:00:36. > :00:41.Good afternoon, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.Labour and the unions trade blows. Is the report on an alleged union
:00:44. > :00:51.stitch-up in the selection of an MP another union stitch-up?
:00:51. > :00:53.Hague couldn't persuade his MPs, but can the US Secretary of State
:00:53. > :00:59.visiting London today persuade congressmen to back military action
:00:59. > :01:03.against Syria? MPs prepare to grill BBC bosses. Who
:01:03. > :01:06.was it who authorised hundreds of thousands of pounds of licence fee
:01:06. > :01:11.payers' money to be paid to departing colleagues?
:01:12. > :01:19.And the queen of the party conference comedy circuit hangs up
:01:19. > :01:24.her boots. It is a well-known truth that every
:01:24. > :01:31.Lib Dem activist fancies himself in sequins!
:01:31. > :01:36.Yes, the mind boggles! All that in the next hour.
:01:36. > :01:39.With us for the first half of the programme today is Shadow Health
:01:39. > :01:42.Minister and Labour MP Diane Abbott. Let's start with Chris Huhne. The
:01:42. > :01:45.disgraced former Cabinet Minister has today claimed that the media
:01:45. > :01:48.coverage which led to his downfall was what he described as "payback"
:01:48. > :01:52.for his support for investigations into hacking by Rupert Murdoch's
:01:52. > :01:55.News International. Mr Huhne lost his political career and his liberty
:01:55. > :01:58.over his speeding conviction, a story that was uncovered by the
:01:58. > :02:04.Sunday Times, a paper owned by News International. Mr Huhne told the
:02:04. > :02:12.Today programme this morning that, at one time, he was being was tailed
:02:12. > :02:18.by a full-time investigator. All I am pointing out is that the
:02:18. > :02:24.way in which this was specifically done, was a very clear payback for
:02:24. > :02:30.the fact that I had been a former journalist. I wasn't able to resist
:02:30. > :02:34.going public on how the police should reopen the investigation into
:02:34. > :02:39.voice Male hacking and the Murdoch press.
:02:39. > :02:43.Your thoughts? My thought is politicians complaining about the
:02:43. > :02:48.media is like ducks complaining about the weather. I feel very sorry
:02:48. > :02:53.for his family particularly the children who got caught up in it.
:02:53. > :02:59.What I would recommend to Chris Huhne is a John Profumo system,
:02:59. > :03:06.quiet, good works, in long period of reflection.
:03:06. > :03:13.He is not taking your advice. Is that because he is, somehow, trying
:03:13. > :03:18.to brazen it out, if you like? He is certainly not taking good advice.
:03:18. > :03:22.It worked for John Profumo, it will work for him. Years of silence.
:03:22. > :03:27.It worked for John Profumo, it will Did News International have an
:03:27. > :03:34.agenda? You know, is the Pope a Catholic? Of course they have an
:03:34. > :03:40.agenda. Complaining about that as a politician... You get on with it.
:03:41. > :03:45.He says rather than cheap skating on the proposed investigation on
:03:45. > :03:48.hacking my phone, the News of the world put me under extensive
:03:48. > :03:53.surveillance by a retired policeman. Is this someone tried to
:03:54. > :03:59.fight his way back into politics? The truth is he did break the law,
:03:59. > :04:04.that's why he went to prison. Rupert Murdoch is a separate issue.
:04:04. > :04:07.Now it's time for our daily quiz. A report from Yale University today
:04:07. > :04:11.suggests that politics can impair performance, but what does it make
:04:11. > :04:18.you bad at? Is it: a) Relationships. B) Maths.
:04:18. > :04:22.C) Grammar. Or d) Sports? At the end of the show we will give
:04:22. > :04:26.you the correct answer. Now, a war of words has broken out
:04:26. > :04:28.between union bosses currently gathered in Bournemouth for the TUC
:04:28. > :04:31.conference, and the Labour leadership over Mr Miliband's
:04:31. > :04:33.proposed changes to Labour Party funding. The Labour leader wants to
:04:34. > :04:38.end the automatic affiliation of union members to the party. Members
:04:38. > :04:45.would, instead, have to opt in to Labour, a policy change that could
:04:45. > :04:48.cost the party millions. The changes were announced in the wake of the
:04:48. > :04:53.controversy over the selection of Labour's candidate in Falkirk. The
:04:53. > :04:56.Unite trade union was alleged to have packed local membership lists
:04:56. > :04:59.with Unite members who were unaware they were joining Labour, in a bid
:04:59. > :05:04.to get their candidate Karie Murphy selected. Ed Miliband suspended two
:05:04. > :05:09.party members, including Karie Murphy, and put the Falkirk party in
:05:09. > :05:14.special measures. And, in a speech, he castigated Unite and the Falkirk
:05:14. > :05:20.saga, calling it: "Politics of the machine. A politics that is rightly
:05:20. > :05:22.hated. What we saw in Falkirk is part of the death-throes of the old
:05:22. > :05:25.politics." But then, on Friday evening, Labour
:05:25. > :05:30.announced the two suspended Falkirk members would be reinstated, as they
:05:30. > :05:33.were "not guilty of any wrongdoing". And Karie Murphy announced she was
:05:33. > :05:42.withdrawing her nomination for the Falkirk seat.
:05:42. > :05:45.Labour also said, "Key evidence has been withdrawn". The current Labour
:05:45. > :06:36.MP for Falkirk, Eric Joyce, has said the key witnesses were "prevailed
:06:36. > :06:41.upon" to withdraw their statements. They may be keen to move on, and
:06:41. > :06:46.they were criticised by Ed Miliband, he said there were serious
:06:46. > :06:53.issues, labour besmirched by the behaviour of if you individuals. It
:06:53. > :06:56.is wrong, the practices would not have Len McCluskey defending this
:06:56. > :07:01.kind of machine politics. He made a big deal about this. Now we find
:07:01. > :07:06.that evidence has been withdrawn and the report will not be published.
:07:06. > :07:11.Should it be? Len McCluskey has said he is happy
:07:11. > :07:15.he wants to move on and work with the Labour Party. This is a
:07:16. > :07:19.Westminster story, ordinary people in Hackney are not talking about
:07:19. > :07:25.this. Ed Miliband make a begin of it. He
:07:26. > :07:31.launched his reform of the relationship between Labour and the
:07:31. > :07:36.unions on this. The people around Ed Miliband feel
:07:36. > :07:42.under pressure. They are determined to prove he is not a puppet. He is
:07:42. > :07:45.not, that is a fact. That was then, this is now.
