:00:45. > :00:49.Daily Politics. Make no mistake, a lot of Tory backbenchers are not
:00:49. > :00:53.best pleased with Call Me Dave. Last night, half of them gave him a
:00:53. > :00:56.ticking off over his failure to include an EU referendum bill in the
:00:56. > :00:58.Queen's Speech. We will talk to former chancellor Nigel Lawson, who
:00:58. > :01:02.thinks yesterday's vote was a waste of time.
:01:02. > :01:07.Could the whole issue rear its head again in a private member's bill? We
:01:07. > :01:17.will talk to the winner of this morning's ballot. Red Ed may be
:01:17. > :01:17.
:01:18. > :01:20.ahead, but not by much, according to the polls.
:01:20. > :01:23.Does he have what it takes to win an election? And from the difficulties
:01:23. > :01:31.of one man to the troubles of all. We will be asking Diane Abbott why
:01:31. > :01:35.she thinks men could be in crisis. Diane Abbott, who is she? All that
:01:35. > :01:40.in the next hour. With us for the duration, former Labour pollster
:01:40. > :01:45.Debra Mattinson, who had to deal with Gordon Brown. She now runs an
:01:45. > :01:50.organisation called Britainthinks. That is a great relief to know. I
:01:50. > :01:54.myself would like a second opinion. First, let's talk about tax and
:01:54. > :01:58.Google, because the internet giant was in front of the Public Accounts
:01:58. > :02:04.Committee again this morning. The labour and Pete who chairs it,
:02:04. > :02:11.Margaret Hodge, said a payslip from a whistleblower showed that he was
:02:11. > :02:17.given commission on deals made in the UK. The Google executive, Matt
:02:17. > :02:20.Britain, claimed that 99% of sales were clinched in Dublin and that
:02:20. > :02:25.that was where they should be taxed. He was a flavour of the
:02:25. > :02:31.exchange. I would ask you to reconsider what you are telling us,
:02:31. > :02:34.because it does not make sense to your own staff. It does not make
:02:34. > :02:37.sense to the committee. It does not make sense to any of your clients,
:02:37. > :02:45.and it does not make sense that the only people it seems to make them is
:02:45. > :02:47.to is Google. You are the last man standing on this. I don't recognise
:02:47. > :02:51.the characterisation you paint. You have written number of points and I
:02:51. > :02:57.would like to deal with them in turn. It is true that the people
:02:57. > :03:01.dealing with customers in the UK, the 1% of customers who see UK
:03:01. > :03:08.Google staff, are incentivised to encourage people to spend money with
:03:08. > :03:13.Google. That is appropriate. Therefore, they do have targets that
:03:13. > :03:18.include the growth of the business they are responsible for a cross a
:03:18. > :03:25.range of industry sectors. So it is true that people have targets. Many
:03:25. > :03:29.countries incentivised staff to grow the business.
:03:29. > :03:35.That was the boss of Google. You can tell he is the boss, he does not
:03:35. > :03:38.have a tie, even when he goes to the Commons. Obviously, people are
:03:39. > :03:44.paying taxes to the hilt. They hate it when these rich companies make a
:03:44. > :03:51.tonne of money out of us and are not paying their fair whack. I right in
:03:51. > :03:54.thinking, though, that people are less upset with Google that they are
:03:54. > :03:57.with Starbucks? You are right. It is incredibly interesting. If you look
:03:57. > :04:02.at Google's corporate reputation and track it over time, it has barely
:04:02. > :04:07.taken a hit over this period. It is still scoring highly. By contrast,
:04:07. > :04:12.Starbucks has gone off the edge of a cliff. If you think about why that
:04:12. > :04:16.might be, I think it is about the extent to which a company has
:04:16. > :04:19.managed to store up some reputational capital. If you seem to
:04:19. > :04:24.be a good corporate citizen to the public, then when something goes
:04:24. > :04:28.wrong, you have something to draw on. That is where Google is now. It
:04:28. > :04:34.remains to be seen if they can keep things that way, but they are doing
:04:34. > :04:38.OK. It could also be that Starbucks charge for quid per coffee. Whereas
:04:38. > :04:46.Google is free. Which is why people like it. The high street is full of
:04:46. > :04:51.other coffee shops. And there are other search engines, but Google
:04:51. > :04:54.dominates. And they seem to provide a good service. It will be
:04:54. > :04:58.interesting to see what happens over time. Talking to somebody who works
:04:58. > :05:03.at Google off the record last week, she said to me that the staff there
:05:03. > :05:09.were very upset by this. They think they are working for a great
:05:09. > :05:14.company, and when something goes wrong, it rocks their confidence.
:05:14. > :05:18.the upset is more internal than external. Staff morale is not good.
:05:18. > :05:21.Now, time for our quiz. We all know the British consumers
:05:21. > :05:26.abroad offers welcome assistance to travellers who are in trouble, but
:05:26. > :05:31.the foreign office is warning that there are some things it cannot help
:05:31. > :05:41.with, like telling them when spring is going to happen. Which of these
:05:41. > :05:42.
:05:42. > :05:48.have they not been asked to assist with? Silencing a nosy cockerel,
:05:48. > :05:51.recommending the best place to watch football, ordering a husband to get
:05:51. > :05:55.fit and eat healthily so he and his wife and have children, or
:05:55. > :05:59.requesting an audience with the Pope? At the end of the show, Debra
:05:59. > :06:03.will have a stab at getting the correct answer.
:06:04. > :06:08.Now, it will come as no surprise to read your viewers, all three of you,
:06:08. > :06:12.to learn that last night, half of all Conservative backbenchers voted
:06:12. > :06:15.to criticise David Cameron's Queen's Speech for failing to propose a
:06:15. > :06:19.European Union referendum. Maybe they forgot they are part of a
:06:19. > :06:29.coalition government in which the other country is the most Europhile
:06:29. > :06:30.
:06:30. > :06:34.of British parties. But memories are short these days, so here is a
:06:34. > :06:36.flavour of the debate. For too long, the electorate has not been able to
:06:36. > :06:38.express its opinion on the changing nature of our relationship. The
:06:38. > :06:44.political establishment has closed ranks over the last 30 years and
:06:44. > :06:49.denied the electorate a choice. We now have a golden opportunity to
:06:49. > :06:55.right this wrong. We should be bold of heart, seize the moment and do
:06:55. > :07:02.what is right by the electorate and by the country. I therefore intend
:07:02. > :07:07.to move this amendment. Those who voted UKIP and are likely to vote
:07:07. > :07:11.UKIP in next year's European elections will not be impressed
:07:11. > :07:16.unless we are making every effort to have a referendum as soon as
:07:16. > :07:20.possible, rather than when it suits the three main political parties for
:07:20. > :07:27.whatever reason that we want to put it off. The reason why it is
:07:27. > :07:31.essential that we hold this referendum urgently is because the
:07:31. > :07:39.changes in the relationship will enable us to disentangle ourselves
:07:39. > :07:45.from the spiders web which we have become caught up in without asking
:07:45. > :07:48.the British people since 1975 has got to be dealt with. It is a vital
:07:48. > :07:55.question of national interest, and IBEC members of Parliament to
:07:55. > :07:59.listen. The party opposite claims to be the party of business. And a key
:07:59. > :08:03.hate for business is prolonged economic uncertainty. And now we are
:08:03. > :08:09.telling inward investors we might leave the EU, but we will let them
:08:09. > :08:14.know in four years' time. Japanese, American, European inward investors
:08:14. > :08:19.all make it clear that they are in the UK because the UK is in the EU.
