:00:42. > :00:46.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:46. > :00:48.Iran wants to be the West's best buddies - well, sort of. The
:00:48. > :00:52.country's new President, Hassan Rouhani, says he wants to reach a
:00:52. > :00:55.deal with world powers on his country's nuclear programme within
:00:55. > :00:58.as little as three months. In fact, the shorter the time frame the
:00:58. > :01:00.better. We'll be asking, can we trust him?
:01:00. > :01:03.In the middle of nowhere? Having trouble with your broadband? The
:01:03. > :01:09.Public Accounts Committee hears your pain.
:01:09. > :01:12.Just the ticket. Some local authorities are now raising more
:01:12. > :01:15.money through fees and charges than through the council tacks.
:01:15. > :01:27.And Adam goes all ideological with the mood box. Bar you are capitalist
:01:27. > :01:31.or a socialist? Socialist! And a loud one!
:01:31. > :01:35.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is
:01:35. > :01:38.the former United Nations Deputy Secretary General - he was also a
:01:38. > :01:40.former Labour minister - Lord Malloch Brown. Welcome to the Daily
:01:40. > :01:43.Politics. First this morning, let's start with
:01:43. > :01:46.Kenya where investigators are in the Westgate shopping complex following
:01:46. > :01:50.the end of the siege in which 67 people are known to have died. We
:01:50. > :02:00.can join our correspondent, Mike Wooldridge, live in Nairobi. First
:02:00. > :02:08.of all, how much do we have to fear from Al-Shabab? They are actually on
:02:08. > :02:12.the back foot in Somalia. This is a rear action to losing a lot of
:02:12. > :02:17.ground in their main theatre of action, their home country of
:02:17. > :02:21.Somalia. The problem is that it doesn't take that many terrorists to
:02:21. > :02:26.hit a soft target like a shopping more. One of the glories of Africa
:02:26. > :02:31.the new Africa of urban shopping and office blocks has not had the same
:02:31. > :02:36.kind of security arrangements that we are used to in the UK or the US.
:02:36. > :02:42.There are a lot more soft targets that they probably could hit if they
:02:42. > :02:47.put their mind to it. Do you think it will change Kenya's strategy,
:02:47. > :02:51.because Al-Shabab have said they want to target the countries who
:02:51. > :02:54.have troops in Somalia, including Kenya and Uganda. To you think they
:02:55. > :03:00.will think about pulling out or stopping any military involvement?
:03:00. > :03:04.In the case of Uganda when there was something similar, the reaction of
:03:04. > :03:08.the Ugandans was to redouble their efforts in Somalia and I suspect
:03:08. > :03:13.that will be the same actions of the Kenyans. They have always worried
:03:13. > :03:17.about their border. It is a porous border, it has been a source of
:03:17. > :03:24.insecurity for decades, well before Al-Shabab. In that sense I think
:03:24. > :03:28.they will double down and try to eliminate Al-Shabab in Somalia.
:03:28. > :03:35.Initial term at least, I suspect it will intensify Kenyan efforts -- in
:03:35. > :03:39.the short term at least. The president has said that Al-Shabab is
:03:39. > :03:46.ashamed and humiliated or defeated, it sounds fairly gung ho, do you
:03:46. > :03:50.think it is true? No, I think they have pulled off an extraordinary
:03:50. > :03:56.stunt and pulled off a huge pall over Kenyan tourism, commerce and
:03:56. > :04:01.retail. This country has had gung ho growth rates of four or 5% a year
:04:01. > :04:08.but it depends very much on those sectors for it. I think this will
:04:08. > :04:11.cost Kenya severely. What about Kenyans themselves quicker mark I
:04:11. > :04:15.have heard a lot of interviews with Kenyans who are quite shocked, taken
:04:15. > :04:18.aback. Was there a sense that although you say these are soft
:04:18. > :04:23.targets, they really were not expecting this level of attack? That
:04:23. > :04:27.is why they are soft targets, they were not expecting this level of
:04:27. > :04:31.attack. There was a sense that Al-Shabab was defeated, a sense that
:04:31. > :04:38.this byte Kenya's own internal conflicts, which have occasionally
:04:38. > :04:42.flared up -- despite Kenya's own internal conflicts, this country was
:04:42. > :04:46.putting its past behind it and had new middle-class prosperity ahead.
:04:46. > :04:51.This is a real blow to Kenya's sense of where it was going. How much of a
:04:51. > :04:56.threat is Al-Shabab in global terms or is this berry much and these
:04:56. > :05:01.African problem? -- very much an East African problem? It is a
:05:01. > :05:11.manifestation of a much broader jihadis which is a global problem.
:05:11. > :05:12.We can turn to our correspondent in Nairobi. I am not sure he can hear
:05:12. > :05:30.me. He cannot. What about recruits to
:05:30. > :05:34.Al-Shabab? There was talk and there has been speculation about a Britain
:05:34. > :05:44.and Americans being involved. Are they incorrect -- recruiting
:05:44. > :05:46.actively? I think it is a kind of international dimensional of not
:05:46. > :05:53.just Al-Shabab at Al-Qaeda rail rated groups. You have foreign --
:05:53. > :06:01.but Al-Qaeda related groups. You have foreign forces. I think it is
:06:01. > :06:04.that. The Somali community in the UK is a long established community that
:06:04. > :06:10.would be the first to condemn Al-Shabab. What about the Somali
:06:10. > :06:13.community in Kenya and Nairobi? There has been talk that they are
:06:14. > :06:20.trying to appeal to a significant minority of Somalis in Nairobi. A
:06:20. > :06:24.lot of people have been pushed out of Somalia into exile in Kenya, and
:06:24. > :06:28.I doubt they represent quite a wide range of political viewpoints. I
:06:28. > :06:32.think most Somalis would think that this kind of thing endangers them,
:06:32. > :06:37.in that it risks raising community tensions. I would expect them to be
:06:37. > :06:43.very opposed to what has happened, and as angry as Kenyans about it. In
:06:43. > :06:46.terms of reaction from the rest of the welcome obviously it is
:06:46. > :06:51.condemned, what will be message be to Kenya? I think it will be to
:06:51. > :06:57.increase what the president is doing in Somalia in military terms. More
:06:57. > :07:02.importantly for him, can he use it to unify the country. He came to
:07:02. > :07:07.power through a divided election and he also faces from the previous
:07:07. > :07:11.election, charges at the International criminal Court. I
:07:11. > :07:16.think he will try to use this to put that behind him and relaunch himself
:07:16. > :07:21.as the statesman president of a united country. Can he pull it off?
:07:21. > :07:24.It remains to be seen. We have seen images of a lot of Kenyans giving
:07:24. > :07:35.blood and trying to pull together in the way that you describe. Let's try
:07:35. > :07:37.Michael Waldridge again, can you hear ask us to
:07:37. > :07:53.You can see the shopping complexes on the left. Just confirming I can
:07:53. > :07:58.hear you. The shopping complex is just down the road behind us there.
