:00:36. > :00:48.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. This is a conference
:00:48. > :00:50.special on the Labour Party conference.
:00:50. > :00:54.Price controls on energy, land grabs, higher taxes for big business
:00:54. > :00:55.- have Labour found a winning formula with their populist pitch to
:00:56. > :00:59.voters? Well, his wife loves him. And the
:00:59. > :01:02.Labour party have produced these photographs to prove it. But what do
:01:02. > :01:05.the British people think of Mr Miliband?
:01:05. > :01:12.Ed Balls is sounding sceptical. We ask Labour Party activists if it's
:01:12. > :01:18.time to pull the plug on HS2. And Quentin Letts gives us his take
:01:18. > :01:22.on Labour's week at the seaside. The conference hall has been echoing to
:01:22. > :01:31.the ghostly cries of spirits past, enough to give poor old Ed Mili the
:01:31. > :01:40.willies. All that in the next hour. And with
:01:40. > :01:45.as for the duration today is Deborah Mattinson, who used to do opinion
:01:45. > :01:53.polls for Gordon Brown, and has the scars to show it. She now runs a
:01:53. > :01:58.consultancy called Britain Thinks. Let's start with Ed Miliband's
:01:58. > :02:02.speech, which he says has changed the face of Britain. He spoke for
:02:02. > :02:08.more than an hour. His catchphrase, repeated 17 times, "Britain can do
:02:08. > :02:13.better than this". Amongst the policies he announced, Labour would
:02:13. > :02:18.introduce a 22 month freeze on gas and electricity prices. Not just per
:02:18. > :02:25.household but the businesses as well. We will talk a bit more later
:02:25. > :02:32.about Mr Miliband's position in the political debate and popularity or
:02:32. > :02:36.lack of. Give us your view on the speech. He spoke for an hour without
:02:36. > :02:39.notes last year, so we knew he could do that but last year, the speech
:02:39. > :02:43.was well delivered but very abstract, very hard for politician
:02:43. > :02:47.subsequently to connect that with voters. What he has managed to
:02:47. > :02:51.achieve this time is how very concrete, what I would call symbolic
:02:51. > :02:57.policies, symbolic of his take on the world. You may like it, you may
:02:57. > :03:01.not. Nobody can say, they don't know where he stands. And actually,
:03:01. > :03:06.nobody can say the parties are all the same. And I think he has
:03:06. > :03:10.achieved that and he is achieving a debate, because the big challenge is
:03:10. > :03:14.how you get what happens in the conference hall out there, because
:03:14. > :03:17.the voters do not watch. It is right to think, and all the main political
:03:17. > :03:19.leaders do it now across the democratic world, every one of these
:03:19. > :03:22.propositions, for example, the 20 democratic world, every one of these
:03:22. > :03:29.month freeze on gas and electricity prices, would have been put to focus
:03:29. > :03:37.groups. It most certainly will have been and I gather that in the focus
:03:37. > :03:42.groups where they were tested, the ratings were of the scale. And I can
:03:42. > :03:45.certainly see that, I haven't tested that particular policy but over the
:03:45. > :03:48.years have done a lot of work and I know that one of the big things that
:03:48. > :03:52.people are concerned about is energy prices and prices going up. They
:03:52. > :03:57.can't understand that in the context of the profits that those companies
:03:57. > :04:01.make. There is no question that it has been a popular announcement. And
:04:01. > :04:09.he has made it clear whose side he is on, I think. Good. Jo. Let's get
:04:09. > :04:13.a sense of the mood at conference. We can talk to Sam Coates from the
:04:13. > :04:18.Times and Rafael Behr from the New Statesman. Sam Coates, they loved
:04:18. > :04:25.the speech in the hall, did you love it? Well he achieved what he wanted
:04:25. > :04:30.to, to define himself very much as the centre-left of British politics.
:04:30. > :04:33.He wanted to put clear water between himself and David Cameron and make
:04:33. > :04:40.clear that he is on the left of British politics. He succeeded. What
:04:40. > :04:44.he also did was designed to deploy himself against all sorts of
:04:44. > :04:48.organisations and bits of society that normally you need endorsement
:04:48. > :04:54.from. The CBI have essentially disowned Labour now, as have other
:04:54. > :04:58.business groups, as they think that Labour has basically said they are
:04:58. > :05:02.not involved with enterprise. That was always the risk, wasn't it,
:05:02. > :05:06.Rafael Behr, Ed Miliband setting himself on the sides of voters,
:05:06. > :05:09.promising them something better if they vote for Labour in 2015. Does
:05:09. > :05:12.he risk being painted as they vote for Labour in 2015. Does
:05:12. > :05:19.anti-business? Anti-wealth, in that sense, which many people will argue
:05:19. > :05:23.is needed if the recovery is going to continue? There is certainly that
:05:23. > :05:27.risk, although I would say clearly he has gone into it with his eyes
:05:27. > :05:32.open. If you speak to people around Ed Miliband, they knew this was
:05:32. > :05:36.going to be a big fight and they chose distinctly to set themselves
:05:36. > :05:41.up on the side of consumers against what they see as vested interest. I
:05:41. > :05:45.know there is a crisis in Ed Miliband's brand as a leader, people
:05:45. > :05:48.don't take in that seriously as a potential Prime Minister and one of
:05:48. > :05:51.the things he was trying to do yesterday was changed in framework
:05:51. > :05:56.and parameters of what people think as a leader. He was saying you may
:05:56. > :05:59.think David Cameron is strong but he is strong against the week and I
:05:59. > :06:01.will be strong standing up to the strong, in this case the energy
:06:01. > :06:05.will be strong standing up to the companies or the banks or whoever
:06:05. > :06:12.is. Labour knew they were going to get attacked by parable people but
:06:12. > :06:15.that is kind of the point. What about the other big point, the
:06:15. > :06:18.energy bill freeze for 20 months. That has captured people's
:06:18. > :06:21.attentions, they are picking over the details of whether it will work
:06:21. > :06:27.all the lights will go out, but it was a brave, radical move. Yes, of
:06:27. > :06:31.course, if you ask people if they want to pay less for their energy
:06:31. > :06:35.bills, they will say yes, so it is a popular policy, but as far as energy
:06:35. > :06:40.is concerned, he has to do three things in the next few years if he
:06:40. > :06:44.becomes Prime Minister. One is to deliver the price freeze on the Open
:06:44. > :06:48.market. The second is to hit zero carbon targets and then to nature
:06:48. > :06:51.there is a new generation of power stations and ensure investment takes
:06:51. > :06:55.place, in a world where energy stations and ensure investment takes
:06:55. > :06:58.companies are global and can choose to invest their money in other
:06:58. > :07:04.countries. So I think he has three tasks but he has only chosen to talk
:07:04. > :07:09.about one of them. What happens if in 2017, the reforms not work out as
:07:09. > :07:13.he hoped, there will be a big negative electoral dividend.
