:00:39. > :00:44.Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics Conference Special.
:00:44. > :00:49.It's Ed Miliband's big day in Brighton, as he prepares to make his
:00:49. > :00:51.keynote speech to party members. We'll bring you that live from 2.30
:00:51. > :01:07.this afternoon. We're told he'll make big policy
:01:07. > :01:10.announcements on housing and tax. He'll also unveil a book he's
:01:10. > :01:13.written, spelling out his approach to politics.
:01:13. > :01:13.In the next hour, we'll talk to Labour frontbenchers Chuka Umunna
:01:13. > :01:17.and Sadiq Khan. And discuss whether Labour frontbenchers Chuka Umunna
:01:17. > :01:23.the public are listening to what the Labour leader has got to say. Can I
:01:23. > :01:25.just talk to you about Damian McBride? Mr Brown?
:01:25. > :01:29.And Gordon Brown won't discuss him, but we've got him here in the
:01:29. > :01:30.studio. We'll talk to Mr Brown's former spin doctor Damian McBride
:01:30. > :01:45.about his shadowy past. With this for the duration, Baroness
:01:45. > :01:57.Prosser, former president of the TUC and former deputy general secretary
:01:57. > :02:05.of the transport and General workers union. I had voted against the
:02:05. > :02:17.merger and by the time we joined, the AWB you had merged itself with
:02:17. > :02:23.other unions. With the electricians. I'm an ex-Labour correspondence.
:02:23. > :02:36.Welcome. I enjoyed that. Let's start by discussing Ed Miliband 's
:02:36. > :02:39.relationship with the unions. This morning the Labour Party Treasurer
:02:39. > :02:42.told conference of her concerns about Mr Miliband's plans to change
:02:42. > :02:45.the way union members are affiliated with the party. As your party
:02:45. > :02:49.treasurer, hope everybody bears in mind that everybody needs to stick
:02:49. > :02:53.to the finance strategy. While finances are not the reason we are
:02:53. > :02:58.in politics, we all know we can't get the change we want without
:02:58. > :03:05.finances. As your elected treasurer, I will ensure that the commitment in
:03:05. > :03:09.the interim report to manage the organisational and financial
:03:09. > :03:13.implications is carried through. We cannot and must not jeopardise the
:03:13. > :03:19.hard-won financial stability of this party. When the treasurer is worried
:03:19. > :03:23.about the financial stability you have to take it seriously, don't
:03:23. > :03:30.you? You do because the party can't operate it hasn't money coming in. I
:03:30. > :03:33.know the feeling. Indeed. It's written large with a political
:03:33. > :03:48.parties, the amount of money required. This is a big issue but
:03:48. > :03:50.there needs to be a discussion. We were just jesting about how this
:03:50. > :03:58.there needs to be a discussion. We union merged with this union and
:03:58. > :04:01.that union etc. Unite is made up of 24 unions at which 15, 18 years ago
:04:01. > :04:08.it would have been individual bodies, most of whom would have been
:04:08. > :04:12.affiliated with a party. Most of whom would want the party to
:04:12. > :04:17.succeed, of course, but there would be nuances, differences between ways
:04:17. > :04:21.in which they wanted to speak, they wanted to emphasise things. And now
:04:21. > :04:28.of course that's one big conglomerate. I don't think that's
:04:29. > :04:32.healthy. Sunday Politics to the survey of councillors up to the
:04:32. > :04:37.Labour Party conference. They found that fewer than one in ten Labour
:04:37. > :04:41.councillors think Labour is too close to the unions. And indeed 25%
:04:41. > :04:48.wanted them to be even closer. That isn't the way Ed Miliband is taking
:04:48. > :04:54.things. Well, I mean, you have to differentiate, I think, between what
:04:54. > :04:59.is said, and what gets reported and the emphasis which is put on that
:04:59. > :05:02.reporting, so, immediately, Ed Miliband says Willie to consider our
:05:02. > :05:06.relationship with the unions, everybody at the start saying,
:05:06. > :05:10.goodness me, he wants to distance himself etc. And I don't think it's
:05:10. > :05:18.about that, at all. Clearly, Labour can't deliver its programme without
:05:18. > :05:23.the working people who the unions represent. The unions can't deliver
:05:23. > :05:26.their programme without good legislation. But comes from a Labour
:05:26. > :05:33.government. It's very much intertwined. Unite are boycotting
:05:33. > :05:39.tonight gala dinner and Ed Miliband is the guest of honour. What you
:05:39. > :05:45.make of that? It's a bit childish, to be truthful. I mean, as the
:05:45. > :05:48.already paid as money? Good question. You should be treasurer. I
:05:48. > :05:54.was treasurer for five years indeed. question. You should be treasurer. I
:05:54. > :06:03.When you had money. We did have money, actually. Not a great deal. I
:06:03. > :06:08.think are going to go to Brighton. I wouldn't pass up on a good meal.