:07:58. > :08:02.Can you tell us what is happening now as investigators tried to piece
:08:02. > :08:12.together, now they are able to access the shopping contexts? They
:08:12. > :08:16.are not yet able to access all of it, even the forensic audit is
:08:16. > :08:20.are not yet able to access all of expected to take about a week. It is
:08:20. > :08:25.very challenging in itself. As we understand it, roughly a third of
:08:25. > :08:30.the complex of buildings was destroyed. In the course of the
:08:30. > :08:34.siege and the battles between the militants and the security forces.
:08:34. > :08:40.About a third of it has been checked and work can get underway. The
:08:40. > :08:46.security forces are still checking the other third, checking for booby
:08:46. > :08:50.traps and so on. The work that is getting underway involves sifting
:08:50. > :08:55.through, trying to find out where there are bodies and to retrieve
:08:55. > :09:05.them. Before they can do that, they also need to do DNA testing,
:09:05. > :09:09.fingerprints, checking and so on. One of the very delicate things they
:09:09. > :09:13.are trying to do is to distinguish between the bodies of any militants
:09:13. > :09:18.that are in their... The president said there worth five, there could
:09:18. > :09:22.be more. Distinguish between those said there worth five, there could
:09:22. > :09:26.and the body of civilians. One of the things where they believe they
:09:26. > :09:32.have a body of a militant and Interpol are doing that, is to take
:09:32. > :09:38.the data from those bodies and compare it with those that are on
:09:38. > :09:42.Interpol's Terror database, to see if they can find out more about who
:09:42. > :09:50.carried out this attack and there nationality. Apologies for the long
:09:50. > :09:54.delay. It is obviously very distressing as they try to find
:09:54. > :09:59.other bodies in the wreckage. The Public Accounts Committee has
:09:59. > :10:02.been busy again. Today it has issued a damning report on the way the
:10:02. > :10:05.Government awarded contracts for extending high-speed broadband to
:10:05. > :10:07.rural areas. The Committee accuses the Department of Culture of
:10:07. > :10:10."mismanaging" the £2.5 billion project and says BT has exploited
:10:10. > :10:15.its near monopoly position as the main provider of the technology. The
:10:15. > :10:18.report also warns that consumers are getting a "raw deal" because of a
:10:18. > :10:22.two-year delay in completing the programme which won't now be
:10:22. > :10:31.finished until 2017. So how important is rural broadband? I'm
:10:31. > :10:35.joined now through the internet by Dave Reynoldswho's in Teignmouth in
:10:35. > :10:38.Devon, who runs a film company. Welcome to the programme, how
:10:38. > :10:46.important is raw broadband to your business? It is completely
:10:46. > :10:53.fundamental. -- rural broadband. We deal with enormous file sizes every
:10:53. > :10:56.time and with a slow internet, it pretty much comes to a standstill.
:10:56. > :11:01.We have fibre-optic now which is amazing, we are getting downloads of
:11:01. > :11:05.about 30 megabytes and it has completely changed the way we are
:11:05. > :11:07.doing a thing. We are getting a much better link here than we just had
:11:07. > :11:10.doing a thing. We are getting a much with Nairobi but maybe that is to be
:11:10. > :11:14.expected. It has transformed your business, you would not be able to
:11:14. > :11:17.function as a business without it? We have been functioning without it
:11:17. > :11:21.function as a business without it? but it means posting DVDs and
:11:21. > :11:25.frequently we will get DVD from clients, the footage is not there
:11:25. > :11:28.and it slows everything down. It is a less pleasant experience for
:11:28. > :11:31.everybody. We have a lot of horror stories of things we had to do in
:11:31. > :11:35.the meantime until getting connected. Now it has opened the
:11:35. > :11:40.floodgates and everything is much cleaner and more creative and
:11:40. > :11:42.quicker. What do you say to the argument that local authorities
:11:42. > :11:52.should not be subsidising broadband for oral areas? -- from rural areas.
:11:52. > :11:57.I think it is madness. It depends on your definition of a raw area. In
:11:57. > :12:01.the media industry there is argument to say we should be in London but
:12:01. > :12:05.creatively it is important to be outside of the city, to be around
:12:05. > :12:09.great locations where we can afford bigger spaces to do our thing. If we
:12:09. > :12:13.don't have an internet connection, it cuts us off enormously. We are in
:12:13. > :12:20.tamers, we are in a small seaside town, it
:12:20. > :12:25.is not like we are surrounded by nothing but farmland. But in this
:12:25. > :12:29.industry it can feel like we are cut off and if you are not in London or
:12:29. > :12:33.perhaps Bristol, you don't exist. But with faster internet, video
:12:33. > :12:38.conferencing is possible, we can transfer these files quickly, we can
:12:38. > :12:42.upload high-quality video to places like YouTube and we have put a lot
:12:43. > :12:48.of films on YouTube which would have been navigable previously. And you
:12:48. > :12:54.have had your debut appearance on the Daily Politics, in great
:12:54. > :13:01.quality. The magic of the internet. Enjoy the superfast broadband. And
:13:01. > :13:03.we're joined now by the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, Maragaret
:13:03. > :13:06.Hodge, by the Culture Minister, Ed Vaizey and from the taxpayers
:13:06. > :13:10.alliance, Domonique Lazanski. Thank you. Margaret Hodge, how have they
:13:10. > :13:15.mismanaged it? In several ways. They devised the contest in such a way
:13:15. > :13:22.that BT inevitably one and therefore BT has become the in -- inevitably
:13:22. > :13:27.won and BT has become the monopoly provider in rolling out superfast
:13:27. > :13:37.for battles you look at the cost and the subsidy, the costs in England
:13:37. > :13:42.have gone up over 300% to what BT spent in Northern Ireland. The third
:13:42. > :13:53.thing is what the government says, Ed Vaizey quarrels with this... No!
:13:53. > :13:58.His boss said when they started this programme it would go to virtually
:13:58. > :14:05.all people in rural areas. That is 100%, as close as possible. The
:14:05. > :14:11.reality is that BT are now saying they will only cover 90%, they are
:14:11. > :14:16.refusing to give other providers the postcodes so they can do alternative
:14:16. > :14:20.provision. Even in the 90%, if you are more than one kilometre from
:14:20. > :14:27.where the boxes, you don't get access. If you are a farmer -- from
:14:27. > :14:32.where the box is. If you are a farmer who needs access to superfast
:14:32. > :14:35.Orban, to claim your European farming subsidies for example, you
:14:36. > :14:41.can't get it -- access to superfast broadband. Margaret Hodge has
:14:41. > :14:45.painted it as something of a disaster. You are not covering the
:14:45. > :14:50.number of people you said you would and it is very important, and it has
:14:50. > :14:55.cost the taxpayer a lot of money. Everything Margarets has said is
:14:55. > :14:59.wrong and I will explain that. We made it absolutely clear that we
:14:59. > :15:02.didn't just put the money out there and saying it is going to virtually
:15:02. > :15:06.everyone, we said exactly where it was going, it was going to go to
:15:06. > :15:11.superfast broadband for 90% of the UK, and 100% were going to get two
:15:11. > :15:19.megabits. That has aways been our programme. That is a fact. We set up
:15:20. > :15:25.a very competitive process, we have Fujitsu promising to invest £2.5
:15:25. > :15:27.billion. It competed for many contracts, local authorities chose
:15:27. > :15:33.BT because they were going to get a better deal. Why so much more
:15:33. > :15:41.expensive than Northern Ireland? It is not more expensive. It is true. .