:07:13. > :07:19.Already, we are talking about what happens in 2017 if he is elected,
:07:19. > :07:23.but this is already what people are talking about, the practical reality
:07:23. > :07:27.of a Labour Government and what it would do, so this is a win for Ed
:07:27. > :07:32.Miliband already. From that point of view, there are all sorts of detail
:07:32. > :07:34.they want to play out but my sense from speaking to people around Ed
:07:34. > :07:38.Miliband is they knew this was coming, they are very prepared to
:07:38. > :07:42.take this as a campaign onto the doorstep and turn it into leaflets
:07:42. > :07:47.and someone in his office gave me an ice cube, to represent a price
:07:47. > :07:50.freeze. They are turning this into a three-dimensional project to take
:07:50. > :07:52.out on the road, which is a criticism levelled against them in
:07:52. > :07:56.the past, after the one Nation speech last year, there was nothing
:07:56. > :08:02.to follow it up. This is what they call follow-through. Do think there
:08:02. > :08:05.has been a psychological change? A shift in the way people are looking
:08:05. > :08:12.at Ed Miliband and perhaps a future Labour Government? Sam? Speak that
:08:12. > :08:17.is what they want. One of the most interesting things is how the
:08:17. > :08:20.Blairites are discussing what happened yesterday. I spoke to one
:08:20. > :08:29.of them and one of them said they were not sure it was a big policy.
:08:30. > :08:36.Of Jim already has plans to start price controls -- Ofgem already have
:08:36. > :08:42.plans. They are talking about a price cap and on the headline
:08:42. > :08:46.grabbing land policy, it was said but have you not heard of compulsory
:08:46. > :08:48.purchase orders? I wonder if we are getting carried away with the
:08:48. > :08:50.rhetoric of the speech in the way that Ed Miliband wanted and
:08:50. > :08:53.rhetoric of the speech in the way completely forgetting that we are
:08:53. > :08:58.not that far away from an awful lot of these things been possible at the
:08:58. > :09:02.moment. Rafael Behr, how do you think Team Cameron will or should
:09:02. > :09:04.respond? Certainly they need to be quite careful not to go out
:09:04. > :09:07.respond? Certainly they need to be cheerleading for the big energy
:09:07. > :09:11.companies, which are generally very unpopular. My understanding is that
:09:11. > :09:14.next week they are not going to use their conference to rebut anything
:09:14. > :09:17.Labour have been saying, they are just going to say they have a record
:09:17. > :09:21.of fixing the economy, they are working on it and it has been tough
:09:21. > :09:23.but they are making the right decisions. They will save their
:09:23. > :09:30.attacks on this kind of stuff and addressing the cost of living until
:09:30. > :09:32.the Autumn statements. They will have a bit of fun, they like
:09:32. > :09:35.attacking Ed Miliband as a lefty. I'm sure they will mention red Ed
:09:35. > :09:38.more than once. Now it's time for our daily quiz.
:09:38. > :09:44.Today's question is what happened next? You might have heard former
:09:44. > :09:48.Labour spin doctor Damian McBride has been doing the media rounds in
:09:48. > :09:54.Brighton this week. I am told he has a book to sell! Heery was preparing
:09:54. > :09:58.for a live interview on ITV yesterday morning that here he was.
:09:58. > :10:01.So what happened next? At the end of the show, Deborah will give us the
:10:01. > :10:05.correct answer. And I bet you know. I do know.
:10:05. > :10:10.The days of Labour schmoozing company bosses with prawn sandwiches
:10:10. > :10:13.are over. In his speech yesterday, Ed Miliband had a much tougher
:10:13. > :10:17.message for businesses. His hope is that voters will see him as a kind
:10:17. > :10:20.of Robin Hood figure, taking from rich companies to help ordinary
:10:20. > :10:23.people. But what exactly does he have in mind? And will it work? Jo
:10:24. > :10:27.has more. The first target was the energy
:10:27. > :10:30.companies, with the promise to freeze bills until 2017 if Labour
:10:31. > :10:34.wins the election. "The companies aren't going to like
:10:34. > :10:37.this," he said, "because it will cost them more, but they've been
:10:37. > :10:41.overcharging people for too long in a market that doesn't work."
:10:41. > :10:44.He also took aim at property developers who own land with
:10:44. > :10:49.planning permission but won't build. They were told it would be a case of
:10:49. > :10:51."use the land or lose the land". Large companies will not get the
:10:51. > :10:56.corporation tax cut they were Large companies will not get the
:10:56. > :10:59.expecting if Labour win. Ed Miliband accused them of short-changing small
:10:59. > :11:03.businesses and promised it was something he would put right.
:11:03. > :11:07.And he said that, under Labour, companies would face a higher
:11:07. > :11:10.minimum wage to defeat low pay. Joining us now to discuss some of
:11:10. > :11:16.these ideas is John Cridland, Director-General of the CBI. John
:11:16. > :11:21.Cridland, welcome to the programme. Isn't Ed Miliband right to say that
:11:21. > :11:27.the minimum wage hasn't kept up the cost of living? It hasn't, so should
:11:27. > :11:30.it be increased? It hasn't up because employers and trade unions
:11:30. > :11:33.on the low pay commission took the view that it was better to keep
:11:33. > :11:37.people in their job earning something than pricing them out of
:11:37. > :11:42.employment. Those are the real hard choices. Do you think it would have
:11:42. > :11:47.that effect if the minimum wage was put up, increased, in two years'
:11:47. > :11:55.time? Absolutely, because the people on the minimum wage are the ones
:11:55. > :11:59.with the least skills and police productivity. The best thing is to
:11:59. > :12:03.get them into the job and with the best employers, progress up the
:12:03. > :12:07.business once they have a foot in the door. I minimum wage is price
:12:07. > :12:12.people out of work. -- a high minimum wage. That is not to say
:12:12. > :12:16.that as the economy improves, wages won't go up, they will. But do we
:12:16. > :12:22.need the Government to control wages, prices, assets and taxing
:12:22. > :12:25.businesses more? Labour would argue we are in a cost of living crisis
:12:25. > :12:30.and many people are feeling the pain, even as growth returns. As you
:12:30. > :12:36.have admitted, wages are not keeping up with inflation. Is it right the
:12:36. > :12:43.taxpayers should subsidise people on low play because employers will not
:12:43. > :12:48.pay them enough -- Lope? Employers pay what they can afford to pay
:12:48. > :12:54.according to the income they get from consumers. If a shoeshine on
:12:54. > :13:01.the high Street -- a shoe shop on a high street as wages going up by 1p
:13:01. > :13:06.per hour, the pass the cost on to who? It is not one particular thing
:13:06. > :13:11.in his speech that disappointed me, it was all other things. Added
:13:11. > :13:18.together, this is a real setback for Labour's pro-credentials. --
:13:18. > :13:21.pro-enterprise credentials. We want Labour to speak for all business,
:13:21. > :13:28.not beta sub and then say it is speaking for small business and
:13:28. > :13:32.attacking large business. But all businesses are not the same, and big
:13:32. > :13:36.businesses have arguably been sitting on big piles of cash, they
:13:36. > :13:39.haven't been investing. Small businesses have been struggling. Are
:13:39. > :13:45.you saying they are not the lifeline as the economy -- of the economy, as
:13:45. > :13:50.Ed Miliband and David Cameron has said, and have not been able to get
:13:50. > :13:54.credit from the banks? I speak for all businesses. The vast majority of
:13:54. > :13:58.CBI members are small, I have a medium-sized companies and large
:13:58. > :14:02.companies, and they speak with one voice. They like the public, like
:14:02. > :14:07.the citizen and consumer, have had a tough time. They make decisions on
:14:07. > :14:11.the basis of keeping their business afloat. The Government is there to
:14:11. > :14:15.set minimum standards. If you begin interfering in price, property and
:14:15. > :14:19.wage as well as tax and you push business taxes up. How do you expect
:14:19. > :14:24.that to have a positive impact on wealth creation, job creation and
:14:24. > :14:29.more jobs on the high street? Are you saying big business cannot
:14:29. > :14:32.afford a delayed reduction in corporate tax but small businesses
:14:32. > :14:38.can afford to pay business rates which are way beyond their means? I
:14:38. > :14:40.am pleased that the Labour Party is focused on business rates. The CBI
:14:40. > :14:43.is focused on reducing business focused on business rates. The CBI
:14:43. > :14:48.rates, but I don't think it is the right call to fund that through an
:14:48. > :14:52.increase in corporation tax. It is a delayed reaction. It is an increase
:14:52. > :14:57.over what business has been told by the current Government, it would be
:14:57. > :15:02.in 2015. If business believes that corporation tax is going to be at
:15:02. > :15:09.20p, it has more retaining earnings to invest in factories, jobs and
:15:09. > :15:11.increasing wages. If it goes up to 21p, it has less money to help with
:15:11. > :15:12.living standards. John Cridland, thank you.
