:00:38. > :00:43.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. The Bank of England
:00:43. > :00:47.is urged to intervene in the housing market and limit price
:00:47. > :00:52.rises to 5% a year to avoid a house price bubble. How is that possible?
:00:52. > :00:56.The Green Party kick off conference season with their gathering in
:00:56. > :00:57.Brighton. We will report from the Green-run city and talk to its
:00:57. > :01:03.Green MP, Caroline Lucas. Labour continue their campaign
:01:03. > :01:05.against zero hours contracts but what are they and why are they in
:01:05. > :01:12.Ed Miliband's sights? And we'll wrap up all this week's
:01:12. > :01:21.top political stories in just 60 seconds. Or a pacy ten seconds, if
:01:21. > :01:28.you are paying attention now! That is the name of the game. You have
:01:28. > :01:40.lied to the people of London. I apologise. It just popped out. With
:01:40. > :01:45.Boris, it has a habit of popping out, quite regularly. All that in
:01:45. > :01:47.the next hour. And with me for the duration, Iain Martin, who writes
:01:47. > :01:51.for the Sunday Telegraph, and Miranda Green, a former Lib Dem
:01:51. > :02:03.insider, who now edits The Day - a daily news service for students.
:02:03. > :02:12.She did not just be called the half-day? It is for secondary
:02:12. > :02:20.schools. These of students who have to stay all day! It will never
:02:20. > :02:22.catch on. Let's kick off with the suggestion this morning that the
:02:22. > :02:25.Bank of England should intervene to put a lid on house price rises. The
:02:25. > :02:28.Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors says the Bank should
:02:28. > :02:34.consider acting to limit increases in the cost of houses to 5% a year
:02:35. > :02:39.to take the froth out of the market. I would see it more as a speed bump.
:02:40. > :02:44.When house-price inflation hits a certain level, there will be a
:02:44. > :02:49.reaction from the Bank of England to try to slow things down. It is
:02:49. > :02:54.about a more sustainable market. We're trying to avoid the market
:02:54. > :02:59.lurching from bust to boom and back to bust again. What gives these
:03:00. > :03:03.chartered surveyors the idea they can do just declared that house
:03:03. > :03:10.prices should not rise by more than 5%? We are just coming off the back
:03:10. > :03:15.of an economic crisis that has lasted almost as long as the Second
:03:15. > :03:24.World War. I'm not sure how the proposals are practical. The
:03:24. > :03:30.British are addicted to house price rises. It is also a very London
:03:30. > :03:37.centric you. House prices are rising about 6% in London. London
:03:37. > :03:43.has a whole ecosystem of its own. They are not rising in Wales. That
:03:43. > :03:47.is the danger with this sort of proposal. It is understandable
:03:47. > :03:52.where this is coming from. Maybe introducing some grit in the system
:03:52. > :03:56.is a good idea. If you tried to do something to damp down London, all
:03:56. > :03:59.the other areas of the country where people are still seeing the
:03:59. > :04:09.value of homes for Jews year on year and not rise at all, will
:04:09. > :04:15.suffer. -- reduced. There are legitimate concerns that this new
:04:15. > :04:19.growth in house prices is not happening of its own volition. It
:04:19. > :04:24.is happening because the Government is pumping up the market. Precisely.
:04:24. > :04:28.The Government was desperate when it did not think growth was coming.
:04:28. > :04:32.It launched the scheme and is stuck with it. It is a bizarre
:04:32. > :04:36.proposition. After the experience of the last decade and a half and
:04:36. > :04:40.the economic disaster that came from the last property bubble that
:04:40. > :04:45.the Government should be fuelling house prices. It is completely
:04:45. > :04:48.bonkers. If the Government is to give help to any kind of borrowers
:04:48. > :04:55.cricketers not housebuyers it should be helping. That will not
:04:55. > :05:00.happen anyway. -- borrowers, it is not house buyers. It is about loans
:05:00. > :05:04.made him and small sized businesses. The problem with help to buy is
:05:05. > :05:08.what they want to do is to relate new house building. The structural
:05:08. > :05:15.problem in the housing market in the south-east is a lack of homes.
:05:16. > :05:19.They want to stimulate a new build essentially. In London and the
:05:19. > :05:27.south-east we have a particular problem. A lot of the new-build is
:05:27. > :05:35.being bought by foreign nationals. Apparently flaps are being bought
:05:35. > :05:40.up by Malaysians. 20% of new build in London goes to foreign buyers.
:05:40. > :05:47.You need to have a look at a whole set of issues. It is clear Mr cable
:05:47. > :05:51.is a little bit sceptical of this help to buy. He is obviously
:05:51. > :05:57.worried about the bubbly effect. He said it needs to be watched
:05:57. > :06:01.carefully and closely. A second stage comes in in the New Year.
:06:01. > :06:06.Given that the housing market, certainly in London, is looking
:06:06. > :06:11.pretty healthy and the economy is growing again. They may not go to
:06:11. > :06:17.the second stage. It is time to turn off the tap and the get these
:06:17. > :06:18.fiddly measures suggested this morning. They sound very
:06:18. > :06:24.complicated. The morning. They sound very
:06:24. > :06:35.one major tool to use, which is interest rates. They are not going
:06:35. > :06:40.to move on interest rates any time soon. Capital Taliban from the PR
:06:40. > :06:49.Ray and the Bank of England commit you could argue that restrictions
:06:49. > :06:51.on capital... Taliban?Decided that the Bank of England under Mervyn
:06:51. > :06:56.King, now departed, and Andrew the Bank of England under Mervyn
:06:56. > :06:59.Bailey, the new regulator, were particularly concerned that banks
:06:59. > :07:05.were not being asked to hold enough capital. They have increased their
:07:05. > :07:13.amount of capital. They are known in the city as the capital Taliban.
:07:13. > :07:22.That is like the economics of Robert Mugabe. We will not dwell on
:07:22. > :07:25.that! Now it's time for our daily quiz. The question for today is,
:07:25. > :07:27.who has indicated the Liberal Democrats should consider ditching
:07:28. > :07:32.Nick Clegg before the 2015 general election? Was it... A) The
:07:32. > :07:33.listeners of his radio show, b) Vince Cable, c) Matthew Oakeshott,
:07:33. > :07:45.d) David Cameron? At the end of the show, Miranda and
:07:45. > :07:58.Iain will give us the correct answer. It is pretty clear who it
:07:58. > :08:02.is but you do know. We do know.It is like the first swallow in spring.
