:56. > :26:59.of people offering views and that is of people offering views and that is

:26:59. > :27:01.what any good politician would want. what any good politician would want.

:27:01. > :27:02.what any good politician would want. what any good politician would want.

:27:02. > :27:03.Is that what George Osborne wants to Is that what George Osborne wants to

:27:03. > :27:04.Is that what George Osborne wants to hear, that the backbenchers are

:27:04. > :27:06.hear, that the backbenchers are hear, that the backbenchers are

:27:06. > :27:07.hear, that the backbenchers are offering a range of ideas? He has

:27:07. > :27:13.offering a range of ideas? He has offering a range of ideas? He has

:27:13. > :27:14.said we want the best thinking, said we want the best thinking,

:27:14. > :27:16.said we want the best thinking, alongside... There will be a debate

:27:16. > :27:17.alongside... There will be a debate alongside... There will be a debate

:27:17. > :27:24.alongside... There will be a debate about it, he is robust enough to

:27:24. > :27:24.about it, he is robust enough to about it, he is robust enough to

:27:25. > :27:26.about it, he is robust enough to deal with that. All of the things

:27:26. > :27:27.deal with that. All of the things deal with that. All of the things

:27:27. > :27:30.deal with that. All of the things that have been put forward by your

:27:30. > :27:31.that have been put forward by your that have been put forward by your

:27:31. > :27:32.that have been put forward by your colleagues, is it right to use those

:27:32. > :27:34.colleagues, is it right to use those colleagues, is it right to use those

:27:34. > :27:42.suggestions to boost the economy? suggestions to boost the economy?

:27:42. > :27:43.suggestions to boost the economy? should simply ask the question Comet

:27:43. > :27:44.should simply ask the question Comet should simply ask the question Comet

:27:44. > :27:46.is the money being appropriately is the money being appropriately

:27:46. > :27:47.is the money being appropriately is the money being appropriately

:27:47. > :27:48.spent? If it turned out you were not spent? If it turned out you were not

:27:48. > :27:49.spent? If it turned out you were not hitting your development and aid

:27:49. > :27:51.hitting your development and aid hitting your development and aid

:27:51. > :27:52.goals because it was being badly goals because it was being badly

:27:52. > :27:54.goals because it was being badly spent, that would be reason enough

:27:54. > :27:55.spent, that would be reason enough spent, that would be reason enough

:27:55. > :27:59.spent, that would be reason enough to look again at the budget. And you

:27:59. > :27:59.to look again at the budget. And you to look again at the budget. And you

:27:59. > :28:03.would like look again at universal would like look again at universal

:28:03. > :28:05.would like look again at universal benefits? There is a strong balance

:28:05. > :28:05.benefits? There is a strong balance benefits? There is a strong balance

:28:05. > :28:07.about having targeted benefits for about having targeted benefits for

:28:07. > :28:09.about having targeted benefits for the vulnerable whilst at the same

:28:09. > :28:10.the vulnerable whilst at the same the vulnerable whilst at the same

:28:10. > :28:12.time ensuring all of society can time ensuring all of society can

:28:12. > :28:13.time ensuring all of society can benefit. That balance is an

:28:13. > :28:14.benefit. That balance is an benefit. That balance is an

:28:14. > :28:15.benefit. That balance is an important debate to have, but we are

:28:15. > :28:16.important debate to have, but we are important debate to have, but we are

:28:16. > :28:17.moving away from the key point, moving away from the key point,

:28:17. > :28:19.moving away from the key point, moving away from the key point,

:28:19. > :28:20.which is how we make sure we have which is how we make sure we have

:28:20. > :28:26.which is how we make sure we have the wealth creating structures of

:28:26. > :28:26.the wealth creating structures of the wealth creating structures of

:28:26. > :28:31.the wealth creating structures of the future. This is longer than one

:28:31. > :28:32.the future. This is longer than one the future. This is longer than one

:28:32. > :28:33.single parliament. You think George single parliament. You think George

:28:33. > :28:35.single parliament. You think George single parliament. You think George

:28:35. > :28:36.Osborne is still doing a good job? Osborne is still doing a good job?

:28:36. > :28:39.Osborne is still doing a good job? think the Chancellor is doing a

:28:39. > :28:39.think the Chancellor is doing a think the Chancellor is doing a

:28:39. > :28:42.think the Chancellor is doing a great job, and nothing would fill me

:28:42. > :28:43.great job, and nothing would fill me great job, and nothing would fill me

:28:43. > :28:45.great job, and nothing would fill me with more worry than the idea of the

:28:45. > :28:47.with more worry than the idea of the industrial strategy, old school.

:28:47. > :28:47.industrial strategy, old school. industrial strategy, old school.

:28:48. > :28:49.industrial strategy, old school. This shares out a series of good

:28:49. > :28:50.This shares out a series of good This shares out a series of good

:28:50. > :28:52.This shares out a series of good ideas that can be looked at by both

:28:53. > :28:53.ideas that can be looked at by both ideas that can be looked at by both

:28:53. > :28:57.parties. Could you feed yourself on parties. Could you feed yourself on

:28:57. > :28:58.parties. Could you feed yourself on parties. Could you feed yourself on

:28:58. > :28:58.�1 a day? The campaign Live Below �1 a day? The campaign Live Below

:28:58. > :29:05.�1 a day? The campaign Live Below The Line is encouraging people to

:29:05. > :29:06.The Line is encouraging people to The Line is encouraging people to

:29:06. > :29:10.The Line is encouraging people to The Line is encouraging people to

:29:10. > :29:11.spend no more than �1 a day on food. spend no more than �1 a day on food.

:29:11. > :29:12.spend no more than �1 a day on food. More than a billion people around

:29:12. > :29:13.More than a billion people around More than a billion people around

:29:13. > :29:13.More than a billion people around the world have to survive on less

:29:14. > :29:16.the world have to survive on less the world have to survive on less

:29:16. > :29:18.the world have to survive on less than �1 a day for their basic

:29:18. > :29:19.than �1 a day for their basic than �1 a day for their basic

:29:19. > :29:20.needs, and this charity wants people needs, and this charity wants people

:29:20. > :29:20.needs, and this charity wants people needs, and this charity wants people

:29:20. > :29:23.needs, and this charity wants people in the UK to get an idea of what

:29:23. > :29:23.in the UK to get an idea of what in the UK to get an idea of what

:29:23. > :29:26.in the UK to get an idea of what that feels like. They have roped in

:29:26. > :29:27.that feels like. They have roped in that feels like. They have roped in

:29:27. > :29:28.the former first Minister of the former first Minister of

:29:28. > :29:30.the former first Minister of Scotland Jack McConnell to try this

:29:30. > :29:30.Scotland Jack McConnell to try this Scotland Jack McConnell to try this

:29:30. > :29:40.Scotland Jack McConnell to try this Scotland Jack McConnell to try this

:29:40. > :29:44.

:29:44. > :29:45.out. What is it like living on �1 a out. What is it like living on �1 a

:29:45. > :29:46.out. What is it like living on �1 a out. What is it like living on �1 a

:29:46. > :29:47.day? It is tough for the full five day? It is tough for the full five

:29:47. > :29:50.day? It is tough for the full five day? It is tough for the full five

:29:50. > :29:51.days. At first you can manage, but days. At first you can manage, but

:29:51. > :29:51.days. At first you can manage, but then it gets tough. You experience

:29:51. > :29:53.then it gets tough. You experience then it gets tough. You experience

:29:53. > :29:54.then it gets tough. You experience what it must be like to live like

:29:54. > :29:57.what it must be like to live like what it must be like to live like

:29:57. > :29:58.what it must be like to live like that all the time, to some extent.

:29:58. > :29:59.that all the time, to some extent. that all the time, to some extent.

:29:59. > :29:59.that all the time, to some extent. What is it that happens to you? Do

:29:59. > :30:02.What is it that happens to you? Do What is it that happens to you? Do

:30:02. > :30:03.What is it that happens to you? Do you get tired or grumpy? I fell

:30:03. > :30:13.you get tired or grumpy? I fell you get tired or grumpy? I fell

:30:13. > :30:35.

:30:35. > :30:36.you get tired or grumpy? I fell trying to live on crisps or Mars

:30:36. > :30:37.trying to live on crisps or Mars bars but that is a crazy way of

:30:37. > :30:42.bars but that is a crazy way of bars but that is a crazy way of

:30:42. > :30:44.bars but that is a crazy way of doing it. You have to plan and cut

:30:44. > :30:44.doing it. You have to plan and cut doing it. You have to plan and cut

:30:44. > :30:46.doing it. You have to plan and cut out some of the things you can't

:30:46. > :30:47.out some of the things you can't out some of the things you can't

:30:47. > :30:49.afford. Milk is not affordable afford. Milk is not affordable

:30:49. > :30:50.afford. Milk is not affordable afford. Milk is not affordable

:30:50. > :30:51.inside �5 for five days. At porridge inside �5 for five days. At porridge

:30:51. > :30:54.inside �5 for five days. At porridge inside �5 for five days. At porridge

:30:54. > :30:55.is, so I break my lifelong habits is, so I break my lifelong habits

:30:55. > :31:00.is, so I break my lifelong habits and eat porridge. Lentil soup is

:31:00. > :31:02.and eat porridge. Lentil soup is and eat porridge. Lentil soup is

:31:02. > :31:03.and eat porridge. Lentil soup is great. Nutritional as well. It is an

:31:03. > :31:03.great. Nutritional as well. It is an great. Nutritional as well. It is an

:31:03. > :31:04.opportunity to become aware, raise opportunity to become aware, raise

:31:04. > :31:08.opportunity to become aware, raise awareness and raise money, hope

:31:08. > :31:09.awareness and raise money, hope awareness and raise money, hope

:31:09. > :31:11.awareness and raise money, hope fully. There are some recipes on the

:31:11. > :31:12.fully. There are some recipes on the fully. There are some recipes on the

:31:12. > :31:13.charity's website. Are any of them charity's website. Are any of them

:31:13. > :31:14.charity's website. Are any of them actually nice? Depends what you

:31:14. > :31:16.actually nice? Depends what you actually nice? Depends what you

:31:16. > :31:17.actually nice? Depends what you actually nice? Depends what you

:31:17. > :31:17.regard as nice. I make a good pot of regard as nice. I make a good pot of

:31:17. > :31:18.regard as nice. I make a good pot of regard as nice. I make a good pot of

:31:18. > :31:19.lentil soup! I will bring them along lentil soup! I will bring them along

:31:19. > :31:20.lentil soup! I will bring them along lentil soup! I will bring them along

:31:20. > :31:22.to the Politics Show if you want. to the Politics Show if you want.

:31:22. > :31:23.to the Politics Show if you want. to the Politics Show if you want.

