07/03/2013

:00:41. > :00:43.Daily Politics. David Cameron wants Daily Politics. David Cameron wants

:00:43. > :00:44.Daily Politics. David Cameron wants Daily Politics. David Cameron wants

:00:44. > :00:45.Daily Politics. David Cameron wants to stick to plan a. He thinks it is

:00:45. > :00:46.to stick to plan a. He thinks it is to stick to plan a. He thinks it is

:00:46. > :00:47.beginning to work and the economy beginning to work and the economy

:00:47. > :00:49.beginning to work and the economy beginning to work and the economy

:00:50. > :00:50.will pick up, honest. If only his will pick up, honest. If only his

:00:50. > :00:51.coalition partner, Business coalition partner, Business

:00:51. > :00:52.coalition partner, Business Secretary Vince Cable for the same.

:00:52. > :00:54.Secretary Vince Cable for the same. Secretary Vince Cable for the same.

:00:54. > :00:57.Secretary Vince Cable for the same. He appears to be demanding plan B

:00:57. > :00:57.He appears to be demanding plan B He appears to be demanding plan B

:00:57. > :01:01.Ashmore investment in industry, paid Ashmore investment in industry, paid

:01:01. > :01:02.for by more borrowing. for by more borrowing.

:01:02. > :01:04.for by more borrowing. Labour try to seize the immigration

:01:04. > :01:05.Labour try to seize the immigration Labour try to seize the immigration

:01:05. > :01:06.initiative. We have trawled the Home initiative. We have trawled the Home

:01:06. > :01:07.initiative. We have trawled the Home Secretary's speech for a major

:01:07. > :01:07.Secretary's speech for a major Secretary's speech for a major

:01:07. > :01:09.announcement, but we have yet to announcement, but we have yet to

:01:09. > :01:12.find anything new. find anything new.

:01:13. > :01:13.find anything new. It is a bread-and-butter issue and

:01:13. > :01:14.It is a bread-and-butter issue and It is a bread-and-butter issue and

:01:14. > :01:15.all the political parties appear to all the political parties appear to

:01:15. > :01:16.all the political parties appear to all the political parties appear to

:01:17. > :01:17.want a slice of the action. We will want a slice of the action. We will

:01:17. > :01:20.want a slice of the action. We will want a slice of the action. We will

:01:20. > :01:22.be talking about the 10p tax rate. be talking about the 10p tax rate.

:01:22. > :01:23.be talking about the 10p tax rate. And forget London, Paris, Milan. If

:01:23. > :01:23.And forget London, Paris, Milan. If And forget London, Paris, Milan. If

:01:24. > :01:25.And forget London, Paris, Milan. If you want a glimpse of next season's

:01:25. > :01:26.you want a glimpse of next season's you want a glimpse of next season's

:01:26. > :01:27.coat could sure, come to coat could sure, come to

:01:27. > :01:28.coat could sure, come to Westminster. We will be talking

:01:28. > :01:29.Westminster. We will be talking Westminster. We will be talking

:01:29. > :01:37.Westminster. We will be talking about the highs and lows of the

:01:37. > :01:39.political catwalk. political catwalk.

:01:39. > :01:41.political catwalk. political catwalk.

:01:41. > :01:42.All that in the next hour, and with All that in the next hour, and with

:01:43. > :01:45.All that in the next hour, and with us for the duration, former Home

:01:45. > :01:46.us for the duration, former Home Secretary, former health secretary,

:01:46. > :01:47.Secretary, former health secretary, Secretary, former health secretary,

:01:47. > :01:52.former Work and Pensions Secretary, former Work and Pensions Secretary,

:01:52. > :01:53.former Work and Pensions Secretary, former trade and industry secretary,

:01:53. > :01:55.former trade and industry secretary, former trade and industry secretary,

:01:55. > :01:56.former education secretary and he former education secretary and he

:01:56. > :02:04.former education secretary and he former education secretary and he

:02:04. > :02:05.even bag is the job as former Shadow even bag is the job as former Shadow

:02:05. > :02:06.even bag is the job as former Shadow Chancellor. No wonder an opponent

:02:06. > :02:07.Chancellor. No wonder an opponent Chancellor. No wonder an opponent

:02:07. > :02:09.Chancellor. No wonder an opponent was so high! You were doing it all.

:02:09. > :02:10.was so high! You were doing it all. was so high! You were doing it all.

:02:10. > :02:13.Welcome, Alan Johnson. Good to see Welcome, Alan Johnson. Good to see

:02:13. > :02:16.Welcome, Alan Johnson. Good to see Welcome, Alan Johnson. Good to see

:02:16. > :02:17.you in daylight. You are on again you in daylight. You are on again

:02:17. > :02:18.you in daylight. You are on again later tonight. If you have forgotten

:02:18. > :02:20.later tonight. If you have forgotten later tonight. If you have forgotten

:02:20. > :02:21.what a talented education secretary what a talented education secretary

:02:21. > :02:27.what a talented education secretary what a talented education secretary

:02:27. > :02:28.Alan was, take a look at him in Alan was, take a look at him in

:02:28. > :02:30.Alan was, take a look at him in Alan was, take a look at him in

:02:30. > :02:33.action. # P's taking us to the zoo action. # P's taking us to the zoo

:02:33. > :02:34.action. # P's taking us to the zoo action. # P's taking us to the zoo

:02:34. > :02:35.tomorrow, we are going to stay all tomorrow, we are going to stay all

:02:35. > :02:35.tomorrow, we are going to stay all tomorrow, we are going to stay all

:02:35. > :02:39.tomorrow, we are going to stay all day. # we are going to the zoo, zoo,

:02:39. > :02:43.day. # we are going to the zoo, zoo, day. # we are going to the zoo, zoo,

:02:43. > :02:52.day. # we are going to the zoo, zoo, zoo. # how about you, you, you? You

:02:52. > :02:52.zoo. # how about you, you, you? You zoo. # how about you, you, you? You

:02:53. > :02:58.zoo. # how about you, you, you? You are a great audience. That was part

:02:58. > :02:58.are a great audience. That was part are a great audience. That was part

:02:59. > :03:03.are a great audience. That was part of my deputy leadership. I just did

:03:03. > :03:04.of my deputy leadership. I just did of my deputy leadership. I just did

:03:04. > :03:05.of my deputy leadership. I just did that once in Hull. You are obviously

:03:05. > :03:05.that once in Hull. You are obviously that once in Hull. You are obviously

:03:05. > :03:08.multitalented. But can you answer multitalented. But can you answer

:03:08. > :03:10.multitalented. But can you answer these questions is? Lots of talk

:03:10. > :03:12.these questions is? Lots of talk these questions is? Lots of talk

:03:12. > :03:13.about the NHS Chief Executive, Sir about the NHS Chief Executive, Sir

:03:13. > :03:14.about the NHS Chief Executive, Sir David Nicholson. Why are you backing

:03:14. > :03:14.David Nicholson. Why are you backing David Nicholson. Why are you backing

:03:14. > :03:17.David Nicholson. Why are you backing him and not calling for him to step

:03:17. > :03:18.him and not calling for him to step him and not calling for him to step

:03:18. > :03:19.down? Firstly because there was a down? Firstly because there was a

:03:19. > :03:21.down? Firstly because there was a public enquiry which took three

:03:22. > :03:22.public enquiry which took three public enquiry which took three

:03:22. > :03:23.years, produced 2-macro volumes and years, produced 2-macro volumes and

:03:23. > :03:25.years, produced 2-macro volumes and years, produced 2-macro volumes and

:03:25. > :03:27.not only did not say that David not only did not say that David

:03:27. > :03:27.Nicholson was responsible, but Nicholson was responsible, but

:03:27. > :03:30.Nicholson was responsible, but having examined all the conspiracy

:03:30. > :03:30.having examined all the conspiracy having examined all the conspiracy

:03:30. > :03:31.having examined all the conspiracy theories, had him in the dock for 11

:03:31. > :03:33.theories, had him in the dock for 11 theories, had him in the dock for 11

:03:33. > :03:35.theories, had him in the dock for 11 theories, had him in the dock for 11

:03:35. > :03:35.hours in front of a QC, it said it hours in front of a QC, it said it

:03:36. > :03:36.hours in front of a QC, it said it would be wrong to scapegoat anyone

:03:36. > :03:39.would be wrong to scapegoat anyone would be wrong to scapegoat anyone

:03:40. > :03:43.over what happened at Stafford. He over what happened at Stafford. He

:03:43. > :03:44.over what happened at Stafford. He said there were wider lessons for

:03:44. > :03:45.said there were wider lessons for said there were wider lessons for

:03:45. > :03:46.said there were wider lessons for the NHS. I was Home Secretary at the

:03:46. > :03:51.the NHS. I was Home Secretary at the the NHS. I was Home Secretary at the

:03:51. > :03:52.time and what happened there was time and what happened there was

:03:52. > :03:52.time and what happened there was time and what happened there was

:03:52. > :03:54.incredible and it was not what was incredible and it was not what was

:03:54. > :03:55.incredible and it was not what was happening in the NHS generally.

:03:55. > :03:56.happening in the NHS generally. happening in the NHS generally.

:03:56. > :03:57.what about the families of the what about the families of the

:03:57. > :04:00.what about the families of the victims who suffered during that

:04:00. > :04:01.victims who suffered during that victims who suffered during that

:04:01. > :04:02.time? Is there no accountability at time? Is there no accountability at

:04:02. > :04:04.time? Is there no accountability at the top? If you oversee an

:04:04. > :04:05.the top? If you oversee an the top? If you oversee an

:04:05. > :04:07.organisation that is to blame, organisation that is to blame,

:04:07. > :04:07.organisation that is to blame, whether the individuals are, for the

:04:07. > :04:09.whether the individuals are, for the whether the individuals are, for the

:04:09. > :04:10.deaths of hundreds, surely you take deaths of hundreds, surely you take

:04:10. > :04:12.deaths of hundreds, surely you take deaths of hundreds, surely you take

:04:12. > :04:16.the rap is Mac no, I don't think the rap is Mac no, I don't think

:04:16. > :04:17.the rap is Mac no, I don't think the rap is Mac no, I don't think

:04:17. > :04:17.that is the case. We had three that is the case. We had three

:04:17. > :04:19.that is the case. We had three enquiries, but the families wanted a

:04:19. > :04:23.enquiries, but the families wanted a enquiries, but the families wanted a

:04:23. > :04:24.full public enquiry under the public full public enquiry under the public

:04:24. > :04:26.full public enquiry under the public enquiries act. We can't just spend

:04:26. > :04:26.enquiries act. We can't just spend enquiries act. We can't just spend

:04:26. > :04:27.enquiries act. We can't just spend the money on that and then ignore it

:04:27. > :04:32.the money on that and then ignore it the money on that and then ignore it

:04:32. > :04:35.the money on that and then ignore it or have a trial by media. For the

:04:35. > :04:36.or have a trial by media. For the or have a trial by media. For the

:04:36. > :04:39.families, people keep talking about families, people keep talking about

:04:39. > :04:41.families, people keep talking about the number of avoidable deaths. What

:04:41. > :04:42.the number of avoidable deaths. What the number of avoidable deaths. What

:04:42. > :04:43.the number of avoidable deaths. What David Nicholson helped me to do was

:04:43. > :04:44.David Nicholson helped me to do was David Nicholson helped me to do was

:04:44. > :04:45.David Nicholson helped me to do was to ensure that every family that was

:04:45. > :04:47.to ensure that every family that was to ensure that every family that was

:04:47. > :04:53.worried about what happened to their worried about what happened to their

:04:54. > :04:56.worried about what happened to their loved one had an individual session

:04:56. > :04:58.loved one had an individual session loved one had an individual session

:04:58. > :04:58.with a clinician. 200 families took with a clinician. 200 families took

:04:58. > :04:59.with a clinician. 200 families took with a clinician. 200 families took

:04:59. > :05:00.part in that. You bandy about this part in that. You bandy about this

:05:00. > :05:03.part in that. You bandy about this part in that. You bandy about this

:05:03. > :05:04.figure as if they were killed by the figure as if they were killed by the

:05:04. > :05:05.figure as if they were killed by the figure as if they were killed by the

:05:05. > :05:05.NHS, but the mortality ratio is a NHS, but the mortality ratio is a

:05:05. > :05:07.NHS, but the mortality ratio is a statistic that denotes a whole

:05:07. > :05:08.statistic that denotes a whole statistic that denotes a whole

:05:08. > :05:10.series of thing. It suggests that series of thing. It suggests that

:05:10. > :05:12.series of thing. It suggests that there are problems, but does not

:05:12. > :05:13.there are problems, but does not there are problems, but does not

:05:13. > :05:14.suggest that all those people died suggest that all those people died

:05:14. > :05:15.suggest that all those people died unnecessarily. So it was important

:05:15. > :05:16.unnecessarily. So it was important unnecessarily. So it was important

:05:16. > :05:16.unnecessarily. So it was important for the families to have access to

:05:16. > :05:18.for the families to have access to for the families to have access to

:05:18. > :05:21.the case notes of every bejewelled. the case notes of every bejewelled.

:05:21. > :05:22.the case notes of every bejewelled. the case notes of every bejewelled.

:05:22. > :05:23.Has your party become lazy as far as Has your party become lazy as far as

:05:23. > :05:24.Has your party become lazy as far as the next election is concerned, as

:05:24. > :05:27.the next election is concerned, as the next election is concerned, as

:05:27. > :05:27.the next election is concerned, as your colleague Jim Murphy has had?

:05:27. > :05:29.your colleague Jim Murphy has had? your colleague Jim Murphy has had?

:05:29. > :05:30.your colleague Jim Murphy has had? think what Jim is saying is right,

:05:30. > :05:33.think what Jim is saying is right, think what Jim is saying is right,

:05:33. > :05:34.that we must not be complacent. that we must not be complacent.

:05:34. > :05:36.that we must not be complacent. that we must not be complacent.

:05:36. > :05:37.There is a school of thought that it There is a school of thought that it

:05:37. > :05:38.There is a school of thought that it would be impossible for Cameron to

:05:38. > :05:40.would be impossible for Cameron to would be impossible for Cameron to

:05:40. > :05:41.win the next general election, given win the next general election, given

:05:41. > :05:43.win the next general election, given that every sitting by Minister never

:05:43. > :05:44.that every sitting by Minister never that every sitting by Minister never

:05:44. > :05:45.increases their vote at the next increases their vote at the next

:05:45. > :05:47.increases their vote at the next election. That did not do that,

:05:47. > :05:48.election. That did not do that, election. That did not do that,

:05:48. > :05:50.election. That did not do that, Blair did not do that, and Cameron

:05:50. > :05:51.Blair did not do that, and Cameron Blair did not do that, and Cameron

:05:51. > :05:52.has to make up five percentage has to make up five percentage

:05:52. > :05:54.has to make up five percentage has to make up five percentage

:05:54. > :05:54.points. But what about the sense of points. But what about the sense of

:05:55. > :05:56.points. But what about the sense of entitlement Jim Murphy is talking

:05:56. > :05:57.entitlement Jim Murphy is talking entitlement Jim Murphy is talking

:05:57. > :05:58.about? Is the party complacent in about? Is the party complacent in

:05:58. > :05:58.about? Is the party complacent in about? Is the party complacent in

:05:58. > :05:59.areas of the country where they feel areas of the country where they feel

:05:59. > :06:02.areas of the country where they feel areas of the country where they feel

:06:02. > :06:03.they don't have to make an effort? they don't have to make an effort?

:06:03. > :06:05.they don't have to make an effort? they don't have to make an effort?

:06:05. > :06:06.hope not. I go round the country a hope not. I go round the country a

:06:06. > :06:07.hope not. I go round the country a lot. I have a meeting tomorrow

:06:07. > :06:08.lot. I have a meeting tomorrow lot. I have a meeting tomorrow

:06:08. > :06:12.lot. I have a meeting tomorrow evening in Norfolk. I don't get a

:06:12. > :06:13.evening in Norfolk. I don't get a evening in Norfolk. I don't get a

:06:13. > :06:14.evening in Norfolk. I don't get a sense of complacency, I get a sense

:06:14. > :06:18.sense of complacency, I get a sense sense of complacency, I get a sense

:06:18. > :06:20.sense of complacency, I get a sense that we are more a party of

:06:20. > :06:20.that we are more a party of that we are more a party of

:06:20. > :06:21.that we are more a party of government than we were in 1979. We

:06:21. > :06:24.government than we were in 1979. We government than we were in 1979. We

:06:24. > :06:25.are not tearing ourselves to are not tearing ourselves to

:06:25. > :06:26.pieces, we have ministerial pieces, we have ministerial

:06:26. > :06:27.pieces, we have ministerial pieces, we have ministerial

:06:27. > :06:29.experience and want to get back into experience and want to get back into

:06:29. > :06:30.experience and want to get back into government as soon as possible.

:06:30. > :06:32.government as soon as possible. government as soon as possible.

:06:32. > :06:34.government as soon as possible. government as soon as possible.

:06:34. > :06:37.you want to get back in? I am not you want to get back in? I am not

:06:37. > :06:38.you want to get back in? I am not straining at the leash. I am

:06:38. > :06:40.straining at the leash. I am straining at the leash. I am

:06:40. > :06:40.enjoying life on the backbenches. enjoying life on the backbenches.

:06:40. > :06:44.enjoying life on the backbenches. enjoying life on the backbenches.

:06:44. > :06:44.There aren't any jobs left for you There aren't any jobs left for you

:06:44. > :06:47.There aren't any jobs left for you There aren't any jobs left for you

:06:47. > :06:47.to do! And on the This Week benches. to do! And on the This Week benches.

:06:48. > :06:49.to do! And on the This Week benches. Is the one nation message getting

:06:49. > :06:59.Is the one nation message getting Is the one nation message getting

:06:59. > :07:00.through? It was a brilliant speech, through? It was a brilliant speech,

:07:00. > :07:02.through? It was a brilliant speech, through? It was a brilliant speech,

:07:02. > :07:03.and the idea to say, there are 197 and the idea to say, there are 197

:07:03. > :07:04.and the idea to say, there are 197 and the idea to say, there are 197

:07:04. > :07:05.seat is we need to win outside seat is we need to win outside

:07:05. > :07:06.seat is we need to win outside seat is we need to win outside

:07:06. > :07:07.London and we behold ten of them, London and we behold ten of them,

:07:07. > :07:08.London and we behold ten of them, London and we behold ten of them,

:07:08. > :07:11.this one nation message must be part this one nation message must be part

:07:11. > :07:12.this one nation message must be part this one nation message must be part

:07:12. > :07:13.of this. It did not get through in of this. It did not get through in

:07:13. > :07:20.of this. It did not get through in Eastleigh. We were never going to

:07:20. > :07:21.Eastleigh. We were never going to Eastleigh. We were never going to

:07:21. > :07:25.win Eastleigh. Maybe not, but were win Eastleigh. Maybe not, but were

:07:25. > :07:25.win Eastleigh. Maybe not, but were they saying one nation Labour?

:07:25. > :07:26.they saying one nation Labour? they saying one nation Labour?

:07:26. > :07:27.they saying one nation Labour? were the only party to increase our

:07:27. > :07:34.were the only party to increase our were the only party to increase our

:07:34. > :07:38.were the only party to increase our share of the vote. By 0.2%! Should

:07:38. > :07:40.share of the vote. By 0.2%! Should share of the vote. By 0.2%! Should

:07:40. > :07:41.share of the vote. By 0.2%! Should Ed Balls go? It has been said that

:07:41. > :07:42.Ed Balls go? It has been said that Ed Balls go? It has been said that

:07:42. > :07:43.Ed Balls go? It has been said that he is too tainted by the past, and

:07:43. > :07:45.he is too tainted by the past, and he is too tainted by the past, and

:07:45. > :07:46.he is too tainted by the past, and that would help the poll ratings.

:07:46. > :07:49.that would help the poll ratings. that would help the poll ratings.

:07:49. > :07:51.that would help the poll ratings. would not go along with that. What

:07:51. > :07:52.would not go along with that. What would not go along with that. What

:07:52. > :07:56.Ed Balls said in the Bloomberg Ed Balls said in the Bloomberg

:07:56. > :07:57.Ed Balls said in the Bloomberg speech was right. I remember

:07:57. > :07:59.speech was right. I remember speech was right. I remember

:07:59. > :07:59.Geoffrey Howe, as that Japan's Mike Geoffrey Howe, as that Japan's Mike

:07:59. > :08:01.Geoffrey Howe, as that Japan's Mike Shadow Chancellor, was not popular

:08:01. > :08:07.Shadow Chancellor, was not popular either. Shadow Chancellor's don't

:08:07. > :08:08.either. Shadow Chancellor's don't either. Shadow Chancellor's don't

:08:08. > :08:10.either. Shadow Chancellor's don't have to be popular. So go now, come

:08:10. > :08:14.have to be popular. So go now, come have to be popular. So go now, come

:08:14. > :08:15.back in 2016? That would be ridiculous.

