:00:47. > :00:50.Daily Politics. The Chief Inspector of Schools says
:00:50. > :00:54.comprehensives systematically fail Britain's brightest kids. He put
:00:54. > :00:59.them in the mixed ability classes, they fail to teach them properly,
:00:59. > :01:03.don't set them challenging homework or don't have the know-how to get
:01:03. > :01:07.them into a good university. We'll be asking why it's all such a mess.
:01:07. > :01:12.The House of Commons committee has effectively accused Google of
:01:12. > :01:16.dodging its fair share of taxes. It insists it operates within the law.
:01:16. > :01:19.Who is right? We'll have the latest on the
:01:19. > :01:24.stand-off between the government and protesters in Turkey and get some
:01:24. > :01:28.international reaction to the two weeks of running battles.
:01:28. > :01:36.And, Gyles meets Maggie's old driver and talks about how ministers come
:01:36. > :01:45.to rely on the man old holds open the car door.
:01:46. > :01:50.So, in the next hour, with us for the duration, Tom or Tam Grey. He's
:01:50. > :01:53.the second baron of Strathclyde no less as the Laird of Paisley, I
:01:53. > :01:57.welcome you to the Daily Politics. Thank you very much. Good to be
:01:57. > :02:00.here. He sat in the Cabinet until a year ago as leader of the House of
:02:00. > :02:05.Lords. Google is in the news again. Today's scathing House of Commons
:02:05. > :02:09.report into the tax affairs has given it headlines. The Public
:02:09. > :02:12.Accounts Committee, one run by Margaret Hodge, laid into the
:02:12. > :02:17.Internet giant, dismissing the argument that all the salesmen and
:02:17. > :02:23.women are based in Ireland as "brazen and unconvincing". Google,
:02:23. > :02:30.according to a press release, earn something like $1. 3 in the UK in
:02:30. > :02:33.the first quarter of this year and paid only 0. 1% of that in taxes.
:02:33. > :02:37.That last bit wasn't on the press release.
:02:38. > :02:43.The committee chairman, Margaret Hodge, isn't impressed? I think the
:02:43. > :02:50.fact that over six years they have had a turnover of $18 billion here
:02:50. > :02:54.in the UK, yet paid only �16 million in corporation tax is evidence that
:02:54. > :03:01.they are not paying enough. Corporation tax during that period
:03:01. > :03:07.was running in 27, 26, 25%, that's the figure we should be seeing on
:03:07. > :03:11.the profits made here in the UK from the sales.
:03:11. > :03:16.Now, we asked Google if they wanted to come on and talk about their tax
:03:16. > :03:20.affairs but they didn't. They September us a few words. As we have
:03:20. > :03:26.said, Google complies with all the tax rules in the UK, and it's the
:03:26. > :03:30.politicians who make the rules. They sent us a few words. The public
:03:30. > :03:34.accounts comity wants to see companies pay more tax where
:03:34. > :03:39.customers are locate bud that's not how the rules operate today. We
:03:39. > :03:43.welcome the call to make the current system simpler and more transparent.
:03:43. > :03:49.That was Google. Now, obviously, major corporations
:03:49. > :03:52.will use the tax rules to mitigate their tax, most of them do that.
:03:52. > :03:57.They claim everything they do is legal. But there is an arguen't
:03:57. > :04:01.about something that might not be legal. That is, where are the
:04:01. > :04:06.advertising revenues generated for Google? They are saying we do really
:04:06. > :04:09.all the selling in Ireland, that's therefore where we pay tax. The
:04:09. > :04:13.committees of the law of evidence suggest they sell a lot of
:04:13. > :04:17.advertising in Britain? It's a very timely and interesting report. Most
:04:17. > :04:20.interesting because it comes the week before this great G8 meeting
:04:20. > :04:26.taking place in Northern Ireland next week and David Cameron's said
:04:26. > :04:31.one of the issues he particularly wants to discuss is the role of
:04:31. > :04:34.multinational taxation. Google make one very good defence
:04:34. > :04:38.which is they stick to the law, they are not breaking the law, they stick
:04:38. > :04:42.to the rules that have been applied by the politicians for many, many
:04:42. > :04:46.years now, and if politicians change the rules, they should do so, then
:04:46. > :04:54.they'll comply with them 4. I have some sympathy. I understand that
:04:54. > :04:58.too. I'm sure the rules are very complicated so if you hire expensive
:04:58. > :05:01.accountants, you can find ways around them. But this issue of where
:05:01. > :05:06.the advertising revenues are generated, in a sense, is nothing to
:05:06. > :05:09.do with sticking to the rules at all. This is a potentially criminal
:05:09. > :05:13.mat matter because you have an obligation in your tax return to
:05:13. > :05:17.tell the truth. Of course.And if you are paying commission to people
:05:17. > :05:25.who are selling advertising in Britain, but you are booking that
:05:25. > :05:28.advertising in Ireland, that should be looked at by HMRC? I'm sure HMRC
:05:28. > :05:36.if they haven't already thought of it will have now had the idea
:05:36. > :05:40.watching you on this programme. With everything we know about HMRC, they
:05:40. > :05:46.are very capable of dealing with large companies. But again, you
:05:46. > :05:49.think you made a good point about the over complication some the
:05:49. > :05:52.rules. Nobody understands the rules and it comes to a matter of judgment
:05:52. > :05:58.between the tax authorities and various companies.
:05:58. > :06:02.I think a greater clarity in this area, trying to pay tax where
:06:02. > :06:06.revenue is raised, would be a very good direction to go down. But
:06:06. > :06:10.almost more importantly than that, George Osborne has had a policy
:06:10. > :06:14.since 2010 of trying to reduce taxation for corporations and what
:06:14. > :06:17.we know from all the experience in the last 40 years is that when you
:06:17. > :06:23.reduce the overall level of taxation, companies are happier to
:06:23. > :06:29.pay what they have to do and don't go through all the hoops that many
:06:29. > :06:33.organisations and individuals do. He's kept the hoops. When you were
:06:33. > :06:36.in opposition, you pointed out that Gordon Brown doubled the size of the
:06:36. > :06:40.tax guide when he was Chancellor. True. Doubled it. It's now so big
:06:40. > :06:44.you can't even carry it around. What has your Government done? Added
:06:44. > :06:51.another several hundred pages to Gordon Brown's pages? And this is an
:06:51. > :06:56.error. We should not over complicate taxation. That's why this meeting
:06:56. > :06:59.next week is an important next milestone. People have been
:06:59. > :07:04.discussing it for a long time about how to deal with it. It's important.
:07:04. > :07:11.We all need to pay the tax that is due, but not to pay the tax that is
:07:11. > :07:21.not due. OK. Time four our daily quiz. The speaker's wife is called
:07:21. > :07:37.
:07:37. > :07:40.Sally Bercow, if you hadn't heard. Strathclyde will give us the correct
:07:40. > :07:46.answer. You will you think? I hope to discover what it is before then!
:07:46. > :07:50.He hasn't a clue. I'll have to tell him!
