:00:40. > :00:46.afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. The dish gas has an
:00:47. > :00:52.early Christmas present for you. Electricity is up 10.4%. Gas is up
:00:53. > :00:58.8.4%. That's both from late November. The company says it
:00:59. > :01:01.understands the frustration. The Energy Secretary says he is
:01:02. > :01:05.disappointed. He urges unhappy customers to switch to other
:01:06. > :01:14.providers. Should benefits for wealthy pensioners be cut? And
:01:15. > :01:25.should the win, when -- minimum wage be increased? Expect Alex Salmond to
:01:26. > :01:32.address the SNP conference later, but can he smile his way to the
:01:33. > :01:35.independent Scotland he desires? And I'll be asking why the government
:01:36. > :01:41.wants to change the rules on what is an official secret. But don't tell
:01:42. > :01:47.anybody about it. All of that is in the next hour. With us for the
:01:48. > :01:53.duration is a man with a CV as long as my arm. A scientist, journalist,
:01:54. > :01:57.businessman, peer of the realm, officially the 5th Viscount Ridley.
:01:58. > :02:04.But we don't do titles on the show, so he is just plain old Matt Ridley.
:02:05. > :02:10.First, the House of Lords, our guest is one of those, he has been
:02:11. > :02:13.actually elected. Not by you or me, but he won an election as a
:02:14. > :02:17.Conservative peer, making one of the so-called 92, the number of
:02:18. > :02:21.hereditary peers that retained membership by being elected by other
:02:22. > :02:25.members. There is a report out from the Commons committee, that wants to
:02:26. > :02:30.do away with that, saying that hereditary peers should not be
:02:31. > :02:33.replaced in this way when they die. The report from the Political and
:02:34. > :02:38.Constitutional Reform Committee also backs moves to expel lawbreaking
:02:39. > :02:42.peers and those members that do not attend on a regular basis. That
:02:43. > :02:47.should be a pretty big cull, if you start to take them out. Time to do
:02:48. > :02:53.away with hereditary peers? Lords reform is needed, everybody agrees
:02:54. > :02:56.we need some kind of reform. But to pick on this one element, hereditary
:02:57. > :03:00.peers and stop the elections to allow them to replace themselves,
:03:01. > :03:05.that would be a pity. I'm in favour of an all elected house. How would
:03:06. > :03:10.you elected? Some kind of regional system. I wonder why we can't go
:03:11. > :03:18.back to the ancient Greek system of picking them by Lott. Out of a hat?
:03:19. > :03:21.The committee suggests expelling lawbreakers and non-attendees. I
:03:22. > :03:24.think a lot of people would be surprised that doesn't happen
:03:25. > :03:28.already. If you break the law, why should you sit and make laws for us?
:03:29. > :03:32.If you don't bother to turn up for a long while, why should you be
:03:33. > :03:36.allowed in the place? I think that is a fair comment. I suspect a lot
:03:37. > :03:40.of people in the House of Lords would probably agree. One of the
:03:41. > :03:45.things that is most frustrating is that the House of Lords is now
:03:46. > :03:49.enormous. The government has announced it is going to install
:03:50. > :03:56.another 30 or so peers. Where are they going to go? Good point. We
:03:57. > :03:58.should blame Tony Blair for this. He started by increasing the number
:03:59. > :04:04.enormous e-commerce that Labour had a majority over the Conservatives.
:04:05. > :04:10.So, David is clawing his way back towards a majority over Labour. He
:04:11. > :04:13.is not quite there yet. The House of Lords, which overall does not really
:04:14. > :04:17.matter, is now eight times larger than the US Senate, which is the
:04:18. > :04:22.most important legislative body in the world? I think we are something
:04:23. > :04:29.like the only other house in the world that is larger than the lower
:04:30. > :04:33.house. You are even bigger than the European Parliament. That is not
:04:34. > :04:36.exactly a byword for efficiency. That may come to our defence for a
:04:37. > :04:41.second. The House of Lords is full of expertise. This studio is full of
:04:42. > :04:48.experts. Why do we need them in the Lords? To introduce legislation for
:04:49. > :04:52.the better. People can influence things on the show, the Commons has
:04:53. > :04:55.to take notice of them. It is a club for dumping the establishment when
:04:56. > :04:59.there is nothing else to do with them. You sit in Cabinet, Labour,
:05:00. > :05:03.Conservative and Lib Dem, when that bit is over you get kicked upstairs
:05:04. > :05:10.and you still collect the dosh, you get to use House of Lords notepaper.