:08:02. > :08:05.If you had looked at any of the newspapers this week, and why would
:08:05. > :08:08.you bother when you can get your fix of political news here on the
:08:08. > :08:12.Daily Politics, you might have read ithas not been a great week for
:08:12. > :08:15.Labour and Ed Miliband. His march down to Bournemouth to bash the
:08:15. > :08:18.unions at the annual TUC meeting on Wednesday never quite materialised.
:08:18. > :08:21.Instead, the Labour leader was keen to show he was in tune with union
:08:21. > :08:25.members, by attacking the increasing use of so-called zero
:08:25. > :08:33.hour contracts. Here's a bit of what he had to say. We are going to
:08:33. > :08:38.change it by banning zero hours contracts that same workers have to
:08:38. > :08:41.be exclusively available for one employer. We are going to ban zero
:08:41. > :08:44.hours contracts that save employer. We are going to ban zero
:08:44. > :08:48.worker has to guarantee they will be available but they get no
:08:48. > :08:55.guarantee of work. And we're going to end zero hours contracts. People
:08:55. > :09:01.are actually doing regular hours but get a zero hours contract and
:09:01. > :09:06.not a regular contract. We will end the exploitation of zero hours
:09:06. > :09:08.contracts in this country. Ed Miliband there outlining Labour's
:09:08. > :09:13.position on zero hours contracts. But what exactly are zero hours
:09:13. > :09:16.contracts? Well, they allow employers to hire staff with no
:09:17. > :09:19.guarantee of work. In other words, employees only work as and when
:09:19. > :09:24.they are needed by employers, often at short notice, and are only paid
:09:24. > :09:27.for the hours they work. Sick pay is often not included, although
:09:27. > :09:34.holiday pay should be included, in line with working time regulations.
:09:34. > :09:38.There is some dispute over how many workers are on these contracts. The
:09:38. > :09:41.Office for National Statistics says it is around 250,000 workers, while
:09:41. > :09:44.the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development estimates
:09:44. > :09:50.that the real number is more than a million. A number of British
:09:50. > :09:51.companies use these contracts, including retailer Sports Direct,
:09:51. > :09:53.companies use these contracts, which employs 20,000
:09:53. > :09:58.companies use these contracts, zero hours. Pub chain JD
:09:58. > :09:59.Wetherspoon, Cineworld cinemas, a number of London councils - even
:09:59. > :10:10.Buckingham Palace uses them. Despite their widespread use in
:10:10. > :10:14.certain industries, the CIPD survey found only 14% of employees on zero
:10:14. > :10:20.hours said their company failed to provide them with sufficient hours
:10:20. > :10:23.to have a basic standard of living. But Labour and some union groups
:10:23. > :10:31.argue their use is on the rise and they do not offer enough financial
:10:31. > :10:34.stability and security for workers. I am joined now by Mark Beatson,
:10:34. > :10:36.chief economist from the Chartered Institute of Personnel and
:10:36. > :10:39.Development, which represents people working in recruitment and
:10:39. > :10:46.has carried out its own research on zero hours. These contracts are
:10:46. > :10:52.obviously popular with employers. Are they popular with employees?
:10:52. > :10:56.They will be popular with some employees. One of the features is
:10:56. > :11:01.that, in principle at least, they allow people to turn down the offer
:11:01. > :11:06.of work. That can suit people who want to work periodically. For
:11:06. > :11:12.example, a student might want to work 60 hours a one-week and then
:11:12. > :11:18.they might have an essay the next week and want to turn the work down.
:11:18. > :11:24.Are they on the rise? Probably. Our research did not look at the past
:11:24. > :11:28.Trans. The Office for National Statistics data said it has been
:11:28. > :11:33.increasing over the last five or six years. That is probably the
:11:34. > :11:39.case. Mr Miliband says he does not want to ban them outright but he
:11:39. > :11:45.wants to buy some kinds of contracts. Would that work? A lot
:11:45. > :11:49.depends on the detail. It is difficult to define what these
:11:49. > :11:55.practices are in terms of workable law. We need to look at regulation
:11:55. > :11:59.alongside other approaches. For example, greater transparency. MPs
:11:59. > :12:05.will be more aware of what they're letting themselves in for when they
:12:05. > :12:07.signed up for these contracts. With us now is the Labour Shadow
:12:08. > :12:09.Business Minister, Ian Murray, and Ruth Porter from the Institute of
:12:09. > :12:17.Business Minister, Ian Murray, and Economic Affairs.
:12:17. > :12:25.There are £250 a workers on these contracts. Only 14% of which say
:12:25. > :12:30.they would like to work more pounds. What is the problem? The ONS
:12:30. > :12:37.figures are believed to be slightly on the low side. Some people do not
:12:37. > :12:41.know they are on zero hours contracts. The 14% figure is
:12:41. > :12:47.interesting. Actually people can get more pounds and 10 to get more
:12:47. > :12:53.pounds. It is the insecurity that is a problem. -- tend to get. He
:12:53. > :12:57.have to look at how this is affecting job security. You would
:12:57. > :13:03.not ban contracts and a bright, would you? They work for some
:13:03. > :13:08.people. They work for students. They do work for various industries
:13:08. > :13:13.and Ferris people. It is the exploitation that needs to be dealt
:13:13. > :13:18.with. A problem is, if you were not going to ban them out right but you
:13:18. > :13:24.are going to start to ban some kinds, it will become very
:13:24. > :13:34.complicated to regulate, won't it? People need not to turn up to a
:13:34. > :13:44.place of work and be told there is no work incentive. It needs to be
:13:44. > :13:50.regulated. An employer needs to offer Howarth if they are asking
:13:50. > :13:57.you to go into work. -- ate offered you hours. What will you do? Give
:13:57. > :14:01.me a simple change in the law he would make. You would stop people
:14:01. > :14:09.having an exclusive contract with employers on 0 hours and -- on 0
:14:09. > :14:15.having an exclusive contract with hours less it is proven that is
:14:15. > :14:22.what is wanted. We have asked the ONS to provide figures about
:14:22. > :14:28.whether people want them. There are determining what the figures will
:14:28. > :14:32.be and we can take them forward. I think there seems quite reasonable.
