:00:44. > :00:47.Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Michael Gove calls
:00:47. > :00:53.for a longer school days and Shorter's school holidays. The
:00:53. > :00:57.unions do not like it. Will it be good for our kids? After Thatcher,
:00:57. > :01:01.the politicians are back on the election trail, with David Cameron
:01:01. > :01:05.launching the campaign for the local elections. We will test his
:01:05. > :01:09.pitch with the Tory vice-chairman. There is a big election for the
:01:09. > :01:14.smaller parties. We will ask the Green Party whether their status as
:01:14. > :01:23.the protest party of choice can survive the challenge from UKIP.
:01:23. > :01:27.Remember this? British Gas shares, in November. We reflect on the
:01:28. > :01:37.heady days of privatisation. We will ask if there is any more
:01:38. > :01:39.
:01:39. > :01:43.All that coming up. With us for the first half of the show, two
:01:43. > :01:48.political panellists who were aged six and four respectively when Mrs
:01:48. > :01:56.Thatcher left office. You can decide which is which. We could
:01:56. > :01:59.have a competition. I am talking about Owen Jones and Isabel Hardman.
:01:59. > :02:03.There has been dramatic developments this morning in the
:02:03. > :02:07.hunt for the terrorists behind the attack on the Boston Marathon.
:02:07. > :02:11.Overnight, a shooting at the Massachusetts Institute of
:02:11. > :02:15.Technology, one of the world's greatest universities, a police
:02:15. > :02:21.officer died. It was followed by a shoot-out in the Watertown area,
:02:21. > :02:27.just to the west of Boston, in which one of the two suspects was
:02:27. > :02:35.killed. The other is still on the run. Boston city itself and all the
:02:35. > :02:40.surrounding suburbs seem to be in lockdown. Public transport has been
:02:40. > :02:46.suspended. Residents have been told not to leave their homes. There are
:02:46. > :02:56.reports that the suspect are legal permanent residence of the United
:02:56. > :03:01.States, and intriguingly, of Chechnya in origin. -- Russian
:03:01. > :03:07.origin. The perpetrator went into a neighbourhood not far from here,
:03:08. > :03:13.there was an exchange of gunfire. Two suspects were in and S U V.
:03:13. > :03:20.During the course of that pursuit. Several -- during the course of the
:03:20. > :03:24.pursued, several improvised explosive device is were detonated.
:03:24. > :03:29.In the exchange of gunfire, we believe one of the suspect was
:03:29. > :03:38.struck and taken into custody. A second suspect was able to flee
:03:38. > :03:43.from the car. The police were after two suspect, one of them is dead,
:03:43. > :03:49.killed in the shoot-out, the other is still on the run. You can keep
:03:49. > :03:56.up-to-date with the events in the posterior on the BBC News Channel,
:03:56. > :04:01.and the One o'clock News. -- the Boston area. Michael Gault has been
:04:01. > :04:09.making headlines for a change, with the suggestion that the school
:04:09. > :04:19.holidays should be cut. -- Michael Gove. He said the structure of the
:04:19. > :04:45.
:04:45. > :04:50.school day was designed for an How has that gone down? Here is the
:04:50. > :04:56.deputy general secretary. We think the school day is long enough. We
:04:56. > :05:00.would like to see teachers released more or to concentrate on teaching
:05:00. > :05:04.in the classroom. Outside the school, we need more leisure
:05:04. > :05:09.activities for children, self directed activities. Those should
:05:09. > :05:15.be arranged in after-school clubs. We do not need to lengthen the
:05:15. > :05:20.school day. Many of the Eastern European systems are looking at the
:05:20. > :05:24.UK, saying they want more creativity. We do not think this at
:05:24. > :05:33.this fear that exists in some of the East Asian education systems is
:05:33. > :05:41.the right model. Michael Gove did not refer to East European systems,
:05:41. > :05:46.he was talking about East Asia. Isabel Hardman, to wrap the
:05:46. > :05:52.conference yesterday, as was I. Had this been trailed off was this
:05:52. > :05:55.planned? Was it a rush of blood to the head? Some academies already
:05:55. > :06:00.have longer days anyway, but one thing that is going to be very
:06:00. > :06:04.interesting, regardless of the right or wrong of land than in the
:06:05. > :06:10.school day, whether the unions would accept that, whether he is
:06:10. > :06:16.prepared to fight them, they are already threatening to strike on
:06:16. > :06:23.performance related pay, so this is not going to go down well. That is
:06:23. > :06:27.clear. Is he right to say the current school timetables are a
:06:27. > :06:33.product of the 19th century? problem with what he is saying is,
:06:33. > :06:42.where is the evidence? Anyone who knows teachers, friends of Teachers,
:06:42. > :06:45.the last thing teachers are is under worked. The last thing
:06:45. > :06:51.parents want is teachers who have not had proper holidays, not fresh
:06:51. > :06:56.to teach. In terms of the evidence, if we look abroad, look at Finland.
:06:56. > :07:02.Consistently at the top of the rankings internationally, they
:07:02. > :07:09.actually have much longer holidays than we have, shorter school days.
:07:09. > :07:14.It is that most of the time. That is true. It is not very sunny.
:07:14. > :07:17.does perform very well on the tables. It also does not have the
:07:17. > :07:23.sort of innovations he is introducing like three schools and
:07:23. > :07:29.academies. They do have a lot of -- lots of autonomy. There is, but
:07:29. > :07:37.they do not have selection, far fewer private education. If I live
:07:37. > :07:42.in the north of Finland, I can choose a comprehensive in the north
:07:42. > :07:46.of Helsinki, you can go anywhere. They have usually high professional
:07:46. > :07:50.standards. That is what we should be looking at because teachers are
:07:50. > :07:56.held in high esteem in Finland. One of the things that worries me is we
:07:56. > :08:00.do not want to put off the best and brightest. The evidence is the best
:08:00. > :08:05.and brightest, he claims there is issued increase in quality of the
:08:05. > :08:10.people going in. I was at dinner with a former Labour minister who
:08:10. > :08:14.was saying there is a large percentage of Oxbridge graduates
:08:14. > :08:20.applying for the teaching profession. Yes, and one of the
:08:20. > :08:25.things we can praise for that is the teacher first programme, which
:08:25. > :08:32.had an aggressive marketing campaign. It is for people who do
:08:32. > :08:38.not have long college-based training. The Education Minister
:08:38. > :08:44.spoke yesterday about devolution, three schools, if power is being
:08:44. > :08:49.devolved to these individual schools, should not be under this -
:08:49. > :08:53.- up to the school to determine the school day and school holiday?