:06:08. > :06:11.Let's get a sense of the mood at conference and talk to Fraser
:06:11. > :06:15.Nelson, editor of the Spectator. And Polly Toynbee who writes for the
:06:15. > :06:20.Guardian. Welcome to the Daily Politics. First of all, Polly, it
:06:20. > :06:23.has many great summer for Ed Miliband if you believe everything
:06:23. > :06:26.which has been stated by the polls, although I believe this one this
:06:26. > :06:30.morning which looks better in terms of the gap between Labour and the
:06:30. > :06:33.Conservatives. Has there been any move in terms of opinion at the
:06:33. > :06:39.conference about Ed Miliband's leadership? I don't think so because
:06:39. > :06:43.there isn't any kind of challenge anyway. All of the polls are
:06:43. > :06:45.virtually had showed that if there was an election tomorrow, he would
:06:46. > :06:51.still be not only the largest party, but actually have a majority
:06:51. > :06:56.in the House of Commons. It has been slumbering, very worrying. Today,
:06:56. > :07:00.after his speech, Labour last has the full set of policies and that's
:07:00. > :07:04.what people have been waiting for. What do you stand for? He has been
:07:04. > :07:09.difficult in interviews because he hasn't really said. He said we are
:07:09. > :07:14.looking, thinking, reviewing, and now we get the whole set. We get a
:07:14. > :07:19.million new homes and that an important bedrock policy. Abolishing
:07:19. > :07:24.the budget and tax which is highly symbolic. We have already had that
:07:24. > :07:28.they would keep Tory spending plans for the first, have a cap on
:07:28. > :07:34.benefits, and that's pretty much repealing the NHS privatisation act,
:07:34. > :07:37.that pretty much a full set, and plenty for Labour campaigners here
:07:37. > :07:41.to feel they can at last go out on the doorstep and say, this is what
:07:41. > :07:47.we would do. Whether or not he makes a good or bad speech, the point is,
:07:47. > :07:52.the beef is there. Let's talk about that. There's been criticism Labour
:07:52. > :07:55.hasn't come forward policies. They are in opposition. We are quite a
:07:56. > :08:02.long way away from the election. Why should they spell out a shadow
:08:02. > :08:06.budget for 2015? Do those policies Polly has just outlined, make for a
:08:06. > :08:11.broader narrative of the public will understand? Well, yes, if returning
:08:11. > :08:19.to the 1970s is the kind of narrative. It's not just this, but
:08:19. > :08:23.repealing the Tony Blair reforms and going back to the Frank Dobson era,
:08:23. > :08:27.the rhetoric he is coming out with. There is substance behind it which
:08:27. > :08:33.is definitely a big shift from what we had before, but it's really
:08:33. > :08:37.quite, it's bringing back socialism. The question is whether there's
:08:37. > :08:42.enough appetite in Britain for that. Certainly nobody can deny he is
:08:42. > :08:48.being bold and radical going against the orthodoxy in this, selling to
:08:48. > :08:56.Britain something Neil Kinnock failed to do in the 80s. That's not
:08:56. > :09:01.quite right because it's within a tight envelope. There's none of the
:09:01. > :09:11.bargain is in the Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock error about how much
:09:11. > :09:13.are you going to borrow, they have asked for there to be scrutiny of
:09:13. > :09:16.the manifesto to show they are thinking about the current spending
:09:16. > :09:23.plans of this government so what it will be about his priorities. In
:09:23. > :09:28.terms of spending. Taking money, for instance, from big businesses and
:09:28. > :09:32.helping the small businesses, who really are the main employers and
:09:32. > :09:37.the great start-ups. Spending much more money on housing. Labour didn't
:09:37. > :09:40.build many houses and this government built even fewer. We know
:09:40. > :09:46.House building is a huge generator of jobs and a huge stimulator of the
:09:46. > :09:54.economy. The question is, which policies will people like best? The
:09:54. > :09:57.economic box has been set. Fraser, on the cost of living, if we are
:09:57. > :10:02.looking at the alternative Osborne and Ed Balls presentation, this idea
:10:02. > :10:05.Ed Miliband will echo to some extent and Ed Balls presentation, this idea
:10:05. > :10:10.what Ronald Reagan said, do you feel better off now than he did five
:10:10. > :10:18.years ago? That is quite a fruitful line to pursue. Is it too early?
:10:18. > :10:23.No, I think Ed Miliband's has strong ground here. The big problem with
:10:23. > :10:26.the economic recovery is that the average voter is not feeling it.
:10:26. > :10:31.Wages are way down from where they were before the crash. And it
:10:31. > :10:36.doesn't make any difference if the GDP metric does, if you're not
:10:36. > :10:43.feeling it in your household, and they are not, then Ed Miliband's
:10:43. > :10:47.called resonate. Britain is not used to having five years variables wages
:10:47. > :10:50.don't improve. This is an odd recovery and Ed Miliband is
:10:50. > :10:55.absolutely right to point to the problem, but when he falls down is a
:10:55. > :10:58.lack of a solution. I don't need any Conservatives should dismiss the
:10:58. > :11:03.very serious problems that he points to hear in the economy. Let's talk
:11:03. > :11:11.briefly about Damien McBride. People have said not many people, not many
:11:11. > :11:17.delegates... Is it having any impact on the mood at conference? It
:11:17. > :11:22.certainly reminds people of the most dark days and they were. Damien
:11:22. > :11:26.McBride was fired in 2009, quite a bit of time ago. Plenty of people
:11:26. > :11:32.here, by no means all of them young, will remember very well the
:11:32. > :11:36.appalling Tony Blair and Gordon Brown rows and counter briefings and
:11:36. > :11:39.briefings and, in a way, it reminds people it's very different. People
:11:39. > :11:44.may think Ed Miliband is strong enough, but nobody actually thinks
:11:44. > :11:50.he's nasty or that he sticks knives in people. Except perhaps his
:11:50. > :11:55.brother. He's just not that kind of manner. I don't think even the Tory
:11:55. > :12:01.press could attack him for all types of thing but could put this kind of
:12:01. > :12:09.dirt on him. OK, enjoyed a speech later on. I love the idea a dozen
:12:09. > :12:16.steak knives into Babel except his brother. Fairly ruthless on that
:12:16. > :12:22.level. How transformational can his speech be? Well, there has been a
:12:22. > :12:27.lot of critical talk over the last 18 months or so that nobody knows
:12:27. > :12:31.what Labour stands for. Nobody knows what they are going to do and,
:12:31. > :12:37.today, as we understand it, we are going to hear North a lot about what
:12:37. > :12:40.Labour's programme is, so it will be transformational in that sense. At
:12:40. > :12:43.least people will say, OK, we know what is in their minds. The whole
:12:43. > :12:46.idea of getting to grips with a what is in their minds. The whole
:12:46. > :12:52.housing shortage, I think it's absolutely vital. It's led to all
:12:52. > :12:58.kinds of major issues. Major problems. We will be talking to
:12:58. > :13:01.Sadiq Khan about that shortly. Now it's the moment you've really been
:13:02. > :13:05.waiting for. Yes, it's our Guess the Year competition with a conference
:13:05. > :13:08.twist. Jo will remind you how to enter in just a moment. First
:13:08. > :13:17.though, can you work out when this happened?
:13:17. > :13:25.There are some of us, Mr Chairman, who will fight and
:13:25. > :13:30.There are some of us, Mr Chairman, again to save the party.
:13:30. > :13:38.I am not concerned about Mr Gaitskell but I'm more concerned
:13:38. > :13:47.about what will happen to the Labour Party. # I don't want you to be no
:13:47. > :13:55.slave... # I don't want you to work all day... # But I want you to be
:13:55. > :14:00.true # And I just want to make love to you...
:14:00. > :14:45.# Shaking all over. # Just the way that you say goodbye to meet
:14:45. > :14:53.To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, send your answer
:14:53. > :14:57.to our special quiz email address: Entries need to reach us by 12.45
:14:57. > :14:59.today. You can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year on
:14:59. > :15:07.our website. It's been all go at the Labour
:15:07. > :15:10.conference. So much so that there's a whole new policy to report since
:15:10. > :15:14.we've been off air. Yes, that's right, a policy! We've had some
:15:14. > :15:21.advance details of what Ed Miliband is going to say in his speech. So
:15:21. > :15:24.what do we know? Last night, Labour briefed the media
:15:24. > :15:27.that they would reverse a planned business rate rise due in April
:15:27. > :15:31.2015. But that's bad news for big business, as Labour would pay for
:15:31. > :15:36.this by scrapping a planned 1% cut in corporation tax for big
:15:36. > :15:39.companies. Labour estimates the move will help 1.5 million small
:15:39. > :15:48.businesses, saving them £450 on average over two years. But 80,000
:15:48. > :15:51.large firms will lose out. The Institute of Directors says the
:15:51. > :15:55.policy is "tinkering at the edges", and will only benefit very small
:15:55. > :15:59.firms. We're also told that Ed Miliband
:15:59. > :16:02.will announce in his speech that he's asked former local government
:16:02. > :16:05.big cheese Sir Michael Lyons to chair a commission on house
:16:05. > :16:14.building, with the aim of building 200,000 homes a year by 2020.