:14:32. > :14:36.The need to look at the reality was that if we are talking about a
:14:36. > :14:39.situation where 14% of people on these contracts cannot get
:14:39. > :14:44.sufficient allowance, the answer to that is not to increase regulation
:14:44. > :14:48.on employers and make it tougher for businesses committed to curb
:14:48. > :14:57.what kind of conditions we can change in the economy to make more
:14:57. > :15:06.jobs. -- it make it tougher for businesses. You do not think they
:15:06. > :15:12.should intervene on these contracts. For some employers, it is a way of
:15:12. > :15:16.getting cheap labour, isn't it? Some employers need flexibility.
:15:16. > :15:22.That is a euphemism for cheap labour, isn't it? Flexibility is
:15:22. > :15:25.hugely important. The CBI Homs said their estimate is that over the
:15:25. > :15:32.course of the recession, if we had not hired a flexible labour market,
:15:32. > :15:35.which had seen an extra half a million people who would have been
:15:35. > :15:40.made unemployed. It is the really critical issue. I think it is a
:15:40. > :15:44.slightly lazy argument. I ran my own business before becoming an MP.
:15:44. > :15:47.I could have asked for two people on 0 as converts to turn up at 9
:15:47. > :15:54.o'clock in the morning and choose 10 or 12 people to work. That
:15:54. > :15:58.surely cannot be right. That is not the reality. If you have a small
:15:58. > :16:01.manufacturing plant and you need people with a specific skill said,
:16:01. > :16:06.manufacturing plant and you need it is not easy. It may simply be
:16:06. > :16:11.the reality that you do not know from month to month what to order
:16:11. > :16:15.book will look like. The dingy people on call on an exclusive
:16:15. > :16:20.basis with the skills. That works for high-end skilled manufacturing.
:16:21. > :16:25.He does not work at the lower end of the labour market. Low-skilled
:16:25. > :16:29.workers are being put on to these contracts. It is bad for employees
:16:29. > :16:33.and is ultimately bad for the employer. This is how the labour
:16:33. > :16:38.market is moving. They are looking towards freelancing. They are not
:16:38. > :16:46.seen the whole trend of 95, Monday to Friday, job for life. -- 9-5. In
:16:46. > :16:52.the retail sector, you know you're busy on a Saturday, perhaps a
:16:52. > :17:00.Thursday evening if you are late opening. We have seen JD Sports in
:17:01. > :17:06.your piece. I think 90% of the staff are on that. Quite a few
:17:06. > :17:11.Labour councils are on them as well. Some Labour councils have taken the
:17:12. > :17:18.lead and getting rid of these contracts. Some of the councils to
:17:18. > :17:26.have them. They must find some value in these contracts.
:17:26. > :17:34.We have to be careful we don't lump everybody into the contracts. They
:17:34. > :17:41.do work for some people. Lifeguards, supply teachers, to
:17:41. > :17:49.guides at the House of Commons. -- tour guides. They want that. It has
:17:49. > :17:51.to be something you want. The resolution foundation found that
:17:52. > :18:00.those on these kinds of contract averagely earn £9 per hour compared
:18:00. > :18:06.to £15 per hour for other workers. This is cheap Labour. That is a
:18:06. > :18:12.reflection of some of the sectors where they tend to be most common.
:18:12. > :18:16.Retail and the care sector. I'm not sure the average wage tells us much
:18:16. > :18:21.about it. It goes to the question of what kind of economy we have. That
:18:21. > :18:29.route point, the issue here is there are workers with more hours, what is
:18:29. > :18:32.Labour going to do to create more jobs of all different kinds in the
:18:32. > :18:40.economies of the people who are able and willing are able to find
:18:40. > :18:44.sufficient work? That is a big question. Save it for another day.
:18:44. > :18:49.Do not give it to any other programme. You can see why some of
:18:49. > :18:55.this could lead to exploitation but also why some people would want some
:18:55. > :19:00.kind of contract rather than none. Absolutely. There is an important
:19:00. > :19:02.question about the statistics. I would like to know how it affects
:19:02. > :19:11.young people in the workforce, a shop like JD Sports, they are going
:19:11. > :19:17.into their first jobs, perhaps they are not fully aware of what kind of
:19:17. > :19:22.contract they are getting. You are twice as likely to be young as those
:19:22. > :19:29.on average on a contract. There is another side of the argument. It is
:19:29. > :19:33.all leading to something better than being unemployed. The business
:19:33. > :19:42.Department has said it will look at this. It is very interesting that Ed
:19:42. > :19:46.Miliband promised to ban certain applications of this contract and
:19:46. > :19:50.not ban it out right. Quite clearly, the way we work is changing. We are
:19:50. > :19:52.not ban it out right. Quite clearly, not talking about turning up and not
:19:52. > :19:58.not ban it out right. Quite clearly, being implied. This was a classic Ed
:19:58. > :20:06.Miliband intervention, an interesting piece of analysis, but
:20:06. > :20:11.he doesn't really have a clear plan. This is a very deep, long-lasting,
:20:11. > :20:17.injuring problem. It is a consequence of globalisation driving
:20:17. > :20:21.down Labour costs, and this is a problem in the tax and benefit
:20:21. > :20:25.system, over many decades we have trained certain sectors to become
:20:25. > :20:30.reliant on cheap Labour with the expectation that the taxpayer will
:20:30. > :20:39.then top it up. Somehow, over the next decade, we have to unscramble
:20:39. > :20:44.those changes. My response would be a simpler, lower, flatter tax
:20:44. > :20:50.system, but that is easier to say than implement. I can understand why
:20:50. > :20:54.Labour want to look at this, but in the grand scheme of things it is not
:20:54. > :21:01.exactly going to set the heather on fire. This is very bad for the
:21:01. > :21:09.economy, consumer confidence. How can you create the jobs that people
:21:09. > :21:15.want when you cannot get this? The government are giving significant
:21:15. > :21:20.tax cuts to corporations while the taxpayer is subsidising wages. I
:21:20. > :21:23.will give you the final word. The Mac one positive thing that has come
:21:23. > :21:26.out of this being raised is more people are on these contracts are
:21:27. > :21:33.now realise they are on these contracts. There is evidence. I had
:21:33. > :21:39.better look at my contract. Hopefully this debate will have
:21:39. > :21:43.approved -- improve that. It has certainly educated me. It is not
:21:43. > :21:48.just the big parties in conference mode. The Green Party of England and
:21:48. > :21:55.Wales are about to go to the seaside today. They help minority control of
:21:55. > :22:01.the Council of the city they are meeting in and they have the
:22:01. > :22:06.country's only Green MP. He liked to tell us they are different. Living
:22:06. > :22:09.up to that principle has meant they seem to be doing some rather public
:22:09. > :22:21.falling out on Brighton City Council.
