:00:43. > :00:49.That alone. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Gordon Brown's chief spin
:00:49. > :00:55.doctor reveals the dark arts that Brownites used to bring down there
:00:55. > :00:58.Blairite enemies. Revelations have been timed to cause maximum damage.
:00:58. > :01:01.They come on the eve of the Labour conference after Ed Miliband has had
:01:01. > :01:07.a miserable summer and Labour have slumped in the polls.
:01:07. > :01:11.It is Nigel Farage's turn to take to the stage as UKIP hold their
:01:11. > :01:15.conference. There are new policies but also negative headlines as the
:01:15. > :01:21.party comes under greater scrutiny. And never deprive a German of his
:01:21. > :01:31.sausage. How the humble wurst has become a big issue in Sunday's
:01:31. > :01:37.federal elections. That is coming up in the next hour.
:01:37. > :01:43.Public service broadcasting at its finest. With us for the duration,
:01:43. > :01:48.Hugo Rifkind of the Spectator and Carla Buzasi of the Huffington Post.
:01:48. > :01:54.Let us start, where? I know, Damian McBride. He was Gordon Brown's spin
:01:54. > :01:59.doctor at the Treasury and then at Number Ten before being forced to
:01:59. > :02:04.resign in disgrace in 2009 over e-mails discussing possible smear
:02:04. > :02:05.stories about Tory ministers. But he had done plenty of smearing on his
:02:05. > :02:11.own before that. In his book, had done plenty of smearing on his
:02:11. > :02:14.serialised in the Daily Mail today, he lays bare the dark arts he
:02:14. > :02:20.employed at the heart of Gordon Brown's political operation. He
:02:20. > :02:36.admits that he already had: Setting out to destroy any potential
:02:36. > :02:41.rival to Gordon Brown becoming Prime Minister. One rival was John Reid.
:02:41. > :02:45.Mr McBride says that he unearthed his black book of stories about John
:02:45. > :02:49.Reid from the 80s and the early 90s, and fed them to the press until
:02:49. > :02:54.John Reid announced that he would be resigning. At which point, Damian
:02:54. > :02:59.McBride was told that he could call off the dogs now. With another
:02:59. > :03:04.rival, Charles clerk, Esther McBride claims that he briefed from a
:03:04. > :03:07.confidential and restricted documents to orchestrate what looked
:03:07. > :03:16.like a briefing war. A junior minister, Ivan Lewis, stood up to
:03:16. > :03:19.this worrying to this -- stood up to this bullying from Mr McBride but he
:03:19. > :03:24.decided he was going to get an iron fist in return. He proceeded to leak
:03:24. > :03:25.a story to the press about Mr Lewis's supposed pestering of a
:03:26. > :03:41.female civil servant. He says: On whether Gordon Brown knew or
:03:41. > :03:53.approved of his behaviour, Damien McBride says:
:03:53. > :04:01.Joining us now is Lance Price, who worked at Number Ten on the other
:04:01. > :04:06.side, that is with Tony Blair. And in a moment, we will join Hilary
:04:06. > :04:12.Benn two. What did you make of this? In terms of the allegations, what is
:04:12. > :04:16.interesting is that Damian McBride has fessed up and said that he was
:04:16. > :04:20.doing this. We knew that this was going on. Most journalists in West
:04:20. > :04:24.Minister knew that it was going on because they were at the recipients
:04:24. > :04:29.of this stuff. But now we have it confirmed on the question is whether
:04:29. > :04:32.or not the Labour Party can know that it was in the past and we have
:04:32. > :04:36.learned our lessons. It was a terrible period that damaged
:04:36. > :04:40.everybody and politics has changed. He says he was sucked in like a
:04:40. > :04:47.concubine at an or G. Did that happen to you? Did that happen at
:04:47. > :04:54.Number Ten? I think it is a metaphor. There was bitterness on
:04:54. > :04:57.both sides but it was not six of one and half a dozen of the other.
:04:57. > :05:02.Although people are reluctant to believe it, the fact is that Tony
:05:02. > :05:08.Blair had less reason to indulge in this because he had already got the
:05:08. > :05:13.job. He was the Prime Minister. And he had Alistair Campbell doing his
:05:13. > :05:21.work. But he did not get up to this kind of stuff. Let's go to Hilary
:05:21. > :05:28.Benn, in our Leeds studio. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Good
:05:28. > :05:34.afternoon. It turns out that it was Labour who were the nasty party, not
:05:34. > :05:40.the Tories. If you are referring to Damian McBride's book, this is the
:05:40. > :05:44.past, and we have changed. We are a different party now, with a
:05:44. > :05:52.different leadership. Think this is a postscript on what happened
:05:52. > :05:56.before. It is not really relevant. How do we know that you have changed
:05:56. > :05:59.when Miliband and Ed Balls were at the heart of the project when this
:05:59. > :06:04.was going on? Whatever happened in the past happened in the past. Under
:06:04. > :06:09.Ed Miliband, we are a different party. Frankly, my constituents in
:06:09. > :06:11.Leeds, people looking forward to the Labour Party conference that is
:06:12. > :06:16.coming up, they are not interested in that. They want to know, giving
:06:16. > :06:21.the crisis that they are dealing with day in and day out, whose side
:06:21. > :06:24.are the major political parties on. And they think the dividing line in
:06:24. > :06:29.British politics is becoming very clear. We have a Prime Minister who
:06:29. > :06:33.thinks that tax cuts for the unions is the most important thing, while
:06:33. > :06:37.imposing increased costs on people on low incomes. And Ed Miliband is
:06:37. > :06:40.about helping the squeezed middle, ring back the 10p rate of tax,
:06:40. > :06:44.finding jobs for young people who are unemployed long-term. Those are
:06:44. > :06:52.the big issues and debates in British politics. I think voters
:06:52. > :06:56.want to know about the morality of the people that they are electing.
