:00:40. > :00:45.Afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. He was booed two years
:00:45. > :00:49.ago, last year he didn't turn up, but Ed Miliband's addressing his
:00:49. > :00:54.union mates as I speak. But will Red Ed pick a fight or try and make
:00:54. > :01:03.friends with his comrades at the TUC over power in the party? As the US
:01:03. > :01:10.weighs over to act in Syria, a new diplomatic solution is on the table.
:01:10. > :01:16.Now we're in here, it's quite clear this isn't being rented by just one
:01:16. > :01:24.family. Bed bugs and no broomsticks. We delve into the shady world of
:01:24. > :01:36.private landlords and overcrowding. And it's National Gibraltar Day, hip
:01:36. > :01:39.hip hooray. All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
:01:39. > :01:42.programme today is Sir Robin Wales. He's the elected Labour mayor of
:01:42. > :01:46.Newham Council, here in London. Welcome to the programme. Now, first
:01:47. > :01:50.this morning, let's start with a little snap shot of Britain because
:01:50. > :01:53.according to a new survey on social attitudes out today, Britons have a
:01:53. > :02:01.stronger belief in politics than 30 years ago but trust politicians
:02:01. > :02:04.less. Surprise, surprise. The British Social Attitudes Report also
:02:04. > :02:07.says that people sympathise more with the unemployed but struggle to
:02:07. > :02:13.support spending more on benefits. You agree with that, don't you? That
:02:13. > :02:18.is what people tell us and that is what the survey said. What is
:02:18. > :02:22.happening is that as there is focus on benefits, people realise it is
:02:22. > :02:27.not as generous as you might think, and support for people who will not
:02:27. > :02:31.working is not where it should be. As benefits spending is up, the way
:02:31. > :02:38.to deal with it is to get people into employment. That is what people
:02:38. > :02:47.think. You said that the system cuts people's legs off. The issue is this
:02:47. > :02:54.think. You said that the system cuts safety net on welfare. We get that.
:02:54. > :03:00.When you start work, the claw-back on benefit and tax means it does not
:03:00. > :03:10.pay. It is ludicrous that if you are wealthy then you can get 50p to the
:03:10. > :03:15.pound. The current proposals would let people keep 35p. We need a
:03:15. > :03:19.system where if you work then you can keep some of that money was you
:03:19. > :03:25.need to reward work. Successive governments said that. You should
:03:25. > :03:29.always paid to be in work and this government has said that they want
:03:29. > :03:38.is to change the benefit system to enforce that. Your contributory
:03:38. > :03:44.welfare system, will it reinforce that system between the deserving
:03:44. > :03:48.and undeserving? You need to support people into work. The current
:03:48. > :03:55.programme is a disaster and is not working. In my constituency we have
:03:55. > :04:00.a system. We spend money and get 5000 people a year into work. You
:04:00. > :04:05.need to support people into work. You would like to see more benefits
:04:05. > :04:09.for people in work and lesser people out of work? I think there needs to
:04:09. > :04:26.a safety net. That should include kids. We gave for e-mails to primary
:04:27. > :04:30.school kids. -- free school meals.I think people understand this. If you
:04:30. > :04:34.can encourage people to work and support them into work, and the
:04:34. > :04:40.evidence we have is that you can help people into work but you must
:04:40. > :04:43.invest. People need help. Do it properly and you can reduce the
:04:43. > :04:50.benefit Bill. Work is the solution to the problem. Shouldn't employers
:04:50. > :04:55.pay people more for the work they do, otherwise the tax credit system
:04:55. > :05:03.has been criticised because it keeps people on benefits. One thing we
:05:03. > :05:06.have said this government is, could we enforce the minimum wage? We know
:05:06. > :05:14.a lot of people are being paid under the minimum wage. We have said that
:05:14. > :05:21.lets make sure work is paid. We should move the minimum wage up. We
:05:21. > :05:23.are supporting this. It is all about putting the whole package together
:05:23. > :05:28.and this government is more concerned about attacking poor
:05:28. > :05:32.people and driving people out of London because they cannot afford to
:05:32. > :05:40.live there any more. They are more concerned with that than dealing
:05:40. > :05:44.with the issues. Now it's time for our daily quiz. Today we've learned,
:05:44. > :05:47.from one of his former England team-mates that footballer David
:05:47. > :05:51.Beckham had a crush on the wife of a British Prime Minister. So who was
:05:51. > :05:55.it? Was it:- A Sarah Brown, B Cherie Blair, C Norma Major, or D Samantha
:05:55. > :06:00.Cameron. At the end of the show, Robin Wales will give us the correct
:06:00. > :06:02.answer. Now, who says the BBC doesn't provide great family
:06:02. > :06:05.entertainment? Yesterday afternoon at 3.15pm, seven top players, past
:06:05. > :06:08.and present, from the world's leading public sector broadcaster
:06:08. > :06:10.appeared in front of the Commons Public Accounts Committee to answer
:06:10. > :06:19.some tough questions about big executive pay-offs. Eastenders, eat
:06:19. > :06:34.your heart out, here's a flavour of the event. Why was half £1 million,
:06:34. > :06:37.which for most people was a lot of money, not enough to get rid of
:06:37. > :06:41.someone who you decided was not needed? We were in the middle of a
:06:41. > :06:48.restructuring of the BBC, which meant losing a quarter of the senior
:06:48. > :06:54.management. We were in the middle of a series of gigantic projects to
:06:54. > :07:01.include the New Broadcasting House, and Salford. It also included the
:07:01. > :07:05.royal wedding and the Olympics. We took the decision, and it was my
:07:05. > :07:12.judgement, and we discussed it with the BBC Trust, that we wanted Mark
:07:12. > :07:19.fully focused on the enormous task we had. We did not want him taking
:07:19. > :07:23.calls from headhunters, we wanted him fully focused, and that is why
:07:23. > :07:27.we did not ask him to work through his notice. You had to apologise
:07:27. > :07:35.we did not ask him to work through because you claimed not to see a
:07:35. > :07:41.document... I think...We need to take that evidence with a pinch of
:07:41. > :07:46.salt. That is grossly unfair. You are referring to a document but I
:07:46. > :07:52.did not understand which document you meant at the time. After that
:07:52. > :07:59.meeting I was shown the document and I recognised it as a document I was
:07:59. > :08:04.involved in. I clarified that. All I said to the committee, and I am in
:08:04. > :08:10.some difficulty about this, I was not party to the agreement. I am in
:08:10. > :08:15.a position where I am accused of having misled the committee on
:08:15. > :08:21.something I never knew. Why was it not in the induction pack? We were
:08:21. > :08:25.not aware of the arrangements, either in writing or through all
:08:25. > :08:31.contact. That is the fact of the matter. I cannot believe that!If
:08:31. > :08:39.you want me to explain, I will do so. To discuss the fallout from
:08:39. > :08:41.yesterday's committee meeting I'm joined by member of the Public
:08:41. > :08:50.Accounts Committee Stewart Jackson, and by media commentator and friend
:08:50. > :08:57.of the programme Steve Hewlett. Your thoughts on the performances of Mark
:08:57. > :09:06.Thompson and Chris Patten? I thought Thompson was at the top of his game.
