:00:45. > :00:48.Politics. Democracy in Egypt is over. It lasted no more than a year.
:00:48. > :00:53.Last night, soldiers arrested the man the people elected President
:00:53. > :00:57.after decades of military rule. To wild celebrations, in Cairo's
:00:57. > :01:03.main square. So what happens now, and why are
:01:03. > :01:07.these young people, liberal secular and pro-democracy cheering on the
:01:07. > :01:09.Army as it mounts a military coup. At home, ministers tighten the rules
:01:09. > :01:14.on immigration. How ever if Equitablive are the rules and are
:01:14. > :01:18.they tight enough? And who's upset the speaker and just
:01:18. > :01:23.what have they done wrong? The administration of this matter
:01:23. > :01:30.has been woefully inadequate and frankly utterly incompetent. I've
:01:30. > :01:36.not known a worst example during my tenure as speaker.
:01:36. > :01:41.Was he talking to you? ! No, it was you! Me?Yes. Better not be.
:01:41. > :01:46.All that in the next hour. With us throughout the programme, Melanie
:01:46. > :01:49.Phillips. This is from the blurb in her book, once a Guardian feature
:01:49. > :01:54.writer, she changed her mind on practically everything and emerged
:01:54. > :02:00.to champion the high moral ground at the Daily Mail. That's what your
:02:00. > :02:06.publishers say about you? I'm the publisher of my own book you see. I
:02:06. > :02:10.wrote that blurb. I'm an e-book publisher, thank you for the advert,
:02:10. > :02:15.wasn't expecting that, but thank you. Cheque's in the post.
:02:15. > :02:19.The big news story of the day - the military coup in Egypt. Yesterday,
:02:19. > :02:23.soldiers arrested President Mohammed Morsi, the country's first freely
:02:23. > :02:28.elected leader. The President's opponents had been camped out in
:02:28. > :02:31.Cairo's main square for days and the move sparked wild celebrations. Army
:02:31. > :02:35.chiefs say they are suspending the constitution which had been improved
:02:35. > :02:39.by a referendum just last year and are promising to hold new elections
:02:39. > :02:47.after a brief transition. Within the last hour, the Prime
:02:47. > :02:50.Minister has given his reaction. We have we never support the
:02:50. > :02:56.intervention by the military, but what now needs to happen, what we
:02:56. > :02:58.need to happen now in Egypt, is for democracy to flourish and for a
:02:59. > :03:04.genuine democratic transition to take place and all parties need to
:03:04. > :03:10.be involved. That's what Britain and our allies will be saying to the
:03:10. > :03:13.Egyptians. With us from Tahrir Square is the BBC's Ben Brown. Ben,
:03:14. > :03:17.we saw the wild celebrations, the pictures of Tahrir Square being
:03:18. > :03:21.full. What is the atmosphere like there now?
:03:21. > :03:26.Much quieter, Jo, than it was last night. Feels rather like the morning
:03:26. > :03:30.after the night before. Last night, that square was absolutely packed
:03:30. > :03:35.with tens of thousands of people and when they heard the announcement
:03:35. > :03:38.from the Head of The Armed Forces that effectively, they were taking
:03:38. > :03:43.over or there was going to be a new interim president taking over and
:03:44. > :03:47.that Mr Morsi was out of power, the people in the square went absolutely
:03:47. > :03:52.crazy, setting off fireworks, firing their green lasers into the night
:03:52. > :03:57.sky. Today, a lot quieter, a few people down on the square. The
:03:57. > :04:02.Egyptian Air Force actually a few minutes ago did a rather dramatic
:04:02. > :04:06.celebratory flypast over the city. Nine jets trailing red,
:04:06. > :04:09.black-and-white smoke, the colours of the Egyptian flag, so a
:04:09. > :04:13.celebration from the military, of course. The people here in the
:04:13. > :04:17.square have not described this as a military coup. They say it was
:04:17. > :04:22.people power that forced out Mohammed Morsi, but Mr Morsi's
:04:22. > :04:27.supporters in the country say he was this country's first democratically
:04:27. > :04:31.elected lead leader. Only a year ago he was elected with more than 50% of
:04:31. > :04:35.the vote and now he's been pushed out of power, they say, by a
:04:36. > :04:43.full-scale military coup. Thank you.
:04:43. > :04:47.We are joined by Jack Straw. He was Foreign Secretary from 2001-2006.
:04:47. > :04:52.Welcome to to Richard Ottaway too. Should we regard this as a military
:04:52. > :04:56.coup? Yes, because it is a military coup and the Middle East editor,
:04:56. > :04:59.Jeremy Bowen, has been saying exactly that. No two ways about it.
:04:59. > :05:03.Of course, there is obviously quite a lot of popular support for this,
:05:03. > :05:06.but we should be very clear indeed that if you have democratic
:05:06. > :05:10.elections and no-one said they weren't democratic when they took
:05:10. > :05:15.place a year ago, you need to respect the result, even if it is
:05:15. > :05:18.the result you don't like and so, a very clear message has to go out.
:05:18. > :05:23.Whatever the reality we have to accommodate now, we can't pick and
:05:23. > :05:27.choose the results of elections. We support the democratic principle
:05:27. > :05:30.because it's the best long-term way of ensuring stability and prosperity
:05:30. > :05:36.for people and that has to be the message for the people of Egypt.
:05:36. > :05:41.you regard it as a military coup, as Jack Straw described it? Yes, I do.
:05:41. > :05:45.Democracy really has gone out of the window here at the moment. I think
:05:45. > :05:48.there have been misunderstanding on all sides. I think the President,
:05:48. > :05:51.President Morsi, has decided he'd rule, rather than govern. The people
:05:51. > :05:57.have expected quick results which haven't been possible to achieve and
:05:57. > :06:01.I think the real mistake was when the constitutional court over
:06:01. > :06:05.overthrew or decided that the elections to the lower House were
:06:05. > :06:10.uncontusional and President Morsi didn't have fresh elections. That
:06:10. > :06:14.was the moment it started to go wrong. How long before the young
:06:14. > :06:19.people largely secular, liberal, as Jo was saying, who were cheering the
:06:19. > :06:23.demise of Mr Morsi last night, how long before the Army's knocking on
:06:23. > :06:28.their doors and starting to pull out their toe nails and stick catting
:06:28. > :06:33.prod in them? I'm afraid the default setting of the Egyptian military is
:06:33. > :06:38.not necessarily cattle prod, but it's to rule by that kind of method.
:06:38. > :06:43.And Richard is right to say that Morsi's error was to rule, not to
:06:43. > :06:47.govern, and not to recognise that if you are in a democracy, you give
:06:47. > :06:50.vent and power to the will of the majority, but you also are very
:06:50. > :06:53.careful about the rights of minorities and the rights of
:06:53. > :07:00.individuals who disagree with you. That's how you get a balance, as we
:07:00. > :07:07.have in this country. But this is not a military take-over is not a
:07:07. > :07:10.solution. Does the British Government recognise the military?
:07:10. > :07:13.As William Hague said this morning, we recognise states, not Government.
:07:13. > :07:17.We have made it clear that we intend to work with the new Government to
:07:17. > :07:21.try to bring about a democracy. Can I just pick up on a point that Jack
:07:21. > :07:26.was making there. These young people in Tahrir Square are enthusiastic
:07:27. > :07:30.and secular. The truth of the matter is, over 70% of Egypt is Islamic and
:07:30. > :07:33.voted for Islamic Parties in the one time they had a chance. Particular
:07:33. > :07:37.political the working case and the rural. I think the young people are
:07:37. > :07:41.still in for a big shock. They mange they have a result, but in the
:07:41. > :07:46.long-term... That was the point of my question to Jack.