:06:56. > :07:00.And this is about a Prime Minister who employed Damian McBride, who
:07:00. > :07:05.constantly lectured us on his moral compass. And yet we see that under
:07:05. > :07:10.his watch, he unleashes the most terrible smears, not against the
:07:10. > :07:15.Tories, but against his own side. We have a right to know and discuss and
:07:15. > :07:18.talk about that when politicians posture about the moral positions. I
:07:18. > :07:25.talk about that when politicians am not interested in posturing. In
:07:25. > :07:29.the past, what has happened has been written about by just about
:07:29. > :07:35.everyone. It is only a few years ago, Hilary Benn. It is not Benjamin
:07:35. > :07:40.Disraeli. Some of what happened was pretty an edifying but it is a poor
:07:40. > :07:45.script on the past. We are looking for to the conference. --
:07:45. > :07:49.postscript. The concerns of the British people are not what you are
:07:49. > :07:54.getting excited about. It is about what is happening in their lives
:07:54. > :07:57.now. For 38 of the 39 months that David Cameron has been Prime
:07:57. > :08:02.Minister, wages have not gone up as much as prices. People are finding
:08:02. > :08:06.it very tough. What are they are longing to hear from political
:08:06. > :08:10.leaders is that this is how a future Labour government is going to help
:08:10. > :08:13.you. That is what we will be focusing on. I will come onto that
:08:13. > :08:18.in a minute but you keep saying the House changed. We have no evidence
:08:18. > :08:21.for that. It is the same gang running it, who were at the heart of
:08:21. > :08:28.this operation when Mr McBride was spreading his poison. And we now
:08:28. > :08:31.know that Ed Miliband was Gordon Brown's anointed successor. He is
:08:32. > :08:37.the one that he wanted. So why do we know that things have changed? How
:08:37. > :08:42.do we know that this sort of stuff, this amoral approach to your own
:08:42. > :08:47.side, is not still going on? For the simple reason that you read the same
:08:47. > :08:54.newspapers I've read. You do not find any of that in the last few
:08:54. > :08:58.years. -- Irene. Ed Miliband is a new leader and this is a new party.
:08:58. > :09:04.We have learned from the lessons of the past. The truth is, you know
:09:04. > :09:08.that to be the case as much as I do. Have you ever been briefed against
:09:08. > :09:13.by Damian McBride? Have no idea what he did in relation to me. And I am
:09:14. > :09:18.not interested. -- I have no idea. At the time, I was getting on with
:09:19. > :09:23.my job, which is what ministers do. What's the shadow cabinet is focused
:09:23. > :09:28.on now is what will we do to help the country recover. I'll understand
:09:28. > :09:34.entirely why you want to ask these questions because some people get
:09:34. > :09:40.very excited about this, what is the past and not about the politics of
:09:41. > :09:43.the future. -- but it is the past. Excited is the wrong word. Express
:09:43. > :09:47.than dismayed that this could be happening at the heart of our
:09:47. > :09:53.politics, among people who we are paying to run the country. Our tax
:09:53. > :09:59.dollars pay these people's salaries. Instead of using it to make a better
:09:59. > :10:05.country, they use it to rubbish their own side. Before I come onto
:10:05. > :10:10.the conference next week, are we seriously expected to believe that
:10:10. > :10:24.neither Mr Brown, nor Mr Miliband, nor Mr Ed Balls new that any of this
:10:24. > :10:28.was going on? -- knew. As they understand it, that is what Damian
:10:28. > :10:36.McBride says. In the end, you lost his job. -- as I understand it. But
:10:36. > :10:40.that was a long time ago. He only lost it because he was rumbled. He
:10:40. > :10:45.could have carried on. He wanted to do to the Tories what he had been
:10:45. > :10:49.doing to his own side for years. This could not come at a worse time
:10:49. > :10:53.for you. Indeed, the run-up to the conference is a shambles. The
:10:53. > :10:57.opinion poll ratings have collapsed, you are barely ahead of the Tories
:10:57. > :11:02.now. Despite this squeeze on living standards. Only 2% of the country
:11:02. > :11:08.regard Ed Miliband as a natural leader. And now we have all this
:11:08. > :11:12.stuff dragged up from the past to remind us what you were like in
:11:12. > :11:25.power. It is hard to think of a grim backdrop for the conference. --
:11:25. > :11:31.grimmer. At you what is -- I tell you what is grim. Life for ordinary
:11:31. > :11:37.people. That is what is grim. People are going to be asking themselves
:11:37. > :11:40.the question, insofar as they follow the details of party conferences,
:11:40. > :11:44.they will be saying to themselves, which party leader or government
:11:44. > :11:51.that we lacked in 2015 is going to be on our side. That is the
:11:51. > :11:55.fundamental choice. The Prime Minister, the coalition, has shot
:11:55. > :11:59.itself to be on the side of the few also honestly, you could not ask for
:11:59. > :12:05.better example than the decision to cut taxes for millionaires and those
:12:05. > :12:13.who are most well-off. But they are still paying more tax in the 13
:12:13. > :12:16.years -- than in the 13 years you were in power. They are paying 45%,
:12:16. > :12:24.more than when you were in government. That is not correct. We
:12:24. > :12:28.introduced the 50p tax rate. In the final three weeks of the government.
:12:28. > :12:33.It is ridiculous. In the final three weeks. it is a fact. The reason we
:12:33. > :12:36.did that is because of the state of the economy. If you believe that
:12:36. > :12:40.those with the broadest shoulders could bear the biggest burden, as
:12:41. > :12:44.the Prime Minister claims, well, we believe that and that is why we
:12:44. > :12:48.introduced that tax rate. And he comes in and he says, given what is
:12:48. > :12:52.going on, the most important thing for the budget in April is that we
:12:52. > :12:55.are going to cut that top rate of tax. And what are we talking about?
:12:55. > :13:03.Reintroducing the 10p tax rate, hopping young people, the long-term
:13:03. > :13:08.unemployed, get a job, helping with energy prices. -- helping young
:13:08. > :13:13.people. And think it is on those issues that people will make their
:13:13. > :13:17.judgement at the next election. It is interesting that you want a tax
:13:17. > :13:21.on people who are working hard, who are adding to the wealth of the
:13:21. > :13:24.nation and jobs. You want to take 50% of their income away, but people
:13:24. > :13:28.nation and jobs. You want to take like you, who are wealthy because
:13:28. > :13:33.you have got lots of wealthy assets, you do not pay the 50p tax rate. And
:13:33. > :13:38.you are not creating jobs. And you are not adding to the wealth of the
:13:38. > :13:43.nation. Is that there? I am not sure what your point is. -- is that
:13:43. > :13:48.fair. In government, we felt that the 50p tax rate was the thing to
:13:48. > :13:52.do. We opposed the decision that the government took to cut that tax
:13:52. > :13:57.rate, as they did in April. At a time when lots and lots of other
:13:57. > :14:00.people, working very hard, contributed to the economy, are
:14:00. > :14:06.themselves being squeezed. -- contributing to. That is a sign of
:14:07. > :14:10.the government's values. The fact that we say we would do things
:14:10. > :14:16.differently is a clear difference. My final question, the recovery is
:14:16. > :14:20.barely underway. As you say, lots of people have yet to feel it. Yet
:14:20. > :14:26.already the Tories are neck and neck with you in the polls. What happens
:14:26. > :14:33.when, as the OECD is predicting, the economy is heading for 3% growth?