:07:50. > :07:53.Are comprehensives failing Britain's brainier kids? The report by the
:07:53. > :07:59.watchdog says they are. The Chief Inspector of Schools says it's an
:07:59. > :08:04.issue of national concern. Looking at 2012, the Ofsted report
:08:04. > :08:08.found 65% of pew piles at non-selective schools who achieve
:08:08. > :08:13.level five or above, quite a high level of attainment, in English and
:08:13. > :08:20.maths, at the end of primary school, they went on to fail to get an A* or
:08:20. > :08:24.A grades in both subjects at GCSE. A quarter of students who gained
:08:24. > :08:30.this prestigious level five in English at the end of primary school
:08:31. > :08:33.failed to gain a B grade at GCSE, corresponding to over 40,000 high
:08:33. > :08:38.attaining students, or at least they were at the end of primary school,
:08:38. > :08:44.not making the expected progress. Looking ahead to university
:08:44. > :08:50.applications, in 20% of non--selective secondary schools, no
:08:50. > :08:58.student achieved two As and a B at A-level in at least two of the key
:08:58. > :09:02.subjects. That is the minimum offer required by the minimum universities
:09:02. > :09:06.called the Russell Group. I'm joined by Ofsted's Chief Inspector, Michael
:09:06. > :09:11.Wilshaw. Were you surprised by the findings or did you suspect them?
:09:11. > :09:17.was shocked by them. Really?Yes, I come from the comprehensive system,
:09:17. > :09:22.I was a teacher in Inner London for many years and a teacher in London's
:09:22. > :09:29.comprehensives for many years. I was very certain rised at the under
:09:29. > :09:35.performance about the most achievable kids. Why? If you talk
:09:35. > :09:38.the results, you would think, these kids are good, that's a key to a
:09:38. > :09:42.whole range ofpingcational opportunities. What then goes wrong?
:09:42. > :09:45.Well, we have pointed to a number of important things. First of all, the
:09:45. > :09:50.transfer, the transition between primary school and secondary school
:09:50. > :09:54.is not good in many of our schools. So bright youngsters, bright eye and
:09:54. > :10:00.bushy tailed doing well at the end of year six in primary schools,
:10:00. > :10:08.transfer to secondary school and not enough is done, particular
:10:08. > :10:13.particularly at Key Stage 3 and in year seven at Key Stage 3. They are
:10:13. > :10:19.given the work they eve already done in primary school so they get bored
:10:19. > :10:24.and they lose interest, it then becomes much harder at Key Stage 4
:10:24. > :10:29.to catch up at age 14-16. You also raised the issue that a lot of kids
:10:29. > :10:31.have been taught in mixed ability classes; they are not being set in
:10:31. > :10:39.classes related to their ability. Upping that's a problem because you
:10:39. > :10:43.say, or the report says, that if in mixed ability classes, the teachers
:10:43. > :10:46.tend to teach towards the middle range? We are not prescriptive, we
:10:46. > :10:50.are saying you make the judgment about the school organisation and
:10:50. > :10:54.the classroom organisation you want. But, if you are going to use mixed
:10:54. > :10:58.ability classes, you have got to make sure that you have people and
:10:58. > :11:02.teachers who know how to teach in a mixed ability way. That's tough, is
:11:03. > :11:07.it not? That is tough. That's why I, as a head, rarely used mixed
:11:07. > :11:11.ability. We'll be looking in the next round of inspections at what's
:11:12. > :11:17.happening in these mixed ability classes which may be holding back
:11:17. > :11:21.our brightest children. The most disturbing thing, or one of them, is
:11:21. > :11:25.inspectors found in a number of schools that teachers didn't know
:11:25. > :11:31.who their most able children were in the class.
:11:31. > :11:35.They can't kept tabs on them? hadn't kept tabs on them or tracked
:11:35. > :11:39.their progress. And they didn't intervene to find out why? That's
:11:39. > :11:43.right. You are in favour of setting them? I am. That's my view.You are
:11:43. > :11:48.not being prescriptive, but if you had your way, you would have setting
:11:48. > :11:54.in the comprehensive system? That's up to heads but I did and I would.
:11:54. > :11:57.What we want to say is that if heads are going to pursue this line of
:11:57. > :12:01.mixed ability, classroom organisation, they have got to
:12:01. > :12:06.deliver the outcomes of our brighter children. Let me raise an issue
:12:06. > :12:10.about the Association of schools and colleges who've been on behalf of
:12:10. > :12:15.the union leading this report, they say it's not appropriate to use this
:12:15. > :12:20.primary scleefl five asker to predict future GCSE successes, they
:12:20. > :12:25.say you have taken the wrong benchmark? I've been a head and, if
:12:25. > :12:31.I 'ed met a youngster at the end of year six who'd achieved a level 5 in
:12:31. > :12:35.English and ale level 5 in maths, and got a good report from the
:12:35. > :12:40.primary, I would have expected that child to be an able child. In nine
:12:40. > :12:45.cases out of ten they were. And yet, as you said in your report, 65,000
:12:45. > :12:50.of these children are not getting the top grades at GCSE. What do you
:12:50. > :12:55.make of this? I think all parents will be deeply concerned and worried
:12:55. > :13:02.and and interested by this report and the schools have got to react.
:13:03. > :13:07.I think there's this point, this line between young children leaving
:13:07. > :13:11.primary schools doing very well and, then a few years later, not doing
:13:11. > :13:15.very well, is a clear indication that something's happening in those
:13:15. > :13:20.three or four years that they are getting to their secondary schools.
:13:20. > :13:23.Now, there may be a myriad of reasons between league tables about
:13:23. > :13:27.what schools have been doing in order to get people to pass, but the
:13:27. > :13:31.fact is, they are letting down these able students because if they are
:13:31. > :13:36.not getting the right GCSEs, they are not taking the right A-levels
:13:36. > :13:41.and not getting the opportunity to go to the top universities. There
:13:41. > :13:45.are serious consequences for our country. We want the brightest
:13:45. > :13:50.children, the majority of who go to non-selective secondary schools,
:13:50. > :13:53.three million go to non-selective secondary schools, only 150,000 go
:13:53. > :14:00.to grammars, so it's really important for the future of the UK
:14:00. > :14:03.that the youngsters do really well. All right. Listening to all that is
:14:03. > :14:07.Brian Lightman, the General Secretary of the Association of
:14:07. > :14:12.School and College Leaders. He has a bit of a sound problem, as you can
:14:12. > :14:16.see there in Birmingham. Let us see if he can hear us. Can you hear me
:14:16. > :14:22.here in London? Yes, I'm afraid I didn'the hear the beginning of what
:14:22. > :14:26.has been said, sorry about that. understand. Let me come to you then.
