:00:46. > :00:50.Politics. It has not quite been the Battle of Bannockburn, the the SNP
:00:50. > :00:54.and Treasury spent this morning at war over the pound. George Osborne
:00:54. > :00:59.warned the Scottish Nationalists they would have to give up control
:00:59. > :01:03.of key elements of the economy to keep using the pound, should they
:01:03. > :01:08.gain independence. The SNP accused him of scaremongering.
:01:08. > :01:12.It is St George's Day, we will be looking at the English Democrats'
:01:12. > :01:16.local election campaign. She did not want to read it or know
:01:16. > :01:20.what people said about her. The authorised biography of Margaret
:01:20. > :01:24.Thatcher is published today. We will be speaking to its author, Charles
:01:24. > :01:28.Moore. Who says there is no important
:01:28. > :01:34.Parliamentary business going on? One MP wants a debate on the timing of
:01:34. > :01:36.the FA Cup Final! All that in the next hour. With this
:01:37. > :01:41.for the duration is Foreign Office Minister Baroness Warsi. Welcome to
:01:41. > :01:47.the programme. Let's talk about terror. Following
:01:47. > :01:51.the bombing in Boston last week, the Canadian authorities say they have
:01:51. > :01:55.foiled an Al-Qaeda supported terrorist attacks. In Madrid, the
:01:55. > :02:00.Spanish authorities say they have arrested two suspected members of
:02:00. > :02:06.Al-Qaeda who they claim have a similar profile to these suspects in
:02:06. > :02:12.the recent attacks in Boston. Our extra precautions being taken here?
:02:12. > :02:16.We are on a constant state of alert. We have a substantial threat. It is
:02:16. > :02:21.something we are constantly aware of. When situations around the
:02:21. > :02:26.world, such as Boston and Canada, happened, we become more aware of
:02:26. > :02:31.the threat and the necessary precautions are taken. On the basis
:02:31. > :02:35.of what you have said, that we are on constant alert, should be
:02:35. > :02:40.security services funding be cut further? I will not debate what may
:02:40. > :02:45.be the outcome of budgetary negotiations in the years to come...
:02:45. > :02:50.Would it be safe in the current state we are in? The security of our
:02:50. > :02:54.citizens will never be put at risk, whatever the economic climate. The
:02:54. > :02:59.security services direct tremendous job. We hear about the occasions,
:02:59. > :03:03.sadly, when things go wrong, but they are keeping us safe. I know
:03:03. > :03:07.from David Cameron all the way through the government, they will
:03:07. > :03:12.always make sure they are properly supported. That sounds like there
:03:12. > :03:16.will not be cuts. I will not in gauge in a discussion that might
:03:16. > :03:21.take part between colleagues and the Chancellor, but we will never put
:03:21. > :03:26.the security of citizens here or abroad at risk because of austerity.
:03:26. > :03:30.Do you think it is irresponsible of MI5 and MI6 to warn, as has been
:03:30. > :03:35.reported in the papers, that Great Britain would be vulnerable to a
:03:35. > :03:39.terrorist attack if security funding is cut? This is an ongoing thing
:03:39. > :03:43.which has happened for a number of weeks. Quite sadly, I think, it has
:03:43. > :03:47.been played out in the media. Different departments have to have
:03:47. > :03:51.these discussions with the Treasury at the relevant time is when these
:03:51. > :03:56.decisions are taken about budgets. I am sorry if that sounds like I am
:03:56. > :04:01.repeating myself, the reality is that both abroad and at home, the
:04:01. > :04:05.security services play an incredibly crucial and vital role which is
:04:05. > :04:09.hugely supported. Many public statements have been made by the
:04:09. > :04:15.Prime Minister, the Home Secretary, the Foreign Secretary, as to the
:04:15. > :04:21.value we place on their work. They will always be properly supported.
:04:21. > :04:25.You have Jewish diction, if you like, for affairs in Afghanistan --
:04:25. > :04:31.you have jurisdiction. Is around ready to take over responsibility?
:04:31. > :04:36.think so. I was in Helmand a few months ago and saw for myself how
:04:36. > :04:40.local policing was done by the local forces. More and more of the country
:04:40. > :04:49.is protected by Afghan National Security forces. We are still there
:04:49. > :04:53.in a training and support capacity. There lots of training -- there are
:04:53. > :04:57.lots of issues around the world. But up and down the country, you can see
:04:57. > :05:02.they are taking over the security of their country.
:05:02. > :05:05.Now it is time for our daily quiz. What entertainment is provided for
:05:05. > :05:12.members of the House of Lords when they have to stay for late-night
:05:12. > :05:20.votes? Is it burlesque dance classes, film screenings, open my
:05:20. > :05:24.comedy nights or stitch and bitch clubs? At the end of the show,
:05:24. > :05:30.hopefully side will give us the right answer.
:05:30. > :05:34.In 1707, Scotland and England merged their currencies. Will 2014 be the
:05:34. > :05:39.year it comes to an end? The UK Chancellor of the Exchequer warned
:05:39. > :05:43.this morning that it was unlikely that Scotland's 5 million citizens
:05:43. > :05:45.could keep the pound if they voted for independence. Speaking to
:05:45. > :05:50.Glasgow business leaders this morning, George Osborne said that
:05:50. > :05:53.Glasgow would face an uncertain financial future, with England,
:05:53. > :05:59.Wales and Northern Ireland are likely to want a currency zone with
:06:00. > :06:03.their newly divorced neighbours. He said it could -- one MP said a
:06:03. > :06:10.currency zone could work in the interests of all involved, but this
:06:10. > :06:12.is what George Osborne said. would 58 million citizens give away
:06:12. > :06:18.some of their sovereignty over monetary and potentially other
:06:18. > :06:23.economic policies to 5 million people in another state? Before the
:06:23. > :06:26.rest of the UK could ever agree to enter a formal currency union, any
:06:27. > :06:30.further you -- any further UK Chancellor of the Exchequer would
:06:30. > :06:35.have to provide a British people with a clear and compelling and said
:06:35. > :06:39.to the question of sovereignty. The SNP asserts that it would be in
:06:39. > :06:46.everyone's interest for an independent Scotland to keep the
:06:46. > :06:51.pound is part of a eurozone style sterling's own. But a report we are
:06:51. > :06:55.publishing today shows that is not the case. Let's stop speculating and
:06:55. > :07:01.look at the evidence. Would the rest of the UK family agreed to take that
:07:01. > :07:05.risk? Could a situation where an independent Scotland and the rest of
:07:05. > :07:10.the UK share the pound and the Bank of England be made to work?
:07:10. > :07:17.Frankly, it is unlikely. There is real -- real doubt about the and to
:07:17. > :07:21.these questions. In other words, the only way to be sure to keep the
:07:21. > :07:25.pound as the Scottish currency is to stay in the United Kingdom.
:07:25. > :07:31.We are now joined by the SNP Treasury spokesman at Westminster,
:07:31. > :07:41.Stewart Hosie, and the former Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling, who is
:07:41. > :07:44.
:07:44. > :07:52.in Edinburgh and is leading the BETTER together -- Better Together
:07:52. > :07:56.campaign. Was Scotland forced out of sterling,
:07:56. > :08:00.the additional business costs for businesses in Northern Ireland,
:08:00. > :08:03.Wales and England would be substantial. There is no need.