:31:23. > :31:24.it hard bring it in an environment it hard bring it in an environment

:31:24. > :31:24.it hard bring it in an environment it hard bring it in an environment

:31:24. > :31:27.like the House of Lords, where there like the House of Lords, where there

:31:27. > :31:29.like the House of Lords, where there like the House of Lords, where there

:31:29. > :31:29.is a lots of nice food? To be is a lots of nice food? To be

:31:29. > :31:31.is a lots of nice food? To be is a lots of nice food? To be

:31:31. > :31:32.honest, I am going to change my five honest, I am going to change my five

:31:32. > :31:35.honest, I am going to change my five days slightly, because there are

:31:35. > :31:35.days slightly, because there are days slightly, because there are

:31:35. > :31:36.days slightly, because there are times when you just can't plan this

:31:36. > :31:38.times when you just can't plan this times when you just can't plan this

:31:38. > :31:39.as part of a normal working as part of a normal working

:31:39. > :31:39.as part of a normal working as part of a normal working

:31:39. > :31:42.routine. But it is possible to find routine. But it is possible to find

:31:42. > :31:43.routine. But it is possible to find routine. But it is possible to find

:31:43. > :31:44.five days to do it within. You have five days to do it within. You have

:31:44. > :31:47.five days to do it within. You have to be disciplined. Last year, we

:31:47. > :31:48.to be disciplined. Last year, we to be disciplined. Last year, we

:31:48. > :31:51.organised a Lords soup kitchen, as organised a Lords soup kitchen, as

:31:51. > :31:51.organised a Lords soup kitchen, as organised a Lords soup kitchen, as

:31:51. > :31:52.it was called. Our nesting Kim, one it was called. Our nesting Kim, one

:31:52. > :31:54.of our fellow participants, of our fellow participants,

:31:54. > :31:59.of our fellow participants, of our fellow participants,

:31:59. > :32:00.organised a group of us to eat every organised a group of us to eat every

:32:01. > :32:01.organised a group of us to eat every day together on some very cheap

:32:01. > :32:03.day together on some very cheap day together on some very cheap

:32:03. > :32:04.things at lunchtime, and that helped things at lunchtime, and that helped

:32:04. > :32:05.things at lunchtime, and that helped things at lunchtime, and that helped

:32:05. > :32:06.us get through the five days. We all us get through the five days. We all

:32:06. > :32:07.us get through the five days. We all us get through the five days. We all

:32:07. > :32:07.do our bit, and there will be a do our bit, and there will be a

:32:07. > :32:10.do our bit, and there will be a do our bit, and there will be a

:32:10. > :32:11.group of us again doing this this group of us again doing this this

:32:11. > :32:12.group of us again doing this this year. Presumably, you can't have any

:32:12. > :32:13.year. Presumably, you can't have any year. Presumably, you can't have any

:32:13. > :32:17.booze because it is too expensive? booze because it is too expensive?

:32:17. > :32:18.booze because it is too expensive? booze because it is too expensive?

:32:18. > :32:19.No booze, no coffee, no milk. Not No booze, no coffee, no milk. Not

:32:19. > :32:21.No booze, no coffee, no milk. Not No booze, no coffee, no milk. Not

:32:21. > :32:22.even milk in the porridge. You just even milk in the porridge. You just

:32:22. > :32:23.even milk in the porridge. You just cannot afford to do certain things.

:32:23. > :32:24.cannot afford to do certain things. cannot afford to do certain things.

:32:24. > :32:25.cannot afford to do certain things. For me, the biggest lesson is the

:32:25. > :32:27.For me, the biggest lesson is the For me, the biggest lesson is the

:32:27. > :32:28.For me, the biggest lesson is the lack of choice. Two years ago, I

:32:28. > :32:29.lack of choice. Two years ago, I lack of choice. Two years ago, I

:32:29. > :32:30.lack of choice. Two years ago, I burnt one of the meals I was

:32:30. > :32:31.burnt one of the meals I was burnt one of the meals I was

:32:31. > :32:33.burnt one of the meals I was cooking. At that point in the day,

:32:33. > :32:34.cooking. At that point in the day, cooking. At that point in the day,

:32:34. > :32:35.cooking. At that point in the day, there was no money left in the kitty

:32:35. > :32:36.there was no money left in the kitty there was no money left in the kitty

:32:36. > :32:37.there was no money left in the kitty to get something else. So it was

:32:37. > :32:39.to get something else. So it was to get something else. So it was

:32:39. > :32:40.to get something else. So it was either eat that or not at all. That

:32:40. > :32:40.either eat that or not at all. That either eat that or not at all. That

:32:40. > :32:41.either eat that or not at all. That is the reality for a billion people

:32:42. > :32:43.is the reality for a billion people is the reality for a billion people

:32:43. > :32:47.is the reality for a billion people around the world. It is good to

:32:47. > :32:50.around the world. It is good to around the world. It is good to

:32:50. > :32:51.learn these lessons. How realistic learn these lessons. How realistic

:32:51. > :32:52.learn these lessons. How realistic learn these lessons. How realistic

:32:52. > :32:53.is this, compared to life in sub is this, compared to life in sub

:32:53. > :32:54.is this, compared to life in sub Saharan Africa? You will still have

:32:54. > :32:56.Saharan Africa? You will still have Saharan Africa? You will still have

:32:56. > :32:57.your electricity, which costs more your electricity, which costs more

:32:57. > :32:58.your electricity, which costs more your electricity, which costs more

:32:58. > :32:59.than �1 a day and your water and than �1 a day and your water and

:32:59. > :33:00.than �1 a day and your water and your sky sports subscription.

:33:00. > :33:02.your sky sports subscription. your sky sports subscription.

:33:02. > :33:05.your sky sports subscription. a campaign, not a life choice. It is

:33:05. > :33:07.a campaign, not a life choice. It is a campaign, not a life choice. It is

:33:07. > :33:07.not absolutely realistic mode but it not absolutely realistic mode but it

:33:08. > :33:09.not absolutely realistic mode but it does raise awareness and money. It

:33:09. > :33:11.does raise awareness and money. It does raise awareness and money. It

:33:11. > :33:14.does raise awareness and money. It is part of a wider campaign by

:33:14. > :33:15.is part of a wider campaign by is part of a wider campaign by

:33:15. > :33:17.everybody involved. Over 30 UK everybody involved. Over 30 UK

:33:17. > :33:18.everybody involved. Over 30 UK charities are involved this year,

:33:18. > :33:19.charities are involved this year, charities are involved this year,

:33:19. > :33:21.charities are involved this year, hoping to raise over �1 million. So

:33:21. > :33:23.hoping to raise over �1 million. So hoping to raise over �1 million. So

:33:23. > :33:24.hoping to raise over �1 million. So there is a bigger picture, but this

:33:24. > :33:25.there is a bigger picture, but this there is a bigger picture, but this

:33:25. > :33:27.there is a bigger picture, but this is one small step along the way to

:33:27. > :33:29.is one small step along the way to is one small step along the way to

:33:29. > :33:30.ending extreme poverty. Good luck. ending extreme poverty. Good luck.

:33:30. > :33:31.ending extreme poverty. Good luck. ending extreme poverty. Good luck.

:33:31. > :33:33.Hope you don't get too hungry or too Hope you don't get too hungry or too

:33:33. > :33:33.Hope you don't get too hungry or too tired. The campaign starts on the

:33:33. > :33:35.tired. The campaign starts on the tired. The campaign starts on the

:33:35. > :33:36.tired. The campaign starts on the 29th of April. It is being launched

:33:36. > :33:37.29th of April. It is being launched 29th of April. It is being launched

:33:37. > :33:38.today, and Jack will change the today, and Jack will change the

:33:38. > :33:39.today, and Jack will change the today, and Jack will change the

:33:39. > :33:40.dates so that he does not miss out dates so that he does not miss out

:33:40. > :33:44.on any nice dinners. on any nice dinners.

:33:44. > :33:47.on any nice dinners. You should do it too, Adam.

:33:47. > :33:48.You should do it too, Adam. You should do it too, Adam.

:33:48. > :33:50.Julia, is it a worthwhile campaign? Julia, is it a worthwhile campaign?

:33:50. > :33:50.Julia, is it a worthwhile campaign? Julia, is it a worthwhile campaign?

:33:50. > :33:52.It is a worthwhile campaign. It is It is a worthwhile campaign. It is

:33:52. > :33:53.It is a worthwhile campaign. It is not realistic. It does not include

:33:53. > :33:54.not realistic. It does not include not realistic. It does not include

:33:54. > :33:54.not realistic. It does not include fuel costs and people are doing it

:33:54. > :33:55.fuel costs and people are doing it fuel costs and people are doing it

:33:55. > :33:56.fuel costs and people are doing it for five days and they can look

:33:56. > :33:56.for five days and they can look for five days and they can look

:33:56. > :33:59.for five days and they can look forward to the booze and fags and

:33:59. > :34:00.forward to the booze and fags and forward to the booze and fags and

:34:01. > :34:02.forward to the booze and fags and whatever at the end. In my view, it

:34:02. > :34:03.whatever at the end. In my view, it whatever at the end. In my view, it

:34:03. > :34:05.is hugely important for raising is hugely important for raising

:34:05. > :34:06.is hugely important for raising awareness. It is fantastically good

:34:06. > :34:06.awareness. It is fantastically good awareness. It is fantastically good

:34:06. > :34:08.awareness. It is fantastically good discipline and it is great as a

:34:08. > :34:08.discipline and it is great as a discipline and it is great as a

:34:08. > :34:11.fundraiser. The money you don't fundraiser. The money you don't

:34:11. > :34:12.fundraiser. The money you don't fundraiser. The money you don't

:34:12. > :34:13.spend on food, you then give to the spend on food, you then give to the

:34:13. > :34:14.spend on food, you then give to the spend on food, you then give to the

:34:14. > :34:17.campaign. Does it mimic what goes on campaign. Does it mimic what goes on

:34:17. > :34:18.campaign. Does it mimic what goes on in sub Saharan Africa? No.

:34:18. > :34:19.in sub Saharan Africa? No. in sub Saharan Africa? No.

:34:19. > :34:20.in sub Saharan Africa? No. The war in Iraq had a dramatic

:34:20. > :34:21.The war in Iraq had a dramatic The war in Iraq had a dramatic

:34:21. > :34:22.effect on politics and diplomacy in effect on politics and diplomacy in

:34:22. > :34:23.effect on politics and diplomacy in effect on politics and diplomacy in

:34:23. > :34:25.this country, in the Middle East and this country, in the Middle East and

:34:25. > :34:25.this country, in the Middle East and this country, in the Middle East and

:34:25. > :34:26.across the globe. Ten years on, its across the globe. Ten years on, its

:34:26. > :34:27.across the globe. Ten years on, its power to provoke controversy and

:34:27. > :34:28.power to provoke controversy and power to provoke controversy and

:34:29. > :34:29.heated debate has barely diminished, heated debate has barely diminished,

:34:29. > :34:31.heated debate has barely diminished, heated debate has barely diminished,

:34:31. > :34:31.but what has its impact been on Iraq but what has its impact been on Iraq

:34:31. > :34:32.but what has its impact been on Iraq but what has its impact been on Iraq

:34:32. > :34:36.itself and on the way the world itself and on the way the world

:34:36. > :34:45.itself and on the way the world deals with to spot regimes?

:34:45. > :34:46.deals with to spot regimes? deals with to spot regimes?

:34:46. > :34:46.-- despotic regimes. I have long -- despotic regimes. I have long

:34:46. > :34:47.-- despotic regimes. I have long -- despotic regimes. I have long

:34:47. > :34:49.since given up on try to persuade since given up on try to persuade

:34:49. > :34:49.since given up on try to persuade people it was the right decision.

:34:49. > :34:52.people it was the right decision. people it was the right decision.