:07:46. > :07:51.The fact is though, that the Muslim Brotherhood, the party was elected,
:07:51. > :07:57.a lot of people don't think the elections were quite as transparent
:07:57. > :08:00.as Jack Straw has made out, they've governed very badly and they have
:08:00. > :08:06.instituted a lot of the Islamic things that these young folk don't
:08:06. > :08:09.like. I mean, the country could be heading, either for a
:08:09. > :08:13.straightforward military dictatorship or a Civil War?
:08:13. > :08:18.could be heading for a number of things, including an Islamic
:08:18. > :08:20.Republic, an Islamic regime. But the mistake being made by my colleagues
:08:20. > :08:25.here and by the Prime Minister and the President of America is to
:08:25. > :08:29.confuse elections with democracy. I mean you are quite right that
:08:29. > :08:32.overturning an elected result, the result of an election, is not good.
:08:32. > :08:36.But the idea that elections bring democracy is simply false, as we
:08:36. > :08:44.have heard. Mr Morsi was governing uncontusionally. The people opt
:08:44. > :08:48.streets were reacting to what they saw as the progressive imposition of
:08:48. > :08:51.Islamic tyranny, which had been facilitated by the naivety and
:08:51. > :08:56.stupidity of the British and American Governments which looked at
:08:56. > :09:01.Mr Mubarak and helped lever him out and installed the Muslim Brotherhood
:09:01. > :09:05.on the basis of the Muslim Brotherhood as people we can do
:09:05. > :09:10.business with. They are Islamic fundamentalist fanatics and people
:09:10. > :09:15.are reacting against that. Sounds like an argument in favour of
:09:15. > :09:19.oligarchs. Richard nor I don't believe elections equal democracy.
:09:19. > :09:24.However, you may not have spotted this, but you can't have democracy
:09:24. > :09:29.without elections. It's a necessary but not a sufficient component of a
:09:29. > :09:32.democratic system and, one of the real tragedies is, they had
:09:32. > :09:36.elections, they are not perfect but they are relatively free, no-one
:09:36. > :09:41.denied the mandate that Morsi achieved. Plenty of mistakes were
:09:42. > :09:48.made. He won?He did win, fair and square. With the backing of the
:09:48. > :09:54.American President. Leave that fact out. It's important.I believe the
:09:54. > :09:57.future of the Arab world depends critically on there being democratic
:09:57. > :10:02.Governments installed. It's not happening though, is it? But the
:10:03. > :10:09.elections bring to power Islamic fundamental... Melanie, so what are
:10:09. > :10:15.you going to do? Are you going to send the tax in, whenever you go get
:10:15. > :10:18.a democracy you don't like, this was a failure, included a mistake made
:10:18. > :10:22.by me, Palestinian territories, we had elections and I kept saying to
:10:22. > :10:25.people, you could end up with the wrong answer, Hamas and we did.
:10:25. > :10:28.mistake after another from your Government and the Americans.
:10:28. > :10:33.can't say there shouldn't be elections. Sorry about this, what
:10:33. > :10:38.you have to say, even in this country we sometimes get Governments
:10:38. > :10:44.we don't like. There shouldn't be elections until you have free press,
:10:44. > :10:48.free judges, free police officers. This country took hundreds of years
:10:48. > :10:52.when before we got to the point of elections. What about the interim?
:10:52. > :10:56.You will have people in charge who're undemocratic regimes which
:10:56. > :11:00.are not nice and you have elected regimes which are nice. What do you
:11:00. > :11:07.make of the Egyptian Army? In many ways, it's similar to the Chinese
:11:07. > :11:11.Army, runs its own businesses, it's very important as as part of
:11:11. > :11:15.Egyptian society, it's a way Egyptians make your way up if you
:11:15. > :11:19.work hard. They are not going to give this up, are they? I was out in
:11:19. > :11:25.Egypt before the elections and met President Morsi before he became
:11:25. > :11:33.President. I have to say, Melanie, if you think President Morsi's a
:11:33. > :11:39.fundamentalist, you've got a big shop coming. Just go and visit the
:11:39. > :11:44.other hardliners. What a shame Mr Mubarak went. You think that's a
:11:44. > :11:48.shame? Absolutely. He was dreadful, but what came after him was worse
:11:48. > :11:51.and what will come after this will be worse. What I discussed with
:11:51. > :11:54.President Morsi was health, transport services and religion
:11:54. > :11:58.doesn't come into this stuff in providing basic fundamental
:11:58. > :12:01.services. That's why the Americans, rightly, decided they were people
:12:01. > :12:07.they could do business with. Jack Straw, can I ask you to step back a
:12:07. > :12:11.bit. If we look at the borders of this part of the Maghreb and into
:12:11. > :12:16.the Lavant, they were all drawn, just half a mile from here, in the
:12:16. > :12:25.office where you use Yahoo!ed to work by Mr Sykes, the Brit and Mr
:12:25. > :12:32.Pickle, the Frenchman. That survived in various ways. -- used to work.
:12:32. > :12:37.Are we seeing this Syrian war tipping into Lebanon with these
:12:37. > :12:43.events in Egypt, is that the Sykes Pickle settlement beginning to
:12:43. > :12:47.unravel? Look, the Sykes Pickle settlement was never a proper
:12:47. > :12:51.settlement because during the First World War, we made three
:12:51. > :12:58.contradictory sets of undertakes, this agreement was to carve up the
:12:58. > :13:03.Arab world, Maghreb, Lavant between France and the UK. There was letters
:13:03. > :13:07.which basically said it was handed over to the Arabs and then the
:13:07. > :13:11.Balfour one which said we'd create a state of Israel. We created the
:13:11. > :13:14.stability, that said that's getting on for 100 years ago. What is
:13:14. > :13:19.happening now? We have to do our best to ensure that there is
:13:19. > :13:23.relative stability there and I just say to Melanie whose argument in
:13:23. > :13:28.favour of authoritarian regimes is refreshingly honest if nothing else,
:13:28. > :13:32.that one of the reasons you have had a rise of not just thes Muslim
:13:32. > :13:37.Brotherhood but also the Salifies, is precisely because people's wish
:13:37. > :13:41.to have a say and for prosperity was held down by the regimes like
:13:41. > :13:45.Mubarak and you reap what you sew in this life, Melanie. Easy agree.
:13:45. > :13:49.That's why you have the problems. agree and I'm the first person to
:13:49. > :13:54.support the desire for true democracy among a proportion of the
:13:54. > :14:01.population. When you say I support authoritarian regimes, you know
:14:01. > :14:03.that's a can cheap jibe. I'm saying that you in your naivety are setting
:14:03. > :14:09.the authoritarian regimes against democracy. What you have brought
:14:09. > :14:15.about is, through the appearance of democracy, elected dictatorships.
:14:16. > :14:20.All right. Richard, an attempt to look at the wider picture now -
:14:20. > :14:24.these countries that were created, you can see how artificial they are
:14:24. > :14:27.because they are straight, so you know someone draws on the map. You
:14:27. > :14:31.have Iran standing to the east of all this, a major player in Syria
:14:31. > :14:36.and in Lebanon, on the border with Israel, we have Civil War in Syria,
:14:36. > :14:40.we have Jordan on its knees because it cannot afford to look after these
:14:40. > :14:43.refugees and they are destabilising it. We could be on the brink. We
:14:43. > :14:50.have had a military coup in Egypt and we could be on the brink of
:14:50. > :14:55.Civil War there. This region is unravelling, I would suggest to you?