:16:14. > :16:23.Let's talk about all of this now with Labour frontbencher Sadiq Khan.
:16:23. > :16:27.Welcome to the Daily Politics. On housing which is the big
:16:27. > :16:31.announcement we are expecting today. Given Labour 's lacklustre
:16:31. > :16:36.housing record when it was in power, why should we believe you can
:16:36. > :16:40.pull off these enormous figures. I accept your criticisms we didn't
:16:40. > :16:46.build enough houses when we were in government. Not enough. We spent
:16:46. > :16:51.lots of money bringing up to a decent standard of social housing
:16:51. > :16:56.there was. What we have learnt is that was one of our failings. What
:16:56. > :17:01.we will do is give local authorities more powers. If there is land
:17:01. > :17:09.banking taking place, developers with permission, we will say use
:17:09. > :17:16.that permission or visit. We have a target of 200,000 new houses between
:17:16. > :17:24.2015 and 2020. There will be other announcements, not just housing, and
:17:24. > :17:31.the good news for small businesses. Housing is so important, Margaret
:17:31. > :17:36.Prosser talked about it. In 2007, your green paper set a target of
:17:36. > :17:46.200,000 new houses a year. Then 240,000. The biggest demand for new
:17:46. > :17:52.homes is in the south of England, and the south-east. Which is under
:17:52. > :17:55.the control of Tory councils. If they say, we do not want to free the
:17:55. > :17:57.land to build these homes, what they say, we do not want to free the
:17:57. > :18:02.would a central Labour government do?
:18:02. > :18:06.We aren't going to make Conservative councils build. We have asked
:18:07. > :18:11.Michael Lyons to spend 18 months looking at what we can do to get
:18:11. > :18:15.more houses built particularly in London and the south-east. In
:18:15. > :18:19.London, the council leaders I have spoken to today have welcomed this
:18:20. > :18:24.announcement. Most of those homes will be in London and the
:18:24. > :18:28.south-east. Most council leaders of all parties recognise local
:18:28. > :18:36.residents want homes for their children. Most local residents with
:18:36. > :18:44.grown-up children who are sofa surfing, want those houses.
:18:45. > :18:52.It may be a popular way of getting re-elected. If you speak to parents
:18:53. > :18:57.who own their homes with adult children who have come back home or
:18:57. > :19:01.who are renting, the average age of a buyer is 38 in London. Half of
:19:01. > :19:04.who are renting, the average age of Londoners are renting. We have a
:19:05. > :19:08.housing crisis. This announcement goes part of the way to solving
:19:08. > :19:11.housing crisis. This announcement that. Michael Lyons will give us the
:19:11. > :19:17.solutions to address the housing crisis.
:19:17. > :19:25.The key thing, despite this target, you will not make local authorities
:19:25. > :19:30.make land available for housing? Local authorities will have the
:19:30. > :19:35.power to compulsory purchase. I am talking about central government. If
:19:36. > :19:38.you look at the last three years, the lowest number of houses built
:19:38. > :19:41.you look at the last three years, since the 1920s. We have announced
:19:41. > :19:45.new powers to local authorities who want to do the right thing by their
:19:45. > :19:48.local residents. Michael Lyons will want to do the right thing by their
:19:48. > :19:58.look at all of the options to make a sea change for new houses. Across --
:19:58. > :20:06.for those who aren't -- first-time buyers.
:20:06. > :20:11.And the work concerning energy bills. Those have risen. Given your
:20:11. > :20:16.record, why should we believe you would be better. The average weekly
:20:17. > :20:21.household spent on energy bills has doubled over the last Labour
:20:21. > :20:24.government. Ed Miliband was the Energy Secretary. Let me remind you
:20:24. > :20:30.government. Ed Miliband was the during our time in government we did
:20:30. > :20:34.not have a cost of living crisis. Over the last three years, energy
:20:34. > :20:44.companies have made huge profits, a cartel by the big six do a great
:20:44. > :20:48.deal but where people are paying above inflation in their bills.
:20:49. > :20:55.deal but where people are paying will hear this afternoon what we
:20:55. > :20:58.will do as a one Nation Labour government. Liam Byrne has said the
:20:58. > :21:04.cost of living squeeze started in 2005.
:21:04. > :21:13.Under you. The worldwide banking crash...
:21:13. > :21:19.2005, that was well before the crash. We have said these squeezed
:21:19. > :21:25.middle is a phenomenon which has been going on for decades. It is
:21:25. > :21:29.different from the cost of living crisis. Where hard-working
:21:29. > :21:38.families, mums and dads working, can't afford Tube fares, gas bills,
:21:38. > :21:43.by their first property. That has got worse over the last few years
:21:43. > :21:47.because if you people have benefited the most from George Osborne's
:21:48. > :21:56.so-called recovery. You say there is a living standards
:21:56. > :22:03.squeeze. It did start in 2005 on your watch. The polls say they blame
:22:03. > :22:11.Labour. Twice as many people blame Labour. Twice as many people blame
:22:11. > :22:20.We can continue with this Punch and Judy stuff. It's a shame you're not
:22:20. > :22:30.here. Not only is the weather great, this is it. We are recognising the
:22:30. > :22:37.problems ordinary Britons are facing and looking for solutions. You will
:22:37. > :22:41.see examples of policies to address the cost of living crisis people are
:22:41. > :22:46.facing. You were brought into government by
:22:46. > :22:58.Gordon Brown. Were you aware of what his acolytes were up to?
:22:58. > :23:03.I have never met Damian McBride. Its journalists reading his book, not
:23:03. > :23:08.MPs. I have never been involved in any briefing against colleagues.
:23:08. > :23:13.That kind of politics is poisonous. This Labour Party is a million miles
:23:13. > :23:16.away from the party Damian McBride was involved in.
:23:16. > :23:18.Thank you for joining us from Brighton.