:34:52. > :34:53.people it was the right decision. Now I am trying to persuade people

:34:53. > :34:53.Now I am trying to persuade people Now I am trying to persuade people

:34:53. > :34:56.to understand how complex and to understand how complex and

:34:56. > :35:00.to understand how complex and to understand how complex and

:35:00. > :35:00.difficult a decision it was. 100 and difficult a decision it was. 100 and

:35:00. > :35:02.difficult a decision it was. 100 and certain -- 179 British personnel

:35:02. > :35:04.certain -- 179 British personnel certain -- 179 British personnel

:35:04. > :35:05.killed, a financial cost of more killed, a financial cost of more

:35:05. > :35:07.killed, a financial cost of more than �9 billion and perhaps more

:35:07. > :35:07.than �9 billion and perhaps more than �9 billion and perhaps more

:35:07. > :35:08.than 120,000 civilian lives lost than 120,000 civilian lives lost

:35:08. > :35:10.than 120,000 civilian lives lost than 120,000 civilian lives lost

:35:10. > :35:14.since the war began. Ten years on, since the war began. Ten years on,

:35:14. > :35:14.since the war began. Ten years on, since the war began. Ten years on,

:35:14. > :35:15.what have we learned from Iraq? what have we learned from Iraq?

:35:15. > :35:17.what have we learned from Iraq? we look back over the interventions

:35:17. > :35:19.we look back over the interventions we look back over the interventions

:35:19. > :35:20.of the last decade, starting with of the last decade, starting with

:35:20. > :35:22.of the last decade, starting with Iraq in 2003, the most important

:35:22. > :35:24.Iraq in 2003, the most important Iraq in 2003, the most important

:35:24. > :35:25.point that comes through is the point that comes through is the

:35:25. > :35:25.point that comes through is the understanding that the military are

:35:25. > :35:28.understanding that the military are understanding that the military are

:35:28. > :35:29.understanding that the military are only part of the solution. They can

:35:29. > :35:30.only part of the solution. They can only part of the solution. They can

:35:30. > :35:31.only part of the solution. They can kick the door in, of course, but

:35:31. > :35:31.kick the door in, of course, but kick the door in, of course, but

:35:31. > :35:34.kick the door in, of course, but somebody else has to go through the

:35:34. > :35:36.somebody else has to go through the door politically with developmental

:35:36. > :35:37.door politically with developmental door politically with developmental

:35:37. > :35:37.door politically with developmental aid, and it has to be toward elated.

:35:38. > :35:38.aid, and it has to be toward elated. aid, and it has to be toward elated.

:35:38. > :35:40.aid, and it has to be toward elated. We have learned time and time again

:35:40. > :35:40.We have learned time and time again We have learned time and time again

:35:40. > :35:42.We have learned time and time again that after the first six or eight

:35:42. > :35:43.that after the first six or eight months, the international community

:35:43. > :35:45.months, the international community months, the international community

:35:45. > :35:45.has usually become part of the has usually become part of the

:35:45. > :35:46.has usually become part of the solution -- part of the problem

:35:46. > :35:48.solution -- part of the problem solution -- part of the problem

:35:48. > :35:49.solution -- part of the problem rather than part of the solution. If

:35:49. > :35:49.rather than part of the solution. If rather than part of the solution. If

:35:49. > :35:52.we had not removed Saddam Hussein we had not removed Saddam Hussein

:35:52. > :35:53.we had not removed Saddam Hussein from power, think what would be

:35:53. > :35:56.from power, think what would be happening with these Arab

:35:56. > :35:57.happening with these Arab happening with these Arab

:35:57. > :35:58.revolutions. Saddam Hussein was 20 revolutions. Saddam Hussein was 20

:35:58. > :36:01.revolutions. Saddam Hussein was 20 revolutions. Saddam Hussein was 20

:36:01. > :36:02.times as bad as President Assad in times as bad as President Assad in

:36:02. > :36:03.times as bad as President Assad in Syria. Think of the consequences of

:36:03. > :36:06.Syria. Think of the consequences of Syria. Think of the consequences of

:36:06. > :36:09.leaving that regime in power. leaving that regime in power.

:36:09. > :36:10.leaving that regime in power. many ways, the Iraqi intervention

:36:10. > :36:12.many ways, the Iraqi intervention many ways, the Iraqi intervention

:36:12. > :36:13.many ways, the Iraqi intervention came ten years or more too late.

:36:13. > :36:14.came ten years or more too late. came ten years or more too late.

:36:14. > :36:15.There was a window of opportunity There was a window of opportunity

:36:15. > :36:17.There was a window of opportunity There was a window of opportunity

:36:17. > :36:18.after the first Gulf War in 1991, after the first Gulf War in 1991,

:36:18. > :36:19.after the first Gulf War in 1991, when the majority of the population

:36:19. > :36:22.when the majority of the population when the majority of the population

:36:22. > :36:22.when the majority of the population rose up against Saddam. That was the

:36:22. > :36:23.rose up against Saddam. That was the rose up against Saddam. That was the

:36:23. > :36:24.plan they required support from the plan they required support from the

:36:24. > :36:27.international community. Ten years international community. Ten years

:36:27. > :36:29.international community. Ten years on, it was mislabelled as an

:36:29. > :36:30.on, it was mislabelled as an on, it was mislabelled as an

:36:30. > :36:30.intervention for weapons of mass intervention for weapons of mass

:36:30. > :36:35.destruction that ultimately were destruction that ultimately were

:36:35. > :36:36.destruction that ultimately were never found, and that tarnished the

:36:36. > :36:37.never found, and that tarnished the image of humanitarian intervention.

:36:37. > :36:38.image of humanitarian intervention. image of humanitarian intervention.

:36:38. > :36:41.That is to the detriment of That is to the detriment of

:36:41. > :36:42.That is to the detriment of countries such as Syria now.

:36:42. > :36:42.countries such as Syria now. countries such as Syria now.

:36:42. > :36:44.According to Iraq body can, the According to Iraq body can, the

:36:44. > :36:45.According to Iraq body can, the number of violence of Ilion deaths

:36:45. > :36:48.number of violence of Ilion deaths number of violence of Ilion deaths

:36:48. > :36:51.number of violence of Ilion deaths in Iraq in 2012 rose for the first

:36:51. > :36:52.in Iraq in 2012 rose for the first in Iraq in 2012 rose for the first

:36:52. > :36:55.in Iraq in 2012 rose for the first time in 23 years. Is there really

:36:55. > :36:56.time in 23 years. Is there really time in 23 years. Is there really

:36:56. > :36:58.time in 23 years. Is there really progress? In Iraq, you can see a

:36:58. > :36:59.progress? In Iraq, you can see a progress? In Iraq, you can see a

:36:59. > :37:00.sort of disordered success. We sort of disordered success. We

:37:00. > :37:02.sort of disordered success. We sort of disordered success. We

:37:02. > :37:04.should not be deceived by the degree should not be deceived by the degree

:37:04. > :37:04.should not be deceived by the degree of violence into thinking that the

:37:05. > :37:06.of violence into thinking that the of violence into thinking that the

:37:06. > :37:07.place is not potentially rich, place is not potentially rich,

:37:07. > :37:08.place is not potentially rich, because it is. A lot of

:37:08. > :37:09.because it is. A lot of because it is. A lot of

:37:09. > :37:10.international companies say that and international companies say that and

:37:10. > :37:11.international companies say that and reckon they can live with the

:37:11. > :37:15.reckon they can live with the reckon they can live with the

:37:15. > :37:16.disorder and invest in the country. disorder and invest in the country.

:37:16. > :37:18.The infrastructure is still The infrastructure is still

:37:18. > :37:20.struggling. The political situation struggling. The political situation

:37:20. > :37:21.struggling. The political situation struggling. The political situation

:37:21. > :37:25.is still critical. To be honest, its is still critical. To be honest, its

:37:25. > :37:26.is still critical. To be honest, its future remains uncertain. But Iraq

:37:26. > :37:29.future remains uncertain. But Iraq future remains uncertain. But Iraq

:37:29. > :37:30.is not passive bystanders any more. is not passive bystanders any more.

:37:30. > :37:31.is not passive bystanders any more. is not passive bystanders any more.

:37:31. > :37:32.They are part of the new democracy, They are part of the new democracy,

:37:32. > :37:33.They are part of the new democracy, They are part of the new democracy,

:37:33. > :37:34.They are part of the new democracy, and I can help shape it. That is a

:37:34. > :37:34.and I can help shape it. That is a and I can help shape it. That is a

:37:34. > :37:36.and I can help shape it. That is a very big difference to how it was

:37:36. > :37:37.very big difference to how it was very big difference to how it was

:37:37. > :37:38.ten years ago. Perhaps the most ten years ago. Perhaps the most

:37:38. > :37:40.ten years ago. Perhaps the most surprising lesson from Iraq Daschle

:37:40. > :37:41.surprising lesson from Iraq Daschle surprising lesson from Iraq Daschle

:37:41. > :37:42.surprising lesson from Iraq Daschle rule nothing out. I have lived my

:37:42. > :37:44.rule nothing out. I have lived my rule nothing out. I have lived my

:37:44. > :37:45.life in the analysis business, life in the analysis business,

:37:45. > :37:46.life in the analysis business, predict that the next five years

:37:46. > :37:48.predict that the next five years predict that the next five years

:37:48. > :37:49.will not see much military will not see much military

:37:49. > :37:50.will not see much military intervention, and then the next five

:37:50. > :37:52.intervention, and then the next five years have been extraordinarily

:37:52. > :37:53.years have been extraordinarily years have been extraordinarily

:37:53. > :37:54.busy. You can never rule these busy. You can never rule these

:37:54. > :37:55.things out, particularly when things out, particularly when

:37:55. > :37:56.things out, particularly when talking about the changes taking

:37:56. > :37:58.talking about the changes taking talking about the changes taking

:37:58. > :38:00.talking about the changes taking place in the Middle East, which are

:38:00. > :38:02.place in the Middle East, which are fundamental at the moment.

:38:02. > :38:03.fundamental at the moment. fundamental at the moment.

:38:03. > :38:04.fundamental at the moment. I am now going by the Conservative

:38:04. > :38:04.I am now going by the Conservative I am now going by the Conservative

:38:04. > :38:07.backbencher Bernard Jenkin and John backbencher Bernard Jenkin and John

:38:07. > :38:08.backbencher Bernard Jenkin and John Kampfner, author of the book Blair's

:38:08. > :38:08.Kampfner, author of the book Blair's Kampfner, author of the book Blair's

:38:08. > :38:09.Wars and presenter of How Iraq Wars and presenter of How Iraq

:38:09. > :38:10.Wars and presenter of How Iraq Wars and presenter of How Iraq

:38:10. > :38:12.Changed The World, which is on radio Changed The World, which is on radio

:38:12. > :38:13.four this evening. four this evening.

:38:13. > :38:14.four this evening. four this evening.