:09:06. > :09:10.He had a lot of riding of this, his potential media career, if he was
:09:10. > :09:16.seen to have lied or misled. He prepared well and was on top of his
:09:16. > :09:20.game. He was able to direct the committee towards looking at the
:09:21. > :09:23.failings and the dysfunctional nature of the relationship
:09:23. > :09:31.failings and the dysfunctional senior members of the BBC Trust. Are
:09:31. > :09:42.we any the wiser as to why departing executives were paid more than was
:09:42. > :09:45.necessary? You can sum it up by saying the BBC thought it was
:09:45. > :09:52.entitled to give private-sector pay and conditions in lieu of notice. I
:09:53. > :09:58.think there was a culture of the higher up you get, the more likely
:09:58. > :10:07.you were to get more enhanced payments. It was unacceptable and
:10:07. > :10:11.wrong. There was, demonstrated by the evidence, a disconnect between
:10:11. > :10:18.the managers and the rest of the staff. I was in a newsroom not 1
:10:18. > :10:25.million miles from here and when Margaret Hodge said, we will have no
:10:25. > :10:29.more lies today, thank you, a cheer went up from the staff in the
:10:29. > :10:34.newsroom. That's just tells you that there is a degree of dysfunction.
:10:34. > :10:38.Just to be clear, I do not think there is any doubt about what
:10:38. > :10:44.happened here and who was paid what, and who authorised it. Mark Thompson
:10:44. > :10:50.said he authorised it and it was a policy to reduced senior manager pay
:10:50. > :10:54.as soon as possible. He said he stood by it. The tricky bit here is
:10:54. > :10:57.about the BBC Trust and that isn't about whether they authorised it
:10:57. > :11:01.about the BBC Trust and that isn't because they never tire of saying,
:11:01. > :11:06.constitutionally, they are not allowed to authorise it. The
:11:06. > :11:10.question is, do they know? If you have an organisation called the BBC
:11:10. > :11:16.Trust, just think about the name for a second, which is there to protect
:11:16. > :11:18.licence payer's interest, but cannot express a view or intervene
:11:19. > :11:23.effectively when something is going wrong, then you plainly have a
:11:23. > :11:27.problem. I think it is more concentrated than that in this case.
:11:27. > :11:34.The original position which is that they had no documents or no
:11:34. > :11:44.recollections is completely wrong. That does not mean they knew
:11:44. > :11:50.everything. Did they know, in general? Yes, they did. The
:11:50. > :11:55.spotlight is on the BBC Trust and quite rightly in a way. They are the
:11:55. > :11:58.ones who were caught looking as though they have not been
:11:58. > :12:05.straightforward. Is that how you see it in terms of Chris Patten and the
:12:05. > :12:11.Trust? I think he should consider his position. He should go or be
:12:11. > :12:20.fired. He was not there, in fairness to him. He did not arrive at the BBC
:12:20. > :12:29.until several months after this. My problem is that you have Tony hall
:12:29. > :12:35.trying to gag everything. These people are paid a lot of money and
:12:35. > :12:38.have brought the BBC into disrepute. The BBC is a fantastic thing for
:12:38. > :12:44.this country and gives the enemies of the BBC more opportunities to
:12:44. > :12:53.criticise it. It started with a of the BBC more opportunities to
:12:53. > :12:56.payoff of George Entwistle. The National Audit Office began to look
:12:56. > :13:01.at payments after that and we are now in a fight with the BBC because,
:13:01. > :13:06.although we have used Parliamentary privilege and said we wanted the
:13:06. > :13:11.names of the managers who received payoffs, the culture was about
:13:11. > :13:17.payments made before they were signed off, and weak oversight. That
:13:17. > :13:22.is the issue. Who is to blame for that? There will be staff and
:13:22. > :13:31.members of the public who have taken a sharp intake of breath at the £1
:13:31. > :13:35.million payoff. The people in the front line of the management. Mark
:13:35. > :13:40.Thompson said that was the policy he stood by and he would do the same
:13:41. > :13:46.again. He argued that it was worth its, even if it meant paying over
:13:46. > :13:52.the odds. The overall Bill has been reduced and they say they have saved
:13:52. > :13:59.188 million. That is a valid argument. If we delayed and had done
:13:59. > :14:04.more negotiation it would have cost the licence payer of fortune. I
:14:04. > :14:09.think you will agree that the trust were asleep on the job. They are
:14:09. > :14:25.dysfunctional. Should somebody pay for that? Just to , meant --
:14:25. > :14:31.complements the committee, Mark Thomson's argument was that if they
:14:31. > :14:42.had not paid the extra, then he said his I would not be on the ball. How
:14:42. > :14:47.does an institution, in that sense, gets to that point? It is people at
:14:47. > :14:50.the top of the pyramid to all know each other and came into
:14:50. > :14:55.broadcasting at the same time. It happens in lots of institutions. Let
:14:55. > :15:00.me give you an example. You want to happens in lots of institutions. Let
:15:00. > :15:05.get rid of a cleaner, you double the payoff. That is true. That is
:15:05. > :15:09.something we need to crack down on. I preferred that Mark Thompson has
:15:09. > :15:12.said, I think it is right. You can criticise it but at least there is
:15:13. > :15:16.leadership there. It is leadership criticise it but at least there is
:15:16. > :15:21.and I think we should go forward with that. Do we need to hear from
:15:21. > :15:28.Tony hall? In this respect, in terms with that. Do we need to hear from
:15:28. > :15:32.of what happened then, not really. I think he is widely trying to stay
:15:32. > :15:38.out of the way and focus on... This is where the Trust are in
:15:38. > :15:43.difficulty. I think what they would like to do is be part of Tony
:15:43. > :15:51.hall's future and not part of Mark's past. They want to be in the
:15:51. > :15:55.new era of maximum pay-outs of hundred and 50 million and they
:15:55. > :15:59.don't want to be in the million pound payoff. The trouble is that
:15:59. > :16:04.they cannot escape their own history. I think the BBC Trust is
:16:04. > :16:13.asked and the BBC need to look for a new way forward. just yesterday, it
:16:13. > :16:18.seemed like President Obama was set on taking military action in Syria,
:16:18. > :16:23.as he took to the airwaves to persuade people to support him. Now
:16:23. > :16:30.he has said he will put plans for a military strike on hold if Syria
:16:30. > :16:34.agrees to place its military stockpile of weapons under control.