:08:19. > :08:24.Millions of jobs are at stake. A semi-detached status like
:08:24. > :08:27.Switzerland and Norway means being banned by EE decisions without
:08:27. > :08:33.having a voice. I gather that it is likely that an amendment may be
:08:33. > :08:40.moved in another place today, regretting the absence of any
:08:40. > :08:45.mention of this in the gracious speech. I of course would not
:08:45. > :08:53.presume to give advice to my right honourable and honourable friends in
:08:53. > :08:59.that place. But if I may venture an opinion, what is needed is a
:08:59. > :09:09.thorough debate about the momentous issues, political and economic, and
:09:09. > :09:13.this will not be assisted by an necessary and pointless votes.
:09:13. > :09:19.That was Nigel Lawson. More of him later. With us now, the man who
:09:19. > :09:23.proposed yesterday's bill, John Barron. 116 Conservative MPs voted
:09:23. > :09:27.for your amendment. What have you achieved?
:09:27. > :09:31.We have achieved the fact that the party has declared that it would
:09:31. > :09:36.support a private member's bill. This was not on the table a week
:09:36. > :09:40.ago. I would like to have won. Had we managed to carry the day, the
:09:40. > :09:44.headlines this morning would have said Tories united, labour and
:09:44. > :09:50.liberals in disarray, and we would have advanced the cause. So
:09:50. > :09:56.disappointed that we did not win. instead, the Tories are disunited.
:09:56. > :10:01.We are united on one thing. We also bought a 2017 in-out referendum. No
:10:01. > :10:06.doubt about that. But how do you best convince the electorate that we
:10:06. > :10:10.are serious about it? When you knock on the doors, there is deep public
:10:10. > :10:16.mistrust when people hear politicians making promises. So many
:10:16. > :10:20.have been broken in the past. So how do we convince them? Only 1% of
:10:20. > :10:27.people think Europe is the most important issue facing Britain, but
:10:27. > :10:31.you lot are banging on about it. tend to disagree. Where does the
:10:31. > :10:36.economy and immigration come on that? You cannot talk about
:10:36. > :10:39.immigration and the economy without also talking about Europe. Vandalism
:10:39. > :10:47.comes higher. Europe is the 12th most important issue if you ask
:10:47. > :10:51.people to list the most important issues. But Europe transcends a
:10:51. > :10:57.number of issues. If you talk about immigration, you are talking about
:10:57. > :11:02.Europe. But how do you best convince the electorate that we are serious?
:11:02. > :11:06.Legislation is more believable than election manifesto promises.
:11:06. > :11:11.given that you did not win the last election, you don't have the
:11:11. > :11:17.majority in the Commons for legislation. But if we had won the
:11:17. > :11:22.mandate last night, if the party had rallied round, we could have gone to
:11:22. > :11:29.the Liberals and said look, Parliament has spoken. Now give us
:11:29. > :11:36.more time. That might have given us more leverage than simply asking the
:11:36. > :11:42.Liberals for more than. But your party did not rally round. It was
:11:42. > :11:46.divided. It was not divided. Nobody voted against the amendment. But
:11:46. > :11:55.yes, you don't table an amendment unless you hope to win it, and I am
:11:55. > :12:00.sorry that we did not win it. Miliband's lead in the polls is not
:12:00. > :12:04.great or robust. If you believe the governor of the Bank of England,
:12:04. > :12:07.there are signs that the economy is on the rise. You could step back a
:12:07. > :12:17.bit and say actually, things aren't so bad for the Tory party and the
:12:17. > :12:21.coalition at the moment. So why are you inflicting damage on the pie
:12:21. > :12:25.Minister? You say damage, but we have nudged the party closer to the
:12:25. > :12:28.electorate. One week ago, we had no party support for a private members'
:12:28. > :12:37.bills. We had no publication of the bill itself. Those are steps
:12:37. > :12:46.forward. Do you not deny that it damages the prime minister? People
:12:46. > :12:51.do not like divided parties. They see the division is taking place.
:12:51. > :12:54.This week, you had Peter Mandelson almost confirming a Tory urban myth
:12:54. > :12:59.at one stage that Labour was good grooming immigrants into this
:12:59. > :13:05.country, is usually to your advantage. No one covered it,
:13:05. > :13:09.because you were all banging on about Europe. But Europe is an
:13:09. > :13:15.important subject to many people. We have achieved a lot in the last
:13:15. > :13:18.week. The prime minister has decided to go down the road of a private
:13:18. > :13:25.member's bill. We will support him in that and let's see if we can get
:13:25. > :13:30.it through, but it is second-best to what happened last night. Deborah,
:13:30. > :13:36.tell him about the polls. It is really not important to many people.
:13:36. > :13:40.It has not made it into double figures in a decade, Europe. 7% say
:13:40. > :13:45.it is one of the more important things. The public will be looking
:13:45. > :13:49.at the Conservative Party and Bebo will did. They feel the country is
:13:49. > :13:58.facing lots of problems. They are worried about how to pay the bills,
:13:58. > :14:01.they are worried about the NHS and a whole bunch of things. And they see
:14:01. > :14:04.two things, a party that seems to be talking about something they don't
:14:04. > :14:09.care much about, and they see a party at war with itself. Actually,
:14:09. > :14:14.we are more united as a party that we have probably been for a
:14:14. > :14:22.generation. We all signed up to the 2017 referendum. That is not how it
:14:22. > :14:31.looks. We disagree on how best you convince the electorate that we are
:14:31. > :14:35.serious. In your view, what happens next? We will rally round and
:14:35. > :14:40.support this private member's bill. I hope we can get it through, but
:14:40. > :14:44.history suggests that a determined minority can block it. My worry is
:14:44. > :14:47.that we have raised expectations again and then failed to deliver.
:14:47. > :14:51.Unless the Liberals and Labour change their mind and let this
:14:51. > :14:56.private members' bills through all the whips have a devious plan, and I
:14:56. > :15:02.hope they have, I am afraid it will fail. So you have hit a dead end.
:15:02. > :15:06.That is why I was pushing the amendment last night. Had we won
:15:06. > :15:12.it, and the maths do stack up, we could have knocked on the door of
:15:12. > :15:17.the Liberals and said, Parliament has spoken. Give us more time.
:15:17. > :15:20.likelihood is that this train is going to hit the buffers. It is,
:15:20. > :15:26.unfortunately, because most of private members' bills do. Don't get
:15:26. > :15:36.me wrong, I hope it succeeds. But it is the best option. Come back and
:15:36. > :15:46.