:23:18. > :23:25.The big announcement in Ed Balls's speech yesterday was a surprise
:23:25. > :23:27.shift in Labour's position on HS2. He said the project would
:23:28. > :23:30.shift in Labour's position on HS2. reviewed in 2015 if Labour wins the
:23:30. > :23:32.next election, and could be cancelled if it's not thought to be
:23:32. > :23:44.good value for money. cancelled if it's not thought to be
:23:44. > :23:50.The new year slog back to work. The first commute on a dark January
:23:50. > :23:55.morning. The nasty 's shock awaiting commuters, third year in a row of
:23:55. > :24:00.inflation busting fare rises. It can't be right that the cost of
:24:00. > :24:04.commuting is going up so much faster than wages. Often more than the
:24:04. > :24:10.mortgage or rent. Let me say this to the train companies. You make
:24:10. > :24:15.hundreds of millions a year in a system that pays out more in
:24:15. > :24:21.subsidies than you pay back to taxpayers. So, when fares rise again
:24:21. > :24:24.in January, do the right thing. Involuntarily capped fare rises
:24:24. > :24:31.since ministers won't, do your bit to ease the cost of living crisis.
:24:31. > :24:35.If you choose not to act, then a one Nation Labour government world. We
:24:35. > :24:40.need a new deal for passengers as well. No more stretching peak time
:24:40. > :24:45.when it is actually about stretching off it. No more confusing tickets
:24:45. > :24:49.say you get fleeced because you got the wrong train. Stick the exact
:24:49. > :24:56.times you can use a ticket on the ticket. It's not difficult really.
:24:56. > :25:00.Let us free up space for new commuter services by moving the
:25:00. > :25:05.growth in longer journeys on to a new north-south rail line, producing
:25:05. > :25:12.journey times, getting more freight off our roads. That's why we support
:25:12. > :25:16.HS2. Unlike the Tories, we will insist on building the new
:25:16. > :25:23.North-South rail line creates thousands of new apprenticeships for
:25:23. > :25:29.our young people. But, as Ed balls has rightly said,
:25:29. > :25:33.there can be no blank check for any government project. So I say to
:25:33. > :25:39.David Cameron, get a grip on this project. Get a grip on its budget.
:25:39. > :25:48.And get it back on track. Maria Eagle. She said we are
:25:48. > :25:52.supporting HS2. Which side of the tracks do you fall?
:25:52. > :25:57.I am rather glad she has spoken as she has. Yesterday, I think it must
:25:57. > :26:00.come as a bolt out of the blue when Ed balls said he wasn't certain
:26:00. > :26:04.come as a bolt out of the blue when about the whole thing. And also, you
:26:04. > :26:08.have to feel sorry for all those people who are going to be affected
:26:08. > :26:14.by the development of the line. Is it coming, is it not coming? It has
:26:14. > :26:21.a major impact on their lives. Also, we just heard Sadiq Khan building
:26:21. > :26:27.more houses, that is excellent. But there is a big north -south divide
:26:27. > :26:32.in this country. You think it should go ahead? Whatever the cost?
:26:32. > :26:37.Obviously you have to be sensible and keep an eye on these things. One
:26:37. > :26:42.of the reasons these projects get out of hand is because politicians
:26:42. > :26:48.keep poking their noses in and changing the specs. Doesn't it look
:26:48. > :26:50.indecisive? Absolutely. Doesn't Labour look indecisive now they are
:26:50. > :26:57.indecisive? Absolutely. Doesn't hedging their bets? One hand is not
:26:57. > :26:59.talking to the other. Maria Eagle is responsible for transport policy. It
:26:59. > :27:05.seems like she knows where she is going. How do you think Labour
:27:05. > :27:11.councillors in Manchester or anywhere along the line to the
:27:11. > :27:16.north, how do they feel? The leader of Manchester council has
:27:16. > :27:22.been quoted this morning as being very cross. It is bad enough to have
:27:22. > :27:25.a divide in this country between the haves and have-nots, which is
:27:25. > :27:32.getting wider. To have that also between the north and south getting
:27:32. > :27:36.wider, it isn't helpful to social cohesion for the future.
:27:36. > :27:40.Except, it does Ed Balls think it makes him and Labour look fiscally
:27:40. > :27:44.responsible? He has to look his believe is possible and I truly
:27:44. > :27:51.believe he is. I am glad you do! As was said
:27:51. > :27:56.earlier, the office for Budget Responsibility has been asked to
:27:56. > :27:57.look at costing the ideas put forward. That is a really sensible
:27:57. > :28:04.idea. For all the policy announcements,
:28:04. > :28:07.the main topic of conversation, at least for journalists at the Labour
:28:07. > :28:10.Party conference, has been the revelations in Damian McBride's new
:28:10. > :28:13.book which is being serialised in the Daily Mail, about his time
:28:13. > :28:19.working as an adviser to Gordon Brown. But are normal party members
:28:19. > :28:26.interested? And, do they want to read the book? Adam has been finding
:28:26. > :28:29.out. It is said to be the biggest
:28:29. > :28:35.political book of the year, probably not quite the size of this poster.
:28:35. > :28:40.Do Labour delegates want to buy the memoirs by Damien but bride or bid
:28:40. > :28:44.it? Aren't you even curious about the gossip in it?
:28:44. > :28:52.I have seen some of the extracts in the Daily Mail. He has really sold
:28:52. > :28:59.his soul. I am absolutely not going to buy his book. Are you going to
:28:59. > :29:07.read someone else's copy? I have better things to read.
:29:07. > :29:17.Buy it or bid it? Bin it. Not even out of curiosity? This is Alistair
:29:17. > :29:23.Campbell's new novel. Even size it for you if you ask nicely. Let us
:29:23. > :29:30.see the signature. What does that say about the size of his ego?
:29:30. > :29:36.So far people haven't wanted to admit it on camera, buying his
:29:36. > :29:42.book. I wonder why that is? You are the first person who would admit it.
:29:42. > :29:45.They were the really bad days for the party and its crucial we don't
:29:45. > :29:49.go back and the more people know about what happened, the better, so
:29:49. > :29:51.we can learn from it. I've had a look at it in the Guardian, and I
:29:51. > :29:56.we can learn from it. I've had a couldn't even stomach that. Not a
:29:56. > :30:02.Damien fan? You are a former spin doctor, and is this book an accurate
:30:02. > :30:08.reflection? I have not read and I'm not going to read it. I'd not even
:30:08. > :30:12.read the extract, I'm not interested in anything Damien McBride has to
:30:12. > :30:17.say. Let's go and check out the book shops and see what's happening
:30:17. > :30:22.there. How big a seller is it going to be? Huge, a lot of people have
:30:22. > :30:27.been asking about it. We have got it one day before everybody else, as
:30:27. > :30:30.well. OK, our people open about buying it because I've found people
:30:30. > :30:34.are nervous about buying it. People have spoken about it with their
:30:34. > :30:44.hands over their mouth. You are being a bit of Mr fire as well,
:30:44. > :30:48.aren't you? Any publisher who has a sense of commerciality would publish
:30:48. > :30:53.at this time, because this is one would get publicity, so it's not
:30:53. > :30:56.designed to stare at the Labour Party conference. If I had Andy
:30:56. > :31:03.Coulson like man was I would also publish it now. Will there be a
:31:03. > :31:09.movie? A very good idea. Who would play him? You have a similar face.