:15:41. > :15:46.You can't both be right. 123450 it costs a different amount to put
:15:46. > :15:49.broadband in different places. Some of the allegations the costs in
:15:49. > :15:54.Northern Ireland are wildly different from England are not true.
:15:54. > :15:57.But the important point to say, first the National Audit Office said
:15:57. > :16:04.procedures are value for money, they were robust. BT only gets paid when
:16:04. > :16:09.they do the work. We don't write a cheque and say tell us how you are
:16:09. > :16:14.getting on. They take all the risk, You would expect them to? Yes, one
:16:14. > :16:19.of the last deals that the last Labour Government did had no risk on
:16:19. > :16:25.the provider and went wrong. How are you so far apart on this? You both
:16:25. > :16:30.can't be so right or wrong? She was determined to show BT was the
:16:30. > :16:32.villain and the Government wasn't. I have more Conservatives on the
:16:32. > :16:37.committee pause we reflect Parliament than we have Labour
:16:37. > :16:42.members and there was cross-party anonymity that the taxpayer, the
:16:42. > :16:45.council taxpayer is getting fleece, what has been provided is too little
:16:45. > :16:50.and it is coming too late. I don't know where to start on the tinges
:16:50. > :16:56.that go wrong. Let me take one, let me take one fact. Ed talked about
:16:56. > :17:00.500 million. It is 1.2 billion. That is going into the pockets of the
:17:00. > :17:05.shareholders of BT. The actual subsidy for every pound spent on
:17:05. > :17:10.rolling out soup fast prisoner of warred band, 75 pence comes from the
:17:10. > :17:15.taxpayer. You look at Sweden, you look at Northern Ireland and the
:17:15. > :17:20.percentage is very much less. They have got to that position because
:17:20. > :17:24.they are a monopoly provision. Dominique Lazanski you are noting
:17:24. > :17:32.your head. Is this not value for money? -- nodding. There are a lot
:17:32. > :17:39.of issue, it was 't -- wasn't demand led. It wasn't mobile wireless so
:17:39. > :17:43.there are a lot of constraints that caused the costs to go up. What do
:17:43. > :17:48.you say to that? If we weren't doing this programme, we would be having a
:17:48. > :17:51.discussion, saying why isn't the Government subsidising the roll out
:17:51. > :17:59.to rural areas? We are all keen. Government subsidising the roll out
:18:00. > :18:05.Demand is out there. It is, we have had numerous people on here. We have
:18:05. > :18:09.brought out 4 G ahead of schedule so mobile broadband will cover
:18:09. > :18:16.virtually all the country, by 98% of the country, by the end of 2015. If
:18:16. > :18:20.I can point to the report, there is this allegation that BT is somehow
:18:20. > :18:24.preventing councils from showing the broadband map. That is not true. All
:18:24. > :18:30.councils can publish the maps of where BT is going if they want to.
:18:30. > :18:35.Why are they saying otherwise? Chris Heaton Harris said Northamptonshire
:18:35. > :18:39.Cowen sishls his council has done it. Are you comfortable, you may say
:18:39. > :18:42.you have rolled out the programme, well you have, there is no doubt
:18:42. > :18:46.about it, it has been rolled out. If it is not value for money and if you
:18:46. > :18:51.are going to be criticised for not doing due diligence in terms of who
:18:51. > :18:55.is in charge, if there are some people without broadband, it is not
:18:55. > :19:00.going to be the successful programme you set out to be. You have put the
:19:00. > :19:03.finger on it A the end of the day marring and I can have arguments but
:19:03. > :19:08.the people watching this programme are saying where is my broadband?
:19:08. > :19:12.Where is it? For those lucky enough to survive, in two years time we
:19:12. > :19:17.will sit on the sofa and I hope to tell you millions have broadband and
:19:17. > :19:23.I hope to show you we have been robust in holding BT to account.
:19:23. > :19:29.Clearly Margaret says you haven't been. Ed, millions of people, let
:19:29. > :19:31.me, millions of people will get broadband, we welcome that, there
:19:31. > :19:34.me, millions of people will get will be many, many, probably
:19:34. > :19:37.millions of people who won't get access to broadband. Let me say
:19:37. > :19:40.don't quote the National Audit Office at us, because the National
:19:40. > :19:46.Audit Office is in agreement with us, what you are doing is checking
:19:46. > :19:49.invoice, and I just, I mean I do the analogy of a building contract. When
:19:49. > :19:53.you get a contract if your home. You get an estimate. You check the
:19:53. > :19:57.invoices the other side, but we want to know thes dos up front, you can't
:19:57. > :20:01.tell us the money that has been spent on labour, on project
:20:01. > :20:06.management, rather than capital investment, and if you go back to
:20:06. > :20:10.the report, the NAO report says the checks are better, they are not good
:20:11. > :20:16.enough. BT, I mean it doesn't operation as a monopoly, it is open
:20:16. > :20:22.to other rivals this contract. BT is essential for delivering broadband
:20:22. > :20:26.in this country, however, how BT wholesale provides access for other
:20:26. > :20:30.companies like Virgin, people like that, it is constrained and that is
:20:30. > :20:35.part of the problem with delivering broadband in the UK. If it is that
:20:35. > :20:39.convained it is not open in the way you have described We have one of
:20:39. > :20:44.the most competitive broadband markets in the world. You can't do
:20:44. > :20:48.that without broadband, we have 60 or 707 retailers providing
:20:48. > :20:51.broadband, on BT network, we have some of the lowest prices for
:20:51. > :20:57.broadband anywhere in the ed who. Access to BT's infrastructure is
:20:57. > :21:01.regulated by Ofcom. We saw a lot of the providers on the wholesale side
:21:01. > :21:05.who said the way the contract had been devised by Ed's department kept
:21:05. > :21:07.them out of the business ch the contracts were too small. They
:21:08. > :21:14.depended on one technology, they had those sort of features and on the
:21:14. > :21:19.retail side we had Talk Talk giving evidence, they said BT was knocking
:21:19. > :21:26.up the wholesale price, making the mark up they couldn't compete in the
:21:26. > :21:31.mark. Do you think it sound like a cosy deal? They are the utility we
:21:31. > :21:34.love to hate and they are not a universal utility any more. They
:21:34. > :21:38.have a quasi monopolistic position which they use to take advantage of
:21:38. > :21:42.this, ball these infrastructure rows in the UK leave one the taxpayer
:21:42. > :21:50.with the worrying thought by the time it is done, do we still need
:21:50. > :21:56.it? I mean Zimbabwe has just rolled out 4G to rural users, so there is
:21:56. > :21:59.this sense, you know, Governments and investments of this kind have
:21:59. > :22:07.a-ha bit of being yesterday's technology and the day before that's
:22:07. > :22:11.by the time they are completed. You simply can't win. Margaret was
:22:11. > :22:17.saying BT is pleasing the taxpayer and will make a huge profit and Mark
:22:17. > :22:19.is saying BT is going to be out-of-date in five years' time.