:15:46. > :15:50.give us updates, for free. I will! unfolding at Westminster have been
:15:50. > :15:55.followed closely understandably by politicians here in Europe. With
:15:55. > :16:01.some bemusement, I understand. And my two guests have also been
:16:01. > :16:06.following it closely. Sharon Bow le s and a Conservative MEP have come
:16:06. > :16:09.to talk about it. First of all, would you describe it as an edifying
:16:09. > :16:12.spectacle that has been displayed by your Parliamentary colleagues over
:16:12. > :16:18.the issue of Europe? I think it's important that we realise that in
:16:18. > :16:22.Britain there is a debate, a real debate taking place... Only in the
:16:22. > :16:26.Conservative Party. No, it's in the nation. It has to be reflected in
:16:26. > :16:30.Parliament. What would be dishonest if sitting with our partners here in
:16:30. > :16:32.Europe saying to them that the leadership is dealing with all our
:16:32. > :16:36.European issues and there's no debate in the United Kingdom. We
:16:36. > :16:40.have to be up front and have all the cards on the table so we can go into
:16:40. > :16:45.a mature debate in the UK and a set of reforms here in the European
:16:45. > :16:51.Union. Would you have supported the amendment that regretted the absence
:16:51. > :16:55.of any legislation for a referendum? I completely support a thorough
:16:55. > :16:58.programme of discussion within the United Kingdom about our
:16:58. > :17:03.relationship with the European Union, that is one of the steps
:17:03. > :17:08.along the way to achieving that overall reform agenda. If there were
:17:08. > :17:13.a referendum tomorrow, would you back out or in? We aren't going have
:17:13. > :17:16.a referendum tomorrow. Are you out or in? A referendum will ultimately
:17:16. > :17:20.take place, every Conservative in the land is signed up to that. As
:17:21. > :17:24.and when it does take place, I will be campaigning for a Yes vote along
:17:24. > :17:28.with the Prime Minister. The Liberal Democrats have been accused of
:17:28. > :17:32.showing complete disdain to the voting public in Britain. They have,
:17:32. > :17:38.in effect, blocked paving legislation for a rove dome happen
:17:38. > :17:42.in 2017. Yes, we think this is totally the wrong time. We are
:17:42. > :17:47.potentially going to have a referendum on an unknown Unknown.
:17:47. > :17:51.This is not right. We thought it was right there should be a referendum
:17:51. > :17:57.if there is any further transfer of powers. I think the way the
:17:57. > :18:01.political time table works with the next time German and French
:18:01. > :18:04.elections it's likely something might happen by 2017. To fix
:18:04. > :18:10.something in stone when you don't actually know what the result is
:18:10. > :18:14.seems to be wrong and it would certainly be wrong to have some kind
:18:14. > :18:17.of in/out referendum now when we've not had any debate in Parliament and
:18:17. > :18:22.don't have enough debates in Westminster about what is actually
:18:22. > :18:26.going on in Europe in the different policy areas. Everybody is ignorant.
:18:26. > :18:30.What do you think your colleagues here in Brussels have thought of
:18:30. > :18:34.what's gone on at home in Westminster? Some actually are quite
:18:34. > :18:38.understanding because we are all politicians and they understand that
:18:38. > :18:41.they have problems within their own parties at times. Others are a
:18:41. > :18:46.little bit surprised. They certainly don't want to be black mailed and
:18:46. > :18:50.that's the message. I think they understand when you get these
:18:50. > :18:54.political troubles within a party, but they're aghast that we might do
:18:54. > :19:00.something by mistake and come out of Europe from a point of ignorance.
:19:00. > :19:02.Vince Cable today has said the Conservative Party is plunging
:19:02. > :19:06.Britain into a period of dreadful uncertainty from a business
:19:06. > :19:10.perspective. Not at all. We've been clear about what we want to achieve
:19:10. > :19:14.here. We've put in place a review in the United Kingdom. That's under
:19:14. > :19:18.way. We are leading on a reform programme in the European Union.
:19:18. > :19:22.Ultimately we will have a referendum. You don't agree with
:19:22. > :19:25.Nigel Lawson that it's pointless to have a renegotiation? You have a
:19:25. > :19:29.clear set of stages that have been set out for the British people now.
:19:29. > :19:33.It's important that we stick to that and we actually have a mature debate
:19:33. > :19:40.rather than simply mud slinging as is what is happening in certain
:19:40. > :19:45.quarters as well. Thank you both very much. Back to you Andrew.
:19:45. > :19:47.As if by magic we're joined by the former Conservative Chancellor Nigel
:19:47. > :19:53.Lawson. Welcome back to the programme. I hear you've been
:19:53. > :19:58.causing trouble. Never. You know me, I never cause trouble. I read it.
:19:58. > :20:02.You can't believe what you read in the newspapers. Now, in the Lords
:20:02. > :20:08.yesterday we had a clip of it before you came on, you said the EU
:20:08. > :20:12.campaign would not be assisted by "a necessary and pointless votes". Uals
:20:12. > :20:15.yesterday's Commons vote pointless? Yes, I think it was. I think it is
:20:16. > :20:21.the fact that everybody is now, of course it will go away because
:20:21. > :20:25.somebody once said a week is a long time in politics. But I mean, it
:20:25. > :20:29.will go away. For the moment now, instead of discussing the issues,
:20:29. > :20:33.and there are some important issues there on both sides, good arguments
:20:33. > :20:38.to be made and I've entered the fray setting out the stall as I see it.
:20:38. > :20:40.Instead of focussing on the issues what they're doing is talking about
:20:40. > :20:45.the Conservative pitch, nothing else. That's why I thought it was
:20:45. > :20:53.foolish. Did you, when you wrote this art actual in the Times, which
:20:53. > :20:56.was more than a pebble in a small pond, did you expect it to ramp up
:20:56. > :21:01.the pressure on the Prime Minister as much as it has? I hoped,
:21:01. > :21:10.obviously, it would make an impact. If one's writing something one hopes
:21:10. > :21:14.it will make an impact. But what I did have a negotiation with the
:21:14. > :21:18.Times, not only the fee but over the length of the piece. Because it was
:21:18. > :21:23.longer than they normally do. They were reluctant. I said I wouldn't do
:21:23. > :21:33.it unless you give me 2,000 words because it's a complicatedish up and
:21:33. > :21:37.I want to sell -- comploted issue and I want to set it out properly.
:21:37. > :21:41.Did you alert Downing Street before? I am just an independent
:21:41. > :21:47.backbencher, old man with a past and no future. I'm not interested in
:21:47. > :21:52.preferment. All the violins are playing. Let me put to you what the
:21:52. > :21:57.Prime Minister responded to your pessimism about the likely lack of
:21:57. > :22:00.success in renegotiation. He said, " We shouldn't give up before
:22:00. > :22:03.negotiation has started. It seems an extraordinary way to go about
:22:03. > :22:11.things. The idea of throwing in the towel before the negotiation has
:22:11. > :22:14.started. -- started is a very strange opinion.". I think he
:22:14. > :22:19.misunderstood. I wasn't saying he shouldn't try to negotiate. Good
:22:19. > :22:23.luck to him. I was saying what in my judgment and experience is likely to
:22:23. > :22:26.be the outcome. Do you say to the Conservatives who sat in that chair,
:22:26. > :22:30.Sir Malcom Rifkind included, saying ah, they all said that when Maggie
:22:30. > :22:34.went to get our rebate back which was one against whatever number it
:22:34. > :22:40.was. No-one gave her a chance. Even the Foreign Office and she did it.