:38:14. > :38:16.Is the world a safer place as a Is the world a safer place as a

:38:16. > :38:19.Is the world a safer place as a result of the Iraq war? Emphatically

:38:19. > :38:20.result of the Iraq war? Emphatically result of the Iraq war? Emphatically

:38:20. > :38:22.result of the Iraq war? Emphatically not. The audit I did for my program

:38:22. > :38:24.not. The audit I did for my program not. The audit I did for my program

:38:24. > :38:26.not. The audit I did for my program goes through all the areas. One of

:38:26. > :38:27.goes through all the areas. One of the most important negative

:38:27. > :38:30.the most important negative the most important negative

:38:30. > :38:35.the most important negative consequences is the rise of Iran. By

:38:35. > :38:36.consequences is the rise of Iran. By consequences is the rise of Iran. By

:38:36. > :38:37.giving enormous regional power to giving enormous regional power to

:38:37. > :38:39.giving enormous regional power to giving enormous regional power to

:38:39. > :38:40.the adversarial to the West and to the adversarial to the West and to

:38:40. > :38:44.the adversarial to the West and to Israel, that was always greater than

:38:44. > :38:45.Israel, that was always greater than Israel, that was always greater than

:38:45. > :38:46.Iraq was, the Israelis were trying Iraq was, the Israelis were trying

:38:46. > :38:49.Iraq was, the Israelis were trying to deter the Americans from going

:38:49. > :38:50.to deter the Americans from going to deter the Americans from going

:38:50. > :38:51.into Iraq, saying, number where the into Iraq, saying, number where the

:38:51. > :38:52.into Iraq, saying, number where the into Iraq, saying, number where the

:38:52. > :38:53.bigger prize. You would have a more bigger prize. You would have a more

:38:53. > :38:56.bigger prize. You would have a more Iraq. You have aimed United States

:38:56. > :38:57.Iraq. You have aimed United States Iraq. You have aimed United States

:38:57. > :38:58.Iraq. You have aimed United States much less confident than it used to

:38:58. > :38:59.much less confident than it used to much less confident than it used to

:38:59. > :38:59.much less confident than it used to be. You have a United Nations that

:38:59. > :39:03.be. You have a United Nations that be. You have a United Nations that

:39:03. > :39:04.be. You have a United Nations that now, as a result of Iraq, you will

:39:04. > :39:05.now, as a result of Iraq, you will now, as a result of Iraq, you will

:39:05. > :39:07.get nothing significant to Russia or get nothing significant to Russia or

:39:07. > :39:09.get nothing significant to Russia or China. So you have diplomatic

:39:09. > :39:11.China. So you have diplomatic China. So you have diplomatic

:39:11. > :39:13.China. So you have diplomatic wedlock, and I am afraid the real

:39:13. > :39:13.wedlock, and I am afraid the real wedlock, and I am afraid the real

:39:13. > :39:14.consequence is the theory of liberal consequence is the theory of liberal

:39:14. > :39:16.consequence is the theory of liberal intervention, which I have always

:39:16. > :39:17.intervention, which I have always intervention, which I have always

:39:17. > :39:18.supported, which is to intervene by supported, which is to intervene by

:39:18. > :39:19.supported, which is to intervene by supported, which is to intervene by

:39:19. > :39:20.all kinds of deft ways to undermine all kinds of deft ways to undermine

:39:20. > :39:21.all kinds of deft ways to undermine those leaders around the world to

:39:21. > :39:22.those leaders around the world to those leaders around the world to

:39:22. > :39:23.those leaders around the world to abuse human rights. Is it time to

:39:23. > :39:25.abuse human rights. Is it time to abuse human rights. Is it time to

:39:25. > :39:27.abuse human rights. Is it time to admit it was a huge mistake was Mac

:39:27. > :39:27.admit it was a huge mistake was Mac admit it was a huge mistake was Mac

:39:27. > :39:28.admit it was a huge mistake was Mac no, it isn't. I was shadow defence

:39:28. > :39:29.no, it isn't. I was shadow defence no, it isn't. I was shadow defence

:39:29. > :39:30.no, it isn't. I was shadow defence secretary at the time and was very

:39:30. > :39:33.secretary at the time and was very secretary at the time and was very

:39:33. > :39:34.close to all these events. In close to all these events. In

:39:34. > :39:35.close to all these events. In close to all these events. In

:39:35. > :39:35.reacting to what John says, one of reacting to what John says, one of

:39:36. > :39:38.reacting to what John says, one of reacting to what John says, one of

:39:38. > :39:38.the things the opponents of the war the things the opponents of the war

:39:38. > :39:40.the things the opponents of the war despise the government and the

:39:40. > :39:43.despise the government and the despise the government and the

:39:43. > :39:44.despise the government and the Americans for is for using Iraq as a

:39:44. > :39:48.Americans for is for using Iraq as a Americans for is for using Iraq as a

:39:48. > :39:49.tool of Western foreign policy tool of Western foreign policy

:39:49. > :39:52.tool of Western foreign policy against Iran. We did test that

:39:52. > :39:53.against Iran. We did test that against Iran. We did test that

:39:53. > :39:54.policy to destruction. To the policy to destruction. To the

:39:54. > :39:56.policy to destruction. To the detriment of Western credibility in

:39:56. > :39:59.detriment of Western credibility in detriment of Western credibility in

:39:59. > :40:00.the Middle East, to support one the Middle East, to support one

:40:00. > :40:01.the Middle East, to support one ghastly dictator... Which was what

:40:01. > :40:02.ghastly dictator... Which was what ghastly dictator... Which was what

:40:02. > :40:07.ghastly dictator... Which was what Tony Blair set, too. It does not add

:40:07. > :40:08.Tony Blair set, too. It does not add Tony Blair set, too. It does not add

:40:08. > :40:10.Tony Blair set, too. It does not add up. It is tempting to say, we

:40:10. > :40:11.up. It is tempting to say, we up. It is tempting to say, we

:40:11. > :40:13.toppled Saddam Hussein, and all toppled Saddam Hussein, and all

:40:13. > :40:15.toppled Saddam Hussein, and all these things have happened since.

:40:15. > :40:15.these things have happened since. Whether those things are

:40:15. > :40:17.Whether those things are consequences of toppling Saddam

:40:17. > :40:18.consequences of toppling Saddam consequences of toppling Saddam

:40:18. > :40:19.Hussein, what would have happened if Hussein, what would have happened if

:40:19. > :40:20.Hussein, what would have happened if he had been toppled ten years

:40:20. > :40:26.he had been toppled ten years he had been toppled ten years

:40:26. > :40:27.earlier, as that person suggested? earlier, as that person suggested?

:40:27. > :40:30.earlier, as that person suggested? In Iraq, there were 2-macro

:40:30. > :40:33.In Iraq, there were 2-macro failures, firstly that the

:40:33. > :40:34.failures, firstly that the centre-left establishment in the

:40:34. > :40:34.centre-left establishment in the centre-left establishment in the

:40:34. > :40:38.world, particularly Britain and the world, particularly Britain and the

:40:38. > :40:41.world, particularly Britain and the United States, obsessed about the

:40:41. > :40:41.United States, obsessed about the United States, obsessed about the

:40:41. > :40:43.legitimacy of this toppling instead legitimacy of this toppling instead

:40:43. > :40:45.legitimacy of this toppling instead of being obsessed about what we

:40:45. > :40:47.of being obsessed about what we of being obsessed about what we

:40:47. > :40:48.would do afterwards. There was so would do afterwards. There was so

:40:48. > :40:49.would do afterwards. There was so little analysis done on what would

:40:49. > :40:51.little analysis done on what would little analysis done on what would

:40:51. > :40:52.little analysis done on what would happen once we got in that if

:40:52. > :40:53.happen once we got in that if happen once we got in that if

:40:53. > :40:54.Margaret Thatcher had been prime Margaret Thatcher had been prime

:40:54. > :40:55.Margaret Thatcher had been prime minister, she would have gone over

:40:55. > :40:55.minister, she would have gone over minister, she would have gone over

:40:55. > :40:56.minister, she would have gone over to see George Bush and said, look,

:40:56. > :40:57.to see George Bush and said, look, to see George Bush and said, look,

:40:57. > :40:58.to see George Bush and said, look, to see George Bush and said, look,

:40:58. > :40:59.we will not go in until we have got we will not go in until we have got

:40:59. > :41:00.we will not go in until we have got we will not go in until we have got

:41:00. > :41:02.this sorted out. But all Tony Blair this sorted out. But all Tony Blair

:41:02. > :41:03.this sorted out. But all Tony Blair wanted to talk about was UN

:41:03. > :41:05.wanted to talk about was UN resolutions and this left-wing

:41:05. > :41:06.resolutions and this left-wing preoccupation with legitimacy when

:41:06. > :41:06.preoccupation with legitimacy when preoccupation with legitimacy when

:41:06. > :41:09.preoccupation with legitimacy when in the end, there was no difficulty

:41:09. > :41:10.in the end, there was no difficulty in the end, there was no difficulty

:41:10. > :41:12.in the end, there was no difficulty with that. In that film, when you

:41:12. > :41:12.with that. In that film, when you with that. In that film, when you

:41:12. > :41:14.with that. In that film, when you hear the guy at the end say the

:41:14. > :41:15.hear the guy at the end say the hear the guy at the end say the

:41:15. > :41:15.Iraqis are no longer passive Iraqis are no longer passive

:41:15. > :41:17.Iraqis are no longer passive bystanders, surely that is a

:41:17. > :41:20.bystanders, surely that is a bystanders, surely that is a

:41:20. > :41:21.positive thing, that there have been positive thing, that there have been

:41:21. > :41:22.positive thing, that there have been positive consequences to the Iraq

:41:22. > :41:23.positive consequences to the Iraq positive consequences to the Iraq

:41:23. > :41:26.war for Iraqis themselves? Of course war for Iraqis themselves? Of course

:41:26. > :41:27.war for Iraqis themselves? Of course there have been some positive

:41:27. > :41:29.there have been some positive there have been some positive

:41:29. > :41:30.consequences and some very negative consequences and some very negative

:41:30. > :41:33.consequences and some very negative consequences and some very negative

:41:33. > :41:34.ones. It is always a mixed picture. ones. It is always a mixed picture.

:41:34. > :41:35.ones. It is always a mixed picture. ones. It is always a mixed picture.

:41:35. > :41:37.The real problem was that there was The real problem was that there was

:41:37. > :41:38.The real problem was that there was no thinking about what happens after

:41:38. > :41:38.no thinking about what happens after no thinking about what happens after

:41:38. > :41:40.the intervention, and that happens the intervention, and that happens

:41:40. > :41:43.the intervention, and that happens the intervention, and that happens

:41:43. > :41:44.time and time again. We are very bad time and time again. We are very bad

:41:44. > :41:45.time and time again. We are very bad time and time again. We are very bad

:41:45. > :41:48.at that. At the risk of flooding my at that. At the risk of flooding my

:41:48. > :41:49.at that. At the risk of flooding my own program, Tony Blair admits this

:41:49. > :41:49.own program, Tony Blair admits this own program, Tony Blair admits this

:41:49. > :41:52.in the interview. Does that mean in the interview. Does that mean

:41:52. > :41:53.in the interview. Does that mean in the interview. Does that mean

:41:53. > :41:54.they should not have gone in? they should not have gone in?

:41:54. > :41:56.they should not have gone in? they should not have gone in?