:07:45. > :07:50.So was it a mistake by Ed Miliband to go in as hard as he did, over
:07:50. > :07:52.what he alleges what happened in Falkirk?
:07:52. > :07:57.We are all going to move on. You Falkirk?
:07:57. > :08:01.keep saying that but can you move on when there has been an
:08:01. > :08:05.investigation, a report that has now not been published, when that
:08:05. > :08:10.investigation has found the two suspended individuals have now been
:08:10. > :08:14.proven innocent? We can move on. George Osborne is
:08:14. > :08:20.boasting how well the economy is doing, but my stitch whence are
:08:20. > :08:24.under the cosh in terms of living standards. This was a Westminster
:08:24. > :08:31.bubble story. It was not, this was Ed Miliband,
:08:31. > :08:35.his platform from which he launched his big reform of the relationship
:08:36. > :08:40.with the unions. If Len McCluskey is ready to move
:08:41. > :08:45.on, surely the media should be. Is Ed Miliband happy with the
:08:45. > :08:49.conclusions, does he not need to demand that report is published?
:08:49. > :08:56.Otherwise we can't make a judgement. He must want to address the big
:08:56. > :09:01.issues, living standards, zero hours contracts.
:09:01. > :09:08.Tom Watson has said those comments about unite should be retracted from
:09:09. > :09:13.Jim Murphy. But no one will move on until this
:09:13. > :09:19.squabbling in Labour, until some things are sorted out.
:09:19. > :09:25.Should Jim Murphy beat apologising? There are far bigger issues, Syria,
:09:25. > :09:30.living standards, what's really happening to ordinary people. We
:09:30. > :09:36.have to move on. What do you say to the two people
:09:36. > :09:41.who were suspended? Karie Murphy has agreed to stand down for the best
:09:41. > :09:49.interests of the party. If someone apologised, that would
:09:49. > :09:55.draw a line underneath it? I am not supporting those calls.
:09:55. > :09:57.When asked about what was in the original report, he said this
:09:57. > :10:01.enquiry says people were being signed up to the party without their
:10:01. > :10:06.knowledge. He says people were being asked to sign up to the Labour Party
:10:06. > :10:10.on condition they supported certain candidates, that is why we have
:10:10. > :10:16.suspended to individuals. On Friday, it was announced no rules
:10:16. > :10:20.were broken. He was from. You need to ask Ed Miliband about
:10:20. > :10:26.that. Somebody was wrong here. Either the witnesses and their
:10:26. > :10:30.account wasn't correct and there was a problem with evidence, which would
:10:30. > :10:35.be very serious. Or they were telling the truth but have been
:10:35. > :10:40.persuaded to withdraw evidence. What other explanation could there be?
:10:40. > :10:42.There is no conspiracy here. You would have been persuaded to
:10:42. > :10:43.withdraw evidence. What other explanation could there be? There is
:10:43. > :10:46.withdraw evidence. What other no conspiracy here. You how to ask
:10:46. > :10:52.Ed Miliband. As I understand, Unite did nothing in Falkirk that other
:10:52. > :10:59.organisations weren't doing. So Ed Miliband was wrong to pursue it? Ed
:10:59. > :11:06.Miliband is never wrong. It can't be that the unions weren't doing
:11:06. > :11:12.anything wrong, and that Ed Miliband... You must ask him, maybe
:11:12. > :11:17.there was a misunderstanding. Are you embarrassed? Nope.Why don't you
:11:17. > :11:22.want to talk about it? People have other things they want to talk
:11:22. > :11:28.about. There is an element of truth and element of trust. There is and
:11:28. > :11:33.Ed Miliband and the trade unions are committed to modernising the way the
:11:33. > :11:37.unions relate to Labour. Going well so far? You will see by the end of
:11:37. > :11:38.the week. So, tomorrow, Ed Miliband addresses
:11:38. > :11:40.the TUC conference in Bournemouth, So, tomorrow, Ed Miliband addresses
:11:40. > :11:44.determined, apparently, to reform the link with the unions. But just
:11:44. > :11:58.how money does Labour risk losing in these changes? Here's David.
:11:58. > :12:02.I do not promise easy time. That was before he decided to reform their
:12:02. > :12:07.links with the unions. They may be comrades but they are not always
:12:07. > :12:11.friends. Ed Miliband may have won the leadership on the back of union
:12:11. > :12:15.votes but it is clear he wants to reform the relationship between the
:12:15. > :12:20.party and its biggest paymasters. What is not clear is the
:12:20. > :12:25.consequences of that decision. A new beginning or the beginning of the
:12:25. > :12:30.end? The consequences could be drastic. I am on record saying this
:12:30. > :12:39.could be the gamble of the century, a political gamble. It could force
:12:39. > :12:44.the financial meltdown of the Labour Party as it stands.
:12:44. > :12:48.Here is why he is talking in such apocalyptic terms. Union members
:12:48. > :12:53.have to watch out if they want to avoid paying an affiliation fee to
:12:53. > :12:58.Labour. Last year, those fees raised £8 million, a quarter of its total
:12:58. > :13:05.income. Under the reforms, members would have to opt in which could
:13:05. > :13:09.cost dear. Last week, the GMB said its affiliation fees would drop by
:13:09. > :13:16.£1 million to reflect the move. Unite reckons the party would lose
:13:16. > :13:19.£3 million from its members. Big numbers but not enough to deter
:13:19. > :13:22.those who crave reform. If you worry about something that needs to be
:13:22. > :13:26.tackled as a matter of principle because you might lose some money,
:13:26. > :13:31.you are looking at this from the wrong end. This is about a new type
:13:31. > :13:36.of politics, after the expenses scandal, this is about a new
:13:36. > :13:42.settlement. Ed Miliband's strength is he understands a need for a new
:13:42. > :13:45.settlement. But that is the kind of armaments which antagonises people
:13:45. > :13:51.within the union movement. The money the party is means -- receiving from
:13:51. > :13:55.the union movement is the most transparent money in politics.
:13:55. > :13:59.People have a right to be insulted by that. While the proposals might
:13:59. > :14:05.hit affiliation fees, the unions could still donate. So things as
:14:05. > :14:12.drastic as they seem? I would find it amazing, and many
:14:12. > :14:19.unions are not affiliated, but they know their ambitions, their view of
:14:19. > :14:23.life, it is very similar to the Labour Party. So I would be very
:14:23. > :14:29.surprised if they did not contribute to those objectives.
:14:29. > :14:34.TUC General Secretary Frances O'Grady joins us now live from
:14:34. > :14:42.Bournemouth. Welcome.
:14:42. > :14:47.You said earlier today, union money is the cleanest cash in politics.