:16:34. > :16:40.France has said it would put a resolution to this to the UN
:16:40. > :16:44.Security Council. Last night, he was asked if this could pause military
:16:44. > :16:51.action? Absolutely, if that happened. I don't think we would
:16:51. > :16:51.have got to this point unless we have maintained a credible
:16:51. > :17:03.possibility of military strikes. I have maintained a credible
:17:03. > :17:11.want to make sure that the norm against chemical weapons is
:17:11. > :17:16.maintained. We are joined now by a Conservative MP who has just
:17:16. > :17:21.returned from the Syrian border. What is your response to this idea
:17:21. > :17:26.of Syria putting its chemical weapons at arms length and under
:17:26. > :17:32.international control? I think anything is possible. But I don't
:17:32. > :17:37.think a scorpion ever changes its habits, so I am not optimistic. We
:17:37. > :17:41.have two go the extra mile, give the Syrian government every opportunity
:17:41. > :17:50.to give up their chemical weapons. And if, the Secretary of State, John
:17:50. > :17:55.Kerry, said yesterday, if they are prepared to give up their chemical
:17:55. > :18:01.weapons this week, then perhaps they can prevent action being taken
:18:01. > :18:04.against them. Do you think it is right for President Obama to
:18:05. > :18:14.persuade Congress that while this is discussed, they should put military
:18:14. > :18:19.strikes on hold? He should ensure a resolution is passed, so if he does
:18:19. > :18:23.not give up his chemical weapons, I think the United States and the
:18:23. > :18:28.Alliance that has been put together, can take what ever action
:18:28. > :18:36.is necessary to bring President Assad to account. Would you like to
:18:36. > :18:41.see military action? I would like to see an end to the Civil War. So
:18:41. > :18:46.anything that could bring an end to the Civil War, I would like to see
:18:46. > :18:50.happen. But I would like to see President Assad and his brother, who
:18:50. > :18:54.I believe is directly responsible for the chemical attack, brought
:18:54. > :19:00.before the courts in the Hague. You have been on the Turkish, Syrian
:19:00. > :19:06.border so you will have seen floods of refugees trying to leave Syria
:19:06. > :19:10.for some sort of safe haven. Do you think this potential idea, which
:19:10. > :19:15.seems to me is about saving face for the politicians involved, will it
:19:16. > :19:25.help Syrians who are frightened for their lives? No it is not. There
:19:25. > :19:29.have been over 100,000 people killed by the president is sad military
:19:29. > :19:33.machine and by taking chemical weapons out of the occasion is not
:19:33. > :19:40.going to stop what is an asymmetrical war in which the Syrian
:19:40. > :19:44.regime is constantly bombarding both with aeroplanes and helicopters,
:19:44. > :19:50.heavy artillery and shells and so on, on innocent, Syrian civilians.
:19:50. > :19:54.Frankly, there is nothing I see in the future that will bring that to
:19:54. > :20:01.an end. Do you think President Assad will go for this idea? I think he
:20:01. > :20:04.will use it, as he always does, as a delaying tactic. I think the
:20:04. > :20:09.Russians will do everything possible to make sure it is used as a
:20:09. > :20:13.delaying device. I don't think there is any honest approach to try to
:20:13. > :20:16.bring an end to the Civil War. He will try to slaughter his people
:20:17. > :20:23.into submission with or without chemical weapons. Thanks for joining
:20:23. > :20:27.us. Jim Ure, our Middle East correspondence is in Beirut. Is this
:20:27. > :20:33.a turning point, or is it a delaying tactic? Obviously we will have to
:20:33. > :20:38.a turning point, or is it a delaying wait and see. I have always been
:20:38. > :20:43.foolishly optimistic on these things. I think when we look back in
:20:43. > :20:49.a few years, we might conceivably see it as a turning point. The
:20:49. > :20:53.Russians are now proposing something the Americans can accept. The French
:20:53. > :20:58.are putting forward this idea of a resolution, formulating this stuff
:20:58. > :21:00.about chemical weapons for a resolution at the UN. It will take a
:21:00. > :21:05.about chemical weapons for a lot of hammering out, but the basis
:21:05. > :21:10.is there, in the sense that both sides want to see chemical weapons
:21:10. > :21:18.collected up and destroyed. We could, for the first time, seeing
:21:19. > :21:22.Russia and America agreeing to a resolution being allowed through and
:21:22. > :21:26.the national trend would be to talk about reviving the Geneva peace
:21:26. > :21:32.process, which everybody agrees is the only way of settling this
:21:32. > :21:36.conflict. Everybody says there cannot be a military solution, there
:21:36. > :21:41.has to be a political one. If they cannot agree on these chemical
:21:41. > :21:45.weapons measures, the National -- natural progression would be to get
:21:45. > :21:52.a settlement under way again in Geneva or where ever. Thanks for
:21:52. > :21:56.joining us. Do you share that confidence and optimism, but this
:21:56. > :22:02.could be a way out for both President Obama, the Syrians and
:22:02. > :22:07.Russia? Who knows? It has to be a positive thing. The Russians have
:22:07. > :22:12.come along and said, we think we can take and do something with the
:22:12. > :22:16.chemical weapons. I think we have learned lessons from Iraq about
:22:16. > :22:21.intervening in civil wars and intervening in areas with a military
:22:21. > :22:26.force, it does not always work. We should be working with the United
:22:26. > :22:31.Nations and people across the world. The best we can hope for is to try
:22:31. > :22:36.to keep working to get diplomacy going. It sounds like good news. It
:22:36. > :22:40.is not bad news. Except the scepticism that it might not
:22:40. > :22:46.happen. It will, to some extent, focus on Britain's role and a gain
:22:47. > :22:50.on how David Cameron and Ed Miliband have dealt with this. First of all,
:22:50. > :22:56.the Prime Minister ruling out another vote on military action and
:22:56. > :23:00.Ed Miliband withdrawing support for what he saw was a march to war. I
:23:00. > :23:04.Ed Miliband withdrawing support for think Ed Miliband was right, we did
:23:04. > :23:09.not know enough. I think the Prime Minister came across as petulant.