:08:15. > :08:17.ridiculous. ridiculous.

:08:17. > :08:19.ridiculous. I have been told. Now, time for our

:08:19. > :08:20.I have been told. Now, time for our I have been told. Now, time for our

:08:20. > :08:20.I have been told. Now, time for our daily quiz. It was the hot topic at

:08:21. > :08:21.daily quiz. It was the hot topic at Prime Minister's Questions

:08:21. > :08:22.Prime Minister's Questions Prime Minister's Questions

:08:22. > :08:23.Prime Minister's Questions yesterday, so let's find out if our

:08:23. > :08:24.yesterday, so let's find out if our yesterday, so let's find out if our

:08:24. > :08:25.guest was paying attention. Can you guest was paying attention. Can you

:08:25. > :08:30.guest was paying attention. Can you guest was paying attention. Can you

:08:30. > :08:31.tell us which of these is the odd tell us which of these is the odd

:08:31. > :08:32.tell us which of these is the odd tell us which of these is the odd

:08:32. > :08:34.one out? Is it the bedroom tax, the one out? Is it the bedroom tax, the

:08:34. > :08:36.one out? Is it the bedroom tax, the spare room subsidy, the study

:08:36. > :08:36.spare room subsidy, the study spare room subsidy, the study

:08:36. > :08:37.surcharge or social housing under surcharge or social housing under

:08:37. > :08:39.surcharge or social housing under surcharge or social housing under

:08:39. > :08:39.occupancy policy? At the end of the occupancy policy? At the end of the

:08:40. > :08:43.occupancy policy? At the end of the occupancy policy? At the end of the

:08:43. > :08:44.show, Alan Johnson will give us the correct answer.

:08:44. > :08:45.correct answer. correct answer.

:08:45. > :08:47.correct answer. I do know the answer. Anyway, while

:08:47. > :08:48.I do know the answer. Anyway, while I do know the answer. Anyway, while

:08:48. > :08:49.I do know the answer. Anyway, while we have been on air, the Bank of

:08:49. > :08:50.we have been on air, the Bank of we have been on air, the Bank of

:08:50. > :08:51.England is reporting that interest England is reporting that interest

:08:51. > :08:55.England is reporting that interest rates will remain unchanged at 0.5

:08:55. > :08:55.rates will remain unchanged at 0.5 rates will remain unchanged at 0.5

:08:55. > :08:56.rates will remain unchanged at 0.5 cent. It is the lowest since the

:08:56. > :08:57.cent. It is the lowest since the cent. It is the lowest since the

:08:57. > :08:59.cent. It is the lowest since the Bank of England was founded. That is

:08:59. > :09:00.Bank of England was founded. That is Bank of England was founded. That is

:09:00. > :09:01.not a surprise. It is slightly not a surprise. It is slightly

:09:01. > :09:02.not a surprise. It is slightly surprising that there was no

:09:02. > :09:04.surprising that there was no surprising that there was no

:09:04. > :09:07.announcement about more printing of announcement about more printing of

:09:07. > :09:09.announcement about more printing of money, quantitative easing. Not this

:09:09. > :09:11.money, quantitative easing. Not this money, quantitative easing. Not this

:09:11. > :09:12.month, anyway. It is still an month, anyway. It is still an

:09:12. > :09:12.month, anyway. It is still an month, anyway. It is still an

:09:12. > :09:17.argument going on in the Bank of argument going on in the Bank of

:09:17. > :09:18.England monetary policy committee. England monetary policy committee.

:09:18. > :09:19.England monetary policy committee. England monetary policy committee.

:09:19. > :09:20.0.5% again. Now, it is the subject 0.5% again. Now, it is the subject

:09:20. > :09:21.0.5% again. Now, it is the subject most voters are concerned about, so

:09:21. > :09:22.most voters are concerned about, so most voters are concerned about, so

:09:22. > :09:25.obviously politicians don't like to obviously politicians don't like to

:09:25. > :09:26.obviously politicians don't like to talk honestly about it. But this

:09:26. > :09:27.talk honestly about it. But this morning, Shadow Home Secretary

:09:27. > :09:28.morning, Shadow Home Secretary morning, Shadow Home Secretary

:09:28. > :09:30.Yvette Cooper decided to tackle the Yvette Cooper decided to tackle the

:09:30. > :09:31.Yvette Cooper decided to tackle the thorny subject of immigration. She

:09:31. > :09:32.thorny subject of immigration. She thorny subject of immigration. She

:09:32. > :09:34.wanted to set out Labour's thinking wanted to set out Labour's thinking

:09:34. > :09:35.wanted to set out Labour's thinking wanted to set out Labour's thinking

:09:35. > :09:36.and, wait for it, admitted that the and, wait for it, admitted that the

:09:36. > :09:39.and, wait for it, admitted that the party made mistakes when in power.

:09:39. > :09:40.party made mistakes when in power. party made mistakes when in power.

:09:40. > :09:41.party made mistakes when in power. We know Britain cannot and must not

:09:41. > :09:42.We know Britain cannot and must not We know Britain cannot and must not

:09:42. > :09:44.plot the drawbridge on the outside plot the drawbridge on the outside

:09:44. > :09:46.plot the drawbridge on the outside world. We also know that immigration

:09:46. > :09:47.world. We also know that immigration world. We also know that immigration

:09:47. > :09:49.world. We also know that immigration needs to work for all, and many in

:09:49. > :09:50.needs to work for all, and many in needs to work for all, and many in

:09:50. > :09:51.Britain think it doesn't. Mass Britain think it doesn't. Mass

:09:51. > :09:53.Britain think it doesn't. Mass migration can cause stresses and

:09:53. > :09:53.migration can cause stresses and migration can cause stresses and

:09:53. > :09:54.strains, making it harder for people strains, making it harder for people

:09:54. > :10:00.strains, making it harder for people to put down roots or build

:10:00. > :10:00.to put down roots or build to put down roots or build

:10:00. > :10:01.communities. It can create economic communities. It can create economic

:10:01. > :10:03.and political tensions when and political tensions when

:10:03. > :10:04.and political tensions when resources are tight. Labour got

:10:04. > :10:06.resources are tight. Labour got resources are tight. Labour got

:10:06. > :10:07.something is wrong on immigration. something is wrong on immigration.

:10:07. > :10:08.something is wrong on immigration. something is wrong on immigration.

:10:08. > :10:09.We did tackle many problems in the We did tackle many problems in the

:10:09. > :10:12.We did tackle many problems in the asylum system that we inherited

:10:12. > :10:13.asylum system that we inherited asylum system that we inherited

:10:13. > :10:13.after 1997. We also wrote in after 1997. We also wrote in

:10:13. > :10:15.after 1997. We also wrote in stronger border checks, but we

:10:15. > :10:16.stronger border checks, but we stronger border checks, but we

:10:16. > :10:17.should have been quicker to should have been quicker to

:10:17. > :10:18.should have been quicker to introduce the Australian style macro

:10:18. > :10:20.introduce the Australian style macro introduce the Australian style macro

:10:20. > :10:21.points -based system, and we should points -based system, and we should

:10:21. > :10:22.points -based system, and we should have kept the transitional controls

:10:22. > :10:24.have kept the transitional controls have kept the transitional controls

:10:24. > :10:25.for Eastern Europe. We should also for Eastern Europe. We should also

:10:25. > :10:26.for Eastern Europe. We should also for Eastern Europe. We should also

:10:26. > :10:27.have looked at the impact and be have looked at the impact and be

:10:27. > :10:28.have looked at the impact and be have looked at the impact and be

:10:28. > :10:29.ready to talk about the problems, so ready to talk about the problems, so

:10:29. > :10:29.ready to talk about the problems, so ready to talk about the problems, so

:10:29. > :10:31.we know that needs to change. We we know that needs to change. We

:10:31. > :10:32.we know that needs to change. We will support the government where it

:10:32. > :10:33.will support the government where it will support the government where it

:10:33. > :10:34.brings in sensible policies, and we brings in sensible policies, and we

:10:34. > :10:37.brings in sensible policies, and we will point out where they are

:10:37. > :10:37.will point out where they are will point out where they are

:10:37. > :10:39.getting things wrong. We will not getting things wrong. We will not

:10:39. > :10:40.getting things wrong. We will not getting things wrong. We will not

:10:40. > :10:42.enter into an arms race of rhetoric enter into an arms race of rhetoric

:10:42. > :10:43.enter into an arms race of rhetoric about immigration, and we hope the

:10:43. > :10:43.about immigration, and we hope the about immigration, and we hope the

:10:43. > :10:44.prime minister will not either, prime minister will not either,

:10:44. > :10:45.prime minister will not either, prime minister will not either,

:10:45. > :10:49.because it is not good for Britain because it is not good for Britain

:10:49. > :10:50.because it is not good for Britain and it is not honest.

:10:50. > :10:51.and it is not honest. and it is not honest.

:10:51. > :10:54.and it is not honest. We are joined now by the immigration

:10:54. > :10:56.We are joined now by the immigration We are joined now by the immigration

:10:56. > :10:57.Minister, Mark Harper. It has been Minister, Mark Harper. It has been

:10:57. > :10:58.Minister, Mark Harper. It has been suggested that you are looking at

:10:58. > :11:01.suggested that you are looking at suggested that you are looking at

:11:01. > :11:02.changes to allow councils to give changes to allow councils to give

:11:02. > :11:08.council housing social housing council housing social housing

:11:08. > :11:10.council housing social housing priority to local people. It is

:11:10. > :11:13.priority to local people. It is priority to local people. It is

:11:13. > :11:13.basically to deter the perception basically to deter the perception

:11:13. > :11:15.basically to deter the perception that immigrants jump to housing

:11:15. > :11:16.that immigrants jump to housing that immigrants jump to housing

:11:16. > :11:16.that immigrants jump to housing queue. Is that true? It is one of

:11:16. > :11:18.queue. Is that true? It is one of queue. Is that true? It is one of

:11:18. > :11:20.queue. Is that true? It is one of the things we are looking at. To

:11:20. > :11:20.the things we are looking at. To the things we are looking at. To

:11:20. > :11:21.the things we are looking at. To pick up on something in that speech,

:11:21. > :11:22.pick up on something in that speech, pick up on something in that speech,

:11:22. > :11:26.pick up on something in that speech, we did not hear an apology for the

:11:26. > :11:27.we did not hear an apology for the we did not hear an apology for the

:11:27. > :11:28.mistakes Labour made. They did not mistakes Labour made. They did not

:11:28. > :11:30.mistakes Labour made. They did not hand over an immigration system in

:11:30. > :11:31.hand over an immigration system in hand over an immigration system in

:11:31. > :11:32.good control. They handed over 5000 good control. They handed over 5000

:11:32. > :11:34.good control. They handed over 5000 good control. They handed over 5000

:11:34. > :11:35.asylum cases that we had to work asylum cases that we had to work

:11:35. > :11:36.asylum cases that we had to work through. We had net migration

:11:36. > :11:37.through. We had net migration through. We had net migration

:11:37. > :11:38.through. We had net migration running at over 200 thousand a year

:11:38. > :11:39.running at over 200 thousand a year running at over 200 thousand a year

:11:39. > :11:42.running at over 200 thousand a year for a 10-year period. We have now

:11:42. > :11:42.for a 10-year period. We have now for a 10-year period. We have now

:11:42. > :11:47.for a 10-year period. We have now seen net migration for by a third in

:11:47. > :11:48.seen net migration for by a third in seen net migration for by a third in

:11:48. > :11:51.seen net migration for by a third in two years. She has backed none of

:11:52. > :11:52.two years. She has backed none of two years. She has backed none of

:11:52. > :11:56.two years. She has backed none of our changes. Let's get back to my

:11:57. > :12:01.our changes. Let's get back to my our changes. Let's get back to my

:12:01. > :12:02.questions. What will happen with the questions. What will happen with the

:12:02. > :12:05.questions. What will happen with the residency trust? -- residency test?

:12:05. > :12:05.residency trust? -- residency test? residency trust? -- residency test?

:12:06. > :12:07.residency trust? -- residency test? Last week, as I said, we have a

:12:07. > :12:10.Last week, as I said, we have a Last week, as I said, we have a

:12:10. > :12:11.committee of ministers across the committee of ministers across the

:12:11. > :12:14.committee of ministers across the government. I am chairing that

:12:14. > :12:14.government. I am chairing that government. I am chairing that

:12:14. > :12:15.government. I am chairing that group. We are looking at all of

:12:15. > :12:17.group. We are looking at all of group. We are looking at all of

:12:17. > :12:18.group. We are looking at all of these policies to look at what we

:12:18. > :12:18.these policies to look at what we these policies to look at what we

:12:18. > :12:19.these policies to look at what we offer to migrants, those from the EU

:12:20. > :12:21.offer to migrants, those from the EU offer to migrants, those from the EU

:12:21. > :12:24.offer to migrants, those from the EU and outside the EU. What we have

:12:24. > :12:25.and outside the EU. What we have and outside the EU. What we have

:12:25. > :12:25.made some decisions, we will made some decisions, we will

:12:25. > :12:26.made some decisions, we will announce them to Parliament and then

:12:26. > :12:27.announce them to Parliament and then announce them to Parliament and then

:12:27. > :12:28.announce them to Parliament and then I will come back on the program and

:12:28. > :12:29.I will come back on the program and I will come back on the program and

:12:29. > :12:30.I will come back on the program and discuss them will stop that was only

:12:30. > :12:32.discuss them will stop that was only discuss them will stop that was only

:12:32. > :12:33.discuss them will stop that was only discuss them will stop that was only

:12:33. > :12:34.a week ago, so it is unfair of you a week ago, so it is unfair of you

:12:34. > :12:34.a week ago, so it is unfair of you a week ago, so it is unfair of you

:12:34. > :12:39.to expect me to have made decisions to expect me to have made decisions

:12:39. > :12:41.to expect me to have made decisions in that time. But changing the

:12:41. > :12:43.in that time. But changing the in that time. But changing the

:12:43. > :12:44.residency test to deter people from residency test to deter people from

:12:44. > :12:45.residency test to deter people from coming here is under discussion?

:12:45. > :12:46.coming here is under discussion? coming here is under discussion?

:12:46. > :12:48.coming here is under discussion? are looking at it. If you are coming

:12:48. > :12:49.are looking at it. If you are coming are looking at it. If you are coming

:12:49. > :12:50.are looking at it. If you are coming here to work, you are then entitled

:12:50. > :12:51.here to work, you are then entitled here to work, you are then entitled

:12:51. > :12:52.here to work, you are then entitled to in work benefits. If you lose

:12:52. > :12:52.to in work benefits. If you lose to in work benefits. If you lose

:12:52. > :12:53.your job, you can then continue your job, you can then continue

:12:53. > :12:54.your job, you can then continue your job, you can then continue

:12:54. > :12:56.claiming them will stop there is a claiming them will stop there is a

:12:56. > :12:58.claiming them will stop there is a claiming them will stop there is a

:12:58. > :12:59.debate to be had about how long that debate to be had about how long that

:12:59. > :13:00.debate to be had about how long that debate continues. The secretary of

:13:00. > :13:02.debate continues. The secretary of debate continues. The secretary of

:13:02. > :13:04.state, Iain Duncan Smith, set that state, Iain Duncan Smith, set that

:13:04. > :13:05.state, Iain Duncan Smith, set that state, Iain Duncan Smith, set that

:13:05. > :13:06.out in the house. What about the out in the house. What about the

:13:06. > :13:08.out in the house. What about the idea of a benefits bond for

:13:08. > :13:09.idea of a benefits bond for idea of a benefits bond for

:13:09. > :13:11.immigrants where you would be immigrants where you would be

:13:11. > :13:11.immigrants where you would be immigrants where you would be

:13:12. > :13:13.entitled to put cash down when you entitled to put cash down when you

:13:13. > :13:14.entitled to put cash down when you entitled to put cash down when you

:13:14. > :13:16.came to the UK and you could then came to the UK and you could then

:13:16. > :13:19.choose the countries these choose the countries these

:13:19. > :13:20.choose the countries these immigrants came from? We are looking

:13:20. > :13:21.immigrants came from? We are looking immigrants came from? We are looking

:13:21. > :13:22.immigrants came from? We are looking at a range of options. I will not

:13:22. > :13:23.at a range of options. I will not at a range of options. I will not

:13:23. > :13:24.give you a running commentary on give you a running commentary on

:13:24. > :13:26.give you a running commentary on give you a running commentary on

:13:26. > :13:29.every idea that has been put into every idea that has been put into

:13:29. > :13:30.the newspapers that commentators the newspapers that commentators

:13:30. > :13:31.the newspapers that commentators have suggested. But are you

:13:31. > :13:34.have suggested. But are you have suggested. But are you

:13:34. > :13:41.considering it? We are considering a considering it? We are considering a

:13:41. > :13:44.considering it? We are considering a range of options. But what about

:13:44. > :13:45.range of options. But what about range of options. But what about

:13:45. > :13:46.range of options. But what about that option? You have said you will

:13:46. > :13:47.that option? You have said you will that option? You have said you will

:13:47. > :13:49.that option? You have said you will not tell me what the residency test

:13:49. > :13:49.not tell me what the residency test not tell me what the residency test

:13:49. > :13:50.not tell me what the residency test will be, but you are looking at it.

:13:50. > :13:52.will be, but you are looking at it. will be, but you are looking at it.

:13:52. > :13:52.will be, but you are looking at it. Why can't you tell me whether you

:13:52. > :13:56.Why can't you tell me whether you Why can't you tell me whether you

:13:56. > :13:57.Why can't you tell me whether you are looking at a benefit on?

:13:57. > :13:58.are looking at a benefit on? are looking at a benefit on?

:13:58. > :13:59.habitual residency test is something habitual residency test is something

:13:59. > :14:00.habitual residency test is something habitual residency test is something

:14:00. > :14:01.the secretary of state set out in the secretary of state set out in

:14:01. > :14:04.the secretary of state set out in Parliament and said we were looking

:14:04. > :14:07.Parliament and said we were looking Parliament and said we were looking

:14:07. > :14:08.Parliament and said we were looking at. There are lots of ideas that get

:14:08. > :14:09.at. There are lots of ideas that get at. There are lots of ideas that get

:14:09. > :14:10.put forward in newspapers. We are put forward in newspapers. We are

:14:10. > :14:11.put forward in newspapers. We are put forward in newspapers. We are

:14:11. > :14:12.looking at a range of options that looking at a range of options that

:14:12. > :14:13.looking at a range of options that looking at a range of options that

:14:13. > :14:14.we think might be successful. I am we think might be successful. I am

:14:14. > :14:15.we think might be successful. I am we think might be successful. I am

:14:15. > :14:16.not going to go through every idea not going to go through every idea

:14:16. > :14:17.not going to go through every idea not going to go through every idea

:14:17. > :14:18.that gets put into a newspaper and that gets put into a newspaper and

:14:18. > :14:19.that gets put into a newspaper and that gets put into a newspaper and

:14:19. > :14:20.tell you whether we are going to tell you whether we are going to

:14:20. > :14:22.tell you whether we are going to tell you whether we are going to

:14:22. > :14:23.consider it. We will set out our consider it. We will set out our

:14:23. > :14:24.consider it. We will set out our position one we have made some

:14:24. > :14:24.position one we have made some position one we have made some

:14:24. > :14:26.decisions is. The public will then decisions is. The public will then

:14:26. > :14:27.decisions is. The public will then decisions is. The public will then

:14:27. > :14:37.decisions is. The public will then see a clear plan to make sure we are

:14:37. > :14:39.