:08:53. > :08:58.it is important Michael Gove does not dictate to them. He is giving
:08:58. > :09:02.them freedom and then he is saying they need shorter holidays. That is
:09:02. > :09:06.my worry. Imagine having a kid at high school and primary school and
:09:06. > :09:14.they have completely different holidays, that would cause chaos.
:09:14. > :09:22.There is a need for consistency. National standard. Absolutely. If
:09:22. > :09:27.you will. I will. Party-political came as something of a standstill
:09:27. > :09:35.after death. With a by-election on Wednesday, they are returning to
:09:35. > :09:39.the fray. The first, we will speak to the BBC's editor of political
:09:39. > :09:45.research, the man who knows everything about elections. That is
:09:45. > :09:51.why become too. Am I right in thinking the main point of these
:09:51. > :09:58.elections is that we will compare them with a very good Tory year,
:09:58. > :10:03.the Tories did very well last time. Exactly right, in 2009, I'd have
:10:03. > :10:11.the 27 counties coming up for election, the Conservatives won 26.
:10:11. > :10:16.-- but of the 27 counties. That was after nine years in opposition. In
:10:16. > :10:22.a sense, it is payback time. It is a much darker space for them to
:10:22. > :10:27.fight these elections. In the run- up to this, I assume we will hear a
:10:27. > :10:33.lot of Tory spend about losing seats, these will not be good
:10:33. > :10:37.results, and Labour saying they will not do that well. Absolutely
:10:37. > :10:42.right. They will set their own homework. There will be all that
:10:42. > :10:46.taking place. What will be important here, for the
:10:46. > :10:52.Conservatives particularly, is they have a long way to fall, given that
:10:52. > :10:59.spectacular triumph in 2009. They have the added burden of UKIP,
:10:59. > :11:06.which, four years ago, contested one in four seats, and I note
:11:07. > :11:11.fighting 75% of seats. -- now they are fighting. A lot of commentary
:11:11. > :11:16.makes the assumption that the Conservatives lose votes to the
:11:16. > :11:21.UKIP, but in Eastleigh, that was not necessarily the case. It will
:11:21. > :11:26.be interesting to see if they take votes from other parties. Yes, it
:11:26. > :11:30.is far too simple. They are disproportionately Conservative,
:11:30. > :11:37.but there are people they have taken from other parties, the Lib
:11:37. > :11:40.Dems, who were so long the party of opposition. If you work against the
:11:40. > :11:44.Establishment he would vote for them. Now they are part of that.
:11:44. > :11:47.Some of that board has gone to UKIP. They also take some Labour votes
:11:47. > :11:52.and some people there were so fed up with the party system they have
:11:52. > :11:55.not been voting. It is more complex but the reason the Conservatives
:11:55. > :12:02.are more worried than most is more of that leakage comes from them
:12:02. > :12:11.than anybody else. The Tories are on the defensive. Labour are on the
:12:11. > :12:17.ascendant. Where does that leave a party like the Green Party?
:12:17. > :12:24.difficulty. The Green Party, up until now, had a much bigger hit
:12:24. > :12:27.rates than the other small parties. People would talk about BNP, UKIP,
:12:27. > :12:31.but the Green Party were the ones that performed. The difficulty this
:12:31. > :12:38.time is UKIP are really the New Kids On the Block, they believe the
:12:38. > :12:48.forces with them. They have twice as many candidates, and they will
:12:48. > :12:50.
:12:50. > :12:53.not be eclipsed. Thank you very much. The fact that the UK
:12:53. > :12:58.Independence Party are standing in so many seats could have an impact
:12:58. > :13:01.on all the other parties, big and small. For the Green Party the
:13:01. > :13:06.danger is the protest vote that previously lent to them might faint
:13:06. > :13:11.-- might find its way to Nigel Farage. Are they worried? We will
:13:11. > :13:15.find out. Natalie Bennett joins us from Oxford. She has just launched
:13:15. > :13:20.the local election campaign. Welcome to the programme. Are you
:13:20. > :13:24.worried you will be eclipsed by UKIP? Absolutely not. We are
:13:24. > :13:30.confident we will have a strong showing in these elections. We are
:13:30. > :13:35.confident we will seek county councillors elected in Cornwall,
:13:35. > :13:40.and we are confident that in a number of the areas we will see an
:13:40. > :13:44.increase in representation. The party is growing fast in Bristol.
:13:44. > :13:48.Where is the evidence that people are concerned about green issues
:13:48. > :13:53.when the economy is stagnating, living standards are being squeezed,
:13:53. > :14:00.there's no growth, public spending is being cut? The European
:14:00. > :14:04.Parliament cannot even vote for the carbon trading system any more.
:14:04. > :14:09.I was saying in Oxford, we are speaking up for a different kind of
:14:09. > :14:13.economy, we're saying globalisation new liberalism has hit the limits,
:14:13. > :14:19.we need strong local economy is built around small businesses and
:14:19. > :14:23.shops, we need jobs that pay the living wage, that are secured, do
:14:23. > :14:29.not have zero our contracts, we are speaking up for all range of things.
:14:29. > :14:31.We are speaking against the cuts, we are speaking for services.
:14:31. > :14:39.not see you resonating with the public, who have other concerns at
:14:39. > :14:45.the moment. I think concerns about low-paid jobs, concerns about big
:14:45. > :14:50.supermarkets coming in and scooping out local High Street, leaving them
:14:50. > :14:54.without small businesses, they do resonate with voters. We find when
:14:54. > :15:00.we speak up, many councils are fighting to ensure people affected
:15:00. > :15:04.by the bedroom tax do not face eviction. They are issues that are
:15:05. > :15:09.pressing on lives today. Labour are taking that position as well.
:15:09. > :15:16.Unfortunately, they have not said they would abolish the bedroom tax.