:22:40. > :22:44.She did extremely well. But that was a simple issue. This is immensely
:22:44. > :22:48.complicated. It would, nobody I know, I know a lot of people within
:22:48. > :22:53.the European institutions, I know people who have formally served in
:22:53. > :22:58.the European institutions, none of them expect that any major change is
:22:58. > :23:05.negotiable. We all remember the last time a Prime Minister tried that,
:23:05. > :23:11.Harold Wilson in the 1970s, and the concession,if you like, that he
:23:11. > :23:15.managed to secure, was so in, not even you can remember what they
:23:15. > :23:21.were. No, that's true. Actually I can remember one of them was to do
:23:21. > :23:25.with agriculture. The difference there was too that other thinned
:23:26. > :23:30.morning star and the Daily Express every newspaper was in favour of us
:23:30. > :23:33.staying in. They conspired to make it seem a big deal that he had done
:23:33. > :23:42.enough to get the vote. That's right. It was a very time... Time.
:23:42. > :23:49.It won't happen this time. No. This time, the press are divided. I think
:23:49. > :23:56.the people are rather more sceptical. There are people on both
:23:56. > :24:02.sides where it was the only people on the other side that time were
:24:02. > :24:06.Enoch Powell and Tony Benn who are both very good ortors but people
:24:06. > :24:10.didn't trust them very much. It is going to be different this time. I
:24:10. > :24:15.think the issues are different. I voted in favour of staying in In
:24:15. > :24:18.1975. But since the coming of the single currency, the euro, and the
:24:18. > :24:24.creation of the eurozone, and the political consequences of that, the
:24:24. > :24:27.whole nature has changed. Therefore I thoroughly support the Prime
:24:27. > :24:36.Minister in his decision that we should have a referendum in 2017.
:24:36. > :24:40.Just to claireify, you -- Klairify, you support the current strategy of
:24:40. > :24:45.the Prime Minister to try to get reelected as an overall Government,
:24:45. > :24:48.go to renegotiate in Europe and put that renegotiate in an in-out
:24:48. > :24:52.referendum. You just don't think you'll get very far in the
:24:52. > :24:58.renegotiation? That's right. I don't think he will achieve anything
:24:58. > :25:02.substantial. I think there will be extreme reluctance to offer anything
:25:02. > :25:06.substantial. There will be extreme reluctance to offering to us alone
:25:06. > :25:10.because other countries will say what about us and so on. With the
:25:10. > :25:15.best will in the world, I don't think it's on. I think if the
:25:15. > :25:21.British people see that no fault of his but because they're not prepared
:25:21. > :25:26.to yield, it takes two sides to do a deal, if the British people see that
:25:26. > :25:29.he's really come back with an empty bucket of goodies then I don't think
:25:29. > :25:35.they're going to be fooled in the way they were with the Wilson
:25:35. > :25:39.episode. This issue could face Labour and the Lib Dems as well. If
:25:39. > :25:43.the eurozone, I've come back from Europe where the talk is what kind
:25:43. > :25:48.of political, fiscal union do they need to make the eurozone work now,
:25:48. > :25:53.that will inevitably involve treaty change and we could need a
:25:53. > :25:57.referendum any way for this treaty change. That's absolutely right.
:25:57. > :26:03.That is slightly different because the referendum will only be about do
:26:03. > :26:08.you agree with the particular things in this new treaty. Rather than
:26:08. > :26:11.in-out. Yes. The eurozone cannot become an ever closer union to quote
:26:11. > :26:15.the treaty of Rome without that having consequences of Britain and
:26:15. > :26:17.changing our relationship any way. Yes, absolutely. And people want a
:26:18. > :26:20.referendum. I mean there's no question about that. Having said
:26:20. > :26:27.that they'd like a referendum on everything. They like the idea of
:26:27. > :26:32.having their say. As Mr Atly once said, " We expect a period of quiet
:26:32. > :26:35.from you now? I should think, so for a little while. Next time you have
:26:35. > :26:40.anything to say, come back and see us. Thank you very much.Nigel
:26:40. > :26:43.Lawson. Where next for the EU Referendum Bill? Let's look at an
:26:43. > :26:49.ancient Parliamentary procedure looks a lot like bingo and it
:26:49. > :26:54.occurred this morning. 20 names were drawn in reverse order in the
:26:54. > :27:04.private members ballot. Number one... The last but not least and
:27:04. > :27:20.
:27:20. > :27:25.the winner of the day is- shake them up, David- 199. James W had a rton.
:27:25. > :27:30.-- Wharton. Order, order that concludes the proceedings.
:27:30. > :27:33.winner James Wharton joins us now. Congratulations, what will your bill
:27:34. > :27:37.be? I'm going to take forward the Conservative Party draft bill on
:27:37. > :27:43.legislating for a referendum on our relationship with the European Union
:27:43. > :27:46.by the end of 2017. OK, but yesterday you blamed colleagues who
:27:46. > :27:50."enjoy the limelight for allowing the debate about Europe to crowd out
:27:50. > :27:54.discussion of other topics" what happened? I think that's the point.
:27:54. > :27:57.We've been talking about Europe a lot in recent weeks and it keeps
:27:57. > :28:00.coming to the surface and being debated. Most of my constituents
:28:00. > :28:05.want me to talk about the cost of living, education, hospitals, things
:28:05. > :28:08.that matter to them. Why don't you do a bill on that? Because this
:28:08. > :28:13.European issue hangs over so many aspects of British life and
:28:13. > :28:16.political debate, I think it's time that we resolve it and MPs of all
:28:16. > :28:20.political persuasions should be given their opportunity to vote to
:28:20. > :28:24.have their say on whether we believe we should have a referendum or not.
:28:24. > :28:28.I hope when it's done it can put this issue to bed and focus on the
:28:29. > :28:31.other issues that matter deeply to the constituents. Have you spoken to
:28:31. > :28:35.the whips or do they speak to you in advance about this choice of
:28:35. > :28:39.subject? They didn't speak to me in advance. But I have spoken to the
:28:39. > :28:42.whips. Given the debate over the last couple of of weeks any
:28:42. > :28:46.Conservative MP was high up the private members ballot was expected
:28:46. > :28:51.this is what they would take forward, a very important issue that
:28:51. > :28:56.needs to be resolved. Clarify, the Conservative whips want you to take
:28:56. > :28:59.this bill forward? They haven't formally said they want me to do it,
:28:59. > :29:03.I've had discussions and they're supportive, as are colleagues across
:29:03. > :29:07.the party. I should say colleagues from different parties as well. I've
:29:07. > :29:12.had a stream of text messages, e-mails and calls from MPs wanting
:29:12. > :29:15.to support the bills, not just Conservatives, but in the Opposition
:29:15. > :29:20.too. It's important that people are given the opportunity to have their
:29:20. > :29:25.say. You know, this isn't the end of the story by bringing this forward.