:14:47. > :14:53.Would it be more less keen if individual had two. -- had to opt
:14:53. > :14:59.in? That is a matter for the Labour
:14:59. > :15:03.Party. What do you think? The real dirt in politics hasn't been
:15:03. > :15:09.tackled. People are far more worried about the grip that people in the
:15:09. > :15:13.City have over politics, half of donations to the Conservative party
:15:13. > :15:30.come from the City, than freely given from nurses, train drivers.
:15:30. > :15:41.Ed Miliband has already made it clear the direction he wants to
:15:41. > :15:45.take... What do you think?The TUC is not affiliated to the Labour
:15:45. > :15:50.Party and most of our unions are not affiliated to the Labour Party but
:15:50. > :15:55.we do share concern that we want an agenda for decent jobs, fair pay and
:15:55. > :16:02.a fair share of the rewards as and when economic recovery comes. What
:16:02. > :16:07.do you say when Ed Miliband will say, we need to build a party truly
:16:07. > :16:11.rooted in the lives of all the working people in Britain once
:16:11. > :16:16.more. What does that say about the efforts of the trade unions to do
:16:16. > :16:21.the same? We represent 6 million people. I think we do a good job of
:16:22. > :16:27.it. I don't think we would be talking about zero hours contracts,
:16:27. > :16:32.the need for living wage and unfair pay if it wasn't for the trade union
:16:32. > :16:36.movement and I am proud for that. Voters want a real agenda for a
:16:36. > :16:42.fairer Britain and some answers about how we are going to get there.
:16:42. > :16:46.There is also an opinion poll that shows the majority of unions are
:16:46. > :16:50.backing Ed Miliband's plans to reform the relationship with the
:16:50. > :16:57.unions and how they are funding Labour. A lot of union leaders have
:16:57. > :17:00.already been clear about that. Len McCluskey has welcomed the
:17:00. > :17:06.initiative to modernise and reform the link for the 21st-century. This
:17:06. > :17:11.has happened over the Labour Party's entire history. There is
:17:11. > :17:15.nothing new about that. Its rules are not written in stone, it is a
:17:16. > :17:24.broad church and they will change with the time. Do you support... 100
:17:24. > :17:28.relieved hands of Labour Party funding? That is a matter for the
:17:28. > :17:32.GMB but the real issue that ordinary working people are talking about is
:17:32. > :17:37.how to get that 1 working people are talking about is
:17:37. > :17:43.people back to work, not any job but a decent job, how do we get fair
:17:43. > :17:47.pay, and that when we do get a recovery it doesn't all go into
:17:47. > :17:57.bumper bonuses in the city of but into people 's pay packets. -- in
:17:57. > :18:03.the City but into people's pay packets. 86% of members of Unite
:18:03. > :18:09.believe it is right to introduce a packets. 86% of members of Unite
:18:09. > :18:14.cap on benefits but that is not the position of the unions. Our concern
:18:14. > :18:17.about the benefit cap is that the majority of the benefits go to low
:18:17. > :18:25.paid workers in work, who are dependent on tax credits to get by
:18:26. > :18:32.when instead, and this is a key point, we should tackle the root
:18:32. > :18:38.cause of low pay. I want those employers in those industries that
:18:38. > :18:43.can afford to pay a fair wage and offer fair working conditions should
:18:43. > :18:48.do so. We need employers and unions to get around the table, supported
:18:49. > :18:53.by government, to get that right. Ordinary families have lost £30 a
:18:53. > :18:58.week on average out of their pay back its troop cuts in real pace
:18:58. > :19:05.since the financial crash that they did nothing to cause -- out of their
:19:05. > :19:09.pay packets through cuts. Meanwhile top pay has gone through the roof.
:19:09. > :19:14.People have a real appetite for fairness and politicians of all
:19:14. > :19:16.political parties need to start listening. Except one could argue
:19:16. > :19:20.you are not representing working listening. Except one could argue
:19:20. > :19:24.people on the issue of welfare and the benefit cap because the majority
:19:24. > :19:30.of Unite members support the benefit cap and you don't. I think if you
:19:30. > :19:37.ask trade union members, do they want to see fair pay and employers
:19:37. > :19:43.stopping offering zero hours contracts, you will get a very clear
:19:43. > :19:48.answer. That workers should not have to rely on state hand-outs when
:19:48. > :19:54.employers can afford to pay more. That is the way to get the deficit
:19:54. > :19:59.down. The same goes for the housing benefit bill. Frances O'Grady in
:20:00. > :20:04.Bournemouth, thank you very much. Last time you were on the programme
:20:04. > :20:08.we asked you about angry comments from trade union general secretaries
:20:08. > :20:14.and you laugh them off and said they did not mean what they said. Now
:20:14. > :20:18.they have taken action. The GMB has withdrawn £1 million of funding to
:20:18. > :20:23.the Labour Party. They are withdrawn £1 million of funding to
:20:23. > :20:29.their money where their mouth is. The leadership of the major trade
:20:29. > :20:34.unions, Len McCluskey, Paul Kenny, very strongly support the Labour
:20:34. > :20:40.Party. Their problem is that on this issue they are a little to the right
:20:40. > :20:44.than their activists but in all the unions there are a very large amount
:20:44. > :20:52.of members who do not support the party. Dave Prentice did not sound
:20:52. > :20:56.supportive to Labour. He has been a solid supporter to successive Labour
:20:56. > :21:05.leaders. Trade union money is a matter for them but I do not believe
:21:05. > :21:12.Ed Miliband... You think they will reverse the decision to cut the
:21:12. > :21:18.money to the Labour Party? I am not saying that, no. It is like a family
:21:18. > :21:23.quarrel but at the end of the day the unions will not see the Labour
:21:23. > :21:29.Party destitute. That, I believe. But it is a natural conclusion to
:21:29. > :21:36.what the Labour Party is proposing, so how will the party afford to run
:21:36. > :21:42.the next election? No doubt the people around Ed Miliband have
:21:42. > :21:47.factored that in. Do you talk to Ed Miliband much about these issues,
:21:47. > :21:53.like Falkirk? You are a frontbencher, it sounds like you do
:21:53. > :21:59.not have any discussions with him? I am very humble on the front bench.
:21:59. > :22:04.So are you not in his inner circle? I am a very humble frontbencher.
:22:04. > :22:09.Will I am seeing is the trade unions will not see the Labour Party
:22:09. > :22:18.destitute. -- all that I am saying. You said Ed Miliband had a mission
:22:18. > :22:27.to detoxify the label Red Ed. I did not say that. The talk in the
:22:27. > :22:33.newspapers is nonsense, that he is Red Ed. But not that the union
:22:33. > :22:35.supported him and that is how he won. The unions voted for
:22:35. > :22:41.supported him and that is how he because they wanted to block David
:22:41. > :22:45.at all costs, that is what that was about. Thank you. Don't go away.