:14:33. > :14:38.What happens to poll ratings then? The poll that matters is the next
:14:38. > :14:48.election. I have never heard that phrase before(!) The thing to do is
:14:48. > :14:53.what Ed Miliband is doing, which is to set out what it is we believe in.
:14:53. > :14:56.And we are the party that is concerned about the squeeze on
:14:56. > :15:00.living standards. The question is, how is the recovery going to be
:15:00. > :15:04.shared? Are we going to learn the lessons from what happened over the
:15:04. > :15:07.last 20 or 30 years? Ed Miliband has shown that he is the leader who
:15:07. > :15:11.understands that and you will see that very clearly in what he has to
:15:11. > :15:13.say next week and in the debates that we shall have at the
:15:13. > :15:23.conference, which I'm looking forward to. I think of nothing else.
:15:23. > :15:30.It is keeping me awake at night with excitement(!) Get some rest. The
:15:30. > :15:32.giver joining us. -- thank you for joining us. What are the
:15:32. > :15:39.applications, the political fallout of these revelations?
:15:39. > :15:47.It makes the general population not trust politicians. They are worrying
:15:48. > :15:54.journalists are being spoon-fed by spin doctors, no analysis is going
:15:54. > :15:57.on. So, who do you trust? It is a precarious position.
:15:57. > :16:06.When we reported these sorts of things, not in that detail, when we
:16:06. > :16:10.reported that the Tony Blair-Gordon Brown relationship was toxic, other
:16:10. > :16:22.than the voters, the Cabinet ministers, there was the claim that
:16:22. > :16:27.we were making it up. This book is fascinating. Most
:16:27. > :16:33.political memoirs are about settling scores. He has revealed all his
:16:34. > :16:41.crimes. Hilary Benn is right when he talked about this being in the past.
:16:41. > :16:52.The monster has one. All the targets have gone, Charles Clarke, John
:16:52. > :17:04.Reid, David Miliband... You have a Labour Party dominated by Brownites.
:17:04. > :17:08.To be fair to Alan Lewis, he is in the Shadow Cabinet. He is one of the
:17:08. > :17:16.survivors. What do you think? It surely beggars
:17:16. > :17:21.belief that Mr Brown didn't know this was going on. Gordon Brown was
:17:21. > :17:26.an avid reader of newspapers. He would always ask where stories came
:17:26. > :17:33.from and it was patently obvious. Obvious to everybody. Gordon Brown
:17:33. > :17:44.cannot claim not to have known what was going on, frankly, neither can
:17:44. > :17:48.Ed Balls nor Ed Miliband. But, they knew what Damian McBride was up to
:17:48. > :17:50.Ed Balls nor Ed Miliband. But, they and what was going on with the
:17:50. > :17:56.Ed Balls nor Ed Miliband. But, they media. Whether they approved or not,
:17:56. > :18:02.they were complicit. Art, the party has changed. You agree with Hilary
:18:02. > :18:06.Benn? If you think about how divisive the leadership election
:18:06. > :18:12.was, that could have resulted in a rerun of the whole thing, and it
:18:12. > :18:17.hasn't. They have been less divided after that defeat.
:18:17. > :18:20.hasn't. They have been less divided It is always good to talk to you.
:18:20. > :18:25.Are you ready for the German election? That's right, Germans go
:18:25. > :18:30.to the polls on Sunday to decide whether to re-elect Frau Merkel as
:18:30. > :18:34.Chancellor. Haven't been following it all in Die Zeit or Der Spiegel?
:18:34. > :18:49.Don't worry, here's your cut out and keep guide.
:18:49. > :18:56.Germany, the most populous country in Europe, the richest and most
:18:56. > :18:59.powerful. It has ? parts of Europe and is essential to driving it out
:18:59. > :19:04.of recession. That's why the election results matter a lot.
:19:04. > :19:10.Angela Merkel has been at the helm for eight years and wants another
:19:10. > :19:14.go. In that time, the economy has boomed, unemployment has tumbled,
:19:14. > :19:18.Germany has become a magnet for job seekers. Opponents say the
:19:18. > :19:22.Chancellor is reaping the benefits of tough labour reforms brought in
:19:22. > :19:27.before she even came to power. Now, she is imposing those same reforms
:19:27. > :19:33.on other countries, despite in parts of Europe where she is blamed for
:19:33. > :19:37.austerity. But admired by many Germans largely for the same reason,
:19:37. > :19:42.which is why the polls say she will win again. Except it is not that
:19:42. > :19:49.simple, German politics is about consensus, and Angela Merkel's
:19:49. > :19:51.conservative Democrats will need a Conservative partner. She has
:19:51. > :19:58.conservative Democrats will need a already been through a couple. That
:19:58. > :20:03.coalition didn't get on. Then the liberal free Democrats, but again
:20:03. > :20:08.the attraction faded fast. So, who could it be this time? The Liberals
:20:08. > :20:11.again would be the closest match. Their boat has dropped so much they
:20:11. > :20:17.might not even make it into Parliament. If that fails, what
:20:17. > :20:21.about the social Democrats? They want a minimum wage, bad for
:20:21. > :20:26.productivity things Mrs Merkel. Order Green Party which was to take
:20:26. > :20:32.meat from the menu in work canteens one day a week. Too bossy, says the
:20:32. > :20:36.Chancellor. What they really want is to win enough votes to go into
:20:36. > :20:44.government together and push Angela Merkel off her perch.
:20:44. > :20:49.There you go, everything you need to know in time for the German election
:20:49. > :20:53.results which will get on Sunday. Joining us now from Berlin is Sudha
:20:53. > :21:03.David-Wilp, an expert at the think-tank the German Marshall Fund.
:21:03. > :21:08.It seems clear that Mrs Merkel is likely to stay as Chancellor. What
:21:08. > :21:13.we don't know yet is with whom she will be in coalition. What's the
:21:13. > :21:17.latest thinking? That is exactly right. As your
:21:17. > :21:23.commentator mentioned, there are probably two choices for Chancellor
:21:23. > :21:27.Merkel. She is leading in the polls against peer Steinbruck from the
:21:27. > :21:32.opposition SDP, but she has two form a coalition government after Sunday.
:21:33. > :21:38.The two choices are the FTP, the current government, but they may not
:21:38. > :21:45.garner enough of the vote to form a majority with Angela Merkel and her
:21:45. > :21:49.party. Or a grand coalition, a repeat of 2005.