:15:12. > :15:15.living standards. John Cridland, We're joined now from Brighton by
:15:15. > :15:22.the Shadow Education Secretary Stephen Twigg. Thank you be joining
:15:22. > :15:27.us. Hello, Andrew. Let's stick with the gas and electricity price
:15:27. > :15:31.freeze. Undoubtedly a very popular policy to announce, people will like
:15:31. > :15:34.it and they will think that gas bills are too high. Let me ask you
:15:34. > :15:40.this, if the energy market in Britain is as dysfunctional as your
:15:40. > :15:47.party is claiming it to be, why does Britain have some of the lowest gas
:15:47. > :15:52.and electricity prices in Europe? We have seen a massive increase in gas
:15:52. > :15:56.and electricity prices. The wholesale price of gas and
:15:56. > :15:58.electricity goes up, the retail price goes up bad when it falls we
:15:58. > :16:01.electricity goes up, the retail have not seen the same fall. The
:16:01. > :16:08.market is not functioning properly and this is a reformed to make it
:16:08. > :16:11.function properly. I understand there are bits where it could be
:16:11. > :16:16.much improved and it does not work properly. But if it is as bad as you
:16:16. > :16:22.say, why are gas and lectures are two prices among the lowest in
:16:22. > :16:26.Europe? -- and electricity prices? I don't think it is the issue when we
:16:26. > :16:29.have seen enormous increases and we have seen increases in the profits
:16:30. > :16:34.of the big six companies. The consumers are having to pay more and
:16:34. > :16:39.that is what we have to sort out. This is a 20 month freeze, if Labour
:16:39. > :16:46.wins in 2015, so we can sort out the gas and electricity market. The
:16:46. > :16:50.Ofgem figures show that on electricity prices we have the third
:16:50. > :16:55.lowest in western Europe. Only Finland, France and Greece have
:16:56. > :17:03.lower prices. On gas prices, we are the cheapest, by a huge amount. Is
:17:03. > :17:09.it suggested that there is not scope for us to reform the market? There
:17:09. > :17:14.is always scope but my point to you is that if the market is functioning
:17:14. > :17:22.so badly, why do we do better than almost anybody else in Europe?
:17:22. > :17:25.But we can do better still. Countries like France, what are they
:17:25. > :17:30.doing right? We have a market that simply isn't working. The difference
:17:30. > :17:36.between Paris and London is very small. The reality for families,
:17:36. > :17:41.hard-pressed families, the reality is they have seen these big rises,
:17:41. > :17:45.even when the wholesale price has been falling. They haven't been
:17:45. > :17:50.getting the benefit. There must be something going wrong. It is not a
:17:50. > :17:53.proper, competitive market. We want to reform the energy market so it is
:17:53. > :17:59.properly competitive and consumers benefit, it must make sense. It is
:17:59. > :18:04.May 2015, you have won the election, you bring in a gas and elected to
:18:04. > :18:10.price freeze. It is October 2015 and the Middle East is in chaos, or your
:18:10. > :18:11.prices spike, gas prices spike, what do you do then -- or you'll prices
:18:11. > :18:20.spike. It is a very hypothetical question
:18:20. > :18:25.and if they prices happens, you have to address that. The reality is the
:18:26. > :18:30.big six are making enormous profits and not passing on the benefits to
:18:30. > :18:33.customers and the market needs to be reformed. A crisis may happen but
:18:33. > :18:40.the reality is they are hoarding these enormous profits. What is the
:18:40. > :18:48.average rate of return on capital of one of the big six? I don't know the
:18:48. > :18:51.answer. How can you claim they are making big profits? Are you saying
:18:51. > :18:55.they're not making big profits? Everyone knows they are making big
:18:55. > :19:03.profits. You don't, you can't tell me. , police -- companies like
:19:03. > :19:09.Centrica are often the ones who invest the least. I don't think the
:19:09. > :19:13.idea is -- of less investment is borne out by the fact. It is about
:19:13. > :19:18.reforming the market and that is good for consumers. It Centrica is
:19:18. > :19:25.making such huge profits, what is their return on investments? You are
:19:25. > :19:30.asking me the same question. I have said I do not know how to answer
:19:30. > :19:34.that question. It is about consumers getting their fair share. You are
:19:34. > :19:35.making claims about the company and you don't know what they make. I
:19:35. > :19:41.think you need to do your homework. you don't know what they make. I
:19:41. > :19:46.We have done our homework. We published a document yesterday
:19:46. > :19:50.setting out in great detail the basis for these plans. These are
:19:50. > :19:56.well thought through plans and we have taken very sound advice. Let me
:19:56. > :20:02.tell you this, the return on investment in Centrica is lower than
:20:02. > :20:08.the return on investment at Tesco. So why don't you introduce food
:20:08. > :20:15.price controls? Come on, energy prices have gone up enormously. So
:20:15. > :20:21.have food prices. You can't draw a sound parallel. It is a completely
:20:21. > :20:27.different scenario. Let me move on. Minimum wage. Is Labour going to
:20:28. > :20:31.increase the minimum wage? The minimum wage needs to be
:20:31. > :20:36.strengthened and Ed Miliband has strengthened out ways to do that.