:41:56. > :41:57.paradox was that he was saying yes, paradox was that he was saying yes,

:41:57. > :41:58.we underestimated the sectarian we underestimated the sectarian

:41:58. > :41:59.we underestimated the sectarian tensions, we thought it would be

:41:59. > :41:59.tensions, we thought it would be tensions, we thought it would be

:41:59. > :42:02.tensions, we thought it would be like Kosovo and we would just get

:42:02. > :42:05.like Kosovo and we would just get like Kosovo and we would just get

:42:05. > :42:06.like Kosovo and we would just get in, toppled a bad guy. They knew

:42:06. > :42:08.in, toppled a bad guy. They knew in, toppled a bad guy. They knew

:42:08. > :42:09.in, toppled a bad guy. They knew that was not true. And Tony Blair

:42:09. > :42:10.that was not true. And Tony Blair dismissed those people as

:42:10. > :42:12.dismissed those people as dismissed those people as

:42:12. > :42:13.defeatists. It is an interesting defeatists. It is an interesting

:42:13. > :42:14.defeatists. It is an interesting question about how government does

:42:14. > :42:16.question about how government does question about how government does

:42:16. > :42:16.question about how government does strategy. I was in Basra three weeks

:42:16. > :42:17.strategy. I was in Basra three weeks strategy. I was in Basra three weeks

:42:17. > :42:18.after the invasion, and it was after the invasion, and it was

:42:18. > :42:21.after the invasion, and it was after the invasion, and it was

:42:21. > :42:21.obvious that we were in that 100 a obvious that we were in that 100 a

:42:21. > :42:22.obvious that we were in that 100 a period, and the Saudi militias now

:42:22. > :42:25.period, and the Saudi militias now period, and the Saudi militias now

:42:25. > :42:26.period, and the Saudi militias now had a free hand to come over. There

:42:26. > :42:27.had a free hand to come over. There had a free hand to come over. There

:42:27. > :42:27.had a free hand to come over. There was no attempt to close the border

:42:27. > :42:29.was no attempt to close the border was no attempt to close the border

:42:29. > :42:30.was no attempt to close the border with Iran. I wrote a note for the

:42:30. > :42:30.with Iran. I wrote a note for the with Iran. I wrote a note for the

:42:30. > :42:33.shadow cabinet, saying, there is shadow cabinet, saying, there is

:42:33. > :42:34.shadow cabinet, saying, there is shadow cabinet, saying, there is

:42:34. > :42:34.going to be an insurgency and we going to be an insurgency and we

:42:34. > :42:35.going to be an insurgency and we will be fighting a counterinsurgency

:42:35. > :42:38.will be fighting a counterinsurgency will be fighting a counterinsurgency

:42:38. > :42:38.will be fighting a counterinsurgency war. Nobody wanted to know. I told

:42:38. > :42:40.war. Nobody wanted to know. I told war. Nobody wanted to know. I told

:42:40. > :42:45.war. Nobody wanted to know. I told Jeff who what was going on. They

:42:45. > :42:46.Jeff who what was going on. They Jeff who what was going on. They

:42:46. > :42:49.Jeff who what was going on. They never want to know. It is a real

:42:49. > :42:50.never want to know. It is a real never want to know. It is a real

:42:50. > :42:51.never want to know. It is a real failure of the way the top of

:42:51. > :42:53.failure of the way the top of government operates under all

:42:53. > :42:53.government operates under all government operates under all

:42:53. > :42:55.government operates under all parties. It has to get better. It is

:42:55. > :42:55.parties. It has to get better. It is parties. It has to get better. It is

:42:55. > :42:58.parties. It has to get better. It is slightly better now that we have the

:42:58. > :42:59.slightly better now that we have the National Security Council. Equally,

:42:59. > :43:00.National Security Council. Equally, National Security Council. Equally,

:43:00. > :43:01.National Security Council. Equally, National Security Council. Equally,

:43:01. > :43:02.it seems to me that there is a real it seems to me that there is a real

:43:02. > :43:02.it seems to me that there is a real it seems to me that there is a real

:43:02. > :43:04.it seems to me that there is a real problem. I am sure you will say I am

:43:04. > :43:05.problem. I am sure you will say I am problem. I am sure you will say I am

:43:05. > :43:07.centre-left, but there is a problem centre-left, but there is a problem

:43:07. > :43:07.centre-left, but there is a problem centre-left, but there is a problem

:43:07. > :43:09.centre-left, but there is a problem for a lot of us in saying, was there

:43:09. > :43:10.for a lot of us in saying, was there for a lot of us in saying, was there

:43:10. > :43:12.a justification for going in? When a justification for going in? When

:43:12. > :43:13.a justification for going in? When the justification you are giving --

:43:13. > :43:14.the justification you are giving -- the justification you are giving --

:43:14. > :43:15.Devon is weapons of mass destruction Devon is weapons of mass destruction

:43:15. > :43:16.Devon is weapons of mass destruction Devon is weapons of mass destruction

:43:16. > :43:17.and they were not there, it is and they were not there, it is

:43:17. > :43:19.and they were not there, it is difficult to have faith in a

:43:19. > :43:20.difficult to have faith in a difficult to have faith in a

:43:20. > :43:21.government that does that. There was government that does that. There was

:43:21. > :43:23.government that does that. There was plenty of merit in Andrew

:43:23. > :43:24.plenty of merit in Andrew Gilligan's story. It is

:43:24. > :43:25.Gilligan's story. It is Gilligan's story. It is

:43:25. > :43:26.extraordinary that the Hutton story extraordinary that the Hutton story

:43:26. > :43:27.extraordinary that the Hutton story extraordinary that the Hutton story

:43:27. > :43:28.turned out as it did. But the point turned out as it did. But the point

:43:28. > :43:29.turned out as it did. But the point about weapons of mass destruction

:43:29. > :43:33.about weapons of mass destruction about weapons of mass destruction

:43:33. > :43:36.about weapons of mass destruction was that that thing came became so

:43:36. > :43:37.was that that thing came became so was that that thing came became so

:43:37. > :43:43.overrate -- over egged. There were overrate -- over egged. There were

:43:43. > :43:44.overrate -- over egged. There were 22 UN military resolutions. In my

:43:44. > :43:45.22 UN military resolutions. In my 22 UN military resolutions. In my

:43:45. > :43:45.22 UN military resolutions. In my program, I was not trying to revisit

:43:45. > :43:47.program, I was not trying to revisit program, I was not trying to revisit

:43:47. > :43:48.program, I was not trying to revisit all the questions of the legality of

:43:48. > :43:55.all the questions of the legality of all the questions of the legality of

:43:55. > :43:56.weapons of mass destruction and all weapons of mass destruction and all

:43:56. > :43:56.weapons of mass destruction and all weapons of mass destruction and all

:43:56. > :43:58.that stuff. When is that going to that stuff. When is that going to

:43:58. > :44:00.that stuff. When is that going to come out? That is an interesting

:44:00. > :44:03.come out? That is an interesting come out? That is an interesting

:44:03. > :44:04.come out? That is an interesting story. I was looking at starting at

:44:04. > :44:06.story. I was looking at starting at story. I was looking at starting at

:44:06. > :44:08.story. I was looking at starting at year zero, shock and awe, the 19th

:44:08. > :44:09.year zero, shock and awe, the 19th year zero, shock and awe, the 19th

:44:09. > :44:12.year zero, shock and awe, the 19th of March, 2003. On that point until

:44:12. > :44:15.of March, 2003. On that point until of March, 2003. On that point until

:44:15. > :44:16.now, has Iraq improved global now, has Iraq improved global

:44:16. > :44:17.now, has Iraq improved global now, has Iraq improved global

:44:17. > :44:20.security? But can you judge it? It security? But can you judge it? It

:44:20. > :44:21.security? But can you judge it? It is impossible to know. The great

:44:21. > :44:24.is impossible to know. The great is impossible to know. The great

:44:24. > :44:24.is impossible to know. The great sadness is that it is harder now.

:44:24. > :44:26.sadness is that it is harder now. sadness is that it is harder now.

:44:26. > :44:29.sadness is that it is harder now. You will not see boots on the

:44:29. > :44:29.You will not see boots on the You will not see boots on the

:44:29. > :44:30.ground, American or British. Obama ground, American or British. Obama

:44:30. > :44:31.ground, American or British. Obama ground, American or British. Obama

:44:31. > :44:34.has said a decade of war has has said a decade of war has

:44:34. > :44:35.has said a decade of war has finished. We will have far less

:44:35. > :44:37.finished. We will have far less finished. We will have far less

:44:37. > :44:38.interesting and public support for interesting and public support for

:44:38. > :44:46.interesting and public support for intervention in the cause of human

:44:46. > :44:47.intervention in the cause of human intervention in the cause of human

:44:47. > :44:47.intervention in the cause of human rights. Has it made the UK reticent

:44:47. > :44:54.rights. Has it made the UK reticent about liberal intervention?

:44:54. > :44:55.about liberal intervention? about liberal intervention?

:44:55. > :44:55.Objectively, as you heard, talking Objectively, as you heard, talking

:44:55. > :44:57.Objectively, as you heard, talking to former dissidents, they are

:44:57. > :45:07.to former dissidents, they are to former dissidents, they are

:45:07. > :45:08.positive about the future of Iraq. positive about the future of Iraq.

:45:08. > :45:09.positive about the future of Iraq. positive about the future of Iraq.

:45:09. > :45:12.At least once we got going in Iraq, At least once we got going in Iraq,

:45:12. > :45:13.At least once we got going in Iraq, At least once we got going in Iraq,

:45:13. > :45:18.we had a political plan, which the we had a political plan, which the

:45:18. > :45:19.we had a political plan, which the military were able to support.

:45:19. > :45:21.military were able to support. military were able to support.

:45:21. > :45:22.of the sadness is about Afghanistan, of the sadness is about Afghanistan,

:45:22. > :45:23.of the sadness is about Afghanistan, of the sadness is about Afghanistan,

:45:23. > :45:24.in the first two years before they in the first two years before they

:45:24. > :45:25.in the first two years before they in the first two years before they

:45:25. > :45:27.focused on Iraq and took their ire focused on Iraq and took their ire

:45:27. > :45:28.focused on Iraq and took their ire focused on Iraq and took their ire

:45:28. > :45:29.the ball, there was the beginning of the ball, there was the beginning of

:45:29. > :45:30.the ball, there was the beginning of something better. The failure is

:45:30. > :45:31.something better. The failure is something better. The failure is

:45:31. > :45:36.something better. The failure is partly to do with the fact they on

:45:36. > :45:37.partly to do with the fact they on partly to do with the fact they on

:45:37. > :45:38.Iraq. On this idea that Britain Iraq. On this idea that Britain

:45:38. > :45:39.Iraq. On this idea that Britain Iraq. On this idea that Britain

:45:39. > :45:40.might have lost its nerve in terms might have lost its nerve in terms

:45:40. > :45:41.might have lost its nerve in terms of intervention, do you think that

:45:42. > :45:43.of intervention, do you think that of intervention, do you think that

:45:43. > :45:44.of intervention, do you think that is the case and that there should be

:45:44. > :45:44.is the case and that there should be is the case and that there should be

:45:44. > :45:49.is the case and that there should be intervention in a more robust way in

:45:49. > :45:51.intervention in a more robust way in intervention in a more robust way in

:45:51. > :45:52.intervention in a more robust way in Syria? I do, I think it is often

:45:52. > :45:53.Syria? I do, I think it is often Syria? I do, I think it is often

:45:53. > :45:54.Syria? I do, I think it is often right to intervene, but if you are

:45:54. > :45:54.right to intervene, but if you are right to intervene, but if you are

:45:55. > :45:55.right to intervene, but if you are going to intervene you have to do so

:45:55. > :45:56.going to intervene you have to do so going to intervene you have to do so

:45:56. > :45:58.going to intervene you have to do so because you know you have a plan for

:45:58. > :45:59.because you know you have a plan for because you know you have a plan for

:45:59. > :46:03.because you know you have a plan for the future and you think there is

:46:03. > :46:04.the future and you think there is the future and you think there is

:46:04. > :46:05.something beneficial. You have got something beneficial. You have got

:46:05. > :46:06.something beneficial. You have got something beneficial. You have got

:46:06. > :46:09.to try and plan, and your plan has to try and plan, and your plan has

:46:09. > :46:10.to try and plan, and your plan has to try and plan, and your plan has

:46:10. > :46:11.got to be strategic and flexible. If got to be strategic and flexible. If

:46:11. > :46:13.got to be strategic and flexible. If we want the capacity to intervene,

:46:13. > :46:17.we want the capacity to intervene, we want the capacity to intervene,

:46:17. > :46:18.we need to increase spending in we need to increase spending in

:46:18. > :46:20.we need to increase spending in defence. Thank you. An intervention

:46:20. > :46:20.defence. Thank you. An intervention defence. Thank you. An intervention

:46:20. > :46:22.defence. Thank you. An intervention is at the top of the current

:46:22. > :46:23.is at the top of the current is at the top of the current

:46:23. > :46:24.political agenda as well. The political agenda as well. The

:46:24. > :46:25.political agenda as well. The foreign office Minister Hugo Swire

:46:25. > :46:26.foreign office Minister Hugo Swire foreign office Minister Hugo Swire

:46:26. > :46:28.was called to the chamber yesterday was called to the chamber yesterday

:46:28. > :46:29.was called to the chamber yesterday to answer a question about the

:46:29. > :46:30.to answer a question about the to answer a question about the

:46:30. > :46:33.to answer a question about the refusal by William Hague to rule out

:46:33. > :46:35.refusal by William Hague to rule out refusal by William Hague to rule out

:46:35. > :46:37.arming the Syrian opposition. MPs arming the Syrian opposition. MPs

:46:37. > :46:38.expressed concern about the expressed concern about the

:46:38. > :46:39.potential consequences, but the potential consequences, but the

:46:39. > :46:45.minister argued Britain cannot minister argued Britain cannot

:46:45. > :46:46.minister argued Britain cannot ignore the situation in Syria.