:08:03. > :08:09.Scotland brings a great deal to the currency table, there is a �40
:08:09. > :08:13.billion contribution in balancing trade terms with gas and oil. It
:08:13. > :08:16.would not make sense for George Osborne or Alistair Darling to run
:08:16. > :08:22.around England explaining why they wanted to shred the currency to make
:08:22. > :08:27.a political point? If you like the pound so much, why are you going for
:08:27. > :08:31.independence? The union is about more than currency, it is tax and
:08:31. > :08:36.spending decisions which every UK Chancellor takes on the behalf of
:08:36. > :08:39.Scotland. We think the big tax and spending decisions should be taken
:08:39. > :08:42.in Scotland on behalf of Scottish people to meet the needs of the
:08:42. > :08:49.Scottish people, while sharing a currency which make sense for
:08:49. > :08:52.everybody. Alistair Darling, can a currency union be made to work?
:08:52. > :08:59.things have to happen, you have to get the agreement of the other
:08:59. > :09:02.country to join it, that is not guaranteed, as we see. Secondly, you
:09:02. > :09:07.have to submit to something of a straitjacket, as we see in the
:09:07. > :09:12.Eurozone, where both parties agree on budget, tax, spending and so on.
:09:12. > :09:16.Thinking about it, the pound is the bedrock of our economy, it is a
:09:16. > :09:21.thing about jobs and pensions depend upon. What is becoming clear today
:09:21. > :09:26.is that despite the fact that the nationals have asserted there will
:09:26. > :09:30.be a currency union, they have not spoken to anyone else, they cannot
:09:30. > :09:35.guarantee it and they cannot guarantee the pound. That is the
:09:35. > :09:38.case if there is no currency union or you can't agreed the terms and
:09:38. > :09:43.conditions, you are driven back to one of two options, you either use
:09:43. > :09:46.the currency in the same way that Panama uses the US dollar, which
:09:46. > :09:51.would be ruinous for the Scottish financial services industry because
:09:51. > :09:53.you would have no central bank, or you are driven to issuing your own
:09:53. > :09:57.separate new Scottish currency in the most turbulent times we have
:09:57. > :10:02.ever seen, something I noticed that the Scottish finance minister, John
:10:02. > :10:09.Swinney, conspicuously failed to rule out twice this morning when
:10:09. > :10:13.asked about it. Nationalist policy is being made up on the hoof, rather
:10:13. > :10:18.like the European Union money said it was automatic, it is not true,
:10:18. > :10:22.they said we could rejoin NATO automatically, that is not true,
:10:22. > :10:27.they can't guarantee currency union. As we have heard from George
:10:27. > :10:31.Osborne, the rest of the UK does not sound like it wants it. I am sure
:10:31. > :10:35.that George Osborne and Alistair Darling will say these things to
:10:35. > :10:42.make it sound dreadfully difficult until we get to the referendum. At
:10:42. > :10:47.that point, if there is a yes vote calm minds will come together.
:10:47. > :10:52.Alistair Darling has described this as logical and desirable. He also
:10:52. > :10:56.said that currency is the bedrock, it is the bedrock of trade, which is
:10:56. > :11:01.why we want to keep it. We do not understand why Alistair would not
:11:01. > :11:07.want to be in that. You wanted to join the euro at some stage, now you
:11:07. > :11:11.don't, understandably, because it is in crisis, why do you want a new
:11:11. > :11:15.monetary union between Scotland and England and, if you like, replicate
:11:15. > :11:20.what has happened with the Eurozone and expect the UK to take on the
:11:20. > :11:26.risk without close political union? I have explained why it is in
:11:26. > :11:33.everyone's best interest. The idea that you have to have political
:11:33. > :11:37.union to have a currency union is not true. With Belgium and
:11:37. > :11:41.Luxembourg, it did not lead to political union, nor did it lead to
:11:41. > :11:47.tax harmonisation. Are you prepared to accept the constraints that would
:11:47. > :11:52.be put on new if you were part of the currency? Are you prepared to
:11:52. > :12:01.have your budget look that at Westminster before Holyrood?
:12:01. > :12:06.recognise that for a currency pact. But the stability pact would apply
:12:06. > :12:12.to both parts of the union, not just Scotland. There would have to be
:12:12. > :12:15.constraints to make sure that nothing got out of hand. Alistair
:12:15. > :12:20.Darling, it is clear the government tactic is to make this as difficult
:12:20. > :12:26.as possible because they don't want it, that is understandable. Can they
:12:26. > :12:32.stop it? Can the government say no? Two of course you can, for a
:12:32. > :12:37.currency union to work, both sides have to be willing partners. Stewart
:12:37. > :12:41.Hosie hit on the problem, both sides would have to agree that they moved
:12:41. > :12:45.to a situation where their budgets were approved by a foreign country,
:12:45. > :12:49.which is what they would be at the time. It is no wonder that the rest
:12:49. > :12:53.of the UK might say, we never voted for this, nobody asked us about it.
:12:53. > :12:58.Stewart Hosie says this is something that has been raised in the course
:12:58. > :13:04.of the campaign, he is asking us to take a massive gamble in believing
:13:04. > :13:06.that, firstly, there will be a currency union and, secondly, the
:13:06. > :13:11.terms and conditions would be acceptable to Scotland or the rest
:13:11. > :13:15.of the UK. You can't guarantee that. I believe that the pound is
:13:15. > :13:20.important for trade, I believe that the UK as a whole has done well and
:13:20. > :13:26.will continue to do well. That is so long as we stay part of the mighty
:13:26. > :13:30.kingdom, we are better and stronger together. If you choose to leave the
:13:30. > :13:34.UK there are consequences, the Nationalists are trying to hide that
:13:34. > :13:41.from people in Scotland and the rest of the UK because they cannot
:13:41. > :13:46.guarantee. Alistair Darling, if the SNP, as Stewart Hosie has said, get
:13:46. > :13:49.a clear mandate for independence, is it democratically viable for
:13:49. > :13:55.Westminster to say we are not even going to discuss the idea of a
:13:55. > :13:59.currency union? If Scotland votes for independence and it has a
:13:59. > :14:03.democratic right to do so if that is what the majority choose, we are
:14:03. > :14:08.voting to leave the rest of the UK. After that, we decide what we are
:14:08. > :14:13.going to do. We can ask for a currency union but maybe the other
:14:13. > :14:17.side to not want to play, or the terms and conditions might be such
:14:17. > :14:20.that you have such budgetary restrictions that you do not have
:14:20. > :14:25.independence at all. A currency union takes you to an economic and
:14:25. > :14:30.then a political union. Or if the currency unit does not work -- the
:14:30. > :14:35.currency union does not work or you do not like it, you are either left
:14:35. > :14:40.with using sterling, and heaven help the financial services industry in
:14:40. > :14:44.Scotland if they had no central bank, or you set out on an uncharted
:14:44. > :14:48.course with your own currency. This is Scotland's decision, I am
:14:48. > :14:52.Scottish, sitting in the capital of Scotland, I do not want to see my
:14:52. > :14:56.country gambled with. I want to ensure the best possible option for
:14:56. > :15:00.my country, which is why I think we are better and stronger together.