:14:55. > :14:58.In total turmoil and was intervention, Melanie and I
:14:58. > :15:01.fundamentally disagree with you, we are facing a major configuration
:15:01. > :15:05.where the people are trying to express their views. It's not a
:15:05. > :15:13.spring or uprising, it's a change. It's a fundamental change. You are
:15:13. > :15:17.right to point to Iran pulling the strings with Hezbollah. The
:15:17. > :15:22.Palestine Israel question is off the agenda now at the moment. Jordan is
:15:22. > :15:26.really struggling. The king is doing his best at the moment. One rule and
:15:26. > :15:30.one thing that comes out of this, the rule we are going to learn from
:15:30. > :15:34.history is you have to stay ahead of the curve and this is a man busting
:15:34. > :15:38.a gut here to stay ahead of the curve and to do the right thing and
:15:38. > :15:43.hold on to the country. We are leaving the country, but we are not
:15:43. > :15:46.leaving the region, are we? We'll look at Syria in more detail. Next
:15:46. > :15:49.weekend, MPs will debate whether they should be given a vet if ever
:15:49. > :15:53.the British Government decides to send weapons to the opposition. In a
:15:53. > :16:03.moment, we'll discuss the vexed issue of arming the rebels, but
:16:03. > :16:09.
:16:09. > :16:13.first, Adam will bring us up-to-date the United Nations estimates that
:16:13. > :16:18.90,000 have been killed and nearly 2 million have become refugees. A
:16:18. > :16:21.fortnight ago, the White House confirmed that Assad had used
:16:21. > :16:26.chemical weapons. The Obama administration also said it was
:16:26. > :16:30.upping its support for the rebels, who are massively outgunned. The UK
:16:30. > :16:33.is still providing them with non-lethal assistance such as
:16:33. > :16:37.armoured vehicles and body armour. Next week, MPs will debate whether
:16:37. > :16:41.they should be given a vote if the British government bans to go any
:16:41. > :16:47.further. There are still questions about who the rebels are. The BBC
:16:47. > :16:51.has seen mounting evidence of Sharia law in some of the areas that they
:16:51. > :16:55.hold, including the execution of a 14-year-old boy for blasphemy. All
:16:55. > :16:59.sides came in for criticism from our guest of the day on question Time
:16:59. > :17:09.last month. She said the real issue was Iran and got this reaction when
:17:09. > :17:11.
:17:11. > :17:14.she said it was a country that That is the problem, the defeatism
:17:14. > :17:20.of the British people against a clear threat to this country's
:17:20. > :17:25.interest. It was all smiles at the G8 summit.
:17:25. > :17:28.All they can read agree on is where the regime and rebel should meet for
:17:28. > :17:32.peace talks in Geneva, which seem to be slipping further and further into
:17:32. > :17:40.the distance. Richard Ottaway and Jack Straw are
:17:40. > :17:44.still with us. Do we know who the rebels are in Syria? We know a lot
:17:44. > :17:48.of who the rebels are, a lot of them are sensible, some of them are not.
:17:48. > :17:53.Some of them give us very great cause for alarm. One of the reason
:17:53. > :17:58.why I am a reluctant... Not wholly opposed but reluctant to see us
:17:58. > :18:01.arming the rebels, I certainly would not vote for it if there was a vote
:18:01. > :18:06.tomorrow, I am not clear what controls there would be on the
:18:06. > :18:12.weaponry. Is David Cameron being naive in his apparent support for
:18:12. > :18:16.the rebels, non-lethal support as he would call it? No, I think it is a
:18:16. > :18:22.sensible humanitarian gesture, as long as it is non-lethal support.
:18:22. > :18:27.The difficulty is knowing what is non-lethal and what is lethal. Is
:18:27. > :18:31.training people with weapons lethal support? I think David Cameron is
:18:31. > :18:37.driven by Basic instinct, to try to stabilise the region and he will do
:18:37. > :18:43.what ever he thinks necessary. The humanitarian case has been appalling
:18:44. > :18:49.but we are now seeing images of sharia law being used, the execution
:18:49. > :18:55.of a 14-year-old boy is equally shocking. What does it do to your
:18:55. > :18:58.mindset when dealing with the Syrian situation? There are good rebels and
:18:58. > :19:04.bad rebels and the trouble is finding a distinction between the
:19:04. > :19:11.two. The whole region is fragmenting and I agree that bundling in a few
:19:11. > :19:14.cases of rivals will not help things at all. We should only do something
:19:14. > :19:19.in Syria if we think it would improve the lives and prosperity of
:19:19. > :19:24.the people of Syria. Gesture politics is long gone here and there
:19:24. > :19:31.is no obviously should. Maybe just doing nothing is the right solution.
:19:31. > :19:35.Is it the right decision? I think I absolutely agree, we are looking at
:19:35. > :19:39.two hideous alternatives in Syria. Assad is a hideous situation and we
:19:39. > :19:43.can all see what a terrible butcher and tyrant he is. He has run a
:19:43. > :19:47.regime which is a sponsor of international terrorism against
:19:47. > :19:52.Western interest, so he is terrible. What opposes him is as
:19:52. > :19:56.bad, if not worse, probably worse, insofar as the intentions towards us
:19:56. > :20:01.are concerned. It is a bit like what I was saying earlier about
:20:01. > :20:05.authoritarian regimes. We are facing... Looking at the Middle East
:20:05. > :20:09.region, facing a situation where there is no good option. It is only
:20:09. > :20:14.a series of what is the least worst option. It is a hideous choice but
:20:14. > :20:17.from our point of view there is no point in getting involved in arming
:20:17. > :20:23.people who might themselves be extremely dubious and not in our
:20:23. > :20:27.best interest to arm, and secondly, those arms may fall into the hands
:20:27. > :20:33.of people who are really a threat to us. Should the government be
:20:33. > :20:37.supporting the rebels at all? No. view is that in the whole region, we
:20:37. > :20:43.should only ever be involved if there is a clear advantage to our
:20:43. > :20:48.national interest. It is not the case that we are doing nothing.
:20:48. > :20:55.There is a great deal of non-lethal support. It is doing quite a lot of
:20:55. > :21:05.Anshuman a Terry and aid. Slightly more hopeful news from the region --
:21:05. > :21:12.
:21:12. > :21:19.Iranians. There is a chance that we can. I am not naive about Iran.
:21:19. > :21:29.did not get anywhere four-year is? We were getting somewhere. -- you
:21:29. > :21:31.
:21:32. > :21:36.Americans got what they didn't want, Ahmadinejad. We have got to get Iran
:21:36. > :21:40.to this peace conference which is planned in Geneva. What did you mean
:21:40. > :21:47.when you said Iran should be neutralised? Green I meant that, the
:21:47. > :21:50.threat should be neutralised. It is stunningly naive and we have been
:21:50. > :21:54.negotiating with Iran one way or another for a very long time. We
:21:54. > :22:04.have given them the one priceless gift they wanted, time to make their
:22:04. > :22:06.