:31:09. > :31:13.What come around? I think it was obvious and very early on how this
:31:13. > :31:19.would go, people saying they would rather be in the book banned by it,
:31:19. > :31:28.although, looks like he might sell 24 copies here. Adam, you look
:31:28. > :31:33.nothing like Damien McBride. And Damian McBride is here now. You were
:31:33. > :31:37.a civil servant before you became practised in the dark practice of
:31:37. > :31:41.a civil servant before you became spin doctoring. Who tortured us, Ed
:31:41. > :31:47.Balls, Gordon Brown, both of them? -- who taught you this? My behaviour
:31:47. > :31:53.became worse and worse the longer I was in the system operating as a
:31:53. > :32:01.special adviser. They allowed you to behave badly. The first time I had
:32:01. > :32:05.contact with a journalist, I was a naive innocent person who said
:32:05. > :32:06.something stupid about fuel duty to the Daily Telegraph, and when you
:32:06. > :32:10.something stupid about fuel duty to have a few of those harsh lessons,
:32:10. > :32:15.you speak a lot to journalists about how things work, and what I found it
:32:15. > :32:21.I was able to build very strong relationships with journalists
:32:21. > :32:27.across the spectrum, and they didn't see me just as a Labour person or a
:32:27. > :32:30.left-wing person. Over time, I started to sustain and maintain
:32:30. > :32:35.those relationships by pushing the boundaries of what I should be
:32:35. > :32:38.doing. Building relationships with journalists is one thing. Doing what
:32:38. > :32:41.you did is another matter and you are doing it for Gordon Brown. He
:32:42. > :32:46.used to go on about his moral compass, which guided him, and
:32:46. > :32:50.leaders of new Labour at the time, they strutted around as if they were
:32:50. > :32:55.characters from the West Wing. Thanks to people like you, it is
:32:55. > :33:01.more like the Sopranos, wasn't it? I behaved ultimately, in a way which
:33:01. > :33:05.was fitting that. It fitted that idea of some people operating in a
:33:05. > :33:10.way which people took exception to because it's like gangsters. Yes,
:33:10. > :33:21.all too often, when we go back to the history of new Labour, we are
:33:21. > :33:26.effectively, from 1997, 1994, until 2007, Labour was the only show in
:33:26. > :33:33.town and, unfortunately, politics needs conflict. It needs opposition.
:33:33. > :33:39.So you fight amongst yourselves instead? Exactly. What does it tell
:33:39. > :33:44.us about Gordon Brown that he employ someone as immoral and despicable as
:33:44. > :33:47.yourself? He only knew me when he first employed me as a civil servant
:33:47. > :33:52.and all I'd ever delivered for him was extremely effective and popular
:33:52. > :33:57.tax policy reforms, so that's the person he employed. Except that he
:33:57. > :34:03.knew what it was getting, the most senior of civil servants, Gus
:34:03. > :34:08.O'Donnell, warned about your character and conduct twice in 2005
:34:08. > :34:14.and 2007, and he stuck with you because he wanted somebody to do his
:34:14. > :34:20.dirty work. I'm talking about when we started. In 2003, when Gordon
:34:20. > :34:24.recruited me, Gus O'Donnell regarded me as a Treasury high-flyer. He then
:34:24. > :34:29.warned Gordon Brown who ignored the warnings about you. The warning he
:34:30. > :34:34.gave Gordon Brown was that this guy is no longer a pleasant civil
:34:34. > :34:41.servant but is operating in a political way. It wasn't necessarily
:34:41. > :34:46.a warning that I was operating in a gangster way, but clearly that this
:34:46. > :34:52.guy is too political to consider as a civil servant. Did you have an
:34:52. > :34:54.unhealthy fixation with Mr Brown? No. Is there nothing you wouldn't do
:34:54. > :34:59.unhealthy fixation with Mr Brown? for him? I didn't enjoy being woken
:34:59. > :35:05.up at 5am by Gordon complaining about what was on the television or
:35:05. > :35:09.something like that. It wasn't like I work at everyday thinking my
:35:09. > :35:14.master is calling and I must leap into action. I found working for him
:35:14. > :35:21.a frustrating experience but also rewarding. Did he ever tried to rein
:35:21. > :35:26.you in? Well, I think the clearest time came after the party conference
:35:26. > :35:30.in 2008, when he removed me from the press briefing job because it was
:35:30. > :35:36.getting 70 complaints. Including Ed Miliband. By then you are done the
:35:36. > :35:41.dirty work. Well, he was in power by them. There were times when Gordon
:35:41. > :35:45.said to meet, he would be told I had done something and he would put it
:35:45. > :35:49.to me that Tony Blair says you have done this thing, John Reid says have
:35:49. > :35:55.done this thing. My attitude was, I would lie to him effectively. He
:35:55. > :36:00.knew you were lying. He didn't know the reality of what was happening
:36:00. > :36:07.and... He knew we were up to no good. He knew, if I walked out of
:36:07. > :36:15.the room saying, look, I do what I have to do, I don't know whether
:36:15. > :36:21.stuff comes from, why are you accusing me? Tessa Jarrell says
:36:22. > :36:26.Gordon Brown knew what you were up to in his name. She says, it's
:36:26. > :36:32.inconceivable he didn't know what Damien was doing. Damien felt it was
:36:32. > :36:36.implicitly sanctioned. The things I have omitted to do in the book,
:36:36. > :36:42.which appeared in the extract the Daily Mail, a series of quite select
:36:42. > :36:46.things, John Reid, Ivan Lewis, Charles Clarke and others. I would
:36:46. > :36:50.never put Gordon into any of those, Gordon wouldn't have known it. But
:36:50. > :36:54.that's what I consider Terry does for the beauty of the Godfather away
:36:54. > :36:59.from the dirty stuff. -- conciliatory. There's no way he
:36:59. > :37:02.from the dirty stuff. -- could have known I was doing that
:37:02. > :37:09.stuff. Charles Clarke, for example, I orchestrated what looked like a
:37:09. > :37:11.briefing but Louise Casey were not convinced by what happened. If
:37:11. > :37:15.they, who actually knew what was convinced by what happened. If
:37:15. > :37:18.going on, thought that was happening, why was Gordon Brown
:37:18. > :37:26.supposed to know any different? He would have assumed just as Charles
:37:26. > :37:30.Clarke did, that it was. You are claiming to be open, honest,
:37:30. > :37:35.apologetic. The truth is, you are still spinning, on to question what
:37:35. > :37:41.you're taking great care not to implicate Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband,
:37:41. > :37:45.Ed Balls in your dirty work. I'm not going to ask them to take the blame
:37:46. > :37:53.for things I did. I'm admitting what I did. You and the two Eds, you are
:37:53. > :37:57.part of a politico motivated group of acolytes around Mr Brown. It's
:37:57. > :38:01.inconceivable they didn't know what you were getting up to. You might
:38:01. > :38:05.inconceivable they didn't know what find it inconceivable but it's true.