:15:16. > :15:19.You will not have a chance do. will see what happens! I am happy
:15:19. > :15:26.to take any kind of bet you name on that that you will not be forming
:15:26. > :15:34.the next government of the country. Would you like a bed? Name your
:15:34. > :15:38.price. I would put a million pounds. Isabel Hardman will lend me alone.
:15:38. > :15:44.I will put a million pounds on the table that you will not be the next
:15:44. > :15:49.government of this country. afraid the underwriting does not
:15:50. > :15:54.stretch that far. Let me ask you about the citizen's income. It will
:15:54. > :16:01.be an unconditional payment made to everybody as a right of citizenship.
:16:01. > :16:05.How much would I get? It will start out on a basis of the jobseeker's
:16:05. > :16:12.allowance. The idea is the benefits system is hugely affected.
:16:12. > :16:16.Jobseeker's Allowance is �71 per week. Only �71? That is the
:16:16. > :16:22.starting point, then you can choose to do what ever work you would like
:16:22. > :16:30.on top of that. Everybody would get it? Indeed. The chairman of
:16:30. > :16:33.Barclays Bank would get �71? would get it back off them in tax.
:16:33. > :16:40.It is a situation where people on Jobseeker's Allowance, on other
:16:41. > :16:44.benefits payments, if they take a couple of hours' work, the benefits
:16:44. > :16:50.are thrown into chaos. This eliminates the problem of means-
:16:50. > :16:55.testing. We would have a situation where people are provided with
:16:55. > :16:59.basic support and it is up to them to build on that. I think with this,
:16:59. > :17:09.we will see lots of bad poetry but I do nothing that is the worst
:17:09. > :17:20.
:17:20. > :17:28.People in poverty will have to get a lot more than that. What about
:17:28. > :17:35.the people who do not need it? idea is we believe in universal
:17:35. > :17:42.benefits. We would defend things like pensioner bus passes. Even for
:17:42. > :17:47.the Duchess of Buccleuch? Yes, and we would have a tax system which
:17:47. > :17:51.would recover it from the wealthy. We need to ensure it multinational
:17:51. > :17:56.companies and wealthy individuals pay their fair share of taxes.
:17:56. > :18:04.would get unemployment benefit. This would replace unemployment
:18:04. > :18:10.benefit. I am not any better off if I am unemployed? I thought you were
:18:10. > :18:14.supporting the poor and the disadvantaged. If we form the next
:18:14. > :18:21.Government we would introduce that, but we are looking at the moment
:18:21. > :18:26.more directly at looking at making the minimum wage a living wage. We
:18:26. > :18:30.want to see many more councils being living wage employers where
:18:30. > :18:35.all of their contractors are paid at least a living wage, which is
:18:35. > :18:41.more than a pound a week more than the national minimum wage, which is
:18:41. > :18:47.inadequate. What is a good result for you? We are confident we are
:18:47. > :18:52.going to see an increase in our numbers. We have got 138
:18:52. > :18:59.councillors and I am confident that will be growing. What is your
:18:59. > :19:04.target? We hope we want to hit double figures in growth. You are
:19:04. > :19:12.in double figures if you have got over 100. I was talking about the
:19:12. > :19:15.increase. A so you are hoping for 11. I said approaching that. This
:19:15. > :19:20.is the first time these elections have been held independently of
:19:20. > :19:24.other elections for many years. We are in a situation where many
:19:24. > :19:29.people are feeling dissatisfied with the three largest parties and
:19:29. > :19:33.we think our model of strong local economies, decent jobs and decent
:19:33. > :19:40.services for the people who meet them will have some resonance with
:19:40. > :19:44.the electorate. Natalie Bennett, thank you for joining us.
:19:44. > :19:49.These elections are expected to be a significant challenge for the
:19:49. > :19:55.Conservatives. David Cameron has been lodging the party's campaign
:19:55. > :19:59.and this morning he made a speech in Warwickshire. If you want good
:20:00. > :20:05.Government that costs less, vote conservative. If you want waste and
:20:05. > :20:09.propaganda, vote Labour. Do not let Labour do to your council what they
:20:09. > :20:17.did to our country. Let that be our message in the run-up to these
:20:17. > :20:22.elections. We I joined by Bob Neill, vice-chairman of the Conservative
:20:22. > :20:25.party responsible for local Government. Let's start the process
:20:25. > :20:34.of downgrading our expectations. How many seats are you going to
:20:34. > :20:42.lose? I think the truth is this is going to be a tough call for us and
:20:42. > :20:48.I am not going to pretend otherwise. How bad? I am not going to put
:20:48. > :20:52.numerical figures on it, because the only thing Natalie said that I
:20:52. > :20:55.agreed with is we are fighting these elections separately from
:20:55. > :21:00.their general elections and that will affect turnout and that can
:21:00. > :21:05.make a big difference. We are starting from almost a record high
:21:05. > :21:08.base and it will be very tough to defend all those seats, despite
:21:09. > :21:14.good work at the Conservative councils. One unnamed Cabinet
:21:14. > :21:18.minister says terrible would be a great result for us. I am not going
:21:18. > :21:25.to put it in those towns. At the time these elections happened four
:21:25. > :21:32.years ago the Labour Party was 11% behind as in the polls. Most of the
:21:32. > :21:37.polls which suggest that that position is reversed. You would
:21:37. > :21:42.expect something like that to show up in the election figures.
:21:42. > :21:49.addition to that you have got UKIP to worry about. We have and what we
:21:50. > :21:55.can say is firstly, splitting the vote in any election because you
:21:56. > :21:59.want a firmer line on things like our relationship with Europe,
:21:59. > :22:04.letting in Labour and the Lib Dems is cutting off your nose to spite
:22:04. > :22:10.your face. They are all across the south of England and that is where
:22:10. > :22:17.your seats are. They only fought last time in 2009 and they only
:22:17. > :22:24.fought in 24% of seats. They are now in 73% of seats. You are now in
:22:24. > :22:29.real trouble. You will be whacked by Labour and whacked by UKIP.