:22:45. > :22:49.It is set to be a tough week for Barack Obama who is trying to
:22:49. > :22:53.convince the US Congress and Senate to support military strikes in
:22:53. > :22:56.Syria. On this side of the Atlantic, this morning the American Secretary
:22:56. > :22:59.of State John Kerry and William Hague have discussed Syria, with
:22:59. > :23:02.William Hague insisting Britain and America are closely aligned. A
:23:02. > :23:05.little earlier John Kerry explained why there should be support for
:23:05. > :23:10.action against the Assad government. I think it would be good to hear
:23:10. > :23:13.people saying to a dictator, keep your hands off chemical weapons that
:23:13. > :23:22.kill your own people. Protect your own people. I think it's important
:23:22. > :23:30.for us to stand up as nations for civility and against actions that
:23:30. > :23:32.challenge notions of humanity and decency and appropriate
:23:32. > :23:39.international behaviour for almost 100 years. The world has stood
:23:39. > :23:43.together against the use of chemical weapons and we need to hear an
:23:43. > :23:47.appropriate outcry as we think back on those moments of history when
:23:47. > :23:56.large numbers of people have been killed because the world was silent.
:23:56. > :24:04.We have our special correspondent in New York. Andrew. Welcome!
:24:04. > :24:09.Good afternoon on a beautiful New York morning.
:24:09. > :24:15.One does wonder why, when Great Britain is going to be joining
:24:15. > :24:20.forces with America, John Kerry was standing shoulder to shoulder with
:24:20. > :24:25.William Hague. This will make no influence, it is
:24:26. > :24:29.not even being watched over here. If This will make no influence, it is
:24:29. > :24:34.the vote was held in Congress today, the president would lose. He
:24:34. > :24:42.might squeak through in the Senate, although I am not sure of that. He
:24:42. > :24:47.would certainly lose in the House. 227 members of them have already
:24:47. > :24:53.said they would be against a strike and you only need 217 for a
:24:53. > :24:57.majority, so if it was today, it would go the way of David Cameron in
:24:57. > :25:02.the House of Commons. How much has he got to do to
:25:02. > :25:05.persuade enough people to make the certain of success?
:25:05. > :25:11.He is not certain of success and he has a mountain to climb. He is
:25:11. > :25:16.giving interviews to six networks today, which will all appear on
:25:16. > :25:20.prime time tonight. He is addressing the nation from the Oval Office
:25:20. > :25:25.tomorrow life and there is a massive lobbying campaign going on in
:25:25. > :25:32.Congress. That is a powerful business. The president is up
:25:32. > :25:35.against a more powerful machine, public opinion. Senators and
:25:35. > :25:40.congressmen are coming back from their constituencies over the
:25:40. > :25:45.weekend reporting huge public opposition to any kind of strike
:25:45. > :25:51.against Syria. One Congressman's said to me, to say 99% of my people
:25:51. > :26:00.are against it is to overestimate the support for it. Those that have
:26:00. > :26:08.electoral ambitions are against it, like the senior senator, Democrat,
:26:08. > :26:15.for Arkansas. It will be very hard indeed. At the moment the president
:26:15. > :26:20.is staring defeat in the face. What will that mean for his
:26:20. > :26:26.presidency? For him, politically? The stakes are high.
:26:26. > :26:30.It will be devastating for the president if he loses because it
:26:30. > :26:32.will show that he has not got the power to get his way in Congress
:26:32. > :26:38.when it comes to major issues power to get his way in Congress
:26:39. > :26:42.foreign policy and indeed, the elephant in the room is not Syria.
:26:42. > :26:46.The strongest briefing we are getting from the administration is
:26:46. > :26:54.that if the Americans do not agree to a strike against the 9/11
:26:54. > :26:58.regime, by the way Assad has appeared on American network
:26:58. > :27:04.television this morning reminding Americans of the difficulty of their
:27:04. > :27:08.past experiences in the Middle East, but the line is that if the White
:27:08. > :27:13.House does not respond to the chemical attacks in Syria, the
:27:13. > :27:18.Iranians will not believe any threats they make against them. If
:27:18. > :27:24.he loses this, my feeling is we will have a lame duck president for the
:27:24. > :27:28.rest of his tenure. Second terms are always very difficult for American
:27:28. > :27:34.presidents, they do not have pulling power to bring people along. If he
:27:34. > :27:38.loses this vote in Congress, he will be even more of a lame duck
:27:38. > :27:40.president. What about the timetable of these
:27:40. > :27:45.events? What about the timetable of these
:27:45. > :27:49.We are beginning to get procedural motions this week and there could be
:27:49. > :27:55.a substantial vote on Friday but I do not think the House, and he needs
:27:55. > :28:00.to win in both the House and the Senate, I do not think they will
:28:00. > :28:07.come until sometime next week and these long delays, he let Congress
:28:07. > :28:14.comeback after those summer holiday in the natural way, delaying any
:28:14. > :28:19.possible attack, it is like he has done a save the date card to Assad
:28:19. > :28:23.saying, I will get to you in September. The fact there is this
:28:24. > :28:28.delay also means that many in Congress to not think the president
:28:28. > :28:33.is really serious about this and they are not going to go along with
:28:33. > :28:37.it. Presumably if Congress does not
:28:37. > :28:42.support this, even though he could go ahead with military action as
:28:42. > :28:47.commander in chief, he wouldn't. It is inconceivable if he loses the
:28:47. > :28:53.vote in Congress that he would proceed with military action. He
:28:53. > :28:57.will not say so in public but White House aides are sailing Congress
:28:57. > :29:03.will have to vote and if it doesn't, there will not be a strike -- are
:29:03. > :29:09.saying. I will bring you back a present if
:29:09. > :29:15.you get Diane Abbott to answer a question.
:29:15. > :29:23.It is a deal! Answer the questions or I do not get the present! It
:29:23. > :29:28.looks now as if any military response is hanging in the balance.