:21:49. > :21:56.What is the attraction of German voters to Chancellor Merkel? She is,
:21:56. > :22:00.as I understand, Steinbruck, the Labour equivalent, hasn't really cut
:22:00. > :22:04.through in this election. Mrs Merkel is the dominant figure in German
:22:04. > :22:08.politics. Why? I think you are absolutely right,
:22:08. > :22:13.the dominant figure in German politics and also in Europe, very
:22:13. > :22:19.well admired across the Atlantic in the united states for example. She
:22:19. > :22:25.just gives off this aura of calm and Germany is also doing very well,
:22:25. > :22:29.compared to its neighbours. When you look at economic indicators. Germany
:22:29. > :22:34.is looking the best it has been in 20 years in terms of unemployment,
:22:34. > :22:40.for example. So... We seem to have lost our
:22:40. > :22:47.picture there from Germany. We are back. I am sorry, we lost you a
:22:47. > :22:49.little there. A number of decisions... We are glad we have got
:22:49. > :22:55.little there. A number of you back. A number of decisions have
:22:55. > :22:59.been put on hold this election, decisions which will affect Germany
:22:59. > :23:05.and the rest of Europe. Assuming, in some form, Mrs Merkel remains
:23:05. > :23:10.Chancellor, what happens after that? Yes, like any election, this
:23:10. > :23:16.campaign has been about domestic issues. For example, minimum wage,
:23:16. > :23:22.childcare opportunities, pension plans. Suddenly, the world is asking
:23:22. > :23:32.about the Euro crisis and Germany's role in the middle east.
:23:32. > :23:37.I am sorry, we seem to have some trouble with that line in Berlin.
:23:37. > :23:41.I'm afraid we seem to have lost it all together which is disappointing,
:23:41. > :23:48.such an interesting election taking place in Germany. And it will have
:23:48. > :23:53.implications for us. If Mrs Merkel forms a collision with the Free
:23:53. > :23:58.Democrats, they are a little bit more Eurosceptic. If she forms it
:23:58. > :24:04.with the social Democrats, they are even more pro-European than Mrs
:24:04. > :24:06.Merkel and her Christian Democrats. David Cameron is desperately hoping
:24:06. > :24:12.it is the first coalition. She has David Cameron is desperately hoping
:24:12. > :24:17.already hinted that she is in the market to talk about devolving some
:24:17. > :24:22.powers that the EU has taken, this is what David Cameron wants, what
:24:22. > :24:26.UKIP once, and does seem to be what the population as a whole head is
:24:26. > :24:34.keen on having in a referendum. Lots of people think this.
:24:34. > :24:36.A terribly dull campaign, probably the consequence of a rich and
:24:36. > :24:43.prosperous largely satisfied country.
:24:43. > :24:49.It all boils down ultimately to what the German vision of Europe turns
:24:49. > :24:53.out to be. Merkel 's judgement by the desire to preserve the European
:24:53. > :24:58.Union. Whether that means... She has talked about giving some powers
:24:58. > :25:03.back. It may be Germany finally needs to embrace a looser union.
:25:03. > :25:09.There are indications that is the road she would like to go down. If
:25:09. > :25:15.the coalitions with the CSU and Free Democrats, the free-market party,
:25:15. > :25:20.she may well be able to accommodate. But, if she has two form a grand
:25:20. > :25:24.coalition with the social Democrats, which you can't rule out, if the
:25:24. > :25:26.Free Democrats don't get any seats, the social Democrats will not let
:25:26. > :25:31.her do that. the social Democrats will not let
:25:31. > :25:38.The current thought in Germany is changing a lot. Germany is becoming
:25:38. > :25:41.more sceptical of free movement. And the bruising experience of a
:25:41. > :25:48.financial crisis, the German commitment to the Euro. German money
:25:48. > :25:57.going everywhere else. A Eurosceptic pushing for a government means and
:25:57. > :26:01.easier selling point. There is a Eurosceptic party. The
:26:01. > :26:09.German UKIP. Although it is rather different from UKIP.
:26:09. > :26:15.For me, I think it is important we have a woman leading the country. In
:26:15. > :26:18.this day and age, the fact we have only one household female name is
:26:18. > :26:25.leading a nation, for that reason alone. I think the Norwegians have a
:26:25. > :26:30.female Prime Minister. I couldn't tell you the name. We will get to
:26:30. > :26:34.know her. After the Lib Dems, and before
:26:34. > :26:37.Labour head to Brighton, UKIP are in London this weekend for their
:26:37. > :26:41.conference. Just months shy of Euro elections, they hope to come first
:26:41. > :26:45.in and, on the back of good local election results, they are in good
:26:45. > :26:49.mood. In a moment, we'll bring highlights of party leader Nigel
:26:49. > :26:53.Farage's conference speech. But a summer of having to defend some
:26:53. > :26:56.members, and expel others, has taken some wind from their sails, and a
:26:56. > :27:01.number of UKIPers have told this programme there's a distinct sense
:27:01. > :27:04.of "where next?" For the party. As they celebrate 20 years in
:27:04. > :27:20.existence, Giles Dilnot has sent them a birthday message.
:27:20. > :27:27.Well, well, well, I UKIP, 20 years old. A lot to celebrate,
:27:27. > :27:34.particularly when you think how it all started.
:27:34. > :27:37.The 1990s were tough, is small party considered little more than a
:27:37. > :27:43.pressure group, with very few, well, one rising star, and the look
:27:43. > :27:48.and sound of parameters on parade. In political terms, toddlers who
:27:48. > :27:53.fell down, had tantrums and had embarrassing relatives. But now...
:27:53. > :27:56.You have become grown-ups in a grown-up world playing grown-up
:27:56. > :28:00.politics. There's a lot to be excited about, a lot to look forward
:28:00. > :28:04.to. Hoping to toast electoral victory in next year 's European
:28:04. > :28:09.elections, after decent poll ratings, local election success, a
:28:09. > :28:13.press pack keen to follow, a leader who seems like a bloke you can drink
:28:13. > :28:17.with, and conferences that don't look like parish hall jamborees.
:28:17. > :28:26.Just a little word from the wise. Like a lot of 20-year-olds, you
:28:26. > :28:28.still have some maturing to do, you are still a bit amateur and
:28:28. > :28:31.unprofessional. There are still some growing up to be done. Some will
:28:31. > :28:32.gather at this hotel and if you are reflecting the leadership needs to
:28:32. > :28:41.gather at this hotel and if you are change the party further. Be less
:28:41. > :28:49.dictatorial, allow internal transparency, get rid of the last
:28:49. > :28:51.vestiges of amateurism. Loyal bonuses -- voices accept that.
:28:51. > :28:57.It will take some time, because, if bonuses -- voices accept that.