:14:39. > :14:41.see a clear plan to make sure we are You had been boasting about the

:14:42. > :14:42.You had been boasting about the You had been boasting about the

:14:42. > :14:44.next migration figures. It was the next migration figures. It was the

:14:44. > :14:47.next migration figures. It was the same as when I was Foreign

:14:47. > :14:48.same as when I was Foreign same as when I was Foreign

:14:48. > :14:50.same as when I was Foreign Secretary. It was one hand and 79

:14:50. > :14:52.Secretary. It was one hand and 79 Secretary. It was one hand and 79

:14:53. > :14:56.Secretary. It was one hand and 79 and then rose to 224,000. That was

:14:56. > :14:57.and then rose to 224,000. That was and then rose to 224,000. That was

:14:57. > :15:01.in 2010. Figures announced in 2008, in 2010. Figures announced in 2008,

:15:01. > :15:05.in 2010. Figures announced in 2008, the year behind, was exactly

:15:05. > :15:06.the year behind, was exactly the year behind, was exactly

:15:06. > :15:09.163,000. The figures you have got 163,000. The figures you have got

:15:09. > :15:10.163,000. The figures you have got 163,000. The figures you have got

:15:10. > :15:14.up for the next year. No, 2009, I up for the next year. No, 2009, I

:15:14. > :15:16.up for the next year. No, 2009, I up for the next year. No, 2009, I

:15:16. > :15:19.have it here. The figures were the have it here. The figures were the

:15:20. > :15:21.have it here. The figures were the 2008, announced in 2009, was

:15:21. > :15:23.2008, announced in 2009, was 2008, announced in 2009, was

:15:23. > :15:24.163,000 net migration. Is it not 163,000 net migration. Is it not

:15:24. > :15:25.163,000 net migration. Is it not the case when the Romanians and

:15:25. > :15:27.the case when the Romanians and the case when the Romanians and

:15:27. > :15:28.Bulgarians are allowed to come here Bulgarians are allowed to come here

:15:28. > :15:30.Bulgarians are allowed to come here Bulgarians are allowed to come here

:15:30. > :15:31.at the start of next year, your net at the start of next year, your net

:15:31. > :15:34.at the start of next year, your net migration figures will be blown to

:15:34. > :15:36.migration figures will be blown to migration figures will be blown to

:15:36. > :15:37.smithereens? The answer is, I do smithereens? The answer is, I do

:15:37. > :15:41.smithereens? The answer is, I do not know. We won't make speculative

:15:41. > :15:44.not know. We won't make speculative forecasts. Commentators have made

:15:44. > :15:45.forecasts. Commentators have made forecasts. Commentators have made

:15:45. > :15:47.speculative forecasts. The big ones speculative forecasts. The big ones

:15:47. > :15:48.speculative forecasts. The big ones like France, Germany and Spain have

:15:48. > :15:48.like France, Germany and Spain have like France, Germany and Spain have

:15:48. > :15:49.transitional controls and they all transitional controls and they all

:15:49. > :15:50.transitional controls and they all transitional controls and they all

:15:50. > :15:51.transitional controls and they all have to come off at the end of this

:15:51. > :15:53.have to come off at the end of this have to come off at the end of this

:15:53. > :15:55.have to come off at the end of this year. Not just in Britain but in

:15:55. > :15:57.year. Not just in Britain but in year. Not just in Britain but in

:15:57. > :15:59.year. Not just in Britain but in those year -- countries as well.

:15:59. > :16:00.those year -- countries as well. those year -- countries as well.

:16:00. > :16:03.could reverse the decline? There is could reverse the decline? There is

:16:03. > :16:04.could reverse the decline? There is no evidence of that. Really?Trying

:16:04. > :16:06.no evidence of that. Really?Trying no evidence of that. Really?Trying

:16:06. > :16:07.to make forecasts are like that... to make forecasts are like that...

:16:07. > :16:08.to make forecasts are like that... to make forecasts are like that...

:16:08. > :16:10.I am not asking you to make I am not asking you to make

:16:10. > :16:11.I am not asking you to make forecasts, I said the numbers could

:16:11. > :16:12.forecasts, I said the numbers could forecasts, I said the numbers could

:16:13. > :16:15.be big enough to reverse the be big enough to reverse the

:16:15. > :16:16.be big enough to reverse the be big enough to reverse the

:16:16. > :16:17.decline. Do you know what the GDP decline. Do you know what the GDP

:16:17. > :16:19.decline. Do you know what the GDP per Capita is in Romania and

:16:19. > :16:22.per Capita is in Romania and per Capita is in Romania and

:16:22. > :16:23.Bulgaria? It is lower than here. Bulgaria? It is lower than here.

:16:23. > :16:24.Bulgaria? It is lower than here. Bulgaria? It is lower than here.

:16:24. > :16:25.But so is the cost of living. When But so is the cost of living. When

:16:25. > :16:28.But so is the cost of living. When you are making decisions about

:16:28. > :16:29.you are making decisions about you are making decisions about

:16:29. > :16:31.people moving from one country to people moving from one country to

:16:31. > :16:32.people moving from one country to another, they take into account, or

:16:32. > :16:33.another, they take into account, or another, they take into account, or

:16:33. > :16:34.the labour market and the benefits the labour market and the benefits

:16:34. > :16:36.the labour market and the benefits the labour market and the benefits

:16:36. > :16:37.system. We want to make sure that system. We want to make sure that

:16:37. > :16:37.system. We want to make sure that people don't think that coming to

:16:37. > :16:39.people don't think that coming to people don't think that coming to

:16:39. > :16:40.Britain is a way of getting Britain is a way of getting

:16:40. > :16:41.benefits and getting the benefits and getting the

:16:41. > :16:42.benefits and getting the opportunity of taking things away

:16:42. > :16:43.opportunity of taking things away opportunity of taking things away

:16:43. > :16:45.opportunity of taking things away from the country when you have not

:16:45. > :16:46.from the country when you have not from the country when you have not

:16:46. > :16:47.put anything into that. I think put anything into that. I think

:16:47. > :16:49.put anything into that. I think put anything into that. I think

:16:49. > :16:52.that is what the public wants us to that is what the public wants us to

:16:52. > :16:52.that is what the public wants us to that is what the public wants us to

:16:52. > :16:53.do. From the words from a Yvette do. From the words from a Yvette

:16:53. > :16:54.do. From the words from a Yvette do. From the words from a Yvette

:16:54. > :16:56.Cooper and Ed Miliband, is it not Cooper and Ed Miliband, is it not

:16:56. > :16:58.Cooper and Ed Miliband, is it not Cooper and Ed Miliband, is it not

:16:58. > :16:59.the case the words to the woman in the case the words to the woman in

:16:59. > :17:00.the case the words to the woman in Rochdale during the campaign when

:17:00. > :17:02.Rochdale during the campaign when Rochdale during the campaign when

:17:02. > :17:04.Rochdale during the campaign when he called her a bigot, that tells

:17:04. > :17:05.he called her a bigot, that tells he called her a bigot, that tells

:17:05. > :17:06.us what Labour's real attitude was us what Labour's real attitude was

:17:06. > :17:08.us what Labour's real attitude was to immigration when you were in

:17:08. > :17:10.to immigration when you were in to immigration when you were in

:17:10. > :17:12.to immigration when you were in power? No, it doesn't. It is unfair

:17:12. > :17:14.power? No, it doesn't. It is unfair power? No, it doesn't. It is unfair

:17:14. > :17:15.to Gordon Brown. When she said to Gordon Brown. When she said

:17:15. > :17:17.to Gordon Brown. When she said people were flocking to this

:17:17. > :17:18.people were flocking to this people were flocking to this

:17:18. > :17:21.country, Gordon thought she said country, Gordon thought she said

:17:21. > :17:23.country, Gordon thought she said something similar! If the economy

:17:23. > :17:25.something similar! If the economy something similar! If the economy

:17:25. > :17:25.something similar! If the economy gets any worse than it is, if the

:17:25. > :17:29.gets any worse than it is, if the gets any worse than it is, if the

:17:29. > :17:30.economy is bad, Mark might succeed economy is bad, Mark might succeed

:17:30. > :17:31.economy is bad, Mark might succeed economy is bad, Mark might succeed

:17:31. > :17:34.economy is bad, Mark might succeed - because he has got a target - of

:17:34. > :17:35.- because he has got a target - of - because he has got a target - of

:17:35. > :17:36.getting net migration down to tens getting net migration down to tens

:17:36. > :17:37.getting net migration down to tens getting net migration down to tens

:17:37. > :17:40.of thousands. He may succeed if the of thousands. He may succeed if the

:17:40. > :17:42.of thousands. He may succeed if the economy is dreadful. During our

:17:42. > :17:42.economy is dreadful. During our watch, globalisation meant there

:17:42. > :17:43.watch, globalisation meant there watch, globalisation meant there

:17:43. > :17:45.watch, globalisation meant there was a huge shift of people around

:17:45. > :17:46.was a huge shift of people around was a huge shift of people around

:17:46. > :17:47.the world, it affected every the world, it affected every

:17:47. > :17:48.the world, it affected every Western country and we were too

:17:48. > :17:50.Western country and we were too Western country and we were too

:17:50. > :17:51.Western country and we were too slow to deal with it. What Mark

:17:51. > :17:52.slow to deal with it. What Mark slow to deal with it. What Mark

:17:52. > :17:55.slow to deal with it. What Mark just said it is about taking 13

:17:55. > :17:55.just said it is about taking 13 just said it is about taking 13

:17:55. > :17:57.just said it is about taking 13 years on average. At the end of it,

:17:57. > :17:58.years on average. At the end of it, years on average. At the end of it,

:17:58. > :17:59.years on average. At the end of it, but points basis to me handed on

:17:59. > :18:00.but points basis to me handed on but points basis to me handed on

:18:00. > :18:02.but points basis to me handed on that they have not taken away - it

:18:02. > :18:04.that they have not taken away - it that they have not taken away - it

:18:04. > :18:04.that they have not taken away - it that they have not taken away - it

:18:04. > :18:06.will go up and the you. It went up will go up and the you. It went up

:18:06. > :18:07.will go up and the you. It went up on the youth. Already, you have

:18:07. > :18:11.on the youth. Already, you have on the youth. Already, you have

:18:11. > :18:12.been empowered the three years. been empowered the three years.

:18:12. > :18:14.Decent, mainstream politicians like Decent, mainstream politicians like

:18:14. > :18:16.Decent, mainstream politicians like Decent, mainstream politicians like

:18:16. > :18:17.Mark and myself, this is a bet Mark and myself, this is a bet

:18:17. > :18:18.Cooper's message this morning, Cooper's message this morning,

:18:18. > :18:20.Cooper's message this morning, shouldn't be arguing the way they

:18:20. > :18:21.shouldn't be arguing the way they shouldn't be arguing the way they

:18:22. > :18:22.are arguing on emigration. We are arguing on emigration. We

:18:23. > :18:23.are arguing on emigration. We are arguing on emigration. We

:18:24. > :18:24.believe the same thing, it is good believe the same thing, it is good

:18:24. > :18:25.believe the same thing, it is good believe the same thing, it is good

:18:25. > :18:28.but it needs to be controlled and but it needs to be controlled and

:18:28. > :18:29.but it needs to be controlled and but it needs to be controlled and

:18:29. > :18:31.people need to come here, keep the people need to come here, keep the

:18:31. > :18:33.people need to come here, keep the law, speak the language and pay

:18:33. > :18:35.law, speak the language and pay law, speak the language and pay

:18:35. > :18:36.taxes. This has affected every taxes. This has affected every

:18:36. > :18:37.taxes. This has affected every Western company -- country. It you

:18:37. > :18:39.Western company -- country. It you Western company -- country. It you

:18:39. > :18:40.can have a debate around these can have a debate around these

:18:40. > :18:43.can have a debate around these things, I am perfectly willing to

:18:43. > :18:45.things, I am perfectly willing to things, I am perfectly willing to

:18:45. > :18:46.things, I am perfectly willing to listen to an argument about a cat.

:18:46. > :18:48.listen to an argument about a cat. listen to an argument about a cat.

:18:48. > :18:49.listen to an argument about a cat. Alan is right when he says the

:18:49. > :18:51.Alan is right when he says the Alan is right when he says the

:18:51. > :18:52.pressure is there in terms of pressure is there in terms of

:18:52. > :18:53.globalisation movement. But other globalisation movement. But other

:18:53. > :18:55.globalisation movement. But other countries did not see the same

:18:55. > :18:56.countries did not see the same countries did not see the same

:18:56. > :18:58.rises. He is right about the rises. He is right about the

:18:58. > :19:00.rises. He is right about the economic growth, but the economy

:19:00. > :19:01.economic growth, but the economy economic growth, but the economy

:19:01. > :19:03.has created over one million has created over one million

:19:03. > :19:04.private sector jobs. Employment private sector jobs. Employment

:19:04. > :19:05.private sector jobs. Employment figures recently has shown the

:19:05. > :19:07.figures recently has shown the figures recently has shown the

:19:07. > :19:08.increase of people getting into increase of people getting into

:19:08. > :19:09.increase of people getting into increase of people getting into

:19:09. > :19:10.work, nine out of 10 of those work, nine out of 10 of those

:19:10. > :19:12.work, nine out of 10 of those people were British citizens or

:19:12. > :19:13.people were British citizens or people were British citizens or

:19:13. > :19:14.rather than foreign nationals. That rather than foreign nationals. That

:19:14. > :19:15.rather than foreign nationals. That rather than foreign nationals. That

:19:15. > :19:17.is something that was not true when is something that was not true when

:19:17. > :19:18.is something that was not true when Labour were in power. What about

:19:18. > :19:19.Labour were in power. What about Labour were in power. What about

:19:19. > :19:25.Labour were in power. What about making this clear, as a beck Cooper

:19:25. > :19:27.making this clear, as a beck Cooper making this clear, as a beck Cooper

:19:27. > :19:29.did this morning, two verts of did this morning, two verts of

:19:29. > :19:31.did this morning, two verts of migration are Brits. Brits who have

:19:31. > :19:32.migration are Brits. Brits who have migration are Brits. Brits who have

:19:32. > :19:33.been living abroad and coming back been living abroad and coming back

:19:33. > :19:35.been living abroad and coming back to this country are counted as

:19:36. > :19:37.to this country are counted as to this country are counted as

:19:37. > :19:39.immigrants. So people saying these immigrants. So people saying these

:19:39. > :19:42.people coming from different people coming from different

:19:43. > :19:44.countries, the biggest country countries, the biggest country

:19:44. > :19:45.countries, the biggest country people were coming from was Britain.

:19:45. > :19:47.people were coming from was Britain. people were coming from was Britain.

:19:47. > :19:48.people were coming from was Britain. You can defuse some of the argument

:19:48. > :19:49.You can defuse some of the argument You can defuse some of the argument

:19:49. > :19:53.that the non- decent, extreme that the non- decent, extreme

:19:53. > :19:53.that the non- decent, extreme politicians tried to put around

:19:53. > :19:55.politicians tried to put around politicians tried to put around

:19:55. > :19:56.immigration he just quote these immigration he just quote these

:19:56. > :19:58.immigration he just quote these immigration he just quote these

:19:58. > :19:59.facts. Except it is not a fact, net facts. Except it is not a fact, net

:19:59. > :20:01.facts. Except it is not a fact, net facts. Except it is not a fact, net

:20:01. > :20:05.migration in your last year as Home migration in your last year as Home

:20:05. > :20:06.migration in your last year as Home Secretary was 224,000, of which

:20:06. > :20:07.Secretary was 224,000, of which Secretary was 224,000, of which

:20:07. > :20:08.160,000 were non EU members or 160,000 were non EU members or

:20:08. > :20:12.160,000 were non EU members or 160,000 were non EU members or

:20:12. > :20:13.citizen. The Brits made part of it, citizen. The Brits made part of it,

:20:13. > :20:14.citizen. The Brits made part of it, but you're allowed in the majority

:20:14. > :20:16.but you're allowed in the majority but you're allowed in the majority

:20:16. > :20:17.but you're allowed in the majority of the net which was made up of

:20:17. > :20:18.of the net which was made up of of the net which was made up of

:20:18. > :20:19.of the net which was made up of non- EU members. I will take five

:20:19. > :20:20.non- EU members. I will take five non- EU members. I will take five

:20:20. > :20:21.months responsibility the 2010, the months responsibility the 2010, the

:20:21. > :20:24.months responsibility the 2010, the rest of it was under this

:20:24. > :20:25.rest of it was under this rest of it was under this

:20:25. > :20:26.Government. It was under your Government. It was under your

:20:26. > :20:28.Government. It was under your policies. Since we have been in

:20:28. > :20:30.policies. Since we have been in policies. Since we have been in

:20:30. > :20:30.power, because that came out last power, because that came out last

:20:31. > :20:31.power, because that came out last power, because that came out last

:20:31. > :20:32.week showed a fall of over a third week showed a fall of over a third

:20:32. > :20:34.week showed a fall of over a third week showed a fall of over a third

:20:34. > :20:37.and most of that was a cut in and most of that was a cut in

:20:37. > :20:38.immigration, the lowest number immigration, the lowest number

:20:38. > :20:39.immigration, the lowest number immigration, the lowest number

:20:39. > :20:40.since 2003. When you look at the since 2003. When you look at the

:20:40. > :20:42.since 2003. When you look at the since 2003. When you look at the

:20:42. > :20:43.short term, there is a touch of was short term, there is a touch of was

:20:43. > :20:44.short term, there is a touch of was talking about this morning? I don't

:20:44. > :20:45.talking about this morning? I don't talking about this morning? I don't

:20:46. > :20:49.think there is any evidence there think there is any evidence there

:20:49. > :20:50.think there is any evidence there is a problem. Those are students

:20:50. > :20:52.is a problem. Those are students coming into English-language

:20:52. > :20:53.coming into English-language coming into English-language

:20:53. > :20:54.coming into English-language schools on short courses. If we see

:20:54. > :20:56.schools on short courses. If we see schools on short courses. If we see

:20:56. > :20:56.evidence there is a problem, of evidence there is a problem, of

:20:56. > :20:59.evidence there is a problem, of evidence there is a problem, of

:20:59. > :21:01.course we will deal with it, as we course we will deal with it, as we

:21:01. > :21:01.course we will deal with it, as we course we will deal with it, as we

:21:01. > :21:02.have since the election. It is not have since the election. It is not

:21:02. > :21:03.have since the election. It is not in the net migration figures, that

:21:03. > :21:06.in the net migration figures, that in the net migration figures, that

:21:06. > :21:07.in the net migration figures, that is why they ignore it. Thanks for

:21:07. > :21:12.is why they ignore it. Thanks for is why they ignore it. Thanks for

:21:12. > :21:13.coming on. Come back. I will. coming on. Come back. I will.

:21:13. > :21:14.Now yesterday William Hague Now yesterday William Hague

:21:14. > :21:15.announced that armoured vehicles announced that armoured vehicles

:21:15. > :21:17.announced that armoured vehicles would be sent to help opposition

:21:17. > :21:18.would be sent to help opposition would be sent to help opposition

:21:18. > :21:19.forces fighting in Syria. The forces fighting in Syria. The

:21:19. > :21:20.forces fighting in Syria. The Foreign Secretary said he hoped the

:21:20. > :21:23.Foreign Secretary said he hoped the Foreign Secretary said he hoped the

:21:23. > :21:24.equipment would help save lives. It equipment would help save lives. It

:21:24. > :21:25.was a controversial announcement was a controversial announcement

:21:25. > :21:26.which didn't please everyone. which didn't please everyone.

:21:26. > :21:36.which didn't please everyone. Here's a flavour of the Commons

:21:36. > :21:37.

:21:37. > :21:40.yesterday afternoon. yesterday afternoon.

:21:40. > :21:41.yesterday afternoon. We will also provide non-lethal

:21:41. > :21:42.We will also provide non-lethal protection of civilians, going

:21:42. > :21:44.protection of civilians, going protection of civilians, going

:21:44. > :21:45.protection of civilians, going beyond what we have done before. We

:21:45. > :21:47.beyond what we have done before. We are identifying the protective

:21:47. > :21:49.are identifying the protective are identifying the protective

:21:49. > :21:49.equipment which will be of most equipment which will be of most

:21:49. > :21:51.equipment which will be of most assistance to them and likely to

:21:51. > :21:52.assistance to them and likely to assistance to them and likely to

:21:52. > :21:53.assistance to them and likely to save most lives. I will keep the

:21:53. > :21:55.save most lives. I will keep the save most lives. I will keep the

:21:55. > :21:57.save most lives. I will keep the House of dated, but it will include

:21:57. > :21:58.House of dated, but it will include armoured, four-wheel-drive vehicles

:21:58. > :21:59.armoured, four-wheel-drive vehicles armoured, four-wheel-drive vehicles

:21:59. > :22:01.to help opposition figures to move to help opposition figures to move

:22:01. > :22:03.to help opposition figures to move around freely, as well as personal

:22:03. > :22:06.around freely, as well as personal protection equipment, including

:22:06. > :22:07.protection equipment, including protection equipment, including

:22:07. > :22:08.body armour. Surely the priority body armour. Surely the priority

:22:08. > :22:09.body armour. Surely the priority body armour. Surely the priority

:22:09. > :22:10.for Britain should be to unify the for Britain should be to unify the

:22:10. > :22:13.for Britain should be to unify the Syrian opposition, not to on it.

:22:13. > :22:14.Syrian opposition, not to on it. Syrian opposition, not to on it.