:22:06. > :22:13.lot of alarming evidence that they don't want nuclear energy just for
:22:13. > :22:19.peaceful purposes. We have a former British Foreign Secretary here,
:22:19. > :22:25.seeming to question that Iran has a nuclear programme for weapons
:22:25. > :22:28.purposes, is that what you are saying? My instinct about Iran is
:22:29. > :22:31.that they are building a civil nuclear programme and they want the
:22:31. > :22:36.intellectual capacity to make a nuclear weapons programme as well,
:22:36. > :22:39.but there is no evidence, not from the IAEA, not from the Americans,
:22:39. > :22:43.quite the reverse from the Americans, which says there is a
:22:43. > :22:50.smoking gun here. Much less of a smoking gun then there was in
:22:50. > :22:55.respect of Iraq or Libya. Are you saying they are not involved in
:22:55. > :23:01.building a bomb as we speak? I don't know for certain but there is no
:23:01. > :23:09.evidence they are involved in building a bomb at the moment.
:23:09. > :23:13.halfway between these two. The IAEA, which I went to the other day, is a
:23:13. > :23:19.very cautious organisation and they will not say they are building a
:23:19. > :23:22.bomb unless they can hold up a bomb. That isn't going to happen. But they
:23:22. > :23:28.are saying there is quite a lot of supporting evidence that they have
:23:28. > :23:35.gone beyond the civil programme, into a nuclear capacity. You said
:23:35. > :23:38.neutralised but you did not say how. We only had sanctions that started
:23:38. > :23:44.to bite quite recently and that was a terrible mistake. Military action
:23:44. > :23:51.always much be an absolute last resort. You only take military
:23:52. > :24:00.action if the alternative is worse. Neutralise means we have to remove
:24:00. > :24:04.the threat of the Iranian nuclear bomb. The war?No, which means no
:24:04. > :24:13.longer talking to them. Which means excluding them from the Society of
:24:13. > :24:17.civilised nations, which we have not done. Will it make a difference?
:24:17. > :24:23.Absolutely. They must know that there is a big stick that we are
:24:23. > :24:26.wielding, the Americans, it is only the Americans who matter. The United
:24:26. > :24:33.States publishes a National intelligence estimate, they
:24:33. > :24:37.published one in 2007, saying that they judge that Iran had abandoned
:24:37. > :24:40.its development of nuclear weapons programmes in 2003 and saw no
:24:40. > :24:49.evidence it was being brought back. That has not been countermanded
:24:49. > :24:55.since. I accept there is ambiguous evidence about the enrichment of
:24:55. > :24:58.uranium but that does not equal a bomb. Are you satisfied that the
:24:58. > :25:03.government has committed itself to the idea there would be a vote in
:25:03. > :25:07.parliament before arms could be sent to Syrian rebels? Absolutely, Andrew
:25:07. > :25:14.Lansley, leader of the house, said it in undeniable terms, that there
:25:14. > :25:21.would be a vote. The debate is slightly academic. And a vote that
:25:21. > :25:26.the government probably would not win. It depends what is proposed.As
:25:27. > :25:29.always. Thank you, gentlemen. The Government has been promising
:25:30. > :25:32.more action on immigration this week - clamping down on landlords renting
:25:32. > :25:35.to illegal immigrants and charging non-European migrants to use the
:25:35. > :25:45.NHS. Today, ministers have been talking about tightening up on the
:25:45. > :25:50.
:25:50. > :25:52.rules on soldiers who might want to bring family members into the UK. In
:25:52. > :25:55.a moment we'll talk to the Immigration Minister about the
:25:55. > :25:57.changes but first, Jo's going to take us through the coalition's
:25:57. > :26:00.attempts to reduce net migration. The Conservative Party's 2010
:26:00. > :26:04.Manifesto stated: "We will take steps to take net migration back to
:26:04. > :26:06.the levels of the 1990s - tens of thousands a year, not hundreds of
:26:06. > :26:09.thousands". To achieve this, the coalition has introduced a number of
:26:09. > :26:11.measures to reduce non-EU migrants. Since 2011 they have imposed an
:26:11. > :26:17.immigration cap stipulating that only 20,700 non-European workers can
:26:17. > :26:19.enter the UK each year. The rules surrounding visas for non-European
:26:19. > :26:25.students have been tightened and hundreds of colleges stripped of
:26:25. > :26:27.their rights to bring international students to the UK. They have also
:26:27. > :26:31.introduced new rules for the families of migrants from outside
:26:31. > :26:39.Europe - you must earn a minimum of �18,600 if you want to bring a
:26:39. > :26:44.spouse or partner into the country, more if you have children as well.
:26:44. > :26:46.Today this has been extended to cover members of the Armed Forces.
:26:46. > :26:51.And yesterday, proposals were unveiled that could see non-EU
:26:51. > :26:55.migrants forced to pay at least �200 a year to access the NHS. Despite
:26:55. > :26:58.proving controversial, these measures appear to be working. The
:26:58. > :27:05.most recent figures showed a drop in net migration of 89,000 to 153,000
:27:05. > :27:08.in the year ending September 2012. But they can't do anything about the
:27:08. > :27:11.number of European immigrants and with restrictions due to be lifted
:27:11. > :27:20.on Romanians and Bulgarians entering the country at the end of the year,
:27:20. > :27:23.could we be set to experience a rise again?
:27:23. > :27:30.I'm now joined by the Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee
:27:30. > :27:33.Keith Vaz, and the Immigration Minister Mark Harper. Mark Harper,
:27:33. > :27:40.you have extended the family migration rules, you want to bring
:27:40. > :27:45.in your spouse, to cover the Armed Forces. You set a salary limit of
:27:45. > :27:50.�18,600 a year. Which is higher than the basic salary of a regular
:27:50. > :27:55.soldier. We looked carefully at that. After three years in the Armed
:27:55. > :27:59.Forces, most member will be earning higher than that number. We have
:27:59. > :28:02.done two things. When we brought the rules in last year, we deliberately
:28:02. > :28:04.did not bring them into the Armed Forces because the Home Office and
:28:04. > :28:09.Ministry of Defence wanted to make sure we would not disadvantaged
:28:09. > :28:13.people, articulate those who serve overseas. When we brought in the
:28:13. > :28:17.rules that apply to the Armed Forces, those who are already on a
:28:17. > :28:24.path to a settlement, who have applied for a Visa, will be dealt
:28:24. > :28:27.with under the old rules. It applies to new people who join and we have
:28:27. > :28:34.very good and transitional arrangements which will be made
:28:34. > :28:41.clear to service personnel. If you are in phase one training on �275 a
:28:41. > :28:47.week, it rises to �17,767 after a year. You have been serving your
:28:47. > :28:50.country and you have set a limit higher than what they are learning.
:28:50. > :28:53.The rules should apply to everybody who wants to bring a foreign
:28:53. > :28:57.national spouse into the United Kingdom, they apply to everybody
:28:57. > :29:03.else in the UK. Once you have been in the Armed Forces for three years,
:29:03. > :29:08.your salary will in able you to do that and we think it is fair and
:29:08. > :29:13.reasonable. If you are an officer you can do it, but if you are a
:29:13. > :29:17.squaddie, you will not be able to. Once you have been in the Armed
:29:17. > :29:20.Forces for three years, you will be earning more than the salary level.