:20:37. > :20:38.Increasingly finds for those who don't pay the minimum wage. --
:20:38. > :20:49.increasing the finds. One of the new things we have said
:20:49. > :20:52.is that in some sectors, it would be possible to have a minimum wage
:20:52. > :20:55.higher than the national minimum wage and we want that to be
:20:55. > :21:00.considered and we are going to look into that. Strength and is a
:21:00. > :21:08.different verb from increase, will Labour increase the minimum wage --
:21:08. > :21:15.strengthen is a different verb. It has increased less than the general
:21:15. > :21:21.rate of wages. We have a low pay commission that we set up to
:21:21. > :21:25.independently determine whether the minimum wage goes up. We have said
:21:25. > :21:28.there are sectors where it could be afforded to pay a higher minimum
:21:28. > :21:33.wage and we would look at how that would operate. On this land grab you
:21:33. > :21:37.are talking about, taking land back from developers who haven't built on
:21:37. > :21:43.that land, can you explain how it would work best mark would you
:21:43. > :21:50.compulsory purchase the land? You have to pay market rate? Would the
:21:50. > :21:53.government by the land? We want to strengthen the role for local
:21:53. > :21:57.communities including local government, that does include
:21:57. > :22:01.greater use of compulsory purchase. We have announced April to pull on
:22:01. > :22:05.this and we need to consult further on the detail to get it right. It
:22:05. > :22:09.cannot be right at a time and we have a housing crisis in this
:22:09. > :22:13.country, people unable to afford to buy, a shortage of housing for rent,
:22:13. > :22:18.that we have big developers hoarding land, waiting for the value to go
:22:18. > :22:23.up, when people are unable to get a home. What evidence do you have that
:22:23. > :22:29.big developers are hoarding land? We have evidence from local authorities
:22:29. > :22:35.and a whole range of organisations. What studies have you done? What
:22:35. > :22:39.study shows this? We have not commissioned our own study but there
:22:39. > :22:43.has been researched by housing organisations like Shelter that
:22:43. > :22:50.campaign on homelessness issues, the local government Association, this
:22:50. > :22:52.is a sensible, practical, concrete measure to try to ensure we can get
:22:52. > :23:06.house building up. You mentioned local authorities, the
:23:06. > :23:10.local government authority which covers all authorities did a study
:23:10. > :23:12.of this in 2011, it is called the Glen Egan report. It found there was
:23:12. > :23:21.not hoarding. Half of the homes were Glen Egan report. It found there was
:23:21. > :23:27.under construction, 83,000 were social housing. They were awaiting
:23:27. > :23:31.government money for starting them for the bid found no evidence of
:23:31. > :23:41.hoarding and neither did the OS to study under your government in 2008.
:23:41. > :23:47.-- the Office of Fair Trading study. That was five years ago, things have
:23:47. > :23:50.got a lot worse. I was in Oxford last week talking to people from
:23:50. > :23:54.Oxford City Council who were talking about this exact issue and
:23:54. > :23:59.suggesting the kind of issue that Ed Miliband has set out. I think the
:23:59. > :24:02.evidence is there but it is right that we consult to make sure we
:24:02. > :24:08.commend this properly. Thanks for joining us.
:24:08. > :24:12.And we're joined now by Angela Knight of Energy UK - the
:24:12. > :24:16.organisation that represents energy companies. Welcome to the programme.
:24:16. > :24:20.Ed Miliband is right to say that the energy market is not functioning
:24:20. > :24:26.properly, isn't he? I don't think he is but that doesn't mean you can't
:24:26. > :24:30.make it function better. The gas market works extremely well, the
:24:30. > :24:33.electricity market, there has been a lot of intervention. Some of the
:24:33. > :24:36.initiatives and policy issues have rather skewed the market. The
:24:37. > :24:42.questions we have to answer, and there is some work on this going on
:24:42. > :24:46.right now, is how can one improve the markets? It is easy to say they
:24:46. > :24:52.are bust, they are not bust but what improvements can be made? One of the
:24:52. > :24:54.improvements is if the energy generating companies were forced to
:24:54. > :25:03.split from electricity Supply Company is, that would be fairer --
:25:03. > :25:07.letters to supply companies -- electricity supply companies. They
:25:07. > :25:13.cannot compete with companies who generate their own electricity. I
:25:13. > :25:19.don't agree with you. Companies trying to enter the market say they
:25:19. > :25:22.cannot break into the market. If you look at what is happening on the
:25:22. > :25:25.market, whether you are an integrated company or not, the
:25:25. > :25:32.electricity market is extraordinary liquid. It is because it alleges it
:25:32. > :25:36.is going on to the market and it is available to be purchased -- it is
:25:36. > :25:40.because electricity is going onto the market. The question is whether
:25:40. > :25:45.there are changes which could make it longer ahead, that market. It is
:25:45. > :25:49.not a question of integrated or not but how a market works. If you are a
:25:49. > :25:53.new company having to purchase it, they have to purchase at a far
:25:53. > :25:58.higher price. They can't afford to do it. There is a wholesale market
:25:58. > :26:03.price, it is published and open. So that isn't the case. You would not
:26:03. > :26:08.say that it is unfair if a supermarket owns farms, so the meat
:26:08. > :26:15.produced in the farms are sold at the supermarket. Of course it is not
:26:15. > :26:18.unfair. What is absolutely required is strong transparency, that is
:26:18. > :26:23.fine, accounting in the separate parts of the organisation. The
:26:23. > :26:29.numbers are made public, which they are, to Ofgem. You need new entrants
:26:29. > :26:30.into the market, we have a lot of independent generators and
:26:30. > :26:35.increasingly new suppliers are coming onto the market. You don't
:26:35. > :26:42.have that if a market doesn't work. So let's make it work better, not
:26:42. > :26:45.pretend it is broken. Labour is suggesting it does not work on
:26:45. > :26:52.behalf of the consumer. On the half of the consumer, they think the
:26:52. > :26:55.market is asked. They have focus grouped these policies and it was
:26:55. > :27:02.stratospherically yacht lost the trust of the public -- you have lost
:27:02. > :27:06.the trust of the public. It was stratospherically against you. Some
:27:07. > :27:11.of it must come down to the behaviour of the big six. Why have
:27:11. > :27:16.the big six energy companies risen so much in recent years? The
:27:16. > :27:22.organisation represents many more than the big six. The big six were
:27:22. > :27:26.being talked about. We recognise the important part of trust and the fact
:27:26. > :27:30.that trust has been lost and needs to be rebuilt. The profits that have
:27:30. > :27:36.risen are not offered, it is the operating margin. It is the amount
:27:36. > :27:40.-- the profits that have risen are actually not profit. The actual
:27:41. > :27:45.profit is around the 5% mark. The return on capital employed is not
:27:45. > :27:53.high. They invested £11 billion last year. The big six invested £11
:27:53. > :27:57.billion? Last year, it has to be paid for. If you -- unless we
:27:57. > :28:01.recognise we have to make some money, you don't get the
:28:01. > :28:06.investment. Sure, companies have to make profit. But let's have a look
:28:07. > :28:13.on the British Gas has seen profits rise 3% in the first half of this
:28:13. > :28:18.year to make £356 million. Centrica saw half-year profits soar by 9% to
:28:18. > :28:23.1.58 billion pounds. These are eye watering figures for consumers who
:28:23. > :28:26.just see their bills go up and up. Can you say how much the big six
:28:26. > :28:33.company 's are going to put up their energy bills next month? They will,
:28:33. > :28:43.went there? You have to ask them for a emotional -- a commercial
:28:43. > :28:52.decision. When I have but these figures to you... Can I not answer
:28:52. > :28:58.the previous question? British Gas raised prices by 6% last November
:28:58. > :29:01.who are already seeing cost of living squeezed and the speculation
:29:02. > :29:07.is it is going to go up 8% next month. It is three times the rate of
:29:07. > :29:12.inflation. I am going to do the profit question first. On average,
:29:12. > :29:16.about 5%, about £1 per week for every household. It is less than
:29:16. > :29:18.most supermarkets. Yet the investment programme is one of the
:29:19. > :29:23.biggest investment programmes in the country. That is the first point.