:15:00. > :15:04.What is your Plan B in the event of no currency union, added sounds
:15:04. > :15:10.increasingly like that will not happen? I disagree.What is your
:15:10. > :15:14.Plan B? There will be a lot of hysterical stuff said by the no
:15:14. > :15:20.campaign in the run up to September. You keep a currency union which
:15:21. > :15:26.works, you keep it to reduce columns -- transaction cost is, you do not
:15:26. > :15:31.shred the currency by taking �40 billion just to make a political
:15:31. > :15:35.point in the run-up to the referendum. Alastair is wrong. Of
:15:35. > :15:37.course they will be strident and assertive, of course they will say
:15:37. > :15:43.it is dreadfully difficult. What about economic question the
:15:43. > :15:46.financial markets are not just going to take on trust the
:15:46. > :15:51.creditworthiness of an independent Scotland? They will not just say,
:15:51. > :15:55.you are right, we trust you, it will be fine. When you go into a currency
:15:55. > :15:58.union, Alistair Darling is talking about that risk to the British
:15:58. > :16:03.economy as it stands. I think it would be far better to have a
:16:03. > :16:09.sensible discussion about the markets, about guilt assurance in
:16:09. > :16:15.Scotland. It is right that the credit aid gin seas may say that
:16:15. > :16:20.Scotland has no history of those issues, but given the Scottish
:16:20. > :16:23.economy is in a better position than the UK, with a lower deficit, lower
:16:23. > :16:27.net debt, better in employment and higher growth, the underlying
:16:27. > :16:32.economic's means that there is no certainty at all that Scotland would
:16:32. > :16:42.have higher borrowing costs, which is the scare story the no campaign
:16:42. > :16:47.
:16:47. > :16:52.I'm in favour of what we have at the moment where we have the United
:16:52. > :16:54.Kingdom, where we have the two economies working well together.
:16:54. > :16:58.The question before us and before people in Scotland is whether or
:16:58. > :17:02.not you want to break that up. What the Nationalists are asking us to
:17:02. > :17:07.do is to vote to separate, leave the UK, but by the way, we want to
:17:07. > :17:11.get back into an arrangement with the currency. It's similar -- it
:17:11. > :17:15.won't wash. You're right to ask Stewart Hosie and the Nationalists
:17:15. > :17:18.what is plan B, because if you can't get the currency union or the
:17:18. > :17:22.terms are unacceptable because they're putting controls over your
:17:23. > :17:28.budgets and so on, as we see in the eurozone, what is your plan B? Are
:17:28. > :17:31.we going have a new currency? That is going into uncharted water. Most
:17:31. > :17:36.people in Scotland would want nothing to do with. It the pound
:17:36. > :17:40.matters to us, for our jobs and our savings, pension tooz. Which is why
:17:40. > :17:45.we want to keep it. Why do you want to leave the UK in the first place?
:17:45. > :17:50.The union is about more than just currency. It's about George Osborne
:17:50. > :17:54.with an austerity budget, with a trillion pound deficit, with the
:17:54. > :17:57.deficit approaching 100% of GDP and with decisions like the bedroom tax
:17:57. > :18:01.being taken not in the interests of Scottish people. It's about all the
:18:01. > :18:05.other tax and spend decisions not just the currency. As both of us
:18:05. > :18:09.know, we are not voting for the next Government for the next five
:18:09. > :18:13.years. You are voting for something that could last for 300 years.
:18:13. > :18:17.You're asking us to take a gamble. You know, the SNP is the party that
:18:17. > :18:20.told us they had a legal opinion that said we'd automatically get
:18:20. > :18:25.into the European Union. It turned out to be complete nonsense. Now
:18:25. > :18:28.they're trying to bluster their way through an argument that is central
:18:28. > :18:33.to the credibility and it's been blown apart. Thank you very much.
:18:33. > :18:37.You have the final word on this. What do you say to Stewart Hosie?
:18:37. > :18:42.What I say is that it was important to raise the issue of the debate on
:18:42. > :18:46.independence, but now is when the real debate starts, the reasonable,
:18:46. > :18:50.practical, pragmatic approach to what that means in reality. What
:18:50. > :18:53.Alistair Darling has said is correct. Can you raise the
:18:53. > :18:57.overarching issue of we want independence, but it will boil down
:18:57. > :19:01.to the real practical measures and how it will impact upon Scotland.
:19:01. > :19:04.Unfortunately, the answers are not clear from the SNP as to what that
:19:04. > :19:09.will mean for the Scottish people. Thank you very much.
:19:09. > :19:12.The local elections are over a week away and what with it being St
:19:12. > :19:15.George's Day and all that we thought, who better to nail their
:19:15. > :19:24.patriotic colours to the mast than the English Democrats. The party
:19:24. > :19:28.was unveiled in 2002, after Robin Tilbrook's English National Party
:19:28. > :19:32.merged with other paertsz. Their policy for a creation of a devolves
:19:32. > :19:36.English Parliament. It's not clear how many members the party has.
:19:36. > :19:41.Robin Tilbrook claims it's around 3,000. In the May elections they
:19:41. > :19:45.are fielding 39 candidates with 23 of them standing in Kent. They're
:19:45. > :19:50.putting up three district councillors. Their biggest achieve
:19:51. > :19:53.to date is when Peter Davies won Doncaster in 2009. He resigned from
:19:53. > :19:56.the party in February concerned with the number of people joining
:19:56. > :20:00.from the British National Party. The leader of the English Democrats,
:20:00. > :20:04.Robin Tilbrook is with us. Welcome to the programme. Davies zaif
:20:04. > :20:09.Davies the mayor of Doncaster resigned from the party concerned
:20:09. > :20:15.about the number of former BNP members joining the party. Was he
:20:15. > :20:19.right? No, the number of the people joining from the BNP is fairly
:20:19. > :20:24.small. It happened a year or so ago. It was old news any way. Peter, on
:20:24. > :20:28.the other hand, is somebody who is now an ex-sul porter of six parties
:20:28. > :20:33.and he is one of those people that is quite difficult to work with. He
:20:33. > :20:37.glorifies in the title of being the maverick mayor. You're pleased he's
:20:37. > :20:41.gone? We think we have a better candidate standing. We are getting
:20:41. > :20:45.a very good response from people in Doncaster. I'm hopeful we will win
:20:45. > :20:50.again. Do you stand by your comments thaw made at the 10th
:20:50. > :20:57.annual conference in Leicester in September 2011, the BNP supporters
:20:57. > :21:01.are joining us. They will help us become a credible party. We need
:21:01. > :21:05.not be too defensive. I think that's right. You just said there
:21:05. > :21:10.weren't that many BNP joining the party, are there? What numbers are
:21:10. > :21:15.we talking about? Out of about 3,000 members that we've got,
:21:15. > :21:19.probably about 200 or 300 who are ex-BNP. That doesn't worry you at
:21:19. > :21:24.all? No, as long as they are genuine converts to what we are
:21:24. > :21:29.talking about, I'm not bothered about it. Does it worry you? If 10%
:21:29. > :21:32.of my membership was an ex-extreme right-wing party it would worry me.
:21:32. > :21:36.The concerns that Peter Davies has raised have been raised by a number
:21:36. > :21:42.of organisations. There are a lot of NGOs and third-sector
:21:42. > :21:46.organisation who's work in the area of monitoring extreme right-wing
:21:46. > :21:50.movements. This has been happening for a number of years, as the BNP
:21:50. > :21:54.has lost support, much of the hard core supporters have drifted into
:21:54. > :22:01.other parties. Converted to the policies of the English Democrats?