:22:29. > :22:35.is interesting. Nigel Farage was going around early on boasting that
:22:35. > :22:40.he was going to fight over 2000 seats. It never happened in reality,
:22:40. > :22:46.like a lot of his boasting. We had a council by-election last night in
:22:46. > :22:51.the south of England in Sussex which the Conservatives won with a
:22:51. > :22:54.very big increase. On the previous occasion UKIP had a candidate who
:22:54. > :23:00.got a very respectable score and they could not find a candidate for
:23:00. > :23:06.last night. John Major used to tell me about all the local council by-
:23:06. > :23:12.elections when the Poles were bad for him in 1995. Could you remind
:23:12. > :23:19.be what the election result was in 1997? Absolutely, and that is why I
:23:19. > :23:25.am realistic about not said in too much store by it opinion polls.
:23:25. > :23:30.was not a good guide for what happened to John Major. You are
:23:30. > :23:33.saying we are in trouble in the south of England with UKIP, but I
:23:33. > :23:36.am saying in this by-election they could not find a candidate,
:23:36. > :23:43.although of course we take the fact they are fighting more seats
:23:43. > :23:47.seriously. A you want to reduce Labour's expectations. I do not
:23:47. > :23:53.want to agree with the Conservatives too much, but 2009
:23:53. > :23:58.was the fag end of Gordon Brown's Premiership. Labour got devastated.
:23:58. > :24:03.Labour themselves are spinning their own figures and say they are
:24:03. > :24:09.going to win only around 200 extra seats, but that would be a disaster.
:24:09. > :24:17.They need to get about 500. That is more likely what they will get. It
:24:17. > :24:21.is only two years until a general election. The problem with UKIP is
:24:21. > :24:27.interesting. The Green Party have got these great strongholds like
:24:27. > :24:32.Oxford and Brighton and Norwich. UKIP do not have that, they are
:24:32. > :24:36.sparsely distributed. There is no point getting 50% consistently in
:24:36. > :24:40.opinion polls and less that is evenly everywhere. Otherwise they
:24:41. > :24:46.will not pick up the seats. In the European elections they did very
:24:46. > :24:53.well, but I would be surprised if they did as well as Nigel Farage
:24:53. > :25:00.says. But Labour have the Conservatives coming down from the
:25:00. > :25:04.top and UKIP coming up from the bottom. The idea of Labour's
:25:04. > :25:08.southern discomfort is a phrase that is being used. Labour is going
:25:08. > :25:12.on a mission to win seats in the south, and if they do not succeed
:25:12. > :25:18.like they did in Eastleigh, that is something you will hear a lot about
:25:18. > :25:22.from the Tories. Your election broadcast says council tax has
:25:22. > :25:27.fallen by 10% in real terms because this Government has helped fees the
:25:27. > :25:32.council tax. You could be forgiven for thinking that everybody's
:25:32. > :25:37.council tax has fallen, not risen this year, but that is not true.
:25:37. > :25:43.The majority have taken up the council tax freeze and we are in a
:25:43. > :25:48.third year. It is accumulating. This is misleading, it is not a cut
:25:48. > :25:53.of 10%. If you look across the period since we have had the
:25:53. > :25:58.council tax regime in place, it is a proper figure. In some cases the
:25:58. > :26:03.councils have not frozen, but the majority is have and that includes
:26:03. > :26:08.some of the councils that have an election. Why should people vote
:26:08. > :26:13.for the Conservative councils that have ignored you freeze? 10 of them
:26:13. > :26:23.have increased the council tax. seven out of 10 have frozen the
:26:23. > :26:23.
:26:23. > :26:27.council tax. But they may not boat for three out of 10. The council
:26:27. > :26:31.tax doubled under the Labour Government and it makes a big
:26:31. > :26:35.difference to people on modest incomes in particular. It is a
:26:35. > :26:40.larger percentage of their cost of living, so that is an achievement.
:26:40. > :26:47.But we are doing that at the same time as we are protecting money
:26:47. > :26:53.that goes on frontline services will stop what are the figures? I
:26:53. > :26:58.am not going to get into the figures came, we are all quarters
:26:58. > :27:03.about the opinion polls, my job is to make sure we fight for every
:27:03. > :27:12.seat recant. If David Cameron does badly with these results and Labour
:27:12. > :27:19.wins even more, it is yet another dream beat -- drumbeat in the
:27:19. > :27:25.background among the Tories who are and habit. Cameron's enemies have
:27:25. > :27:30.set him up for a higher threshold in success. One of the tests is the
:27:30. > :27:35.effect game marriage has had on the party grassroots. This is shire
:27:35. > :27:41.England where people may have been upset by the policy. MPs who are
:27:41. > :27:45.campaigning in these elections if they see the team going around
:27:46. > :27:52.knocking on doors as the mayor's, they will blame that on a marriage.
:27:52. > :28:01.If you have ever read a map, or bought a house, or posted a letter
:28:01. > :28:05.or enriched uranium one, you have a mundane, but dangers like. All of
:28:05. > :28:10.these things may well soon be provided by the private sector.
:28:10. > :28:15.This Government is looking at another wave of privatisations.
:28:15. > :28:19.Giles has been looking at how a certain Prime Minister made a once
:28:19. > :28:24.controversial idea mainstream. On entering Downing Street, Mrs
:28:24. > :28:29.Thatcher looked at the nation's assets and had a plan. It was
:28:29. > :28:34.radical and eventually had to be convinced it could be done.
:28:34. > :28:37.started making a case for privatisation in the 1970s and to
:28:37. > :28:43.kick to Margaret Thatcher's opposition leader and she said, I
:28:43. > :28:47.am interested, but they will not let me do it. Prior to that it was
:28:47. > :28:54.bitterly contested and it was thought to be whacky. Emboldened,
:28:54. > :29:00.the whacky became policy. British Telecom was sold, British Steel
:29:00. > :29:03.offered 450 million shares and the public applied for 1 billion.