:29:28. > :29:33.You must be pleased but listening to John Kerry, it will leave the Assad
:29:33. > :29:40.regime unpunished. I will not comment on American policy but I
:29:40. > :29:45.will say this. Bombing Syria would almost certainly make things worse
:29:45. > :29:49.and it would suck us into a Syrian Civil War and that is why the
:29:49. > :29:54.majority of the British public and the American public are against it
:29:54. > :29:57.and that is why it would be very unwise to bring the issue back to
:29:57. > :30:01.the House of Commons for a second vote. You think it would be a
:30:01. > :30:04.mistake. Cameron must think so as vote. You think it would be a
:30:04. > :30:13.well otherwise he would not have been so emphatic. Even more of his
:30:13. > :30:21.own MPs will vote against the first time and that would be a
:30:21. > :30:25.humiliation. Let me try again, is Ed Miliband minded, if circumstances
:30:25. > :30:30.change dramatically, William Hague there said there was a possibility,
:30:30. > :30:51.that a second vote could be had in the Commons? Would let Ed Miliband
:30:51. > :31:02.support it? Really, there has to be a United Nations resolution. If
:31:02. > :31:08.Congress... Would that not be enough?
:31:09. > :31:14.If there is a UN resolution, of course we would support it. But
:31:14. > :31:18.failing that, and a great many of us believe that to get involved in
:31:18. > :31:21.bombing Syria and getting sucked into a civil war would be a big
:31:22. > :31:26.mistake. If David Cameron manages to get Ed
:31:26. > :31:28.Miliband on board, would you be on board?
:31:28. > :31:36.Not unless there is a UN resolution. The BBC Director-General Tony Hall
:31:36. > :31:40.sent an email to all staff this morning saying today's going to be a
:31:40. > :31:45."tough one" for the corporation. Yes, another one.
:31:45. > :31:48.This afternoon, no fewer than seven former and current BBC bigwigs will
:31:48. > :31:51.appear before the Public Accounts Committee in the Commons. And all
:31:51. > :31:55.eyes will be on former Director General Mark Thompson and BBC Trust
:31:55. > :31:57.Chairman Chris Patten, who have been trading public blows over who knew
:31:57. > :32:03.what about controversial severance packages for departing executives.
:32:03. > :32:07.Mark Thompson says the trust knew about the hundreds of thousands
:32:07. > :32:12.being paid out. But here's what Chris Patten told the committee back
:32:12. > :32:20.in July. For us, we asked for this report
:32:21. > :32:25.because we were concerned about the overall size of severance payments,
:32:25. > :32:30.and wanted to see if we could reduce them, albeit the fact that they were
:32:30. > :32:35.contractual, it was a question of shock and dismay for us to discover
:32:35. > :32:37.how many had been beyond contractual, and even higher than
:32:37. > :32:44.they needed to be. Where they can seek -- exceeded
:32:44. > :32:45.contractual obligations, should the trust have known?
:32:45. > :33:03.Yes. And if you recall, The Conservative MP Chris
:33:03. > :33:05.Heaton-Harris is a member of the Public Accounts Committee, and will
:33:05. > :33:11.be questioning BBC bosses this afternoon. He joins us now.
:33:11. > :33:15.It is unusual to speak to all of the witnesses simultaneously, if you
:33:15. > :33:19.like, why? Because they are contradicting each
:33:19. > :33:23.other, so it is easier to whittle out a tiny bit of the truth by
:33:23. > :33:27.having them all answer each other's questions. It will be an interesting
:33:27. > :33:30.dynamic, there is no love lost between certain members of the
:33:30. > :33:35.panel. Chris Patten has said he hopes it
:33:35. > :33:40.will be reasonably dignified, what are the chances of that? It should
:33:40. > :33:44.be. Everything we do is reasonably
:33:44. > :33:47.dignified. What the panel does to each other, who knows?
:33:47. > :33:52.Did you have problems persuading them to appear alongside each other?
:33:52. > :33:56.It was relatively smooth in sorting out the logistics.
:33:56. > :34:02.What do you want to hear from Mark Thompson today?
:34:02. > :34:07.We want to hear from the trust and Mark Thompson what actually happened
:34:08. > :34:11.with these very big payoffs. We have conflicting versions.
:34:11. > :34:18.We want to find out the truth, the committee has not had access to BBC
:34:18. > :34:22.accounts before 2010. Every time we have scratched the surface,
:34:22. > :34:26.especially at the top, this is about the top echelons of the BBC and
:34:26. > :34:32.nothing to do with the general rank and file of staff. At the top, there
:34:32. > :34:36.are definite issues about how public money has been spent.
:34:36. > :34:40.Rob Wilson said if it turns out the trust approved excessive payments it
:34:40. > :34:44.is not tenable for Chris Patten to continue. Do you agree? It depends
:34:44. > :34:49.if he knew about them. There is a scenario that Mark
:34:49. > :34:55.Thompson and Chris Patten are telling the truth.
:34:55. > :35:00.Mark Thompson has evidence he claims that the trust, including Chris
:35:00. > :35:04.Patten, did know about the payments being made. He might have sent an
:35:04. > :35:09.e-mail to Chris Patten or the trust office which could have been generic
:35:09. > :35:13.and not specifying detail. That is something we are going to
:35:13. > :35:16.ask this afternoon. You're not expecting a definitive
:35:16. > :35:20.answer if you are conceding actually both could be right.
:35:20. > :35:22.I have just given you a scenario where this could possibly be that
:35:22. > :35:27.both of them are telling pretty much where this could possibly be that
:35:27. > :35:31.the truth. Are you hoping to get to the bottom of it?
:35:31. > :35:36.I am expecting so. The chairman Margaret Hodge is very good at that
:35:36. > :35:39.sort of thing. There are MPs on the committee who are very good in
:35:39. > :35:44.visitors. Lucy Adams has already admitted
:35:44. > :35:48.misleading the committee over an e-mail that she didn't seem to
:35:48. > :35:53.remember at the time, but then admitted she took part in drafting
:35:53. > :35:59.it. Is there a punishment for that? She has said she will leave the BBC,
:35:59. > :36:04.it might speed that up. It depends on what Tony Hall thinks about this.
:36:04. > :36:09.A man who has come in to do a job, not expecting it to be such a choppy
:36:09. > :36:17.ride as he has had since coming into post. I think he was quite reliant
:36:17. > :36:21.on Lucy Adams doing this. Losing that key member of staff in that H R
:36:21. > :36:26.position and then finding the evidence she gave to the committee
:36:26. > :36:31.was whether a deliberate untruth or a mistake, incorrect, must be very
:36:31. > :36:35.disappointing. Is there a punishment for misleading
:36:35. > :36:39.disappointing. the committee? There is but I don't
:36:39. > :36:43.think we will be giving her a public dressing down.
:36:43. > :36:46.Should she go early though? Do you as a committee member think she
:36:46. > :36:51.should? Personally, I think she should, yes.