:46:46. > :46:48.ignore the situation in Syria. ignore the situation in Syria.

:46:48. > :46:49.longer the situation goes on, the longer the situation goes on, the

:46:49. > :46:51.longer the situation goes on, the greater the danger that extremism

:46:51. > :46:52.greater the danger that extremism greater the danger that extremism

:46:52. > :46:53.takes hold, the greater the danger takes hold, the greater the danger

:46:53. > :46:57.of destabilising neighbouring of destabilising neighbouring

:46:57. > :46:58.of destabilising neighbouring countries and the greater the

:46:58. > :46:59.countries and the greater the extreme humanitarian distress

:46:59. > :47:00.extreme humanitarian distress extreme humanitarian distress

:47:00. > :47:01.extreme humanitarian distress involved. We must do more to try to

:47:01. > :47:05.involved. We must do more to try to involved. We must do more to try to

:47:05. > :47:07.involved. We must do more to try to help save lives in Syria. I advise

:47:07. > :47:08.help save lives in Syria. I advise caution. The Foreign Secretary

:47:08. > :47:09.caution. The Foreign Secretary appeared to be contemplating

:47:09. > :47:11.appeared to be contemplating appeared to be contemplating

:47:11. > :47:12.appeared to be contemplating stepping up support for one side in

:47:12. > :47:13.stepping up support for one side in stepping up support for one side in

:47:14. > :47:16.stepping up support for one side in the Civil War. Both sites have been

:47:16. > :47:17.the Civil War. Both sites have been the Civil War. Both sites have been

:47:17. > :47:18.committing atrocities. We may be committing atrocities. We may be

:47:18. > :47:19.committing atrocities. We may be supplying terrorists of the future

:47:19. > :47:23.supplying terrorists of the future supplying terrorists of the future

:47:23. > :47:25.and shipping arms does not reduce and shipping arms does not reduce

:47:25. > :47:27.and shipping arms does not reduce tensions. We saw when we supplied

:47:27. > :47:27.tensions. We saw when we supplied tensions. We saw when we supplied

:47:27. > :47:28.tensions. We saw when we supplied arms to Iraq during the Iraq Iran

:47:28. > :47:30.arms to Iraq during the Iraq Iran arms to Iraq during the Iraq Iran

:47:30. > :47:31.arms to Iraq during the Iraq Iran arms to Iraq during the Iraq Iran

:47:31. > :47:33.war that a lot of people died and in war that a lot of people died and in

:47:34. > :47:35.war that a lot of people died and in the end neither side became our

:47:35. > :47:36.the end neither side became our the end neither side became our

:47:36. > :47:37.friend. Interventions rarely go to friend. Interventions rarely go to

:47:37. > :47:38.friend. Interventions rarely go to friend. Interventions rarely go to

:47:38. > :47:40.plan so I hope the Government will plan so I hope the Government will

:47:40. > :47:41.plan so I hope the Government will think carefully before pushing for

:47:41. > :47:43.think carefully before pushing for think carefully before pushing for

:47:43. > :47:45.change on this policy with regards change on this policy with regards

:47:45. > :47:45.change on this policy with regards change on this policy with regards

:47:45. > :47:48.to neighbours and friends. This is a to neighbours and friends. This is a

:47:49. > :47:50.to neighbours and friends. This is a military stalemate which cannot be

:47:50. > :47:52.military stalemate which cannot be military stalemate which cannot be

:47:52. > :47:54.won by governments. Handing weapons won by governments. Handing weapons

:47:54. > :47:55.won by governments. Handing weapons won by governments. Handing weapons

:47:55. > :47:57.to jihad -ists will make the killing to jihad -ists will make the killing

:47:57. > :47:59.to jihad -ists will make the killing worse, not better, and will also

:47:59. > :47:59.worse, not better, and will also worse, not better, and will also

:48:00. > :48:01.hinder aid efforts that his hinder aid efforts that his

:48:01. > :48:02.hinder aid efforts that his Government is helping with. Can I

:48:02. > :48:05.Government is helping with. Can I Government is helping with. Can I

:48:05. > :48:07.Government is helping with. Can I urge him not to get dragged into the

:48:07. > :48:10.urge him not to get dragged into the quagmire. Whilst this cross-party

:48:10. > :48:13.quagmire. Whilst this cross-party consensus condemning the President

:48:13. > :48:14.consensus condemning the President consensus condemning the President

:48:14. > :48:16.Assad regime, will the Minister Assad regime, will the Minister

:48:16. > :48:16.Assad regime, will the Minister reassure the house proper respect

:48:16. > :48:22.reassure the house proper respect reassure the house proper respect

:48:22. > :48:23.will be shown for international law? will be shown for international law?

:48:23. > :48:25.will be shown for international law? I only wish President Assad showed

:48:25. > :48:26.I only wish President Assad showed I only wish President Assad showed

:48:26. > :48:31.I only wish President Assad showed any interest in any law or any kind

:48:31. > :48:36.any interest in any law or any kind any interest in any law or any kind

:48:36. > :48:37.of human decency. Many people will of human decency. Many people will

:48:37. > :48:38.of human decency. Many people will of human decency. Many people will

:48:38. > :48:40.see this, that we are being drawn see this, that we are being drawn

:48:40. > :48:41.see this, that we are being drawn see this, that we are being drawn

:48:41. > :48:43.ever more into a civil war and ever more into a civil war and

:48:43. > :48:45.ever more into a civil war and taking sides. Is that a fair

:48:45. > :48:46.taking sides. Is that a fair taking sides. Is that a fair

:48:46. > :48:49.description? Know, and I have spent description? Know, and I have spent

:48:49. > :48:49.description? Know, and I have spent the last 35 minutes trying to

:48:50. > :48:51.the last 35 minutes trying to the last 35 minutes trying to

:48:51. > :48:53.the last 35 minutes trying to illustrate why it is not a fair

:48:53. > :48:55.illustrate why it is not a fair illustrate why it is not a fair

:48:55. > :48:56.description. Today it is about description. Today it is about

:48:56. > :48:58.nonlethal equipment and technical nonlethal equipment and technical

:48:58. > :48:59.nonlethal equipment and technical assistance to bold and the Syrian

:48:59. > :48:59.assistance to bold and the Syrian assistance to bold and the Syrian

:49:00. > :49:01.opposition to provide a credible opposition to provide a credible

:49:01. > :49:08.opposition to provide a credible Government to replace the cruel

:49:08. > :49:09.Government to replace the cruel Government to replace the cruel

:49:09. > :49:10.dictatorship of President Assad. dictatorship of President Assad.

:49:10. > :49:12.dictatorship of President Assad. dictatorship of President Assad.

:49:12. > :49:13.have said you would like to see some have said you would like to see some

:49:13. > :49:15.have said you would like to see some sort of intervention in Syria. Do

:49:15. > :49:16.sort of intervention in Syria. Do sort of intervention in Syria. Do

:49:16. > :49:18.sort of intervention in Syria. Do you think it is right to consider

:49:18. > :49:19.you think it is right to consider you think it is right to consider

:49:19. > :49:21.you think it is right to consider arming Syrian rebels? It may be. It

:49:21. > :49:21.arming Syrian rebels? It may be. It arming Syrian rebels? It may be. It

:49:21. > :49:23.arming Syrian rebels? It may be. It is not impossible that we should go

:49:23. > :49:24.is not impossible that we should go is not impossible that we should go

:49:24. > :49:25.is not impossible that we should go into Syria in some way, but you have

:49:25. > :49:26.into Syria in some way, but you have into Syria in some way, but you have

:49:26. > :49:28.into Syria in some way, but you have to have a serious game plan, you

:49:28. > :49:29.to have a serious game plan, you to have a serious game plan, you

:49:29. > :49:30.to have a serious game plan, you have to know what you want as the

:49:30. > :49:31.have to know what you want as the have to know what you want as the

:49:31. > :49:32.have to know what you want as the outcome and you have to see the

:49:32. > :49:35.outcome and you have to see the outcome and you have to see the

:49:35. > :49:38.Syrian rebels as preferable to the Syrian rebels as preferable to the

:49:38. > :49:39.Syrian rebels as preferable to the Syrian rebels as preferable to the

:49:40. > :49:41.regime. Do you think we should go in regime. Do you think we should go in

:49:41. > :49:41.regime. Do you think we should go in regime. Do you think we should go in

:49:41. > :49:43.at the moment? Not until we know at the moment? Not until we know

:49:43. > :49:46.at the moment? Not until we know at the moment? Not until we know

:49:46. > :49:48.what we want to do and we have what we want to do and we have

:49:48. > :49:52.what we want to do and we have allies. The Americans have said they

:49:52. > :49:53.allies. The Americans have said they allies. The Americans have said they

:49:53. > :49:53.don't. It really is an appalling don't. It really is an appalling

:49:53. > :49:55.don't. It really is an appalling humanitarian situation and that does

:49:55. > :49:56.humanitarian situation and that does humanitarian situation and that does

:49:56. > :49:57.humanitarian situation and that does humanitarian situation and that does

:49:57. > :49:58.seem to me to be a reason to go in seem to me to be a reason to go in

:49:58. > :49:59.seem to me to be a reason to go in seem to me to be a reason to go in

:49:59. > :50:03.seem to me to be a reason to go in but it will not be a quick air and

:50:03. > :50:04.but it will not be a quick air and but it will not be a quick air and

:50:04. > :50:05.but it will not be a quick air and but it will not be a quick air and

:50:05. > :50:07.out. How do you keep your MP is in out. How do you keep your MP is in

:50:07. > :50:07.out. How do you keep your MP is in out. How do you keep your MP is in

:50:07. > :50:08.line if you are a whip? Particularly line if you are a whip? Particularly

:50:08. > :50:12.line if you are a whip? Particularly line if you are a whip? Particularly

:50:12. > :50:13.if every vote is on a knife edge? if every vote is on a knife edge?