:29:03. > :29:08.Jaguar was oversubscribed and there were queues around the block for
:29:08. > :29:13.Rolls Royce. The sake of water companies and rail networks was
:29:13. > :29:19.more controversial. The sale of British Rail took off and so did
:29:19. > :29:23.pick airports Authority. And then there was Sid. These days,
:29:23. > :29:27.privatisation is something that governments do. Even this
:29:27. > :29:33.Government is looking at privatising the Royal Mint which
:29:34. > :29:38.has been National since 800 AD. The Royal Mail, the Land Registry and
:29:38. > :29:42.the Ordnance Survey, part of the MoD. The opposition is unlikely to
:29:42. > :29:48.oppose any of this, indeed if it had been in Government, it would
:29:48. > :29:53.have had to look at selling the same things. It is driven both by
:29:53. > :29:57.cash and the Duke that these would be better functioning as businesses
:29:57. > :30:02.within the private sector. But not everyone likes the idea of
:30:02. > :30:07.privatisation. Look at the public reaction to the proposed forestry
:30:07. > :30:13.sell off and the 4G network did not bring in the cash expected. What do
:30:13. > :30:16.you get rid of when you want nothing left to sell? There is no
:30:16. > :30:24.danger of that because there has been a huge increase in the number
:30:24. > :30:28.of things at the state owns, starting with the banks. How you do
:30:28. > :30:33.that and when you do that and what the framework is is going to be a
:30:33. > :30:43.big issue for a Government of whatever party. When that time
:30:43. > :30:50.
:30:50. > :30:54.comes, will somebody please tell You are going to privatise Ordnance
:30:54. > :30:58.Survey. Why bother? It is falling through the logic, but so much of
:30:58. > :31:07.it has been done already. It is partly why David Cameron was right,
:31:07. > :31:11.she has shifted the terms of debate. I am suing for defamation. She has
:31:11. > :31:16.shifted the terms of trade, it is regarded as mainstream. You have
:31:16. > :31:23.done it. Don't you need to move on? What is the point of privatising
:31:23. > :31:28.Ordnance Survey? How much will you get for it? I do not imagine it
:31:28. > :31:38.will break the bank. A lot of these things work better in the private
:31:38. > :31:41.
:31:41. > :31:49.sector. Have you tried to use Apple Maps? That is the private sector.
:31:49. > :31:54.Think about how many things to operate better, gas and utility. It
:31:54. > :32:01.is a question of what is logically available. Owen Jones, what bits
:32:01. > :32:05.were wrongly privatised? Should British Telecom be renationalise?
:32:05. > :32:12.The old form of nationalisation in to do by the post-war Labour
:32:12. > :32:16.governments were responsive, I would not support that, the sort I
:32:16. > :32:21.would support his democratic ownership. If we take the railways
:32:22. > :32:25.back into public ownership, I do not want to go back to British Rail,
:32:25. > :32:31.I want representatives of passengers and workers on the board
:32:31. > :32:40.to run the sector in the interests of people, rather than that model.
:32:40. > :32:45.Should Jaguar be renationalise? key point, this is what David
:32:45. > :32:50.Cameron was saying, the idea that people support these huge
:32:50. > :32:55.privatisation plans just is not true. What is the answer to my
:32:55. > :33:00.question? Should Jaguar be taken back into state ownership? Nobody
:33:00. > :33:03.is demanding Jaguar gets renationalise. At the time, what I
:33:03. > :33:07.would have argued for... I do not care about the time because you
:33:07. > :33:14.were not around. Should Rolls-Royce be taken back into public
:33:14. > :33:19.ownership? I am not going to call now for the renationalisation of
:33:19. > :33:24.Rolls-Royce or Jaguar. What about your socialist roots? I would like
:33:24. > :33:30.to start with the main utilities, 61% of people according to a poll
:33:30. > :33:34.yesterday, just a bonus point out of the water, 61% of people thought
:33:34. > :33:38.gas and energy and water would be better run in the public sector. I
:33:38. > :33:43.would like to start with those main utilities. It does not make any
:33:43. > :33:49.sense, they are a natural monopoly. In a sense, that is where the
:33:49. > :33:52.debate is moving. It is not about privatising Ordnance Survey,
:33:52. > :33:58.privatisation is probably not to have worked were there was
:33:58. > :34:01.competition in the market already. It has been more problematic we you
:34:01. > :34:05.have been privatising natural monopoly. The point that Owen Jones
:34:05. > :34:10.makes about the railways, the utility providers, owes a markets
:34:10. > :34:15.was not much competition, the government is involved, so the
:34:15. > :34:22.railways was a very statist privatisation. It created natural
:34:22. > :34:26.monopolies. Even Conservative voters want to see it renationalise.
:34:26. > :34:32.I am not Jaguar. Win will start with railways then Jaguar. Come in
:34:32. > :34:39.up, we have a look at European politics. Now it is time to say
:34:39. > :34:43.goodbye to her two guests, and to Bob Neill as well. It has been a
:34:43. > :34:47.busy week for members of the European Parliament, meeting in
:34:47. > :34:57.Strasbourg to debate issues, grill senior officials, and do their
:34:57. > :34:59.
:34:59. > :35:03.expenses. Here is our guide to the You might not know it, but Croatia
:35:04. > :35:09.joins the European Union in July. This week, they voted for their
:35:09. > :35:17.first ever European politicians, 12 of them. Turnout was 27%, one of
:35:17. > :35:19.the lowest in any election. The Commissioner for budgets met any
:35:19. > :35:23.Sabah Usmani, her sons Sohaib, Rayyan, Muneeb and daughter Hira to
:35:23. > :35:33.discuss the budget up to 2020, and the view that there is many extra
:35:33. > :35:40.billions of Euros needed. Politicians have planned to open up
:35:40. > :35:50.airports to competition, needing to operate with three grown providers.
:35:50. > :36:04.
:36:05. > :36:12.Difficult new rules on the amount For the next 30 minutes I am joined
:36:12. > :36:16.by Timothy Kirkhope and Glenys Wilmott. We will look at one of
:36:16. > :36:26.those stories, the vote on new banking rules, including the Caporn
:36:26. > :36:30.banker bonuses. -- cap on. By water authority does the European Union
:36:30. > :36:35.take the right to limit salaries? Is to was not just about bankers
:36:35. > :36:41.bonuses, -- this was not just about bankers bonuses, it was a range of
:36:41. > :36:46.measures to stop casino capitalism. It makes sure there is enough
:36:46. > :36:51.liquidity to deal with crisis. understand that, regulation of the
:36:51. > :36:56.banking system, but what gives you the right to determine how much
:36:56. > :37:03.somebody's bonus should be? George Osborne had a chance to deal with
:37:03. > :37:08.it and he did not. People across Europe feel this is ridiculous,
:37:08. > :37:13.getting more than twice your salary in a bonus. Most people would like
:37:13. > :37:18.to have doubled their salary as a bonus at the end of the year.