:14:27. > :14:32.Two thirds of kids who seem to be bright at the age of 11 because they
:14:32. > :14:38.get these great results in level 5 in English and mathematics then fail
:14:38. > :14:41.to get either an A or A* in the subjects at GCSE. That's a national
:14:41. > :14:44.scandal, is it not? Well, I think the first thing I want to say is,
:14:44. > :14:49.this is a serious subject that we need to have a reasoned discussion
:14:49. > :14:53.about. I'm very concerned about the sort of sensationalist head Lymes
:14:53. > :14:58.that we are hearing about, a culture of low expectations and so on. We
:14:58. > :15:02.need to be clear what a level 5 actually means. When a pupil gets a
:15:02. > :15:05.level 5 at kinder Key Stage 2, this is a high stakes accountability test
:15:05. > :15:10.and schools are understandably teaching children to the test and
:15:10. > :15:15.preparing for that. Level 5 has a very wide range of performance. Now,
:15:15. > :15:19.a child who has just scraped level 5 after a lot of tuition and coaching
:15:19. > :15:24.to get through it is in a very different place from a child who is
:15:24. > :15:27.at the top level of level 5 and therefore one of the highest
:15:27. > :15:35.achievers. The fact they have got a level 5 doesn't automatically mean
:15:35. > :15:39.that they are going to be getting As and A*s at GCSE. Most schools assess
:15:39. > :15:43.children on entry, they use standardised tests and other key
:15:43. > :15:47.things. The thing is to identify the brightest children when they come
:15:47. > :15:56.through to secondary school and that we do everything we possibly can to
:15:56. > :15:59.stretch them and challenge them. These kids are leaving primary
:15:59. > :16:03.school in pretty good shape and you would expect them to do well in
:16:03. > :16:07.secondary school and they don't. Something is going badly wrong.
:16:07. > :16:13.don't all do badly at secondary school. This is the point. Many of
:16:13. > :16:18.those children, I think 84% of those children were getting A stars and
:16:18. > :16:22.Bs. You know, you have to look at the data properly. There's no point
:16:22. > :16:30.- Not on the subjects that the Russell Group of universities, our
:16:30. > :16:33.top universities want. Hang on here. This is a misinterpretation of data.
:16:33. > :16:39.Those Russell Group facilitating subjects are a number of subjects
:16:39. > :16:42.which the Government has highlighted and I don't have a problem with them
:16:42. > :16:46.highlighting those subjects, but there are other rigorous A-levels
:16:46. > :16:51.that those students will have done and that's not shown in the data.
:16:51. > :16:56.You may say that, hold on, you may say that, but the Russell Group are
:16:56. > :17:00.the top group of universities. We all want to see bright kids, more
:17:00. > :17:05.bright kids from poorer backgrounds getting to our top universities.
:17:05. > :17:12.course we do. Zblt Russell Group has set what it thinks you need to get
:17:12. > :17:18.to get into their universities. Let me say the point I was trying to
:17:18. > :17:23.make, if there are many students who go to Russell Group verse toys who
:17:23. > :17:28.do not have those -- universities, who do not have those subjects, but
:17:28. > :17:32.they have other subjects, such as philosophy. We cannot draw sweeping
:17:32. > :17:35.conclusions based on a performance indicator that has been invented
:17:35. > :17:39.recently and was not something that was there when the children came
:17:39. > :17:42.through and you know, we need to look at the data properly, otherwise
:17:42. > :17:46.we're making generalisations. We're talking about a failing system and
:17:46. > :17:50.we're not talking about the good practice. That report describes a
:17:50. > :17:56.lot of good practice as well. We need to build on that. You seem to
:17:56. > :18:00.be very defensive on this. Not at all. The bottom line is that a lot
:18:00. > :18:04.of kids who leave primary school with good results are not then doing
:18:04. > :18:09.well in secondary school and not getting into the Russell Group of
:18:09. > :18:15.universities. Answer me this: If these kids doing well on the level
:18:15. > :18:19.five, if they go to grammar school, 60% of them then get A or A star in
:18:19. > :18:23.English and maths. Why do two thirds of them not in the comprehensives?
:18:23. > :18:28.The children who go to grammar schools have been selected on
:18:28. > :18:30.different assessments. These level five kids, who are going to
:18:30. > :18:35.comprehensives are some of the brightest kids out of the primary
:18:35. > :18:39.schools. Yes, some of them are.They have gone to grammar schools 30 or
:18:39. > :18:43.40 years ago. Some of those children are but not all of them. Level five
:18:43. > :18:50.is not the admissions criteria for grammar schools. I understand that.
:18:50. > :18:54.The data is not being used properly. It's being misinterpreted, rather
:18:54. > :18:57.than saying what more can we do. I don't represent head teachers would
:18:57. > :19:00.want to dumb down the system and have people failing. We are
:19:00. > :19:05.absolutely resolute in our wish for those children to do their best.
:19:05. > :19:11.You're not doing very well, are you? I disagree. You have an opinion and
:19:11. > :19:17.you're not using the data correctly. % of non-selective secondary
:19:17. > :19:21.schools, 20% are places where no student achiefs two As and a B at
:19:21. > :19:25.A-level in key subjects. In those subjects. Yeah. Not in the other
:19:25. > :19:29.subjects. Now if those subjects are priority that the Government is now
:19:29. > :19:33.doing, then we will have to constrain people. I have to tell
:19:33. > :19:38.you, there are very well known politicians who don't have A-levels
:19:38. > :19:42.in those subjects. We need to have a look at the sorts of people...
:19:42. > :19:48.You have a look... Which politician doesn't have an A-level in English
:19:48. > :19:52.or maths? I don't know. You look at things like economics and so on.
:19:52. > :19:58.Look at what the Prime Minister has got. The Prime Minister has a first
:19:58. > :20:03.class degree. Yes, that's right. But they don't need to have those
:20:03. > :20:06.subjects in order to get into a top-class degree. It is part of the
:20:06. > :20:09.measure, but it's not the only measure. What you're saying is that
:20:09. > :20:14.the whole system is failing because of data that is very, very
:20:15. > :20:19.selective. The other point here is that Ofsted do not routinely inspect
:20:19. > :20:24.the most outstanding schools. This is a small sample and you need to
:20:24. > :20:29.look at the whole picture. What I'm not here to say there isn't more we
:20:29. > :20:33.could do. We should be doing more, but I'm certainly not prepared to
:20:33. > :20:38.accept evidence that is unreliable. Evidence is unreliable. That's
:20:38. > :20:44.nonsense. We visited 41 schools. These were average comprehensive
:20:44. > :20:50.schools which took a fair spread of ability. We also looked at the
:20:50. > :20:55.evidence from 2,000 subject inspections in something like 150
:20:55. > :20:59.school inspections. We looked not just at those 41 average
:20:59. > :21:03.comprehensive schools, but we looked at what was coming through in
:21:03. > :21:08.inspections of schools over the last year. So, the evidence is there. We
:21:08. > :21:12.really must, as a country, stop making excuses. We know that too
:21:12. > :21:17.many of our youngsters from the state system are not doing as well
:21:17. > :21:21.as they should. The universities say that. The Russell Group universities
:21:22. > :21:25.say that. We have to deal with this issue and not make excuses about it.
:21:25. > :21:31.I would expect head teachers up and down the land to have high
:21:31. > :21:34.expectations of their students coming to them. Ofsted says you're
:21:34. > :21:38.making excuses. We're not. We're saying let's look at the data
:21:38. > :21:41.properly. Let's look at exactly what we're hearing here and what the
:21:41. > :21:46.sample is and what questions were asked in the schools and let's talk
:21:46. > :21:49.about what we can do together rather than having this confrontational
:21:49. > :21:53.situation where all the time we're told we're failing to do this,
:21:53. > :21:58.failing to do, that when at the same time, more and more students are
:21:58. > :22:03.going to university and getting good first-class degrees, more than ever.