:28:57. > :29:02.you imagine yourself like a small or medium-sized company, we have grown
:29:02. > :29:08.tremendously, our market share has increased, our membership. Now you
:29:08. > :29:11.have membership and management used to the old ways. You can start along
:29:11. > :29:19.whether you will gain more market share. I think there are those in
:29:19. > :29:24.the party who recognised that. Those who do not. There are tensions which
:29:24. > :29:28.are accepted in all political parties. Eventually they will
:29:28. > :29:33.dissipate as we see that we have got to look to the future. What a number
:29:33. > :29:38.of party members want is open debate about future policy in areas UKIP
:29:38. > :29:42.has ignored. To that end, they have produced a policy discussion
:29:42. > :29:49.document. In producing this pamphlet of a UKIP vision, the idea is to
:29:49. > :29:54.give alternative voices that chance to push out policy. And I hope what
:29:54. > :29:59.it will do is to start to excite the membership across the party to start
:29:59. > :30:05.writing in to ourselves and give us more ideas. In that way we will
:30:05. > :30:08.become a more radical party with radical ideas but again with other
:30:08. > :30:13.voices out there representing different parts of the party.
:30:13. > :30:17.Otherwise the public will seek as remaining as a 20-year-old party.
:30:17. > :30:22.Having rattled the grown-up cages, that 20-year-old is also getting a
:30:23. > :30:24.kicking from the big boys. How UKIP handles that may determine how it
:30:24. > :30:30.makes it. Joining us now from Birmingham is
:30:30. > :30:33.Mike Nattrass who was a UKIP MEP but left the party and now sits in the
:30:33. > :30:41.European Parliament as an independent.
:30:41. > :30:45.Mike, what is it about UKIP that every now and then you will keep
:30:45. > :30:50.leaving the party and forming your own one-man band?
:30:50. > :30:56.I am not a one-man band, I am sitting in the European Parliament.
:30:56. > :31:02.For other MEPs left before I did. As you will know. That is my point.
:31:02. > :31:07.Including the chairman who wrote the manifesto and got no credit for it.
:31:07. > :31:13.I am a previous chairman and previous deputy leader. It's about
:31:13. > :31:19.control, excessive control. We need democracy in a party. More than one
:31:19. > :31:23.person steering policy. But also, we need fairness. The way the
:31:23. > :31:29.membership is now treated in my mind isn't fair. The way for example they
:31:29. > :31:33.are pretending they are having an election for European Parliament
:31:33. > :31:35.candidates is just not true actually. The whole thing is
:31:35. > :31:50.gerrymandered. Lets face it, Nigel is a great front
:31:51. > :31:56.man. He thinks well on his feet and he is a great chap, but having said
:31:56. > :31:59.that, you cannot have a one-man party making all the rules. I'm not
:31:59. > :32:07.sure that Nigel is a good leader from that point of view. He is not
:32:07. > :32:10.fair. He likes to set around with his own people, drinking mates, just
:32:10. > :32:22.mates, and that is not how you run a party. Shooting mates? They go
:32:22. > :32:25.hunting and that sort of thing. You were deselected from UKIP as an
:32:25. > :32:31.incumbent MEP because you failed the tests that have been set out. What
:32:31. > :32:34.are these tests? It is nonsense because they did not fail. That is
:32:34. > :32:45.the excuse they give. The tests that I'd took were a hustings where we
:32:45. > :32:49.speak in front of the local members, and secondly, an interview that took
:32:49. > :32:53.place between three of them and one of me. As far as I am concerned, it
:32:53. > :33:01.was three headman. It was the chairman, a 22-year-old who reports
:33:01. > :33:04.to him, and a guy who sat at Nigel Farage's bedside after he had the
:33:05. > :33:09.aeroplane crash. All of these people have come to the party well after
:33:09. > :33:15.me. I have been there since the 1990s. They have no idea who like
:33:15. > :33:20.was. -- they had no idea who lie was. Why have been a hard-working
:33:20. > :33:24.MEP. Ask the local members. If the local members had had that vote, I
:33:24. > :33:30.would be top of the poll in the West Midlands. Shooting and headman. It
:33:30. > :33:34.sounds are dangerous interest rate. They are. I am sorry to phrase it
:33:34. > :33:43.like that. They must be doing something right because the Tory
:33:43. > :33:53.membership was 230,000 in 2005. UKIP has gone from 15,020 ten to 31,000
:33:53. > :33:56.now. -- 15,000 in 2010. I'm told that more people were UKIP
:33:56. > :33:59.conference and at the Lib Dem conference. I am not surprised
:33:59. > :34:06.because we have the right policies. I am not against the policies. I am
:34:06. > :34:10.against totalitarianism. Remember, under the previously dirt, we had
:34:10. > :34:14.the same number of MEPs. He did a good job for the party and Nigel
:34:14. > :34:21.took over. He has done very well but he should not get all of the glory.
:34:21. > :34:27.There's been a lot of work done to get where we are. I have had 1100
:34:27. > :34:32.press hit in the last 12 months. I have been indifferent 1100 times.
:34:32. > :34:37.Isn't it the case that all insurgent parties, on the left or the right,
:34:37. > :34:44.protest parties that are trying to become more than that, they all
:34:44. > :34:48.require a figure like Nigel Farage, and it is always built around a cult
:34:48. > :34:52.of the personality, isn't it? Most times, possibly. This is not a
:34:53. > :34:58.pressure group. We have policies with a different flavour. We want to
:34:58. > :35:01.trade with the world. We do not think that Europe can contain our
:35:01. > :35:05.economy and allow us to grow correctly. We need overseas markets.
:35:05. > :35:12.And we see that Europe is stopping that growth rather than helping it.