:37:18. > :37:23.prescriptive approach from Europe is an agreeable. We agree that
:37:23. > :37:29.making banks have enough capital is good. This is a crazy issue. It
:37:29. > :37:35.should not be done in this way. We hope the Bank will show sensitivity
:37:35. > :37:39.in future bearing in mind what has happened, -- the banks. Doing this
:37:39. > :37:44.in a prescriptive way from Brussels seems to last to be unacceptable.
:37:44. > :37:50.Most people would say they would not mind having their bonus limited
:37:50. > :37:54.to 100% of their salary because it is nothing like that. The point is
:37:54. > :37:59.if you do this, you simply open up the whole idea of renumeration from
:37:59. > :38:03.other sources. Goodness knows what mess you get into. It is poking
:38:03. > :38:10.into something in a specific manner. We know what we want, we want
:38:10. > :38:15.restraint. What we do not want his this authoritarianism. It led to
:38:15. > :38:22.recklessness, and that was the point. People were chasing big
:38:22. > :38:28.bonuses and did not take care. they will just increase salaries.
:38:28. > :38:32.It is precise we what will happen. If you ask those people, they would
:38:32. > :38:42.say this is the right thing to do. What people were disgusted at the
:38:42. > :38:42.
:38:42. > :38:46.way the banks handled this. Why not 50%? Can I am move on? -- can I
:38:46. > :38:53.move on? Should businesses be forced to pay for polluting the
:38:53. > :38:58.atmosphere? A voter in the EU has let the main mechanism going to
:38:58. > :39:03.disarray. MEPs voted down a proposal to delay an option of
:39:03. > :39:08.polluter permits. It was said to be necessary to increase the cost and
:39:08. > :39:12.encourage industry to reduce emissions.
:39:12. > :39:16.Cutting the level of carbon emissions has been the driving
:39:16. > :39:22.force behind the European union's battle against global warming. In
:39:22. > :39:28.order to hit a 20% reduction target by 2020, they came up with the idea
:39:28. > :39:33.of a carbon market. Great in theory, but after eight years the project
:39:33. > :39:39.is at risk of going up in smoke. Some believe it was doomed from the
:39:39. > :39:44.start. It is time to put the impetus into alternative policies.
:39:44. > :39:54.That is what investors want to see. There are many other things you
:39:54. > :39:54.
:39:54. > :39:58.could be doing. The trading system was set up in 2005, putting a price
:39:59. > :40:06.on carbon, and letting the industry decide whether to clean up their
:40:06. > :40:13.act. The problem is the price of carbon has slumped. With it, there
:40:13. > :40:17.is no incentive for companies to invest in cleaner technology. This
:40:17. > :40:21.German steelworks company decided to invest heavily in green
:40:21. > :40:27.technology. As a result they have cut their emissions by 25% since
:40:27. > :40:30.2005. They are leading the way in the electric steelmaking industry.
:40:30. > :40:35.We are have been implementing a very strict discipline about carbon
:40:35. > :40:42.conception. We are still on the market, producing steel, making
:40:42. > :40:46.profits. It is difficult to make a profit in this industry. It is one
:40:46. > :40:50.of the success stories but it has not been cheap, particularly in the
:40:50. > :40:59.recession, competing against American and Chinese companies who
:40:59. > :41:04.do not operate in the car market. - carbon market. In order to fix it,
:41:04. > :41:09.they proposed intervening. They called on M8 -- called on MEPs to
:41:10. > :41:14.back the plan. I am really worried and uncertain about what the future
:41:14. > :41:21.holds. This board might suggest that Europe is turning its back on
:41:21. > :41:26.global warming, and no longer cares case, we are cutting our own
:41:26. > :41:33.throats. The fears that an increase in the carbon price might boost
:41:33. > :41:36.energy costs resulted in MEPs voting against the proposal.
:41:36. > :41:41.voted against because this is a short-term solution that is not
:41:41. > :41:49.really a solution. There are problems but they need structural
:41:49. > :41:55.changes. More than 50% of the Conservative MEPs voted against the
:41:55. > :41:59.plan, to howls of hypocrisy. The Liberal Democrats claimed David
:41:59. > :42:06.Cameron claimed -- David Cameron's claim to care about the environment
:42:06. > :42:14.is now a distant memory. The European carbon trading system has
:42:14. > :42:18.not really worked. The price collapsed. This board has been the
:42:19. > :42:28.nail in the coffin. -- this board. There is no doubt it needs reform
:42:29. > :42:33.
:42:33. > :42:37.to. The British Government was trying to reform it. I hope it is
:42:37. > :42:41.not over because we need to encourage businesses to get into
:42:41. > :42:48.new technology. British business is at a disadvantage because they have
:42:48. > :42:51.a minimum carbon price that other people across Europe do not.
:42:51. > :42:55.suggests the European Parliament, by voting the way it did, is in
:42:55. > :43:05.tune with the changing mood of Europe. This is a Europe in
:43:05. > :43:06.
:43:06. > :43:11.recession, 25 million unemployed, companies clearly closing down. The
:43:11. > :43:17.priority is jobs, growth, living standards, not some theoretical
:43:17. > :43:27.carbon price. We are also looking at imports, but that is another
:43:27. > :43:29.
:43:29. > :43:38.issue. This is something the British Government was lobbying for.
:43:38. > :43:44.Labour MEPs supported them. You did not. I was not rebelling. I
:43:44. > :43:53.followed the party whip. We did not agree with the Government on this.
:43:53. > :43:57.As you have not agreed on working- time directives. Urine a position
:43:57. > :44:07.where you are part of a party in power in Britain which is
:44:07. > :44:07.