:29:25. > :29:29.This just kicks the story further down the road and puts more strain
:29:29. > :29:33.on the coalition, that's all it does. Your bill's never going to
:29:33. > :29:37.become law but it will continue to stir things up in the coalition?
:29:37. > :29:43.That depends on what happens when this is brought before the floor of
:29:43. > :29:47.the House. I hope MPs will be given the chance to vote with their
:29:47. > :29:51.consciences and to agree or not. The Liberal Democrats promised an in-out
:29:51. > :29:54.referendum in the manifesto at the last election. Nick Clegg has a bad
:29:54. > :29:57.reputation for going back on his promises. I hope he won't go back on
:29:57. > :30:02.this one and think again about his positions. Any indication that's the
:30:02. > :30:06.Government will make time for this? My understands is that it can only
:30:06. > :30:10.make time if all the coalition agrees and they don't. That's one of
:30:10. > :30:13.the challenges. You don't necessarily need Government time if
:30:13. > :30:19.you get it through in Private Members' Bill time. It's helpful if
:30:19. > :30:22.the Government time table scope for debate on this. That can only be
:30:22. > :30:25.done with both sides agreeing. The indication shows that's not likely
:30:25. > :30:29.to happen. The Liberal Democrats promised they would support a
:30:29. > :30:33.referendum. I want to hold them to that promise. If they don't, it will
:30:33. > :30:37.be another promise they have broken. I don't think people will look
:30:37. > :30:39.kindly on it, whatever the view of Europe. You came first in the
:30:39. > :30:45.Parliamentary bingo, are you buying a lottery ticket this weekend? As
:30:45. > :30:48.tempted as I am, I don't know if aisle Sree time. I was going back to
:30:48. > :30:52.my constituency today for a busy day, which has been rescheduled
:30:52. > :30:56.because of all that's taken place this morning. You're already
:30:56. > :30:59.neglected his constituency in pursuit of this. We've had to
:30:59. > :31:03.reschedule a number of things, I'll be there over the weekend but I'm
:31:03. > :31:05.not sure about the lottery ticket. I'm sure you can find the time. My
:31:05. > :31:15.I'm sure you can find the time. My I'm sure you can find the time. My
:31:15. > :31:21.
:31:21. > :31:24.I'm sure you can find the time. My are joining us. They have been
:31:24. > :31:29.watching first Minister's Questions in Hollywood and now join us on the
:31:29. > :31:35.Daily Politics. Now for something completely different.
:31:35. > :31:37.Brian Mawhinney's greatest hits. At five, Brian, the boy from Belfast,
:31:37. > :31:43.became a Conservative minister in the Northern Ireland since in the
:31:43. > :31:48.early 90s. A decision was made to bring extra troops to the province.
:31:48. > :31:54.At four, he had his demonise on labour as chairman of the
:31:54. > :32:01.Conservative Party. At three, he took to the beat as shadow home
:32:01. > :32:05.secretary. At two, the early noughties saw him kicking off his
:32:05. > :32:10.career in the beautiful game as chairman of the football league.
:32:10. > :32:15.These clubs understand the realities and want to move football forward
:32:15. > :32:22.under the umbrella of good governance. And that one, in 2005,
:32:22. > :32:32.he donned the ermine, and the boy from Belfast became a barren.
:32:32. > :32:32.
:32:32. > :32:38.And Brian Mawhinney is here. When you see some of that, would you
:32:38. > :32:47.agree that politics has changed a lot? Yes, it has. For better or
:32:47. > :32:56.worse? Truthfully, I think the jury is out. There is a lot more
:32:56. > :33:00.information available now in all sorts of new media. I am not sure
:33:00. > :33:07.that Parliament has come to terms with how important all of that is.
:33:07. > :33:10.Should it be more important? Should it be just another manifestation of
:33:10. > :33:16.what is old timers used to know by talking to people day in and day
:33:16. > :33:23.out? The idea that MPs now know a lot more about what the public
:33:23. > :33:27.thinks, I am not sure that is accurate. At least we are good MPs.
:33:27. > :33:33.One thing that has not changed is that Tory leaders asked in a pickle
:33:33. > :33:39.over Europe. If you will forgive me saying so, it is deja vu all over
:33:39. > :33:45.again. Would you have any advice, having lived through all this, for
:33:45. > :33:50.Mr Cameron? This may ruin my reputation, but I want to agree with
:33:50. > :33:56.what you were saying over Europe. What was that? That Europe is not
:33:56. > :34:06.the big issue. The big issue is the economy. The economy embraces the
:34:06. > :34:16.issue of Europe. The single currency, the movement toward data
:34:16. > :34:17.
:34:17. > :34:22.unity, all of those affect us. Business in the countries of Europe
:34:22. > :34:27.is not going well at the moment. That affect us. I am not trying to
:34:27. > :34:34.say Europe is irrelevant, but Europe is primarily important in the
:34:34. > :34:38.context of the economy, which is the number one issue. Which is your
:34:38. > :34:42.point. And immigration as well. But people are bill will did about why
:34:42. > :34:48.politicians spend so much time talking about it. It feels very out
:34:48. > :34:51.of touch to them. But your party have a problem they did not have in
:34:51. > :34:56.your day, which is that they have this substantial challenge from the
:34:56. > :35:00.right now. Mrs Thatcher never left room for a challenge from the right
:35:00. > :35:05.on most issues. And if one materialised, it quickly petered
:35:05. > :35:14.out. We have seen the latest polls today, and UKIP is on a roll.
:35:14. > :35:18.agree again with you, in the sense that it is part of the job of
:35:18. > :35:25.Conservative leadership to make sure that they can't be passed on the
:35:25. > :35:30.right. Where they want to place themselves on the spectrum, I have
:35:30. > :35:34.always been, as I suspect you know, somebody who believes that you win
:35:34. > :35:41.elections by being fairly close to the centre. You can't get elected on
:35:41. > :35:48.a core vote of 30%. Excuse me, but I am an expert. You have got to
:35:48. > :35:55.broaden the base towards the centre. Leadership needs to make
:35:55. > :36:03.sure you can't be passed on the right. Where it puts itself is a
:36:03. > :36:06.matter for political judgement. We are seeing a certain amount of
:36:06. > :36:09.movement at the moment. I am old-fashioned enough to believe that
:36:10. > :36:15.in two years' time, you will be spending less time talking about
:36:15. > :36:19.UKIP. They will love to hear you say that, because that is what they want
:36:19. > :36:25.you to think. Everybody says they want to win from the centre. The
:36:25. > :36:29.question is, whereas the? Mr Miliband thinks he has the party we
:36:29. > :36:33.want to see. Some people think Tony Blair and Margaret Thatcher have
:36:33. > :36:38.been able to define whether centre is themselves. It is interesting at
:36:38. > :36:41.the moment. If you ask people, whereas the centre, and where are
:36:42. > :36:46.the main parties, people now think the Conservative Party is further to
:36:46. > :36:54.the right than it used to be and the Labour Party is further to the left.