:22:22. > :22:29.The thing about visiting and living in Brighton is it is not a shy
:22:29. > :22:34.city. It is loud, determinate lead different, and it wants you to know
:22:34. > :22:41.it. -- determined to be different. That attitude has permeated the
:22:41. > :22:44.politics. It is a place of alternative lifestyles, alternative
:22:44. > :22:50.mindsets. The Green Party sum that up. When they came in two years
:22:50. > :22:53.ago, people thought they wanted something different. What has
:22:53. > :22:57.happened recently is certainly different. By principle, Green
:22:57. > :23:02.councillors are not whipped into voting for party policy. Councillors
:23:02. > :23:11.have had some very public arguments. Astonishingly, this whole
:23:11. > :23:18.thing comes down to fruit. The Greens are divided into watermelons
:23:18. > :23:25.and mangoes. Watermelons are read on the inside, socialist. Mangoes are
:23:25. > :23:29.yellow on the inside, more practical. But they need to work
:23:29. > :23:37.together. Here in Brighton, that mix has been more of a fruit salad.
:23:37. > :23:41.Examples include a strike green leader was arguing why the binmen
:23:41. > :23:47.were wrong and needed to get back to work, and his deputy was outside on
:23:47. > :23:52.the picket lines with the workers. The first Green MP was also publicly
:23:52. > :24:00.sympathetic to the binmen's cause. It was unfortunate. It was not the
:24:00. > :24:07.best message to be sending. The outcome is we are on course to have
:24:07. > :24:16.a fairer system of pay. Then the Green Party voted for a plan to do
:24:16. > :24:23.at the local area, it would have meant a tree would have been left.
:24:23. > :24:27.But then one of them change the mind -- their mind and led the campaign
:24:27. > :24:39.whilst their fiance led the protests from up the tree.
:24:39. > :24:47.Taxes and businesses have scoffed at the 20 mph speed limit that nobody
:24:47. > :24:52.in forces. Opponents have said the Greens have gone through the looking
:24:52. > :24:59.glass, especially when there was an idea that mediators might be brought
:24:59. > :25:02.in to get them back together. Mediation for political parties just
:25:02. > :25:12.does not happen. It is just bonkers. People said that. When you
:25:12. > :25:22.look at our record, we are effective. I accept the perception
:25:22. > :25:27.that this is less than helpful. The only way to know if they understood
:25:27. > :25:34.is when Bray Tony and is go to the polls in 2015. -- Brighton people.
:25:34. > :25:42.We can top to the former leader of the party, Caroline Lucas. Welcome
:25:42. > :25:45.back. I understand that the Green Party in Brighton who run the
:25:45. > :25:50.council have been falling out among themselves so much you had to
:25:50. > :25:58.consider mediators to sort out the party. Is that right? I think
:25:58. > :26:02.parties having differences of views is not specific to the Green Party.
:26:02. > :26:08.You have Labour with the rows over the unions or the conservative
:26:08. > :26:12.rebellion on Syria, Sarah Teather walking away from the Liberal
:26:12. > :26:17.Democrats. This is nothing new. What is new is when it happens, we look
:26:17. > :26:22.for help. Did you bring in mediators? I'm not sure if they have
:26:22. > :26:28.or not. I am not on the council. I know that is being discussed. You
:26:28. > :26:33.are the MP for the city. I imagine... If the party is so
:26:33. > :26:39.divided you need to bring in mediators... I really disagree with
:26:39. > :26:42.you. You would not be saying that if there were two people in a marriage
:26:42. > :26:46.trying to find their way through it and used mediators. It is
:26:46. > :26:51.interesting, the language that mediation is a dirty word. Imagine
:26:51. > :26:55.if Tony Blair and Gordon Brown had got some mediation a few years ago.
:26:55. > :27:02.We might have had a better country. I would not knock it. Are you a
:27:02. > :27:06.mango or a watermelon? I had a feeling you were going to ask me
:27:06. > :27:11.that. I do not want to identify myself as a piece of fruit. I will
:27:11. > :27:17.say that policies are more popular than your clip suggested. We have
:27:17. > :27:25.been the first council to say that we will not evict people on the
:27:25. > :27:27.basis of the bedroom tax. The counsellor is also reduced the
:27:27. > :27:34.differential between the highest and lowest paid. They have been bringing
:27:34. > :27:42.a living wage to Brighton and will the there is a lot of good news. How
:27:42. > :27:47.can you ended up on the picket line protesting against the council? --
:27:47. > :27:52.how come. There was one high-profile decision where the council was
:27:52. > :27:57.divided and the local party and the city was divided. That issue was one
:27:57. > :28:03.we inherited, from previous administrations who had not sorted
:28:03. > :28:07.out this situation. It was desperately difficult and of course
:28:07. > :28:13.there will be differences of views. You will have differences of views
:28:13. > :28:19.with Labour and the Tories. Here is the first green council in the
:28:19. > :28:23.country, it is a minority counsel, so it is more difficult than if you
:28:23. > :28:28.had a majority. They face a difficult dispute with rescues
:28:28. > :28:33.collectors. Lo and behold, they find their fellow Green MP for that city
:28:33. > :28:41.is on the picket line against them. It is not exactly a brotherly or
:28:41. > :28:46.sisterly organisation. The council was split on the issue. The party
:28:46. > :28:50.was split on the issue, the city was split on the issue. You are trying
:28:50. > :28:55.to make this into some symbol of division, but the decisions and
:28:55. > :29:01.divisions are unfortunately part of political life whichever party you
:29:01. > :29:10.are part of. How are your relations with the most powerful Green
:29:10. > :29:17.politician in the country, Jason Kitcat? Very good. You will see it
:29:17. > :29:24.as the conference on full because you will be glued to the television.