:22:19. > :22:22.Think we are doing the right thing. We are delivering, we are about to
:22:22. > :22:29.Think we are doing the right thing. deliver to 10,000 homes a week. You
:22:29. > :22:33.can agree to disagree you two. We agree the technology is important.
:22:33. > :22:38.Iran wants to reach a deal with the west on its nuclear programme within
:22:38. > :22:41.the next six month, that was the fairly surprising declaration from
:22:41. > :22:43.the country's new President Hassan Rouhani at the United Nations
:22:43. > :22:46.the country's new President Hassan meeting in New York this week. It
:22:46. > :22:50.comes after a seeming shift in position from the new leadership in
:22:50. > :22:55.Iran, which has been under some form of sanctions for a number of years.
:22:55. > :23:00.They have driven up the cost of living since 2007, and now, appears
:23:00. > :23:10.Iran is ready to come back to the negotiating table.
:23:10. > :23:14.Hassan Rouhani gave an interview in the States yesterday and he was
:23:15. > :23:20.asked why, despite all the positive rhetoric a handshake where the US
:23:20. > :23:24.President never materialised. You have made a speech, the President
:23:24. > :23:28.has made a speech. There was no handshake. No meeting between you
:23:28. > :23:33.and the President, you suggested you didn't have enough time to plan for
:23:33. > :23:39.it. What is necessary for you to have a bilateral meeting with the
:23:39. > :23:44.President? TRANSLATION: Well, after all, we are
:23:44. > :23:52.speaking of two countries, who have had no relations for 35 years, so it
:23:52. > :24:00.is clear that to begin talks, requires some preparation work. And
:24:00. > :24:02.when tefr prep work is completed, believe it is possible to be have a
:24:02. > :24:06.when tefr prep work is completed, meeting, perhaps if we had more time
:24:06. > :24:11.here in New York we may have been able to co-ordinate what was
:24:11. > :24:14.necessary for many meeting to take place.
:24:14. > :24:19.With us now Villa the wonders of broadband which we have been talking
:24:19. > :24:22.about is former ambassador to Iran Richard Dalton, welcome to the
:24:22. > :24:31.programme. Here from the Henry Jackson Society is Douglas Murray.
:24:31. > :24:35.Douglas Murray do you trust President Rouhani. No it is
:24:35. > :24:41.important to leave any door very slightly open, in case this, against
:24:42. > :24:47.all odds is a sincere approach. Do you not think they are making, in
:24:48. > :24:52.their terms, quite a bit of the running and there has to be more,
:24:52. > :24:59.there has to be more trust in what they have to offer. They want to do
:24:59. > :25:03.something about sanctions The sanctions are biting in Iran. The
:25:03. > :25:06.regime feels they are getting blamed for that by the people, quite
:25:07. > :25:12.rightly. Think it's a great mistake to think that an alleged tweet here,
:25:12. > :25:18.and the odd statement here constitutes a change in policy. This
:25:18. > :25:21.is still a country run by addict forrial governance of Ayatollahs. Do
:25:21. > :25:27.is still a country run by addict you agree with that Richard Dalton?
:25:27. > :25:30.It is not a perfect democracy but President Rouhani was elected. The
:25:30. > :25:34.reason he is there rather than one of the hard liners is because that
:25:34. > :25:39.is what the people wanted, and the Supreme Leader of Iran did not seek
:25:39. > :25:43.to influence that election at all. I think the important thing is that
:25:43. > :25:49.this is a genuine new opening, and to suggest that you should merely
:25:49. > :25:55.leave the door slightly open is just too grudging, the fact is that the
:25:55. > :25:56.policies adopted by the US and its partners have failed to realise
:25:56. > :26:02.their objective of providing cast partners have failed to realise
:26:02. > :26:06.iron assurances that Iran will not ever build a nuclear weapon, and in
:26:06. > :26:13.the case of Iran, their defiance and their, the difficulties face, have
:26:13. > :26:17.not secured their objective of security, respect and prosperity, so
:26:17. > :26:22.I believe there is a dawning awareness in Washington and Tehran
:26:22. > :26:28.they need to try something new, that should be welcomed. What we have
:26:28. > :26:32.heard from the Iranian, reenforce -- reinforces that sense of an opening,
:26:33. > :26:36.they are talking in terms of a framework for managing their o
:26:36. > :26:39.managing their difference with the US, they are talking about removing
:26:39. > :26:44.concerns is about their nuclear programme on the basis of
:26:44. > :26:48.transparency, and this is now right for exploitation with a more
:26:48. > :26:52.flexible and creative diplomatic position, by the six countries that
:26:52. > :26:57.Iran is negotiating with. OK. What do you think in terms of being
:26:57. > :27:00.creative and imaginative from the Americans and the western response
:27:00. > :27:07.in terms of getting what they want, in the way Richard Dalton says the
:27:07. > :27:12.west hasn't been able to through sanctions. Disagree, sanctions have
:27:12. > :27:18.worked to some extent. I would argue the fact sanctions have been going
:27:18. > :27:21.on is why the Iranians are coming to the table like this. If sanctions
:27:21. > :27:27.were to keep going on, the Iranian regime could well see itself under
:27:27. > :27:31.the kind of pressure with the popular protests we saw in 2009
:27:31. > :27:35.which were brutally crushed in 2009. Think it's a mistake to give, to
:27:35. > :27:40.allow them this moment to escape from that moment, that said, of
:27:40. > :27:45.course, if there is some, if there is some way of exploring a way round
:27:45. > :27:49.this, then, of course it should, it should be looked for. How much do
:27:49. > :27:55.you believe in this new opening, if you like, in dialogue? Well, it is a
:27:55. > :27:59.new team and there is no doubt they got elected with a mandate to try
:27:59. > :28:05.and get back into the community of nations. But, think it is the case
:28:05. > :28:08.that said, the fundamentals remain the same, which is that the
:28:08. > :28:12.Government will want to retain, the Iranian Government will want to
:28:12. > :28:21.retain a Ana Ivanovic programme reportedly for peaceful purposes,
:28:21. > :28:27.and -- uranium enrichment programme. That is a big ask. But, you know,
:28:27. > :28:32.but the way to get there, as Richard said, is to put this in a broader
:28:32. > :28:36.framework of normalising relation, because for Iran, it has always been
:28:36. > :28:43.this vulnerabilitiable in the region itself, to Israel, a nuclear power
:28:43. > :28:47.already, and to the US, which has motivated this behaviour. So if
:28:47. > :28:54.there is some kind of security guarantee as part of a broad era
:28:54. > :29:00.rapprochement this can move forward, for the US to the do a deal with the
:29:00. > :29:06.devil it is going to need to be conadviced an Israel is I heard Mark
:29:06. > :29:12.regular geld, he said don't be fooled by the smiling Rouhani in
:29:12. > :29:16.that sense, he feels the policy hasn't changed at all. What do you
:29:16. > :29:20.feel would have to be done by the Iranians to convince them more? By
:29:20. > :29:24.rubbishing everything in advance and not staying in the General Assembly
:29:24. > :29:29.to listen to President Rouhani, the Israelis are talking themselves out
:29:29. > :29:34.of the game. The fact is they already have a firm ally in the US
:29:34. > :29:39.and they should be discussing these matters with the US UK, and the US
:29:39. > :29:45.is negotiating partner, and they should be preparing themselves to
:29:45. > :29:51.face the fact that is their objective-hit erto of stopping all
:29:51. > :29:56.enrich. In Iran is not negotiable and it is not the policy of the US
:29:56. > :30:00.or of the European countries. But, the point about the next round of
:30:00. > :30:05.negotiations is we don't know what is in the hand of either side. We
:30:05. > :30:10.may know a bit more after today's New York meeting. It could on the
:30:10. > :30:16.other hand be about agreeing processes is and about platitudes,
:30:16. > :30:21.or it could be a substantive negotiating session. Iran has never
:30:22. > :30:27.left the negotiating table, it has been there is a vicious
:30:27. > :30:44.disagreement, because each side has made tiny offers. I am going to stop
:30:44. > :30:48.you there. It is a jolly good thing that people are talking about doing
:30:48. > :30:53.it quickly because after all, Iran has been blamed hitherto for
:30:53. > :30:58.stringing things out. We shouldn't be looking big if tours in the mouth
:30:58. > :31:04.when Iran says, let's try to get at least April and re-agreement,
:31:04. > :31:08.something that defuses the tension -- preliminary agreement. I am going
:31:08. > :31:13.something that defuses the tension to stop you. I don't you could hear
:31:13. > :31:18.me. Respond to the Israelis, walking out, it is not going to produce
:31:18. > :31:23.anything in terms of negotiation or conciliation in the way that Richard
:31:23. > :31:30.Dalton has expressed? Come on, the idea that Israel walking out is some
:31:30. > :31:34.kind of diplomatic snub... This is walking out of a speech of somebody
:31:34. > :31:38.who is president of a country which continues to sponsor terrorist
:31:38. > :31:44.groups, who have as their stated aim the annihilation of the state of
:31:44. > :31:51.Israel. If the Iranian enrichment programme is part of the deal...