:22:03. > :22:08.They're not all from the, these comprehensives. More students all
:22:08. > :22:13.round are going, proportionate. A hugely disproportionate number of
:22:13. > :22:17.our kids who are going to the Russell group of universities are
:22:17. > :22:22.coming from the private and grammar schools. What this Ofsted report
:22:22. > :22:26.seems to suggest is the reason is we're failing the brighter kids when
:22:26. > :22:30.they enter secondary school. That's a simplistic conclusion. There are
:22:30. > :22:36.lots of other reasons why children from independent schools and from
:22:36. > :22:40.selective schools have very, very good chances to go, they're given a
:22:40. > :22:43.lot of help an tuition and so on. We should support the children in the
:22:43. > :22:47.non-selective schools to ensure that they have those opportunities that
:22:47. > :22:50.are afforded them in the privileged environments. , we've overrun
:22:50. > :22:54.because I wanted you both to have a good say. It's a very important
:22:54. > :23:00.subject. I thank you both. There were more protests in Turkey
:23:00. > :23:05.last night with riot police firing tear gas to disperse protesters. The
:23:05. > :23:11.country's governing party says it's prepared to hold a referendum on the
:23:11. > :23:15.issue which sparked the riots. It started as a dispute about a park
:23:16. > :23:20.but the way the police treated campaigners triggered rioting. The
:23:20. > :23:25.government says it's confident that the new "gesture of goodwill" would
:23:25. > :23:31.clear the area but warned those who remained but they would "face the
:23:31. > :23:38.police". Our correspondent Quentin Sommerville is in Istanbul. It looks
:23:38. > :23:45.like this mass use of police power has diminished, if not destroyed the
:23:45. > :23:51.protest, is that right? Well, if you look behind me, I'll step back and
:23:51. > :23:54.you can see, that's the square down there, and it's largely cleared of
:23:54. > :23:57.protesters much they've been pushed back into Gezi Park. They're
:23:57. > :24:01.remaining there and rejecting that offerer from the Prime Minister.
:24:01. > :24:05.They say it's a ploy. They don't accept. It within the last couple of
:24:05. > :24:08.hours he's said to them it's that or the redevelopment of the park. This
:24:09. > :24:13.is your final warning. But we're now into the stage where we've had in
:24:13. > :24:17.the last 36 hours, two ultimatums that he was going to clear the park
:24:17. > :24:20.of protesters. But they're not ready to accept that. It's still a relaxed
:24:20. > :24:25.atmosphere in the park at the moment, certainly during the day.
:24:25. > :24:29.But it's a very defiant atmosphere. Have seen terrible pictures of what
:24:29. > :24:34.the riot police have been prepared to do to the protesters. In the end,
:24:34. > :24:42.would I be right in think thinking that if they don't get out of that
:24:42. > :24:47.park, he will send in the riot police? I think that there's a very
:24:47. > :24:53.real likelihood of that. It's worth remember remembering, this is about
:24:53. > :24:58.much more than just that punch of trees behind me. It's about -- bunch
:24:58. > :25:01.of trees behind me. It's about a large minority who believe the
:25:01. > :25:06.government is too authoritarian, that it doesn't listen to them. The
:25:06. > :25:10.government has said we are listening to you, we've given you this
:25:10. > :25:17.opportunity. Istanbul can have a referendum over the future of the
:25:17. > :25:21.park. The protesters aren't buying that. Do you get a feeling there
:25:21. > :25:31.that you're at a kind of for good or ill, you are at a kind of turning
:25:31. > :25:33.
:25:33. > :25:37.point in modern Turkey? I don't feel that, no. To be honest, it fields
:25:37. > :25:41.quite -- feels quite localised. Last week when the protests were at the
:25:42. > :25:46.fiercest, we travelled across the country. We went to the coast and
:25:46. > :25:50.there was an energy and it felt almost like a momentum. Coming back
:25:50. > :26:00.a week later, that seems to have dissipated.
:26:00. > :26:04.
:26:04. > :26:08.on this story. We go straight to our very own Jo Coburn in Strasbourg.
:26:08. > :26:12.Andrew, the protests and unrest in Istanbul and other Turkish cities
:26:12. > :26:17.have caused concern for politicians here at the European Parliament.
:26:17. > :26:21.They debated the situation in Turkey earlier this week. They came up with
:26:21. > :26:25.a resolution calling for the Prime Minister's government to be more
:26:25. > :26:32.democratic and less heavy handed with the protesters. The question is
:26:32. > :26:39.will Turkey take any notice? To discuss that my two guests, a
:26:39. > :26:44.British conservative MEP and also a representative from Germany's SDP
:26:44. > :26:48.party and of Turkish heritage. Why should the Prime Minister listen to
:26:48. > :26:53.anything that's said here, Turkey's not part of the EU. That's a good
:26:53. > :27:00.question. I would say, there is a mixture of different things for the
:27:00. > :27:05.time being. For example, I guess the prime minister is very emotional. I
:27:05. > :27:13.would say surrounding him, all the advisor are hard liners, I would
:27:13. > :27:17.assume. So with a mixture of this, Mr Erdman with his emotional ilt, he
:27:17. > :27:21.is saying, European Union is not what they say is not valid for us. I
:27:21. > :27:26.think there's a mixture of all these things. Does Turkey still want to
:27:26. > :27:29.join the EU? Accession talks have been going on for years. Is there a
:27:29. > :27:35.feeling now that after years of frustration perhaps they're going
:27:35. > :27:40.off the idea? Official Officially they say yes. It's one of our first,
:27:40. > :27:46.important issues or things in the next time. But if you look to the
:27:46. > :27:52.poll toy, or to the politics, you can see there is, you know, Turkey
:27:52. > :27:56.has multiple options. In the last few years, they grew up with the
:27:56. > :28:05.economy and so from that perspective Turkey has multiple options and they
:28:05. > :28:09.are not ready to bow to the European Union. What's your response to
:28:09. > :28:15.what's been going on, the political unrest? Do you have sympathy with
:28:15. > :28:19.the protesters or the government? I'm concerned. I have sympathy with
:28:19. > :28:23.the protesters. They have a democratic right to protest and
:28:23. > :28:29.that's part of living in a democracy. You asked the question
:28:29. > :28:35.about Turkey joining the EU, Turkey has much to offer the EU -
:28:35. > :28:38.economically, it's a very, it's develop developing. Security, NATO,
:28:38. > :28:41.they are a good friend to the United Kingdom. They fight against
:28:41. > :28:45.terrorism. But there's been such hostility in the European Union
:28:45. > :28:52.about Turkey joining up. There are certain boxes that Turkey has to
:28:52. > :28:56.tick. Democracy and human rights are the top of the list. I work on the
:28:56. > :29:00.women's rights committee and I know the area women's rights in Turkey
:29:00. > :29:04.still needs to be addressed. For example, they have forced marriages.
:29:04. > :29:08.They have honour killings still. you think those are the real issues
:29:08. > :29:13.at stake here, that Turkey will never be able to join the EU unless
:29:13. > :29:19.it becomes less socially conservative? No, I don't think so.
:29:19. > :29:25.I think the young population in Turkey, for example, is totally
:29:25. > :29:30.oryen tented to the European Union. They are modern. They tried to get
:29:30. > :29:36.into the European Union but we all know that the visa regulation is not
:29:36. > :29:44.ready for that. I think that the prime minister, maybe he has another
:29:44. > :29:51.agenda. He sees he is a big star in the near east countries and northern
:29:51. > :29:55.African countries. So I think he is trying to go into both directions
:29:55. > :29:59.and finally, he will decide. Significant is this unrest? Our
:29:59. > :30:04.correspondent, we just spoke to, said actually he feels it's more
:30:04. > :30:11.localised. It's not a major turning point for Turkey. Do you agree?