:22:01. > :22:06.Look, you know, however much people convert, if 10 mers of the -- 10%
:22:06. > :22:11.of the party membership are ex- members of an extreme party that
:22:11. > :22:16.should worry you. You were somebody who was talking about joining
:22:16. > :22:21.Labour, weren't you? That's a complete nonsense. The fact is that
:22:21. > :22:25.people are able to change their mind and they should be allowed to,
:22:25. > :22:31.within reason. What we're looking at is a situation where people are
:22:31. > :22:37.becoming more and more concerned about English national identity.
:22:37. > :22:41.The census from 2011 show that something like 70% of people in
:22:41. > :22:45.England consider themself English. 60% of those said they were English
:22:45. > :22:50.only. English national identity is the issue that's rising up the
:22:50. > :22:52.political spectrum. It is important that there should be a moderate,
:22:52. > :22:57.sensible English Nationalist Party to represent that view. We are that
:22:57. > :23:03.party. Many people are incredibly proud of being English. The patron
:23:03. > :23:08.saint, St George's Day, who we're celebrating today, St George was of
:23:08. > :23:14.Palestinian origin. He wasn't a white man from the shires. He was
:23:14. > :23:17.Greek. He was half Greek and half Palestinian. Therefore, I think you
:23:17. > :23:20.know the kind of people you are attracting from the British
:23:20. > :23:26.National Party are exactly the kind of people who would see anybody who
:23:26. > :23:29.was not white as not acceptable. Salute nonsense. We have stood non-
:23:29. > :23:34.white candidates. We're happy to do so. We are happy to have people
:23:34. > :23:38.join us who are genuine converts to our party. Any sensible party would
:23:38. > :23:44.do so. The Conservative Party, undoubtedly has people in it who
:23:44. > :23:48.are ex-BNP as well. Labour has at least two Councillor who's are ex-
:23:48. > :23:51.BNP activists, in one case a person who was a BNP Councillor. It's a
:23:51. > :23:55.ridiculous point to say you shouldn't allow people to change
:23:55. > :23:59.their minds. This is politics, this is grown-up politics. People change
:23:59. > :24:02.their minds. It's perfectly fair and reasonable to do so. Is it a
:24:02. > :24:06.failure of mainstream parties as well that actually, the English
:24:06. > :24:10.Democrats are taking an issue that is important in many people's minds
:24:10. > :24:13.and hasn't been dealt with in terms of patriotism, in terms of English
:24:13. > :24:17.identity. The Conservative Party has failed to address it.
:24:17. > :24:20.wouldn't agree with that at all. If you look at everything that we've
:24:20. > :24:24.been doing and what the Department for Communities and Local
:24:24. > :24:27.Government have been doing, we're flying the flag today. I draped
:24:27. > :24:31.myself in a Union flag when we celebrated the Royal Wedding and it
:24:31. > :24:35.went to the Olympics. You don't need to be nasty and extreme right-
:24:35. > :24:38.wing to be patriotic. I'm deeply patriotic. I'm proud of being
:24:38. > :24:41.English. I'm proud of being a Yorkshire woman. I don't feel the
:24:41. > :24:47.need to sign up to some of the views of the British National Party
:24:47. > :24:53.to do that. To drape your self-in the Union Jack shows the confusion.
:24:53. > :25:00.The Union Jack is not an emblem of England. I never said it was.It's
:25:00. > :25:04.an emblem of being English. I was proud of being English. St George's
:25:04. > :25:08.Day, according to the BBC website, St George was from Turkey. We won't
:25:08. > :25:14.get into a discussion. It's now Turkey. 500 years later he was
:25:14. > :25:17.martyred in 303. How are you celebrating? Well, standard, good
:25:17. > :25:24.old fashioned roast beef and I'm geeing to be thoroughly enjoying
:25:24. > :25:28.the day. I have my rose... Should it be a bank holiday? Yes, we're
:25:28. > :25:31.only the party campaigning for it to be a bank holiday. Obviously
:25:31. > :25:35.what we want is a proper celebration of England's national
:25:35. > :25:39.day. Are you celebrating? Of course I am. I celebrate being English
:25:39. > :25:45.every single day. I don't need to put a badge on to say I'm English.
:25:45. > :25:51.Thank you very much. Now, our guest of the day is also minister for
:25:51. > :25:54.faith and communities and looks to highlights problems relating to
:25:54. > :25:58.attacks and discrimination against ethnic communities. Does
:25:58. > :26:08.Islamophobia pass the dinner-table test? Baroness Warsi went out to
:26:08. > :26:11.
:26:11. > :26:15.see for herself. I'm here at theality ring ham
:26:15. > :26:19.Islamic Cultural Centre. This building was an unused chapel. It
:26:19. > :26:26.was bought by the Muslim community and now provides essential services
:26:26. > :26:29.for local communities. This is a progressive, open, confident,
:26:29. > :26:34.successful community. It has great relations with the local churches,
:26:34. > :26:37.with synagogues and other faithes. But despite that, it still doesn't
:26:37. > :26:46.stop them being subjected to anti- Muslim hatred and anti-Muslim
:26:46. > :26:52.attacks. Welcome. I see you brought the sunshine with you. I did, I
:26:52. > :26:57.brought it over the Pennines. I was shown around the centre and
:26:57. > :27:01.explained what had happened here. How many attacks have you had on
:27:01. > :27:05.the centre? We had about ten to 12 attacks. Those windows were smashed,
:27:05. > :27:09.windows on both sides of the hall smashed. In the past graffiti was
:27:09. > :27:12.put on both halls and been set on fire. Having said all that, we have
:27:12. > :27:18.very good relationship with our neighbours. They keep an eye on the
:27:18. > :27:22.centre. Just for the sake of one or two bad apples, we don't want to
:27:22. > :27:26.tarnish the whole community over these attacks. Sadly, however,
:27:26. > :27:30.these sorts of attacks are not just limited to religious buildings.
:27:30. > :27:34.They are taking place across the country and are blighting victims'
:27:34. > :27:39.daily lives. Women have had veils torn from their heads. Children
:27:39. > :27:45.have been physically assaulted at school. And families have been
:27:45. > :27:47.continually targeted, some even driven from their homes. Matthew
:27:47. > :27:52.Goodwin is an academic from the University of Nottingham. He's
:27:52. > :27:57.conducted research into the area of extremism. His work has shown that
:27:58. > :28:03.this problem is under reported. Compared to other forms of
:28:03. > :28:09.prejudice, Andy Semitism, racism, those kind of --ant Semitism,
:28:09. > :28:11.racism, those kind of prejudices, it's 2013 and we only just have a
:28:11. > :28:15.system in place to monitor attacks against Muslim communities.
:28:15. > :28:19.Alongside that, there's a bigger challenge going on here. That's a
:28:19. > :28:24.large reservoir of public hostility towards British Muslim communities,
:28:24. > :28:27.49%, almost one out of every two citizens rejected the idea that
:28:28. > :28:31.Muslims were compatible with the British way of life. Two years ago,
:28:32. > :28:36.I said that Islamophobia had passed the dinner-table test. What I meant
:28:36. > :28:40.by that was that unfortunately, anti-Muslim sentiment was found in
:28:40. > :28:45.the most civilised of settings. Two years on, evidence supports that
:28:45. > :28:52.statement. But the good news is that Government is finally dealing
:28:52. > :28:59.with the issue and it's now a priority.