:31:51. > :31:54.Iran is in contravention of six resolutions, five of them unanimous.
:31:54. > :31:58.It is against the international community on this. Israel, it is not
:31:58. > :32:03.too surprising that a country which community on this. Israel, it is not
:32:03. > :32:08.is still suffering terrorism, sponsored by Iraq, in particular its
:32:09. > :32:12.proxy group of Hezbollah, which has just seen in the last 24 hours the
:32:13. > :32:18.international press and everyone else give a standing ovation to
:32:18. > :32:26.Hassan Rouhani for saying it is possible the Holocaust existed... It
:32:26. > :32:27.is a step. It is debatable if he acknowledge the Holocaust did occur.
:32:27. > :32:36.The you can understand why the Israelis
:32:36. > :32:39.would be suspicious, at least. People are always walking out of the
:32:39. > :32:44.General Assembly so not to make a big deal about that, but the broader
:32:44. > :32:49.point is that the US must make sure its policy is driven by broader
:32:49. > :32:53.interests than just Israel. It has to remember that for Israel, a
:32:53. > :32:58.stable region of peace with itself has got to be the ultimate goal. It
:32:58. > :33:04.should welcome this modest steps forward and try to accelerate them.
:33:04. > :33:08.We all agree that you want to keep the door open a little bit, I would
:33:08. > :33:14.say a bit wider. But whichever way it happens we have got to seize this
:33:14. > :33:18.opportunity. This crisis with Iran was one day always going to have a
:33:18. > :33:22.diplomatic, not a security solution. It is not feasible to take
:33:22. > :33:27.out this nuclear programme by strikes. Getting down to the table
:33:27. > :33:33.and negotiating a solution was one they going to happen, it is as good
:33:33. > :33:35.a moment as any. Thank you for joining us, Richard Dalton. You're
:33:35. > :33:38.watching the Daily Politics - and we've been joined by viewers in
:33:38. > :33:40.Scotland who have been watching First Minister's Questions from
:33:40. > :33:43.Holyrood. The United Nations was meant to help
:33:43. > :33:47.bring peace and harmony to the world; more often than not though,
:33:47. > :33:50.it finds itself in the firing line, both literally and politically. But
:33:50. > :33:54.is that an occupational hazard for a body which tries to mediate in
:33:54. > :34:00.disputes, or is the UN in dire need of reform? Here's David.
:34:00. > :34:07.Think United Nations, think New York. Actually, it first met much
:34:07. > :34:11.closer to home. This is where it all began for the United Nations. Its
:34:12. > :34:16.inaugural meeting was held in London's Methodist Central Hall in
:34:16. > :34:23.1946. It has been going for 67 years, it has a members and has been
:34:23. > :34:28.at the centre of world events for eight decades -- 193 members.
:34:28. > :34:33.Critics say the UN has not covered itself in glory in recent years,
:34:33. > :34:37.frequently ignored by the powerful, important to stop genocide in the
:34:37. > :34:41.Balkans and hamstrung by a Security Council whose five permanent members
:34:41. > :34:47.routinely fail to achieve a collective view. In short, not fit
:34:47. > :34:52.for purpose. Any organisation that doesn't have critical scrutiny,
:34:52. > :34:56.doesn't have an opposition, tends overtime to become flabby,
:34:56. > :35:01.self-serving and corrupt. Even with the best will in the world, and
:35:01. > :35:03.because people tend to treat the UN as being an embodiment of high
:35:04. > :35:07.principle that we don't like to criticise it, we have had the
:35:07. > :35:12.perverse effect of making it less good at what it is supposed to do.
:35:12. > :35:17.But then, the United Nations can only ever be the sum of its parts.
:35:17. > :35:21.It is easy to take potshots at the UN because its failures are there
:35:21. > :35:26.for everyone to see. But we have to ask, is that really the fall of the
:35:26. > :35:31.UN as a body or is it the fault of the governments that make it up, the
:35:31. > :35:34.member states of the UN? Although the focus is on the rows and the
:35:34. > :35:40.global power plays, there is more to the UN than vetoes. The UN has many
:35:40. > :35:44.branches and a lot of them do valuable work around the world which
:35:44. > :35:48.is less high profile than high politics stuff. In the areas of
:35:48. > :35:53.refugees, the UN carries out a lot of voluble work looking after
:35:53. > :35:56.refugees around the world. -- valuable work. The human rights
:35:56. > :36:01.Council has sponsored important investigations into atrocities. As a
:36:01. > :36:05.-- others think some of those many branches should be ruined. I would
:36:05. > :36:10.like to see a number of its agencies wound up and its powers returned to
:36:10. > :36:13.the member states. I would like to see the bureaucracy growing out of
:36:13. > :36:17.sight reduced in scope and power. I would like to see the UN returned to
:36:17. > :36:24.the basic role of being an international forum for the
:36:24. > :36:28.arbitration of disputes. I am confident that the authority of the
:36:28. > :36:31.United Nations will prevail. The night it nations was meant to stop
:36:31. > :36:35.wars and promote dialogue between countries. Almost from its earliest
:36:35. > :36:41.days, the battle ground has often been the organisation itself.