:38:05. > :38:10.There were things I got up to, as I say, in those dozen circumstances
:38:10. > :38:14.where I did things which were beyond the pale, which they did not know.
:38:14. > :38:21.The proof is in the pudding. You said Ed Miliband was best friend the
:38:21. > :38:26.four years. He was a friend. He knew nothing? For the most part, I was a
:38:26. > :38:31.civil servant, head of two indications in 2003, that's when I
:38:31. > :38:36.got to know him. He was there for a lot of the bad stuff as well. Up to
:38:36. > :38:43.2008. If you want to be honest with us, you should tell us. I am telling
:38:43. > :38:46.you, what happened in 2007, when Ed Miliband felt he was a victim of
:38:46. > :38:49.those briefings, he was quite prepared to call me out on it and
:38:50. > :38:55.saved to meet, I believe you were doing this briefing, and complained
:38:56. > :38:59.to Gordon Brown about it. After five years. People who worked with you in
:38:59. > :39:03.Downing Street, we have spoken to, and they said you often drunk from
:39:03. > :39:09.heavy drinking the night before. Maybe you just don't remember. No, I
:39:09. > :39:13.was usually not in the office because I was usually out with
:39:13. > :39:18.journalists establishing that contact. When you say they must have
:39:18. > :39:23.assumed you were doing this kind of thing, the truth is, Gordon Brown,
:39:23. > :39:27.Ed Balls, Ed Miliband and other people in Downing Street assumed
:39:27. > :39:30.that the reason I had these close relationships with journalists and
:39:30. > :39:33.was able to influence what came out of the media was just because of
:39:33. > :39:37.investing time in those relationships. I was willing to
:39:37. > :39:41.spend all afternoon in the pubs with journalists in the hope of producing
:39:41. > :39:45.good stories. They did not know that they would not spend their bar tab
:39:45. > :39:47.on me unless I fed them stories. That's the way of the world but it
:39:47. > :39:52.on me unless I fed them stories. depends on what kind of stories.
:39:53. > :39:59.Party critical and John Reid Maca boss personal life is two different
:39:59. > :40:06.things. You need to black and those who sees enemies. You say, when
:40:06. > :40:10.Douglas Alexander talks about unity, I draw the line. What you
:40:10. > :40:13.mean by that? For Douglas to say he's never engaged in any kind of
:40:13. > :40:16.divisive and destructive briefing, I he's never engaged in any kind of
:40:16. > :40:22.don't think it's accurate. That's what I mean. Ed Balls and Ed
:40:22. > :40:27.whenever involved in destructive things? I've never known it. There
:40:27. > :40:34.is a specific example in the book that there was a damaging story
:40:34. > :40:37.which came out about Gordon Brown seeking five separate meetings with
:40:37. > :40:43.President Obama and that story came from Douglas Alexander. I don't know
:40:43. > :40:47.whether he knew. You see my point. You're willing to tell tales on Mr
:40:47. > :40:50.Alexander but not on the people you worked with. If I had a similar
:40:50. > :40:53.Alexander but not on the people you example I would be happy to share
:40:53. > :40:56.it. You admit to being involved in political assassinations of
:40:56. > :41:00.prominent Labour figures. It was political assassinations of
:41:00. > :41:08.never the Tories but always labour. Nearly always. Where you also
:41:08. > :41:14.involved in the 2006 coup orchestrated by Tom Watson to force
:41:14. > :41:19.Mr Blair to resign? No, indeed, one of the bits of evidence is how
:41:19. > :41:25.brilliantly conceived it was, and how well executed it was, lots of it
:41:25. > :41:29.came as genuine surprises. You never know he was going to Scotland to see
:41:29. > :41:33.Gordon Brown? The first I knew about that was when I went into Gordon
:41:33. > :41:36.said, there is a journalist on the phone saying did he pop in at St
:41:36. > :41:41.Andrews last week? That was the first I knew of it. I don't think
:41:41. > :41:48.the St Andrews. That's another matter. It was. Here you are doing
:41:48. > :41:53.political assassination for Gordon Brown. Your whole reason was to get
:41:53. > :41:57.Gordon Brown in as Prime Minister, and to destroy anybody who could be
:41:57. > :42:03.a challenger, and yet, come the coup, you don't do anything about
:42:03. > :42:06.it? You got to look of dynamics. Backbenchers and people like Tom
:42:06. > :42:11.Watson, junior ministers, were being told that if they put their in
:42:11. > :42:16.Gordon Brown to deliver a transition, it would happen. They
:42:16. > :42:19.were told, don't agitate, and these people had friends which had lost
:42:19. > :42:23.seats in the Midlands, in the 2005 election, large majorities lot of
:42:23. > :42:26.them, because many people were not election, large majorities lot of
:42:26. > :42:31.prepared to vote for the Labour Party as long as Tony Blair was
:42:31. > :42:36.leader the Iraq war. And so, what happened at the time, after Tony
:42:36. > :42:41.Blair said I'm going for a third term, that provoked a huge anger and
:42:41. > :42:47.resentment amongst that group and they launched this coup. Alastair
:42:47. > :42:52.Campbell told this programme that he thinks it was your behaviour and
:42:52. > :42:55.people like you that contributed to Labour going down to its worst
:42:55. > :43:00.defeat in living memory in 2010. Lets see what he had to say. I've
:43:00. > :43:05.always said this about Gordon, I think he had unbelievable strengths,
:43:05. > :43:08.and, actually, possibly in a different age, would've been an
:43:08. > :43:11.amazing Prime Minister and I think he was a great Chancellor and
:43:11. > :43:18.handled international crisis well, but he had a real floor for this
:43:18. > :43:22.need for truly horrible people to be around him doing truly horrible
:43:22. > :43:25.things in politics and giving him and the Labour Party and politics a
:43:25. > :43:32.bad name and that's why I'm still angry about Damien McBride. What is
:43:32. > :43:36.your reaction? He has got his view. A lot of people decide not to vote
:43:36. > :43:38.for the Labour Party in 2005, they might feel Alastair Campbell was
:43:38. > :43:44.something to do with that. Gordon Brown knew what you were doing when
:43:44. > :43:55.you were leaking of the EU budget. No, we were in Brussels. He knew you
:43:55. > :44:01.were doing that. You know very well it is perfectly acceptable for
:44:01. > :44:06.politicians to use leaks that they get to the press to expose plans the
:44:06. > :44:11.European Commission has and therefore be able to oppose them.