:28:59. > :29:04.The experience here in this quiet, leafy suburb shows anti-Muslim
:29:04. > :29:10.attacks can happen any time, any place. As I've said before, an
:29:10. > :29:14.attack on one community is an attack on all of us. We must rise
:29:14. > :29:24.against this intolerance and bigotry and together, we must stamp
:29:24. > :29:28.
:29:28. > :29:31.We're joined now by Professor Ted Cantle who works with iCoCo who
:29:31. > :29:34.works with community cohesion and author of the Cantle Report.
:29:34. > :29:40.Welcome to the programme. Would you agree there is a problem with
:29:40. > :29:44.Muslim hate crimes? Very definitely. There's been a very big increase.
:29:44. > :29:47.As was explained in your piece there. And Muslims are far more
:29:47. > :29:52.likely than any other group to say they've experienced prejudice. So
:29:52. > :30:02.there's no doubt about that. What about the way the Muslim community
:30:02. > :30:08.
:30:08. > :30:12.community as if it was one community. The vast majority of
:30:12. > :30:17.Muslims in Britain are not associated with terrorism or any of
:30:17. > :30:22.this agenda. We have to be very clear, this is a small section.
:30:22. > :30:25.Sayeeda Warsi, how is the government dealing with this? We set up the
:30:25. > :30:28.cross government group on anti-Muslim hatred which brings
:30:28. > :30:33.together civil servants from all government departments who would
:30:33. > :30:40.have an interest and have to deal with this issue. We have also funded
:30:41. > :30:45.-- funded a project which is monitoring anti-muscle attacks. This
:30:45. > :30:50.effectively monitors online hatred, it is for people to report
:30:50. > :30:57.anti-Muslim attacks. It is working with mosques, myself, and the
:30:57. > :31:00.secretary of state Eric Pickles, we went to every mosque in the UK, we
:31:01. > :31:06.talked about what opportunities they were, how they could report, how
:31:06. > :31:11.victim support would step in. Professor Ted Cantle, does the
:31:11. > :31:16.government have the right approach? Unfortunately, I think it doesn't.
:31:16. > :31:21.It is important to identify hate crime against Muslims, to set up a
:31:21. > :31:26.special initiative is very dangerous, it just perpetuates the
:31:26. > :31:32.situation we have had. Yesterday I was on BBC Radio Sheffield talking
:31:32. > :31:36.about hate crime against the Roma community. This morning I was on LBC
:31:36. > :31:39.talking about racist attacks on the London Underground. The more we
:31:39. > :31:46.single out the Muslim community for special treatment the more, I think,
:31:46. > :31:50.ironically, we are making matters worse. We have to see hate crime
:31:50. > :31:54.more generally, including those with special needs, subject to the most
:31:54. > :32:01.vicious hate crime recently, and make sure we are tackling this as
:32:01. > :32:04.one community, not as a series of specialist groups? So the government
:32:04. > :32:08.approach is counter-productive? have a lot of time for Ted, I
:32:08. > :32:14.remember him when we were dealing with the fallout from the Bradford
:32:14. > :32:21.riots. But I think his understanding is fundamentally flawed. There are
:32:21. > :32:25.very specific challenges that we as a country face. Wider Muslim
:32:25. > :32:30.community specifically, why not hate -- hate crime against different
:32:30. > :32:35.communities? We had a cross government working group on
:32:35. > :32:40.anti-Semitism, it still exists and it has been hugely successful.
:32:40. > :32:45.looking at Muslim hatred we did not feel the need to reinvent wheel, but
:32:45. > :32:49.to look at something which worked. If you look at these statistics for
:32:49. > :32:54.disaggregated religious hate crime, hate crime as a whole, but which
:32:54. > :32:59.communities most being impacted, almost 60 % of religious hate crime
:32:59. > :33:03.is directed towards the dish muslin community. I think it is worse than
:33:03. > :33:08.that, this government is developing initiatives singling out separate
:33:08. > :33:12.communities. We are giving money to church groups, Christian
:33:12. > :33:18.communities, Muslim communities, and presiding over the explosion of
:33:18. > :33:23.faith schools for Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Jewish people, even
:33:23. > :33:28.evangelical Christians. Is it any wonder that children are growing up
:33:28. > :33:34.with prejudiced views when they are separated almost at birth? We have
:33:34. > :33:39.to end the way in which we have Balkanised our education system. I
:33:39. > :33:43.don't see that this government is trying to create an integrated
:33:43. > :33:50.society. Faith schools have led to segregation, in the view of
:33:50. > :33:54.Professor Ted Cantle? Is it right to faith school -- to have faith
:33:54. > :34:00.schools which in some cases... Educationally, of course, people
:34:00. > :34:03.believe they are successful, but do they reinforce separation between
:34:03. > :34:09.communities? I don't think so, I think in some areas they provide the
:34:09. > :34:17.only form of a decent, strong education. The push that Michael
:34:17. > :34:21.Gove has had on academies and free schools, in many areas... Does it
:34:21. > :34:26.reinforce separate the spit in communities? I have seen faith
:34:26. > :34:32.schools in action. Talking about the British Muslim community, the amount
:34:32. > :34:38.of faith state schools which are Muslim faith schools is probably in
:34:38. > :34:42.single digits. Compared that to the number of... Why did your government
:34:42. > :34:46.take the duty to promote community cohesion in schools out of the
:34:46. > :34:50.Ofsted regime? The one thing that was going on in schools which was
:34:50. > :34:54.helping schools from different backgrounds get together has been
:34:54. > :34:58.removed from the Ofsted regime. Schools are no longer taking this
:34:58. > :35:02.seriously, and all the cohesion resources at local level in
:35:02. > :35:06.voluntary sector bodies have been cut back so that, really, there is
:35:06. > :35:11.nothing going on with regards to integration, and we are about to
:35:11. > :35:15.face a new wave, probably, of Romanian and Bulgarian migration,
:35:15. > :35:20.which will not be as big as people say but we are not preparing for
:35:20. > :35:30.integration in the way the government said it would. Answer the
:35:30. > :35:31.
:35:31. > :35:35.question on a huge and being taken out of Ofsted? There was a juicy,
:35:35. > :35:42.that did not necessarily mean it was happening in schools. -- there was a
:35:42. > :35:46.GT. I would say that any school with a diverse range of pupils would be
:35:46. > :35:51.considering dealing with issues of inter-faith relations, community
:35:51. > :35:55.cohesion, as part of what the headteacher would set as it vision.
:35:55. > :35:59.We are not a prescriptive government, just because you have a
:35:59. > :36:04.tick box which says we have a duty of community cohesion and we have
:36:04. > :36:09.take that, that does not mean it is happening. We have moved away from
:36:09. > :36:13.the site load approach, single group funding. Let's have a meeting and
:36:13. > :36:21.tell you about what we are really doing. You to have a meeting, then
:36:21. > :36:24.come back to the programme. Thank you very much. Last night the House
:36:24. > :36:29.of Lords voted to outlaw caste discrimination amongst Asians,
:36:29. > :36:37.something which has been proclaimed as a big step.
:36:37. > :36:40.The government said it had set up an education programme to tackle caste
:36:40. > :36:46.discrimination, but Piers said that this was not enough and the law had
:36:46. > :36:55.to be changed. Here is a flavour of the debate.
:36:55. > :36:59.We believe that the time is already overdue for it to be stated that
:36:59. > :37:05.discrimination on caste in the public sphere, like any other -- any
:37:05. > :37:10.other discrimination, is not acceptable. It is contrary to the
:37:10. > :37:15.culture and values of our society and should be seen to be illegal.