:29:21. > :29:26.It was one of the questions I asked we looked at income through the
:29:26. > :29:29.Armed Forces. This is most unfair but my constituents have had to put
:29:29. > :29:33.up with this since the rules changed. The average salary in
:29:33. > :29:36.Leicester is 16,000. You are now allowed to fall in love, you are
:29:36. > :29:44.allowed to get married, at you can't bring your spouse in unless you
:29:44. > :29:46.reach that limit. I thought it was a booming migrant city of
:29:46. > :29:55.entrepreneurs and hard-working successful people? You're not paying
:29:55. > :30:05.them enough restaurant I don't do them the pain. I don't work for the
:30:05. > :30:08.
:30:09. > :30:12.BBC so they have to take what they some are working very long hours to
:30:12. > :30:18.get up to that limit. I don't think there was abuse under the old
:30:18. > :30:22.system. Mark and his government extended the length of time people
:30:22. > :30:28.had to stay here before they could get indefinite leave and claim
:30:28. > :30:31.benefits. I think it was the right thing to do, to make it a longer
:30:31. > :30:36.probation or period, and that is the way you deal with abuse --
:30:36. > :30:39.probationary period. I think the service personnel will have years
:30:40. > :30:48.and years of misery without their spouses before they come in and that
:30:48. > :30:51.is very sad. Let me make it clear why Twell made the changes. You can
:30:51. > :30:54.fall in love and marry whoever you want. If you want to bring your
:30:54. > :30:58.family to the UK, we are just asking you to support them, rather than the
:30:58. > :31:04.taxpayer. The reason we set the salary level, it wasn't a made up
:31:05. > :31:08.figure, we got the migration advisory committee to do some
:31:08. > :31:11.research on it. You have to stand on your own two feet. We had a debate
:31:11. > :31:14.in the House of Commons and there's a debate in the House of Lords this
:31:14. > :31:18.afternoon. Lots of Labour MPs didn't like it and said it was unfair.
:31:18. > :31:21.Interestingly, and Keith's challenged the Labour frontbench on
:31:21. > :31:27.this, the Labour frontbench don't seem to be disagreeing with this. I
:31:27. > :31:30.think they know it's the right thing to do and it's popular. It's about
:31:30. > :31:34.making people being able to support themselves. In general, is the
:31:34. > :31:39.Government on the right track on immigration? In general I think they
:31:39. > :31:45.are. I mean, it's a very serious problem that we now face, due to
:31:45. > :31:49.many years of wilful neglect and worse, in just ignoring the terrible
:31:49. > :31:54.strain put on the country by accepting too many people. The
:31:54. > :31:58.Government is trying to bite the bullet. I'm not sure about the
:31:58. > :32:04.arcane details of precisely what salary levels should be and so on,
:32:04. > :32:07.but the minister makes a perfectly reasonable case about the point
:32:07. > :32:11.people standing on their own two feet, we should say welcome to them.
:32:11. > :32:16.We should say welcome to immigrants, immigration enriches the life of a
:32:16. > :32:21.nation. I myself am the grand child of immigrants, but we all have to
:32:21. > :32:27.understand that there comes a point where a society simply can't take so
:32:27. > :32:32.many people. Keith Vaz, there is a general mood in the country that
:32:32. > :32:36.we'd like a break from mass immigration, which is what we had
:32:36. > :32:39.during the Labour years? The 26 years I've been in Parliament,
:32:39. > :32:43.there's always been the issue of immigration. Thest not something
:32:43. > :32:48.new, Melanie. People have always said there's too many people coming
:32:48. > :32:51.in, I declare my interest as a first generation immigrant, I was nine
:32:51. > :32:56.when I came here. Immigration's hugely benefitted the UK, however,
:32:56. > :33:04.it's the detail that's going to cause so many difficulties. Are you
:33:04. > :33:10.against the principle under Labour? It rose to over a net immigration
:33:10. > :33:14.into this country of over 250,000, sometimes higher than that. As a
:33:14. > :33:18.growth figure, it was over 500,000 a year. The Government want to bring
:33:18. > :33:22.this down, it was a manifesto pledge of theirs, is that right or wrong?
:33:22. > :33:26.It's right under Labour and under this Government as well. The system
:33:26. > :33:30.of immigration is still broken. It was Theresa May who said only in
:33:30. > :33:36.March of this year that the body that was administered to look after
:33:36. > :33:40.immigration, the UK Border Agency was closed, secretive and defensive.
:33:40. > :33:44.That hasn't changed in four months, it's the administration that's the
:33:45. > :33:49.problem. You can avoid my broader question, but is it right to be
:33:49. > :33:53.cutting net migration by roughly the ballpark figure that the Government
:33:53. > :33:57.is attempting? No, it isn't right because, at the Prime Minister said
:33:57. > :34:01.in the leaked letter today, what's happened on education is that fewer
:34:01. > :34:05.students want to come into this country. As a result of that, he's
:34:05. > :34:08.suggesting, or somebody in Number Ten is suggesting that people should
:34:08. > :34:12.be allowed to go to our schools and pay to go to our schools when they
:34:12. > :34:16.come from abroad. The proper universities in this country have
:34:16. > :34:21.had a record intake of foreign students? They have.Public schools
:34:21. > :34:27.have been closing which you allowed to flourish under Labour? I didn't
:34:27. > :34:30.because I wasn't the minister. were an avatar for Labour?
:34:30. > :34:34.committee's made it clear that under successive Governments, they had not
:34:34. > :34:37.done enough about abuse. This is changing and the issue is cutting
:34:37. > :34:41.down on abuse, welcoming people and there's common ground on this
:34:41. > :34:45.between Mark and I, those who make a contribution should be allowed to
:34:45. > :34:49.come to our country. Those who come illegally... Sometimes you don't
:34:49. > :34:53.know it until they arrive? I'm not in favour of the amnesty, for
:34:53. > :34:56.example. People would never have known you were going to make a
:34:56. > :35:00.contribution until you got here. At the border we probably would have
:35:00. > :35:04.said, don't let him in, and what a mistake that would job! You would
:35:04. > :35:08.have noticed the skills I would have contributed and immediately let me
:35:08. > :35:14.and my sisters in! But the fact is, let's take the politics out of
:35:14. > :35:21.immigration. I think... Really?Yes. There's a lot of common ground.
:35:21. > :35:26.We'll all be pushing up the Daisies before that happens. The only party,
:35:26. > :35:29.an anti-immigration party, is UKIP. The rest there's common ground.
:35:29. > :35:32.Melanie's right. We welcome immigrants, but people want a system
:35:32. > :35:37.that's under control. We want people coming here to contribute. The
:35:37. > :35:44.points we made in the consultations yesterday about making people come
:35:44. > :35:47.here to study and about make making contributions to the Health Service,
:35:47. > :35:53.that's right, stopping people being able to rent property if they don't
:35:53. > :35:58.have the right to be here is right, so it discourages those who're not
:35:58. > :36:07.having a trying be here. We have rules on family migrations, you can
:36:07. > :36:11.come here and you have to stand on your own two feet, don't expect the
:36:11. > :36:15.taxpayer to contribute for you. and sausages are two things you
:36:15. > :36:18.never want to see being made. The European Parliament in a surprise
:36:18. > :36:23.move yesterday passed a Bill that will have a huge effect on energy
:36:23. > :36:26.Bills for the next 40 years. It will force up the price of carbon
:36:26. > :36:30.allowances and the EU's Emissions Trading Scheme. That's not been a
:36:30. > :36:34.great success so far. It's largely been irrelevant. They are trying to
:36:34. > :36:37.change that. It seeks to make businesses pay for the CO 2
:36:37. > :36:42.emissions and they'll pass on the Cos to the consumer. That would be
:36:42. > :36:46.us, by which point we won't feel so enthusiastic about it. The vote ends
:36:46. > :36:51.over the future of the EU oo else energy and climate change policy and
:36:51. > :37:01.the climate change commissioner, Connie Hedegaard joins us now from
:37:01. > :37:04.