:30:11. > :30:19.don't think so. I think that this is a mass protest. It starts with the
:30:19. > :30:29.Gezi Park, we all know. Now it's a protest against the way of
:30:29. > :30:29.
:30:29. > :30:32.leadership. It's a political issue now. So I think that Mr Erdogan
:30:32. > :30:38.would be able to overcome the situation in order to give the hand
:30:38. > :30:45.to the protesters, like the last two days, he has some meetings with the
:30:45. > :30:49.protesters. I think, but we have to help them. We have to help the
:30:49. > :30:55.Turkish government with cooling down Turkish government with cooling down
:30:55. > :30:59.Turkish government with cooling down period. How does the EU help?
:30:59. > :31:05.How can the EU help? What's happened is, the Prime Minister is in a way a
:31:05. > :31:12.victim of his own success with his economic liberal reforms. He's a
:31:12. > :31:17.socialite Conservative by nature. It's almost a new class, middle
:31:17. > :31:22.class secular population, mainly in the cities, not in the rural areas,
:31:22. > :31:27.who use the Internet, Facebook, they are nor in touch with European
:31:27. > :31:35.ideals, and suddenly, he's cutting back now and is introducing things
:31:35. > :31:39.like a ban, or they tried to introduce a ban on red lipstick on
:31:39. > :31:45.the Airways, kissing in public, things that are done in normal
:31:45. > :31:52.European states. Yes no, will Turkey ever join the E Snitch There's a way
:31:52. > :31:55.to go, we'll see -- the EU? I think it's 100% that sometimes it will
:31:55. > :32:00.happen. Thank you to both of you and back to you, Australian drew, in
:32:00. > :32:06.London. -- Andrew in London.
:32:07. > :32:11.There are certain things you aassociationiate with Germany, good
:32:11. > :32:15.cars, enthusiastic supporters of the euro, or at least one of them
:32:15. > :32:20.stereotypes may no longer be true. German politicses in London this
:32:20. > :32:25.week are arguing that the euro should be abandoned. Professor Bernd
:32:25. > :32:29.Lucke is a former World Bank economicist, former member of Angela
:32:29. > :32:34.Merkel's ruling Christian Democrat party and the current leader of a
:32:34. > :32:37.new euro critical party Alternative for Germany. What would this mean
:32:37. > :32:41.for Germany, for the European economy and for us? We can ask him
:32:41. > :32:47.he's with us now. Welcome. Thank you very much.
:32:47. > :32:56.What is it you want? Do you want to abolish the euro or do you want to
:32:56. > :33:00.retrench the euro back into a smaller, more sustainable zone?
:33:00. > :33:05.The latter would be the least we'd like to do. Moving back to national
:33:05. > :33:13.current sills is an optionism depends on whether it would be
:33:14. > :33:18.passable, the bailing out. Our prime goal is actually to get rid of the
:33:18. > :33:22.certain European countries. Get rid of? Let them exit the euro and let
:33:22. > :33:30.them regain the national currency which also allows them to be
:33:30. > :33:35.competitive again. Would that not put Germany's economy at a
:33:35. > :33:41.disadvantage, because if you got rid of certain countries, their
:33:41. > :33:45.currency, if they went back to the Sasapa and the drachma, and the
:33:45. > :33:51.Lira, their currency would devalue, and the German euro, or what's left
:33:51. > :33:57.of it, would soar, all of your exports would be priced out of the
:33:57. > :34:01.market? That's not quite true. First, it would be fair if the
:34:01. > :34:07.certain European countries had their chance in European competition.
:34:07. > :34:11.Currently the German currency is just under valued and the currency
:34:11. > :34:15.of the European states is under valued. The port thing is that
:34:15. > :34:18.exports don't only depend on exchange rates, they also depend on
:34:18. > :34:22.demand and income and these countries are see seerry in a
:34:22. > :34:27.recession. German exports have dropped by 25%. Because people
:34:27. > :34:31.haven't got the money? Exactly, yes. If we boost their economies, German
:34:31. > :34:35.exports will actually Ben from it that. Let me welcome our Scottish
:34:35. > :34:40.viewers who're joining us on BBC Two. They've BP watching First
:34:40. > :34:46.Ministers questions in the Scottish Parliament. We are discussing this
:34:46. > :34:48.new Euro-sceptic party, can I call it that? Of course, yes -- they've
:34:48. > :34:52.been watching First Ministers questions in the Scottish
:34:52. > :34:56.Parliament. If Germany simply left the euro
:34:56. > :35:00.itself, that would be the end of the euro, wouldn't it? That would
:35:00. > :35:03.probably be the end of the euro and it's not what we recommend. We
:35:03. > :35:10.recommend a gradual dismantling, starting with the southern European
:35:11. > :35:15.countries. You will know that at the time when it was Mr Mitterrand in
:35:15. > :35:20.France and Chancellor Cole in Germany, that many people knew at
:35:20. > :35:25.the time that including all these countries, Italy, Greece, Spain,
:35:25. > :35:30.Portugal, that we are nowhere near the Maastricht criteria, many people
:35:30. > :35:36.now that it would probably end in tears the way it is at the moment.
:35:36. > :35:41.But Mr Cole and Mr Mitterrand were on a political thing, they wanted
:35:41. > :35:46.political union. Surely if you allow the eurozone to break up the way you
:35:46. > :35:50.are suggesting, it kind of holes the whole euro project below the water
:35:50. > :35:57.line? I mean, many economists have warned
:35:57. > :36:00.in #19ed 92 and 1999 not to establish a common currency -- 1992.
:36:00. > :36:08.They ignored it everywhere except in Britain, I suppose. So you were very
:36:08. > :36:11.wise. Plenty of people are keeping their heads a little lower now.
:36:11. > :36:15.far as the political dimension of the euro is concerned, that's
:36:15. > :36:22.exaggerated. The European Union's fared well in terms of which we did
:36:22. > :36:26.not have a common currency. It's very aren yabling to think about
:36:26. > :36:30.this and move back to a system which is more flexible. You have got a
:36:30. > :36:34.German soul mate now, Tam? I think it's very significant. It represents
:36:34. > :36:38.something I've felt for a very long time. Britain's not isolated in
:36:38. > :36:40.Europe. There are now many people in Europe, including the Professor
:36:40. > :36:47.here, saying very much the same things as the Conservative Party's
:36:47. > :36:50.been saying for many years about Europe, it's over bureaucratic and
:36:50. > :36:53.over centralised, it creates regulation that people would rather
:36:53. > :36:56.not stick to. This is the great opportunity that David Cameron's
:36:56. > :37:00.spotted, not just for Britain to have renegotiation, but for the
:37:00. > :37:05.whole of Europe to decide what is in our collective interests and to
:37:05. > :37:10.create a new Europe with less centralisation, less expense, less
:37:10. > :37:14.bureaucracy. The Single Currency is a key question for Germany. I eve no
:37:14. > :37:18.idea how this is going to be resolved. Actually, what the
:37:18. > :37:22.Chancellor in Germany is trying to do is to keep kicking the can along
:37:22. > :37:27.the road for a bit longer. That's probably the right thing at the
:37:27. > :37:32.moment, to create a bit of stability within Europe, whether we end with
:37:33. > :37:37.some countries falling out of the euro, I don't yet know.