:37:15. > :37:20.The government has come a long way in thinking about this. We part
:37:20. > :37:28.company because we believe that we need to pass this amendment is now,
:37:28. > :37:32.we need to get the legislation on the statute book and we need to then
:37:32. > :37:42.resolve the issues that flow from that. That is why we are supporting
:37:42. > :37:43.
:37:43. > :37:50.Lord Harry's game. -- supporting Lord Harris again. There needs to be
:37:50. > :37:53.action to address this problem. The government is prepared to act, we
:37:53. > :37:58.need to make sure we do this in the right way and that we consider all
:37:58. > :38:04.the issues before we act and not afterwards. For that reason, I hope
:38:04. > :38:09.very much that the noble and reverend Lord is able to withdraw
:38:09. > :38:14.his amendment in the house and that he accepts the motion put forward.
:38:14. > :38:18.We believe it is very important to make it quite clear that legislation
:38:18. > :38:22.is necessary to protect people. I feel we have had such a serious
:38:22. > :38:29.debate tonight and the issues have been so thoroughly debated that it
:38:29. > :38:37.is right that the opinion of this house should be tested.
:38:37. > :38:41.Joining us as Barry Gardiner MP, chair of Labour friends of India.
:38:41. > :38:47.Why can't the government support legislation to outlaw caste
:38:47. > :38:52.discrimination? This debate started whilst I was in opposition. I took
:38:52. > :38:55.the equalities act through on behalf of the opposition. Labour were in a
:38:55. > :39:01.very different position, they did not think there was evidence to
:39:01. > :39:06.bring it in place, I said, let's keep a power... Did you vote for the
:39:06. > :39:10.legislation? I said that we should retain this power so that in the
:39:10. > :39:15.future when we had the evidence, we should bring it back into
:39:15. > :39:25.legislation. Since then, there has been researched and as to the extent
:39:25. > :39:31.of caste discrimination. How how far would it take place in the private
:39:31. > :39:36.sphere? I feel that further work needs to be done to ensure we start
:39:36. > :39:39.looking at the evidence, look at how we can protect these communities.
:39:39. > :39:45.There are real issues in relation to people who feel they are
:39:45. > :39:51.discriminated against, because they are perceived in a community as
:39:51. > :40:01.being lesser human beings. That has to be dealt with. Why didn't you
:40:01. > :40:01.
:40:02. > :40:04.vote? Legislation has two vote. -- legislation has two work. Baroness
:40:04. > :40:09.Warsi didn't quite represent her position three years ago in that
:40:09. > :40:12.way. Three years ago she quoted from a report saying that the Labour
:40:13. > :40:17.government was not going far enough, the Labour Government said that we
:40:17. > :40:21.should wait, we should conduct research and give a period of
:40:21. > :40:25.reflection to make sure that when we did exercise the power in secondary
:40:25. > :40:32.legislation to put caste in as a protected characteristic, that it
:40:32. > :40:34.would be done in the right way. For three years she has been in
:40:34. > :40:44.government and no consultation has taken place. Baroness Thornton, who
:40:44. > :40:45.
:40:45. > :40:48.has been wonderful, she paid huge tribute to Lord Howe is, Baroness
:40:48. > :40:52.Thornton has listened more in three weeks than your government has in
:40:52. > :40:56.three years. As a result, you have had to back from your position and
:40:56. > :40:59.the government has announced that within two months it be lamenting
:40:59. > :41:05.precisely what the Labour Government said should happen in a few years
:41:05. > :41:10.time. There will be people watching who will say that surely this is a
:41:10. > :41:18.no-brainer. Why shouldn't people be protected from caste discrimination
:41:18. > :41:23.in the UK? I completely agree. former lawyer, let me say, I want a
:41:23. > :41:29.situation where you provide real protection for people in real lives.
:41:29. > :41:37.Why can't it because -- be part of the equality act and work as
:41:37. > :41:43.effectively as it does for others? have spent lots of time listening to
:41:43. > :41:48.communities from within the Hindu and Sikh community, some who are for
:41:48. > :41:52.and some who are against, some say that putting it on the statute books
:41:53. > :41:58.will not deal with what happens in private spheres, quiet
:41:58. > :42:02.discrimination and intra- community issues. If we can go with what the
:42:02. > :42:09.government has said it will do, it has said it will bring in through
:42:09. > :42:15.secondary legislation this Parliament within two months. I pay
:42:15. > :42:21.tribute to the Association of Hindu organisations which met with shadow
:42:21. > :42:25.ministers over the past few weeks, with somebody who has brilliantly
:42:25. > :42:31.represented the views of the community. The point being made by
:42:31. > :42:35.Sayeeda Warsi is that if it is happening privately... It is not
:42:35. > :42:39.about a private sphere, Baroness Warsi knows this very well. She has
:42:40. > :42:44.deliberately clouded the issue. It is very specific legislation and it
:42:44. > :42:48.is about the provision of services and employment law. As a former
:42:48. > :42:54.barrister you should have got your facts right, you clouded the issue
:42:54. > :42:57.by pretending otherwise. To answer your question, the one about what
:42:57. > :43:01.other ways in which this can be properly implemented, the first
:43:01. > :43:06.thing is not to do what the government said and have a big
:43:06. > :43:13.programme of education about caste. Caste is a diminishing issue in the
:43:13. > :43:17.community in this country, everybody except that. Everybody except that
:43:18. > :43:21.there is tiny, tiny discrimination, but that everybody is entitled to
:43:21. > :43:28.redress under the law if they are discriminated against. We don't want
:43:28. > :43:31.people to be monitored for caste, to register and record their caste. The
:43:31. > :43:36.community was deeply concerned about that. The government has not
:43:36. > :43:45.listened. Could there be a U-turn? The government are looking at it
:43:46. > :43:49.today. I would say that we are actually on the same page. We both
:43:49. > :43:54.protect people from caste discrimination. , you might like to
:43:54. > :43:58.say that, but we are not. Are the unions blocking public
:43:58. > :44:03.service reform? Giles is on the green with one man who thinks they
:44:03. > :44:13.are, and one man who thinks they are not. I have got Paul Nowak, the
:44:13. > :44:13.
:44:13. > :44:17.assistant general secretary of the TUC, and Dr Sean Worth, from Policy
:44:17. > :44:22.Exchange. You seem to suggest there are more people using public
:44:23. > :44:27.services, less money coming in. You want a revolution in delivery, what
:44:27. > :44:30.is that? You are right about the challenges, demand is going up and
:44:30. > :44:35.money is not, we need to bring in innovation and the best possible
:44:35. > :44:41.providers. You need to give people what they want, a lot more choice,
:44:41. > :44:47.information and more different providers delivering services.
:44:47. > :44:50.more private companies... It does not matter. People want protection.