:50:13. > :50:20.if every vote is on a knife edge? The usual shadowy tactics have been

:50:20. > :50:21.The usual shadowy tactics have been The usual shadowy tactics have been

:50:21. > :50:21.dragged into the spotlight, and it dragged into the spotlight, and it

:50:22. > :50:25.dragged into the spotlight, and it dragged into the spotlight, and it

:50:25. > :50:31.was all witnessed by a young Labour was all witnessed by a young Labour

:50:31. > :50:32.was all witnessed by a young Labour was all witnessed by a young Labour

:50:32. > :50:33.MP, Ann Taylor. For the next few MP, Ann Taylor. For the next few

:50:33. > :50:34.MP, Ann Taylor. For the next few months, Westminster types will be

:50:34. > :50:35.months, Westminster types will be months, Westminster types will be

:50:35. > :50:38.flocking to the National Theatre to flocking to the National Theatre to

:50:38. > :50:39.flocking to the National Theatre to flocking to the National Theatre to

:50:39. > :50:40.see this house. The play was such a see this house. The play was such a

:50:40. > :50:42.see this house. The play was such a see this house. The play was such a

:50:42. > :50:43.hit when it was first staged last hit when it was first staged last

:50:44. > :50:44.hit when it was first staged last hit when it was first staged last

:50:44. > :50:45.year, it has been given another run year, it has been given another run

:50:45. > :50:47.year, it has been given another run year, it has been given another run

:50:47. > :50:48.year, it has been given another run in a big theatre. It is set in the

:50:48. > :50:50.in a big theatre. It is set in the in a big theatre. It is set in the

:50:50. > :50:52.70s when Labour Prime Minister Jim 70s when Labour Prime Minister Jim

:50:52. > :50:53.Callaghan clung precariously to Callaghan clung precariously to

:50:53. > :50:54.Callaghan clung precariously to Callaghan clung precariously to

:50:54. > :50:56.power but the show focuses on the power but the show focuses on the

:50:56. > :50:59.power but the show focuses on the low politics and sneaky tactics of

:50:59. > :51:02.low politics and sneaky tactics of low politics and sneaky tactics of

:51:02. > :51:03.the whip's office. Here is a the whip's office. Here is a

:51:03. > :51:06.the whip's office. Here is a the whip's office. Here is a

:51:06. > :51:07.screwdriver, keep it with you at all screwdriver, keep it with you at all

:51:07. > :51:08.screwdriver, keep it with you at all screwdriver, keep it with you at all

:51:08. > :51:09.times. You have got eight minutes to times. You have got eight minutes to

:51:09. > :51:12.times. You have got eight minutes to get members through the lobby, each

:51:12. > :51:13.get members through the lobby, each get members through the lobby, each

:51:13. > :51:19.get members through the lobby, each which takes a trip to the toilet,

:51:19. > :51:21.which takes a trip to the toilet, which takes a trip to the toilet,

:51:21. > :51:22.flush them out. These actors play flush them out. These actors play

:51:22. > :51:23.flush them out. These actors play flush them out. These actors play

:51:23. > :51:25.the Labour whip and his deputy, but the Labour whip and his deputy, but

:51:25. > :51:26.the Labour whip and his deputy, but the Labour whip and his deputy, but

:51:26. > :51:27.who is that? It is the real Ann who is that? It is the real Ann

:51:27. > :51:28.who is that? It is the real Ann Taylor, who we brought along to

:51:28. > :51:30.Taylor, who we brought along to Taylor, who we brought along to

:51:30. > :51:31.Taylor, who we brought along to watch the rehearsal. What is it like

:51:31. > :51:35.watch the rehearsal. What is it like watch the rehearsal. What is it like

:51:35. > :51:37.watch the rehearsal. What is it like the in your life on stage? I am

:51:38. > :51:38.the in your life on stage? I am the in your life on stage? I am

:51:38. > :51:39.staggered that the essence and staggered that the essence and

:51:39. > :51:40.staggered that the essence and staggered that the essence and

:51:40. > :51:42.reality of politics at that time has reality of politics at that time has

:51:42. > :51:42.reality of politics at that time has reality of politics at that time has

:51:43. > :51:43.come over with people who were not come over with people who were not

:51:43. > :51:44.come over with people who were not come over with people who were not

:51:44. > :51:45.involved and I think it is a good involved and I think it is a good

:51:45. > :51:46.involved and I think it is a good involved and I think it is a good

:51:46. > :51:50.involved and I think it is a good play in its own right, but also as a

:51:50. > :51:51.play in its own right, but also as a play in its own right, but also as a

:51:51. > :51:52.play in its own right, but also as a piece of history. I think it also

:51:52. > :51:53.piece of history. I think it also piece of history. I think it also

:51:53. > :51:56.piece of history. I think it also shows politics is a team game, not

:51:56. > :51:57.shows politics is a team game, not shows politics is a team game, not

:51:57. > :51:59.just about the primadonna's. It is just about the primadonna's. It is

:51:59. > :52:01.just about the primadonna's. It is about the workhorse that is the

:52:01. > :52:02.about the workhorse that is the about the workhorse that is the

:52:02. > :52:04.about the workhorse that is the whip's office. I don't know if that

:52:04. > :52:05.whip's office. I don't know if that whip's office. I don't know if that

:52:05. > :52:09.comes across. Yes, less about the comes across. Yes, less about the

:52:09. > :52:11.comes across. Yes, less about the names you would know like Margaret

:52:11. > :52:13.names you would know like Margaret names you would know like Margaret

:52:13. > :52:14.Thatcher. It is about the workings, Thatcher. It is about the workings,

:52:14. > :52:16.Thatcher. It is about the workings, the engine room, not something I

:52:16. > :52:18.the engine room, not something I the engine room, not something I

:52:18. > :52:23.knew anything about before I was knew anything about before I was

:52:23. > :52:28.knew anything about before I was doing this. Whips work under a

:52:28. > :52:29.doing this. Whips work under a doing this. Whips work under a

:52:29. > :52:30.doing this. Whips work under a strict code of secrecy so how did

:52:30. > :52:34.strict code of secrecy so how did strict code of secrecy so how did

:52:34. > :52:35.strict code of secrecy so how did they get them to spill the beans?

:52:35. > :52:36.they get them to spill the beans? they get them to spill the beans?

:52:36. > :52:37.they get them to spill the beans? is far enough away now for people to

:52:37. > :52:41.is far enough away now for people to is far enough away now for people to

:52:41. > :52:47.have perspective and be candid about have perspective and be candid about

:52:47. > :52:48.have perspective and be candid about events. Do you like football?

:52:48. > :52:58.events. Do you like football? events. Do you like football?

:52:58. > :52:59.events. Do you like football? Wanderers. That is in no event.

:52:59. > :53:01.Wanderers. That is in no event. Wanderers. That is in no event.

:53:01. > :53:02.great play. Ann Taylor does it great play. Ann Taylor does it

:53:02. > :53:03.great play. Ann Taylor does it great play. Ann Taylor does it

:53:03. > :53:05.capture your life as it was then? capture your life as it was then?

:53:05. > :53:06.capture your life as it was then? Yes, it is amazing, the whole

:53:06. > :53:08.Yes, it is amazing, the whole Yes, it is amazing, the whole

:53:08. > :53:10.atmosphere it creates. Given there atmosphere it creates. Given there

:53:10. > :53:11.atmosphere it creates. Given there has got to be artistic license,

:53:11. > :53:11.has got to be artistic license, has got to be artistic license,

:53:11. > :53:14.has got to be artistic license, there was not so much slapstick and

:53:14. > :53:15.there was not so much slapstick and there was not so much slapstick and

:53:15. > :53:16.bouncing around, but the emphasis of bouncing around, but the emphasis of

:53:16. > :53:17.bouncing around, but the emphasis of where the tension was, where the

:53:17. > :53:21.where the tension was, where the where the tension was, where the

:53:21. > :53:22.where the tension was, where the excitement was, it is their. But the

:53:22. > :53:23.excitement was, it is their. But the excitement was, it is their. But the

:53:23. > :53:24.environment when I was watching it, environment when I was watching it,

:53:24. > :53:27.environment when I was watching it, when they were sitting around, you

:53:27. > :53:28.when they were sitting around, you when they were sitting around, you

:53:28. > :53:31.when they were sitting around, you were the only woman in the whip's

:53:31. > :53:33.were the only woman in the whip's office, match oh, politically

:53:33. > :53:34.office, match oh, politically office, match oh, politically

:53:34. > :53:36.office, match oh, politically incorrect, how did it feel at the

:53:36. > :53:37.incorrect, how did it feel at the incorrect, how did it feel at the

:53:37. > :53:38.incorrect, how did it feel at the time? There were only 27 women in

:53:38. > :53:39.time? There were only 27 women in time? There were only 27 women in

:53:39. > :53:41.time? There were only 27 women in the whole of the House of Commons in

:53:41. > :53:42.the whole of the House of Commons in the whole of the House of Commons in

:53:42. > :53:43.those days. It was an unusual those days. It was an unusual

:53:43. > :53:43.those days. It was an unusual those days. It was an unusual

:53:43. > :53:45.situation but if you've just got on situation but if you've just got on

:53:45. > :53:46.situation but if you've just got on situation but if you've just got on

:53:46. > :53:49.with the job, the men did treat you with the job, the men did treat you

:53:49. > :53:49.with the job, the men did treat you with the job, the men did treat you

:53:49. > :53:51.with the job, the men did treat you as one of the boys or one of the

:53:51. > :53:51.as one of the boys or one of the as one of the boys or one of the

:53:51. > :53:53.team because the essence of the team because the essence of the

:53:53. > :53:53.team because the essence of the team because the essence of the

:53:53. > :53:56.team because the essence of the office is that it has got to be a

:53:56. > :53:57.office is that it has got to be a office is that it has got to be a

:53:57. > :53:59.office is that it has got to be a team. They tease you, and you tease

:54:00. > :54:01.team. They tease you, and you tease team. They tease you, and you tease

:54:01. > :54:03.team. They tease you, and you tease back. I love the bit when they were

:54:03. > :54:04.back. I love the bit when they were back. I love the bit when they were

:54:04. > :54:06.back. I love the bit when they were swearing and they said sorry to you.

:54:06. > :54:06.swearing and they said sorry to you. swearing and they said sorry to you.

:54:06. > :54:09.swearing and they said sorry to you. That was genuine. They used to swear

:54:09. > :54:09.That was genuine. They used to swear That was genuine. They used to swear

:54:09. > :54:13.quite frequently, and one of the quite frequently, and one of the

:54:13. > :54:14.quite frequently, and one of the quite frequently, and one of the

:54:14. > :54:15.whips from London said "I will sit whips from London said "I will sit

:54:15. > :54:16.whips from London said "I will sit whips from London said "I will sit

:54:16. > :54:21.next to her" and they were saying next to her" and they were saying

:54:22. > :54:22.next to her" and they were saying next to her" and they were saying

:54:23. > :54:25.sorry to me. You were the whip sorry to me. You were the whip

:54:25. > :54:26.sorry to me. You were the whip recently, has it changed? Have you

:54:26. > :54:27.recently, has it changed? Have you recently, has it changed? Have you

:54:27. > :54:28.recently, has it changed? Have you seen the play? No, it took me two

:54:28. > :54:31.seen the play? No, it took me two seen the play? No, it took me two

:54:31. > :54:33.seen the play? No, it took me two months to get a ticket. On the basis

:54:33. > :54:35.months to get a ticket. On the basis months to get a ticket. On the basis

:54:35. > :54:37.months to get a ticket. On the basis of what you have heard, has it

:54:37. > :54:38.of what you have heard, has it of what you have heard, has it

:54:38. > :54:39.changed? Yes, firstly I think the changed? Yes, firstly I think the

:54:39. > :54:41.changed? Yes, firstly I think the hours have changed and having more

:54:41. > :54:42.hours have changed and having more hours have changed and having more

:54:42. > :54:45.women in Parliament has forced the women in Parliament has forced the

:54:45. > :54:47.women in Parliament has forced the women in Parliament has forced the

:54:47. > :54:48.whip's office to change, and to be whip's office to change, and to be

:54:48. > :54:49.whip's office to change, and to be more sensitive to demands. Women are

:54:50. > :54:50.more sensitive to demands. Women are more sensitive to demands. Women are

:54:50. > :54:52.better than men at multitasking and better than men at multitasking and

:54:52. > :54:52.better than men at multitasking and better than men at multitasking and

:54:52. > :54:56.they want to get home to see their they want to get home to see their

:54:56. > :54:57.they want to get home to see their children and things like that.