:37:37. > :37:41.Professor, would it be rude of me to suggest you are going to do that
:37:41. > :37:44.well in the September Federal Elections? Whether we do well or
:37:44. > :37:50.not, this depends on how much money we can raise for our campaign which
:37:50. > :37:56.is actually our most severe problem currently. The established parties
:37:56. > :38:03.get millions of euros in state funds and the newly formed parties do not.
:38:03. > :38:06.You can tap him for a few euros. Professor Lucke thank you for being
:38:06. > :38:09.with us. Stephen Hester is to step down as
:38:09. > :38:12.Chief Executive of the Royal Bank of Scotland before the end of the year
:38:12. > :38:17.to pave the way for the preprivatisation of the bank. He
:38:17. > :38:22.said he's "content" with the board's decision. An interesting use of the
:38:22. > :38:25.word, but the news has provoked anger in the city and among
:38:25. > :38:28.commentators who say he's been forced out by the Treasury. Before I
:38:28. > :38:31.came on air, I looked to see that the stock in the bank was falling
:38:31. > :38:36.this morning. That may have changed since, but the markets didn't react
:38:36. > :38:40.well. Treasury Minister, Sajid see ya individual made a statement to
:38:40. > :38:43.the Commons this morning and explained the process that RBS is
:38:43. > :38:48.undergoing and answered questions on the Government's involvement in the
:38:48. > :38:53.decision of Mr Hester -- Sajid Javid. Royal Bank of Scotland is
:38:53. > :38:56.moving from the rescue phase to the next phase, a phase of focussing on
:38:56. > :39:00.becoming a UK bank that provides greater support to the British
:39:00. > :39:04.economy and is prepared for its return to the private sector. The
:39:04. > :39:09.Government has always been clear that we want to see RBS become a
:39:09. > :39:12.more focussed, retail and commercial bank focussed on supporting the
:39:12. > :39:17.British economy and with a much smaller international investment
:39:17. > :39:21.banking arm. Did Stephen Hester go voluntarily or
:39:21. > :39:24.was he pushed? What role did the Chancellor have in prompting his
:39:24. > :39:30.departure? When did the Chancellor set out to the chairman and the
:39:30. > :39:35.board his desire that Stephen Hester should go? And, is there now any
:39:35. > :39:39.role for UKFI, or have they been circumvented on the discussion of
:39:39. > :39:43.the Chief Executive role? Chancellor has not been directly
:39:43. > :39:48.involved in meeting with Stephen Hester. Prior to the announcement,
:39:48. > :39:55.he's not met with him prior to the announcement of his departure on
:39:55. > :40:01.this issue. This is a decision for RBS and its board. RBS and its board
:40:01. > :40:07.have made this decision jointly with Stephen Hester and come to a
:40:07. > :40:12.voluntary agreement. The chairman of RBS, Sir Philip Hampton, did ask to
:40:12. > :40:17.meet the Chancellor last week to inform the Chancellor of the board's
:40:17. > :40:21.decision. That's the official line, but it's
:40:21. > :40:25.clear as mud what really happened. Let's ask a man who knows, a good
:40:26. > :40:29.friend of this programme, Alastair Heath. What do you think's happened
:40:29. > :40:33.here? I think what's happened is, uncreasingly the Government's views
:40:33. > :40:36.on what should happen to RBS has differed from what Stephen Hester's
:40:36. > :40:39.views are and also the views of people who want to maximise the
:40:40. > :40:42.value of RBS's share price. The Government wants to reduce art
:40:42. > :40:46.officially the size of RBS's investment bank, probably because
:40:46. > :40:50.they don't like the idea of owning investment banks, they're obsessed
:40:50. > :40:54.with the idea that the bank needs to be domestically focus and retail
:40:54. > :40:59.focussed. If you genuinely want to maximise its value, that's probably
:40:59. > :41:03.not the strategy you should be pursuing. That's why the private
:41:03. > :41:06.sharehold shareholders are worried about political interference.
:41:06. > :41:11.are saying there's been a disagreement between the Chief
:41:11. > :41:17.Executive who had won vision for the future of the bank going forward and
:41:17. > :41:23.the aims of the Government finally firming up on what it wants to do
:41:23. > :41:25.with the bank, which was different from Mr Tess Hester? That's the most
:41:25. > :41:30.plausible explanation. The Government are saying Hester didn't
:41:30. > :41:34.want to be there too long, they are saying they needed someone else to
:41:34. > :41:38.deal with the privatisation process. It seems like the Government and him
:41:38. > :41:42.are no longer agreeing. They are no longer on the same wavelength. We
:41:42. > :41:46.know there is a consensus for privatising the bank in some form.
:41:46. > :41:50.But there are various ways of doing that and various time scales for
:41:50. > :41:54.doing it. Do we have a clear idea yet what Mr Osborne, the Chancellor,
:41:54. > :41:58.wants to do? I think he wants to first start off with Lloyds Banking
:41:58. > :42:03.Group, which is a much easier privatisation. We are a small part
:42:03. > :42:06.of that? The taxpayer opens a part of that and the bank is in a betser
:42:06. > :42:11.state, the an easier bank to deal with. The share price has risen
:42:12. > :42:15.quite well? Yes. Apart from that, look at RBS. I suspect the way they
:42:15. > :42:22.choose to from I vattise Lloyds may give us an idea of how they want to
:42:22. > :42:30.do Lloyds. He wants to do it before 2015? For political reasons, but it
:42:30. > :42:33.depends on how the bank is managed, is it being maximised to --
:42:33. > :42:38.privatised to maximise the share price? The way the Conservatives
:42:38. > :42:41.have got the previous one sold off chumps of BP when it was owned by a
:42:41. > :42:47.big chunk of the state and it was sold at a market rate, you went for
:42:47. > :42:51.the highest price, it was back in the private sector. Should it be a
:42:51. > :42:55.more British Gas Tell Sid operation in which you try to use state
:42:55. > :43:00.ownership of RBS to spread the ownership among ordinary British
:43:00. > :43:06.people? I absolutely think it should be like a Tell Sid-type operation.
:43:06. > :43:10.Thises a massive one-off opportunity to actual actually redefine
:43:10. > :43:16.capitalism and increase the amount of shares. It's a major opportunity.
:43:16. > :43:18.There are a number of good proposals, such as the one from
:43:18. > :43:23.Policy Worthington Cup exchange for example. It's a great opportunity.