:36:41. > :36:51.Do you think it has been a complete failure? I don't think it has been a
:36:51. > :36:54.complete failure but to misapply the Churchill picked on, it is the worst
:36:54. > :36:58.possible international forum apart from all of the others one might
:36:58. > :37:02.think of. If one considers the problem the UN faces, you can see
:37:02. > :37:07.what a difference a letter makes. The UNHCR, the high commission for
:37:08. > :37:11.the refugees and the human rights Council. The high commission for
:37:11. > :37:15.refugees does extraordinary work, it is hard to think of another body
:37:15. > :37:20.that could do that much good. Then you take the human rights Council
:37:20. > :37:25.and it is a farce of a body. Where North Korea and Sudan and human
:37:25. > :37:29.rights abusers attacked Iran and the Western democracy. There you see the
:37:29. > :37:35.problem. It could do with quite a lot of pruning. Do you agree it
:37:35. > :37:39.should be pruned in a dramatic way? When I was the deputy secretary
:37:39. > :37:42.general, we were hell bent on trying to reform everything from membership
:37:42. > :37:46.of the Security Council to the performance of the agencies, change
:37:47. > :37:52.the condition under which staff work. Under Kofi Anand we will
:37:52. > :37:58.taking it all in. Our big resistors were member states. That is not a
:37:58. > :38:01.surprise, turkeys are not going to vote for Christmas over this. That's
:38:01. > :38:06.surprise, turkeys are not going to right, although a reinvigorated UN
:38:06. > :38:12.would help most member states. Because it does have a lot of common
:38:12. > :38:18.good. Frankly, for all its flaws, I love the reversal of the Churchill
:38:18. > :38:22.dictum. If we didn't have it, we would probably have to invent it and
:38:22. > :38:29.we would have a lot of difficulty in venting it even up to this standard
:38:29. > :38:33.in today's world. 1945 was a rare moment of unanimity in world affairs
:38:33. > :38:35.after a terrible walk it reflects that aspiration. It is some kind of
:38:35. > :38:45.on which we can build. -- after a that aspiration. It is some kind of
:38:45. > :38:48.terrible war. Is the problem that it doesn't work as a structure, that it
:38:48. > :38:56.is wasteful and compass and needs pruning? Or is it that it -- and
:38:56. > :39:00.cumbersome and needs pruning. Or is it that it doesn't work because you
:39:00. > :39:07.have very divided camps which will never meet. The Security Council is
:39:07. > :39:10.the obvious example, it is unworkable, it cannot agree on a
:39:11. > :39:15.situation like Syria. It cannot agree for meaningful action. When
:39:15. > :39:18.you look at the occasions the United Nations has managed to intervene
:39:18. > :39:27.Button I think of the Korean War of which could only -- managed to
:39:27. > :39:33.intervene... China and Russia were not engage with the Security
:39:33. > :39:39.Council. There are 20 peacekeeping missions, all with Security Council
:39:39. > :39:41.mandates. Hezbollah's clash with Israel in southern Lebanon,
:39:41. > :39:48.mandates. Hezbollah's clash with something which was going to go very
:39:48. > :39:57.nasty for Israel as well as Lebanon, the UN. Austrian troops recently
:39:57. > :40:01.fled. There are all sorts of problems with countries that have no
:40:01. > :40:07.vested interest, not wanting to put the lives of troops on the line. It
:40:07. > :40:11.is legitimate, you might say, but no good for the peacekeeping role. I
:40:11. > :40:16.think you are right that on the big ones, it tends to divide, like Syria
:40:16. > :40:22.or the Palestinian issue. But, and it is a huge but, our unit camera
:40:22. > :40:31.British political system couldn't agree what to do about Syria so no
:40:31. > :40:35.surprise the world cannot either. There are occasions when peace does
:40:35. > :40:39.not need to be kept, war needs to be waged against a country, against a
:40:39. > :40:43.dictator. On that sort of question, the failings of the Security Council
:40:43. > :40:47.are not just for the time being but will be perpetual. Thank you.
:40:47. > :40:50.People have always suspected councils of getting that little bit
:40:50. > :40:54.extra from service charges and there seems to be growing evidence.
:40:54. > :40:56.Figures published today show one in three councils raises more money
:40:56. > :41:02.from domestic charges than council tacks. According to Audit Commission
:41:02. > :41:05.figures, councils raised a colossal £10.2 billion in 2011-12 by charging
:41:05. > :41:10.for rubbish collection, funerals and parking. The money is supposed to be
:41:10. > :41:13.ploughed back into the service it has been raised from, but further
:41:13. > :41:18.analysis shows that councils have raised 150% more from parking than
:41:18. > :41:22.they've spent on it. Communities Secretary Eric Pickles is said to be
:41:22. > :41:26.on the war path over charges supplementing other services. But
:41:26. > :41:29.with council tax freezes and budget cuts in local councils of up to 30%,
:41:29. > :41:38.balancing the books is arguably much harder. Jeremy Newham, the Audit
:41:38. > :41:41.Commission chairman, has said, "There is no one-size-fits-all
:41:41. > :41:51.formula of how councils set their local charging policies.
:41:51. > :41:57.Joining me to discuss this is the chair of the Local Government
:41:57. > :42:03.Association, Sir Merrick Cockell. Our councils being greedy? No, there
:42:03. > :42:10.is less of a story than you might think. The figure hasn't changed and
:42:10. > :42:16.is about 2004. We are seeing slight changes in the sentences of councils
:42:16. > :42:20.that you say are gaining -- percentages of councils that are
:42:20. > :42:23.gaining more in fees than Council tax but it tells you that many of
:42:23. > :42:30.those councils are the lowest charges of council tax. Parking is
:42:30. > :42:34.the one that most people are upset about. How about adult social care,
:42:34. > :42:40.school meals, burials and cremations. These are services that
:42:40. > :42:46.we charge for and we have to pay, they do not come without a cost. It
:42:46. > :42:50.is the whole range, about 10% of what we spend overall in local
:42:50. > :42:55.government that comes from fees and charges. It is parking, residence
:42:55. > :43:02.permits, fines, the things that get people by rate. If people think
:43:02. > :43:05.councils are just making it more expensive, particularly in parts of
:43:05. > :43:12.councils are just making it more London, what are they doing? There
:43:12. > :43:16.are two parts to parking, one is charging you for a car park and the
:43:16. > :43:24.other one is finds, you can't predict the level of fines. We get
:43:24. > :43:29.about 60% more overall than we spend on parking controls. That 60%
:43:29. > :43:39.doesn't just go into some imaginary bank account. That is good to know.
:43:39. > :43:45.It has to go into other parking, other road things. Sorting out the
:43:45. > :43:49.potholes... Does it go into those other things? Taxpayers don't
:43:50. > :43:53.believe that is where it goes, they will say they don't see those
:43:53. > :43:56.improvements. They make all this money, some people believe they
:43:56. > :43:59.employ more people to put the tickets on your car, which is why
:43:59. > :44:05.they get even more cash and they don't put it back into the service?