:44:51. > :44:55.If providers are coming in they want to make sure they are not profiteers
:44:55. > :44:59.looking for a fast buck, that the services will be there. I have been
:44:59. > :45:03.saying that there is a hardening sense of militancy in the trade
:45:03. > :45:06.union movement running the public sector, we need to make sure that
:45:06. > :45:11.emergency services are protected at all costs. Not being allowed to
:45:12. > :45:16.strike, which is where you are kicking the hornets nest? I can't
:45:16. > :45:22.imagine the TUC buying that. But around half of the people surveyed
:45:22. > :45:27.said they don't mind who provides the service, as long as it is
:45:27. > :45:31.maintained? It is about opening up public services to the market, more
:45:31. > :45:34.private sector involvement. It is a bizarre report when tens of billions
:45:34. > :45:39.of pounds are being taken out of public spending and communities are
:45:39. > :45:42.under pressure, public services have been decimated right across the
:45:42. > :45:46.country. And on the day that the public accounts committee has
:45:46. > :45:56.criticised the government for wasting millions on the academies
:45:56. > :46:00.
:46:00. > :46:07.programme. For all of public services, Policy Exchange... Does It
:46:07. > :46:11.Actually Matter? We Just Want Our Services Provided. People Want Good
:46:11. > :46:21.Quality Public Services That They Can Trust. The Public Says They
:46:21. > :46:21.
:46:21. > :46:26.Trust The Public Sector To Deliver That. Trade union surveys on this
:46:26. > :46:31.subject are the only ones which have ever been published. The audit
:46:31. > :46:37.commission, the public sector and private companies, very clear,
:46:37. > :46:47.people don't care who is doing the admin, they want very good services.
:46:47. > :46:47.
:46:48. > :46:51.Policy exchange care. You are not involved in the debate. You work for
:46:51. > :46:54.a lobby group which represents companies delivering private
:46:54. > :46:58.healthcare services. At the end of the day, this is about getting the
:46:58. > :47:03.best bang for the buck for the taxpayer, delivering quality public
:47:03. > :47:13.services. The idea that the public sector is inherently better is not
:47:13. > :47:15.
:47:15. > :47:20.You worked in Number Ten, you don't any more. I've heard it from
:47:20. > :47:23.backbenchers, Steve Hilton is gone, Tim Chatwin has gone. People are
:47:23. > :47:28.leaving Number Ten. Is it because like you they want to do things and
:47:28. > :47:32.they think the Government is not going to do them? I worked in
:47:33. > :47:35.politics for many years before going into Government. I left for
:47:35. > :47:38.personal reasons. They're all leaving for personal reasons?
:47:38. > :47:41.They're looking for challenges. The Government needs to hire more
:47:41. > :47:45.political people right across because there is such a big agenda
:47:45. > :47:52.to push through. Are you sure it's not because they think this isn't
:47:52. > :47:55.going to last? Coalition is not as dynamic and idealistic as a
:47:55. > :47:58.majority Government, obviously. It's certainly not why I left
:47:58. > :48:02.working in politics. I can't speak for anyone else. Gentlemen, thank
:48:02. > :48:06.you very much. That's the debate. Can I see it will carry on until
:48:06. > :48:11.2015. Thank you very much. Now it comes
:48:11. > :48:16.in two volumes, the first of which is out today. It costs �30 although
:48:16. > :48:19.I'm told if you shop around you can buy it for less. The book shop
:48:19. > :48:23.Waterstone's says it's the second most pre-ordered biography of the
:48:23. > :48:28.year so far. What am I talking about, well the authorised
:48:28. > :48:33.biography of Baroness Thatcher. It's written by Charles Moore who
:48:33. > :48:36.we'll talk to in a moment. First, here's a bit about it. It was
:48:36. > :48:40.conceived in 1997, but it had a number of crucial conditions
:48:40. > :48:44.attached to it. The book was to be published only after Baroness
:48:44. > :48:49.Thatcher's death. She never wanted to read it. She didn't want to know
:48:49. > :48:55.what the people who contributed to it thought of her. Charles Moore
:48:55. > :48:59.had access to thousands of pages of private and Government papers. And
:48:59. > :49:04.to the lady herself, with whom he conducted numerous interviews. Is
:49:04. > :49:10.it any good? Let's ask the man who wrote it, that might be a biased
:49:10. > :49:12.view. It's very heavy. Was it liberating for you when you were
:49:12. > :49:17.conducting all the interviews and doing the research, knowing that
:49:17. > :49:21.she was never going to read it? Very liberating. It was a condition
:49:21. > :49:25.she laid down from the first, which I was relieved about. I had talked
:49:25. > :49:30.to people who had written buy yoing Fiz of living politicianed and they
:49:30. > :49:35.are breathing down their neck and wanting to say wasn't it clever
:49:35. > :49:39.here and why not say this. Mrs Thatcher said it can't appear in my
:49:39. > :49:43.lifetime and I'm not allowed to read it, but you have complete
:49:43. > :49:47.access to everything you could want. Huge responsibility. Huge
:49:47. > :49:51.responsibility, but a great relief and the extraordinary thing was it
:49:51. > :49:55.really did surprise me was she never did try to ask me what I was
:49:55. > :49:59.saying. She didn't change her mind and started to probe you? Not even
:49:59. > :50:02.one little tiny bit. I was really surprised and delighted because it
:50:02. > :50:06.meant I could get on with proper work. I feared I would have an
:50:06. > :50:10.argument where she was wanting the book to be something, never.
:50:10. > :50:14.Literally never. How would you describe the book then, when you
:50:14. > :50:17.say she might have influenced it to be something, what do you mean?
:50:17. > :50:22.Often people want everything to be nice about them, but also they want
:50:22. > :50:27.to preach a particular message. Neither of those things was I ever,
:50:27. > :50:31.erm, I'm trying to write and I've written, I think, proper history
:50:31. > :50:35.for the first time. This is beyond all the Poe legalic, which raged
:50:35. > :50:42.around her for years and years. Of course, I take account of the Poe
:50:42. > :50:46.legalic, but I want it to be -- polemic, but I want a stand in
:50:46. > :50:50.history Andreasen a mixture of a private woman, who I see much more
:50:50. > :50:54.of through this material than anyone else and the public deeds.
:50:54. > :50:59.Does it contradict much of what's been written about her beforehand?
:50:59. > :51:02.It doesn't exactly contradict, but it hugely amplifies and qualifies.
:51:02. > :51:07.For example, she's a conviction politician. We all know that. But
:51:07. > :51:11.she's also very, very cautious and a very cunning politician. This
:51:11. > :51:13.comes up much more strongly by the study of her work. Then of course,
:51:13. > :51:17.there's the whole aspect of her private life and her youth, which
:51:17. > :51:20.is very little known. Yes, I mean it's interesting because I've been
:51:20. > :51:23.reading up some of the notes about it and there were things clearly
:51:23. > :51:27.that I didn't know about the relationship with her sister, for
:51:27. > :51:36.example, what was that like? sister was four years older, that's
:51:36. > :51:41.her only sibling. She was less academic than Margaret. Mural, who
:51:41. > :51:51.I met was a very strong character, stronger than Margaret. Really?!
:51:51. > :51:53.
:51:53. > :51:57.Very formidable. Right!Because Margaret said please, everything
:51:57. > :52:02.can be seen, Muriel showed me letters that Margaret had written
:52:02. > :52:11.her in her youth. Were they close? Yes, at that time. They maintained
:52:11. > :52:15.good res. -- Relations. They reveal the whole of her youth from her
:52:15. > :52:19.school days, through Oxford, early work and her boyfriends. And her
:52:19. > :52:23.marriage and her children. So they're absolutely, and her love of
:52:23. > :52:28.clothes and films and things like that. So, for example, three
:52:28. > :52:32.boyfriends that nobody's ever heard of. To be honest which Mrs Thatcher
:52:32. > :52:37.most of the time denied. Really? But did admit to me. Who were they?