:29:23. > :29:26.The second point, on your bill is a whole series of pass-through charges
:29:26. > :29:33.and they have been going up. The network renewal pro gram, the wires,
:29:33. > :29:38.the pipes, the policies of the green deals -- network renewal programme.
:29:38. > :29:45.All of it gets pass-through onto the bill. The world price of energy and
:29:45. > :29:50.gas is as it is and that is another thing that comes through on the
:29:50. > :29:55.bill. The actual proportion which the energy company has control of is
:29:55. > :30:00.probably about 19% at a whole lot sits on the bill and they get the
:30:00. > :30:04.blame. -- but a whole lots it's on the bill. Rebuilding trust is
:30:04. > :30:10.important but it is also important to talk about the issues from end to
:30:10. > :30:13.end. Where is this big investment in energy coming from? All of the
:30:13. > :30:17.energy companies are withdrawing investment. We have not built a new
:30:18. > :30:23.nuclear plant for years, Centrica has announced it is not going to go
:30:23. > :30:26.ahead with two new gas plants. The two German companies have withdrawn
:30:26. > :30:33.their investment. Where is this great investment in energy coming
:30:33. > :30:40.from? A large amount has come from building wind farms. That is your
:30:40. > :30:46.ansa? We are leading the world. Denmark and Germany have a lot
:30:46. > :30:52.more. In offshore wind farms... They are very expensive. We are not
:30:52. > :30:56.building gas stations, we are not building nuclear stations. The
:30:56. > :31:01.energy companies are making profits and not reinvesting them. They are
:31:01. > :31:04.reinvesting them. They are reinvesting them in what it is that
:31:04. > :31:10.the policy has told them to reinvest in. And I think you are absolutely
:31:10. > :31:18.right, we should be building more gas fire power stations. But you are
:31:18. > :31:21.threatening to do the opposite. Prices are artificially low and we
:31:21. > :31:24.end up with an odd and where they are too high for individuals, to
:31:24. > :31:32.local companies. Why can't we discuss it properly cushy mark are
:31:32. > :31:37.you convinced by this? Will this when anybody over? Know, and I think
:31:37. > :31:39.energy companies have a huge amount of work to do. Bringing it back to
:31:39. > :31:45.the consumer, this isn't nice to have. It is heating or eating.
:31:45. > :31:48.Struggling to get through the week or the month. These are big bills
:31:48. > :31:52.that make a big difference and the gas companies know that. It is not
:31:52. > :31:56.just politicians that do focus groups, oil companies do that as
:31:56. > :31:59.well. They know that and the fact they are not responding better
:31:59. > :32:04.suggests the market is not working as well as they think. You are
:32:04. > :32:07.right, the concern about the bills is fundamental and they have gone
:32:07. > :32:11.up, there is no getting away from it. There are real reasons for it
:32:11. > :32:12.and there is no point saying, it is you're pulled, it is you're pulled.
:32:12. > :32:18.and there is no point saying, it is Prices have gone up, you can get
:32:18. > :32:23.welfare assistance the food but not energy, that comes back through the
:32:23. > :32:28.companies. What have you done in your life that you have spent part
:32:28. > :32:36.of your life defending banks and now energy companies? I am a believer in
:32:36. > :32:39.British industry. I'm a believer in companies producing some of the
:32:39. > :32:43.great goods and services that we want and I have given you an
:32:43. > :32:48.answer. Deborah Mattinson, does it matter to Labour is big business
:32:48. > :32:53.says we are going to move away from the Labour Party? I think Ed
:32:53. > :32:56.Miliband has positioned it carefully, talking about what he's
:32:56. > :33:00.going to do for small businesses. It is good to have the debate, because
:33:00. > :33:02.that is the way he's going to get the story out and big business has a
:33:02. > :33:06.that is the way he's going to get lot to do for its own reputation at
:33:06. > :33:09.the moment, so it is a debate worth having thank you.
:33:09. > :33:14.the moment, so it is a debate worth I am sure we will come back to it.
:33:14. > :33:18.So there was plenty of policy from the Labour leader yesterday, but
:33:18. > :33:22.he'll so tackle the issues of his personal character to compare his
:33:22. > :33:26.character with that of the Prime Minister -- he also. If you want to
:33:26. > :33:31.know the difference between me and David Cameron, he is an easy way to
:33:31. > :33:36.remember it. When it was Murdoch versus the McCanns, he took the side
:33:36. > :33:39.of Murdoch. When it was a tobacco lobby against the cancer charities,
:33:39. > :33:43.he took the side of the tobacco lobby. When it was the millionaires
:33:44. > :33:46.who wanted the tax-cut versus people paying the bedroom tax, he took the
:33:46. > :33:49.who wanted the tax-cut versus people side of the millionaires. Come to
:33:49. > :33:53.think of it, he is an even easier way to remember it. David Cameron is
:33:53. > :33:57.a Prime Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I will be the Prime
:33:57. > :34:01.Minister who repeals the bedroom tax.
:34:01. > :34:08.Here's the thing about David Cameron. He may be strong at
:34:08. > :34:14.standing up to the week, but he is always weak when it comes to
:34:14. > :34:18.standing up against the strong. That is the difference between me and
:34:18. > :34:24.David Cameron, so let's have that debate about leadership and
:34:24. > :34:28.character and I relish that debate. Joining me now from Brighton, former
:34:28. > :34:32.adviser to Tony Blair, John McTiernan. You used to be in the
:34:32. > :34:38.vanguard of new Labour, that was then and this is no, it is over,
:34:38. > :34:42.isn't it? It is a different time. New Labour was for its time and what
:34:42. > :34:48.Ed Miliband is doing is for our time. I think you know, there are a
:34:48. > :34:55.lot of angry, grumpy middle-class people out there in Britain that are
:34:55. > :35:03.being appealed to buy UKIP but are also available to Ed's populism of
:35:03. > :35:12.the left. I think what was done previously is not available and Ed
:35:12. > :35:18.Miliband has chosen to gone back and where he has and attacking energy
:35:18. > :35:22.companies, very few members of the public will be saying energy
:35:22. > :35:25.companies are great and my bills are fine and I completely understand.
:35:25. > :35:32.You think Ed Miliband is going for the centre ground? Yes. The squeezed
:35:32. > :35:35.middle, who are the centre ground of politics, they are angry and they
:35:35. > :35:41.are detached from politics and looking for somewhere to go. The
:35:41. > :35:43.propositions that Ed Miliband made yesterday that will get people back
:35:43. > :35:51.to work or building houses, houses for your kids, all of it adds up to
:35:51. > :35:55.appeal to middle England, middle-class England, saying we can
:35:55. > :35:58.be radical and we can break through this and to say what David Cameron
:35:58. > :36:03.has done, in my view incredibly stupid, is abandon optimism. He is a
:36:03. > :36:09.pessimist about Britain and Ed Miliband has said we can do better.