:29:24. > :29:30.You said 0-hour contracts have no place in the 21st century and should
:29:30. > :29:37.be banned but we learn Brighton Council has about 1000 people on
:29:37. > :29:42.0-hour contracts. There is a difference between the contract that
:29:42. > :29:46.mean you have to absolutely be on stand-by at any point, do not have
:29:46. > :29:51.the benefits of holidays and other provisions, but you are asking me
:29:51. > :29:55.about council issues. I would rather provisions, but you are asking me
:29:55. > :30:02.you ask me about Parliamentary issues. It is perfectly legitimate,
:30:02. > :30:07.since you have said this, and the one council in this country run by
:30:08. > :30:11.your party as 1000 casual workers who have no guarantee of shifts. --
:30:11. > :30:17.your party as 1000 casual workers as 1000. That is not the same thing.
:30:17. > :30:20.We need to be clearer about what we mean by this. There is a difference
:30:20. > :30:24.between people having a relationship with the council where they come in
:30:24. > :30:27.and they are perfectly able to take other jobs when they want them and
:30:27. > :30:31.the situation as we understand it which is when you absolutely have to
:30:31. > :30:35.be at beck and call and if you do not do it you are penalised and do
:30:35. > :30:40.not have any of the benefits that go along with it. Where does the Green
:30:40. > :30:48.Party go from here? You have one MP, one minority counsel, there is no
:30:48. > :30:53.sense that they either coming force in this country. You may struggle to
:30:53. > :31:02.hold onto what you have got. What you do? The European elections are
:31:02. > :31:09.coming up next year. They are the next big platform. There has been a
:31:09. > :31:13.poll published that put us at 12%. That means we have a really good
:31:13. > :31:18.chance of increasing the number of members of the European Parliament.
:31:19. > :31:24.We currently have two. We could look at as many as six. If we achieve
:31:24. > :31:29.that it is a really good springboard going forward. Many of the things we
:31:29. > :31:33.will be doing is basically showcasing the European policies and
:31:33. > :31:36.making sure people know very clearly that if they want a safer
:31:36. > :31:42.environment then vote Greens into the European Parliament. The problem
:31:42. > :31:46.with pinning hopes on a breakthrough in the European elections is you
:31:47. > :31:57.will certainly be overshadowed by UKIP. Since UKIP apparently are on
:31:57. > :32:01.track to win hands down you could say that if you were talking to
:32:01. > :32:08.anyone. I'm not sure that is the most significant issue. If we were
:32:08. > :32:16.to treble Arab MEPs that would be fantastic -- our MEPs. . There have
:32:16. > :32:19.been countries where the Greens are fantastic -- our MEPs. . There have
:32:19. > :32:27.on the mark, much more so than in Britain. Where would you identify
:32:27. > :32:41.where you can see a green movement to which the future belongs?
:32:41. > :32:48.We take huge inspiration from the Greens, certainly in Nordic
:32:48. > :32:54.countries. They have to critical things we do now have at home -
:32:54. > :33:03.state funding for political parties... In Germany, Angela
:33:03. > :33:10.Merkel is going to get the biggest vote in Germany. The Greens are
:33:10. > :33:19.doing incredibly well in Germany. Sweden is what I mentioned, not
:33:19. > :33:25.Norway. The you mentioned Scandinavia. Anyway, let's talk
:33:25. > :33:30.about Sweden in particular, where we are doing extremely well. Greens
:33:30. > :33:35.all over Europe a doing well. For me have a more fair electoral
:33:35. > :33:37.system, you will see that here. -- when we have. In the European
:33:37. > :33:44.elections with but over when we have. In the European
:33:44. > :33:49.votes. That should not be easily dismissed. -- we got. What message
:33:49. > :33:56.to want to come at the Brighton this weekend? The Green Party is
:33:56. > :34:02.the only party that is delivering. Come and join us. It is in your
:34:02. > :34:12.home Parliamentary Cancer it should be good fun for you. -- Council.
:34:12. > :34:16.Cast your minds back far enough and you might remember our next guest.
:34:16. > :34:18.He is the founder of UKIP and served as their first leader. Yes,
:34:19. > :34:22.that's right. It's Alan Sked. And now he has formed a new left of
:34:22. > :34:24.centre, anti-EU party called New Deal. As well as advocating
:34:25. > :34:27.Britain's exit from the EU, New Deal will pledge to renationalise
:34:28. > :34:30.the railways and scrap some of the coalition's benefit changes. But
:34:30. > :34:33.how does he feel about his old party now that it's doing so well
:34:33. > :34:36.electorally? He has described the UKIP led by Nigel Farage as anti-
:34:36. > :34:43.immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist. Strong words indeed. Here
:34:43. > :34:55.is Mr Sked unveiling UKIP's general election manifesto in 1997. We will
:34:55. > :35:01.be the rock in this Craik period of flux in British politics with other
:35:01. > :35:06.parties cracking and groaning and braking. We expect MPs to come
:35:06. > :35:08.swimming to us, believing in the policy of British independence and
:35:08. > :35:15.withdrawal from the European Union. policy of British independence and
:35:15. > :35:20.And Alan Sked joins us now. That was very embarrassing. I looked
:35:20. > :35:29.younger. That was a long-time ago. We all looked younger. That was in
:35:29. > :35:36.1997. What went wrong? What went wrong was that the party has gone
:35:36. > :35:45.into a bunker bonkers land. That is to coin a phrase. They want to be
:35:45. > :35:53.MEPs and take monies. Nigel Farage has claimed £2 million of expenses.