:36:51. > :37:02.What do you think? I think it is an internal BBC
:37:02. > :37:04.matter. We know that 99% of you are not getting millions of pounds. She
:37:04. > :37:10.matter. We know that 99% of you are says, bitterly!
:37:10. > :37:15.What has this done to public trust in the corporation? I don't think it
:37:15. > :37:19.helps. It gives the impression that everyone in the corporation is
:37:19. > :37:25.overpaid. The issue is important, the infighting is not edifying.
:37:25. > :37:30.But the issue itself is important, if there were over payments that
:37:30. > :37:34.were not contractually necessary. If this was a private sector company
:37:34. > :37:40.it would clearly be what they wanted to do. But the BBC, it gets
:37:40. > :37:47.attention from scrutineers, like Chris. As I say, it is sad, it
:37:47. > :37:49.reflects poorly on what is actually a great institution.
:37:49. > :37:54.There are suggestions the trust could be abolished. It will set up
:37:54. > :38:01.under Labour. Should the regulator be Ofcom?
:38:01. > :38:06.I think we are moving towards that. You do. I think so.
:38:06. > :38:09.They keep the organising and changing but it doesn't seem to
:38:09. > :38:14.work. What about you?
:38:14. > :38:20.I am not sure. The National audit report stresses there are government
:38:20. > :38:26.issues at trust level. And, unfortunately, for the BBC as a
:38:26. > :38:32.whole, the BBC Trust has maybe done some inaccurate and bad things, and
:38:32. > :38:39.now the BBC gets a public bashing for it. That is slightly unfair.
:38:39. > :38:40.But, this is the way we work in media, you get plenty of attention
:38:40. > :38:45.when something bad happens and not media, you get plenty of attention
:38:45. > :38:54.so much attention otherwise. Whoever it is, Ofcom, there will be
:38:54. > :38:59.politicians who find something to criticise.
:38:59. > :39:05.So, time now to look at what's on the political agenda this week, and
:39:05. > :39:08.it's shaping up to be a busy one. Tomorrow, Labour leader Ed Miliband
:39:08. > :39:10.faces a key test of his leadership, addressing union leaders at the TUC
:39:10. > :39:13.conference in Bournemouth. On Wednesday, Parliament's Public
:39:13. > :39:16.Accounts Committee holds a hearing on the Iain Duncan Smith's troubled
:39:16. > :39:19.Universal Credit plans for benefits. This follows last week's criticism
:39:19. > :39:23.of the system by the National Audit Office.
:39:23. > :39:26.On Thursday, the Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, gives
:39:26. > :39:30.evidence to the Treasury Select Committee on the August quarterly
:39:30. > :39:36.inflation report. And party conference season begins this week.
:39:36. > :39:41.The Greens are in Brighton on Friday. And this weekend, the Lib
:39:41. > :39:44.Dems gather in Glasgow. We're joined from College Green by
:39:44. > :39:48.Pippa Crerar of the London Evening Standard, and the Daily Mail's
:39:48. > :39:53.Andrew Pierce. No doubt really looking forward to
:39:53. > :39:58.the conference season. Pepper, is Ed Miliband doing the right thing in
:39:58. > :40:02.terms of reforming the relationship with the unions?
:40:02. > :40:06.He may well be but there's not much he can do about it because there is
:40:06. > :40:11.no going back. Having made such a big deal about reforming the link
:40:11. > :40:16.with the unions, he has two see it through. Can you imagine if he said
:40:16. > :40:21.he made a mistake? It would send a message of weakness within the party
:40:21. > :40:26.and to the unions. The bottom line is the majority want to see the link
:40:26. > :40:34.performed. Ed Miliband, having had the union support, has always been
:40:34. > :40:39.seen as being in thrall to them. So it is important to show that he is
:40:39. > :40:44.able to create some degree of separation, and modernise the
:40:45. > :40:49.relationship. That is not to say not to have a strong link but to make
:40:49. > :40:55.sure it is not seem as if they have an overbearing influence on policy.
:40:55. > :41:01.This row was a gift for the Conservatives.
:41:01. > :41:08.The majority of trade union members are backing Ed Miliband. Could he
:41:08. > :41:13.come out of this stronger? Only if he wins. If he doesn't, he
:41:13. > :41:20.will look like a lame duck Labour leader. This is a futile scrap with
:41:20. > :41:25.the unions. A knee jerk response to Falkirk. He overreacted, telling us
:41:25. > :41:32.there was evidence of wrongdoing. Then on Friday night, there is
:41:32. > :41:36.nothing wrong in Falkirk at all, suggestions there may have been
:41:36. > :41:41.union manipulation. It has wrong-footed him and made him look
:41:41. > :41:48.weak. He has already lost money from one of the unions. He needs a
:41:48. > :41:52.coherent alternative economic strategy which they are miserably
:41:52. > :41:59.failing to do. He is petrified he may not win. The British public
:41:59. > :42:04.don't give a hoot about this. On the economy, how difficult is
:42:04. > :42:12.this for Labour? George Osborne arguing Labour has been proved
:42:13. > :42:16.wrong. Growth is back. It is a tricky strategic decision
:42:16. > :42:23.George Osborne made in his speech. He has decided that he wants to
:42:23. > :42:30.hammer home the message the economy is moving thanks to the column --
:42:30. > :42:34.the Conservatives. But there is a danger of things not progressing as
:42:34. > :42:39.fast as he would like. Recovery has been slow so far. And there is a
:42:39. > :42:44.danger of him appearing complacent. We remember George Bush after the
:42:44. > :42:54.invasion of Iraq saying, mission accomplished. There is a long way to
:42:54. > :42:58.go and Ed Miliband would be do well to do this, to hammer home the
:42:58. > :43:02.message that, for working people, things are not better yet, even if
:43:03. > :43:08.the economy is heading in the right direction. Living standards,
:43:08. > :43:14.household budgets are high, there is the spectre of another house prices
:43:14. > :43:19.bubble. People are feeling the pinch. Wages are lower than when
:43:19. > :43:24.David Cameron took power. Labour will be hammering home that. The
:43:24. > :43:29.economy will have centre ground closer to the general election.
:43:29. > :43:33.How careful does he have to be or is he sounding more confident about the
:43:33. > :43:45.economy and himself? He is, a poll yesterday suggested
:43:45. > :43:52.if... There is this just G of talking up the economy. I can see
:43:52. > :43:57.the point of that. The Daily Telegraph says, I have saved the
:43:57. > :44:00.economy, which is over the top. Gordon Brown said he saved the world
:44:00. > :44:04.or the banking system, I can't remember which. It is putting
:44:04. > :44:09.pressure on Labour. They said all along austerity doesn't work, you
:44:09. > :44:14.have to spend your way out of recession. Statistics are still
:44:14. > :44:19.fragile but looking more positive. And beginning to show the austerity
:44:19. > :44:24.programme is working. Some Tories today have said if only he had been
:44:24. > :44:30.more vigorous on austerity and cut public spending more, the economy
:44:30. > :44:35.would be looking even better. Enjoyed the converse is, thank you
:44:35. > :44:37.very much. I'm sure we will try hard.