:35:12. > :35:16.UKIP has always said that arrived from day one. We do not want to be
:35:16. > :35:20.contained by Europe. -- right from day one. Instead Churchill said,
:35:20. > :35:22.give me the choice between Europe and the open sea and I will always
:35:22. > :35:27.choose the open sea. I think he was and the open sea and I will always
:35:27. > :35:35.head of the Navy at the time. -- Winston Churchill. And you have
:35:35. > :35:40.joined the English Democrats? I haven't. The English Democrats say
:35:40. > :35:45.that you were involved in the drafting of their press release
:35:45. > :35:50.announcing that you had joined the English Democrats. I was doing due
:35:50. > :35:54.diligence with that party. Various people were talking to me and one of
:35:54. > :35:57.them did that release. They asked me to look at it and I've corrected it
:35:57. > :36:03.because I thought it was too rambling and long. And now, it did
:36:03. > :36:07.say draft on it and it was not to be released, but it was released. And I
:36:07. > :36:10.had not finished doing due diligence. I was asking about the
:36:10. > :36:14.track records of some of their members and they still have not got
:36:14. > :36:19.that information. Let them get on with their own but I am not with
:36:19. > :36:23.them, thank you. But you might join? I am not joining. If you are
:36:23. > :36:29.helping to draft a press release that announces you are joining, you
:36:29. > :36:33.must be considering joining them! It was in preparation for me to join
:36:33. > :36:39.and the due diligence at not finished. As far as I'm concerned,
:36:39. > :36:43.it didn't. And that is it. Is that you have fallen out with them before
:36:43. > :36:47.you have joined? The press release was far too long and I thought we
:36:47. > :36:53.had to amend it. I've changed it to make sure it said draft. It was
:36:53. > :36:57.subject to due diligence. I get the feeling that you should just stay as
:36:57. > :37:04.a one-man band. Stay on your own. You have fallen out with UKIP and
:37:04. > :37:11.the endless Democrats. Stay on your own as the David Nattrass party. I
:37:11. > :37:16.have not followed with UKIP. They are good people. The giver joining
:37:16. > :37:25.us. We will hear a bit about Nigel Farage's speech in a moment. Give me
:37:25. > :37:31.your 32nd thoughts. The moral of the programme is the Independent, don't
:37:32. > :37:35.go into any party. I think this time last year, UKIP had one journalist
:37:35. > :37:43.at the conference. Now it is over 1200. -- over 100. But we are all
:37:43. > :37:46.talking about them and look at the airtime they are getting. Every
:37:46. > :37:54.paper is covering what are talking about. Does that translate to votes?
:37:54. > :37:59.It is unlikely. But the significance of UKIP is that they could, as the
:37:59. > :38:05.Ashcroft poll showed, cause mayhem without winning a single seat. The
:38:05. > :38:09.less people know about them, the more they want to vote for them. I
:38:09. > :38:11.am in chanted and amazed by the extent to which they reinforce their
:38:11. > :38:20.message, the idea that Europe is this stance place that rules over --
:38:20. > :38:23.distant place that rules over us. And then they let these people,
:38:23. > :38:29.making these huge salaries, who represent us. There is a strong
:38:29. > :38:32.temptation to sneer at the amateurism and provincialism of it.
:38:32. > :38:35.And we will see Nigel Farage doing his speech and we want to imagine
:38:35. > :38:40.that the audience is full of men in tin hats with spikes on them and
:38:40. > :38:42.monocles. Nothing drives people into their arms than the likes of me
:38:42. > :38:48.sitting in a studio sneering at them, so why try not to, but it is
:38:48. > :38:52.difficult. I think you just did. That is another 20 members they have
:38:52. > :38:57.got. While we're being on air, Nigel Farage been giving -- has been
:38:57. > :39:02.giving his keynote speech. Let's listen to him. We have been on the
:39:02. > :39:06.March four 20 long years. There have been many failures and many
:39:06. > :39:10.disappointments, many ups and downs. Lots of leaflets delivered. And over
:39:10. > :39:15.the years, many deposits lost. And, of course, we have been roundly
:39:15. > :39:21.abused and laughed that and mocked and derided. But despite that, over
:39:21. > :39:25.the last 18 months, something remarkable is happening. And we are
:39:25. > :39:39.now changing the face of British politics. 's -- by the end of this
:39:39. > :39:45.election, we will have the third-highest membership of any
:39:45. > :39:54.party in this country. Our opponents are appalled and the commentators
:39:54. > :39:59.are stunned and amazed. In eight months, we have the European
:39:59. > :40:08.elections and many council elections. We will be fielding sets
:40:08. > :40:10.of candidates in both. We intend to put up thousands of candidates for
:40:10. > :40:16.local elections with a big emphasis and a big push in London where the
:40:16. > :40:21.local seats are up for grabs. And I'm not going to take anything for
:40:21. > :40:26.granted. But I think we might do quite well next year. My ambition
:40:26. > :40:31.and conviction is that we can come first, across the United Kingdom, in
:40:31. > :40:40.those European elections, and cause an earthquake in British politics.
:40:40. > :40:43.When we launched this party, only 17% of the British people
:40:43. > :40:47.When we launched this party, only that we should leave the European
:40:47. > :40:52.Union. Today, that figure is 67%. The British social attitudes survey
:40:52. > :40:54.shows that Britain is moving in UKIP's direction. But it is not just
:40:54. > :40:58.doing that on the question of the UKIP's direction. But it is not just
:40:58. > :41:00.European Union, vital though that is. They are doing it on many areas
:41:00. > :41:04.European Union, vital though that of our national life. On welfare. It
:41:04. > :41:10.is clear that the benefits system should be there for the needy and
:41:10. > :41:17.not bear as a lifestyle choice. -- not there. On education, we are the
:41:17. > :41:21.only party that actually believes in social mobility. All the rest of
:41:21. > :41:28.them have effectively pulled the ladder up. From people from poor
:41:28. > :41:33.backgrounds in our big cities in particular. UKIP champion the idea
:41:33. > :41:47.that we need selective education and grammar schools. Once again, we are
:41:47. > :41:51.changing the debate. And, yes, on immigration, we have certainly
:41:51. > :41:57.changed the debate on immigration. This is a debate that, I think, is
:41:57. > :42:02.vital. It is the most important, biggest question facing our
:42:02. > :42:06.country, urgently. And it affects everything, the NHS, our broader
:42:06. > :42:13.economy, Primary School places, public services. And yet the
:42:13. > :42:16.establishment have done everything they can to close down debate on
:42:16. > :42:20.this issue and to decry anybody that dares to discuss the issue as being
:42:20. > :42:28.bad and racist. And we will not have dares to discuss the issue as being
:42:28. > :42:34.that. This issue must be debated. We have been here for 20 years. Some
:42:34. > :42:36.people keep asking, what is UKIP now? First, you are talking about
:42:36. > :42:39.the European question and then you talk about immigration and the
:42:39. > :42:48.grammar schools. I'm going to attempt to redefine what UKIP is.
:42:48. > :42:53.With this card. UKIP is a freethinking, egalitarian party,
:42:53. > :42:59.opposed to racism and extremism. UKIP is dedicated to liberty and
:42:59. > :43:02.equality under the law, and the aspirations of the British people.
:43:03. > :43:06.We will always act in the interests of the British nation, especially on
:43:06. > :43:10.immigration, employment, energy supply and fisheries. We know that
:43:10. > :43:15.only by leaving the European Union can we regain control of our
:43:15. > :43:21.borders, Parliament, democracy and our ability to trade freely with the
:43:21. > :43:24.fastest-growing economies in the world. A referendum to allow the
:43:24. > :43:29.country to decide this matter will create the greatest opportunity for
:43:29. > :43:40.national renewal in our lifetimes. That is my definition of UKIP. Nigel
:43:40. > :43:44.Farage, a few minutes ago. Norman Smith joins us. He was listening to
:43:44. > :43:50.the UKIP leader. Give us your impressions. Yellow macro it was
:43:50. > :43:53.interesting that apart from saying he expected UKIP to win the European
:43:53. > :43:57.elections, gave no predictions about getting any seats at Westminster.