:35:53. > :35:58.2 million! That was in a debate with Denis MacShane. They did not
:35:58. > :36:02.do anything. A almost as big as a BBC pay-off. You will be looking
:36:02. > :36:09.forward to that. I would not get one of them. I am not stuff. I
:36:09. > :36:20.could go back and a zero hour contract. Is there room for two
:36:20. > :36:24.anti-EU parties? I hope so. I have this idea of having a pincer
:36:24. > :36:32.strategy of where by the first party I founded presses the
:36:32. > :36:38.Conservatives, per-second will pressure - smack of the second will
:36:38. > :36:47.press the Labour and Lib Dems. -- the second. UKIP is going to
:36:47. > :36:52.dominate this debate still. No, it is not. It might do well at the
:36:52. > :37:02.European elections but after that it is not doing well at will. It
:37:02. > :37:14.got 23% in the local elections. That was on a turnout of 70%. I do
:37:14. > :37:17.not want to talk about UKIP. It is not my party. Is it not because
:37:17. > :37:21.not want to talk about UKIP. It is you're trying to launch you kip of
:37:21. > :37:29.the left? Isn't it the case that people who want to leave Brussels,
:37:29. > :37:35.who are anti-European, tend - not always - they tend to be more right
:37:35. > :37:41.of centre and left of centre. The Labour Party has been staunchly
:37:41. > :37:46.anti- EU. Since I founded the party, I am approached by all sorts of
:37:46. > :37:52.people - young people. Mainly students. The average age of people
:37:52. > :37:55.working has been 25. They want out of the EU but have a sense of
:37:55. > :37:59.social justice. The other thing we are in politics for is to try to do
:37:59. > :38:10.something with the huge inequality that exists today in a our society.
:38:10. > :38:14.-- in our society. I think the bedroom tax is iniquitous and
:38:14. > :38:18.obscene and we would abolish it. How many candidates were you put up
:38:18. > :38:25.obscene and we would abolish it. at the European elections? -- will
:38:25. > :38:31.you put up? We are not contesting that. It is hypocritical. We
:38:31. > :38:37.thought you were the anti-party. We do not believe in European
:38:37. > :38:44.institutions. The anti-party is UKIP. We are not going to go down
:38:44. > :38:49.that road. We will boycott those. What about council elections? It
:38:49. > :38:54.depends how fast the party grows. We have been in existence for four
:38:54. > :38:58.days. You cannot give us some idea We have been in existence for four
:38:58. > :39:03.of how many parliamentary candidates you hope. As many as
:39:03. > :39:09.possible. Where is the money coming from? We do not have millionaire
:39:09. > :39:14.backers yet. I would love as many backers as possible. What we will
:39:14. > :39:21.probably do is try to follow the Obama campaign and to rip through
:39:21. > :39:32.social networks and donations. -- and do it through. We're setting up
:39:32. > :39:40.a website. What chance has he got - between none an zero? It reminds me
:39:40. > :39:46.of Monty Python's Life of Brian and the Popular Front of Judaea. Alan
:39:46. > :39:51.was a man ahead of his time. British politics is and has been
:39:51. > :39:59.fracturing and cities incredibly difficult for the two large parties
:39:59. > :40:07.- to ever get back to the mid- forties, 48, 49% vote they got in
:40:07. > :40:11.the 1950s. There is room for new parties, a new political ventures.
:40:11. > :40:17.I think it would be very tough. So much attention will be focused on
:40:17. > :40:21.UKIP. The media is desperate to see whether or not they are successful
:40:21. > :40:28.or whether they blow up spectacular early next year. You mentioned a
:40:28. > :40:32.figure of 6%. If Nigel Farage does get 6% in the next UK general-
:40:32. > :40:43.election, that is very significant. It is almost 2 million votes cast a
:40:43. > :40:50.body huge damage to David Cameron. What we are seeing - what we also
:40:50. > :40:56.saw was Alan decorin some of the things Caroline Lucas was saying
:40:56. > :41:08.about the bedroom tax and inequality. -- echoing. There is
:41:08. > :41:15.another threat and that is to do with the idea of an unequal society.
:41:16. > :41:23.It is a huge problem for the Government. We are moving towards
:41:23. > :41:29.economic recovery. What do you do to try to share the proceeds of
:41:29. > :41:42.growth? Will the new parties be able to start a genuine gap in the
:41:42. > :41:46.market? The new promise Labour Party has accepted the working
:41:46. > :41:51.plans of the Tory, Lib Dem government. The thing about
:41:51. > :41:57.inequality is the top 1% is seen to be getting richer and richer, the
:41:57. > :42:02.people at the bottom have zero contracts and unpaid internships.
:42:02. > :42:09.These were the issues for you as much as Europe? Yes.Do not go away
:42:09. > :42:13.yet. I have to read this and then you can go. You need to get the
:42:13. > :42:17.hang of this if you are coming back into politics. When the Royal Bank
:42:17. > :42:21.of Scotland collapsed in October 2008, it had to be bailed out by
:42:21. > :42:24.you, me, and all British taxpayers. And it played a leading role in
:42:24. > :42:30.taking the British economy into its deepest downturn since the 1920s.
:42:30. > :42:33.At the centre of it all was the pantomime banking villain himself,
:42:33. > :42:41.Fred Goodwin. In a new book, our guest, Iain
:42:41. > :42:50.Martin, tells the story of Fred the Shred and the collapse of RBS.
:42:50. > :42:51.We'll discuss it in a moment. First though, let's remind ourselves of
:42:52. > :42:54.We'll discuss it in a moment. First the trouble Fred got into in front
:42:54. > :43:04.of the Treasury Select Committee back in 2009. How much worse could
:43:04. > :43:12.it have been at RBS had he not been in charge? Well, I think I fully
:43:12. > :43:18.accept my responsibility in the matter. I would imagine there are
:43:18. > :43:23.others out there who think they are there but for the grace of God. It
:43:23. > :43:28.was a fact, all the more numbing, after a rights issue - right
:43:28. > :43:35.through to the middle of September - we were moving forward positively.