:23:09. > :23:15.What he should have said, when we know more facts, we will talk about
:23:15. > :23:19.what we can do. The right way to do that is through a United Nations
:23:19. > :23:24.process and work with other countries. We are not the police of
:23:24. > :23:27.the world. What we can be is a force for the good when we are working
:23:27. > :23:33.with other people. I think Ed Miliband's position was correct.
:23:33. > :23:38.Would it make any difference? Is it the right time? Let's see what
:23:38. > :23:45.develops. This solution might not work, but what is the downside if it
:23:45. > :23:48.doesn't. If there was fresh evidence and circumstances change, they would
:23:48. > :23:54.look again at another vote and possibility of military action, what
:23:54. > :23:59.would your view be? I do like the idea of Britain being involved in
:23:59. > :24:07.military action. It will not solve things. -- I do not like. It will
:24:07. > :24:11.also kill and maim the people. It is finding a solution to the Syrian
:24:11. > :24:15.problem. The only way that will happen is by getting the major
:24:15. > :24:20.powers together and working it through politically.
:24:20. > :24:23.As we were saying earlier, Sir Robin Wales is the first directly elected
:24:23. > :24:30.mayor of the London Borough of Newham. He has been involved in the
:24:30. > :24:34.London 2012 Olympics. The borough has seen a great deal of
:24:34. > :24:39.regeneration, but there are still poor areas, suffering from
:24:39. > :24:43.overcrowding and deprivation. This has prompted the council to
:24:43. > :24:48.introduce mandatory landlord licensing, the first scheme of its
:24:48. > :24:53.kind in the country. Early morning in new in London, and
:24:53. > :24:58.three council officers are knocking on, although not kicking in, doors.
:24:58. > :25:04.It is not a courtesy call. Since February, the council have been
:25:04. > :25:08.enforcing the licensing of rented properties. The borough is full of
:25:08. > :25:14.ordinary houses, some of which have extraordinary numbers of occupants,
:25:14. > :25:18.whilst each room is unofficially rented as a flat. At first, there is
:25:18. > :25:24.little luck, but after a while someone opens up and we are allowed
:25:24. > :25:29.in. Actually, when we first arrived, despite some furious knocking and no
:25:29. > :25:34.one replied, and the entire group moved on down the street, I just
:25:34. > :25:39.happened to notice when I look back, people were peeking out of the
:25:40. > :25:45.window. Some of the occupants had looked out to see what was going on,
:25:45. > :25:51.so we all came back. Now we are in here, it is clear it is not being
:25:51. > :25:56.rented by just one family. Now we have come into the property and come
:25:56. > :26:01.to the top floor, we have locks on the outside of the doors. That
:26:01. > :26:05.indicates to us, that although the lady is saying and they are one
:26:05. > :26:09.family, they are living here with some friends staying, we would not
:26:09. > :26:16.normally have locks on doors. We need to investigate further. Police
:26:16. > :26:22.are in attendance, and why -- while many occupants who are paying very
:26:22. > :26:26.high rents are here significantly, some have overstayed their visas.
:26:26. > :26:32.But for legitimate residents, wide target them, why not rate the
:26:32. > :26:36.landlords? We need to get the evidence first of all to show the
:26:36. > :26:40.property is rented. This is what we are doing, gathering evidence,
:26:40. > :26:43.gathering statements and intelligence. We are making our own
:26:44. > :26:50.notes and taking our own photographs. Then we will go to see
:26:50. > :26:53.the landlord. So far, 110 cases have been brought against criminal
:26:53. > :26:58.landlords and the evidence gathering goes on. A different door, but the
:26:58. > :27:06.same story. We have access to another one. Just be careful of the
:27:06. > :27:14.carpet. The condition is not as good as the last one. And the last one
:27:14. > :27:18.was not great. The state of the house and the kitchen is astonishing
:27:18. > :27:24.in comparison to the rent charged. Just as it is in the next property.
:27:24. > :27:29.This is another one they think may have multiple occupancy, being
:27:29. > :27:35.unlicensed. You cannot help feeling a little bit sorry for the people.