:36:54. > :36:57.Both are pulling away in the wrong direction. Let me tell you why I
:36:57. > :37:03.think your analysis is right. The reason UKIP won't be pleased to hear
:37:04. > :37:11.me say it is because I say it on the basis that they don't have a
:37:11. > :37:16.coherent little strategy or set of policies which will create, in the
:37:16. > :37:26.minds of people, people form a judgement about a party and a
:37:26. > :37:26.
:37:26. > :37:31.leader. They do not looked at 12 manifesto commitments. They look at
:37:31. > :37:37.people and how they behave and what the party is about, and they form a
:37:37. > :37:39.judgement. And when UKIP starts getting under the searchlight which
:37:39. > :37:47.you generously spread across the rest of the political parties week
:37:47. > :37:52.in and week out, I am not hopeful. What is the title of your book?
:37:52. > :37:58.a simple Belfast boy. In all good book shops. Thank you for being with
:37:59. > :38:03.They are ahead in the polls, they won a raft of seats in this month's
:38:03. > :38:07.local elections and their opponents are in turmoil over Europe. Despite
:38:07. > :38:11.these positives, a lot of critics are asking why it has gone wrong for
:38:11. > :38:20.labour and white Ed Miliband does not seem to be cutting through to
:38:20. > :38:24.the public. In an increasingly complicated
:38:24. > :38:28.political world, Ed Miliband is going back to basics and bringing
:38:28. > :38:35.back the soapbox. It is his way of showing he is down with the voters,
:38:35. > :38:42.and it did work for John Major. The only problem is that in Ed's case,
:38:42. > :38:46.the voters have yet to be convinced. The electorate does not see Ed
:38:46. > :38:50.Miliband as a potential prime minister at the moment. People
:38:50. > :38:53.preferred David Cameron as prime minister to Ed Miliband, because Ed
:38:53. > :38:59.Miliband is seen to lack the particular qualities a prime
:38:59. > :39:03.minister needs. It is a fantastic day for Mr Woodley. You should all
:39:03. > :39:09.buy Mr Wigley's ice cream today. despite the coalition's best
:39:09. > :39:14.efforts, Labour's poll could do with some sprinkles. Our polls have shown
:39:15. > :39:20.Labour ahead for ten points for most of the year. But recently, it has
:39:20. > :39:23.been more like seven points. Labour are not sufficiently far ahead for
:39:23. > :39:27.the party to be confident of winning the next election. The rise of UKIP
:39:27. > :39:32.and the SNP mean that we now have in effect for party politics, so maybe
:39:32. > :39:38.those big old Leeds are a thing of the past. No party has won an
:39:38. > :39:42.immediate outright majority in 80 years. So are people asking too much
:39:42. > :39:47.of Ed? You have to hang on a minute. We did lose that last
:39:48. > :39:51.general election, so we had to regroup but we are already topping
:39:51. > :40:01.the polls, although to read some papers, you would not believe that.
:40:01. > :40:03.We bring better than UKIP, contrary to the reports you here, and we are
:40:03. > :40:06.winning in all parts of the country, whether that is hollow or Hastings.
:40:06. > :40:15.We have a message that appeals broadly across the country. But that
:40:15. > :40:21.kind of thinking actually frightens Labour's internal critics. The real
:40:21. > :40:27.danger is that the people around Ed Dick they can somehow get there on
:40:27. > :40:31.one more heave, that they can cross the line with a final surge of
:40:31. > :40:35.disaffected Lib Dem voters and Labour's core vote to give them the
:40:35. > :40:40.majority they need. But all the evidence is that you have to reach
:40:40. > :40:45.way beyond your base. But how? Labour and Ed Miliband need to start
:40:45. > :40:49.taking risks. When Tony Blair was leader of the opposition in the 90s,
:40:49. > :40:53.Labour had a huge poll lead and Tony Blair was rightly very defensive and
:40:53. > :40:59.reassuring. He did not want to lose that Labour vote. Ed Miliband does
:40:59. > :41:03.not have a beginner lead to operate a defensive strategy. It is like a
:41:03. > :41:08.football club a goal down at half-time. It needs to go on the
:41:08. > :41:13.attack and take risks and be bolder. That tone could then help deal with
:41:13. > :41:17.the other problems to do with economic competence and perceptions
:41:17. > :41:20.of Ed Miliband's leadership. needs to speak a language that
:41:20. > :41:25.people can understand. All this talk of predators versus producers and
:41:25. > :41:29.all of the jargon may have some coherent ideas behind it, but if you
:41:29. > :41:33.can't explain that across a garden fence, what is the point of it?
:41:33. > :41:37.There is no point being the cleverest man in the room if no one
:41:37. > :41:41.understands you. Convincing people you should be their leader is tough.
:41:41. > :41:46.Ed Miliband is certainly putting in the leg work. But at the moment, it
:41:46. > :41:51.seems the people are still looking for something more.
:41:51. > :41:55.I am joined now by Labour's shadow public health minister, Diane
:41:55. > :42:02.Abbott, and by the populist pollster, Ric Nye. Why is Labour
:42:02. > :42:10.doing so poorly? You can't judge everything by the latest round of
:42:10. > :42:13.local election results. They were elections in county seats. We forget
:42:14. > :42:22.history. I don't think Cameron was cutting through so well at this
:42:22. > :42:28.point. And he did not win the election. And there is that!She is
:42:28. > :42:36.already hitting me after being on for two minutes! Is Ed Miliband
:42:36. > :42:42.ready to be prime minister? 66% say no. That is partly reflecting what
:42:42. > :42:50.people have read in the media. They are too stupid to make up their own
:42:50. > :42:54.minds? No, but you know journalists affect how people think. And it is
:42:54. > :43:03.partly reflecting a lot of embittered David Miliband
:43:03. > :43:07.supporters. 54% think it is unlikely that he will be PM, and 66% don't
:43:07. > :43:12.think he is ready. I would suggest that the real weakness for Labour is
:43:12. > :43:15.that in national politics, if you put aside the issues in Wales,
:43:15. > :43:19.Scotland and Northern Ireland, but on the overall national issues, if
:43:19. > :43:24.you don't like this coalition, there was only one major party to vote
:43:24. > :43:29.for, which is Labour, because the Lib Dems are part of it. So the
:43:29. > :43:34.centre-left vote is not split any more. If you don't like what this
:43:34. > :43:39.lot are doing, vote Labour, and yet your party is still doing poorly.
:43:39. > :43:49.You will find that the Lib Dems will be better in the general election
:43:49. > :43:50.
:43:50. > :43:54.than those polls indicate. That was how they did so well in Eastleigh.