:05:11. > :05:17.A lot of bills come to the House of Lords in a state of disarray and get
:05:18. > :05:21.improved. There are some surprising examples of hard work going on. Late
:05:22. > :05:26.at night, some of these people you are so rude about their drafting new
:05:27. > :05:33.clauses and things like that. Having time to debate a clause. Yesterday,
:05:34. > :05:37.we voted one thing down and two things down. There are changes made
:05:38. > :05:40.in the Lords. We know that, it's just difficult to work out what your
:05:41. > :05:46.democratic legitimacy as for doing so. That is a fair point. Time for
:05:47. > :05:51.the daily quiz. Today's question is, what is Prince Charles's latest
:05:52. > :05:57.hobbyhorse? Is it Paul pointy buildings, wind farms, pension funds
:05:58. > :06:04.or the price of biscuits? Towards the end of the show we will give you
:06:05. > :06:05.the correct answer. The government's Social Mobility and
:06:06. > :06:09.Child Poverty Commission, chaired by former Labour minister Alan Milburn,
:06:10. > :06:13.has published its first annual report to Parliament. It commends
:06:14. > :06:16.some have meant initiatives on apprenticeships and education, it
:06:17. > :06:19.says there has been a lack of progress on improving social
:06:20. > :06:21.mobility. More needs to be done to help children from modest
:06:22. > :06:27.backgrounds to move up the social scale. The goal of eradicating child
:06:28. > :06:31.poverty by 2020 will likely be missed. According to the OECD,
:06:32. > :06:36.Britain ranks amongst the worst countries in the developed world in
:06:37. > :06:40.terms of social mobility. Last year, Nick Clegg described the situation
:06:41. > :06:43.as an absolute scandal. The commission warns that many children
:06:44. > :06:46.are people on low and middle incomes are likely to be the first for more
:06:47. > :06:51.than a century that will grow up worse off than their parents. The
:06:52. > :06:56.report makes a series of recommendations. The minimum wage
:06:57. > :07:01.should go up. It is now worth ?1000 per year less in real terms than in
:07:02. > :07:05.2008. Workers have seen the real value of wages decline. Government
:07:06. > :07:08.money to help with childcare costs should be redirected from higher
:07:09. > :07:14.income families to people on low pay. Unpaid internships as a way
:07:15. > :07:18.into professional careers should be ended. And the burden of tackling
:07:19. > :07:23.Britain's deficit needs to be shared more fairly. So far, pensioners have
:07:24. > :07:25.seen their benefits, like winter fuel allowance, protected, while
:07:26. > :07:30.younger people have had benefits cut. Clegg says he welcomes much of
:07:31. > :07:35.the report. On the last point he strikes a note of caution. Writing
:07:36. > :07:38.in the Daily Telegraph he says, punishing pensioners is not going to
:07:39. > :07:45.help a single child achieve more in life. Alan Milburn, the author of
:07:46. > :07:52.the report is with us. Welcome back to the Daily Politics. Has this
:07:53. > :07:57.permission achieved anything? Time will tell. Our job is to report on
:07:58. > :08:00.what is going on. Nick Clegg said when he set up the commission that
:08:01. > :08:04.he wanted us to hold the government's feet to the fire. I
:08:05. > :08:10.hope we have done that. It is now a scatter-gun approach. It is all
:08:11. > :08:15.sorts of things that people will find very tenuous in the link with
:08:16. > :08:22.social mobility. For example, the minimum wage. When the minimum wage
:08:23. > :08:27.was worth ?1000 more in real terms, in 2008, social mobility was not any
:08:28. > :08:30.better. It depends on your diagnosis of the problem. We say that child
:08:31. > :08:35.poverty, which has been falling for a decade, is now rising. Everybody
:08:36. > :08:38.knows that the 2020 target is not going to be met. The really worrying
:08:39. > :08:42.thing is that there is no evidence we can see in the recovery, and
:08:43. > :08:49.thank God it is happening, we can see no evidence of the decade-long
:08:50. > :08:54.trend when the top part has prospered and the bottom part has