:27:35. > :27:39.The landlord is making up to £50,000 a year from multiple rental on a
:27:39. > :27:48.property unlicensed, unsafe and unpleasant for such use. These marks
:27:49. > :27:58.are squashed bedbugs. In my hair, in my ears, it in my hair. 15 last
:27:58. > :28:03.night? Yes. It is no surprise the council are accusing in new of being
:28:03. > :28:09.a thing cover for border agency checks. But it is clear for now, the
:28:09. > :28:14.raids will go on. Why did you decide to do this? When
:28:15. > :28:20.we looked at the situation there has been a big expansion in the private
:28:20. > :28:24.sector rental market in you. You are twice as likely to get anti-social
:28:24. > :28:29.behaviour from a property that is rented. We had lots of complaints,
:28:29. > :28:34.rubbish in gardens, people behaving badly, people making noise. If you
:28:34. > :28:40.have lots of people in a house, they generate noise and it is awful. Then
:28:40. > :28:44.when we looked, people are being exploited. They are people who do
:28:44. > :28:55.not care. A third of the landlords are very good, a and about 25% are
:28:55. > :28:57.criminals. We are out to get the 25% of criminal landlords. We have no
:28:57. > :29:00.issue with landlords, it is the ones who are criminal putting too many
:29:00. > :29:06.people in a property. 15 people, typically. We have two people living
:29:06. > :29:13.in a walk in freezer. It is not good enough. They are shocking, some of
:29:13. > :29:16.the pictures and I am sure people think those squalid conditions are
:29:16. > :29:20.unacceptable. But there is obviously think those squalid conditions are
:29:20. > :29:23.demand out there. Report said you feel a bit sorry for the people
:29:23. > :29:29.living there, when you have your teams going in? We are going to
:29:29. > :29:34.drive these landlords out and have the properties improved, so they are
:29:34. > :29:39.better places for people to live. If we don't do this, it is £50 for a
:29:39. > :29:45.bed, typically. They are making a fortune? Of course they are. If we
:29:45. > :29:50.don't do anything, more people will do it. It is not the people we are
:29:50. > :29:56.after, it is the landlords we go after. But there may be people
:29:56. > :30:03.living illegally there? What we have found is, out of the 600 unlicensed
:30:03. > :30:09.properties we visited, one in five we made an arrest. We are paying for
:30:09. > :30:13.the police officers. It is costing us money. Residents are telling us
:30:13. > :30:19.they are sick and tired of living next to places who are bad. What you
:30:19. > :30:23.have seen is replicated in many properties. We are not going to put
:30:23. > :30:28.up with it. How long are you going to do this for? It is very
:30:28. > :30:34.expensive. How long will you continue to do this? Until we clear
:30:34. > :30:38.these bad landlords out. A good landlord, if you register, £150 for
:30:38. > :30:44.five years. Interestingly, across landlord, if you register, £150 for
:30:44. > :30:48.London and the rest of the country, people are looking at this. Who else
:30:48. > :30:56.is looking at this in London councils? We have been talking to
:30:56. > :31:00.Oxford, Blackpool and Liverpool. This is trailblazing. As they see
:31:00. > :31:03.the impact, other people will want to do it. We have the same problem
:31:03. > :31:07.in other parts of London in particular. You could argue that
:31:07. > :31:13.some of these dodgy landlords could go to neighbouring counties?
:31:13. > :31:17.Anecdotally, that is what we are hearing. Other councils will respond
:31:17. > :31:20.the same way. In the end it is about the neighbours who have been putting
:31:20. > :31:25.up with appalling problems from these places, and the people who are
:31:25. > :31:35.exploited. You have children living in a number of them. You see that,
:31:35. > :31:38.and it is not on. We cannot allow this. If we don't do anything, it
:31:38. > :31:48.will turn into a ghetto. What about the number of landlords
:31:48. > :31:55.that are signed up to the new licensing scheme? It is 25% of the
:31:55. > :32:01.landlords. It is cash in hand and they are not paying tax. It is being
:32:01. > :32:07.avoided by these people. There are criminals living in them. Many are
:32:07. > :32:12.avoided by these people. There are arrested for immigration but for
:32:12. > :32:16.other crimes as well. What about the legacy for 2012 for your area? You
:32:16. > :32:22.were in the spotlight and this is your dark side. You were trying to
:32:22. > :32:29.clear the issue up. Has the legacy been a good thing? It has created
:32:29. > :32:34.jobs and opportunities. We have got 5000 people into work last year. We
:32:34. > :32:42.think employment is important. On top of that, we have invested 40
:32:42. > :32:46.million in sport. Every child gets free tuition. What we wanted from
:32:46. > :32:50.million in sport. Every child gets the Olympics was inspiration and I
:32:50. > :32:59.think it has inspired our people. Last night we had a show for
:32:59. > :33:04.schoolchildren to come to. For us, it it was regeneration but
:33:05. > :33:10.inspiration as well. There are lots of good news stories, but we will
:33:10. > :33:14.not allow the bad news stories to continue either. Now, the weather's
:33:14. > :33:17.getting colder, the mornings are getting darker and the leaves are
:33:17. > :33:20.starting to turn. But that hasn't stopped Ed Miliband from planning a
:33:20. > :33:24.nice trip to the seaside. However, it's choppy waters ahead for the
:33:24. > :33:27.Labour leader who addressed the TUC conference in Bournemouth this
:33:27. > :33:31.morning. His most pressing challenge is to sort out Labour's relationship
:33:31. > :33:34.with the unions. It's all guns blazing between the two sides over
:33:34. > :33:37.proposed changes to Labour Party funding in the wake of the
:33:37. > :33:43.controversy over the selection of Labour's candidate in Falkirk. And
:33:43. > :33:46.fighting with the unions means Labour's finances looks likely to
:33:46. > :33:52.take a hit with both the GMB and Unison withdrawing some of their
:33:52. > :33:57.funding to the party. Meanwhile, voters still haven't warmed to Ed.
:33:57. > :34:01.The latest poll shows his net approval rating is at minus 31
:34:01. > :34:07.compared to just minus 15 for David Cameron. And that's all while things
:34:07. > :34:09.are looking rosier for the government, with George Osborne
:34:09. > :34:18.insisting the UK economy has turned a corner all thanks to their
:34:18. > :34:19.economic policy. I want a different relationship with individual trade
:34:19. > :34:25.union members as part of building a relationship with individual trade
:34:25. > :34:29.different Labour Party. Some people ask me, why do you think it is
:34:29. > :34:35.necessary to make these changes? Let me try and explain. We have 3
:34:35. > :34:41.million working men and women affiliated to our party, and I am
:34:41. > :34:47.proud of that. I am proud of that link. But here is the problem. So
:34:47. > :34:55.many of them, the vast majority of them, play no role in our local
:34:55. > :35:00.parties. They are affiliated in name only. That was not the vision of the
:35:00. > :35:03.founders of our party. That is not my vision and it is not your vision
:35:03. > :35:09.either. I want each and every my vision and it is not your vision
:35:09. > :35:16.affiliated member of the Labour Party to be a real part of the
:35:16. > :35:24.party. A real voice in our party based on an active choice to be part
:35:24. > :35:27.of the party. Well, joining me now from Bournemouth are two union
:35:27. > :35:30.delegates who were listening to Ed Miliband's speech - Maureen Le
:35:30. > :35:41.Marinel from Unison and Lisa Johnson from the GMB. Your response to the
:35:41. > :35:52.speech? I think he said some of the right things. Certainly, our members
:35:52. > :35:55.are not asking what the funding relationship is between ourselves
:35:55. > :36:00.and the Labour Party but what they are wanting to hear is what he is
:36:00. > :36:06.going to do about the economic crisis and how he is going to get
:36:06. > :36:10.education for our young people, jobs for our young people, how he is
:36:10. > :36:14.going to fight the Bedroom Tax which is forcing our families out of their
:36:14. > :36:19.homes. They are the important thing is that the members. Do you think he
:36:19. > :36:26.has picked the wrong time to have a fight? I do not think there is a
:36:26. > :36:33.fight in all honesty. I think Ed Miliband is saying that people
:36:33. > :36:40.should have a choice. Where Unison members are concerned, we have
:36:40. > :36:44.always had that choice. For us, and our members, what Ed Miliband is
:36:44. > :36:53.suggesting is no different to the way we have been operating for ten
:36:53. > :37:04.years. Was the GMB union rights to cut funding to the Labour Party? --
:37:04. > :37:11.right. What we have seen today from Ed Miliband is what we want to hear.