:54:57. > :55:01.children and things like that. children and things like that.

:55:01. > :55:02.children and things like that. they didn't in those days! Is it a

:55:02. > :55:03.they didn't in those days! Is it a they didn't in those days! Is it a

:55:03. > :55:08.they didn't in those days! Is it a good job when you are having to

:55:08. > :55:09.good job when you are having to good job when you are having to

:55:09. > :55:11.cajole your colleagues into having cajole your colleagues into having

:55:11. > :55:12.cajole your colleagues into having cajole your colleagues into having

:55:12. > :55:13.the right division? If you are a the right division? If you are a

:55:13. > :55:15.straightforward party politician straightforward party politician

:55:15. > :55:17.straightforward party politician wanting to give the electorate a

:55:17. > :55:17.wanting to give the electorate a wanting to give the electorate a

:55:17. > :55:19.wanting to give the electorate a choice between them and us, you keep

:55:19. > :55:21.choice between them and us, you keep choice between them and us, you keep

:55:21. > :55:22.choice between them and us, you keep choice between them and us, you keep

:55:22. > :55:24.your show on the road. It is not all your show on the road. It is not all

:55:24. > :55:24.your show on the road. It is not all about torture and twisting arms, it

:55:24. > :55:26.about torture and twisting arms, it about torture and twisting arms, it

:55:26. > :55:28.is about being a communication is about being a communication

:55:28. > :55:29.is about being a communication channel between backbenchers and the

:55:29. > :55:30.channel between backbenchers and the channel between backbenchers and the

:55:30. > :55:32.Government so it is fascinating as Government so it is fascinating as

:55:32. > :55:33.Government so it is fascinating as Government so it is fascinating as

:55:33. > :55:34.an insight into what is happening in an insight into what is happening in

:55:34. > :55:38.an insight into what is happening in politics at any particular point in

:55:38. > :55:39.politics at any particular point in politics at any particular point in

:55:39. > :55:40.time. Using those dodgy tactics that time. Using those dodgy tactics that

:55:40. > :55:41.time. Using those dodgy tactics that time. Using those dodgy tactics that

:55:41. > :55:46.were to some extent shown in the were to some extent shown in the

:55:46. > :55:46.were to some extent shown in the play, does that still happening?

:55:46. > :55:48.play, does that still happening? play, does that still happening?

:55:48. > :55:49.play, does that still happening? cannot say it is myth, but from the

:55:49. > :55:50.cannot say it is myth, but from the cannot say it is myth, but from the

:55:50. > :55:51.cannot say it is myth, but from the five years that I was there, the

:55:51. > :55:53.five years that I was there, the five years that I was there, the

:55:53. > :55:55.five years that I was there, the things I used to hear, the stories

:55:55. > :55:56.things I used to hear, the stories things I used to hear, the stories

:55:56. > :56:01.about the whip's office, certainly about the whip's office, certainly

:56:01. > :56:02.about the whip's office, certainly it didn't happen. Firstly, we were

:56:02. > :56:04.it didn't happen. Firstly, we were it didn't happen. Firstly, we were

:56:04. > :56:05.trying to ensure that people going trying to ensure that people going

:56:05. > :56:07.trying to ensure that people going through the lobbies were supportive

:56:07. > :56:09.through the lobbies were supportive through the lobbies were supportive

:56:09. > :56:10.through the lobbies were supportive of us, trying to persuade people who

:56:10. > :56:11.of us, trying to persuade people who of us, trying to persuade people who

:56:11. > :56:16.were not supportive to be were not supportive to be

:56:16. > :56:16.were not supportive to be were not supportive to be

:56:16. > :56:18.supportive, but also we had an HR supportive, but also we had an HR

:56:18. > :56:19.supportive, but also we had an HR supportive, but also we had an HR

:56:19. > :56:20.function. We each had a flock of function. We each had a flock of

:56:20. > :56:20.function. We each had a flock of people who we were responsible to

:56:21. > :56:25.people who we were responsible to people who we were responsible to

:56:25. > :56:26.when there were personal issues. If when there were personal issues. If

:56:26. > :56:27.when there were personal issues. If when there were personal issues. If

:56:27. > :56:28.you look at the 2010 intake, I think you look at the 2010 intake, I think

:56:28. > :56:31.you look at the 2010 intake, I think you look at the 2010 intake, I think

:56:31. > :56:32.something like 16 of the people who something like 16 of the people who

:56:32. > :56:34.something like 16 of the people who came in are either separated or

:56:34. > :56:34.came in are either separated or came in are either separated or

:56:34. > :56:36.divorced from their partners so divorced from their partners so

:56:36. > :56:37.divorced from their partners so divorced from their partners so

:56:37. > :56:39.there is stress in the job, in being there is stress in the job, in being

:56:39. > :56:40.there is stress in the job, in being there is stress in the job, in being

:56:40. > :56:42.an MP, and trying to be sensitive to an MP, and trying to be sensitive to

:56:42. > :56:43.an MP, and trying to be sensitive to those pressures is important.

:56:43. > :56:45.those pressures is important. those pressures is important.

:56:45. > :56:45.those pressures is important. of those things come up in the

:56:45. > :56:46.of those things come up in the of those things come up in the

:56:46. > :56:52.of those things come up in the play. What about in the House of

:56:52. > :56:53.play. What about in the House of play. What about in the House of

:56:53. > :56:54.Lords? Of course the same things Lords? Of course the same things

:56:54. > :56:56.Lords? Of course the same things Lords? Of course the same things

:56:56. > :56:58.happen but it is not the same. I happen but it is not the same. I

:56:58. > :57:00.happen but it is not the same. I think it is different, I don't

:57:00. > :57:01.think it is different, I don't think it is different, I don't

:57:01. > :57:02.think it is different, I don't know. The problem in the House of

:57:02. > :57:03.know. The problem in the House of know. The problem in the House of

:57:03. > :57:08.know. The problem in the House of Lords is they haven't got much power

:57:08. > :57:11.Lords is they haven't got much power Lords is they haven't got much power

:57:11. > :57:13.over us. We are therefore life over us. We are therefore life

:57:13. > :57:17.over us. We are therefore life unless something gets changed.

:57:17. > :57:18.unless something gets changed. unless something gets changed.

:57:18. > :57:19.the moment! That makes it difficult the moment! That makes it difficult

:57:19. > :57:19.the moment! That makes it difficult the moment! That makes it difficult

:57:19. > :57:23.for the whips. Are they going to for the whips. Are they going to

:57:23. > :57:24.for the whips. Are they going to for the whips. Are they going to

:57:24. > :57:26.send you to Coventry? It will not send you to Coventry? It will not

:57:26. > :57:27.send you to Coventry? It will not send you to Coventry? It will not

:57:27. > :57:30.work. It is different. They try very work. It is different. They try very

:57:30. > :57:31.work. It is different. They try very hard and there are some impressive

:57:31. > :57:31.hard and there are some impressive hard and there are some impressive

:57:31. > :57:32.hard and there are some impressive whips but I think the pastoral role

:57:32. > :57:33.whips but I think the pastoral role whips but I think the pastoral role

:57:33. > :57:34.whips but I think the pastoral role is interesting. It is one of the

:57:34. > :57:34.is interesting. It is one of the is interesting. It is one of the

:57:34. > :57:35.is interesting. It is one of the things I have seen amongst the whips

:57:35. > :57:39.things I have seen amongst the whips things I have seen amongst the whips

:57:39. > :57:40.things I have seen amongst the whips in the House of Lords and that is

:57:40. > :57:42.in the House of Lords and that is in the House of Lords and that is

:57:42. > :57:45.the extraordinary pastoral role they the extraordinary pastoral role they

:57:45. > :57:46.the extraordinary pastoral role they the extraordinary pastoral role they

:57:46. > :57:47.play. A lot of us are older and play. A lot of us are older and

:57:47. > :57:48.play. A lot of us are older and play. A lot of us are older and

:57:48. > :57:49.there is the issue about ageing and there is the issue about ageing and

:57:49. > :57:51.there is the issue about ageing and that has been an interesting insight

:57:51. > :57:53.that has been an interesting insight that has been an interesting insight

:57:53. > :57:54.that has been an interesting insight into what the whips do. Do you think

:57:54. > :57:57.into what the whips do. Do you think into what the whips do. Do you think

:57:57. > :57:58.into what the whips do. Do you think there is anything that can be learnt

:57:58. > :57:59.there is anything that can be learnt there is anything that can be learnt

:57:59. > :58:00.there is anything that can be learnt by whips today based on the play?

:58:00. > :58:04.by whips today based on the play? by whips today based on the play?

:58:04. > :58:05.Every vote was critical, it seemed. Every vote was critical, it seemed.

:58:05. > :58:07.Every vote was critical, it seemed. Are any of those themes salient

:58:07. > :58:08.Are any of those themes salient Are any of those themes salient

:58:08. > :58:10.today? We have had some critical today? We have had some critical

:58:10. > :58:10.today? We have had some critical today? We have had some critical

:58:10. > :58:13.votes in the House of Lords recently votes in the House of Lords recently

:58:13. > :58:14.votes in the House of Lords recently votes in the House of Lords recently

:58:14. > :58:15.and done very well on them. I would and done very well on them. I would

:58:15. > :58:18.and done very well on them. I would emphasise that politics is not just

:58:18. > :58:18.emphasise that politics is not just emphasise that politics is not just

:58:18. > :58:20.about primadonna's, not just about about primadonna's, not just about

:58:20. > :58:21.about primadonna's, not just about the people who write their own

:58:21. > :58:24.the people who write their own the people who write their own

:58:24. > :58:25.autobiographies. It is about people autobiographies. It is about people

:58:25. > :58:26.autobiographies. It is about people autobiographies. It is about people

:58:26. > :58:28.who turn up every day and do the who turn up every day and do the

:58:28. > :58:29.who turn up every day and do the who turn up every day and do the

:58:29. > :58:30.work in a diligent and sincere way work in a diligent and sincere way

:58:30. > :58:30.work in a diligent and sincere way work in a diligent and sincere way

:58:30. > :58:31.and they are the people who don't and they are the people who don't

:58:31. > :58:34.and they are the people who don't and they are the people who don't

:58:34. > :58:35.get any credit most of the time. A get any credit most of the time. A

:58:35. > :58:36.get any credit most of the time. A play that emphasises the team nature

:58:36. > :58:38.play that emphasises the team nature play that emphasises the team nature

:58:38. > :58:39.of politics is actually very of politics is actually very

:58:39. > :58:45.of politics is actually very important as part of everybody's

:58:45. > :58:46.important as part of everybody's important as part of everybody's

:58:46. > :58:50.education. Enjoy the play. I am education. Enjoy the play. I am

:58:50. > :58:53.education. Enjoy the play. I am education. Enjoy the play. I am

:58:53. > :58:54.going to go again. Thank you to our going to go again. Thank you to our

:58:54. > :58:55.going to go again. Thank you to our guests. The one o'clock News is

:58:55. > :58:57.guests. The one o'clock News is guests. The one o'clock News is

:58:57. > :58:58.guests. The one o'clock News is starting on BBC1 now, and I will be