:37:04. > :37:08.Brussels -- E U's commissioner. Why are you pushing up the costs at a
:37:08. > :37:12.time when it's on its knees? We are not pushing up costs, we are taking
:37:12. > :37:16.care that despite the Christ sits in Europe, we are not making it free,
:37:16. > :37:22.making it cost nothing to pollute. I think most Europeans would agree
:37:22. > :37:31.that that would not be a wise future strategy for Europe. What we are
:37:31. > :37:34.trying to achieve is that the price to pollute will come back to what
:37:34. > :37:40.they were last fall. It's extremely important to get the proportion
:37:40. > :37:45.right. So far the scheme's been ineffective because the price hasn't
:37:45. > :37:52.mattered, it's down to five euros I think, a metric tonne of CO 2 and
:37:52. > :37:56.maybe even lower, so it doesn't affect it. You can only get the
:37:56. > :38:00.industries to produce less CO 2 if you charge them a lot more for doing
:38:00. > :38:09.it. So by definition, your same to make it more expensive to do
:38:09. > :38:11.business in Europe? It. So by definition, your same to
:38:11. > :38:14.make it more expensive to do business in Europe?
:38:14. > :38:18.We want to put a price on pollution. It's clear that if I say we should
:38:18. > :38:23.take care that the price is not coming too close to zero, that the
:38:23. > :38:28.price costs more than if it was at zero. I'm not sure that's bad for
:38:28. > :38:33.industry. When we analyse in the commission which sectors have the
:38:33. > :38:38.potential in Europe in the coming years, to create the jobs we so
:38:38. > :38:43.badly need in Europe, which sectors come out? Communication, health and
:38:43. > :38:48.the green sector, renewables, energy efficiency and waste handling. That
:38:48. > :38:53.has actually been proven through the crisis that the green sector has the
:38:53. > :38:59.potential really and has done and made a contribution to net creation
:38:59. > :39:02.of jobs. So I would say if there is an incentive to produce greener,
:39:02. > :39:08.cleaner, more efficient products, on the other hand is what this whole
:39:08. > :39:11.discussion is all about, then it can stimulate innovation in our
:39:11. > :39:16.countries and create growth and export possibilities for Europe. I
:39:16. > :39:22.simply do not buy the claim that if we had a decent price on polluting
:39:22. > :39:26.with CO2 that it's a negative effect for jobs. It's not. But Europe is
:39:26. > :39:30.awash with unemployed people and even before you eve... Not because
:39:30. > :39:37.of climate policies. Let me finish the question. But that is extremely
:39:37. > :39:44.parent to get it right -- important to get right... Even before you add
:39:44. > :39:48.to the price, European energy costs are the highest in the world.
:39:48. > :39:53.Germany's 40% higher than the average, this country's lost its
:39:53. > :40:02.almum-in industry because of the costs. French companies are
:40:02. > :40:06.investing in America now, being built in the East Ohio Valley. In
:40:06. > :40:10.BASF, one of the biggest producers of chemicals, now unvesting in the
:40:10. > :40:15.US, not in Germany, you are forcing industry to leave? !
:40:15. > :40:20.No. It's simply wrong. Although it was a very, very long question for
:40:20. > :40:23.someone who's supposed to interview, but take the steel sector that you
:40:23. > :40:28.mentioned, we have just analysed that very carefully in the
:40:28. > :40:32.commission, together with the steel sector. Why does the steel sector in
:40:32. > :40:36.Europe have problems? They have it because they have Sa surplus
:40:36. > :40:40.capacity, they have too much capacity. Some people, like
:40:40. > :40:45.yourselves, tend to argue that that's because of climate policies,
:40:45. > :40:50.but what is the reality - the reality is that the steel sector up
:40:50. > :40:54.until this very day has benefitted economically from the European
:40:54. > :40:59.emissions ratings scheme, even the steel sector would admit that after
:40:59. > :41:02.the exercise exercise we have been through with them. My point is that
:41:02. > :41:06.yes we are in very challenging times in Europe. It's incredibly important
:41:06. > :41:11.to create the jobs. It's not a purpose in itself to give people
:41:11. > :41:17.higher bills for anything, but if I were going to choose, should we
:41:17. > :41:20.lower taxation and pricing of Labour or should we do it with energy and
:41:20. > :41:25.resources, I believe that most Europeans would agree, it is
:41:25. > :41:28.probably a very good idea for Europe to become more energy efficient as
:41:28. > :41:34.almost no region in the world imports as much of its energy as we
:41:34. > :41:41.do in Europe. How would we bring down that kind of cost? Last year,
:41:41. > :41:46.every day in Europe, we paid 1 billion euros for our oil, our
:41:46. > :41:50.imported oil. Wouldn't it be a good idea to have an incentive to become
:41:50. > :41:54.more energy and resource official, bring down that kind of cost and
:41:54. > :42:01.instead invest in activities and industries in Europe? That is
:42:01. > :42:04.pacically at the core of of what we are trying to do. OK, I had a long
:42:04. > :42:09.question, but you were allowed a long answer. What's more important
:42:09. > :42:12.to you, capping CO2 emissions or getting jobs for the 25 million
:42:12. > :42:16.people in Europe who don't have jobs? A very good question. To me
:42:16. > :42:21.it's not an either or. We have to get out of the economic crisis and
:42:21. > :42:25.create the jobs. It's not so that we can say, let's do that first and
:42:25. > :42:29.then some five, ten, 15 years from now when we have nothing else to do
:42:29. > :42:33.hopefully, then we could come to our climate challenges and resource
:42:33. > :42:38.challenges. We have to do it intelligently - we
:42:38. > :42:41.do that by trying to find the instruments, the tools, where we can
:42:41. > :42:45.both do something good for our economy and create the jobs we need
:42:45. > :42:49.and at the same time also do it in a way that's not harming the climate
:42:49. > :42:53.policies. Unfortunately, climate change is getting worse, so that is
:42:53. > :42:58.also a crisis that we need to attend to as part of the economic
:42:58. > :43:02.challenge. Sorry, I haven't got time to pursue you on your claim there
:43:02. > :43:07.that climate change is getting worse. We have to leave it there,
:43:07. > :43:10.come back and see us soon for another interview. Will you do that?
:43:10. > :43:15.Yes, you are welcome. Bye-bye. a good day.
:43:15. > :43:19.I think that's a yes! The speaker of the House doesn't have an easy job.
:43:19. > :43:24.No, I don't envy him. One minute you are keeping across the mind
:43:24. > :43:28.numbingly boring detail of a Parliamentary legislation detail,
:43:28. > :43:35.the next you are trying to keep the House in order while hundreds of MPs
:43:35. > :43:39.yell at each other. So speakers develop a bruising and robust style.