:44:07. > :44:15.implementing unilateral carbon prices, and you get to vote against
:44:15. > :44:22.a much lower one in the European Parliament. We said the system
:44:22. > :44:31.needs reform. To reform it in the short term, refer it back for
:44:31. > :44:34.debate and discussion, and because the only reason we are where we are
:44:34. > :44:39.is because the economy is in a difficult state. That is why the
:44:39. > :44:48.price has fallen. The market we set up is no longer operating
:44:48. > :44:54.effectively. We need to look at it again and come up with a sensible
:44:54. > :45:03.approach. This Government is doing a lot. We're doing all kinds of
:45:03. > :45:08.things. Let's get to the position we find ourselves in in Europe.
:45:08. > :45:14.There is bipartisan support. You have got us in a position where
:45:14. > :45:24.there is no floor price in carbon. You have lumbered British Industry
:45:24. > :45:26.
:45:26. > :45:30.with a four place -- floor price of �30 per tonne. You come on to this
:45:30. > :45:35.show and talk about rebalancing the economy, manufacturing, getting
:45:35. > :45:39.away from services and financial industries, you have put an
:45:39. > :45:44.albatross around their neck. That is not true. The short-term fix
:45:44. > :45:48.would not have dealt with the underlying problems of the scheme.
:45:48. > :45:54.We have to look at the fundamentals of this. It would sound good, but
:45:54. > :45:59.it was not going to work. That is why we voted against it. My point
:45:59. > :46:05.is even if you reform the scheme, European companies would be subject
:46:05. > :46:15.to a much lower floor price than British companies because you
:46:15. > :46:25.
:46:25. > :46:31.government volunteer a higher one The real marketplace competition is
:46:31. > :46:36.against China and India. Why did you not make the prices lower?
:46:36. > :46:40.European basis we have to have had something that works. It is not
:46:40. > :46:46.working in Britain, we have lumbered our companies are a higher
:46:47. > :46:51.cost of energy. What is next? have to make sure companies invest
:46:51. > :46:59.in new technology. I agree, the carbon price has dropped
:46:59. > :47:04.dramatically. Are we right to have our own �16 a tonne carbon fuel
:47:04. > :47:10.price? It would have been better if we had the support in the European
:47:10. > :47:16.Parliament. It is now going to rise to �30 a tonne, are we right to do
:47:16. > :47:20.that? It is difficult to predict things in terms of price. A excuse
:47:21. > :47:27.me, this is Government policy, this is an administered floor price to
:47:27. > :47:33.get it up to �30. It is a Government mandated, minimum price.
:47:34. > :47:38.The each Government has to take its own view. This it right? I can see
:47:38. > :47:44.no way that governments should not take the decisions that they wish.
:47:44. > :47:49.What was proposed by the commission was not going to work. As far as we
:47:49. > :47:54.were concerned, we wanted to have another look at it. The British one
:47:54. > :48:00.may well work. British companies are wrapping massive disadvantage
:48:00. > :48:06.to European competitors. We are not at the end of this at all. Maybe
:48:06. > :48:11.the interest will move on. I invite you both to read the statements of
:48:11. > :48:16.people representing industries in Teesside. Read the Financial Times
:48:16. > :48:21.this morning and the opinion comment. I think it is quite
:48:21. > :48:25.helpful. It is not really plugged into Teesside.
:48:25. > :48:31.The European Commission questioned George Osborne's planned tax relief
:48:31. > :48:36.for Britain's video-games industry. He announced a tax relief of 25%
:48:36. > :48:44.last year which is supposed to come into effect in April. The industry
:48:44. > :48:53.is big business. It is thought to be worth around �55 billion. The UK
:48:53. > :49:00.industry, says the tax break will help safeguard over 4500 jobs. It
:49:00. > :49:04.will boost the economy by �283 million. The European Commission
:49:04. > :49:14.says the plans will breach the rules over state aid and has now
:49:14. > :49:15.
:49:15. > :49:20.launched an inquiry. Is it game over? Let's go to Alyn Smith for
:49:20. > :49:25.the SNP. There is a huge chunk of this industry based in Scotland and
:49:25. > :49:31.it is going to turn over �1 billion a year. Why does it need a tax
:49:31. > :49:35.subsidy? This is precisely the question. Yes, these things need to
:49:35. > :49:39.be signed up within the rules of the single market, but our stance
:49:39. > :49:45.is that the European Commission is looking at this on too narrow a
:49:45. > :49:48.scale. We are not just competing with France or Germany, we are
:49:48. > :49:54.competing with Canada and America weather are federal and state
:49:54. > :49:57.incentives. We think the relief is necessary. We are seeing a number
:49:57. > :50:01.of manufacturers are increasingly finishing their product in the
:50:01. > :50:05.States and Canada in order to take advantage of those incentives. The
:50:05. > :50:09.French have forked out a similar scheme that this would generate an
:50:09. > :50:13.extra amount of money and would generate money in Scotland and the
:50:13. > :50:21.UK and we want to see this go forward. It has been a long time
:50:21. > :50:24.coming. The video games industry in Britain should have tax relief
:50:24. > :50:30.because its competitors outside the European Union have generous tax
:50:30. > :50:34.relief? Very generous tax relief in a number of cases. The Canadians
:50:34. > :50:39.have ploughed a great deal of strategically important money into
:50:39. > :50:44.this because they wanted to develop a Canadian games industry. Unless
:50:44. > :50:50.we get our act together, we will export high-skill, created jobs at
:50:50. > :50:53.a time when much of the creativity is Scottish, UK, European. We need
:50:53. > :50:57.to make sure the Government is lining up behind those industries
:50:57. > :51:02.and this is hugely important for the development of this in the
:51:02. > :51:07.street and in the future. We need to maintain the Crucible with an
:51:07. > :51:11.Scotland, the UK and Europe to maintain its competitive advantage.
:51:11. > :51:16.The European Commission can look into this, but this needs to go
:51:16. > :51:20.ahead and the sooner the better able stock the danger is that in
:51:20. > :51:23.the event and industry survives or fails knock on the basis of the
:51:23. > :51:29.quality of its products or brainpower and innovation of its
:51:29. > :51:34.people, but simply by who is given the biggest tax breaks? That is a
:51:34. > :51:40.risk to be sure, but what is created need not last in perpetuity.