:22:14. > :22:16.The continuing loss of life The continuing loss of life

:22:16. > :22:17.The continuing loss of life The continuing loss of life

:22:17. > :22:18.underlines the fact it needs to see underlines the fact it needs to see

:22:18. > :22:20.a de-escalation and political a de-escalation and political

:22:20. > :22:21.resolution. While the Government resolution. While the Government

:22:21. > :22:23.resolution. While the Government resolution. While the Government

:22:23. > :22:25.has our support for its actions to has our support for its actions to

:22:25. > :22:26.provide humanitarian and non-lethal provide humanitarian and non-lethal

:22:26. > :22:26.provide humanitarian and non-lethal provide humanitarian and non-lethal

:22:27. > :22:28.assistance to Syria, it is far from assistance to Syria, it is far from

:22:28. > :22:28.assistance to Syria, it is far from clear that taking steps to

:22:28. > :22:30.clear that taking steps to clear that taking steps to

:22:30. > :22:31.intensive by this conflict in the intensive by this conflict in the

:22:31. > :22:32.intensive by this conflict in the months ahead, would do anything to

:22:32. > :22:33.months ahead, would do anything to months ahead, would do anything to

:22:33. > :22:34.reduce the present level of reduce the present level of

:22:34. > :22:38.reduce the present level of violence being suffered by the

:22:38. > :22:40.violence being suffered by the violence being suffered by the

:22:40. > :22:41.Syrian people. While I welcome the Syrian people. While I welcome the

:22:41. > :22:42.Syrian people. While I welcome the Foreign Secretary's speech and the

:22:42. > :22:43.Foreign Secretary's speech and the Foreign Secretary's speech and the

:22:43. > :22:44.measures he has announced, I regret measures he has announced, I regret

:22:44. > :22:45.measures he has announced, I regret measures he has announced, I regret

:22:45. > :22:46.measures he has announced, I regret to say I cannot see how any of them

:22:46. > :22:47.to say I cannot see how any of them to say I cannot see how any of them

:22:47. > :22:49.will have any serious prospect of will have any serious prospect of

:22:49. > :22:51.will have any serious prospect of reducing the length of this

:22:51. > :22:52.reducing the length of this conflict and preventing the

:22:52. > :22:54.conflict and preventing the conflict and preventing the

:22:54. > :22:55.massacre of tens of thousands of massacre of tens of thousands of

:22:55. > :22:56.massacre of tens of thousands of massacre of tens of thousands of

:22:56. > :22:57.more Syrians. In my judgment he is more Syrians. In my judgment he is

:22:57. > :22:59.more Syrians. In my judgment he is more Syrians. In my judgment he is

:22:59. > :23:03.right not to rule out the option of right not to rule out the option of

:23:03. > :23:03.direct, military supplies. The direct, military supplies. The

:23:04. > :23:06.strategic, diplomatic consequences strategic, diplomatic consequences

:23:06. > :23:07.strategic, diplomatic consequences of any such decision, and the

:23:07. > :23:09.of any such decision, and the of any such decision, and the

:23:09. > :23:11.of any such decision, and the degree to which we can get bogged

:23:11. > :23:12.degree to which we can get bogged degree to which we can get bogged

:23:12. > :23:12.degree to which we can get bogged degree to which we can get bogged

:23:12. > :23:13.down in a kind of cold war, a proxy down in a kind of cold war, a proxy

:23:13. > :23:15.down in a kind of cold war, a proxy down in a kind of cold war, a proxy

:23:15. > :23:17.war in that situation, needs to be war in that situation, needs to be

:23:17. > :23:18.war in that situation, needs to be thought through carefully before we

:23:18. > :23:19.thought through carefully before we thought through carefully before we

:23:19. > :23:21.make a positive decision. Is there make a positive decision. Is there

:23:21. > :23:21.make a positive decision. Is there make a positive decision. Is there

:23:21. > :23:23.any chance we can put all our any chance we can put all our

:23:23. > :23:26.any chance we can put all our efforts into getting a ceasefire

:23:26. > :23:28.efforts into getting a ceasefire efforts into getting a ceasefire

:23:28. > :23:29.arranged, so that in that ceasefire arranged, so that in that ceasefire

:23:29. > :23:30.arranged, so that in that ceasefire when the guns stop and civilians

:23:30. > :23:31.when the guns stop and civilians when the guns stop and civilians

:23:31. > :23:33.stop being killed, we might stop being killed, we might

:23:33. > :23:33.stop being killed, we might stop being killed, we might

:23:33. > :23:36.actually be able to use politics to actually be able to use politics to

:23:36. > :23:37.solve the situation. solve the situation.

:23:37. > :23:38.solve the situation. solve the situation.

:23:38. > :23:43.Joining us now is chairman of the Joining us now is chairman of the

:23:43. > :23:44.Commons Foreign Affairs Committee, Richard Ottaway.

:23:44. > :23:45.Richard Ottaway. Richard Ottaway.

:23:45. > :23:46.Did you agree with what William Did you agree with what William

:23:46. > :23:48.Did you agree with what William Did you agree with what William

:23:48. > :23:49.Hague announced, is it a good idea? Hague announced, is it a good idea?

:23:49. > :23:50.Hague announced, is it a good idea? Hague announced, is it a good idea?

:23:50. > :23:51.Yes, I think if we are going to Yes, I think if we are going to

:23:51. > :23:53.Yes, I think if we are going to play a role on the international

:23:53. > :23:54.play a role on the international play a role on the international

:23:54. > :23:55.stage, we have to take stage, we have to take

:23:55. > :23:57.stage, we have to take responsibility see Risley. He is

:23:57. > :23:59.responsibility see Risley. He is responsibility see Risley. He is

:23:59. > :24:00.concerned about the way the concerned about the way the

:24:00. > :24:01.concerned about the way the situation is deteriorating and I

:24:01. > :24:01.situation is deteriorating and I situation is deteriorating and I

:24:01. > :24:04.situation is deteriorating and I think this was the right step to

:24:04. > :24:06.think this was the right step to think this was the right step to

:24:06. > :24:07.think this was the right step to take. Is it going to save lives? If

:24:07. > :24:08.take. Is it going to save lives? If take. Is it going to save lives? If

:24:08. > :24:09.you're going to provide armoured you're going to provide armoured

:24:09. > :24:11.you're going to provide armoured vehicles and body armour to Syrian

:24:11. > :24:12.vehicles and body armour to Syrian vehicles and body armour to Syrian

:24:12. > :24:14.vehicles and body armour to Syrian rebels, why don't you on them with

:24:14. > :24:15.rebels, why don't you on them with rebels, why don't you on them with

:24:15. > :24:16.guns and ammunition? We think it guns and ammunition? We think it

:24:16. > :24:18.guns and ammunition? We think it guns and ammunition? We think it

:24:18. > :24:19.will save lives, that is why we are will save lives, that is why we are

:24:19. > :24:22.will save lives, that is why we are supplying the equipment. But there

:24:22. > :24:24.supplying the equipment. But there supplying the equipment. But there

:24:24. > :24:26.is a distinction between providing is a distinction between providing

:24:26. > :24:28.is a distinction between providing a protective weapon and giving guns

:24:28. > :24:28.a protective weapon and giving guns a protective weapon and giving guns

:24:28. > :24:29.a protective weapon and giving guns and ammunition as two rebels he we

:24:29. > :24:31.and ammunition as two rebels he we and ammunition as two rebels he we

:24:31. > :24:32.and ammunition as two rebels he we do not know, and whose identity is

:24:32. > :24:34.do not know, and whose identity is do not know, and whose identity is

:24:34. > :24:35.uncertain and their intentions on uncertain and their intentions on

:24:35. > :24:37.uncertain and their intentions on clear. But why then even drift

:24:37. > :24:39.clear. But why then even drift towards giving armoured vehicles

:24:39. > :24:43.towards giving armoured vehicles towards giving armoured vehicles

:24:43. > :24:43.and body armour? People are dying and body armour? People are dying

:24:43. > :24:46.and body armour? People are dying over there. There is a humanitarian

:24:46. > :24:46.over there. There is a humanitarian over there. There is a humanitarian

:24:46. > :24:49.disaster taking place, thousands of disaster taking place, thousands of

:24:49. > :24:50.disaster taking place, thousands of refugees on the move, people been

:24:50. > :24:51.refugees on the move, people been refugees on the move, people been

:24:51. > :24:53.killed daily. We cannot sit back killed daily. We cannot sit back

:24:53. > :24:53.killed daily. We cannot sit back and do nothing. It is slightly

:24:53. > :24:54.and do nothing. It is slightly and do nothing. It is slightly

:24:55. > :24:56.and do nothing. It is slightly academic as to whether we should be

:24:56. > :24:57.academic as to whether we should be academic as to whether we should be

:24:57. > :24:57.arming the rebels, because other arming the rebels, because other

:24:58. > :25:00.arming the rebels, because other arming the rebels, because other

:25:00. > :25:01.people on in them at the moment. people on in them at the moment.

:25:01. > :25:02.people on in them at the moment. Weapons are going in there will

:25:02. > :25:04.Weapons are going in there will Weapons are going in there will

:25:04. > :25:06.Weapons are going in there will stop if we are to take our

:25:06. > :25:08.international responsibilities international responsibilities

:25:08. > :25:09.international responsibilities seriously, we have to do something.

:25:09. > :25:10.seriously, we have to do something. seriously, we have to do something.

:25:10. > :25:12.Alan Johnson, do you agree that Alan Johnson, do you agree that

:25:12. > :25:13.Alan Johnson, do you agree that Alan Johnson, do you agree that

:25:13. > :25:14.something had to be done? Yes, I something had to be done? Yes, I

:25:14. > :25:17.something had to be done? Yes, I agree with that. Everyone wants

:25:17. > :25:19.agree with that. Everyone wants agree with that. Everyone wants

:25:19. > :25:20.agree with that. Everyone wants this to be settled by talking.

:25:20. > :25:22.this to be settled by talking. this to be settled by talking.

:25:22. > :25:25.this to be settled by talking. is not going to happen? There was

:25:25. > :25:27.is not going to happen? There was an important development, the

:25:27. > :25:31.an important development, the organisation we recognise, dropped

:25:31. > :25:32.organisation we recognise, dropped organisation we recognise, dropped

:25:32. > :25:33.their criteria that President Assad their criteria that President Assad

:25:33. > :25:36.their criteria that President Assad their criteria that President Assad

:25:36. > :25:37.had to leave before they would talk had to leave before they would talk

:25:37. > :25:38.had to leave before they would talk had to leave before they would talk

:25:38. > :25:39.about solving the issue. It is only about solving the issue. It is only

:25:40. > :25:40.about solving the issue. It is only about solving the issue. It is only

:25:40. > :25:41.a small thing, but it is a a small thing, but it is a

:25:41. > :25:42.a small thing, but it is a development. Most of the questions

:25:42. > :25:43.development. Most of the questions development. Most of the questions

:25:43. > :25:45.to William Hague yesterday, how do to William Hague yesterday, how do

:25:45. > :25:46.to William Hague yesterday, how do to William Hague yesterday, how do

:25:46. > :25:48.we manage to build on that? How do we manage to build on that? How do

:25:48. > :25:49.we manage to build on that? How do you avoid drifting towards military

:25:50. > :25:50.you avoid drifting towards military you avoid drifting towards military

:25:50. > :25:52.intervention? A ceasefire does not intervention? A ceasefire does not

:25:52. > :25:54.intervention? A ceasefire does not intervention? A ceasefire does not

:25:54. > :25:55.seem to be a realistic option at seem to be a realistic option at

:25:55. > :25:58.the moment, despite that the moment, despite that

:25:58. > :25:59.the moment, despite that development. Is there a fear that

:25:59. > :26:00.development. Is there a fear that development. Is there a fear that

:26:00. > :26:02.there could be a drift towards there could be a drift towards

:26:02. > :26:04.military intervention eventually? military intervention eventually?

:26:04. > :26:06.military intervention eventually? There is a real fear here.

:26:06. > :26:07.There is a real fear here. There is a real fear here.

:26:07. > :26:08.President Assad will eventually go, President Assad will eventually go,

:26:08. > :26:09.President Assad will eventually go, President Assad will eventually go,

:26:10. > :26:11.whether he will run out of money or whether he will run out of money or

:26:11. > :26:14.whether he will run out of money or is toppled another way. What goes

:26:14. > :26:16.is toppled another way. What goes is toppled another way. What goes

:26:16. > :26:17.into the vacuum, what is left into the vacuum, what is left

:26:17. > :26:20.into the vacuum, what is left into the vacuum, what is left

:26:20. > :26:21.behind him, is open to question. It behind him, is open to question. It

:26:21. > :26:22.behind him, is open to question. It behind him, is open to question. It

:26:22. > :26:24.could develop into a civil war, if could develop into a civil war, if

:26:24. > :26:25.could develop into a civil war, if could develop into a civil war, if

:26:25. > :26:26.we are not careful. You will have we are not careful. You will have

:26:26. > :26:27.we are not careful. You will have the various factions been on by

:26:27. > :26:30.the various factions been on by different countries around the

:26:30. > :26:31.different countries around the different countries around the

:26:31. > :26:32.world. Britain gets dragged in, but world. Britain gets dragged in, but

:26:32. > :26:33.world. Britain gets dragged in, but world. Britain gets dragged in, but

:26:33. > :26:34.in a sense it would be better to in a sense it would be better to

:26:35. > :26:36.in a sense it would be better to keep out altogether? We cannot keep

:26:37. > :26:37.keep out altogether? We cannot keep keep out altogether? We cannot keep

:26:37. > :26:38.keep out altogether? We cannot keep out altogether. We are part of the

:26:38. > :26:42.out altogether. We are part of the out altogether. We are part of the

:26:42. > :26:44.out altogether. We are part of the arms embargo by the youth will stop

:26:44. > :26:46.arms embargo by the youth will stop arms embargo by the youth will stop

:26:46. > :26:47.-- EU. Russia and China are -- EU. Russia and China are

:26:47. > :26:49.-- EU. Russia and China are stopping any progress through the

:26:49. > :26:50.stopping any progress through the stopping any progress through the

:26:50. > :26:52.UN Security Council. But what UN Security Council. But what

:26:52. > :26:55.William Hague announced yesterday, William Hague announced yesterday,

:26:55. > :26:56.William Hague announced yesterday, with a sense of frustration,

:26:56. > :26:57.with a sense of frustration, with a sense of frustration,

:26:57. > :26:58.actually we have to do something. actually we have to do something.

:26:58. > :26:59.actually we have to do something. actually we have to do something.

:27:00. > :27:00.We cannot just turn up back and We cannot just turn up back and

:27:00. > :27:03.We cannot just turn up back and walk away. What about the

:27:03. > :27:04.walk away. What about the walk away. What about the

:27:04. > :27:05.Americans? John Kerry was over last Americans? John Kerry was over last

:27:05. > :27:09.Americans? John Kerry was over last week talking to William Hague about

:27:09. > :27:10.week talking to William Hague about week talking to William Hague about

:27:10. > :27:11.this. Barack Obama's priorities on this. Barack Obama's priorities on

:27:11. > :27:12.this. Barack Obama's priorities on domestic and is reluctant to get

:27:12. > :27:15.domestic and is reluctant to get domestic and is reluctant to get

:27:15. > :27:15.domestic and is reluctant to get involved in any more wars. Do you

:27:15. > :27:16.involved in any more wars. Do you involved in any more wars. Do you

:27:16. > :27:18.think you should get involved? think you should get involved?

:27:18. > :27:19.think you should get involved? think you should get involved?

:27:19. > :27:20.is not for me to comment on, that is not for me to comment on, that

:27:21. > :27:22.is not for me to comment on, that is his political priorities. They

:27:22. > :27:23.is his political priorities. They is his political priorities. They

:27:23. > :27:25.is his political priorities. They have not walked away, but there is

:27:25. > :27:27.have not walked away, but there is have not walked away, but there is

:27:27. > :27:28.have not walked away, but there is a pivot going on away towards --

:27:28. > :27:29.a pivot going on away towards -- a pivot going on away towards --

:27:29. > :27:32.a pivot going on away towards -- away from the Middle East. But I

:27:32. > :27:34.away from the Middle East. But I away from the Middle East. But I

:27:34. > :27:36.suspect a lot of intelligence suspect a lot of intelligence

:27:36. > :27:37.information and equipment, so information and equipment, so

:27:37. > :27:39.information and equipment, so they're not divorced from the whole

:27:39. > :27:45.thing. thing.

:27:45. > :27:50.thing. thing.

:27:50. > :27:51.Two MPs in the House hands St the Two MPs in the House hands St the

:27:51. > :27:56.Two MPs in the House hands St the Two MPs in the House hands St the

:27:56. > :28:05.Hugo Chavez, who do you think they Hugo Chavez, who do you think they

:28:05. > :28:06.are? Hello President take. are? Hello President take.

:28:06. > :28:07.are? Hello President take. We're going to concentrate on

:28:07. > :28:08.We're going to concentrate on We're going to concentrate on

:28:08. > :28:09.matters economic for the next 20 matters economic for the next 20

:28:09. > :28:10.matters economic for the next 20 matters economic for the next 20

:28:10. > :28:11.minutes or so. So it's just as well minutes or so. So it's just as well

:28:11. > :28:12.minutes or so. So it's just as well we've got an honorary professor of

:28:12. > :28:13.we've got an honorary professor of we've got an honorary professor of

:28:13. > :28:14.economics with us. What is the economics with us. What is the

:28:14. > :28:14.economics with us. What is the economics with us. What is the

:28:14. > :28:19.first thing you will do when you first thing you will do when you

:28:19. > :28:20.first thing you will do when you start the job on Monday morning?

:28:20. > :28:21.start the job on Monday morning? start the job on Monday morning?

:28:21. > :28:23.start the job on Monday morning? Pick up a book on economics for

:28:23. > :28:24.Pick up a book on economics for Pick up a book on economics for

:28:24. > :28:26.Pick up a book on economics for begin its -- beginners. I had just

:28:26. > :28:28.begin its -- beginners. I had just begin its -- beginners. I had just

:28:28. > :28:29.begin its -- beginners. I had just been given a would cloud of all the

:28:29. > :28:32.been given a would cloud of all the been given a would cloud of all the

:28:32. > :28:33.words you use, people is the words you use, people is the

:28:33. > :28:36.words you use, people is the biggest, people, were, means and

:28:36. > :28:37.history. history.

:28:37. > :28:38.history. Earlier today, David Cameron had

:28:38. > :28:39.Earlier today, David Cameron had Earlier today, David Cameron had

:28:39. > :28:43.Earlier today, David Cameron had this to say about the state of the

:28:43. > :28:44.economy. economy.

:28:44. > :28:45.economy. economy.

:28:45. > :28:47.economy. If we stick to the plan and if we

:28:47. > :28:47.If we stick to the plan and if we If we stick to the plan and if we

:28:47. > :28:50.reject the false choices, we can reject the false choices, we can

:28:50. > :28:52.reject the false choices, we can come through this together with a

:28:52. > :28:53.come through this together with a come through this together with a

:28:53. > :28:55.stronger, more resilient and more stronger, more resilient and more

:28:55. > :28:57.stronger, more resilient and more balanced economy. But first, we

:28:57. > :28:58.balanced economy. But first, we balanced economy. But first, we

:28:58. > :29:00.balanced economy. But first, we want to start with what went wrong.

:29:00. > :29:01.want to start with what went wrong. want to start with what went wrong.

:29:01. > :29:02.If the don't understand what went If the don't understand what went

:29:02. > :29:03.If the don't understand what went If the don't understand what went

:29:03. > :29:04.wrong in our economy, we will never wrong in our economy, we will never

:29:04. > :29:13.wrong in our economy, we will never understand what is truly needed to

:29:13. > :29:14.understand what is truly needed to put him right.

:29:14. > :29:15.put him right. put him right.

:29:15. > :29:16.David Cameron a little earlier. David Cameron a little earlier.

:29:16. > :29:17.David Cameron a little earlier. Well the Business Secretary, Vince

:29:17. > :29:17.Well the Business Secretary, Vince Well the Business Secretary, Vince

:29:17. > :29:20.Cable, has also been pontificating Cable, has also been pontificating

:29:20. > :29:21.Cable, has also been pontificating Cable, has also been pontificating

:29:21. > :29:22.about the economy. But he had a about the economy. But he had a

:29:22. > :29:32.slightly different message. Writing slightly different message. Writing

:29:32. > :29:49.

:29:49. > :29:54.slightly different message. Writing had to say. We are joined now by the

:29:54. > :29:55.had to say. We are joined now by the business minister, Michael Fallon.

:29:55. > :29:59.business minister, Michael Fallon. business minister, Michael Fallon.

:29:59. > :29:59.And the Liberal Democrat peer, And the Liberal Democrat peer,

:29:59. > :30:03.And the Liberal Democrat peer, Michael Oakeshott. Should we borrow

:30:03. > :30:04.Michael Oakeshott. Should we borrow more for investment?