:43:55. > :44:00.We are confident that we will do better. The more that people meet Ed
:44:00. > :44:09.Miliband, the more persuaded they will be. Let me put a proposition to
:44:09. > :44:14.you. For this stage in the political cycle, Labour's poll lead is narrow
:44:14. > :44:20.and not robust. Discuss. It is comfortable in one sense, but very
:44:20. > :44:24.soft in another. A regular seven to ten point lead, depending on what
:44:24. > :44:32.poll you are looking at. But the dilemma for Labour is whether they
:44:32. > :44:35.stick or twist. Do they stay where they are, thinking that the Liberal
:44:35. > :44:44.Democrats -- disaffected Liberal Democrat voters will take them into
:44:44. > :44:49.the next election? Or do they just wait for it all to go wrong with the
:44:49. > :44:53.coalition, or do they start to take some strategic risks as your film
:44:53. > :44:56.suggested to flesh out the kind of prime minister that Ed Miliband
:44:56. > :45:02.would be? If I were a Labour strategist, I would be worried that
:45:02. > :45:06.the lead is not that great and seems a bit flaky. And yet we have just
:45:06. > :45:09.had three years of the most miserable economic news. Almost none
:45:09. > :45:14.of the coalition's economic indicators have come right, but now
:45:14. > :45:24.they look like they might be. Doesn't that make my lead, speaking
:45:24. > :45:33.
:45:33. > :45:39.as a virtual Labour strategist, even less robust? Clearly Labour is not
:45:39. > :45:45.doing well enough. No party... Has come back from this kind of...
:45:45. > :45:52.Why? I think they're not setting out their stall clearly enough. Is it
:45:52. > :45:54.not also that people do not see Mr Miliband as Prime Ministerial?
:45:54. > :45:58.Almost invariably you don't see someone as Prime Minister or
:45:58. > :46:00.president,if you like, until they are in that role. Soy don't think,
:46:00. > :46:05.he doesn't look like a Prime Minister, I don't buy that. I think
:46:05. > :46:11.just to pick up on what was said in the film, I actually don't think Ed
:46:11. > :46:15.Miliband himself believes in the one more heave theory. I think he feels
:46:15. > :46:23.he has to transform thinking. needs to do so much more than he's
:46:23. > :46:28.doing at the moment. Alan Johnson says he's showing too much in policy
:46:28. > :46:33.terms. I don't think it's policy, it's vision. People don't know what
:46:33. > :46:40.he stands for or believes in. vision, at least we know the
:46:40. > :46:44.direction, his vision is to lay out his stall on a kind of as yet
:46:44. > :46:48.undefined left which is maybe not left in the way old Labour was, but
:46:48. > :46:54.not left in the way that New Labour was either. What is the evidence
:46:54. > :46:57.that this country is moving left? Well, I think Ed Miliband himself
:46:57. > :47:02.wouldn't use the word left to describe his thinking. When you say
:47:02. > :47:06.what is the evidence that people are ready for a non-right-wing analysis,
:47:06. > :47:10.if you look at the polls one of the issues people are most angry about
:47:11. > :47:14.is bankers. This includes a lot of Tory voters. I think we can
:47:14. > :47:18.capitalise on that. That's what the Tories and Lib Dems are doing, what
:47:18. > :47:23.is the evidence other than the bankers, which everybody agrees
:47:23. > :47:28.with, it may be fair or unfair, but they, do what is the evidence that
:47:28. > :47:33.the general mood of the country has moved left. Because when I add up
:47:33. > :47:36.the Tory vote and UKIP vote it seems to me it's moving right. You seem to
:47:36. > :47:43.think that George Osborne's economic policies are going to succeed.
:47:43. > :47:47.not at all. I've never said that. That's not what Christine Legard at
:47:47. > :47:51.the IMF... What is the evidence that it's moving left? I think as the
:47:51. > :47:55.public has to watch in slow motion the collapse of Osborne's plans and
:47:55. > :47:59.as people understand the reality of these benefit cuts, I know they're
:47:59. > :48:04.very popular now, that's because they think it's applying to someone
:48:04. > :48:10.else, but the reality is that the country will move to Labour. A big
:48:10. > :48:16.if, if there was to be an economic recovery, of a tangible size, not a
:48:16. > :48:21.boom, but some kind of recovery that people felt it was getting better,
:48:21. > :48:26.you'd be skullered. If there was -- scuppered. If there was economic
:48:26. > :48:35.recovery, pigs would fly. So you're relying on that? I'm not relying on
:48:35. > :48:41.it. Your winning formula depends on the country going to hell in a hand
:48:41. > :48:45.basket? No, I'm saying that the things... Remember 1992.I do
:48:45. > :48:52.remember 1992 very vividly. didn't you win that? The economy was
:48:52. > :48:57.a basket case. There was the legacy of SDP and the rest of it. I am
:48:57. > :49:02.saying that as events move forward... You have UKIP to worry
:49:02. > :49:05.about. Yeah and they're having a nervous break down. In all the
:49:05. > :49:11.polling you do, what sense of direction do you get that the
:49:11. > :49:21.country is going in? I get the sense that the country is still feeling
:49:21. > :49:21.
:49:21. > :49:25.quite pessimistic about the future. What they don't feel is that Labour
:49:25. > :49:28.is the alternative has a vision for the future of the country. They know
:49:28. > :49:32.they're not the coalition. I'm not sure that is a sufficient condition
:49:32. > :49:37.for Labour to win the next election. That is absolutely right. They don't
:49:37. > :49:43.know enough about what Labour or Ed stands for. Ed's own ratings are OK
:49:43. > :49:50.but they're not good enough. People are less likely now to recognise him
:49:50. > :49:54.than a year ago. He's disappearing. Not a dangerous straighty for the
:49:54. > :50:00.Opposition that the economy's got to continue to stagnate? Even if it
:50:00. > :50:06.did, we saw in 1992, as we were just saying that people didn't turn,
:50:06. > :50:15.flock towards Labour, actually they thought I'm staying where I am, I'm
:50:15. > :50:21.scared. Were you surprised in '92? That was different. The polls were
:50:21. > :50:28.wrong. I'm talking about the crisis in masculinity in a few minutes.
:50:28. > :50:35.not got a job? I am the Shadow for public health. Do you want to hear
:50:35. > :50:39.about drug abuse or alcohol alcoholism, mental health? According
:50:39. > :50:42.to Dianne, men are not what they used to be. Have they over the years
:50:42. > :50:49.lost their way? Is it because women are so good at everything these
:50:49. > :50:53.days? Oar Kyle: The housewives find time
:50:53. > :51:00.between chores to tackle the job of brick laying, using old bricks
:51:00. > :51:10.they're building a wall and training come in useful. The only difference
:51:10. > :51:18.
:51:18. > :51:28.between mixing pastry and cement is housemaids knee. So a kneeling pad
:51:28. > :51:38.
:51:38. > :51:42.ones, the wall is a pretty good effort. Even an expert couldn't find
:51:42. > :51:52.fault with the way Joan taps the bricks into line, they're on the
:51:52. > :51:53.
:51:53. > :51:56.level. Here's something every
:51:56. > :51:59.self-respecting British workman stops for, a nice cup of tea.