:44:37. > :44:39.With me now for the rest of the programme, the cream of 2010 intake:
:44:39. > :44:42.Labour's Anas Sarwar. The Liberal Democrat MP Tessa Munt.
:44:42. > :44:46.And the Conservative MP Chris Skidmore.
:44:46. > :44:51.Welcome to the programme. Let us talk first about the
:44:51. > :44:54.economy. The Chancellor George Osborne has been making a speech
:44:54. > :45:00.today in which he said the UK economy is turning a corner.
:45:00. > :45:05.If economic collapse was even worse than we thought, preparing it will
:45:05. > :45:11.take even longer than we hoped. But we held our nerve, when many told us
:45:11. > :45:16.to abandon our plan. And, as a result, thanks to the efforts and
:45:16. > :45:22.sacrifices of the British people, Britain is turning a corner. Many
:45:22. > :45:27.risks remain. These are still the early stages of recovery. But we
:45:27. > :45:29.must not go back to square one. We must not lose what the British
:45:29. > :45:42.people have achieved. At PMQ 's Ed Balls used to do the
:45:42. > :45:47.famous flat-lining gesture to show the economy was not moving. Last
:45:47. > :45:51.week they had their own gesture to show we are returning to growth. Ed
:45:51. > :45:57.Balls's economic strategy has been undermined. The Chancellor has been
:45:57. > :46:01.doing this for three years and now he is trying to make it positive.
:46:01. > :46:05.Let's take the experiences of our he is trying to make it positive.
:46:05. > :46:12.friends and families. They will see every day we do not have the right
:46:12. > :46:16.types of jobs, we have youth unemployment at record levels, too
:46:16. > :46:22.many women are out of work, the quality of jobs and the rise in zero
:46:22. > :46:29.hours contracts, low wages, too many people below the living wage and...
:46:29. > :46:36.That is Labour's new economic case, fine. But we have sat here for the
:46:36. > :46:41.past three years listening to Labour politicians saying austerity would
:46:41. > :46:43.choke growth. It has been proved wrong. Labour has to admit that
:46:43. > :46:50.before moving on. We had growth wrong. Labour has to admit that
:46:50. > :46:54.the economy when the Tories came into government and unemployment was
:46:54. > :47:03.falling, and then unemployment started to rise when they came in
:47:03. > :47:07.and we had a double dip recession. George is right to say this recovery
:47:07. > :47:12.is built on the back of the British people. 29.7 million people
:47:12. > :47:19.employed, more than in any other age. But is it as a result of his
:47:19. > :47:28.policies that recovery has come? I think so. The deficit has gone from
:47:28. > :47:32.11% to 7%. And is now flat-lining. Mortgage rates have remained stable
:47:32. > :47:39.so working families campaign the bills. Why did Labour opposed the
:47:39. > :47:44.coalition policy of ensuring that the £10,000 remains tax-free so that
:47:44. > :47:54.we took 1.2 million people out of income tax altogether. Why did you
:47:54. > :47:58.oppose also... Reports clearly show that people are earning less by the
:47:58. > :48:04.end of this government and they were earning at the beginning of this
:48:04. > :48:09.government. Petrol is 10p cheaper. Your constituents not feeling the
:48:09. > :48:16.pain because mine are? Living costs would be worse if Labour are in
:48:16. > :48:21.power -- were in power. But you admit, prices are rising, wages are
:48:21. > :48:28.not rising, people do not feel better off. Do you accept your
:48:28. > :48:32.constituents do not feel better off? As George said, it is a slow
:48:32. > :48:40.recovery. We need to ensure that the only way to get wages rising in the
:48:40. > :48:44.longer term is to increase the economy overall. You are accepting
:48:44. > :48:49.it has got worse under this government? It would be even worse
:48:49. > :48:55.under Labour. Don't talk over each other because it is difficult for
:48:55. > :49:01.viewers. Chris Skidmore, it saying it would have been worse under
:49:01. > :49:06.Labour. IU supporting the plan to spend £12 billion to boost recovery
:49:06. > :49:13.-- are you supporting? That was a major part of the plan. Absolutely.
:49:13. > :49:21.You have to get the right type of borrowing. There is no point... You
:49:21. > :49:25.should increase borrowing to increase capital investment,
:49:25. > :49:30.increase quality jobs right across the country. That is what will get
:49:30. > :49:35.the economy moving and living standards up. Not the current
:49:35. > :49:41.scheme. Do people feel better off in your constituency? A number of
:49:41. > :49:50.people feel better off because of the things the Lib Dems have
:49:50. > :49:54.brought, we have made sure that £700 people have more in their pay
:49:54. > :49:56.packets... Even though their wages are falling and their fuel bills are
:49:56. > :50:04.packets... Even though their wages going up. We are making sure there
:50:04. > :50:08.is a tax cash back for people, £2000, various things in motion to
:50:08. > :50:14.make sure we ensure that job stay in the economy. There is a million more
:50:14. > :50:20.private-sector jobs. We want to create another million. Governments
:50:20. > :50:22.do not create those jobs. We have got the regional growth fund to
:50:22. > :50:26.do not create those jobs. We have structure more money into the
:50:26. > :50:29.regions for businesses, the business bank, the green investment bank, we
:50:29. > :50:35.regions for businesses, the business have invested in wind power we have
:50:35. > :50:39.made sure the structure is there to support various different
:50:39. > :50:48.industries. Company still complain that banks are not lending. Of
:50:48. > :50:55.course. Our bank has committed to 700 million. The point you have
:50:55. > :51:00.made, you have caught the Labour Party out. They spent three years
:51:00. > :51:03.saying we should go down a different plan but the reality is they dropped
:51:03. > :51:08.that message at the beginning of the summer and slowly, things look as
:51:08. > :51:16.though they are going in the right direction. We need to be cautious,
:51:16. > :51:18.because it is only two quarters that things have been going better, we
:51:18. > :51:21.because it is only two quarters that have to go carefully, but things
:51:21. > :51:30.because it is only two quarters that will get better. We need long-term,
:51:30. > :51:33.well-paid, full-time jobs and we are seeing zero hour contracts,
:51:34. > :51:40.part-time jobs on the rise, and speak to any business in any
:51:40. > :51:46.constituency, they still feel the squeeze. There is a commitment to
:51:46. > :51:50.spend 700 million. We don't need a commitment, we need people spending