:30:04. > :30:06.more for investment? more for investment?

:30:06. > :30:06.Well, we are borrowing at the Well, we are borrowing at the

:30:06. > :30:08.Well, we are borrowing at the Well, we are borrowing at the

:30:08. > :30:10.moment, but we have to keep things moment, but we have to keep things

:30:10. > :30:11.moment, but we have to keep things moment, but we have to keep things

:30:11. > :30:11.under control. That is why we are under control. That is why we are

:30:11. > :30:16.under control. That is why we are putting money aside for guarantees

:30:16. > :30:20.putting money aside for guarantees for infrastructure investment. We

:30:20. > :30:20.for infrastructure investment. We for infrastructure investment. We

:30:20. > :30:21.for infrastructure investment. We are doing that already. But we can't

:30:21. > :30:24.are doing that already. But we can't are doing that already. But we can't

:30:24. > :30:27.are doing that already. But we can't afford to deviate from our plan to

:30:27. > :30:28.afford to deviate from our plan to afford to deviate from our plan to

:30:28. > :30:29.get the fiscal consolidation working get the fiscal consolidation working

:30:29. > :30:31.get the fiscal consolidation working get the fiscal consolidation working

:30:31. > :30:32.and delivered by the end of this and delivered by the end of this

:30:32. > :30:34.and delivered by the end of this Parliament. But the figures for

:30:34. > :30:34.Parliament. But the figures for Parliament. But the figures for

:30:34. > :30:38.public investment in the red Hook public investment in the red Hook

:30:39. > :30:40.show a consistent decline, show a consistent decline,

:30:40. > :30:40.show a consistent decline, year-on-year from 2010 will stop so

:30:40. > :30:41.year-on-year from 2010 will stop so year-on-year from 2010 will stop so

:30:41. > :30:46.year-on-year from 2010 will stop so every year, you are spending less on

:30:46. > :30:46.every year, you are spending less on every year, you are spending less on

:30:46. > :30:47.public investment. On average, we public investment. On average, we

:30:47. > :30:49.public investment. On average, we are spending more than the last

:30:49. > :30:50.are spending more than the last are spending more than the last

:30:50. > :30:52.Labour government ever did. With the Labour government ever did. With the

:30:52. > :30:53.Labour government ever did. With the building of the Olympic Stadium and

:30:53. > :30:57.building of the Olympic Stadium and building of the Olympic Stadium and

:30:57. > :30:58.the pick of the hospital building the pick of the hospital building

:30:58. > :30:58.the pick of the hospital building programme, on average, we will spend

:30:58. > :31:00.programme, on average, we will spend programme, on average, we will spend

:31:00. > :31:01.programme, on average, we will spend more per year on capital. How much

:31:01. > :31:04.more per year on capital. How much more per year on capital. How much

:31:04. > :31:06.are you spending this financial year are you spending this financial year

:31:06. > :31:08.are you spending this financial year on public investment has Mac �40

:31:08. > :31:12.on public investment has Mac �40 on public investment has Mac �40

:31:12. > :31:13.on public investment has Mac �40 billion. No, it is 28. No, there is

:31:13. > :31:15.billion. No, it is 28. No, there is billion. No, it is 28. No, there is

:31:15. > :31:16.neither to investment coming in as neither to investment coming in as

:31:16. > :31:23.neither to investment coming in as well. I am talking about public

:31:23. > :31:26.well. I am talking about public investment. The government provides

:31:26. > :31:26.investment. The government provides investment. The government provides

:31:26. > :31:30.a guarantee, and private investment a guarantee, and private investment

:31:30. > :31:33.a guarantee, and private investment comes in behind it. Is public

:31:33. > :31:34.comes in behind it. Is public comes in behind it. Is public

:31:34. > :31:37.investment rising or falling? investment rising or falling?

:31:37. > :31:37.investment rising or falling? give you Vince's words. We inherited

:31:37. > :31:39.give you Vince's words. We inherited give you Vince's words. We inherited

:31:39. > :31:41.a cyclical downturn caused by the a cyclical downturn caused by the

:31:41. > :31:43.collapse of private housebuilding collapse of private housebuilding

:31:43. > :31:44.and commercial property development, and commercial property development,

:31:44. > :31:45.and commercial property development, and we have not started rebuilding

:31:45. > :31:46.and we have not started rebuilding and we have not started rebuilding

:31:46. > :31:48.that. Nick Clegg also said he that. Nick Clegg also said he

:31:48. > :31:50.that. Nick Clegg also said he that. Nick Clegg also said he

:31:50. > :31:51.regretted that we let it drop so regretted that we let it drop so

:31:51. > :31:52.regretted that we let it drop so regretted that we let it drop so

:31:52. > :31:53.far. What Michael is laying makes a far. What Michael is laying makes a

:31:53. > :31:53.far. What Michael is laying makes a far. What Michael is laying makes a

:31:53. > :31:54.lot of sense. He is talking about lot of sense. He is talking about

:31:54. > :31:56.lot of sense. He is talking about the guarantees that are helping the

:31:56. > :31:57.the guarantees that are helping the the guarantees that are helping the

:31:57. > :31:57.the guarantees that are helping the private sector come in. But it is

:31:57. > :32:00.private sector come in. But it is private sector come in. But it is

:32:00. > :32:01.private sector come in. But it is not a big enough scale. Five billion

:32:01. > :32:01.not a big enough scale. Five billion not a big enough scale. Five billion

:32:01. > :32:03.was committed for longer and was committed for longer and

:32:03. > :32:06.infrastructure projects which are infrastructure projects which are

:32:06. > :32:07.infrastructure projects which are very slow and capital intensive.

:32:07. > :32:07.very slow and capital intensive. very slow and capital intensive.

:32:07. > :32:08.Most and Liberal Democrats are Most and Liberal Democrats are

:32:08. > :32:10.Most and Liberal Democrats are Most and Liberal Democrats are

:32:10. > :32:12.saying we must do that in a much saying we must do that in a much

:32:12. > :32:13.bigger way, focusing on bigger way, focusing on

:32:13. > :32:16.bigger way, focusing on housebuilding. Last week, I was at

:32:16. > :32:17.housebuilding. Last week, I was at housebuilding. Last week, I was at

:32:17. > :32:18.Prudential. They all want to put Prudential. They all want to put

:32:18. > :32:19.Prudential. They all want to put Prudential. They all want to put

:32:19. > :32:20.vast amounts of money in, but the vast amounts of money in, but the

:32:20. > :32:22.vast amounts of money in, but the Treasury has to be more imaginative

:32:22. > :32:25.Treasury has to be more imaginative Treasury has to be more imaginative

:32:25. > :32:25.Treasury has to be more imaginative will stop they have to take away the

:32:25. > :32:31.will stop they have to take away the restrictions on Council Association

:32:31. > :32:32.restrictions on Council Association restrictions on Council Association

:32:32. > :32:33.borrowing. It is exactly what you borrowing. It is exactly what you

:32:33. > :32:35.borrowing. It is exactly what you have been talking about, Michael,

:32:35. > :32:36.have been talking about, Michael, have been talking about, Michael,

:32:36. > :32:37.have been talking about, Michael, instead of five alien, which takes a

:32:37. > :32:39.instead of five alien, which takes a instead of five alien, which takes a

:32:39. > :32:41.instead of five alien, which takes a long time to come through, let's say

:32:41. > :32:42.long time to come through, let's say long time to come through, let's say

:32:42. > :32:43.100,000 more houses a year. That 100,000 more houses a year. That

:32:43. > :32:44.100,000 more houses a year. That would create half a million more

:32:44. > :32:45.would create half a million more would create half a million more

:32:45. > :32:46.would create half a million more jobs. We are all signed up to this.

:32:46. > :32:47.jobs. We are all signed up to this. jobs. We are all signed up to this.

:32:47. > :32:50.The coalition agreement said we The coalition agreement said we

:32:50. > :32:50.The coalition agreement said we The coalition agreement said we

:32:50. > :32:51.would get the deficit down and get would get the deficit down and get

:32:51. > :32:53.would get the deficit down and get the economy growing, and we have

:32:53. > :32:54.the economy growing, and we have the economy growing, and we have

:32:54. > :32:54.the economy growing, and we have made a good start. But over the last

:32:54. > :32:58.made a good start. But over the last made a good start. But over the last

:32:58. > :32:59.made a good start. But over the last few months, it has gone wrong. The

:32:59. > :33:00.few months, it has gone wrong. The few months, it has gone wrong. The

:33:00. > :33:01.few months, it has gone wrong. The deficit is going up again. It is not

:33:01. > :33:02.deficit is going up again. It is not deficit is going up again. It is not

:33:02. > :33:03.deficit is going up again. It is not working. If I am given money to

:33:03. > :33:04.working. If I am given money to working. If I am given money to

:33:04. > :33:07.invest, we agreed the period over invest, we agreed the period over

:33:07. > :33:07.invest, we agreed the period over invest, we agreed the period over

:33:07. > :33:09.which we will measure it. We have which we will measure it. We have

:33:09. > :33:10.which we will measure it. We have which we will measure it. We have

:33:10. > :33:11.made a start. The balance of risks made a start. The balance of risks

:33:11. > :33:13.made a start. The balance of risks made a start. The balance of risks

:33:13. > :33:14.in the market has now changed. We in the market has now changed. We

:33:14. > :33:16.in the market has now changed. We have had a downgrade because the

:33:16. > :33:16.have had a downgrade because the markets don't believe austerities

:33:16. > :33:17.markets don't believe austerities markets don't believe austerities

:33:17. > :33:22.markets don't believe austerities working and they want to see more

:33:22. > :33:23.working and they want to see more working and they want to see more

:33:23. > :33:23.imaginative things. When you say it imaginative things. When you say it

:33:23. > :33:29.imaginative things. When you say it imaginative, you mean to borrow

:33:29. > :33:34.imaginative, you mean to borrow imaginative, you mean to borrow

:33:34. > :33:35.loads more. Like the Labour Party. loads more. Like the Labour Party.

:33:35. > :33:35.loads more. Like the Labour Party. What the markets and the rating

:33:35. > :33:37.What the markets and the rating What the markets and the rating

:33:37. > :33:38.agencies said was that there would agencies said was that there would

:33:38. > :33:38.agencies said was that there would agencies said was that there would

:33:38. > :33:40.be a further downgrade if they saw be a further downgrade if they saw

:33:40. > :33:42.any weakening of political any weakening of political

:33:42. > :33:44.any weakening of political commitment to our overall target of

:33:44. > :33:45.commitment to our overall target of commitment to our overall target of

:33:45. > :33:46.the school consolidation. Whether it the school consolidation. Whether it

:33:46. > :33:47.the school consolidation. Whether it is Ed Miliband or a conservative

:33:47. > :33:50.is Ed Miliband or a conservative is Ed Miliband or a conservative

:33:50. > :33:53.adventure or a LibDem Cabinet adventure or a LibDem Cabinet

:33:53. > :33:54.adventure or a LibDem Cabinet adventure or a LibDem Cabinet

:33:54. > :33:54.minister, it is dangerous to say we minister, it is dangerous to say we

:33:54. > :33:56.minister, it is dangerous to say we minister, it is dangerous to say we

:33:56. > :33:57.minister, it is dangerous to say we are going to go off our plan. We are

:33:57. > :33:59.are going to go off our plan. We are are going to go off our plan. We are

:33:59. > :34:00.are going to go off our plan. We are not going to go off plan. The prime

:34:00. > :34:01.not going to go off plan. The prime not going to go off plan. The prime

:34:01. > :34:02.ministers said we are sticking to ministers said we are sticking to

:34:02. > :34:06.ministers said we are sticking to ministers said we are sticking to

:34:06. > :34:07.the plan, and that applies to the the plan, and that applies to the

:34:07. > :34:09.the plan, and that applies to the whole Cabinet. You should not be

:34:09. > :34:10.whole Cabinet. You should not be whole Cabinet. You should not be

:34:10. > :34:13.criticising your boss. There is only criticising your boss. There is only

:34:13. > :34:17.criticising your boss. There is only one boss here, the Prime Minister.

:34:17. > :34:18.one boss here, the Prime Minister. one boss here, the Prime Minister.

:34:18. > :34:19.one boss here, the Prime Minister. There is a coalition. There is only

:34:19. > :34:21.There is a coalition. There is only There is a coalition. There is only

:34:21. > :34:22.one economic boss. There is one one economic boss. There is one

:34:22. > :34:23.one economic boss. There is one chancellor, and there is one plant.

:34:23. > :34:24.chancellor, and there is one plant. chancellor, and there is one plant.

:34:25. > :34:25.chancellor, and there is one plant. That is where you are wrong. Am I

:34:25. > :34:27.That is where you are wrong. Am I That is where you are wrong. Am I

:34:27. > :34:29.allowed to say something? Let's look allowed to say something? Let's look

:34:29. > :34:30.allowed to say something? Let's look allowed to say something? Let's look

:34:30. > :34:30.at the banks, which is the key thing at the banks, which is the key thing

:34:30. > :34:33.at the banks, which is the key thing where you are doing very well,

:34:33. > :34:34.where you are doing very well, where you are doing very well,

:34:34. > :34:38.Michael, but there is a joint Michael, but there is a joint

:34:38. > :34:38.responsibility between the responsibility between the

:34:38. > :34:43.responsibility between the Treasury, George Osborne and Vince

:34:43. > :34:44.Treasury, George Osborne and Vince Treasury, George Osborne and Vince

:34:44. > :34:45.Treasury, George Osborne and Vince Cable. The governor is right that it

:34:45. > :34:46.Cable. The governor is right that it Cable. The governor is right that it

:34:46. > :34:47.Cable. The governor is right that it is a nonsense to carry on pretending

:34:47. > :34:48.is a nonsense to carry on pretending is a nonsense to carry on pretending

:34:48. > :34:49.is a nonsense to carry on pretending that RBS is at arm's-length. It is

:34:49. > :34:50.that RBS is at arm's-length. It is that RBS is at arm's-length. It is

:34:50. > :34:50.that RBS is at arm's-length. It is not true to say that only George

:34:50. > :34:53.not true to say that only George not true to say that only George

:34:53. > :34:54.Osborne is in charge of economic Osborne is in charge of economic

:34:54. > :34:56.Osborne is in charge of economic Osborne is in charge of economic

:34:56. > :34:56.Lizzie. It is a balance and a Lizzie. It is a balance and a

:34:56. > :34:57.Lizzie. It is a balance and a coalition. Michael Fallon, when you

:34:57. > :34:59.coalition. Michael Fallon, when you coalition. Michael Fallon, when you

:34:59. > :35:00.coalition. Michael Fallon, when you say we are sticking to the plan, can

:35:00. > :35:01.say we are sticking to the plan, can say we are sticking to the plan, can

:35:01. > :35:02.say we are sticking to the plan, can say we are sticking to the plan, can

:35:02. > :35:04.I just point out to you that as of I just point out to you that as of

:35:04. > :35:07.I just point out to you that as of the autumn statement, you will now

:35:07. > :35:08.the autumn statement, you will now the autumn statement, you will now

:35:08. > :35:10.the autumn statement, you will now or 210 �11 more than you planned to

:35:10. > :35:11.or 210 �11 more than you planned to or 210 �11 more than you planned to

:35:11. > :35:13.or 210 �11 more than you planned to borrow in 2010 will stop so you are

:35:13. > :35:14.borrow in 2010 will stop so you are borrow in 2010 will stop so you are

:35:14. > :35:15.borrow in 2010 will stop so you are already off the plan? You know we

:35:15. > :35:17.already off the plan? You know we already off the plan? You know we

:35:17. > :35:18.have had high inflation and high have had high inflation and high

:35:18. > :35:21.have had high inflation and high commodity prices. You know about the

:35:21. > :35:22.commodity prices. You know about the commodity prices. You know about the

:35:22. > :35:23.problems in the Eurozone. So the problems in the Eurozone. So the

:35:23. > :35:23.problems in the Eurozone. So the problems in the Eurozone. So the

:35:23. > :35:24.answer to that can't be to borrow answer to that can't be to borrow

:35:24. > :35:27.answer to that can't be to borrow answer to that can't be to borrow

:35:27. > :35:28.even more. We have to stick to the even more. We have to stick to the

:35:28. > :35:29.even more. We have to stick to the even more. We have to stick to the

:35:29. > :35:30.plan and ensure that we are meeting plan and ensure that we are meeting

:35:30. > :35:32.plan and ensure that we are meeting our overall target of getting taxes

:35:32. > :35:33.our overall target of getting taxes our overall target of getting taxes

:35:33. > :35:35.and spending into line. You can't and spending into line. You can't

:35:35. > :35:36.and spending into line. You can't have two macro policies about this.

:35:36. > :35:37.have two macro policies about this. have two macro policies about this.

:35:37. > :35:38.have two macro policies about this. There is only one policy, and we are

:35:38. > :35:39.There is only one policy, and we are There is only one policy, and we are

:35:39. > :35:40.There is only one policy, and we are all committed to it. At when the

:35:40. > :35:41.all committed to it. At when the all committed to it. At when the

:35:41. > :35:42.all committed to it. At when the policy is not working, you then move

:35:42. > :35:44.policy is not working, you then move policy is not working, you then move

:35:44. > :35:45.policy is not working, you then move it on and make it bolder. You

:35:45. > :35:47.it on and make it bolder. You it on and make it bolder. You

:35:47. > :35:48.it on and make it bolder. You yourself have said we are doing five

:35:48. > :35:49.yourself have said we are doing five billion of infrastructure

:35:49. > :35:50.billion of infrastructure billion of infrastructure

:35:50. > :35:52.guarantees. Let's do more on guarantees. Let's do more on

:35:52. > :35:52.guarantees. Let's do more on guarantees. Let's do more on

:35:52. > :35:54.housing, which is where the jobs are housing, which is where the jobs are

:35:54. > :35:54.housing, which is where the jobs are to stop otherwise, the economy is

:35:54. > :35:56.to stop otherwise, the economy is to stop otherwise, the economy is

:35:56. > :35:58.to stop otherwise, the economy is flat and the deficit is going up.

:35:58. > :35:59.flat and the deficit is going up. flat and the deficit is going up.

:35:59. > :36:02.flat and the deficit is going up. The economy is not flat. The GDP

:36:02. > :36:02.The economy is not flat. The GDP The economy is not flat. The GDP

:36:02. > :36:03.figures are flat. Look at the figures are flat. Look at the

:36:03. > :36:04.figures are flat. Look at the facts. The prime minister made clear

:36:04. > :36:05.facts. The prime minister made clear facts. The prime minister made clear

:36:05. > :36:07.this morning that the plan is this morning that the plan is

:36:07. > :36:08.this morning that the plan is this morning that the plan is

:36:08. > :36:11.beginning to work. We have seen 1 beginning to work. We have seen 1

:36:11. > :36:16.beginning to work. We have seen 1 million more private sector jobs

:36:16. > :36:18.million more private sector jobs million more private sector jobs

:36:18. > :36:20.million more private sector jobs created. Whose side are you on? I am

:36:20. > :36:21.created. Whose side are you on? I am created. Whose side are you on? I am

:36:21. > :36:22.on the side of the Liberal on the side of the Liberal

:36:22. > :36:23.on the side of the Liberal Democrats. Stop smearing us and lets

:36:23. > :36:24.Democrats. Stop smearing us and lets Democrats. Stop smearing us and lets

:36:24. > :36:26.Democrats. Stop smearing us and lets look at the facts. We have seen a

:36:26. > :36:26.look at the facts. We have seen a look at the facts. We have seen a

:36:26. > :36:27.big increase in private sector big increase in private sector

:36:27. > :36:30.big increase in private sector jobs. We have seen more confidence

:36:30. > :36:32.jobs. We have seen more confidence jobs. We have seen more confidence

:36:32. > :36:33.in Britain as a destination for in Britain as a destination for

:36:33. > :36:33.in Britain as a destination for investment. We have seen exports

:36:33. > :36:36.investment. We have seen exports investment. We have seen exports

:36:36. > :36:39.increased some of emerging markets. increased some of emerging markets.