:43:35. > :43:43.It was post Leman Boots that confidence to -- post Lehman that
:43:43. > :43:49.confidence collapsed. There are lots of banking villains from that
:43:49. > :43:54.era. We have seen them parading in front of select committees in the
:43:54. > :44:00.House of Commons. It is the scale that Fred Goodwin operated. The
:44:00. > :44:04.reason I have focused on RBS particularly, there are other banks
:44:04. > :44:09.are in the brick, the reason I focused on him particularly is it
:44:09. > :44:12.was the biggest bank in the world. He said a want us to be bigger than
:44:13. > :44:18.was the biggest bank in the world. JPMorgan. They got their wish at
:44:18. > :44:22.precisely the wrong moment. They doubled in size. They went into the
:44:22. > :44:27.crisis as the biggest bank in the world. The explosion, when it
:44:27. > :44:33.happened, was obviously enormous. It cost the taxpayer 45 billion at
:44:33. > :44:35.least to rescue. Hundreds more billions in liquidity and ex Agger
:44:36. > :44:41.and played a major role in the billions in liquidity and ex Agger
:44:41. > :44:50.economic crisis that followed. -- in liquidity, etc, and played a
:44:50. > :44:54.major role. It is thought Fred Goodwin did not realise how bad
:44:54. > :44:59.things were until it was too late. That is a fair analysis. It is
:44:59. > :45:04.often forgotten he is not, and was not, a banker. He is an accountant.
:45:04. > :45:10.He did not going to banking until 1995 when he was poached. Within
:45:10. > :45:16.five years of that he was running RBS as see either. He has a mission,
:45:16. > :45:20.which is following on from his predecessor in Scotland to create
:45:20. > :45:26.the world's best bank, based in Edinburgh. It is a tiny Scottish
:45:26. > :45:32.institution and will grow to become a world-beating bank. Patters a
:45:32. > :45:37.perfectly respectable and admirable instinct. -- that is. It gets
:45:37. > :45:42.completely out of control. He is not a rogue trader. He is not one
:45:42. > :45:47.banker operating alone and try not to get caught. The crash that
:45:47. > :45:52.involved RBS was the biggest of the lot. What stunned me, I am not a
:45:52. > :45:57.financial journalist, I am a political journalist. In terms of
:45:57. > :46:00.the numbers, I think what is most interesting and what was missed at
:46:00. > :46:04.the time is the scale of what happened to the British banking
:46:04. > :46:08.system in terms of its expansion. In 1990, and Margaret Thatcher
:46:09. > :46:14.leaves office, the UK banking system, its total assets combined
:46:15. > :46:30.of all the clearing banks, 70% of GDP - a sum equivalent to that. AIG,
:46:30. > :46:37.30% of GDP. -- by 2005. He bought ABM Amro and the crash came. If the
:46:37. > :46:42.crash had not come, would he have survived with this incredible
:46:42. > :46:47.expansion? All we did have caught up with him? It would have caught
:46:47. > :46:53.up with him eventually cost of the crisis had already started. He
:46:53. > :46:59.still pushed ahead with it. It is about hubris and monument building.
:46:59. > :47:04.He was determined to be Barclays. He was very proud of RBS as an
:47:04. > :47:09.institution and would not be beaten. He had an opportunity to withdraw
:47:09. > :47:15.and did not - catastrophically. That decision, they did not realise,
:47:15. > :47:17.that doubled the size of the bank. What was the most surprising thing
:47:17. > :47:31.you discovered? There is no doubt for all the
:47:31. > :47:35.mistakes he made, he was the victim after words of a classic British
:47:35. > :47:42.establishment hit job, in which it suited a lot of people, regulators,
:47:42. > :47:48.auditors, politicians, to say that it was all about one guy and it was
:47:48. > :47:54.not. And they rounded on him as the scapegoat. Have you read the book? I
:47:54. > :47:57.have read some extracts. Who says politics is the only place where
:47:57. > :48:04.there are psychological flaws? Really extraordinary tics of his
:48:04. > :48:10.particular character, but it is a very good point. It is the culture
:48:10. > :48:15.of banking. When Prince William and Prince Harry were doing their stunt,
:48:15. > :48:19.it is all very jolly and hilarious but actually what happens to £250
:48:19. > :48:24.billion in one trade is not that funny as it affects the rest of us.
:48:24. > :48:35.billion in one trade is not that What do you think wins elections?
:48:35. > :48:39.Manifesto policies, good reviews on the Daily Politics, according to my
:48:39. > :48:43.next guess, the cancer is the none of the above. Jim Gilliam is an
:48:43. > :48:52.American software programmer who says he believes political campaigns
:48:52. > :48:53.need to harness social media. He says British politicians are
:48:53. > :49:49.learning from the states. Not just good chat on this show. Jim
:49:49. > :49:58.Gilliam joins us now. It seems to be the lesson of the Barack Obama
:49:58. > :50:04.campaign was that you needed lots of social media, you needed to use
:50:04. > :50:08.digital, but you needed boots on the ground as well. Is that true?
:50:08. > :50:14.Absolutely. Basically it helps you bring that together. Your software.
:50:14. > :50:19.It is about connecting the online and the off-line together. What the
:50:19. > :50:25.Barack Obama campaign did really effectively was it took the online
:50:26. > :50:29.energy, and they really helped all their supporters learn how to tell
:50:29. > :50:35.their own story and connect it to the campaign, what it was he wanted
:50:35. > :50:39.to do. Hosting parties and fundraisers locally, knocking on
:50:39. > :50:43.doors, it came down to people sharing their stories with each
:50:43. > :50:52.other. So they used the social media to educate the troops into how to
:50:52. > :50:55.present their candidate to voters? It is quite the opposite of message
:50:56. > :51:00.discipline, with everybody trying to say the same thing. What they are
:51:00. > :51:04.trying to do is in power they are supporters to talk about the
:51:04. > :51:10.campaign from their own personal stories. Everybody had a reason why
:51:10. > :51:12.they wanted health care. I connecting all that back and
:51:12. > :51:16.providing the tools and infrastructure, so that now you
:51:16. > :51:22.don't have to have a lot of resources, it can help everybody,
:51:22. > :51:31.any campaign that wants to organise people. Have you looked at the
:51:31. > :51:38.British political party websites? I try not to. They should be in the
:51:38. > :51:47.British Museum. They are in the dark ages. What is exciting for us is
:51:47. > :51:50.because the software has been so good, we have had a lot of pick-up.