:44:11. > :44:13.Not only would Gordon have agreed with me leaking that, and
:44:13. > :44:18.effectively gave me the instruction by the British people would agree
:44:18. > :44:23.with that. I'm not sure people want to pay the salary of someone who
:44:23. > :44:26.does leaking. Even for the EU budget? I think they think you
:44:27. > :44:32.should be working on our behalf. Not on your own agenda. Saving taxpayers
:44:32. > :44:36.money. We are paying you to smear people. You were smearing people on
:44:36. > :44:44.the tax well and we had to pay for it. Thank you for answering my
:44:45. > :44:49.questions. You are in the sackcloth and ashes doing the studio rounds,
:44:49. > :44:51.admitting to smearing and undermining and destroying people
:44:51. > :44:58.who were meant to be on your side, too. They were on your side.
:44:59. > :45:03.Labour's side. They remain smeared, undermined, destroyed. And you get a
:45:03. > :45:07.huge cheque for your apology. Is that fair? I paid a big price in
:45:07. > :45:13.huge cheque for your apology. Is 2009 when I got caught out for that
:45:13. > :45:17.kind of activity. And I found myself sort of thrown out, discarded,
:45:17. > :45:21.without a penny, from Downing Street after giving 13 years to the
:45:21. > :45:26.government and the Labour Party. That's what happens when you've done
:45:26. > :45:30.something wrong. It is. Other people haven't done anything wrong. Well,
:45:30. > :45:35.as I've said, I'm sorry about those things I did. But they don't get a
:45:36. > :45:41.cheque. They can write their own memoirs. Damien McBride, thank you.
:45:41. > :45:46.We can talk now to the Conservative MP Alun Cairns who has asked the
:45:46. > :45:53.police to investigate Damian McBride.
:45:53. > :45:59.Welcome to the programme, what law is Damian McBride alleged to have
:45:59. > :46:05.broken? One is the computer misuse act, and the official secrets act.
:46:05. > :46:10.In the Daily Mail on the 20th of September, he voluntarily says he
:46:10. > :46:17.used to access the then Chancellor Gordon Brown's e-mail account. Not
:46:17. > :46:25.his personal account but the e-mail account with Cabinet painters --
:46:25. > :46:30.papers and announcements, and potentially would leak them. That is
:46:30. > :46:37.a breach under the computer misuse act and the official secrets act.
:46:37. > :46:42.But you could argue he may have had permission to look at those
:46:42. > :46:46.documents, even on someone else's computer. Damian McBride has plenty
:46:46. > :46:51.did not leak anything confidential, in fact he made up a lot of the
:46:51. > :46:54.stories that may have been tied to those documents. So what is the
:46:54. > :46:59.point? We do not know he had permission,
:46:59. > :47:03.the hint is he did not. The then Chancellor did not know about it. If
:47:03. > :47:09.someone was rooting in my e-mail account, I would like to know. It is
:47:09. > :47:12.important we get to the bottom of this. I am a politician, not an
:47:12. > :47:15.important we get to the bottom of expert in this field, but the police
:47:15. > :47:20.are. I would expect the chief of expert in this field, but the police
:47:20. > :47:22.police at Scotland Yard to show an interest in the evidence which has
:47:22. > :47:26.been volunteered. And to get to the interest in the evidence which has
:47:26. > :47:33.bottom to find out how far it goes and what others knew. Ed Balls was
:47:33. > :47:35.tightly associated with it, as well as Ed Miliband, let's find out what
:47:35. > :47:40.they knew. Damian McBride said last as Ed Miliband, let's find out what
:47:40. > :47:47.night he would happily talk to the police and I hope that would extend
:47:47. > :47:52.to Ed Miliband and Ed Balls. Margaret Prosser, do you believe
:47:52. > :47:56.Damian McBride when he says that actually Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband
:47:56. > :48:02.and Ed Balls did not know what he was doing?
:48:02. > :48:08.I do not know, all I do know is... I was quite closely involved with the
:48:08. > :48:15.party at that time. And it was clear to everybody that there was really
:48:15. > :48:23.bad behaviour going on, that it was nasty. The idea that people like
:48:23. > :48:28.Damian McBride worked to throw out a sitting prime minister, and put in
:48:28. > :48:32.place somebody who it was clear to anybody with half an ounce of sense
:48:32. > :48:37.was never going to make a good prime minister, I absolutely accept what
:48:37. > :48:42.Alistair Campbell said. A good Chancellor, but he wasn't a team
:48:42. > :48:46.player, no way was he going to be a good prime minister. All this work
:48:46. > :48:51.in the background struck me as vindictive. I have to say, I give
:48:51. > :48:55.you credit, you haven't lost your skills as a spin doctor. Because you
:48:55. > :49:00.are now presenting yourself as the person who is doing us all a favour.
:49:00. > :49:06.Last night, virtually what you said was, this has come out, this book,
:49:06. > :49:12.to save the Labour leadership from itself. You should be a stand-up
:49:13. > :49:15.comic. I thought that was hilariously funny. I nearly fell off
:49:15. > :49:31.my sever. What do you say? I refer to the
:49:31. > :49:33.other comment made on the programme.
:49:33. > :49:39.approaching general election or, well, out for the count? His
:49:39. > :49:43.conference speech last autumn was pretty well received, but he has
:49:43. > :49:45.taken a few hits since. We asked Mark Ferguson, editor of the
:49:45. > :49:50.grassroots network LabourList, for his take on how Ed has been doing
:49:50. > :49:53.over the last year. And, to give him space, peace and time to make a
:49:53. > :50:18.considered assessment, we sent him boxing!
:50:18. > :50:23.It's a tough fight, politics, you pick up a lot of bruises on the
:50:23. > :50:29.way. It's also a game of strategy and Ed Miliband has managed some
:50:29. > :50:33.surprise punches. A year ago he addressed a conference on fighting
:50:33. > :50:40.form. The man his opponents call red Ed through -- drew historical
:50:40. > :50:44.inspiration. One nation, where everyone has a stake. One nation,
:50:44. > :50:53.where prosperity is fairly shared. That is the Britain we must become.
:50:53. > :50:56.When Baroness Thatcher died, his reaction was statesman-like. Whilst
:50:56. > :51:01.not alienating his party. He has begun to land some real blows in
:51:01. > :51:06.Parliament. When the government abandoned minimum alcohol pricing.
:51:06. > :51:16.He asked. Is there anything he could organise in a brewery?
:51:16. > :51:20.But he still needs to answer the crucial question. What will you do
:51:20. > :51:24.in government? Or the more tricky version, why should people bother to
:51:24. > :51:30.vote labour, and how would the Labour government be any different
:51:31. > :51:35.this time? He has struggled to prove he is 100% fighting fit. Two areas
:51:36. > :51:40.where he needs to make it count is the economy and welfare. Labour has
:51:40. > :51:48.laid out some of the building blocks for a new economy. A mansion tax, a
:51:48. > :51:51.return to the 10p tax rate, a welfare cap of sorts, cracking down
:51:51. > :51:57.on zero hours contracts. All part of a cost of living push. But the party
:51:57. > :52:01.has a declining lead in the polls despite years of slow or no growth.