:36:09. > :36:12.It has allowed Ed to be the positive optimistic person in politics and
:36:12. > :36:16.yesterday was a very important speech, the battle ground for the
:36:16. > :36:21.next election. Not of us have heard Mr Cameron next week, so we don't
:36:21. > :36:25.know if that is true. Let me ask you this, do you think that Mr
:36:25. > :36:28.Miliband's speech, where he did lay out a new set of policies that were
:36:29. > :36:35.distinctive policies, they were more on the left and New Labour in a
:36:35. > :36:40.number of ways, is that the start up fight back and do you expect to see
:36:40. > :36:45.a widening once again of Labour's lead in the polls and an improvement
:36:45. > :36:50.in Mr Miliband's personal ratings? Look, I think on the polls, Labour
:36:50. > :36:55.is going to stay there or thereabouts on 38% between now and
:36:55. > :36:59.the next election. With the Tories on 34, Labour wins, particularly
:36:59. > :37:08.with UKIP in the game. Labour has got the votes it needing -- needs
:37:08. > :37:11.and I suspect we will hold them. Talking about Ed Miliband's
:37:11. > :37:16.character, this is the card but the Tories want to play, but he doesn't
:37:16. > :37:19.look like a Prime Minister. The truth is that that has resonance, it
:37:19. > :37:22.comes up in the groups. Ed knows that, that his wife he said
:37:22. > :37:28.yesterday it is not just what you look like, it is how you act -- that
:37:28. > :37:31.is why he said. So it is OK to be strong against the week but what
:37:31. > :37:38.about talking about vested interests? He made a big call on
:37:38. > :37:42.Murdoch which was right and popular. He's not just saying what you look
:37:42. > :37:45.like, conceding that he does not look like a traditional Prime
:37:45. > :37:50.Minister, it is how you act as well, it is words and values and actions.
:37:50. > :37:54.I think Ed was never going to get to the next election without addressing
:37:54. > :37:58.this issue and he has decided to do it in this way, conceding that you
:37:58. > :38:05.don't think I might be the Prime Minister at the moment, but let me
:38:05. > :38:08.show you what I will do and let me remind you of my actions and my
:38:08. > :38:10.character. It is very similar to what happened in Australia when Tony
:38:10. > :38:14.Abbott was never the preferred Prime Minister until the very end of the
:38:14. > :38:19.campaign, but his party was in the lead for a long time. It is staking
:38:19. > :38:24.out a ground to fight on. I don't think the Tories are going to ditch
:38:24. > :38:27.Mr Cameron the way that Labour in Australia ditched their leader just
:38:27. > :38:32.a few weeks before the election, so I am not sure the comparison is
:38:32. > :38:37.relevant. I have to say, I want this clarity. It seems to me, I maybe
:38:37. > :38:42.wrong, but you are saying that yesterday's speech we should regard
:38:42. > :38:48.a watershed in how we now look at Labour's fortunes going up to the
:38:48. > :38:53.election? Yesterday's speech, taken with Ed Balls's speech, what has now
:38:53. > :38:57.been set out is the Labour strategy for the time between now and the
:38:57. > :39:01.election. Labour's mission, Labour's values and the ground on
:39:01. > :39:07.which Labour are going to fight. That is absolutely clear, so it is a
:39:07. > :39:13.watershed. Ed Miliband is not Tony Blair, but he can only be the leader
:39:13. > :39:17.he needs to be to become Prime Minister by not being mesmerised by
:39:17. > :39:22.the past. That was Tony's great strength, he was never in thrall to
:39:22. > :39:25.any previous leader. We looked at Thatcher and moved beyond. Ed
:39:25. > :39:31.Miliband has looked at Tony and moved beyond. And I think it was a
:39:31. > :39:35.watershed. Let me bring in Deborah Mattinson, who has been listening
:39:35. > :39:39.here. John says that the polls may well stay quite static with Labour
:39:39. > :39:45.on about 38, the Tories on about 34. They vary a bit, but that is a rough
:39:45. > :39:48.average of where we are. At this stage in the political cycle, if you
:39:48. > :39:53.were a Labour strategist, wouldn't you want to be a bit more ahead?
:39:53. > :39:57.Wouldn't you want a comfort zone, a marginal safety? Because quite
:39:57. > :40:01.often, the polls narrow as you go into an election. Historically, you
:40:01. > :40:05.would have done, but that was then and this is now. Some of the points
:40:05. > :40:09.that John makes about the different electoral landscape now are
:40:09. > :40:15.absolutely spot on. If we look at some of the polling that has been
:40:15. > :40:17.conducted recently, for instance launch Ashcroft's massive poll, the
:40:17. > :40:23.only guy spending serious money on polling and looking at the margins,
:40:23. > :40:26.he concluded at a Labour fringe meeting saying this, saying that it
:40:27. > :40:32.Labour stayed exactly as they are, they couldn't do anything but win.
:40:32. > :40:36.That is axiomatic, because they are ahead in the polls, that is like
:40:36. > :40:40.saying night follows day. Of course if they stay where they are, they
:40:40. > :40:47.will win. But he said that looking at the electoral landscape right now
:40:47. > :40:54.is the most likely outcome, the key has -- because you have the right of
:40:54. > :40:59.centre voter divided with UKIP, so therefore if Ed's primary task is to
:40:59. > :41:00.hang on to, as it were the left of centre voters and get them to turn
:41:00. > :41:04.hang on to, as it were the left of out, that is the start point. Of
:41:04. > :41:10.course, he would hope to do better, he needs to be more ambitious. John
:41:10. > :41:13.MacKinnon, thank you be joining us. It was Labour's idea that earlier
:41:13. > :41:18.this week the shadow Chancellor Ed Balls appeared to question the
:41:18. > :41:22.party's ongoing support for HS2, the new high-speed rail line that will
:41:22. > :41:25.link north and south. He said speaking £50 billion, what it is
:41:25. > :41:30.projected to become a may not be a good idea. We sent Adam out with his
:41:30. > :41:34.balls to see whether it should be full steam ahead for the project or
:41:34. > :41:39.was it time to slam on the brakes? The message from Labour this week on
:41:39. > :41:42.HS2 has been a bit mixed, but what will delegates here think about it
:41:42. > :41:46.could will they want to construct it or cancel it?
:41:46. > :41:50.I say construct. The southern end of the West Coast mainline is full, so
:41:50. > :41:54.if you're going to build a new one, it may as well be that. I don't
:41:54. > :42:02.think it is the right one. I think we need a massive investment in
:42:02. > :42:09.railways but not this railway. Speakergreen issue can be is is it
:42:09. > :42:13.part of a wider transport strategy... -- or is it just part of
:42:13. > :42:20.a build between London and Manchester. My own personal one
:42:20. > :42:23.would be the dream. I'm going to go with HS2, because places like China
:42:23. > :42:27.and other countries, they have amazing networks and are miles ahead
:42:27. > :42:33.and we will be left behind in the race for infrastructure.