:37:11. > :37:17.We want to hear how to get people back to work and how people can pay
:37:17. > :37:23.the Bills. This is exactly what we need to talk about. I am not sure
:37:23. > :37:30.that our members in care homes and the dinner ladies want us to talk
:37:30. > :37:34.about an internal Labour Party issued when they are struggling to
:37:34. > :37:40.pay the Bills. Do you think this was the wrong time to bring this up? He
:37:40. > :37:47.was the one that tried to reform the relationship and used the Falkirk
:37:47. > :37:55.saga to act as a platform. That is exactly what I think. People are
:37:55. > :38:00.interested on policies that impact on their everyday lives. They are
:38:00. > :38:05.not interested in internal party workings. We're not saying we do not
:38:05. > :38:11.want change at all. Our general secretary said many times it was not
:38:11. > :38:17.working exactly as we wanted but it needs to be the right change and
:38:17. > :38:22.Labour need to start talking. Maureen, you are both members of the
:38:22. > :38:26.Labour Party, how many new members Do you think will join up to Labour
:38:26. > :38:34.if they have to do it as individual members? I think if members know
:38:34. > :38:36.that they have that choice then more people will join the Labour Party
:38:36. > :38:46.because they know that they have that choice. 300,000?Why not? Why
:38:46. > :38:49.not 300,000? It Ed Miliband is going to lead the Labour Party in the
:38:49. > :38:52.right way for the people of this country, doing all the economic
:38:52. > :38:58.things and getting them off the ground, that the public ones, and
:38:58. > :39:04.that the community needs, then I believe that the Labour Party is the
:39:04. > :39:09.party for the future. Thank you very much for joining us from sunny
:39:09. > :39:14.Bournemouth. That's the view from Bournemouth. Labour's Chuka Umanna
:39:14. > :39:16.joins me now. They are optimistic about all of these new members that
:39:16. > :39:25.will sign up. What other political about all of these new members that
:39:25. > :39:32.parties have turned down the membership declination? We have a
:39:32. > :39:37.crisis of politics across the Western world. The point is that
:39:37. > :39:47.this is not just an issue for the Labour Party. We are seeking to
:39:47. > :39:52.tackle this crisis and I found, in my own constituency, in many
:39:52. > :39:56.respects, people are more political than ever because of the adverse
:39:56. > :40:01.circumstances that they are living in, but they have never felt so
:40:01. > :40:05.distant from party politics. That represents a challenge for you in
:40:05. > :40:09.the media and for us. I think we have a head start over other
:40:09. > :40:14.political parties because we have a link to 3 million people who power
:40:14. > :40:18.British businesses and services. What we are trying to do through
:40:18. > :40:26.these reforms is making sure we have a better relationship with them.
:40:26. > :40:28.Secondly, we need to take big money out of politics and that is why this
:40:28. > :40:37.individual link, and having a funding to the Labour Party, is so
:40:37. > :40:41.important. Compare and contrast that to the Conservative party who've
:40:41. > :40:49.made no effort to transform politics whatsoever. They use this issue to
:40:49. > :40:57.denigrate hard-working trade union members. Since you brought it up,
:40:57. > :41:02.about taking the big money out of politics, there will be many voters
:41:02. > :41:07.who are saying it is brave to tackle this issue at this point. You have
:41:07. > :41:11.laid all your cards on the table and have picked a fight with union
:41:11. > :41:18.leaders, what concessions have you got for the Tories? It is not about
:41:18. > :41:24.picking a fight. Quite frankly, there have been no concessions from
:41:24. > :41:35.the Conservative party... They are in a position where they lose 25% of
:41:35. > :41:42.their funding. MPs in marginal seats will be thinking yikes! If we do not
:41:42. > :41:46.sort out our politics it does not matter what policies we come up
:41:46. > :41:51.with. That is why this is a priority. The principle of having a
:41:51. > :41:56.healthy democracy has got to come before big money. We have had a
:41:56. > :42:01.discussion about where we set a funding cap. The simple fact is that
:42:01. > :42:08.if your viewers would sue Google Conservative party, you will see
:42:08. > :42:14.that for the price of £50,000 a year, you can have a dinner with
:42:14. > :42:18.David Cameron. We think that is big money. I know that there you have
:42:18. > :42:23.David Cameron. We think that is big not achieved it. We will achieve!
:42:24. > :42:30.That is an issue for them. We are adjusting... You are going to
:42:31. > :42:37.bankrupt your party... No, we are not! Diane Abbott, your colleague,
:42:37. > :42:42.said she is not worried about it because the union leaders will come
:42:42. > :42:48.up with the money when election time comes. Is that your strategy? The
:42:48. > :42:56.money that the GMB is cutting will come back just before the election?