:44:05. > :44:10.Those are the government rules so we have to spend it within
:44:11. > :44:15.transportation. It could be subsidising the reduced, or free
:44:15. > :44:18.passes for the elderly. It could be going directly into road
:44:19. > :44:21.improvements and new schemes. Generally within the transportation
:44:21. > :44:29.description, that is where it is being used. London... It is very few
:44:29. > :44:34.councils. Most councils don't make a profit on their parking. I spent a
:44:34. > :44:38.lot of time when I was leading my local council. The idea that you
:44:38. > :44:42.just put up parking charges, the consumer does what it does in every
:44:42. > :44:45.thing, it decides it is not going to spend that money. You think you are
:44:45. > :44:51.putting up the charges but your income goes down. It is a carefully
:44:51. > :45:05.calibrated as to what the market can afford.
:45:05. > :45:09.. Areas, where there is a surplus thaw put it into things that are
:45:09. > :45:14.needed. You might look... Why can't you transfer money across the
:45:14. > :45:17.sectors? It frees up the pressure in other parts if you can use some of
:45:17. > :45:25.that. If you make a parking surplus and you can use it on potholes you
:45:25. > :45:31.don't have to use taxpayer money to do the pot hells -- potholes. The
:45:31. > :45:35.vast majority of councils are not making a surplus and as we know the
:45:35. > :45:40.overall position is we are losing about close to 40% now, and we kept
:45:40. > :45:46.council tax down and kept fees down, they are the same as nine years ago.
:45:46. > :45:51.Do you feel sympathy for councils? I do rather. I think Eric Pickles is
:45:51. > :45:55.so anxious to preserve his status as the tribune of the people he
:45:55. > :45:59.sometimes gets his facts wrong. I was hope he was watching, because
:45:59. > :46:02.his whole complaint today goes against the grain of this. He
:46:02. > :46:07.doesn't seem aware that money raised for parking has to be spent on
:46:07. > :46:12.parking related service, and so in a sense, he is the opposition
:46:12. > :46:19.politician still who seems to have forgotten he is Secretary of State
:46:19. > :46:24.responsible for this. Do you agree with that, yes or no? Well, the
:46:24. > :46:30.Secretary of State is intitled to give his view but he doesn't control
:46:30. > :46:36.things at a local level. They are taken according to local services.
:46:36. > :46:40.Our reporter has been out and about at conference with his mood box but
:46:40. > :46:44.on the last day of the Labour Conference he decided to tackle the
:46:44. > :46:49.big ideas. Believe it or not some people think
:46:49. > :46:53.our mood box trivialises thing, today we are going to prove it can
:46:53. > :46:59.handle some of the biggest political issue, we will ask Labour delegates
:46:59. > :47:04.to choose between socialism and capitalism.
:47:04. > :47:13.Are you a socialist or capitalist? That is a no brainer, isn't it, when
:47:13. > :47:18.you come here. I don't expect that to fill up at all. You expect there
:47:18. > :47:25.will be no balls in the capitalist box. I think I am going to put it
:47:25. > :47:29.there. In the middle. You have gone for the third way, that is very
:47:29. > :47:36.1988ish of you. I think you can learn a lot from Blair's legacy. Are
:47:37. > :47:41.you a sober list or capitalist? I am not getting involved in your ball
:47:41. > :47:47.games today. -- socialist. It should be obvious
:47:47. > :47:52.to all sections of society. I don't think anybody benefit froms from
:47:52. > :47:55.capitalist. The more we can move to our socialist roots, the better we
:47:55. > :47:59.will be. Do you feel there is enough
:47:59. > :48:04.socialism being displayed here? Definitely, in his speech yesterday
:48:04. > :48:08.our leader brought socialism back and showed that Labour is going to
:48:08. > :48:11.be left-wing and be progressive and we are doing what is best for the
:48:11. > :48:18.people. What are you prepared to give up, so that the world becomes
:48:18. > :48:23.more socialist? Give up? I guess I would give up my neckache trainers
:48:23. > :48:30.6789 How can peep people say capitalism? Do you think they have
:48:30. > :48:36.come to the wrong conference. The Americans are getting confused
:48:36. > :48:40.between either Nazi socialism or Communist socialism. Are you are a
:48:40. > :48:45.capitalist or socialist? What was that? Sober list And a very loud
:48:45. > :48:50.one. Is the energy policy a socialist policy or capitalist
:48:50. > :48:56.policy. Pro-competition policy, that what we need. We can't stick with
:48:56. > :49:00.six companies running everything. That sounds sober list. It is about
:49:00. > :49:06.making sure we have proper government regulation. Why
:49:06. > :49:14.socialism, why will no-one say the word? We are being filmed by rivals.
:49:14. > :49:19.So you have coined a new one? I am a responsible capitalist. We don't
:49:19. > :49:25.have a box for that You should have replaced it. Is Labour a responsible
:49:25. > :49:27.capitalist kind of party? I think it is. I think that was Ed was talking
:49:27. > :49:31.capitalist kind of party? I think it about. That is what he talked about
:49:31. > :49:37.last yore and the year before, it is where the public is. Because we are
:49:37. > :49:40.not going to go back to the 0s. Can you explain what socialism is and
:49:40. > :49:47.capitalism and I will put a ball in the box on where I think we should
:49:47. > :49:55.be. You have hid the nail on the head, a postism world? You are
:49:55. > :50:00.asking questions about socialism and capitalism and you say we are in a
:50:00. > :50:04.postism word No I said are we? Your point is those labels are inadequate
:50:04. > :50:10.You are asking questions and I would point is those labels are inadequate
:50:10. > :50:15.like toe know what you mean by those phrases. We are doing a survey. I
:50:15. > :50:20.know these surveys, You know what the question is, we have come es
:50:20. > :50:25.pressed 200 years history into two minutes and we are asking people to
:50:26. > :50:31.choose socialism or capitalism. Socialism. Don't tell people you are
:50:31. > :50:42.voting for me because people might say the BBC is compromised!
:50:42. > :50:48.What did you say about the people who put it in the capitalist box We
:50:48. > :50:53.think they might be Blairites. There isn't many left. How does it feel
:50:53. > :50:58.being one of six capitalist in the whole conference I am into
:50:58. > :51:03.responsible capitalism, and if you want a dynamic market economy, I am
:51:03. > :51:07.into that as well. Things can only get better as far as I'm concerned
:51:07. > :51:11.is. Where have I heard that phrase before? The Shadow Chancellor is
:51:11. > :51:17.tired because he has done a rowing challenge. And came top of the whole
:51:17. > :51:23.conference. You look like you need to sit down.
:51:23. > :51:32.Here it goes. A historic moment where a member of the current
:51:32. > :51:36.cabinet says they are a socialist The NHS, Labour social values in
:51:36. > :51:42.accuse, proud to say. What history could not settle in a hundred year,
:51:42. > :51:46.we have settled in three minute, socialism has triumphed over
:51:46. > :51:50.capitalism at the Labour Party Conference.ment surprise, surprise.