:36:39. > :36:44.increased some of emerging markets. Michael, let me say something. Just

:36:44. > :36:44.Michael, let me say something. Just Michael, let me say something. Just

:36:44. > :36:50.Michael, let me say something. Just a minute. We are trading with places

:36:50. > :36:51.a minute. We are trading with places a minute. We are trading with places

:36:51. > :36:52.like China, Brazil, India. The proud like China, Brazil, India. The proud

:36:52. > :36:54.like China, Brazil, India. The proud and thereby minister says about our

:36:54. > :36:55.and thereby minister says about our and thereby minister says about our

:36:55. > :36:56.exports, do you know that our exports, do you know that our

:36:56. > :36:57.exports, do you know that our exports to all those countries don't

:36:57. > :36:58.exports to all those countries don't exports to all those countries don't

:36:58. > :36:59.exports to all those countries don't even add up to as much as re-export

:36:59. > :36:59.even add up to as much as re-export even add up to as much as re-export

:36:59. > :37:03.even add up to as much as re-export to Ireland? You are starting from a

:37:03. > :37:04.to Ireland? You are starting from a to Ireland? You are starting from a

:37:04. > :37:05.to Ireland? You are starting from a very small base. I did not want to

:37:05. > :37:06.very small base. I did not want to very small base. I did not want to

:37:06. > :37:07.very small base. I did not want to bring Alan Johnson in because he is

:37:07. > :37:08.bring Alan Johnson in because he is bring Alan Johnson in because he is

:37:08. > :37:14.bring Alan Johnson in because he is a polite chap and does not like to

:37:14. > :37:16.a polite chap and does not like to a polite chap and does not like to

:37:16. > :37:17.a polite chap and does not like to intrude. But can I just say that

:37:17. > :37:20.intrude. But can I just say that intrude. But can I just say that

:37:20. > :37:22.when you listen to Matthew Oakeshott when you listen to Matthew Oakeshott

:37:22. > :37:22.when you listen to Matthew Oakeshott when you listen to Matthew Oakeshott

:37:22. > :37:23.and you read Vince Cable's essay in and you read Vince Cable's essay in

:37:23. > :37:25.and you read Vince Cable's essay in the new statesman today, it would

:37:25. > :37:26.the new statesman today, it would the new statesman today, it would

:37:26. > :37:27.the new statesman today, it would seem to me that both are closer to

:37:27. > :37:28.seem to me that both are closer to seem to me that both are closer to

:37:28. > :37:31.seem to me that both are closer to you and Mister balls than to Mister

:37:31. > :37:32.you and Mister balls than to Mister you and Mister balls than to Mister

:37:32. > :37:38.Fallon. As they were before the Fallon. As they were before the

:37:38. > :37:39.Fallon. As they were before the election in 2010. Vince carries into

:37:39. > :37:40.election in 2010. Vince carries into election in 2010. Vince carries into

:37:40. > :37:42.this government a bit of credibility this government a bit of credibility

:37:42. > :37:43.this government a bit of credibility on the economy that Osborne never

:37:43. > :37:44.on the economy that Osborne never on the economy that Osborne never

:37:44. > :37:47.had in opposition and certainly has had in opposition and certainly has

:37:47. > :37:48.had in opposition and certainly has had in opposition and certainly has

:37:48. > :37:52.not got now. There was an important not got now. There was an important

:37:52. > :37:53.not got now. There was an important report by Michael Heseltine, no

:37:53. > :37:56.report by Michael Heseltine, no stone unturned, about infrastructure

:37:56. > :37:57.stone unturned, about infrastructure stone unturned, about infrastructure

:37:57. > :38:00.and investment. Michael is making, and investment. Michael is making,

:38:00. > :38:01.and investment. Michael is making, in polite terms, the same argument.

:38:01. > :38:02.in polite terms, the same argument. in polite terms, the same argument.

:38:02. > :38:04.in polite terms, the same argument. There is no better time to invest in

:38:04. > :38:04.There is no better time to invest in There is no better time to invest in

:38:04. > :38:05.the infrastructure than now will the infrastructure than now will

:38:05. > :38:06.the infrastructure than now will the infrastructure than now will

:38:06. > :38:07.stop you have to do it at some stop you have to do it at some

:38:07. > :38:09.stop you have to do it at some stop you have to do it at some

:38:09. > :38:10.stage, and this is the best time. stage, and this is the best time.

:38:10. > :38:20.stage, and this is the best time. it looking good for the coalition

:38:20. > :38:20.

:38:20. > :38:21.it looking good for the coalition it looking good for the coalition

:38:21. > :38:29.talks posed 2015? Labour are too talks posed 2015? Labour are too

:38:29. > :38:30.talks posed 2015? Labour are too timid. You are all right, Alan.

:38:30. > :38:30.timid. You are all right, Alan. timid. You are all right, Alan.

:38:30. > :38:33.timid. You are all right, Alan. Anyway, we thank you both for a

:38:33. > :38:35.much. much.

:38:35. > :38:37.much. much.

:38:37. > :38:38.Now, today is a big birthday for Now, today is a big birthday for

:38:38. > :38:42.Now, today is a big birthday for interest rates. Giles can explain

:38:42. > :38:43.more. more.

:38:43. > :38:46.more. Four years ago today, interest rates

:38:46. > :38:46.Four years ago today, interest rates Four years ago today, interest rates

:38:46. > :38:49.Four years ago today, interest rates went down to 0.5% and there they

:38:49. > :38:50.went down to 0.5% and there they went down to 0.5% and there they

:38:50. > :38:51.have stayed ever since. Many happy have stayed ever since. Many happy

:38:51. > :38:54.have stayed ever since. Many happy returns from everyone at the Daily

:38:54. > :38:55.returns from everyone at the Daily returns from everyone at the Daily

:38:55. > :38:57.Politics. If you have been borrowing Politics. If you have been borrowing

:38:57. > :38:57.Politics. If you have been borrowing Politics. If you have been borrowing

:38:57. > :38:58.money, like the millions of us with money, like the millions of us with

:38:58. > :39:00.money, like the millions of us with mortgages, that has been very good

:39:00. > :39:01.mortgages, that has been very good mortgages, that has been very good

:39:01. > :39:02.mortgages, that has been very good news. But this will not be a

:39:02. > :39:03.news. But this will not be a news. But this will not be a

:39:03. > :39:05.birthday that is celebrated by birthday that is celebrated by

:39:05. > :39:06.birthday that is celebrated by birthday that is celebrated by

:39:06. > :39:07.savers. They have seen the value of savers. They have seen the value of

:39:07. > :39:08.savers. They have seen the value of their savings in road by inflation,

:39:08. > :39:09.their savings in road by inflation, their savings in road by inflation,

:39:09. > :39:11.fax to be pitiful interest rates fax to be pitiful interest rates

:39:11. > :39:12.fax to be pitiful interest rates offered by the banks. With the

:39:12. > :39:13.offered by the banks. With the offered by the banks. With the

:39:13. > :39:14.offered by the banks. With the economy in the doldrums, it does not

:39:14. > :39:14.economy in the doldrums, it does not economy in the doldrums, it does not

:39:14. > :39:15.economy in the doldrums, it does not look like they are going to go up

:39:15. > :39:18.look like they are going to go up look like they are going to go up

:39:18. > :39:19.any time soon, quite the opposite. any time soon, quite the opposite.

:39:19. > :39:22.any time soon, quite the opposite. any time soon, quite the opposite.

:39:22. > :39:24.Last week come as a deputy governor Last week come as a deputy governor

:39:24. > :39:24.Last week come as a deputy governor Last week come as a deputy governor

:39:24. > :39:25.of England told MPs the bank was of England told MPs the bank was

:39:25. > :39:26.considering negative interest rates, considering negative interest rates,

:39:26. > :39:28.considering negative interest rates, even though it was an extraordinary

:39:28. > :39:29.even though it was an extraordinary even though it was an extraordinary

:39:29. > :39:31.even though it was an extraordinary thing to do that needs to be thought

:39:31. > :39:31.thing to do that needs to be thought thing to do that needs to be thought

:39:31. > :39:33.through carefully. What does that through carefully. What does that

:39:33. > :39:33.through carefully. What does that through carefully. What does that

:39:33. > :39:36.mean? It does not mean you will get mean? It does not mean you will get

:39:36. > :39:37.mean? It does not mean you will get mean? It does not mean you will get

:39:37. > :39:39.your mortgage for free, and you will your mortgage for free, and you will

:39:39. > :39:41.your mortgage for free, and you will your mortgage for free, and you will

:39:41. > :39:42.still have to pay any. It does mean still have to pay any. It does mean

:39:42. > :39:43.still have to pay any. It does mean still have to pay any. It does mean

:39:43. > :39:45.that the Bank of England will charge that the Bank of England will charge

:39:45. > :39:46.that the Bank of England will charge other banks to deposit money with

:39:46. > :39:47.other banks to deposit money with other banks to deposit money with

:39:47. > :39:50.other banks to deposit money with it, an idea already tried in Sweden

:39:50. > :39:51.it, an idea already tried in Sweden it, an idea already tried in Sweden

:39:51. > :39:52.it, an idea already tried in Sweden and Denmark. The idea is to make it

:39:52. > :39:52.and Denmark. The idea is to make it and Denmark. The idea is to make it

:39:52. > :39:54.so unattractive for banks to so unattractive for banks to

:39:54. > :39:55.so unattractive for banks to stockpile cashed that they want to

:39:55. > :39:56.stockpile cashed that they want to stockpile cashed that they want to

:39:56. > :39:57.lend them money to businesses and lend them money to businesses and

:39:57. > :40:01.lend them money to businesses and maybe even me to kickstart the

:40:01. > :40:03.economy. economy.

:40:03. > :40:06.economy. economy.

:40:06. > :40:07.With us now is Ann Pettifor from With us now is Ann Pettifor from

:40:07. > :40:07.With us now is Ann Pettifor from prime economics and Julie Meyer,

:40:07. > :40:12.prime economics and Julie Meyer, prime economics and Julie Meyer,

:40:12. > :40:13.chief executive of Ariadne Capital chief executive of Ariadne Capital

:40:13. > :40:13.chief executive of Ariadne Capital chief executive of Ariadne Capital

:40:13. > :40:15.Fund. If we borrow more, do interest Fund. If we borrow more, do interest

:40:15. > :40:18.Fund. If we borrow more, do interest Fund. If we borrow more, do interest

:40:18. > :40:19.rates go up? Is it as simple as rates go up? Is it as simple as

:40:19. > :40:20.rates go up? Is it as simple as rates go up? Is it as simple as

:40:20. > :40:21.that? It is much more complex. That that? It is much more complex. That

:40:21. > :40:23.that? It is much more complex. That that? It is much more complex. That

:40:23. > :40:24.is one of the problems with just is one of the problems with just

:40:24. > :40:28.is one of the problems with just isolating out interest rates within

:40:28. > :40:28.isolating out interest rates within isolating out interest rates within

:40:28. > :40:29.isolating out interest rates within a complex system. You have to look

:40:29. > :40:33.a complex system. You have to look a complex system. You have to look

:40:33. > :40:34.at tax policy and the overall at tax policy and the overall

:40:34. > :40:36.at tax policy and the overall environment. The government has said

:40:36. > :40:37.environment. The government has said environment. The government has said

:40:37. > :40:37.environment. The government has said we have had these record lows in

:40:37. > :40:39.we have had these record lows in we have had these record lows in

:40:39. > :40:40.we have had these record lows in terms of interest rates. One of the

:40:40. > :40:42.terms of interest rates. One of the terms of interest rates. One of the

:40:42. > :40:45.problems of borrowing more is that problems of borrowing more is that

:40:45. > :40:47.problems of borrowing more is that interest payments will go up.

:40:47. > :40:47.interest payments will go up. interest payments will go up.

:40:47. > :40:48.interest payments will go up. that true? I don't think it is,

:40:48. > :40:49.that true? I don't think it is, that true? I don't think it is,

:40:49. > :40:50.because the Bank of England is because the Bank of England is

:40:50. > :40:53.because the Bank of England is because the Bank of England is

:40:53. > :40:53.setting the policy rate at which the setting the policy rate at which the

:40:53. > :40:54.setting the policy rate at which the government borrows. And it has the

:40:54. > :40:58.government borrows. And it has the government borrows. And it has the

:40:58. > :40:59.government borrows. And it has the power to raise them or lower than.

:40:59. > :40:59.power to raise them or lower than. power to raise them or lower than.

:41:00. > :41:04.power to raise them or lower than. In a crisis, the Bank of England

:41:04. > :41:05.In a crisis, the Bank of England In a crisis, the Bank of England

:41:05. > :41:06.lowered them very dramatically. lowered them very dramatically.

:41:06. > :41:12.lowered them very dramatically. lowered them very dramatically.

:41:12. > :41:15.they are set by the market. No, it they are set by the market. No, it

:41:15. > :41:15.they are set by the market. No, it is not. Effectively, the rate is

:41:15. > :41:18.is not. Effectively, the rate is is not. Effectively, the rate is

:41:18. > :41:23.is not. Effectively, the rate is very low because it is not the wand

:41:23. > :41:23.very low because it is not the wand very low because it is not the wand

:41:23. > :41:27.vigilantes... The bank is buying vigilantes... The bank is buying

:41:27. > :41:28.vigilantes... The bank is buying itself all the government bond is.

:41:28. > :41:29.itself all the government bond is. The government is effectively

:41:29. > :41:31.The government is effectively The government is effectively

:41:31. > :41:31.borrowing from its own bank. There borrowing from its own bank. There

:41:31. > :41:33.borrowing from its own bank. There borrowing from its own bank. There

:41:33. > :41:34.was for a couple of months ago when was for a couple of months ago when

:41:34. > :41:35.was for a couple of months ago when was for a couple of months ago when

:41:35. > :41:36.they took the profits from that and they took the profits from that and

:41:36. > :41:37.they took the profits from that and put it back onto the Treasury

:41:37. > :41:39.put it back onto the Treasury put it back onto the Treasury

:41:39. > :41:40.balance sheet. I not upset about balance sheet. I not upset about

:41:40. > :41:47.balance sheet. I not upset about that because it is the government's

:41:47. > :41:51.that because it is the government's that because it is the government's

:41:51. > :41:54.bank. There are many objectives. We bank. There are many objectives. We

:41:54. > :41:55.bank. There are many objectives. We bank. There are many objectives. We

:41:55. > :41:56.see the profits. There are so many see the profits. There are so many

:41:56. > :41:57.see the profits. There are so many see the profits. There are so many

:41:57. > :41:58.things they are trying to do will things they are trying to do will

:41:58. > :42:01.things they are trying to do will stop from the small business and

:42:01. > :42:02.stop from the small business and technology sector, it is

:42:02. > :42:03.technology sector, it is technology sector, it is

:42:03. > :42:05.frustrating. So many people are frustrating. So many people are

:42:05. > :42:06.frustrating. So many people are frustrating. So many people are

:42:06. > :42:07.trying to get lending to them, but trying to get lending to them, but

:42:07. > :42:08.trying to get lending to them, but trying to get lending to them, but

:42:08. > :42:09.how about just early payment of a how about just early payment of a

:42:09. > :42:11.how about just early payment of a lot of their early suppliers? Why

:42:11. > :42:12.lot of their early suppliers? Why lot of their early suppliers? Why

:42:12. > :42:13.lot of their early suppliers? Why not try and get more liquidity, as

:42:13. > :42:15.not try and get more liquidity, as not try and get more liquidity, as

:42:15. > :42:17.opposed to getting lending going. If opposed to getting lending going. If

:42:17. > :42:18.opposed to getting lending going. If rates are low, banks do not

:42:18. > :42:23.rates are low, banks do not rates are low, banks do not

:42:23. > :42:24.necessarily have an incentive to necessarily have an incentive to

:42:24. > :42:25.necessarily have an incentive to necessarily have an incentive to

:42:25. > :42:27.lend. But the bank has no control lend. But the bank has no control

:42:27. > :42:32.lend. But the bank has no control over what private banks are lending.

:42:32. > :42:33.over what private banks are lending. over what private banks are lending.

:42:33. > :42:34.Private banks might be borrowing at Private banks might be borrowing at

:42:34. > :42:34.Private banks might be borrowing at Private banks might be borrowing at

:42:34. > :42:40.0.5% and lending at 10%. Or not 0.5% and lending at 10%. Or not

:42:40. > :42:40.0.5% and lending at 10%. Or not lending at all. But small businesses

:42:40. > :42:41.lending at all. But small businesses lending at all. But small businesses

:42:41. > :42:43.lending at all. But small businesses are often offered a loan for an

:42:43. > :42:44.are often offered a loan for an are often offered a loan for an

:42:44. > :42:46.are often offered a loan for an overdraft at 10%. But that is a huge

:42:46. > :42:47.overdraft at 10%. But that is a huge overdraft at 10%. But that is a huge

:42:47. > :42:48.amount of money. So the spread amount of money. So the spread

:42:48. > :42:50.amount of money. So the spread between what the banks are borrowing

:42:50. > :42:50.between what the banks are borrowing between what the banks are borrowing

:42:50. > :42:54.between what the banks are borrowing at and what they are lending act is

:42:54. > :42:55.at and what they are lending act is at and what they are lending act is

:42:55. > :42:56.outrageous. The austerity plan which outrageous. The austerity plan which

:42:56. > :42:57.outrageous. The austerity plan which outrageous. The austerity plan which

:42:57. > :42:58.they will not deviate from, it is they will not deviate from, it is

:42:58. > :43:01.they will not deviate from, it is they will not deviate from, it is

:43:01. > :43:04.half a plan, not a full plan. We half a plan, not a full plan. We

:43:04. > :43:05.half a plan, not a full plan. We will regain our triple-A credit

:43:05. > :43:06.will regain our triple-A credit will regain our triple-A credit

:43:06. > :43:07.will regain our triple-A credit rating, but it will not be on the

:43:07. > :43:07.rating, but it will not be on the rating, but it will not be on the

:43:07. > :43:09.bank of anything the government bank of anything the government

:43:09. > :43:09.bank of anything the government bank of anything the government

:43:09. > :43:10.bank of anything the government does. It will be on the back of the

:43:10. > :43:12.does. It will be on the back of the entrepreneurs who rebuild the

:43:12. > :43:13.entrepreneurs who rebuild the entrepreneurs who rebuild the

:43:13. > :43:13.economy. You should have more economy. You should have more

:43:13. > :43:14.economy. You should have more entrepreneurs on your show and ask

:43:14. > :43:15.entrepreneurs on your show and ask entrepreneurs on your show and ask

:43:15. > :43:21.entrepreneurs on your show and ask them what they want in order to do

:43:21. > :43:23.them what they want in order to do them what they want in order to do

:43:23. > :43:26.that. Their biggest fixed cost goes that. Their biggest fixed cost goes

:43:26. > :43:27.that. Their biggest fixed cost goes to the government. Let's eliminate

:43:27. > :43:34.to the government. Let's eliminate to the government. Let's eliminate

:43:34. > :43:35.taxes on businesses like national taxes on businesses like national

:43:35. > :43:35.taxes on businesses like national insurance. Small businesses who have

:43:35. > :43:36.insurance. Small businesses who have insurance. Small businesses who have

:43:36. > :43:44.come on here have said quantitative come on here have said quantitative

:43:44. > :43:45.come on here have said quantitative come on here have said quantitative

:43:45. > :43:47.easing has not worked for them. easing has not worked for them.

:43:47. > :43:50.easing has not worked for them. struggle to understand why we want

:43:50. > :43:51.struggle to understand why we want struggle to understand why we want

:43:51. > :43:52.the government to play this the government to play this

:43:52. > :43:53.the government to play this increased role. We want the economy

:43:53. > :43:58.increased role. We want the economy increased role. We want the economy

:43:58. > :43:59.to shift towards the entrepreneurs. to shift towards the entrepreneurs.

:43:59. > :44:00.to shift towards the entrepreneurs. The economy can't grow and

:44:00. > :44:00.The economy can't grow and The economy can't grow and

:44:00. > :44:08.businesses can't invest. They need businesses can't invest. They need

:44:08. > :44:09.businesses can't invest. They need businesses can't invest. They need

:44:09. > :44:11.to borrow to take risks. It is not to borrow to take risks. It is not

:44:11. > :44:12.to borrow to take risks. It is not to borrow to take risks. It is not

:44:12. > :44:13.enough to keep the bank rate loan, enough to keep the bank rate loan,

:44:13. > :44:14.enough to keep the bank rate loan, enough to keep the bank rate loan,

:44:14. > :44:15.it is important to get the private it is important to get the private

:44:15. > :44:16.it is important to get the private it is important to get the private

:44:16. > :44:17.banks to lower their rates, and we banks to lower their rates, and we

:44:17. > :44:18.banks to lower their rates, and we banks to lower their rates, and we

:44:18. > :44:19.have no control over that, not even have no control over that, not even

:44:19. > :44:22.have no control over that, not even have no control over that, not even

:44:22. > :44:23.the ones we own, like RBS. If you the ones we own, like RBS. If you

:44:23. > :44:25.the ones we own, like RBS. If you can borrow in favourable ways, that

:44:25. > :44:26.can borrow in favourable ways, that can borrow in favourable ways, that

:44:26. > :44:27.can borrow in favourable ways, that can borrow in favourable ways, that

:44:27. > :44:27.can borrow in favourable ways, that is a win, but it is also a win to be

:44:28. > :44:31.is a win, but it is also a win to be is a win, but it is also a win to be

:44:31. > :44:32.is a win, but it is also a win to be able to keep more of your own money.