:43:57. > :44:02.Instead, his pitch is that we are changing the face of British
:44:02. > :44:05.politics. He means that they might not win any seats but they are
:44:05. > :44:10.driving public opinion and they are driving the other parties to adopt
:44:10. > :44:16.policies which are more akin to their own. Obviously, on Europe, we
:44:16. > :44:21.have seen David Cameron promised a referendum in a few years and Nigel
:44:21. > :44:26.Farage saying there that UKIP would do the same before the next
:44:26. > :44:30.election. He said that UKIP were driving the debate that he was
:44:30. > :44:35.appalled by how right wing David Cameron and Nick Clegg were on
:44:35. > :44:39.immigration. And even on Syria. He suggested that because UKIP was
:44:39. > :44:42.opposed to intervention in Syria, that had intimidated some Tory MPs
:44:42. > :44:47.who he said were more frightened of UKIP voters than of the whips. In a
:44:48. > :44:50.way, suggesting that it was UKIP that resulted in David Cameron
:44:50. > :44:54.losing their vote in the Commons. His pitch now seems to be, don't
:44:55. > :44:59.inspect us to win many seats but look at the influence and impact
:44:59. > :45:03.that we can have. And is it true that there are more delegates at
:45:03. > :45:09.this conference than there were at the Lib Dems conference? Getting
:45:09. > :45:14.close to it. They are saying that there are around 1500 people here.
:45:14. > :45:20.It is certainly the biggest they have had. To be honest, they arrive
:45:20. > :45:21.on a roll. Why was struck that there was quite a lot of the speech
:45:22. > :45:25.devoted to Europe. You might say was quite a lot of the speech
:45:25. > :45:30.that is not a pricing but when we were told that one of the main aims
:45:30. > :45:32.of this conference was to flag up the diversity of policies they have
:45:32. > :45:38.on a range of issues, from the health service to housing to
:45:38. > :45:44.schools, still the core purpose of this party is to get out of Europe,
:45:44. > :45:48.which Nigel Farage believes will lead to a moment of national
:45:48. > :45:52.renewal. For all the other political windowdressing, which we have had
:45:52. > :45:56.around other policies, there is no getting away from it. What motivates
:45:56. > :46:05.people here, what they are totally about is getting out of Europe.
:46:05. > :46:12.Let's talk now to UKIP's deputy leader Paul Nuttall.
:46:13. > :46:19.Welcome to the Daily Politics, thanks for joining us. Tell me this,
:46:19. > :46:34.come the general election in 2015, What would be a good result for
:46:34. > :46:40.UKIP? We are still talking about this, it
:46:40. > :46:52.is all down to ourselves. We have to keep up the momentum, crucially, I
:46:52. > :46:57.think, is the 5000 seats up for election, if we can take seats,
:46:57. > :47:00.maybe we can replicate the Lib Dems and take seats in the general
:47:00. > :47:07.election from a base of local government.
:47:07. > :47:11.As things look at the moment, from the Ashcroft poll which came out
:47:11. > :47:17.earlier this week, in those seats where the Conservatives are a bit
:47:17. > :47:23.ahead of Labour, the main impact you would have is taking votes from the
:47:23. > :47:28.Tories and let Labour in, although you won't win any seats yourself.
:47:28. > :47:33.So, voting UKIP, but get Ed Miliband.
:47:33. > :47:46.Please don't fall into this Westminster bubble media chap. --
:47:46. > :47:50.trap. Look at our by-election results come in the North of
:47:50. > :47:57.England, we finish consistently second to Labour, polling as much as
:47:57. > :48:01.26% of the votes, taking a proportion from Labour, some from
:48:02. > :48:05.the Lib Dems. We are taking votes from people who have not voted in
:48:05. > :48:12.the past 20 years. You seem to have a permanent problem
:48:12. > :48:18.with some of your MEPs. Periodically, they seem to walk
:48:18. > :48:26.out. Is this because UKIP is really a one-man band, and Mr Farage has
:48:26. > :48:32.slightly dictatorial tendencies? No, basically, we have tightened up
:48:32. > :48:44.the process. I hope it is not a one-man band. Otherwise I might as
:48:44. > :48:48.well get back electioneering again. Look, we have tightened up our
:48:48. > :48:52.process this time around. We have gone through the most stringent
:48:52. > :49:00.test, probably of all the political parties, for our MEPs. If some have
:49:00. > :49:06.fallen by the wayside, that is hard luck. What we will do is, I think,
:49:06. > :49:09.we will send more MEPs back to Brussels next year on May 22 than
:49:09. > :49:14.any of the political parties put together. To ensure that, we have to
:49:15. > :49:19.get the process right. Is this a feature of all insurgent
:49:19. > :49:25.parties, you fall out with each other at some stage? You have just
:49:26. > :49:33.lost Mike Nattrass, then Nicky Sinclair who has founded her own
:49:33. > :49:42.party. And Marta Anderson, a leading UKIP light, she has joined the
:49:42. > :49:47.Tories. What is the story here? Hang on. The Conservatives lost one
:49:47. > :49:51.to the Lib Dems, we gained one from the Tories. People lose
:49:51. > :49:56.politicians, that happens. We are a young party, only 20 years old this
:49:56. > :50:00.week. Young parties go through growing pains. I can assure you
:50:00. > :50:04.now, next time it will be different, the people we get in the
:50:04. > :50:08.European Parliament next time around will be solid good people who will
:50:08. > :50:12.take the cause of wit -ish withdrawal forward and they won't be
:50:12. > :50:16.leaving UKIP. If it's still the case that getting
:50:16. > :50:27.out of the European Union is your raison d'etre chap, that you have
:50:27. > :50:33.other policies, but it -- you wouldn't exist otherwise?
:50:33. > :50:37.The party would not have been formed otherwise. UKIP was born to get us
:50:37. > :50:41.out of the European Union and we have been successful in driving
:50:41. > :50:45.public opinion. When the party was formed, only 60% of people believed
:50:46. > :50:53.Britain would be better outside the EU. It is now in the late 60s. We
:50:53. > :50:59.have been successful. We have to broaden our agenda. Talking earlier
:50:59. > :51:03.about the Ashcroft poll, there was another poll by the same noble Lord
:51:03. > :51:07.with people flocking to UKIP on another poll by the same noble Lord
:51:07. > :51:10.immigration and crime as well. You talked about giving great
:51:10. > :51:16.scrutiny to who would be standing for you but are you sure? If you
:51:16. > :51:20.were to scrutinise Nigel Farage you might not let him stand, given what
:51:20. > :51:26.seemed to be his hard right attitudes when he was at Dulwich
:51:26. > :51:33.public school? Andrew, come on, this is a nonstory.