:51:50. > :51:54.Joining us to discuss this, frankly shocking finding, and also, I
:51:54. > :52:06.thought Ed Balls was having far too much fun with the mod box: Dan Jones
:52:06. > :52:10.claims to have put all them in the capitalist box. I presume you would
:52:10. > :52:14.have put it in the capitalism one? I think, you know, having a debate
:52:14. > :52:17.about socialism or cappism in Britain is like having a debate
:52:17. > :52:21.about whether you want to breathe air or water. Whoever wins the next
:52:21. > :52:27.election this will be a capitalist economy, that is whether Ed Miliband
:52:27. > :52:33.or David Cameron win, the debate is do they pursue a left-wing political
:52:33. > :52:38.strategy or a centrist political strategy in the run-up to the
:52:38. > :52:42.election, now if you think about it, New Labour introduced what most
:52:43. > :52:46.people would be classical left-wing policy, the windfall tax, the
:52:46. > :52:50.minimum wage, signing the Social Chapter but because of what Blair
:52:50. > :52:52.was saying, the sort of conhave Assembly governments he was having
:52:52. > :52:55.with the British people and where he was positioning himself on the
:52:55. > :53:01.political spectrum, they weren't seen ass been left-wing, they were
:53:01. > :53:07.seen as centrist. Socialism for you? Of course, I find it amusing the
:53:07. > :53:14.reds under the beds rhetoric, along the lines of comparing Ed
:53:14. > :53:18.Miliband... Most people out there, outside of politicos like us sitting
:53:18. > :53:25.here, they don't think in terms of left and right, let alone capitalism
:53:25. > :53:30.or socialism. They think in terms of issues that have to be addressed you
:53:30. > :53:35.might find in amusing but the first time Labour called it a democratic
:53:35. > :53:39.Socialist Party wasn't when it was founded, it was 1995, under Tony
:53:39. > :53:43.Blair, it was a revision of clause four, now I think for Blair it meant
:53:43. > :53:48.motherhood and apple pie and people being nice to each other, for me it
:53:48. > :53:51.is shifting wealth and power favour of working people, that is those who
:53:51. > :53:55.keep society ticking, the wealth creators of society, it is about
:53:55. > :53:59.extending democracy to every sphere of life, but it is about challenging
:53:59. > :54:05.the form of socialism we have which is socialism for the rich. Banks
:54:05. > :54:08.bailed out by the taxpayer. Housing benefit, subsidising private
:54:08. > :54:12.landlords in having democratic socialism. Whose side you on? You
:54:12. > :54:17.will be on the side of the Conservatives and the wealth quay
:54:17. > :54:22.fors. He is Cameron's favourite columnist. Our Prime Minister is
:54:22. > :54:28.very acceptive! The whole point about centrist political agenda is
:54:28. > :54:32.it does contain significant elements of left-wing thinking sh if you
:54:32. > :54:39.remove the left-wing elements it is not a centrist political agenda.
:54:39. > :54:43.Where would you put your... We are at the wrong end of the argument.
:54:43. > :54:48.David Cameron tried to do it and at the wrong end of the argument.
:54:48. > :54:52.flunked it, Miliband has put out a proposal will be much modified by
:54:52. > :54:56.time it happen, one way or another politicians will be forced to
:54:56. > :55:01.respond to the fact that household energy, in cold winter, for a lot of
:55:01. > :55:06.Brit, is becoming unaffordable and I think that is really what this
:55:06. > :55:09.conference was about. That is an important point. What is interesting
:55:09. > :55:13.about this debate about energy companies if you like is for a lot
:55:13. > :55:19.of British people, he won't be going forward. 69% of Britains want --
:55:19. > :55:25.Britons want energy to be brought back in to public ownership. He is
:55:25. > :55:29.going back to 70s. Whatever the headlines say, energy barons holding
:55:29. > :55:32.the country to ransom, we have blackmail and bluster because there
:55:32. > :55:38.is an attempt to control energy price, some people are choosing
:55:38. > :55:43.between heating their homes and fooding their kids. And the
:55:43. > :55:48.Twittersphere was stratospheric apparently. You are saying Ed
:55:48. > :55:53.Miliband is terrifying, why? He is scaring... He scares you. He scares
:55:53. > :55:59.the life out of me. Because it is the broader, the broader political
:55:59. > :56:05.context. David Cameron could implement a raft of policies that
:56:05. > :56:11.were add vated by the alternative manifesto I think it was called by
:56:11. > :56:15.the hard right. A number of those would be popular, but in strategic
:56:15. > :56:19.terms for David Cameron, they would be a disaster, because they would
:56:19. > :56:23.communicate, although the individual policies were popular, they would
:56:23. > :56:27.communicate that the Conservative Party was regressing to the sort of
:56:27. > :56:32.politics it has rejected and that is the risk MSP is starting to take. It
:56:32. > :56:37.maybe populist for now, no-one is going to disagree with having their
:56:38. > :56:43.bills brought down. Nobody would say I want to keep my bills high and
:56:43. > :56:46.no-one is going to be, you know, unsupportive of Ed Miliband bashing
:56:46. > :56:51.the bank, and it is popular stuff but does it win elections? People
:56:51. > :56:55.main frightened when it comes to election time. They want stadget
:56:55. > :56:59.stability and security. They don't want a party that is against
:56:59. > :57:03.business. This is the problem. It is stuck in the past, reality we have
:57:03. > :57:09.at the moment, is people are going through the biggest, longest squeeze
:57:09. > :57:13.in living standard since Queen Victoria, the next generation is set
:57:13. > :57:18.to be poorer than the last, people commit to action that will improve
:57:18. > :57:23.their living standards. Cometh the revolution. I cannot believe that Ed
:57:23. > :57:26.Miliband arrived at the Labour Party Conference and wanted to see a
:57:26. > :57:29.series of head loins saying he was taking the country back to the 70s.
:57:29. > :57:36.This is the hysteria... If Miliband taking the country back to the 70s.
:57:36. > :57:40.can put himself at the head of the little people versus a rich elite,
:57:40. > :57:44.and if Cameron allowses that to happen, it is not socialism or
:57:44. > :57:48.capitalism, but it is a winning electoral strategy. That is
:57:48. > :57:51.Cameron's challenge. There is no doubt that Ed Miliband has won the
:57:51. > :57:57.argument about which of the two party leaders is most in touch with
:57:57. > :58:00.the British people. This we go. I haven't heard you say that before.
:58:00. > :58:03.If you look at the opinion polls they ask who is in touch, Ed
:58:03. > :58:08.Miliband, you know, comes out in front. There no doubt about it. It
:58:08. > :58:16.is not about who is in touch. It is not about who empathise, it is who
:58:16. > :58:21.is seen to be best placed to solve it Can I caution your logic, you say
:58:21. > :58:24.are these are the last sort of head hypes you want to see. I have to say
:58:24. > :58:30.the right in the country are in danger of looking like the frothing
:58:30. > :58:35.at the mouth, let me finish, US-style tea party libertarians
:58:35. > :58:41.because these, as I say, the public would like to see, public would like
:58:41. > :58:48.to see him go further, they support public ownership. We will have to
:58:49. > :58:56.stop it there. Thanks to our guests, the One O'Clock News is starting on
:58:56. > :58:56.BBC One and Andrew is back tonight on BBC One with This