:43:23. > :43:28.It's also on binding the public back to the City to try and show that the
:43:28. > :43:32.interest can be aligned again. agree with that. That's the right
:43:32. > :43:36.way forward. RBS is one of the biggest banks in Britain, the
:43:36. > :43:42.largest lender I think. It needs to be in a proper shape in the private
:43:42. > :43:48.sector, and if anything, this row, if that is what it is, just
:43:48. > :43:52.demonstrates what is a bad -- what a bad owner the Government is, much
:43:52. > :43:56.better to be in the private sector. Spread the ownership as widely as
:43:56. > :44:01.possible and if we can get people to become interested in owning shares
:44:01. > :44:05.again, then we'll all benefit, including the people who become
:44:05. > :44:08.buyers, because they'll understand that owning shares can be a route to
:44:08. > :44:15.long-term prosperity. Thank you very much for marking our
:44:15. > :44:18.card today. Our special guest Tam sprath collide, former leader of the
:44:19. > :44:25.House of Lords, what red tear peer of the realm, so he has plenty to
:44:25. > :44:30.say about Lord's reform. There were attempts at an overhaul
:44:30. > :44:34.of the other place, as they quaintly call it. The Upper House is still
:44:34. > :44:37.not ready for potential change. The constitutional reform committee are
:44:37. > :44:41.plugging away trying to bring consensus on how to bring the Lord's
:44:41. > :44:47.into the 21st century. Teach them how to deal with lobbyists as well,
:44:47. > :44:57.that would be an idea. The evidence-taking session was taking
:44:57. > :44:58.
:44:59. > :45:03.part this morning. It was said earlier that there was a
:45:03. > :45:07.consensus that the House of Lords was too big. Is that consensus
:45:07. > :45:12.universal across the membership of the House or was it confined to
:45:12. > :45:22.people, the four people we have here who are regular attenders and
:45:22. > :45:23.
:45:23. > :45:28.participants? I think the feeling is that we are too big. But where do
:45:28. > :45:32.you go from there in determining what the size should be. The only
:45:32. > :45:37.qualification I would make was the one I gave earlier that Lord hill
:45:37. > :45:41.our leader had interesting figures about the active participation.
:45:41. > :45:49.Again, I can't speak for Lord Hill. I think you should look at what he
:45:49. > :45:53.has said about this because it -- in effect he says it isn't total
:45:53. > :45:57.population, it's trying to find ways of making better use of the
:45:57. > :46:03.membership. Joining us now the Lib Dem peer and whip, Ben Stoneham.
:46:03. > :46:08.Welcome. Now Tam Strathclyde when you resigned as leader of the Lord's
:46:08. > :46:12.you admitted, that the quo ligs "had broken down in the Lord's". What's
:46:12. > :46:19.the current stated of the coalition in the Lord's. It's extremely good.
:46:19. > :46:22.I think you took that out of context. Never do that (! )There
:46:22. > :46:26.was substantial disagreement in the reform in the House of Lords, within
:46:26. > :46:30.the House of Lords and within the House of Commons. What I love about
:46:30. > :46:33.this debate and I've been involved in this debate for a long time, is
:46:33. > :46:37.we look to the Lord's to debate and discuss it, but actually, House of
:46:37. > :46:40.Lords reform is really about the House of Commons. They will never be
:46:40. > :46:44.-- there will never be change until the House of Commons agree on what
:46:44. > :46:49.to do. Last summer, the House of Commons voted in overwhelming
:46:49. > :46:53.numbers on a plan that I supported, Ben supported and many others, the
:46:53. > :46:59.Government supported, but when it came to actually deciding how to do
:46:59. > :47:07.it, the House of Commons decided on an historic fudge. It was ever thus.
:47:07. > :47:12.They did that in the days of Enoch Powell. The same old story.Did Tam
:47:12. > :47:16.Strathclyde find is so difficult to work with you? I think you're
:47:16. > :47:21.misrepresenting it. He spoke to me the following day and apologised. He
:47:21. > :47:28.said he was completely misquoted. They always say that. I think it's
:47:28. > :47:32.unfair to say that. The reality is I think Tam Strathclyde had been
:47:32. > :47:34.pressed by the discipline -- would be impressed by the discipline
:47:34. > :47:40.showed by the Liberal Democrats in the coalition. I think the
:47:40. > :47:45.relationships work pretty well. Inevitably there will be areas of
:47:45. > :47:52.disagreement. Have things got better since he's gone snoo I think they've
:47:52. > :47:57.just carried on. That's very diplomatic. I believe that. They've
:47:57. > :48:02.got better. He's difficult. That's unfair as well. This is co-ligs
:48:02. > :48:06.politics working extremely well. It's sickening. In 2010 relaunched
:48:06. > :48:10.into an experiment in Parliament and in the House of Lords about how to
:48:10. > :48:15.make coalition work. None of us had experience. Bits of it were messy.
:48:15. > :48:20.On some bills I think individual parties played their cards harder
:48:20. > :48:23.than I think some of us had imagined. But the underlying
:48:23. > :48:31.strength of the coalition is the Prime Minister, Deputy Prime
:48:31. > :48:34.Minister, the Chancellor and his number two get on extremely well.
:48:34. > :48:39.The essential purposes for creating the coalition still exist. We have
:48:39. > :48:43.local difficulties. Let me give you an example, on the vote on
:48:43. > :48:47.boundaries. Where I thought the Liberal Democrats got themselves
:48:47. > :48:53.into a ridiculous position. Ratted on you. Not only that, they promoted
:48:53. > :48:55.a system which they themselves had said was unfair. The reality was the
:48:55. > :48:59.Tory backbenchers in the Commons were foolish. They should have
:48:59. > :49:05.continued on the House of Lords reform. This is something we could
:49:05. > :49:10.have an argument on. I was going to say is that I think Tam Strathclyde
:49:10. > :49:14.is a classic person who has spent most of his life sustaining the
:49:14. > :49:18.coalition and the Conservative Party. He's skilled at running
:49:18. > :49:25.coalition. What about the coalition in the Lib Dems? All political
:49:25. > :49:31.parties are coalition. I'm a social Democrat. OK. It's all well for you
:49:31. > :49:36.to be so cosy here. But we watch this from the outside. The failure
:49:36. > :49:39.to reform the Lords, you're just this huge dumping ground for the
:49:39. > :49:44.establishment these days. There's 800 of you. The coalition will add
:49:44. > :49:49.another 50. I mean, it's a joke. It's very difficult to reform. There
:49:49. > :49:56.are lots of vested interest. Stop adding to them. If you don't, you
:49:56. > :50:02.change the age profile. The average age is already about 93. Joot
:50:02. > :50:09.Liberal Democrats would say should reform the House of Lords.
:50:09. > :50:14.How is it that the wore's only superpower of 300 million poem --
:50:14. > :50:18.world's only superpower of 300 million people, its upper house has
:50:18. > :50:23.100 members and this little island off the coast of France has an upper
:50:23. > :50:27.House with 800 plus. It's too big. The House of Commons is too big as
:50:27. > :50:31.well. We tried to reduce that as well. They wouldn't let you do that.
:50:31. > :50:38.They certainly would not, which was a pity You have to reform the House
:50:38. > :50:43.of Lords at the same time. There There was a deal done which said
:50:43. > :50:46.that the House of Commons should reduce to 600 and We Will Rock You
:50:46. > :50:55.reform to the House of Lords. thought if this lot gave you the
:50:56. > :51:00.referendum on AV you would give them boundary changes. The fact is that
:51:00. > :51:05.the gravy train continues. You have a career in politics, it comes to an
:51:05. > :51:09.end, oh, no, we'll stick you into the House of Lords, �300 a day, nice
:51:09. > :51:13.title, gets you reservations in restaurants and we're off to the
:51:13. > :51:17.races. I'm sure you get reservations too. But the serious point...