:42:56. > :43:01.I think you are missing the point as to why we are doing this. Jo, I am
:43:01. > :43:06.not going to deny that there will be a dent in the Labour Party's
:43:06. > :43:11.finances but the majority of our funding comes from small donations
:43:11. > :43:16.and individuals. The idea that the Labour Party is suddenly going to be
:43:16. > :43:23.bankrupt is not a picture that I recognise. The implication that
:43:23. > :43:34.ending affiliation with trade unions is that they will lose their
:43:34. > :43:41.leadership. The block vote, will that end? Lord Ray Collins is
:43:41. > :43:47.carrying out the review into the reforms and if we opt in, that will
:43:47. > :43:50.have implications for our roles but he is consulting with all of the
:43:50. > :43:55.stakeholders in the Labour Party to work out a reform package. I was
:43:55. > :43:59.talking about the need for a change to politics. If I come on this
:43:59. > :44:03.programme and dictate everything that is going to happen, without us
:44:03. > :44:09.having a consultation with the members, it makes a mockery of
:44:09. > :44:14.everything. Was this the right time to do this because you could argue
:44:14. > :44:18.that Ed Miliband has been a leader for three years and there has been
:44:18. > :44:25.no mention of this dramatic reform or changing relationship? Falkirk
:44:25. > :44:31.happens and then there is a revolution. Perhaps it was not done
:44:31. > :44:37.in the best way but he stood up and said he thought it was wrong before
:44:37. > :44:41.anyone else was doing it. He said, we need to get more working people
:44:41. > :44:46.into the Labour Party. The Labour Party desperately needs those
:44:46. > :44:51.people. Do you want it to happen? Yes. We will see a big increase in
:44:51. > :44:56.membership and we will see hundreds Yes. We will see a big increase in
:44:56. > :45:00.of people knocking on doors during the next election. I am not bothered
:45:00. > :45:05.about the money. He has done the right thing and we have a leader who
:45:05. > :45:09.does the right thing. I have been in the Labour Party for more years than
:45:09. > :45:15.I care to mention. I go back to 1970, and if I had a pound for every
:45:15. > :45:21.time that you said there was a battle between Labour and the trade
:45:21. > :45:27.unions, we will get people who work. We will get people who work on lower
:45:27. > :45:30.incomes coming in and influencing the Labour Party. It is good for
:45:30. > :45:43.politics and is the right thing to do. Let's talk about what the Tories
:45:44. > :45:47.will do with their big donations. Yesterday Diane Abbott said people
:45:47. > :45:59.in the Labour Party are obsessed that he is not labelled Red Ed. Is
:45:59. > :46:07.that true? I don't agree with that. I don't believe we are obsessed with
:46:07. > :46:12.that. What we are obsessed with is putting forward a positive vision on
:46:12. > :46:15.how we can build a fairer, more equal and democratic and more
:46:15. > :46:25.prosperous Britain. That is why you have seen exploitative use of zero
:46:25. > :46:29.hours contract. Do you not agree with zero hours contracts? You think
:46:29. > :46:34.they are applicable in some instances? Ed Miliband said you
:46:35. > :46:44.cannot force people to work. Those are important. And where possible we
:46:44. > :46:52.should have permanent contracts. For a music programme, we have to give
:46:52. > :46:57.people a contract for a term. What I have said as a result of what it has
:46:57. > :47:02.done, I have instigated a review of all the zero hours contract in the
:47:02. > :47:07.council, we have 112 of them. I would rather have people working on
:47:07. > :47:13.proper contracts. He has not said no to zero contracts, he has said about
:47:13. > :47:24.the abuse of them. Exploitation. That is what we are trying to outlaw
:47:24. > :47:30.them. In a year, let's see how many new members there are to the Labour
:47:30. > :47:41.Party. Bold, radical change is what we need. And 300,000 new members.
:47:41. > :47:46.Today is an important day on a two square miles rock off the coast of
:47:46. > :47:52.Spain. I'm talking about Gibraltar which is celebrating National Jibril
:47:52. > :47:59.today, marking the 19th anniversary of the southern tree agreement.
:47:59. > :48:04.After authorities dropped 74 concrete blocks into the bay to
:48:04. > :48:14.build what they say is an artificial reef to encourage conservation,
:48:14. > :48:18.there has been controversy. Madrid have retaliated by increasing border
:48:18. > :48:23.checks between Spain and Gibraltar. I spoke to the Chief Minister of
:48:23. > :48:29.Gibraltar and I asked him what the day would involve. Today we are
:48:29. > :48:32.celebrating the first expression of our free will in Gibraltar, which
:48:32. > :48:38.celebrating the first expression of was on the 10th of September 1967,
:48:38. > :48:43.first referendum. 99% of people voted to remain British and we are
:48:43. > :48:47.remembering that expression of free will by dressing up in red and
:48:47. > :48:53.white. The main streets and squares are a swathe of red and white.
:48:53. > :48:57.Everybody is enjoying the day as a National Carnival and celebration.
:48:57. > :49:02.Sounds wonderful, will you get a message from the Prime Minister,
:49:02. > :49:11.David Cameron? We have had a message from the Prime Minister delivered
:49:11. > :49:15.today, where he has been clear and loud in his support for the people
:49:15. > :49:19.of Gibraltar and our right to determine our political future for
:49:19. > :49:27.ourselves. In particular, to choose to remain British. This comes after
:49:27. > :49:29.a summer of tension between Spain, Gibraltar and Great Britain, if you
:49:29. > :49:35.like. What is this most recent row Gibraltar and Great Britain, if you
:49:35. > :49:40.with Spain really like? It has got to be about more than just the
:49:40. > :49:47.artificial reef built by Gibraltar? You are right, in the same way it is
:49:47. > :49:54.not about why there are officers shooting at a jet skier which they
:49:54. > :50:00.did two weeks before the reef was set up. It is all about Spain
:50:00. > :50:04.wanting to take the sovereignty of Gibraltar. Spain were saying I wish
:50:04. > :50:08.to persuade the people of Gibraltar they should stop being British and
:50:08. > :50:13.become Spanish. That is one way of dealing with the matter. Spain says
:50:13. > :50:18.the wishes of the people of Gibraltar are irrelevant and we
:50:18. > :50:23.should be turned into a Spanish territory, because there are some
:50:23. > :50:30.resolutions of the United Nations from the 1960s which say this and
:50:30. > :50:33.the treaty should be undone. That is the background issue.
:50:33. > :50:38.Geographically, you are so close to Spain, you could not be any closer.
:50:38. > :50:42.If relations are that bad between yourselves, the Spanish and Great
:50:42. > :50:47.Britain, it is not good for you and the people of Gibraltar. We do not
:50:47. > :50:51.wish for there to be bad relations between Spain and Gibraltar. We
:50:51. > :50:57.could boast of a great relationship with Spain. Our most important
:50:57. > :51:03.relationship in the world is that with the United Kingdom. And the
:51:03. > :51:11.second important relationships are that with Spain and Morocco. We have
:51:11. > :51:14.a fluid communication with the municipality. But unfortunately the
:51:14. > :51:18.Spanish government does not want to engage in direct contact with the
:51:18. > :51:21.government of Gibraltar and the forum that has been set up for that
:51:21. > :51:34.purpose. Hopefully the formula William Hague has proposed a leaders
:51:34. > :51:41.to rekindle some contract with Madrid. -- contact. You have
:51:41. > :51:54.described Spain as acting like North Korea over the latest tensions. That
:51:54. > :51:56.will not help the matter will it? I was quoting the Spanish foreign
:51:56. > :52:04.minister in an interview on the 4th of August. An interview from which
:52:04. > :52:07.he has resile in great measure now. But in that interview, the way he
:52:07. > :52:11.expressed issues was a kin to that But in that interview, the way he
:52:11. > :52:15.you might expect from the North Korean regime. A complete
:52:15. > :52:20.overreaction and an attack on the people of Gibraltar. Are you
:52:20. > :52:28.entirely blameless in the tensions that have built up in recent weeks?