:43:39. > :43:46.John Bercow had a go at the Secretary of Defence Philip Hammond
:43:46. > :43:55.when he refused to produce notes. One thing is for certain, if you get
:43:55. > :44:02.told off by John Bercow, you stay told off by him. Here is a look at
:44:02. > :44:07.him. Woefully inadequate and frankly utterly incompetent. I've not known
:44:07. > :44:10.a worst example as my tenure as speaker. Although the Secretary of
:44:10. > :44:13.State's expressed himself in understated terms, I hope he feels a
:44:13. > :44:17.sense of embarrassment and contrition at what has been a total
:44:17. > :44:23.mishandling by his Department for Which the right honourable gentleman
:44:23. > :44:26.is solely responsible. If we could tackle this problem,
:44:27. > :44:30.then... I say to the honourable member for Bridgwater, be quiet, if
:44:30. > :44:36.you can't be quiet, get out. You are adding nothing, you are subtracting
:44:36. > :44:42.a lot. It's rude, it's stupid, it's pompous and it needs to stop.
:44:42. > :44:47.She tends 20 behave as though every exchange is somehow a conversation
:44:47. > :44:50.with her. If the Government had wanted - don't shake her head - if
:44:50. > :44:54.the Government wanted to put the honourable lady up to answer, it
:44:54. > :45:00.could have done. It didn't. What I say in all courtesy to the
:45:00. > :45:04.honourable lady is, sit there, be quiet and if you can't do so, leave
:45:04. > :45:08.the chamber, we can manage without you.
:45:08. > :45:12.Mr Stuart, I'm going to say it to you once and once only, you are far
:45:12. > :45:16.too excitable, be quiet and calm down and - order! If you can't,
:45:16. > :45:23.don't shake your head at me! If you can't, leave the chamber.
:45:23. > :45:25.Leave the studio, Andrew, John Bercow - calling Phillip
:45:25. > :45:29.Hammond incompetent and Ian Liddle-Grainger stupid - amongst
:45:29. > :45:34.others. So what do MPs think of his robust style in the House? Rob
:45:35. > :45:38.Wilson is the Conservative MP for Reading East. What do you think?
:45:38. > :45:41.Yesterday I think it was a high point because I think he did the
:45:41. > :45:46.right thing, he said it in a way that was not too angry and to
:45:46. > :45:50.robust. Generally, there is a suspicion with John Bercow that he
:45:50. > :45:54.fails to have a balanced and unbiased view of the house. In the
:45:54. > :46:00.sense that he takes on Conservative MPs and ministers to a greater
:46:00. > :46:08.degree than he does Labour shadow ministers and MPs. Is that just your
:46:08. > :46:11.view sitting there as an MP? You have any evidence? I produce a six
:46:11. > :46:17.monthly survey which clearly shows that John Bercow has intervened in a
:46:17. > :46:23.quite robust way on Conservative is about 65% of the time, when we only
:46:23. > :46:31.have about 46, 40 5% of the MPs. He does so to a much less degree with
:46:31. > :46:37.Labour MPs. There is a record to look at. Melanie, are you a fan of
:46:37. > :46:41.the speaker? Not really, my impression has been that he shows
:46:41. > :46:47.partisan ship towards the Labour side. Also, the extract that you
:46:47. > :46:51.showed showed him breaking members of Parliament for being excitable.
:46:51. > :46:58.One of my problems with him is that he is very excitable. He seems to
:46:58. > :47:04.sort of lose it very often, and this does not do well for the speaker's
:47:04. > :47:10.whole stature. The speaker should be above the fray. The great speakers
:47:10. > :47:17.in my experience, Speaker Thomas and Betty Boothroyd sale Serena Leon.
:47:17. > :47:25.You never felt that Betty Boothroyd was scrapping in the benches --
:47:25. > :47:31.serenely on. John Bercow does try to champion the backbenchers. Has he
:47:32. > :47:37.not modernised it? He has taken control, perhaps you don't like the
:47:37. > :47:42.style but he has done rather a lot for Parliament. He has changed since
:47:42. > :47:47.2010 when the new government came in. He uses urgent questions a lot
:47:47. > :47:50.more since then, to hold the government to account. A massive
:47:50. > :47:53.increase in urgent questions which is difficult for the government to
:47:54. > :48:00.deal with. You ask yourself, why didn't he do that when he first came
:48:00. > :48:05.in? All right, but getting ministers to come to the house and demanding
:48:05. > :48:09.answers in principle, is a good thing. It is and many backbenchers
:48:09. > :48:16.welcome that. He has made changes that benefit backbenchers to that
:48:16. > :48:18.extent. Sometimes you get the feeling that the wave of
:48:18. > :48:23.unpopularity on the Conservative benches is that they are obsessed
:48:23. > :48:28.about this idea that he is biased, rather than what he's doing in terms
:48:28. > :48:32.of his role for the house. I think if he is partisan, that is a very
:48:32. > :48:38.significant reason why it people would not take kindly to him. The
:48:38. > :48:40.fact is coming in May well have done some very good things in terms of
:48:40. > :48:45.Parliamentary procedure, I am prepared to give him all credit for
:48:45. > :48:51.that. But is this going to be one of the great speakers of our time? I
:48:51. > :48:55.think the answer is no. He does have the potential to be a great speaker,
:48:55. > :49:00.he is very articulate, able and bright. The way he puts things can
:49:00. > :49:06.be very credible. But I think he lets himself down obviously with his
:49:06. > :49:10.temper. Do you think the public think this is the kind of speaker
:49:10. > :49:14.they want? I don't think the public view the speaker in one way or
:49:14. > :49:21.another, I think they look on Parliament as a bear pit of
:49:21. > :49:26.uncivilised, out-of-control, making noises to each other and are
:49:26. > :49:32.irrelevant to the lives and prosperity of ordinary people.
:49:32. > :49:35.the speaker trying to combat that? think Melanie is watching the odd
:49:35. > :49:40.big debate and prime ministers questions but most of the time it is
:49:40. > :49:49.perfectly civil and people debate in a civil way. You could have fooled
:49:49. > :49:52.It will be an unusual evening in Westminster tonight - not least
:49:53. > :49:56.because a large number of MPs will actually still be here on a Thursday
:49:56. > :50:00.night - but also because a number of Conservatives are having a barbecue
:50:00. > :50:03.with the Prime Minister at Number ten. Is it an end of term party? No,
:50:03. > :50:06.it's all a bit of a Tory Party bonding session ahead of a Private
:50:06. > :50:10.Members' Bill. James Wharton MP will bring his Europe Referendum Bill to
:50:10. > :50:13.the Commons on Friday, but why him? And why are Tories so keen on it?
:50:13. > :50:18.Giles has been following the action, and the MP from the start.
:50:18. > :50:23.Every year Parliament has a lottery. The backbench winner doesn't get
:50:23. > :50:25.money, but the prize is influence and a chance to change the law.
:50:26. > :50:34.Welcome to the world of Private Members Bills, and in a
:50:34. > :50:44.controversial twist, this year the draw was done in reverse order.
:50:44. > :50:59.