:51:17. > :51:21.McDonald's! The difficulty for reformers has always been that the
:51:21. > :51:27.House of Lords actually does the job it's asked to do remarkably well,
:51:28. > :51:32.for very little cost. It analyses, scrutinises, revises legislation. It
:51:32. > :51:36.does the job that a second chamber should do. It just doesn't need 800
:51:36. > :51:40.of you. I agree. On that amazing consensus, we move
:51:40. > :51:44.on. Thank you for being with us. Now imagine being sat, if that's the
:51:44. > :51:49.correct English, in a car with Margaret Thatcher, after she stepped
:51:49. > :51:52.out of Downing Street for the last time. Or hearing ministers make
:51:52. > :51:55.crucial decisions as you're driving them to meet heads of state or rock
:51:55. > :51:59.stars, if you're Tony Blair. Probably not something you'll find
:51:59. > :52:02.in the job description to join the Government car service, but they are
:52:02. > :52:07.witnesses to some unique and intimate moments of history. For the
:52:07. > :52:17.latest in our series on the Westminster village, Giles has taken
:52:17. > :52:24.
:52:24. > :52:29.to the road with former Government They are privy to secrets, but have
:52:29. > :52:33.no official role. They drive ministers but not policy. Sometimes
:52:33. > :52:37.they share a trust and relationship with people at the top that Cabinet
:52:37. > :52:42.colleagues don't get close to, Government drivers. Thart political
:52:42. > :52:47.equivalent of what the butter saw. You build up a rapport between you.
:52:47. > :52:55.Over the years, of course, but initially are you getting to know
:52:55. > :52:59.one another. Once you get to know a minister, of course, then you become
:52:59. > :53:03.privy to everything that's going on in the car. Most of them do gel with
:53:03. > :53:07.their ministers because if they don't, it's best they come off and
:53:07. > :53:13.another driver goes on there. Sometimes you do get a clash of
:53:13. > :53:19.personalities. Did you ever have any? There was only one minister
:53:19. > :53:23.ever in my career that I couldn't get along with too well. That was
:53:23. > :53:27.earnest Marples. Was Transport Secretary in the early 60s. Here he
:53:27. > :53:31.is talking about drink driving. People drink and then they have too
:53:31. > :53:36.much and it's the end of the year and they drive home. I'm all for
:53:36. > :53:42.drinking. I'm in the a scrooge. I like my drinking, I had a sherry
:53:42. > :53:50.today. Denis wasn't a fan. I drove him for about six months or so, in
:53:50. > :53:56.the end, I did a swap. I think it was in both our interests.
:53:56. > :54:00.Diplomatically put! That's right. I wound up with a wonderful man, Enoch
:54:00. > :54:04.Powell. It's long been thought that Government drivers' network was a
:54:04. > :54:11.crucial sounding board for ministers. Every driver has a story
:54:11. > :54:17.to tell. A lot of them confide in ministers, between each other. It's
:54:17. > :54:22.a wonderful network there in fact, when we get back to the garage
:54:22. > :54:27.telling stories. Ghast drivers network, what does that say about my
:54:27. > :54:31.policy and where I'm going? Very much so. And we used to feed them
:54:31. > :54:37.little things that possibly, if it wasn't too sensitive of course, we'd
:54:37. > :54:44.let our ministers know. Always. On one occasion in 1976, Denis knew
:54:44. > :54:48.something before his minister Harold Hever. I'd known, funnily enough
:54:48. > :54:55.through some colleagues in work, I knew that Harold Wilson was going to
:54:55. > :55:02.resign the next day. When they came out of kobt they'd been informed. "
:55:02. > :55:07.Oh, yes I heard that yesterday." It all went dead in the car. He said, "
:55:07. > :55:11.You knew yesterday and you never told me? He was quite annoyed.
:55:11. > :55:14.drove Mrs Thatcher on and off for years and finally ended as her
:55:14. > :55:20.official Prime Ministerial driver. The strangest journey he had with
:55:20. > :55:24.her was her last in that role. was the most amazing journey. We got
:55:24. > :55:27.in the car and for once, there wasn't a word spoken in that car
:55:27. > :55:33.from the time we left Downing Street until we actually came out of
:55:33. > :55:37.Buckingham Palace. It was very poignant. In today's money-saving
:55:37. > :55:41.climate ministers tend not to have their own driver. A bonus possibly
:55:41. > :55:51.to the Treasury, but perhaps politics and history are poorer as a
:55:51. > :55:51.
:55:51. > :55:55.result. Now, did you have a Government car
:55:55. > :56:00.or a driver when you were a minister? I did in the old days, in
:56:00. > :56:04.the 1980s and 90s. But all that stopped under the new austerity of
:56:04. > :56:08.2010. I have to say, it was one of those perks that was absolutely
:56:08. > :56:11.fantastic. You got to know your drivers. You were on very good terms
:56:11. > :56:16.with them. They were extremely helpful and it was a relief to see
:56:16. > :56:21.your driver there when you needed to go somewhere. It did change. I think
:56:21. > :56:27.it was probably right that it changed. Did you have a pool of
:56:27. > :56:31.cars? You did. You need to get ministers from A to B, using public
:56:31. > :56:36.transport where that's zrierable. But they need -- desirable. But they
:56:36. > :56:42.need to be in cars and get to where they need to be effectively. It's
:56:42. > :56:45.not such a good situation from the minister's point of view, but from
:56:45. > :56:50.the taxpayers' point of view it's fair enough. The driver ever tell
:56:50. > :56:55.you things? Very much so. The gossip was extraordinary. They always had a
:56:55. > :57:00.little tale to tell. They were very discreet about where they got their
:57:00. > :57:06.information from, a bit like people in your great profession. But they
:57:06. > :57:11.did know stuff. They didn't brag about what the former minister
:57:11. > :57:15.they'd had in the car before, so there was also a discretion there.
:57:15. > :57:20.They were very keen, usually, to tell you what it was. You felt you
:57:20. > :57:26.could have confidential discussions with another minister in the back of
:57:27. > :57:29.car? Very much so. I never doubted the security of a driver. On one
:57:29. > :57:34.occasion I was dealing with something extremely sensitive. After
:57:34. > :57:38.I said to the driver, " Did you hear any of that? . He said he never
:57:38. > :57:42.listened to anything. He just switched off and talked about
:57:42. > :57:48.something different. Probably because it's so boring. Right, now
:57:48. > :57:53.just before we go. We have to get the answer to quuries. Why is the
:57:53. > :58:00.Speaker's wife Sally Bercow in the headlines again? A, she's locked her
:58:00. > :58:04.husband out of the flat? Selling furniture on I bay and inviting
:58:04. > :58:09.buyers to pick it up. Varietying Nigel Farage for sea or putting an
:58:09. > :58:16.innocent face on her census form. They're all credible. That's the
:58:16. > :58:23.clever nature of this quiz! I think she locked him out. If only! She may
:58:23. > :58:31.have done. That we don't know. She's selling furniture on eBay. It's not
:58:31. > :58:35.the official furniture, it is her own furniture, innocent face. That's
:58:35. > :58:38.all for today. Thanks to our guests. The One O'clock News is starting
:58:38. > :58:40.over on BBC One now. I'll be back tonight at 11.35pm with John
:58:40. > :58:42.Simpson, Fiona Millar, John Prescott, Michael Portillo, Miranda
:58:42. > :58:45.Green, and making her first appearance with us will be