:51:59. > :52:05.There's no time to relax, their husbands will soon be home and
:52:05. > :52:08.they're always so tired. Thanks to the Daily Politics team
:52:08. > :52:12.who shot that film this morning in North London. They just lost the
:52:12. > :52:15.colour code and Dianne here has been talking about men all morning. She
:52:15. > :52:19.often talks about men, but she's been talking about men in a speech
:52:19. > :52:24.this morning to a think-tank. It's called Demos. She's now joined by a
:52:24. > :52:28.man who likes to talk about men as well, Ian Collins from LBC. Good
:52:28. > :52:34.morning to you both. This crisis of masculinity, what is it I should be
:52:34. > :52:40.worried about? You're not worried Andrew because you're an Alpha male.
:52:40. > :52:44.But 90% of... Alpha male?90% of men are not. Society and the economy has
:52:44. > :52:50.changed in ways which challenge some of the certainties about what
:52:50. > :52:54.masculinity was. Some men, not just under-class men, but some men are
:52:54. > :52:57.challenged by that. I think we need to have a conversation about that.
:52:57. > :53:02.I've had so much response to this speech. I've only just delivered it.
:53:02. > :53:06.It's an issue people want to engage with. Are you challenged?
:53:06. > :53:09.confused, Andrew. That's the problem. Is the Labour frontbench so
:53:09. > :53:15.bereft of masculinity that the lovely Dianne had to be wheeled out
:53:15. > :53:21.for this one? What the heck happened there? I like to think that I've
:53:21. > :53:28.seen every variant of masculine identity... The on the Labour
:53:28. > :53:32.frontbench? MPs exhibit every type of patriarchal behaviour that you
:53:32. > :53:37.want to see. You feel every year something like this comes up, that
:53:37. > :53:44.men are challenged, that men aren't macho niche. Nothing's changed
:53:45. > :53:49.really. Things have changed. I think men of my father's generation saw
:53:49. > :53:54.you know defined themselves as men by earning and providing and
:53:54. > :53:59.protecting. I think in a new economy, where the sorts of jobs
:53:59. > :54:05.which traditionally blue collar men didn't do no longer exist was more
:54:05. > :54:08.service oriented. Increasingly we see young men who define themselves
:54:09. > :54:14.by conspicuous consumption and materialism. I think that can be
:54:14. > :54:17.problematic. I'm not saying I like the black and white film we just
:54:17. > :54:21.saw, there was a golden era for men. But I am saying that people want to
:54:21. > :54:25.talk about what is the definition of masculinity when it's no longer
:54:25. > :54:29.about earning and providing zpl. What does Britain think men? I think
:54:29. > :54:34.that men have changed. I think they've changed for the better on
:54:34. > :54:38.the whole. I think that most men would expect now to have more to do
:54:38. > :54:41.with their children than they did a generation ago. They expect to do
:54:41. > :54:46.more house work than they did a generation ago. You say that, but
:54:46. > :54:51.you're talking about the men you know. I'm not.I'm talking about men
:54:51. > :54:53.in Hackney and the kind of men in families studies Whose life is more
:54:54. > :54:58.uncertain than it would have been in the days when London was a shipping
:54:58. > :55:03.port. That's my point. It's just an evolution. Things change. It doesn't
:55:03. > :55:07.mean there's a crisis. I'm a socialist. I believe in change. Buff
:55:07. > :55:12.actually, even though people are less... You're a socialist? You're
:55:12. > :55:16.in the Labour Party. Even though people are less homophobic at a
:55:16. > :55:20.certain level, you see more gross and aggressive, violent homophobia
:55:20. > :55:23.on the streets and on estates than you saw when I was a child. Not
:55:23. > :55:29.everything has got better. mention technology and one of the
:55:29. > :55:33.elements you were talking about was the pornification of males, that
:55:33. > :55:39.we're dealing with that at the moment. These things usually exist
:55:39. > :55:42.within a very small minority of men. No. It is part of an evolution. We
:55:42. > :55:45.don't send blokes down pits any more. People get use to theed idea
:55:45. > :55:50.that the work place has changed. The structure socially has changed. It's
:55:50. > :55:55.a different kind of bloke. It's not a minority of men and boys. The
:55:55. > :56:00.average age of boys doing hard core, I don't mean girls, hard core porn
:56:00. > :56:05.online 11. That's, I don't think that's a change for the better.
:56:05. > :56:08.Probably a technological change. If they could have done it years ago,
:56:08. > :56:14.but look we have a minister for women, should we have a minister for
:56:14. > :56:20.men? No.What's your point? Why do you want one for women though?
:56:20. > :56:27.think every answer is dependent on Government as a socialist. No, not
:56:27. > :56:31.that side of government. There are ways, especially economic, that
:56:31. > :56:35.women have issues and challenges. All of us need to discuss masculine
:56:35. > :56:40.identity. Labour Party has a women's conference, should we have a men's
:56:40. > :56:48.conference on men's issues? That's the same argument if we have a black
:56:48. > :56:56.history month, why not a white history month. If you want to get
:56:56. > :57:02.George Galloway back... I'm not. This is the gig for Galloway. Ed has
:57:02. > :57:07.cuddled up with gorgeous George and then spectacularly denied it.
:57:07. > :57:12.Ed does in his private time is his business. Thank you.We've not an
:57:13. > :57:16.answer to the famous Leninist question on this- what is to be
:57:16. > :57:20.done? Better sex and health education and relationship education
:57:20. > :57:25.in schools. Putting full employment as a goal of public policy back at
:57:25. > :57:29.the centre and having Sure Start and parenting classes... It's never been
:57:29. > :57:35.-- there's never been betser education. Sex and health education
:57:35. > :57:39.is very poor. Also putter things like Sure Start and family classes
:57:39. > :57:44.should actually focus on men some of the time. I thought when you started
:57:44. > :57:52.that sentence I thought you were going to stop after you said "better
:57:52. > :57:55.sex", that That was going to be Labour's policy. All right, good to
:57:55. > :57:58.see you again. Thanks very much. Just time before we go to find out
:57:58. > :58:04.the answer to the quiz. Which of these requests has the Foreign
:58:04. > :58:08.Office not been asked to assist with? Silencing a noisy cock re,
:58:08. > :58:13.recommend the best place to watch football, order a husband to get fit
:58:13. > :58:18.and eat healthily so that he and his wife could have children, request an
:58:18. > :58:22.audience with the Pope. Which was have they not dealt with? The Pope.
:58:22. > :58:26.That's correct. We made that one up. Every other one is real, including
:58:26. > :58:31.get a husband to lose weight. That's it. Thanks to our guests. The one
:58:31. > :58:37.o'clock news is on BBC One. I'm back tonight on BBC One with a super
:58:37. > :58:41.model line up, Tessa Jowell, Michael Portillo, Katie Price, Adam Boulton
:58:41. > :58:47.and Toby Young. But not Dianne. She's in the allowed on any more.
:58:47. > :58:54.What can I say? ! Join me this week at 11. 35pm on BBC One. I'm back