:42:33. > :42:36.I just think £50 billion could be better spent on schools and
:42:36. > :42:41.hospitals. But it is £50 billion better spent on schools and
:42:41. > :42:48.over loads and loads of years. Isn't it? 20 years? Yes, well, I was still
:42:48. > :42:53.rather spend it on that, but then I am in the south. You have plenty of
:42:53. > :42:59.railways. Any friends in Manchester? Not really, and I probably won't get
:42:59. > :43:04.any after this. It is causing widespread devastation in Camden, we
:43:04. > :43:09.are losing 480 homes, a school and open space. It will have a massive
:43:09. > :43:13.detrimental impact on Camden Town, a large destination for tourists. You
:43:13. > :43:20.think Ed Balls will cancel it? It sounds as though he once do. Will he
:43:20. > :43:29.get a slap on the wrist? He needs to be reminded that it is about
:43:29. > :43:33.capacity and the future. You are anti it? Why cancel it? It is not
:43:34. > :43:37.going to do anything in the north. They wouldn't build it in the north.
:43:37. > :43:46.They use it in the north to say you can have 20 minutes on a train to
:43:46. > :43:51.Birmingham. There will be a complication on the railways around
:43:51. > :43:54.the country. My friend lives in Manchester and says it will be
:43:54. > :44:09.handy. Some high-speed balls are escaping. This document is basically
:44:09. > :44:11.the latest polling on HS2. I know your balls are extremely scientific
:44:12. > :44:16.but I think this might be slightly more, showing that 60% of Labour
:44:16. > :44:23.voters are against HS2. So basically, we should just throw in
:44:23. > :44:30.this piece of paper and go home? Oh, dear. That is quite a shocking
:44:30. > :44:32.development. I think we will call it a day, it is impossible to work out
:44:32. > :44:36.which ball went in which box. I a day, it is impossible to work out
:44:36. > :44:40.would say it is slightly in favour of construction. The only thing that
:44:40. > :44:45.is getting cancelled here is the box.
:44:45. > :44:48.What a tragic end to the mood box. He is upset.
:44:48. > :44:53.Don't worry, we still love you, Adam. Don't you worry about that
:44:53. > :44:55.nasty little box, we will get you a new one?
:44:55. > :45:00.Giving people picked them up for him just left them? Or slipped over on
:45:00. > :45:07.them? It will survive! Deborah Mattinson, due think it is over for
:45:08. > :45:11.HS2? What surprised me in focus groups recently is when I have asked
:45:11. > :45:16.people about the economy and where savings can be made, and I haven't
:45:16. > :45:22.set out to ask them what they think about HS2, they have just told me
:45:22. > :45:26.that they question the value, but they are worried about the scale of
:45:26. > :45:30.it going up. They question the value at a time when everyone is being
:45:30. > :45:35.asked to tighten their belts. One thing that is quite interesting is
:45:35. > :45:37.people are starting to compare it with the Millennium Dome. What does
:45:37. > :45:41.this say about the Government, that they are spending this money? We
:45:41. > :45:45.think it is a waste of time, they are not listening. Does that mean
:45:45. > :45:48.that Ed Balls and Rachel Reeves's change of tone, whether they are
:45:48. > :45:51.slowly slamming on the brakes, because they are listening to the
:45:51. > :46:03.focus groups or is it just politically opportunist? They
:46:03. > :46:07.could, with Tory rebels, defeated? They are looking to see where the
:46:07. > :46:12.best value is and they are right to query it. They were so behind this
:46:12. > :46:15.scheme in the first place. Danny query it. They were so behind this
:46:15. > :46:20.Alexander has just been asked about it and he has said, in 30 years
:46:20. > :46:27.time, people will ask what the fuss was about. We need it and it must go
:46:27. > :46:33.ahead. They are not saying it now. Right now, people are looking at HS2
:46:33. > :46:38.and whilst they think it might be something that would be nice, they
:46:38. > :46:42.are wondering, can we afford it? They will have a backlash in the
:46:42. > :46:53.North, Labour councils have said they are very... The focus groups I
:46:53. > :46:57.spoke to were not just in the South. Apparently John Prescott has been
:46:57. > :47:05.against it but whether he has been so publicly explicit about it, have
:47:05. > :47:08.not heard that. And he will definitely be categorised as being
:47:08. > :47:16.from the north, I am quite sure of that. A short time ago, the Shadow
:47:16. > :47:20.Home Secretary - Yvette Cooper - was addressing Conference. Let's have a
:47:20. > :47:24.listen to what she had to say. This government is failing victims of
:47:24. > :47:26.crime, undermining the police, dividing communities, failing to
:47:26. > :47:31.deal with the challenges of the future, be it crime or immigration.
:47:31. > :47:36.Turning their backs, walking away and looking for someone else to
:47:36. > :47:40.blame. Remember their promise, that the big flagship reform of police
:47:40. > :47:47.and crime commission elections would deliver a democratic mandate? And
:47:47. > :47:50.just 15% of voters turned out. Where is Theresa May when the terror
:47:50. > :47:56.just 15% of voters turned out. Where suspect goes missing? Or the border
:47:56. > :48:01.controls collapse? Or the elections fall flat? Quick to claim credit
:48:01. > :48:06.when things go right, strangely absent when things go wrong.
:48:06. > :48:12.Decisions by Theresa May, Nick Clegg and David Cameron are undermining
:48:12. > :48:19.our police and letting victims down. And Yvette Cooper joins us now from
:48:19. > :48:22.Brighton. You mentioned that the low turnout of police commissioners, the
:48:22. > :48:31.cost of the election, so we'll Labour scrapped the police
:48:31. > :48:38.commissioners? -- will Labour scrapped. Lord Stevens is setting
:48:38. > :48:42.out a long-term vision of policing, also looking at how you raise
:48:42. > :48:47.policing standards, how you have stronger checks and balances and how
:48:47. > :48:50.you make sure police can cope with the challenges of the 21st-century.
:48:50. > :48:57.He is due to report before Christmas so we will await that and consider
:48:57. > :49:02.his conclusions. He could advise that it is possible to scrap the PCC
:49:02. > :49:10.'s or keep them and you will follow that either way. We will have to
:49:10. > :49:14.have a debate about his conclusions. We opposed the principle of them to
:49:14. > :49:18.start with because we felt it was concentrating too much power in a
:49:18. > :49:21.single person's hands and that more checks and balances were needed. We
:49:21. > :49:25.single person's hands and that more are clear that reforms will be
:49:25. > :49:28.needed but we will await the advice of John Stevens and the expert
:49:28. > :49:32.commission he has gathered, which involves people from all over the
:49:32. > :49:34.globe. Because we believe in public services and think you have got to
:49:34. > :49:37.globe. Because we believe in public have a reform plan for the future,
:49:37. > :49:45.especially when there are less resources around. When the coalition
:49:45. > :49:49.started cutting the police service, you were planning to cut it as well
:49:49. > :49:53.but they have cut it by Moore, you said policing in Britain faced a
:49:53. > :49:58.perfect storm. We are halfway through the coalition government,
:49:58. > :50:03.crime is continuing to fall, at its lowest level for many years, so
:50:03. > :50:10.actually the cuts have and three had an effect, have they? That is what
:50:10. > :50:21.Vic -- the cuts have not really had an effect. That is not what victims
:50:21. > :50:24.think. The number of rape cases being referred to the prosecution
:50:24. > :50:28.have dropped by a third, even though in fact the number of rape cases
:50:28. > :50:31.reported to the police has been going up. I think you can see clear
:50:31. > :50:35.evidence of victims being let down, going up. I think you can see clear
:50:35. > :50:39.being failed. More criminals and abusers getting away with it. As a
:50:39. > :50:43.result of there being fewer police officers and police officers being
:50:43. > :50:48.stretched. The crime survey of England and Wales shows that despite
:50:48. > :50:59.the cuts, offending is at its lowest level since spending began in 1981.