:51:33. > :51:37.We are talking about what went on in his school days. If you listened to
:51:37. > :51:44.the headmaster and deputy head, they say something can piggy different
:51:44. > :51:48.than one far left teacher who has an axe to grind against Nigel. It's not
:51:48. > :51:55.really a story. If this is the best that the media can do, then, it is a
:51:55. > :52:01.pretty sorry state. So you can assure us today that you have purged
:52:01. > :52:11.your ranks of the hard right, racist, a liberal tendency, correct?
:52:11. > :52:18.-- illiberal. When I became chairman, the party
:52:18. > :52:22.had been infiltrated. We dealt with that. Since then, we have had a
:52:22. > :52:29.blanket ban on anybody who has ever been a member of a far right party.
:52:29. > :52:34.We are the only political party in this country with that land. The
:52:34. > :52:39.Labour Party has elected councillors who have crossed the floor from the
:52:39. > :52:44.BNP. We do not have a problem with the far right in our party.
:52:44. > :52:53.But you are overwhelmingly white, and strongly male. You are almost as
:52:53. > :52:58.white and male as the Lib Dems! I agree with you, I genuinely
:52:59. > :53:02.believe that UKIP needs to change that perception. I agree we are too
:53:02. > :53:07.white and middle-class and mail which is why I hope the list next
:53:07. > :53:11.time for the European elections includes a more eclectic bunch of
:53:11. > :53:15.people. If UKIP wants to move forward, we have to be
:53:15. > :53:20.representative of society as a whole. A final question.
:53:20. > :53:25.You have said to me before and again, that you are going to win the
:53:25. > :53:32.European elections next year and come far -- come first with most
:53:32. > :53:40.votes. Are you sure you are right to set the bar that high? It can only
:53:40. > :53:46.disappoint, can it not? Why not? It could become a
:53:46. > :53:52.self-fulfilling possibly -- prophecy. If Cameron doesn't bring
:53:52. > :53:58.forward a referendum and if the other parties do not offer a
:53:58. > :54:02.referendum, we will make next year the 20 14th European elections in
:54:02. > :54:12.referendum you never had. That is why we have a great opportunity of
:54:12. > :54:17.winning. Hugo, let me come to you. Mr Cameron
:54:18. > :54:23.doesn't seem to have a UKIP strategy yet, a way of dealing with UKIP,
:54:23. > :54:25.which is clearly a huge threat to him. It is difficult for him because
:54:25. > :54:30.which is clearly a huge threat to he does not know which angle to go
:54:30. > :54:41.at them from. UKIP say they are more than a Europe party. The issue of
:54:41. > :54:44.equal marriage, particularly older conservative voters have flocked to
:54:44. > :54:51.UKIP because they have so disliked that idea. Anyway, it shows the
:54:51. > :54:55.tension that UKIP has. You could almost call it a dishonesty, Nigel
:54:55. > :55:00.Farage saying they are a almost call it a dishonesty, Nigel
:55:00. > :55:05.liberty, was about the liberty to cross borders, for a man to marry a
:55:05. > :55:09.man. It is not liberty at all. A difficult thing for the Tories to
:55:09. > :55:13.fight against, particularly using rhetoric like that. A great many
:55:13. > :55:17.natural Tory voters would agree with UKIP.
:55:17. > :55:19.An interesting development in British politics.
:55:19. > :55:22.If the Lib Dem conference wasn't your thing, and you've tuned out
:55:22. > :55:34.from politics for the last seven days, here's the week in 60 seconds.
:55:34. > :55:40.It was Lib Dem conference week and whilst much of the talk was about
:55:40. > :55:43.whether Vince Cable were torn up to support the economic policy, Ed
:55:43. > :55:47.Davey was having problems with wind power. You have been marked by a
:55:47. > :56:01.Daily Politics poster. Nick Clegg try to prove there was
:56:01. > :56:05.such a thing as a free lunch, at least the schoolchildren. But after
:56:05. > :56:10.all that healthy fruit, he went and ruined it with a trip to the tuck
:56:10. > :56:15.shop. It was revealed MPs had made a string of complaints about the food
:56:15. > :56:19.in the House of Commons. Including raw fish, and an inadequate supply
:56:19. > :56:25.of vintage wine. David Cameron came out in favour of Spurs fans who want
:56:25. > :56:34.to carry on calling them the Yid army. And we learned that Eric
:56:34. > :56:42.Pickles has personalised ring phone -- ringtones.
:56:42. > :56:50.Let us not forget that there was a Lib Dem conference this week. It
:56:50. > :56:55.finished on Wednesday afternoon. How would you sum it up, how does Mr
:56:55. > :56:59.Clegg and his party come out? Nick Clegg came out of it pretty
:56:59. > :57:03.well, he sounded confident. Re-establishing who he is and what
:57:03. > :57:08.he stands for. The party overall, I don't think people were hugely
:57:08. > :57:16.interested. There wasn't a huge turnout of people. It almost doesn't
:57:16. > :57:22.matter what happens because they are going to be in a position of power
:57:22. > :57:32.at the time of the next election. If there is a hung parliament. And you
:57:32. > :57:39.are part of a growing consensus. You, I understand, writing Nick
:57:39. > :57:44.Clegg's diary for the newspaper? I am going to focus on Nick Clegg. I
:57:45. > :57:48.disagree. His speech reminded me of what John Major said Neil Kinnock,
:57:48. > :57:54.he doesn't know what he wants to stay so he has way of saying it.
:57:54. > :57:59.They are in a weird position, they can't do anything. The whole purpose
:57:59. > :58:02.of the Lib Dems being in this parliament is to show that coalition
:58:02. > :58:07.government can work. So they cannot do anything to destroy the
:58:07. > :58:12.coalition. Their major achievement will be to stay there so they can do
:58:12. > :58:23.it again. You can't bring it down by letting your principles get in the
:58:23. > :58:28.way. They do need to position themselves.
:58:28. > :58:34.Which is why he is saying he stuck up for...
:58:34. > :58:43.That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The one o'clock news is
:58:43. > :58:46.starting on BBC One. I'll be back on BBC One on Sunday with the Sunday
:58:46. > :58:49.Politics with Labour's Rachel Reeves, Conservative Party chairman
:58:49. > :58:51.Grant Shapps, and the results of an exclusive survey of Labour
:58:51. > :58:54.councillors. Do join me then. Bye-bye.