:44:32. > :44:33.able to keep more of your own money. able to keep more of your own money.

:44:33. > :44:34.able to keep more of your own money. able to keep more of your own money.

:44:34. > :44:36.If I can keep my money as opposed to If I can keep my money as opposed to

:44:36. > :44:37.If I can keep my money as opposed to paying the biggest fixed costs to

:44:37. > :44:38.paying the biggest fixed costs to paying the biggest fixed costs to

:44:38. > :44:39.paying the biggest fixed costs to government, I can also invest in my

:44:39. > :44:41.government, I can also invest in my government, I can also invest in my

:44:41. > :44:42.business. There are different ways business. There are different ways

:44:42. > :44:43.business. There are different ways business. There are different ways

:44:43. > :44:44.to give capital to a business or a to give capital to a business or a

:44:44. > :44:44.to give capital to a business or a to give capital to a business or a

:44:44. > :44:54.person. One of them is to let them person. One of them is to let them

:44:54. > :45:02.

:45:02. > :45:04.I worry about how much tax I have I worry about how much tax I have

:45:04. > :45:06.I worry about how much tax I have to pay. I worry about customers

:45:06. > :45:07.to pay. I worry about customers to pay. I worry about customers

:45:07. > :45:10.coming through the door. They coming through the door. They

:45:10. > :45:12.coming through the door. They cannot pay the taxes to make

:45:12. > :45:15.cannot pay the taxes to make profits without economic activity.

:45:15. > :45:16.profits without economic activity. profits without economic activity.

:45:16. > :45:19.The Chancellor is determined to The Chancellor is determined to

:45:19. > :45:21.shrink economic activity. Borrowing shrink economic activity. Borrowing

:45:21. > :45:22.shrink economic activity. Borrowing shrink economic activity. Borrowing

:45:22. > :45:22.more is not the way forward as so more is not the way forward as so

:45:22. > :45:24.more is not the way forward as so more is not the way forward as so

:45:24. > :45:25.many people have come on to say, many people have come on to say,

:45:25. > :45:28.many people have come on to say, because that would lead to more

:45:28. > :45:29.because that would lead to more because that would lead to more

:45:29. > :45:31.debt? I disagreed. The point is debt? I disagreed. The point is

:45:31. > :45:32.debt? I disagreed. The point is this, the Government is not a

:45:32. > :45:35.this, the Government is not a this, the Government is not a

:45:35. > :45:36.growing income. The reason we are growing income. The reason we are

:45:36. > :45:37.growing income. The reason we are not paying enough in tax revenues

:45:37. > :45:37.not paying enough in tax revenues not paying enough in tax revenues

:45:37. > :45:40.not paying enough in tax revenues is we are not making enough profits

:45:40. > :45:41.is we are not making enough profits is we are not making enough profits

:45:41. > :45:42.to pay taxes. It the Government to pay taxes. It the Government

:45:42. > :45:43.to pay taxes. It the Government to pay taxes. It the Government

:45:43. > :45:48.to pay taxes. It the Government wants us to pay them more - which I

:45:48. > :45:48.wants us to pay them more - which I wants us to pay them more - which I

:45:48. > :45:50.wants us to pay them more - which I am not against, you have to earn

:45:50. > :45:52.am not against, you have to earn am not against, you have to earn

:45:52. > :45:53.am not against, you have to earn more. We have to lose weight as a

:45:53. > :45:55.more. We have to lose weight as a more. We have to lose weight as a

:45:55. > :45:56.country to run faster. We are country to run faster. We are

:45:56. > :45:57.country to run faster. We are producing this collective thing you

:45:57. > :45:58.producing this collective thing you producing this collective thing you

:45:58. > :45:59.producing this collective thing you producing this collective thing you

:45:59. > :46:00.have to do. I am going to stop you, have to do. I am going to stop you,

:46:00. > :46:01.have to do. I am going to stop you, have to do. I am going to stop you,

:46:01. > :46:05.but we will have you and again to but we will have you and again to

:46:05. > :46:05.but we will have you and again to but we will have you and again to

:46:05. > :46:06.fight it on another day. Now, I fight it on another day. Now, I

:46:06. > :46:07.fight it on another day. Now, I don't suppose there are many things

:46:07. > :46:08.don't suppose there are many things don't suppose there are many things

:46:08. > :46:09.don't suppose there are many things Alan Johnson and Tory MPs agree on,

:46:09. > :46:11.Alan Johnson and Tory MPs agree on, Alan Johnson and Tory MPs agree on,

:46:11. > :46:14.especially when it comes to tax. especially when it comes to tax.

:46:14. > :46:15.especially when it comes to tax. especially when it comes to tax.

:46:15. > :46:16.But what about tax bands? It was But what about tax bands? It was

:46:16. > :46:17.But what about tax bands? It was Alan's former leader Gordon Brown

:46:17. > :46:18.Alan's former leader Gordon Brown Alan's former leader Gordon Brown

:46:18. > :46:19.Alan's former leader Gordon Brown who brought in a 10p tax rate in

:46:19. > :46:20.who brought in a 10p tax rate in who brought in a 10p tax rate in

:46:20. > :46:22.who brought in a 10p tax rate in 1999. Then in 2008 he scrapped it

:46:22. > :46:22.1999. Then in 2008 he scrapped it 1999. Then in 2008 he scrapped it

:46:22. > :46:23.again. Some chart Labour's failure again. Some chart Labour's failure

:46:23. > :46:24.again. Some chart Labour's failure again. Some chart Labour's failure

:46:24. > :46:25.to win in 2010 back to that to win in 2010 back to that

:46:25. > :46:26.to win in 2010 back to that to win in 2010 back to that

:46:26. > :46:31.decision and how it went down with decision and how it went down with

:46:31. > :46:32.decision and how it went down with low-paid workers - not very well.

:46:32. > :46:33.low-paid workers - not very well. low-paid workers - not very well.

:46:33. > :46:34.Well, Ed Miliband now says Gordon Well, Ed Miliband now says Gordon

:46:34. > :46:35.Well, Ed Miliband now says Gordon Well, Ed Miliband now says Gordon

:46:35. > :46:38.Brown was wrong and wants to bring Brown was wrong and wants to bring

:46:38. > :46:39.Brown was wrong and wants to bring Brown was wrong and wants to bring

:46:39. > :46:49.back the 10p rate. And at least one back the 10p rate. And at least one

:46:49. > :47:04.

:47:05. > :47:06.back the 10p rate. And at least one # I got my income tax this morning.

:47:06. > :47:07.# I got my income tax this morning. # I got my income tax this morning.

:47:07. > :47:08.# I got my income tax this morning. I believe in lower taxes, but we

:47:08. > :47:11.I believe in lower taxes, but we I believe in lower taxes, but we

:47:11. > :47:12.need them for everyone, not just need them for everyone, not just

:47:12. > :47:13.need them for everyone, not just need them for everyone, not just

:47:13. > :47:14.the wealthy. That is why I am the wealthy. That is why I am

:47:14. > :47:17.the wealthy. That is why I am urging the Prime Minister and

:47:17. > :47:17.urging the Prime Minister and urging the Prime Minister and

:47:17. > :47:20.George Osborne to reintroduce the George Osborne to reintroduce the

:47:20. > :47:20.George Osborne to reintroduce the George Osborne to reintroduce the

:47:20. > :47:22.10 pence income tax rate. It was 10 pence income tax rate. It was

:47:22. > :47:24.10 pence income tax rate. It was Gordon Brown who abolished the 10

:47:24. > :47:25.Gordon Brown who abolished the 10 Gordon Brown who abolished the 10

:47:25. > :47:27.pens tax rate costing low-income pens tax rate costing low-income

:47:27. > :47:29.pens tax rate costing low-income workers hundreds of pounds owed the

:47:29. > :47:30.workers hundreds of pounds owed the workers hundreds of pounds owed the

:47:30. > :47:32.year. Overnight their tax rate went year. Overnight their tax rate went

:47:32. > :47:32.year. Overnight their tax rate went year. Overnight their tax rate went

:47:32. > :47:33.year. Overnight their tax rate went up from 10p to 20 pence in the pan.

:47:33. > :47:37.up from 10p to 20 pence in the pan. up from 10p to 20 pence in the pan.

:47:37. > :47:38.up from 10p to 20 pence in the pan. We have to reverse that. If we

:47:38. > :47:39.We have to reverse that. If we We have to reverse that. If we

:47:39. > :47:42.We have to reverse that. If we introduce the 10p tax band up to

:47:42. > :47:43.introduce the 10p tax band up to introduce the 10p tax band up to

:47:43. > :47:51.�12,000, workers could be up to �12,000, workers could be up to

:47:51. > :47:52.�12,000, workers could be up to �12,000, workers could be up to

:47:53. > :47:53.�250 a year better off. Some people �250 a year better off. Some people

:47:53. > :47:55.�250 a year better off. Some people �250 a year better off. Some people

:47:55. > :47:57.say restoring the 10 p tax would be say restoring the 10 p tax would be

:47:57. > :47:57.say restoring the 10 p tax would be expensive. Yes, of course it would.

:47:57. > :47:59.expensive. Yes, of course it would. expensive. Yes, of course it would.

:47:59. > :48:01.expensive. Yes, of course it would. But it is worth it. The low-paid

:48:01. > :48:03.But it is worth it. The low-paid But it is worth it. The low-paid

:48:03. > :48:04.would benefit the most. I am would benefit the most. I am

:48:04. > :48:06.would benefit the most. I am arguing the extra revenues raised

:48:06. > :48:07.arguing the extra revenues raised arguing the extra revenues raised

:48:07. > :48:08.arguing the extra revenues raised from taxing the rich down to 45p,

:48:08. > :48:09.from taxing the rich down to 45p, from taxing the rich down to 45p,

:48:09. > :48:12.from taxing the rich down to 45p, should be used to fund the new 10

:48:12. > :48:15.should be used to fund the new 10 should be used to fund the new 10

:48:15. > :48:16.pence income tax rate. Let's make pence income tax rate. Let's make

:48:16. > :48:17.pence income tax rate. Let's make tax cuts in moral mission, and

:48:17. > :48:18.tax cuts in moral mission, and tax cuts in moral mission, and

:48:18. > :48:20.tax cuts in moral mission, and let's make it for the many and not

:48:20. > :48:21.the few. the few.

:48:21. > :48:22.the few. Well Robert Halfon has finished his

:48:22. > :48:22.Well Robert Halfon has finished his Well Robert Halfon has finished his

:48:22. > :48:26.Well Robert Halfon has finished his cuppa and joins us now to discuss

:48:26. > :48:27.cuppa and joins us now to discuss cuppa and joins us now to discuss

:48:27. > :48:28.cuppa and joins us now to discuss his idea. And our guest of the day

:48:28. > :48:32.his idea. And our guest of the day his idea. And our guest of the day

:48:32. > :48:34.Alan Johnson is still with us. Alan Johnson is still with us.

:48:34. > :48:35.Alan Johnson is still with us. Why not just raised the threshold

:48:35. > :48:37.Why not just raised the threshold Why not just raised the threshold

:48:37. > :48:39.as this coalition has been doing, as this coalition has been doing,

:48:39. > :48:41.as this coalition has been doing, even further, to take more people

:48:41. > :48:42.even further, to take more people even further, to take more people

:48:43. > :48:43.even further, to take more people out of tax altogether, and put some

:48:43. > :48:45.out of tax altogether, and put some out of tax altogether, and put some

:48:45. > :48:47.out of tax altogether, and put some in a 10 pence band? I will come

:48:47. > :48:47.in a 10 pence band? I will come in a 10 pence band? I will come

:48:47. > :48:49.in a 10 pence band? I will come raising it to 10,000, but if you

:48:49. > :48:50.raising it to 10,000, but if you raising it to 10,000, but if you

:48:50. > :48:52.keep raising... It's has not keep raising... It's has not

:48:52. > :48:53.keep raising... It's has not happened yet, of course. It could

:48:53. > :48:55.happened yet, of course. It could happened yet, of course. It could

:48:55. > :48:56.happened yet, of course. It could be on its way. We should raise its

:48:56. > :48:58.be on its way. We should raise its be on its way. We should raise its

:48:58. > :49:01.be on its way. We should raise its up to the level of minimum ways,

:49:01. > :49:02.up to the level of minimum ways, up to the level of minimum ways,

:49:02. > :49:03.12,500. Then you introduce the 10 12,500. Then you introduce the 10

:49:03. > :49:05.12,500. Then you introduce the 10 12,500. Then you introduce the 10

:49:05. > :49:06.pence tax rate. If you keep raising pence tax rate. If you keep raising

:49:06. > :49:08.pence tax rate. If you keep raising the threshold, people don't have a

:49:08. > :49:09.the threshold, people don't have a the threshold, people don't have a

:49:09. > :49:10.the threshold, people don't have a stake in the system. It you invite

:49:10. > :49:11.stake in the system. It you invite stake in the system. It you invite

:49:11. > :49:12.stake in the system. It you invite people to a restaurant and say to a

:49:13. > :49:14.people to a restaurant and say to a people to a restaurant and say to a

:49:14. > :49:15.certain group of people, they don't certain group of people, they don't

:49:15. > :49:16.certain group of people, they don't certain group of people, they don't

:49:16. > :49:17.have to pay any of the bill, they have to pay any of the bill, they

:49:17. > :49:20.have to pay any of the bill, they have to pay any of the bill, they

:49:20. > :49:23.have no stake in the food and don't have no stake in the food and don't

:49:23. > :49:24.have no stake in the food and don't bother what they order. You have

:49:24. > :49:26.bother what they order. You have bother what they order. You have

:49:26. > :49:28.bother what they order. You have been to dinner with duo have you?

:49:28. > :49:30.been to dinner with duo have you? been to dinner with duo have you?

:49:30. > :49:31.been to dinner with duo have you? am with Robert. I sat in the

:49:31. > :49:33.am with Robert. I sat in the am with Robert. I sat in the

:49:33. > :49:34.Cabinet when Gordon announced it. Cabinet when Gordon announced it.

:49:34. > :49:35.Cabinet when Gordon announced it. Cabinet when Gordon announced it.

:49:35. > :49:37.He was the Chancellor then and Tony He was the Chancellor then and Tony

:49:37. > :49:37.He was the Chancellor then and Tony Blair was the Prime Minister. He

:49:37. > :49:39.Blair was the Prime Minister. He Blair was the Prime Minister. He

:49:39. > :49:40.Blair was the Prime Minister. He announced it at the same time of

:49:40. > :49:42.announced it at the same time of announced it at the same time of

:49:42. > :49:43.this magic reduction in basic rate this magic reduction in basic rate

:49:43. > :49:45.this magic reduction in basic rate this magic reduction in basic rate

:49:45. > :49:46.of tax. I remember it well.He was of tax. I remember it well.He was

:49:46. > :49:47.of tax. I remember it well.He was of tax. I remember it well.He was

:49:47. > :49:50.given a round of applause. It was given a round of applause. It was

:49:50. > :49:51.given a round of applause. It was given a round of applause. It was

:49:51. > :49:52.the biggest disaster. It hit us far the biggest disaster. It hit us far

:49:52. > :49:56.the biggest disaster. It hit us far wider than the number of people

:49:56. > :49:57.wider than the number of people wider than the number of people

:49:57. > :49:59.affected. We had to scramble a affected. We had to scramble a

:49:59. > :50:01.affected. We had to scramble a round, Alastair Darling found some

:50:01. > :50:03.round, Alastair Darling found some round, Alastair Darling found some

:50:03. > :50:04.round, Alastair Darling found some ways to remedy it. And I think it

:50:04. > :50:05.ways to remedy it. And I think it ways to remedy it. And I think it

:50:05. > :50:06.ways to remedy it. And I think it is some -- still there as a very

:50:06. > :50:10.is some -- still there as a very is some -- still there as a very

:50:10. > :50:11.is some -- still there as a very big mistake. I'm glad you said in

:50:12. > :50:12.big mistake. I'm glad you said in big mistake. I'm glad you said in

:50:12. > :50:14.the introduction that it Gordon the introduction that it Gordon

:50:15. > :50:15.the introduction that it Gordon Brown introduced it. At the time

:50:15. > :50:16.Brown introduced it. At the time Brown introduced it. At the time

:50:16. > :50:20.before the national minimum wage before the national minimum wage

:50:20. > :50:21.before the national minimum wage before the national minimum wage

:50:21. > :50:24.had taken hold or tax would -- tax had taken hold or tax would -- tax

:50:24. > :50:26.had taken hold or tax would -- tax credits had taken hold. Yawed idea

:50:26. > :50:28.credits had taken hold. Yawed idea credits had taken hold. Yawed idea

:50:28. > :50:28.credits had taken hold. Yawed idea credits had taken hold. Yawed idea

:50:28. > :50:32.is up to 10,000, no tax. Then up to is up to 10,000, no tax. Then up to

:50:32. > :50:34.is up to 10,000, no tax. Then up to is up to 10,000, no tax. Then up to

:50:34. > :50:36.turn up to the minimum wage, 12,500, turn up to the minimum wage, 12,500,

:50:36. > :50:37.turn up to the minimum wage, 12,500, turn up to the minimum wage, 12,500,

:50:37. > :50:39.so the tax band of �2,500 would be so the tax band of �2,500 would be

:50:39. > :50:41.so the tax band of �2,500 would be so the tax band of �2,500 would be

:50:41. > :50:42.at the 10 pence rate. That would at the 10 pence rate. That would

:50:42. > :50:44.at the 10 pence rate. That would at the 10 pence rate. That would

:50:44. > :50:46.cost about �7 billion, where we get cost about �7 billion, where we get

:50:46. > :50:48.cost about �7 billion, where we get that from? First of all, David

:50:48. > :50:50.that from? First of all, David that from? First of all, David

:50:50. > :50:51.Cameron said yesterday, when the Cameron said yesterday, when the

:50:51. > :50:52.Cameron said yesterday, when the Cameron said yesterday, when the

:50:52. > :50:53.tax rate was at 50 pence, the tax rate was at 50 pence, the

:50:53. > :50:54.tax rate was at 50 pence, the Government lasts �7 billion. They

:50:54. > :50:55.Government lasts �7 billion. They Government lasts �7 billion. They

:50:55. > :50:58.Government lasts �7 billion. They will get lots of other revenue by

:50:58. > :51:00.will get lots of other revenue by will get lots of other revenue by

:51:00. > :51:04.reducing the rate of 45p. According reducing the rate of 45p. According

:51:04. > :51:05.reducing the rate of 45p. According to David Cameron in Parliament.

:51:05. > :51:06.to David Cameron in Parliament. to David Cameron in Parliament.

:51:06. > :51:08.to David Cameron in Parliament. This would be contested by Alan and

:51:09. > :51:10.This would be contested by Alan and This would be contested by Alan and

:51:11. > :51:11.his colleagues, the Government says his colleagues, the Government says

:51:11. > :51:13.his colleagues, the Government says his colleagues, the Government says

:51:13. > :51:14.cutting from 50 to 45 will cost the cutting from 50 to 45 will cost the

:51:14. > :51:15.cutting from 50 to 45 will cost the Exchequer at least �100 million. It

:51:15. > :51:17.Exchequer at least �100 million. It Exchequer at least �100 million. It

:51:17. > :51:19.Exchequer at least �100 million. It does not raise an extra 7 billion.

:51:19. > :51:20.does not raise an extra 7 billion. does not raise an extra 7 billion.

:51:21. > :51:21.does not raise an extra 7 billion. They lost 7 billion when the rate...

:51:21. > :51:23.They lost 7 billion when the rate... They lost 7 billion when the rate...