:51:50. > :51:55.that money to create wealth and jobs. Not continued pledges from the
:51:55. > :52:03.Chancellor. Tests, it is interesting said things will get it. Things get
:52:03. > :52:08.better, nothing to do with government policies. And it is
:52:08. > :52:13.fragile, you said yourself. Yes, and it would be mad to say it is all
:52:13. > :52:17.sorted because I am not sure that is sensible. We have to make sure we
:52:17. > :52:24.keep helping businesses to create jobs. Is it risky for George Osborne
:52:24. > :52:31.to save the economy has turned a corner? I would not say that but I
:52:31. > :52:37.am not the Chancellor! I would not say that. There are a number of
:52:37. > :52:41.other fact is that could change. So this is a high risk strategy. Your
:52:41. > :52:46.coalition partner is saying growth is very fragile. All the signs you
:52:46. > :52:52.have seen show this is a balanced recovery. Manufacturing is at its
:52:53. > :52:57.highest level for 19 years. You cannot deny that there are positive
:52:57. > :53:02.signs but that does not stop us from being complacent. We must fight
:53:02. > :53:07.harder to get more people into work. We want to make sure hard-working
:53:07. > :53:09.people are rewarded. Now, the Liberal Democrat conference starts
:53:09. > :53:13.next week, but with Sarah Teather announcing that she's going to stand
:53:13. > :53:19.down at the next election, who's going to do the stand-up? I thought
:53:19. > :53:23.I wouldn't keep you for too long tonight because I want to get back
:53:23. > :53:27.to my hotel room to watch Strictly Come Dancing but coming back to
:53:27. > :53:34.George Osborne, I heard he wants to Come Dancing but coming back to
:53:34. > :53:43.do a line dance on the show. Brave of Sarah Teather. I take it you will
:53:43. > :53:50.not replace her in that? I do not do comedy! You are set to lose a woman
:53:50. > :54:03.MP. Add news for a party -- bad news for a party that has more men than
:54:03. > :54:07.women in Toluca Micro. Yes. Sarah has been a fantastic member of
:54:07. > :54:14.Parliament. She should be very proud of the work she has done. She fought
:54:14. > :54:18.for special needs young people and their parents and did a fantastic
:54:19. > :54:22.job as Minister for education. But she said she left feeling desolate
:54:22. > :54:28.and catastrophically depressed by some of the lip Dem policies. I did
:54:28. > :54:36.hear that quote. I would take a different view. My job is when
:54:36. > :54:41.something is wrong, to make people know about it. Is she alone in
:54:41. > :54:46.feeling like this in the party? I think it would be an unusual
:54:46. > :54:52.response. If I feel something is wrong, I knocked on doors of the
:54:52. > :54:59.ministers. They put their nameplate on. That is the point of being in
:54:59. > :55:05.coalition. The power that we have a disproportionate, as I am sure many
:55:05. > :55:07.of Chris's colleagues would say, but we can influence. She felt she
:55:07. > :55:11.of Chris's colleagues would say, but couldn't influence even as a
:55:11. > :55:13.minister, on things like immigration. She felt depressed
:55:13. > :55:16.minister, on things like about the benefits cap. Is that
:55:16. > :55:23.because she has been more principled on Liberal Democrat policies than
:55:23. > :55:28.others? Absolutely not. I am as good as the briefing I get from my
:55:28. > :55:33.constituents. I have my own opinions but I very often depend on my
:55:33. > :55:38.constituents to tell me what they feel strongly about. We need to get
:55:38. > :55:44.our voice heard in government. Nick Clegg, in his defence, he cannot
:55:45. > :55:50.mind read what 57 of us are thinking. She made her views pretty
:55:50. > :55:56.clear. But do you think that as Ming Campbell said, she could not take
:55:56. > :56:01.the heat? He said that coalition was not for the faint-hearted and that
:56:01. > :56:07.is right. She has a different way of dealing with things. We went into
:56:07. > :56:14.coalition to sort the country out and that is what she is trying to
:56:14. > :56:20.do. Is she going to defect? I feel sorry for her. The bigger point is
:56:20. > :56:23.this is a politician choosing to jump before the politicians per
:56:24. > :56:31.share. This is a seat that Labour needs to win. I think she has
:56:31. > :56:34.probably seen that. This is the time when everybody makes their
:56:34. > :56:37.decisions... I will have to leave it there.
:56:37. > :56:41.We were told HS2 had the potential to transform the economic shape of
:56:41. > :56:43.the UK, but this morning the Commons Public Accounts Committee has said
:56:44. > :56:47.estimated benefits of the planned high-speed rail link are dwindling
:56:47. > :56:49.as costs rise. Margaret Hodge, the chair of the Committee, has
:56:50. > :56:57.explained why she has changed her position. I have looked at the
:56:57. > :57:01.detail of the project. I have moved from being a supporter to thinking
:57:01. > :57:07.this is not the right place to put £50 billion of money. I am not
:57:07. > :57:12.alone. There are a growing number of voices who are sceptical about this
:57:12. > :57:22.project. I think the government needs to listen seriously, not leave
:57:22. > :57:25.this as a vanity project. We must increase rail capacity to ensure
:57:25. > :57:30.overcrowding does not take place. We had these debates probably when
:57:31. > :57:35.Isambard Kingdom Brunel was building! I welcome the fact the
:57:35. > :57:39.Labour Party are still having a cross-party position to support
:57:39. > :57:45.this. Alistair Darling is withdrawing his support. I still
:57:45. > :57:52.support High Speed Two. The West Coast Main line in Scotland will
:57:52. > :57:58.reach capacity in ten years. We need millions off the road, to free up
:57:58. > :58:00.space. That is a plus. Connectivity is a big thing. The further north
:58:00. > :58:06.the line goes, the more value it is is a big thing. The further north
:58:07. > :58:10.for us. I have always been a massive supporter for investment in rail and
:58:10. > :58:15.public transport but I do not think it will do much for the West
:58:15. > :58:19.Country. It is not just HS2, we are investing elsewhere.
:58:19. > :58:23.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:58:23. > :58:29.The question was this: According to Yale University research, what does
:58:29. > :58:36.politics make you bad at? Relationships, maths, grandma or
:58:36. > :58:48.sports? I will say sport.It is maths. Thank you both very much! All
:58:48. > :58:51.three of you! That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The one
:58:51. > :58:57.o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. I will be here at midday
:58:57. > :58:59.tomorrow. Goodbye.