:52:28. > :52:32.Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I am a politician, and
:52:32. > :52:36.politicians in this area have tried to take an axe to human relations
:52:36. > :52:41.because of the way they deal with things. I would not be the first one
:52:41. > :52:44.to say I am entirely blameless in everything. Even though every time
:52:44. > :52:52.we have acted we have acted reasonably, responsibly to try to
:52:52. > :52:58.deflect tensions. But I let others judge me, not myself. We'll
:52:58. > :53:03.relations improve with Spain, or do you think it could deteriorate
:53:03. > :53:09.further? The will of the people of Gibraltar prevails. The relationship
:53:09. > :53:11.will only improve, and the best possible relationship between the
:53:11. > :53:14.people of Gibraltar and the people possible relationship between the
:53:14. > :53:20.of Spain, and the two governments, we think it is important for the
:53:20. > :53:27.people. In particular, the people of the region. But there is no region
:53:27. > :53:31.-- reason for people in Madrid to read in the newspapers that there is
:53:31. > :53:39.friction between Gibraltar and Spain. Gibraltar is an opportunity
:53:39. > :53:43.to showcase how well Anglo Spanish relations can go and take the
:53:43. > :53:48.benefits of Gibraltar and the economic opportunities we create and
:53:48. > :53:52.four Gibraltar to enjoy the touristic opportunities the region
:53:52. > :53:59.around us provides. That is what I would like to see is concentrating
:53:59. > :54:03.on. Enjoy the day.Thank you very much, indeed.
:54:03. > :54:11.I am joined by Ian Paisley, and London correspondent for the Spanish
:54:11. > :54:20.nationalist -- national newspaper, ABC. What do the Spanish press make
:54:20. > :54:26.of the Gibraltar story? It made for an August vacuum story to fill our
:54:26. > :54:32.pages and covers. It is a big story. It comes and goes. The main elements
:54:33. > :54:38.of the story are well-known. It is a British colony, it will probably
:54:38. > :54:41.always remain a British colony. But other elements were played out
:54:41. > :54:46.through the summer that are different to previous incidents. So
:54:46. > :54:52.there was a story and people had feelings about this story. And some
:54:52. > :54:56.of the more social and economical elements of the story involving
:54:56. > :54:59.fishermen. People get quite emotional about fishing rights. What
:54:59. > :55:07.have the Spanish made about fishing rights, telling the Spanish
:55:07. > :55:15.ambassador in London to pack his sombrero, straw donkey and sangria
:55:15. > :55:21.and go? I have not spoken to the ambassador, he does not wear a
:55:21. > :55:30.sombrero, and does not have a donkey. But he does like a drink
:55:30. > :55:40.once in a while. British people do drink tonnes of sangria. Do you
:55:40. > :55:44.regret your choice of words? I don't think the ambassador has had a
:55:44. > :55:51.bypass operation of humour. It is a very tense situation, was it
:55:51. > :55:55.appropriate to use that humour. Others say it was insulting to refer
:55:55. > :56:01.so personally to the Spanish ambassador and Spain in that way.
:56:01. > :56:06.Did it help? We met with the Minister prior to this question Time
:56:06. > :56:13.and the feelings in that group were very strong. They wanted to summon
:56:13. > :56:20.ambassador in and tell him that this was technically wrong with what was
:56:20. > :56:26.happening in Gibraltar. Is that what you think? That is why I thought
:56:26. > :56:33.about putting humour in this and deflect some of the feelings but
:56:33. > :56:41.make the point. I hope tension does go down. The Prime Minister needs a
:56:41. > :56:46.good relationship with Spain, Spain needs a good relationship with him.
:56:47. > :56:53.Are the Spanish passionate about getting Gibraltar back? It goes to
:56:53. > :56:58.the national feelings. But it is not just a strategic issue in the minds
:56:58. > :57:01.of the people. Most people would agree with the saying, Spanish
:57:01. > :57:07.Gibraltar. But for the government, agree with the saying, Spanish
:57:08. > :57:13.it is different. Gibraltar is a tax haven. Spain has its own tax haven
:57:14. > :57:23.list which includes Gibraltar. It has a problem with tobacco
:57:23. > :57:28.smuggling. It was once a beautiful, natural bay, now filled with an
:57:28. > :57:35.ugly, industrial landscape. The Minister said it, they should be on
:57:35. > :57:38.good terms and there would be a lot of potential for developing a
:57:38. > :57:44.beautiful area on both sides of the border, but it is not happening. The
:57:44. > :57:49.people who live on this rock, families who stay there. They have
:57:49. > :57:53.said they British and want to remain British. That is what needs to be
:57:53. > :57:59.respected. It may be easy to walk away from it, but it cannot be
:57:59. > :58:01.done, these people have rights. Should the government be tougher
:58:01. > :58:10.with the Spanish government? I think they should. What would you do? I
:58:11. > :58:14.cannot imagine any situation where people who want to be part of
:58:14. > :58:18.Britain, we would walk away from them. But to compare them to North
:58:18. > :58:22.Korea however, if there are issues them. But to compare them to North
:58:22. > :58:29.they should be dealt with. It suits politicians to make a fuss about it.
:58:29. > :58:33.And it filled the newspapers in Spain over August. I will have to
:58:33. > :58:38.say goodbye to both of you. Just before we go, we can find out the
:58:38. > :58:43.answer to our quiz. Which leader's wife does David Beckham have a crush
:58:43. > :58:53.on, according to one of his former team-mates? Which one? I would guess
:58:53. > :58:58.Cherie Blair. You are right. That is all for today. Thanks to our guests.
:58:58. > :59:00.The 1pm news is starting on BBC One now. We will be back at 11:30am
:59:00. > :59:01.tomorrow.