:52:37. > :52:44.One who called Tony Bray. A farmer called Willie Cullen, who she
:52:44. > :52:48.passed over to her sister and who married Muriel. Then there's a Dr
:52:48. > :52:54.Called Robert Henderson. Very little if anything has been said
:52:54. > :52:58.about them. Tony Bray nothing before, nothing whatever. A tiny
:52:58. > :53:03.bit has been said about Willie Cullen and Dr Henderson. What about
:53:03. > :53:07.her mother. This is slightly obscure. I think it wasn't very
:53:07. > :53:11.good. Margaret wanted to grow away from her mother. This is known,
:53:11. > :53:15.what I think is less known is that she very much wanted to grow away
:53:16. > :53:20.from her farther. We know how much she admired her father, and this is
:53:20. > :53:23.true. She had a provincial life and she wanted to get into the big
:53:24. > :53:26.world and quite a lot of letters in the book where the father is
:53:26. > :53:31.clearly upset that he's not seeing enough of Margaret because Margaret
:53:32. > :53:38.is getting on with life. I'm sure one reason that Margaret expressed
:53:38. > :53:41.such loyalty to him when she became famous was that she felt guilty.
:53:41. > :53:45.Any revelations? In the early life there's this whole the young woman,
:53:45. > :53:50.the emotional side and the love. In the political life, I think there's
:53:50. > :53:53.the how did she do it. There's a marvellously interesting memoir she
:53:54. > :53:59.wrote of the Falklands. She hardly kept a record of anything. She kept
:53:59. > :54:02.a private record of the Falklands War which she wrote a year after it
:54:02. > :54:09.happened. Where you see the extraordinary intensity of emotion
:54:09. > :54:13.and the cin yesterdayible risks involved in it all. -- Are you
:54:13. > :54:17.looking forward to it? I am disappointed I didn't bring a copy
:54:17. > :54:20.for Charles to sign while he's here. I will do it for you. It's
:54:20. > :54:24.fantastic in the way you describe. It I haven't read any of it yet,
:54:24. > :54:28.but I think the human being behind the politician is what really
:54:28. > :54:32.interests me because ultimately, I think as politicians we are so
:54:32. > :54:36.caricatured and demonised and presented in a certain way, to be
:54:36. > :54:41.able to step away from that and say who was the person and what rooted
:54:41. > :54:44.her. And who also was the woman. It's interesting and important her
:54:45. > :54:48.sex. It makes it more interesting than the average politician.
:54:48. > :54:51.had a very strong relationship with Denis Thatcher. What will her
:54:51. > :54:55.children think of the book? They've helped me throughout and been very
:54:55. > :55:01.kind. I hope they'll enjoy it. It's always a bit difficult reading
:55:01. > :55:04.about your own mother, but I hope they enjoy it. Just quickly to you,
:55:04. > :55:07.Margaret Thatcher has been criticised for not doing enough to
:55:07. > :55:11.help other women break the glass ceiling, as a Muslim woman, you sit
:55:11. > :55:15.in Cabinet, do you think that is part of your role too, to help
:55:15. > :55:20.other women break through? Long before I came into politics, I used
:55:20. > :55:23.to, I probably shouldn't say this on national TV, I was constantly
:55:23. > :55:26.concerned I would be before a tribunal because I went out of my
:55:26. > :55:29.way to make sure I created opportunities for women. I think
:55:29. > :55:33.people like to promote and support people who are actually in their
:55:33. > :55:36.own frame. That's why you see so many men immediately turning to men
:55:36. > :55:39.when they look for promotion or people to bring into an
:55:39. > :55:43.organisation. Soy think every woman has an obligation and
:55:43. > :55:48.responsibility to say, you know, give somebody a go. Charles Moore,
:55:48. > :55:52.thank you very much. Time before we go to cross to College Green and
:55:52. > :55:56.talk to John Leech, who has tabled a Parliamentary motion about
:55:56. > :56:02.something very important. What are you calling for? A change in the
:56:02. > :56:07.time when the FA Cup final is on, because the FA Cup final this year
:56:07. > :56:10.is going to be at 5.15pm, which will mean a lot of Wigan fans and
:56:10. > :56:15.Manchester City fans are not going to be able to return home on the
:56:15. > :56:19.last train. For the future we want to make sure that the FA Cup gets
:56:19. > :56:22.its prominence back and is as a stand-alone if fixture on a
:56:22. > :56:27.Saturday afternoon ot 3pm so everyone can watch it and the fan
:56:27. > :56:30.kz get home in time after. It can't be changed for this time, it's too
:56:30. > :56:33.late. It's certainly too late for this year. But for the future we
:56:33. > :56:37.can make sure some lessons are learned and that fans in the North
:56:37. > :56:41.West, let's hope that lots of North West clubs are getting to the FA
:56:41. > :56:45.Cup final year after year, we need to make sure they'll be able to get
:56:45. > :56:48.back after the game late at night. At the moment, because the FA Cup
:56:48. > :56:53.final is being held on days when there are other league fixtures,
:56:53. > :56:57.it's being avoided from 3pm, so that as many fans can watch as
:56:57. > :57:02.possible. Of course, there are then implications for the fans trying to
:57:02. > :57:07.return home. Do people care enough these days about the FA Cup for it
:57:07. > :57:11.to be on a special day or to have it to itself? You tell that to the
:57:11. > :57:15.25,000-odd Wigan fans that have never been to an FA Cup final
:57:15. > :57:18.before and you tell that to the 25,000 City fans that will be going
:57:18. > :57:23.to Wembley for the second time for the FA Cup final in the last three
:57:23. > :57:26.years. And who do you support?I'm a season ticket holder at
:57:26. > :57:29.Manchester City. Are you worried people will be distracted bit
:57:29. > :57:33.Premier League, which you haven't won? Well, unfortunately, the best
:57:33. > :57:39.team won it this season. The best team won it last season as well.
:57:39. > :57:42.Hopefully next season it will be a City versus United curtain raiser
:57:42. > :57:45.for the Charity Shield and then City will go on to win the
:57:45. > :57:49.championship next year. Would you like to congratulate Manchester
:57:49. > :57:53.United? Slightly through gritted teeth, but I suppose they have been
:57:53. > :57:56.the best team this season. Well done. You did it. Thank you very
:57:56. > :58:00.much for joining us from College Green. Now there's just time to
:58:00. > :58:03.find out the answer to our quiz. What entertainment if needed is
:58:03. > :58:10.provide for the members of the House of Lords when they have to
:58:10. > :58:15.stay for late-night votes. Film screenings, open mic, comedy nights
:58:15. > :58:22.or Stitch 'n Bitch clubs? From the note I got round it was a movie, I
:58:22. > :58:26.think we had Skyfall on last time. I think we had Julian Fellowes
:58:26. > :58:29.talking about Downton Abbey. Why do you need entertainment? I don't
:58:29. > :58:33.have the time to be entertained. These are late nights, people are
:58:33. > :58:37.there for a long time in the evening. It passes the time for
:58:37. > :58:42.people who are waiting for votes. I have the privilege of a huge red
:58:42. > :58:47.box, soy don't have the opportunity to take part. So you didn't watch
:58:47. > :58:51.the film, you're not watching the film? I couldn't bear watching
:58:51. > :58:54.Skyfall with my colleagues. That's all for today. Thanks to my against,