:52:01. > :52:06.If Labour hasn't won the argument on the economy so far, how will they
:52:06. > :52:15.win over the economy -- the public now the economy is growing? Ed
:52:15. > :52:23.Miliband has emphasised the key to getting young people into work. If
:52:23. > :52:31.the party is to be successful, the public must be convinced Labour can
:52:31. > :52:38.be trusted with their money. One of them big battles has been
:52:38. > :52:42.with the trade unions. It has been presented by some in the leadership
:52:42. > :52:47.as an opportunity for him to weigh in as a heavyweight. His reforms
:52:47. > :52:50.were triggered by accusations of wrongdoing in a parliamentary
:52:50. > :52:54.selection in Falkirk. Although the party concluded there was no
:52:54. > :53:02.wrongdoing, the changes are going ahead. This is a defining moment. It
:53:02. > :53:08.is bold and strong, it is real leadership. Maybe. The decision has
:53:08. > :53:17.cost the Labour party financially. The GMB cut its affiliate fees by £1
:53:17. > :53:21.million a year. Syria has been seen as a defining issue for Ed Miliband.
:53:21. > :53:28.Some accuse him of opportunism, others are bending to the will of
:53:28. > :53:31.his MPs. His opposition to action was a principled position. Based on
:53:31. > :53:36.a need for evidence and planning, supported by his party and the
:53:36. > :53:40.population at large. The question remains, is he ready to vote for a
:53:40. > :53:46.walk if or when his criteria are met? There is one rule in a
:53:46. > :53:51.political contest. You cannot disappear in the middle of a fight.
:53:51. > :53:53.As Ed Miliband learned this summer, going on holiday can lead to
:53:53. > :53:58.As Ed Miliband learned this summer, trouble, especially when most of the
:53:58. > :54:02.shadow cabinet go quite as well. It led to criticisms of a policy vacuum
:54:03. > :54:08.with backbenchers questioning the party direction and leadership. It
:54:08. > :54:16.wasn't long before the media turned against him again, fuelled by his
:54:16. > :54:22.low personal opinion ratings. All party leaders get egg on their face
:54:22. > :54:27.from time to time but over the next year, he really needs to get on the
:54:27. > :54:31.front foot. Conference speech will be important but we need to see some
:54:31. > :54:37.serious policy messages and detail. He needs to show he can be a winner,
:54:37. > :54:41.and a bold one, in the next 12 months. That Labour are up for the
:54:41. > :54:45.fight. Wouldn't it be nice to turn up to conference next year and not
:54:45. > :54:50.have it described as make or break. There is a risk if we are saying
:54:50. > :54:56.that, Labour could be on the ropes. Chuka Umunna joins us now from
:54:56. > :55:05.Brighton. Let's look at some of the policies.
:55:05. > :55:09.It's sunny here. The policy of cutting rates for small businesses
:55:09. > :55:15.has already been slammed by a number of business groups as robbing Peter
:55:15. > :55:18.to pay Paul. Explain how a cut in business rates the smaller firms
:55:19. > :55:24.being offset by delayed production in corporation tax will help growth?
:55:25. > :55:29.Well, at the end of the day, small businesses create around two thirds
:55:29. > :55:34.of private sector jobs, and half of private sector growth. It has been a
:55:34. > :55:38.difficult time for all businesses, most acutely felt by small
:55:38. > :55:42.businesses. The issue with the corporation tax cut which the
:55:42. > :55:49.government is planning, bringing it down from 21%, to 20%. That is not
:55:49. > :55:53.going to benefit 98% of businesses in this country. But if you divert
:55:53. > :56:02.it to cutting business rates in 2016, and freezing, 2015, sorry, and
:56:02. > :56:06.freezing it in 2016, that will help over 1 million small and
:56:06. > :56:09.medium-sized businesses. You didn't mention all of the business groups
:56:09. > :56:15.and organisations who have come out and said this is a good thing, the
:56:15. > :56:19.Federation of small businesses, I have been speaking here on a
:56:19. > :56:25.platform with representatives from Kingfisher who own big companies.
:56:25. > :56:28.They have welcomed this. Do not ignore the people talking about
:56:28. > :56:33.this. We have had a tweet from the
:56:33. > :56:36.Federation of small businesses who have said that the much bigger
:56:36. > :56:42.problem is actually cash flow. They want to know what you would do to
:56:42. > :56:45.actually help people pay on time to small businesses, because that is
:56:45. > :56:52.the cause of businesses going bust. Not just a cut in interest, business
:56:52. > :56:55.rates. We have never said it is just due to business rates that you see
:56:55. > :56:58.businesses struggling. We have won praise from the
:56:58. > :57:17.Federation from the work we have been doing around the need to clamp
:57:18. > :57:20.down on late payments by large businesses to their small business
:57:20. > :57:22.suppliers. In government, we set up the prompt payment code which this
:57:22. > :57:24.government is taking forward. And legislation to help people recover
:57:24. > :57:26.interest from those who don't pay on time. We are looking in the context
:57:26. > :57:28.of our policy review how we use time. We are looking in the context
:57:28. > :57:30.government power for public procurement to ensure people pay on
:57:30. > :57:31.time. And government suppliers ensure there is prompt payment all
:57:31. > :57:33.time. And government suppliers the way down the chain. I
:57:33. > :57:37.time. And government suppliers this when I addressed the Federation
:57:37. > :57:44.'s conference this year. We are working with them.
:57:44. > :57:47.But, are you disappointed that, although you have had support from
:57:47. > :57:52.the Federation of small businesses, that you have got the British
:57:52. > :57:57.Chambers of commerce, the Institute of directors, all saying this policy
:57:57. > :58:01.of cutting business rates for small businesses is divisive. Playing one
:58:01. > :58:04.set of businesses off against another. They feel this is not the
:58:04. > :58:09.time to divide the business community.
:58:09. > :58:11.No, we're not seeking to do any form of division in the
:58:11. > :58:16.No, we're not seeking to do any form community. Of course there is going
:58:16. > :58:26.to be a mixture of views in the business community. Of course not
:58:26. > :58:31.everyone is going to be welcoming this. What is in the natural
:58:31. > :58:36.interest and who we need to prioritise, that is important.
:58:36. > :58:41.Businesses want us to ensure we manage public finances in a fiscally
:58:41. > :58:46.responsible way. I am sorry, we had to stop you
:58:46. > :58:48.there. We are almost at the end of the programme.
:58:48. > :58:56.Let's give you the answer to our Guess The Year competition.
:58:56. > :58:59.The correct year was 1960. That's all for now, but don't go away.
:58:59. > :59:06.We're taking a short break, but we'll be back here on BBC Two in an
:59:06. > :59:08.hour's time with live coverage of Ed Miliband's speech. See you then.