:51:23. > :51:24.They lost 7 billion when the rate... They won't get that back. They will

:51:24. > :51:26.They won't get that back. They will They won't get that back. They will

:51:26. > :51:27.They won't get that back. They will get some of it back. Then we should

:51:27. > :51:28.get some of it back. Then we should get some of it back. Then we should

:51:28. > :51:30.get some of it back. Then we should get some of it back. Then we should

:51:30. > :51:31.use it to pay for the 10 pence tax use it to pay for the 10 pence tax

:51:31. > :51:31.use it to pay for the 10 pence tax use it to pay for the 10 pence tax

:51:31. > :51:34.rate. Won't it leaves a huge hole rate. Won't it leaves a huge hole

:51:34. > :51:35.rate. Won't it leaves a huge hole rate. Won't it leaves a huge hole

:51:35. > :51:37.in your plans? No, we're looking at in your plans? No, we're looking at

:51:37. > :51:38.in your plans? No, we're looking at existing money, I am not spending

:51:38. > :51:40.existing money, I am not spending existing money, I am not spending

:51:40. > :51:42.extra money or borrowing. I don't extra money or borrowing. I don't

:51:42. > :51:43.extra money or borrowing. I don't believe in taxing property, as the

:51:43. > :51:44.believe in taxing property, as the believe in taxing property, as the

:51:44. > :51:47.Labour Party is suggesting, because Labour Party is suggesting, because

:51:47. > :51:48.Labour Party is suggesting, because Labour Party is suggesting, because

:51:48. > :51:50.it creates a precedent. It may hit it creates a precedent. It may hit

:51:50. > :51:51.it creates a precedent. It may hit it creates a precedent. It may hit

:51:51. > :51:51.houses of 2 million now, but it houses of 2 million now, but it

:51:51. > :51:52.houses of 2 million now, but it houses of 2 million now, but it

:51:52. > :51:54.will hit houses of one million in will hit houses of one million in

:51:54. > :51:56.will hit houses of one million in will hit houses of one million in

:51:56. > :51:58.the future. That does not cover his the future. That does not cover his

:51:58. > :51:59.the future. That does not cover his the future. That does not cover his

:52:00. > :52:01.band of 10 to 12,500. It is band of 10 to 12,500. It is

:52:01. > :52:02.band of 10 to 12,500. It is band of 10 to 12,500. It is

:52:02. > :52:03.interesting. It is a split in the interesting. It is a split in the

:52:03. > :52:05.coalition because the coalition coalition because the coalition

:52:05. > :52:06.coalition because the coalition coalition because the coalition

:52:06. > :52:07.would want to go to the 12,500 as would want to go to the 12,500 as

:52:07. > :52:10.would want to go to the 12,500 as would want to go to the 12,500 as

:52:10. > :52:11.the band people don't pay any tax the band people don't pay any tax

:52:11. > :52:12.the band people don't pay any tax the band people don't pay any tax

:52:12. > :52:13.at all. This is a debate on how at all. This is a debate on how

:52:14. > :52:14.at all. This is a debate on how at all. This is a debate on how

:52:14. > :52:16.best to help the lower paid. Is the best to help the lower paid. Is the

:52:16. > :52:18.best to help the lower paid. Is the Chancellor listening to you?

:52:18. > :52:19.Chancellor listening to you? Chancellor listening to you?

:52:19. > :52:21.Chancellor listening to you? think they are. You may be right or

:52:21. > :52:22.think they are. You may be right or think they are. You may be right or

:52:22. > :52:23.think they are. You may be right or wrong, but I would suggest if there

:52:23. > :52:24.wrong, but I would suggest if there wrong, but I would suggest if there

:52:24. > :52:25.wrong, but I would suggest if there is any spare money around he will

:52:25. > :52:26.is any spare money around he will is any spare money around he will

:52:26. > :52:27.is any spare money around he will keep the Lib Dems happy by taking

:52:27. > :52:29.keep the Lib Dems happy by taking keep the Lib Dems happy by taking

:52:29. > :52:29.more people out of tax altogether. more people out of tax altogether.

:52:30. > :52:32.more people out of tax altogether. more people out of tax altogether.

:52:32. > :52:33.That is more likely what he will That is more likely what he will

:52:33. > :52:35.That is more likely what he will That is more likely what he will

:52:35. > :52:37.do? We have to focus on cost of do? We have to focus on cost of

:52:37. > :52:39.do? We have to focus on cost of living taxes. We may carry on

:52:39. > :52:41.living taxes. We may carry on living taxes. We may carry on

:52:41. > :52:42.removing -- raising the threshold. removing -- raising the threshold.

:52:42. > :52:43.removing -- raising the threshold. But especially for the considered

:52:43. > :52:45.But especially for the considered But especially for the considered

:52:45. > :52:46.party, we need a fundamental tax party, we need a fundamental tax

:52:46. > :52:47.party, we need a fundamental tax party, we need a fundamental tax

:52:47. > :52:47.reform and show people we are on reform and show people we are on

:52:47. > :52:48.reform and show people we are on reform and show people we are on

:52:48. > :52:49.the side of the poor and the best the side of the poor and the best

:52:49. > :52:50.the side of the poor and the best the side of the poor and the best

:52:50. > :52:52.the side of the poor and the best way to do that is the 10 pence tax

:52:52. > :52:53.way to do that is the 10 pence tax rate. Don't go away.

:52:53. > :52:54.rate. Don't go away. rate. Don't go away.

:52:54. > :52:55.Now it's not exactly the Paris Now it's not exactly the Paris

:52:55. > :52:56.Now it's not exactly the Paris Spring Collection but it certainly

:52:56. > :52:57.Spring Collection but it certainly Spring Collection but it certainly

:52:57. > :52:57.brought a little colour into the brought a little colour into the

:52:57. > :52:58.brought a little colour into the Commons yesterday. Should we be

:52:58. > :52:59.Commons yesterday. Should we be Commons yesterday. Should we be

:52:59. > :53:00.Commons yesterday. Should we be adding Sir Bob Russell MP to the

:53:00. > :53:01.adding Sir Bob Russell MP to the adding Sir Bob Russell MP to the

:53:01. > :53:02.adding Sir Bob Russell MP to the list of such style icons as Stella

:53:02. > :53:04.list of such style icons as Stella McCartney, Alexander McQueen, and

:53:04. > :53:05.McCartney, Alexander McQueen, and McCartney, Alexander McQueen, and

:53:05. > :53:10.Viviene Westwood? I'll leave it to Viviene Westwood? I'll leave it to

:53:10. > :53:13.you to judge. you to judge.

:53:13. > :53:14.you to judge. The Prime Minister has observed UK

:53:14. > :53:17.The Prime Minister has observed UK The Prime Minister has observed UK

:53:17. > :53:21.The Prime Minister has observed UK macro is a party of nutcases, freak

:53:21. > :53:22.macro is a party of nutcases, freak macro is a party of nutcases, freak

:53:22. > :53:27.case and closet racists. How are case and closet racists. How are

:53:27. > :53:28.case and closet racists. How are case and closet racists. How are

:53:28. > :53:30.the talks going? First of all, can the talks going? First of all, can

:53:30. > :53:34.the talks going? First of all, can I commend him on his splendid

:53:35. > :53:35.waistcoat. Enough! waistcoat. Enough!

:53:36. > :53:37.waistcoat. Enough! Not nearly "enough already" for us

:53:37. > :53:38.Not nearly "enough already" for us Not nearly "enough already" for us

:53:38. > :53:39.Not nearly "enough already" for us though. In a moment, we will be

:53:39. > :53:40.though. In a moment, we will be though. In a moment, we will be

:53:40. > :53:41.though. In a moment, we will be talking to Bob Rusell and from the

:53:41. > :53:42.talking to Bob Rusell and from the talking to Bob Rusell and from the

:53:42. > :53:42.other side of the Coalition the other side of the Coalition the

:53:42. > :53:43.other side of the Coalition the rather natty, Robert Halfon. But

:53:43. > :53:44.rather natty, Robert Halfon. But rather natty, Robert Halfon. But

:53:44. > :53:45.rather natty, Robert Halfon. But first, let's take a look at some of

:53:45. > :53:46.first, let's take a look at some of the most interesting' fashion

:53:46. > :53:47.the most interesting' fashion the most interesting' fashion

:53:47. > :53:48.adventures in politics. And, in adventures in politics. And, in

:53:48. > :53:49.adventures in politics. And, in common with most catwalks, there's

:53:49. > :53:59.common with most catwalks, there's common with most catwalks, there's

:53:59. > :54:06.

:54:06. > :54:10.# Based seeking here, they seek him there.

:54:10. > :54:11.there. there.

:54:11. > :54:21.there. # He is a dedicated follower of

:54:21. > :54:58.

:54:58. > :54:59.And Sir Bob Russell is with us and And Sir Bob Russell is with us and

:54:59. > :54:59.And Sir Bob Russell is with us and And Sir Bob Russell is with us and

:55:00. > :55:00.we've held on to Robert Halfon, who we've held on to Robert Halfon, who

:55:01. > :55:06.we've held on to Robert Halfon, who we've held on to Robert Halfon, who

:55:06. > :55:07.has some nifty style tips up his has some nifty style tips up his

:55:07. > :55:09.has some nifty style tips up his sleeve too. Just take me through

:55:09. > :55:13.sleeve too. Just take me through sleeve too. Just take me through

:55:13. > :55:14.the thought pattern on wearing that the thought pattern on wearing that

:55:14. > :55:15.lovely waistcoat? It was lovely waistcoat? It was

:55:15. > :55:16.lovely waistcoat? It was emphasising the fact that the Lib

:55:16. > :55:18.emphasising the fact that the Lib emphasising the fact that the Lib

:55:18. > :55:19.Dems, we are not Conservatives, we Dems, we are not Conservatives, we

:55:19. > :55:20.Dems, we are not Conservatives, we Dems, we are not Conservatives, we

:55:20. > :55:22.are part of the coalition and just are part of the coalition and just

:55:22. > :55:24.are part of the coalition and just when a vital by-election the

:55:24. > :55:27.when a vital by-election the when a vital by-election the

:55:27. > :55:30.previous week. It was his statement. previous week. It was his statement.

:55:30. > :55:34.previous week. It was his statement. Matching socks? Matching socks and

:55:34. > :55:35.Matching socks? Matching socks and Matching socks? Matching socks and

:55:35. > :55:38.Matching socks? Matching socks and a tide. This week I have spoken

:55:38. > :55:38.a tide. This week I have spoken a tide. This week I have spoken

:55:38. > :55:42.about Palestine, Israel, the future about Palestine, Israel, the future

:55:42. > :55:42.about Palestine, Israel, the future of the army. Nobody is interested.

:55:43. > :55:44.of the army. Nobody is interested. of the army. Nobody is interested.

:55:44. > :55:46.I were a waistcoat like this... I were a waistcoat like this...

:55:46. > :55:48.I were a waistcoat like this... I were a waistcoat like this...

:55:48. > :55:49.This is not your first outing in a This is not your first outing in a

:55:49. > :55:51.This is not your first outing in a waistcoat? This will be worn on

:55:51. > :55:52.waistcoat? This will be worn on waistcoat? This will be worn on

:55:52. > :55:54.waistcoat? This will be worn on Budget day. Because it has a coins

:55:54. > :55:56.Budget day. Because it has a coins Budget day. Because it has a coins

:55:56. > :55:58.Budget day. Because it has a coins on it? A very observant. And this

:55:58. > :55:59.on it? A very observant. And this on it? A very observant. And this

:55:59. > :56:00.on it? A very observant. And this is the State Opening. My have got a

:56:00. > :56:02.is the State Opening. My have got a is the State Opening. My have got a

:56:02. > :56:03.is the State Opening. My have got a chair a bit like that. If you look

:56:03. > :56:04.chair a bit like that. If you look chair a bit like that. If you look

:56:04. > :56:05.chair a bit like that. If you look at the fabric, it could have come

:56:05. > :56:06.at the fabric, it could have come at the fabric, it could have come

:56:06. > :56:09.at the fabric, it could have come off a chair because it is very

:56:09. > :56:09.off a chair because it is very off a chair because it is very

:56:09. > :56:10.thick. Anyway, I have brought thick. Anyway, I have brought

:56:10. > :56:14.thick. Anyway, I have brought together a collection. Make good

:56:14. > :56:18.together a collection. Make good family friend, Margaret Marchant,

:56:18. > :56:19.family friend, Margaret Marchant, family friend, Margaret Marchant,

:56:19. > :56:22.family friend, Margaret Marchant, has made nine. Somebody called it a

:56:22. > :56:24.has made nine. Somebody called it a has made nine. Somebody called it a

:56:24. > :56:26.has made nine. Somebody called it a cardigan coat. It is a waste coat.

:56:26. > :56:27.cardigan coat. It is a waste coat. cardigan coat. It is a waste coat.

:56:27. > :56:29.cardigan coat. It is a waste coat. The bottom button is undone as is

:56:29. > :56:31.The bottom button is undone as is The bottom button is undone as is

:56:31. > :56:32.The bottom button is undone as is the only way. The Lib Dem logo and

:56:32. > :56:33.the only way. The Lib Dem logo and the only way. The Lib Dem logo and

:56:33. > :56:35.the only way. The Lib Dem logo and the whole back is a massive Lib Dem

:56:35. > :56:36.the whole back is a massive Lib Dem the whole back is a massive Lib Dem

:56:36. > :56:38.the whole back is a massive Lib Dem logo. Perhaps we were just stick to

:56:38. > :56:39.logo. Perhaps we were just stick to logo. Perhaps we were just stick to

:56:39. > :56:40.the front. I always thought he the front. I always thought he

:56:40. > :56:42.the front. I always thought he looked like Rupert the Bear, but

:56:43. > :56:43.looked like Rupert the Bear, but looked like Rupert the Bear, but

:56:43. > :56:45.looked like Rupert the Bear, but not as could lead. But it is a

:56:45. > :56:47.not as could lead. But it is a not as could lead. But it is a

:56:47. > :56:49.magnificent set of waistcoats and I magnificent set of waistcoats and I

:56:49. > :56:52.magnificent set of waistcoats and I always complement him. You cannot

:56:52. > :56:53.always complement him. You cannot always complement him. You cannot

:56:53. > :56:53.always complement him. You cannot cast stones cos please show us this

:56:53. > :56:56.cast stones cos please show us this cast stones cos please show us this

:56:56. > :56:57.special edition to keep the fashion. special edition to keep the fashion.

:56:57. > :56:59.special edition to keep the fashion. special edition to keep the fashion.

:56:59. > :56:59.My had hoped to keep this a secret My had hoped to keep this a secret

:56:59. > :57:00.My had hoped to keep this a secret My had hoped to keep this a secret

:57:00. > :57:02.but I was outed by Tim Montgomerie but I was outed by Tim Montgomerie

:57:02. > :57:03.but I was outed by Tim Montgomerie but I was outed by Tim Montgomerie

:57:03. > :57:05.in the Times a few weeks ago he in the Times a few weeks ago he

:57:05. > :57:07.in the Times a few weeks ago he in the Times a few weeks ago he

:57:07. > :57:08.knew me at university. I wore these knew me at university. I wore these

:57:08. > :57:11.knew me at university. I wore these at university. You wore them at

:57:11. > :57:12.at university. You wore them at at university. You wore them at

:57:12. > :57:13.university? They are slippers. university? They are slippers.

:57:13. > :57:15.university? They are slippers. university? They are slippers.

:57:15. > :57:16.have pride of place in my home. have pride of place in my home.

:57:16. > :57:17.have pride of place in my home. have pride of place in my home.

:57:17. > :57:17.This is the first time they have This is the first time they have

:57:18. > :57:19.This is the first time they have seen the light of day since

:57:19. > :57:21.seen the light of day since seen the light of day since

:57:21. > :57:24.university. Where did you get them university. Where did you get them

:57:24. > :57:26.university. Where did you get them from? I cannot remember. They had

:57:26. > :57:32.from? I cannot remember. They had from? I cannot remember. They had

:57:32. > :57:34.from? I cannot remember. They had the very old Tory logo on. And they

:57:34. > :57:35.the very old Tory logo on. And they the very old Tory logo on. And they

:57:35. > :57:37.are from Spitting Image. I love are from Spitting Image. I love

:57:37. > :57:39.are from Spitting Image. I love are from Spitting Image. I love

:57:39. > :57:40.them. Being a Tory student, I could them. Being a Tory student, I could

:57:40. > :57:41.them. Being a Tory student, I could not resist. They are representative

:57:41. > :57:44.not resist. They are representative not resist. They are representative

:57:44. > :57:48.of people who are downtrodden. of people who are downtrodden.

:57:48. > :57:50.of people who are downtrodden. good! Alan Johnson, what would your

:57:50. > :57:51.good! Alan Johnson, what would your good! Alan Johnson, what would your

:57:51. > :57:55.sartorial climax be? Look at these sartorial climax be? Look at these

:57:55. > :57:57.sartorial climax be? Look at these and never vote Lib Dem or

:57:57. > :58:00.and never vote Lib Dem or Conservative. They shouldn't be

:58:00. > :58:02.Conservative. They shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Government.

:58:02. > :58:03.allowed anywhere near Government. allowed anywhere near Government.

:58:04. > :58:05.Address the way high at always Address the way high at always

:58:05. > :58:06.Address the way high at always Address the way high at always

:58:06. > :58:07.dressed. These two, if I was to dressed. These two, if I was to

:58:07. > :58:09.dressed. These two, if I was to pick their address apart, it would

:58:09. > :58:10.pick their address apart, it would pick their address apart, it would

:58:10. > :58:13.pick their address apart, it would take me hours. Will you take them

:58:13. > :58:14.take me hours. Will you take them take me hours. Will you take them

:58:14. > :58:17.shopping? I will, yes. Small feet shopping? I will, yes. Small feet

:58:17. > :58:18.shopping? I will, yes. Small feet on a big budget. By drawing

:58:18. > :58:19.on a big budget. By drawing on a big budget. By drawing

:58:19. > :58:21.attention to this, I am most attention to this, I am most

:58:21. > :58:22.attention to this, I am most grateful because I would like to

:58:22. > :58:22.grateful because I would like to grateful because I would like to

:58:22. > :58:25.save following what Roberts said save following what Roberts said

:58:25. > :58:26.save following what Roberts said earlier, we should raise the tax

:58:26. > :58:27.earlier, we should raise the tax earlier, we should raise the tax

:58:27. > :58:29.earlier, we should raise the tax threshold and not bring in the 10

:58:29. > :58:30.pence one. pence one.

:58:30. > :58:31.pence one. pence one.

:58:31. > :58:32.There's just time before we go to There's just time before we go to

:58:32. > :58:32.There's just time before we go to There's just time before we go to

:58:32. > :58:33.find out the answer to our quiz. find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:33. > :58:34.find out the answer to our quiz. find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:34. > :58:35.The question was which of these is The question was which of these is

:58:35. > :58:36.the odd one out? the odd one out?

:58:36. > :58:37.the odd one out? The bedroom tax, the spare room

:58:37. > :58:38.The bedroom tax, the spare room The bedroom tax, the spare room

:58:38. > :58:39.subsidy, the study surcharge or subsidy, the study surcharge or

:58:39. > :58:39.social housing under-occupancy social housing under-occupancy

:58:39. > :58:40.social housing under-occupancy policy. So, Alan, what's the

:58:40. > :58:41.correct answer? correct answer?

:58:41. > :58:43.correct answer? The study surcharge, which we made

:58:43. > :58:44.The study surcharge, which we made The study surcharge, which we made

:58:44. > :58:48.The study surcharge, which we made up. The rest are all names for the

:58:48. > :58:49.up. The rest are all names for the up. The rest are all names for the

:58:49. > :58:50.up. The rest are all names for the same thing. You have one yourself a

:58:50. > :58:52.same thing. You have one yourself a same thing. You have one yourself a

:58:52. > :58:53.pair of Margaret Thatcher slippers. pair of Margaret Thatcher slippers.

:58:53. > :58:54.pair of Margaret Thatcher slippers. pair of Margaret Thatcher slippers.

:58:54. > :58:55.That's all for today. Thanks to our That's all for today. Thanks to our

:58:55. > :58:56.That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The One o'clock News is

:58:56. > :58:57.guests. The One o'clock News is guests. The One o'clock News is

:58:57. > :58:58.guests. The One o'clock News is starting over on BBC One now. And

:58:58. > :58:58.starting over on BBC One now. And starting over on BBC One now. And

:58:58. > :58:59.starting over on BBC One now. And I'll be holding on to Alan Johnson

:58:59. > :59:00.I'll be holding on to Alan Johnson I'll be holding on to Alan Johnson

:59:00. > :59:01.I'll be holding on to Alan Johnson as he is back with me tonight on

:59:01. > :59:02.as he is back with me tonight on as he is back with me tonight on

:59:02. > :59:03.as he is back with me tonight on BBC One for This Week, when I'll

:59:03. > :59:04.BBC One for This Week, when I'll BBC One for This Week, when I'll

:59:04. > :59:05.also have the Cheeky Girls speaking also have the Cheeky Girls speaking

:59:05. > :59:07.also have the Cheeky Girls speaking also have the Cheeky Girls speaking

:59:07. > :59:08.up for Romania, as we talk more up for Romania, as we talk more

:59:08. > :59:09.immigration. Victoria Derbyshire immigration. Victoria Derbyshire

:59:09. > :59:10.immigration. Victoria Derbyshire will look back on the political

:59:10. > :59:11.will look back on the political will look back on the political

:59:11. > :59:12.week and Nigel Kennedy may have week and Nigel Kennedy may have