:50:59. > :51:03.but not least and the winner of the it was drawn, I was leaving my flat
:51:03. > :51:07.in London to go back to the constituency on expectation of
:51:07. > :51:11.anything exciting happening that day. I got a phone call from the BBC
:51:11. > :51:15.as it happens and be present at, congratulations, you have come top
:51:15. > :51:20.of the private member 's ballot. I won't repeat what I said but it made
:51:20. > :51:24.my feelings quite clear. I realised then, my phone began to ring off the
:51:24. > :51:30.hook. Because anyone topping the bill gets instantaneously offered
:51:30. > :51:33.advice on what to take on, whether they want it or not. A very busy
:51:33. > :51:42.morning of TV and radio interview started which only stopped about
:51:42. > :51:46.midday, when David Beckham announced he was retiring. But bend how you
:51:46. > :51:50.will, this year any Tory who won was going to be asked to take on one
:51:50. > :51:53.thing - a Europe referendum. Once you have, the next thing then is to
:51:53. > :51:55.find sponsors for your bill. There will be a list of sponsors and a
:51:55. > :52:00.good range of sponsors with some senior parliamentarians throwing
:52:00. > :52:04.their weight behind the bill. I hope that will be enough weight to
:52:04. > :52:08.support the Conservative party to take it through. I am grateful for
:52:08. > :52:15.what he says and I would urge all colleagues to come to vote for this
:52:15. > :52:18.bill. Be under no illusions this is the Conservative Party making PR
:52:18. > :52:21.trying to do a number of jobs to draw a clear line between themselves
:52:21. > :52:25.and the Lib Dems on Europe, and hoping to embarrass Labour into
:52:25. > :52:28.whether they would commit to a such a vote. The PM wanted to sponsor the
:52:28. > :52:31.vote but he can't. Any ministerial involvement would make it Government
:52:31. > :52:34.business. What's rather odd is that when the bill has it's first reading
:52:35. > :52:41.it's called a dummy bill. All we need to present is the dummy pill
:52:41. > :52:50.which shows the indication of what we want to bring forward. European
:52:50. > :52:56.Union referendum Bill. Friday the 5th of July, the whip was
:52:56. > :52:58.interfering a little. More on whips in a minute but meanwhile, one
:52:58. > :53:02.backbencher has been getting creative - she sees the Referendum
:53:02. > :53:06.Bill as a badge of honour. I have been making badges, I am one of the
:53:06. > :53:11.12 sponsors of the bill. This is something that we can deliver as
:53:11. > :53:20.backbenchers. If my e-mail inbox is anything to go by, it is certainly
:53:20. > :53:23.something that the British people want. It's a feeling that has
:53:23. > :53:26.galvanised Conservatives to get on board and it never hurts to get some
:53:26. > :53:28.last minute guidance from a former whip. I think work with everyone,
:53:28. > :53:32.don't just work with the usual suspects on both sides of the
:53:32. > :53:36.argument. Look beyond what is happening on Friday as well. Most
:53:37. > :53:41.people probably think it is done and dusted on Friday. In many ways, it
:53:41. > :53:47.is the start of the process. It will very much set the tone for how
:53:47. > :53:50.things go forward. I would personally avoid getting too many
:53:51. > :53:55.amendments, ones that look too supportive in later stages. You
:53:55. > :53:58.don't want to get this bill hijacked. I think it was a smart
:53:58. > :54:04.move not just accepting the bill as it was, picking sure it was your
:54:04. > :54:07.bill rather than just the government's bill. -- making sure.
:54:07. > :54:10.And there's one last ploy, given MPs have left Westminster by Friday.
:54:10. > :54:14.Have a party the night before to persuade colleagues to stay. Make
:54:14. > :54:19.sure people don't drink too much the night before because it could go
:54:19. > :54:23.very badly wrong the next morning. Drinking too much in Westminster?
:54:23. > :54:29.That will never happen. I'm now joined from Brussels by the
:54:29. > :54:32.Conservative MEP James Elles. You talk about, it is time to say enough
:54:32. > :54:39.is enough and that the remaining pro-Europeans in the Conservative
:54:39. > :54:45.party should stand up and be counted. How many of them are you?
:54:45. > :54:48.Judging by a poll in the open Europe a few days back, when it was asked
:54:48. > :54:53.how many people would like to vote in favour of the status crawl across
:54:53. > :55:02.the country, they said 37 in favour and 47 against. -- the status quo.
:55:02. > :55:05.When you look at the conservatives who make up the 47%, it said 39%
:55:05. > :55:10.would be Conservative supporting the status quo. I think there are many
:55:10. > :55:16.more conservative voters who would be happy to vote for remaining in
:55:16. > :55:22.the European Union without going into renegotiation or repatriations.
:55:22. > :55:29.What percentage of the Conservative Parliamentary party do you think
:55:29. > :55:33.have your views on Europe? I think very few, there are not that many in
:55:33. > :55:35.the European Parliament either but it does not stop the European
:55:35. > :55:41.parliamentarians saying what he believes in and what many of his
:55:41. > :55:46.people and supporters say to me, as they were last weekend. Are you a
:55:46. > :55:50.dying breed, a pro-European Conservative? I think it has been a
:55:50. > :55:55.bit like red squirrels being chased out of the woods by the grey
:55:55. > :55:59.squirrels. I think the red ones will come back because for time it will
:55:59. > :56:06.be appreciated. We have been through an extremely difficult economic
:56:06. > :56:10.situation. A lot have been able to make a lot of capital. If you look
:56:10. > :56:15.at the bitch and of where our country should be and with who we
:56:15. > :56:20.should be, I think ying in the European Union will still appeal to
:56:20. > :56:26.the majority of the British people -- I think being in the European
:56:26. > :56:35.Union. Is the Conservative party now explicitly Eurosceptic and James
:56:35. > :56:37.else is in extremely -- James Elles is in an extreme minority? I think
:56:37. > :56:42.it reflects a large proportion, probably the majority of
:56:42. > :56:50.Conservative voters. As for the public in general, it is a close
:56:50. > :56:53.call. I am baffled about this bill. What everyone thinks about the
:56:53. > :56:57.necessity or desirability of a referendum, as far as I understand
:56:57. > :57:01.it, this bill has minimal chance of getting through because the Lib Dems
:57:01. > :57:04.would be against it. Even if it did get through, legal advice is it will
:57:04. > :57:10.not buy into the next Parliament anyway. I am confused as to whether
:57:10. > :57:16.this is not anything more than a PR stunt -- will not bind the next
:57:16. > :57:24.Parliament. Would you vote for a referendum Bill, would you vote for
:57:24. > :57:28.repatriation of powers back to London? I would be in favour of a
:57:28. > :57:32.referendum because I think it has been shown in Ireland and Denmark,
:57:32. > :57:36.where they have had similar anti-European movements, they have
:57:36. > :57:43.had votes at every stage of the changes in the treaties. Euro
:57:43. > :57:46.scepticism is less in both of those countries, so we need a referendum.
:57:46. > :57:52.The Irish were forced to have the referendum again because it does not
:57:52. > :57:55.suit Brussels. Nothing is normal in Ireland, you would probably say. If
:57:55. > :58:04.you look at our case, we need and in out referendum. I would be happier
:58:04. > :58:06.to have that attached to the changes in the treaties. When there is a
:58:06. > :58:11.significant change in the constitutional management of our
:58:11. > :58:15.country. We had it in 1995 and because we haven't had it since
:58:15. > :58:20.then, whatever government has been in power, there has been an enormous
:58:20. > :58:26.amount of frustration and people want their say. Will you stand for
:58:26. > :58:30.election again next? I won't be, but I would like to touch on something
:58:30. > :58:35.millennium has said, the nature of this debate. If it were -- Melanie
:58:35. > :58:39.has said. If it were the referendum would cure our economic ills, that
:58:39. > :58:42.would be an important issue. But if you look at the problems we have in
:58:42. > :58:46.infrastructure investment or the way many factoring industry has
:58:46. > :58:49.disappeared, these are not things which are European questions.
:58:49. > :58:52.have to stop there, thank you for joining us.
:58:53. > :58:56.That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The One O'clock News is