:50:59. > :51:05.That includes any time during the 13 years when you were in power. There
:51:05. > :51:08.has been a 20 year drop in crime and we welcome that and wanted to go
:51:08. > :51:12.further. You see reductions in things like, side and burglary over
:51:12. > :51:20.many years that we should all welcome. -- things like homicide and
:51:20. > :51:24.burglary. The police are saying that crime is changing. What you are also
:51:24. > :51:30.seeing, alongside reductions in crime like car theft, is an increase
:51:30. > :51:35.in things like online crime on the credit card and identity fraud.
:51:35. > :51:36.Because that is where we live our lives now and organised crime knows
:51:36. > :51:41.Because that is where we live our that, too. That is where they are
:51:41. > :51:45.heading. If you have ever had your credit cards scammed or your number
:51:46. > :51:49.used by someone else, the bank sorts it out but they don't report it to
:51:49. > :51:53.the police and often the victims don't report it either. A lot of
:51:53. > :51:57.that is going unreported and the police are saying it is growing
:51:57. > :52:01.exponentially and that is why we think much stronger action is
:52:01. > :52:08.needed. Otherwise we will all pay a lot more as consumers. Do you
:52:08. > :52:11.support the Fire Brigade strike? We want negotiations to continue and we
:52:11. > :52:12.always think that is the right approach, that everybody should do
:52:12. > :52:19.everything they can. It is a very approach, that everybody should do
:52:19. > :52:24.difficult situation. Do you support them or not? We are urging all sides
:52:24. > :52:27.to continue to negotiate and do everything they can to avoid
:52:27. > :52:33.industrial action because it is always what happens when sides
:52:33. > :52:43.failed to negotiate and do the right thing. Is it unfair to ask by on to
:52:43. > :52:48.work until 60? -- to ask fireman? There are a lot of issues around
:52:48. > :52:51.pension reform. We have supported increasing the retirement age but at
:52:51. > :52:57.the same time, we also know there are some professions and occupations
:52:57. > :53:01.where it is more difficult. We said in policing, there are issues in
:53:02. > :53:07.policing that should be treated in a different way. However, there should
:53:07. > :53:14.also be support when policemen are injured in the line of duty and it
:53:14. > :53:24.has similar parallels with fire. I did not ask you about police. Is it
:53:24. > :53:31.unfair for fireman to be asked to work until 60? We think there are
:53:31. > :53:34.problems with the approach of the government and why the government
:53:34. > :53:40.and the SPU should be negotiating to find a reasonable way forward -- and
:53:40. > :53:49.the Fire Brigade union. They have had a long-standing
:53:49. > :53:57.arrangement and we are not proposing to change that. You don't think that
:53:57. > :54:03.would be right? We have had long-standing industrial relations
:54:03. > :54:06.with different kinds of professions. Police don't have the right to
:54:06. > :54:11.strike but they have arrangements where you can't make compulsory
:54:11. > :54:15.severance. Thank you, sorry to rush you, we have run out of time.
:54:15. > :54:18.No conference week would be complete without the views of sketch-writer
:54:18. > :54:26.Quentin Letts. He's been following events for us in Brighton. His
:54:26. > :54:33.verdict? Well, spine tingling! # He the monster mash.
:54:33. > :54:40.# It was a graveyard smash. # It caught on in a flash.
:54:40. > :54:48.# Heeded the monster mash. The sun may be shining in Brighton.
:54:48. > :54:52.It feels as though Halloween may have come early this year because in
:54:52. > :54:56.the fall behind me it has been echoing to the ghostly cries of
:54:56. > :55:03.spirits past. Enough to give poor old Ed Miliband the willies. The
:55:03. > :55:06.week has been dominated by the spectre of Damian McBride, even
:55:06. > :55:11.though he has been politically deceased since 2009, when he quit as
:55:11. > :55:16.Gordon Brown's spin doctor. He has returned with spine tingling, spin
:55:16. > :55:23.tingling tales of treachery in the heart of new Labour. It is something
:55:23. > :55:28.I deeply regret. Equally identical was alone in politics over the last
:55:28. > :55:31.decades in some of the ways I operated and I hope one of the
:55:31. > :55:34.effects of writing this book is that people can see the truth of some of
:55:34. > :55:38.these operations laid bare, learn from that and make it clear that
:55:38. > :55:43.those things should never happen again. Ed Miliband has been out and
:55:43. > :55:48.about but it has felt retro. Delegates have been assured that the
:55:48. > :55:52.wicked welfare reforms will be exercised. There has been a lot of
:55:52. > :55:59.bashing of Tory millionaires. Ed Miliband even breathe life into the
:55:59. > :56:06.old corpse called socialism. Why won't you bring back socialism? That
:56:06. > :56:09.is what we are doing. It says on our party card, democratic socialism.
:56:09. > :56:14.That is about a country that works fall and not just for some. The
:56:14. > :56:22.corridors are full of ancient bogey men such as Alistair Campbell and
:56:22. > :56:25.Charlie Whelan. Len McCluskey took on bridge because Ed Miliband walked
:56:25. > :56:31.out, just as he was about to start his speech. I am sorry Ed Miliband
:56:31. > :56:37.has left the platform. There are those in our party fearful of a
:56:38. > :56:44.prospect of a bad headline in the Daily Mail. I say to them, you will
:56:44. > :56:52.never, ever appease the right wing media and should try the means you
:56:52. > :56:58.and our party -- and to try to means -- Dean means you.
:56:58. > :57:05.Ed Balls made a speech that was more akin to one of those naughty seaside
:57:05. > :57:09.postcards. Involved a tale concerning the Prime Minister and
:57:09. > :57:15.his beach towel. Changing into his swimming trunks, behind that Mickey
:57:15. > :57:22.Mouse towel, captured on camera 's, unflattering pictures spread across
:57:22. > :57:29.the natural -- national press. I thought for a prime minister, it was
:57:30. > :57:33.a surprisingly small towel. Let us all agreed, after the last three
:57:33. > :57:38.years, the sooner David Cameron throws in the towel, the better.
:57:38. > :57:43.Labour's very own Kenneth Williams, having a go about David Cameron
:57:43. > :57:46.about the size of his majority for is a bit does make you wonder what
:57:46. > :57:49.will happen next week. See you in Manchester.
:57:49. > :57:55.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:57:55. > :57:59.Earlier we asked you what happened next while Damian McBride was
:57:59. > :58:05.waiting to do a live TV interview yesterday morning. Deborah, I think
:58:05. > :58:24.you know. There was a bit of a scrap.
:58:24. > :58:44.the lovely dog is actually attacking his own master. Maybe he had not
:58:44. > :58:47.been fed. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests - especially
:58:47. > :58:51.our Guest of the Day, Deborah Mattinson. The One O'clock News is
:58:51. > :58:55.starting over on BBC One now. Jo will be here at noon tomorrow with
:58:55. > :58:59.all the big political stories of the day and I will be back after
:59:00. > :59:02.Question Time tomorrow night with This Week. Do join me then. Bye-bye.