:51:40. > :51:43.Our stance is the UK games industry is at a competitive disadvantage
:51:43. > :51:47.internationally in physical terms. A number of other governments are
:51:47. > :51:51.specifically buying into this industry and once it is there, it
:51:51. > :51:57.will stay there. We want to make sure we do not lose these jobs or
:51:57. > :52:00.this industry and we are backing the Chancellor's proposals. The
:52:00. > :52:05.European Commission can look into this by all means, but the French
:52:05. > :52:10.have calculated in a similar scheme that this generates money and jobs,
:52:10. > :52:14.which can only be good for all of us. I will be knocking on the
:52:15. > :52:19.European commission's door to protect and promote these plans.
:52:19. > :52:24.Every vested interest always says it will generate more jobs and
:52:25. > :52:29.income. What should we tell the European Commission? This is
:52:29. > :52:35.something we are really good at, we are up there with world leaders.
:52:35. > :52:40.Shall we tell the European Commission to back off? We should
:52:41. > :52:46.have more flexible rules on state aid. That is our party's position.
:52:46. > :52:50.It is a reform we need in Europe. am nodding in agreement because
:52:50. > :52:54.when I was a minister in the UK I had something to do with this
:52:54. > :52:58.industry. We had been ahead of the world in technology, there are
:52:58. > :53:03.certain things about this country that we really can export and it is
:53:03. > :53:09.very good for Europe as a whole. Let's get on with it, let's get
:53:09. > :53:13.some help and get this industry develop even more. Does the
:53:13. > :53:17.European Commission have any flexibility? As I understand it,
:53:17. > :53:23.its job is to ensure a level playing field within the European
:53:23. > :53:29.Union, rather than take into account non-European Union tax
:53:29. > :53:33.regimes. Indeed, there is flexibility and the EMS would
:53:33. > :53:41.justify the means and there are internal rules that we need to make
:53:41. > :53:45.sure are fixed. That is a discussion the commission wants to
:53:45. > :53:49.have and we can have, but there is a bigger picture where we need to
:53:49. > :53:55.be conscious that this is a very mobile and global industry and
:53:55. > :53:58.market. We need to get our act together. I want to see the
:53:58. > :54:05.Scottish Government to incentivise the industry to grow in Scotland.
:54:05. > :54:09.That is not where we are now, so I back the UK proposals. If the
:54:09. > :54:15.commission wants to look into this, by all means, but we need to
:54:15. > :54:20.protect and promote his industry. What is your favourite game?
:54:20. > :54:28.enjoy stealing a car and joyriding around town. Where are you from?
:54:28. > :54:35.Glasgow? Originally Glasgow. That is a great city, I was at
:54:35. > :54:41.university there. The forerunner to today's European
:54:41. > :54:46.Union was the European stoat -- the European Coal and Steel Community,
:54:47. > :54:55.made into a treaty in 1951. Since then dozens more treaties have been
:54:55. > :55:05.signed into the EU. Where are all the treaties kept? Adam has been
:55:05. > :55:06.
:55:06. > :55:12.finding out. This is where they store the EU's
:55:12. > :55:18.sacred texts, the treaties, well, copies of them. The real ones are
:55:18. > :55:24.in Rome. Philip Evans prepares them for a signing and looks after them
:55:24. > :55:29.in a climate controlled strongroom. The first surprise is they do not
:55:29. > :55:38.come in books, but in big boxes. This is the Croatian Accession
:55:38. > :55:44.Treaty. It is quite a tome. What you have here is the treaty and the
:55:44. > :55:50.annexes, the primary law and the final act. All this here is
:55:50. > :55:53.Croatian. A treaty has to be agreed by every Prime Minister and
:55:53. > :55:59.President through a process called the Inter-governmental Conference.
:55:59. > :56:02.Once they are drafted they go through a process called toilettage
:56:02. > :56:08.or scrubbing where linguists support over every word. Then a
:56:08. > :56:14.chilly has to be ratified by every member state. Some are put to a
:56:14. > :56:19.referendum. Here is the one that started it all. The Treaty of Rome
:56:19. > :56:22.signed in 1957 by the six original member states. It sets out the idea
:56:22. > :56:30.of a common market and the principle of an ever closer union
:56:30. > :56:35.of the peoples of Europe. The UK did not join until much later. This
:56:35. > :56:40.way is an absolute ton. This is what Britain signed to join the
:56:40. > :56:46.European Community in 1973. And here is the Maastricht Treaty
:56:46. > :56:51.signed in 1992, which transformed the plain old European Community
:56:51. > :56:54.into a fully-fledged European Union. Each new treaty and Mensah the
:56:54. > :57:00.original Treaty of Rome, so if you want to be up-to-date about how the
:57:00. > :57:04.EU operates today, you need to read the Treaty of Lisbon, signed in
:57:04. > :57:10.2007. Some governments prefer getting their treaties in this
:57:10. > :57:17.format nowadays. The treaties are way the EU takes its great leaps
:57:17. > :57:21.forward, or backwards depending on your point of view. Our friend
:57:21. > :57:26.Philip also organises the signing ceremonies, giving him a ringside
:57:26. > :57:31.seat to history. One thing I have always try to ensure is there is a
:57:31. > :57:35.pen on the table that works. His parents get used more than you
:57:35. > :57:40.might think. The EU signs around 100 other types of official
:57:40. > :57:46.agreements every year. How a man with the treaties, Adam Fleming. Is
:57:46. > :57:51.there going to be another treaty to add to this? We have got more
:57:51. > :57:57.fiscal union, more banking union, which it lead to a new treaty?
:57:57. > :58:01.may well do, but it depends who you talk to it. At one time it was up
:58:01. > :58:10.we would do that, but now Angela Merkel says we want once again. Who
:58:10. > :58:13.knows? She is going to win again in September. When the Prime Minister
:58:14. > :58:22.has successfully renegotiated our position with Europe, we will need
:58:22. > :58:30.a new treaty. Should that not be if? My simplification of the treaty
:58:30. > :58:36.on the website is very much to the point. None of this GMB stuff from
:58:36. > :58:42.you. Do you think the European establishment is up for another
:58:42. > :58:48.treaty? No, not at the moment. We will be, but I think they will want
:58:48. > :58:53.it by that time we have negotiated. He is very optimistic. He is very