:51:50. > :51:56.because the software has been so We are seeing large-scale
:51:56. > :52:01.roll-outs. We are doing training for conferences coming up. We will start
:52:01. > :52:09.to see that tide turned quickly. They have a long way to go, don't
:52:09. > :52:18.they? There is definitely elements of that. There is a lot of software
:52:18. > :52:25.around, lots of campaigning of this kind going on. What is different
:52:25. > :52:29.about yours? One big difference is we did not approach it as a
:52:29. > :52:34.consulting company, but a product company. We bring a Silicon Valley
:52:35. > :52:39.ethic. It is not about making it available to the top Senate
:52:39. > :52:43.campaigns, although it works. It is making it broadly accessible to
:52:43. > :52:50.everybody. As a result it is much easier to use. Did the Lib Dems not
:52:50. > :52:56.use a version of this? They have always been very good at motivating
:52:56. > :52:59.the ground troops. Knocking on doors, local organising. It is
:52:59. > :53:04.really important for them if they are going to hold those seats next
:53:04. > :53:08.time to get a handle on all these things that can help them retain
:53:08. > :53:13.that advantage, you have to have the right product to sell. It is very
:53:13. > :53:20.important they are on the ground organising. They speak about it all
:53:20. > :53:24.the time but why are British parties so useless about this? Everywhere
:53:24. > :53:35.else we are plugged into the digital age. There are iPads, twitter,
:53:35. > :53:40.everything else. Old-fashioned, lack of money. I think the community
:53:40. > :53:45.engagement side of it is positive. What I find Julius is a lot of this
:53:45. > :53:49.stuff, having been used so successfully in high finance,
:53:50. > :53:58.emphasis on computerisation, data mining, all these things when you
:53:58. > :54:02.transfer them into politics, there is a danger that the candidate does
:54:02. > :54:09.not need to think about ethics or judgement or ideas or arguments. You
:54:09. > :54:11.just mine all this information, use a cleverly and get your candidate
:54:11. > :54:18.just mine all this information, use over the line. -- use it cleverly.
:54:18. > :54:24.It was tried in high finance, it is now being extended into every area
:54:24. > :54:28.of our life. Are you going to any of the party conferences? We have staff
:54:28. > :54:32.at all of them but I am going to have to head home. You are lucky. I
:54:32. > :54:39.can believe you are doing that with your staff. -- I cannot believe. Now
:54:39. > :54:49.it is time to look at who has had a good week and who has shocker. --
:54:49. > :54:55.has had. There were no green shoots as the chancellor visited a building
:54:55. > :55:01.site to unveil his new catchphrase. Britain is turning a corner. No more
:55:01. > :55:10.Mr nice Maher at City Hall as Boris Johnson lost his temper. You lied to
:55:10. > :55:13.the people of London. Get stuffed. The coalition is selling off the
:55:13. > :55:19.Royal mail. The unions did not exactly give the stamp of approval.
:55:19. > :55:25.Speaking of unions, look at the rapturous reception they gave Ed
:55:25. > :55:30.Miliband. We have to have the courage to change. In Strasbourg,
:55:30. > :55:34.the president of the European commission warned that you respect
:55:34. > :55:37.ticks bring back war to the continent. -- Eurosceptics. Nigel
:55:38. > :55:43.Evans announced he was standing down. He says he will sit as an
:55:44. > :55:47.independent while he faces charges of sexual assault. This is clearly
:55:47. > :55:54.the most painful thing I have endeared in my life. -- injuried.
:55:55. > :56:01.Are you going to the party conferences? Absolutely. I am
:56:01. > :56:06.missing the Lib Dem conference. I have a rule not going to let them
:56:06. > :56:14.conferences. How could you say that? You will be going. I am. I would
:56:14. > :56:21.like to go to the others. I think what is going on in the Labour Party
:56:21. > :56:28.is really fascinating. We have a survey carried out on MPs attending
:56:28. > :56:32.the Tory conference, 59, 29 word definitely or probably not going. If
:56:32. > :56:38.they can be bothered, why should anybody else? The Tory conference
:56:38. > :56:43.has been hollowed out. It is too expensive for activists. It is very
:56:43. > :56:47.different from what it was 20 years ago. You do not feel you are
:56:47. > :56:53.encountering real activist or seeing the heart of the party. The Lib Dem
:56:53. > :56:59.conference I did go to was very different, to the credit. It felt
:56:59. > :57:11.like proper politics. It could be quite lively this year. C. We had a
:57:11. > :57:12.quiz at the start of the show when we asked, who was it who called for
:57:13. > :57:26.the Nick Clegg to be ditched? Miranda was clear who it was. It was
:57:26. > :57:35.Lord Oakeshott. He has got that on a loop, hasn't he? He has. It pops up
:57:35. > :57:41.every year at about this time. Can we agree that there is no chance of
:57:41. > :57:44.the Lib Dems ditching Nick Clegg? I think we can agree about that. There
:57:44. > :57:53.will be some heated conversations think we can agree about that. There
:57:53. > :57:56.about various policies. The irony is when the opposition should be
:57:56. > :58:00.soaring, it is interesting because of Ed Miliband's problems, the
:58:00. > :58:04.Labour conference. Nick Clegg is in a pretty good place. David Cameron
:58:05. > :58:09.Labour conference. Nick Clegg is in is resurgent. Ed Miliband has a lot
:58:09. > :58:15.of questions to answer. That is why you should be going to the Labour
:58:15. > :58:23.conference. Yes, but he did a damp squib of a speech. He could do
:58:23. > :58:29.better. Lets hope so. Last year he gave a good speech and he captured
:58:29. > :58:36.attention. What does he have to say now? If you don't go it will be live
:58:36. > :58:41.on the Daily Politics. That is it. Thank you to all my guests. I will
:58:41. > :58:49.be back on BBC One this Sunday for the Sunday politics. It is back. Not
:58:49. > :58:54.until 1:30pm. I will be speaking to Paddy Ashdown. We will have live
:58:54. > :59:00.coverage of Vince Cable's speech. Goodbye.