:08:55. > :08:57.stagnated, that that is going to come to an end. That will have an
:08:58. > :09:03.impact on social mobility. The question is, what is the Government,
:09:04. > :09:09.employers and society willing to do about that? We cannot will the ends,
:09:10. > :09:12.but not will the means. So many things you are proposing seem pretty
:09:13. > :09:17.tenuous. It would take a long while to make any affect. And now you are
:09:18. > :09:21.picking on old people? We are all moving in that direction. You can
:09:22. > :09:30.say that again. We are all moving in that direction. Did you just say
:09:31. > :09:37.that again? You can say that again. Nick Clegg already says it is
:09:38. > :09:41.punishing old folk and that will not help social mobility? He is right,
:09:42. > :09:46.nobody wants to punish pensioners. The right question to ask is a
:09:47. > :09:48.straightforward one. When youth unemployment, particularly
:09:49. > :09:50.long-term, is still high, when family incomes are falling, when
:09:51. > :09:54.people on the lowest incomes are being squeezed and the poorest
:09:55. > :09:58.people are having benefits capped, is it right that wealthy pensioners
:09:59. > :10:03.are not only having benefits protect it but also enhanced? Absolutely, I
:10:04. > :10:07.understand that perfectly. I just wonder what it is going to do with
:10:08. > :10:11.social mobility. It seems strange to me that very wealthy pensioners get
:10:12. > :10:16.a winter fuel allowance... The Queen is entitled. The Queen is entitled,
:10:17. > :10:20.all sorts of people are entitled to it, and yet benefits are being cut
:10:21. > :10:24.elsewhere. For the life of me, I don't see how it helps social
:10:25. > :10:30.mobility? For this reason, if we can free those resources up, and we
:10:31. > :10:38.estimate, the IFS fiscal studies Institute estimate, if we give
:10:39. > :10:40.entitlements to the poorest pensioners and take it away from the
:10:41. > :10:45.wealthiest, it would save one point ?4 billion. Where would I invest
:10:46. > :10:48.that? And education maintenance allowance to make sure that poor
:10:49. > :10:57.kids stay on at school. Good for social mobility. That is better for
:10:58. > :11:01.social mobility, parents and carers get more of a chance to get on in
:11:02. > :11:05.life. More to help parents get out to work, good for social mobility.
:11:06. > :11:09.There are always choices in government to be made, however
:11:10. > :11:12.difficult the circumstances. You take ?1.4 billion from people that
:11:13. > :11:15.do not deserve it, you spend is the way you have done, the problem is,
:11:16. > :11:21.your last government shows it does not work. You've doubled per capita
:11:22. > :11:24.spending on schools, school pupils in the last Labour Government. The
:11:25. > :11:32.latest OECD report shows us tumbling down the tables, almost last in the
:11:33. > :11:35.major economies. It's not money that is the problem. It is interesting
:11:36. > :11:42.there is no mention of schools or education. There is a whole chapter
:11:43. > :11:46.on schools. If we had decent schools that taught kids to read and write,
:11:47. > :11:50.created a culture that the world was their oyster, that nothing could
:11:51. > :11:55.hold them back, and we had great teachers that inspired that, job
:11:56. > :11:58.done on social mobility? You should be on my commission and you should
:11:59. > :12:03.read that chapter on that report. For example, if we had have this
:12:04. > :12:07.conversation 20 years ago, where would we have said the problem is?
:12:08. > :12:10.We would have said it was in London and the inner cities. The state
:12:11. > :12:17.schools were so terrible. Today, the best state schools in the country
:12:18. > :12:22.are in London. Today, the worst schools are probably in the North of
:12:23. > :12:26.England. That didn't happen by accident, it was by design. A
:12:27. > :12:29.massive effort to recruit the best teachers into the worst schools.
:12:30. > :12:35.That paid dividends. Michael Gove should take heed. Do you get
:12:36. > :12:39.frustrated by the lack of progress? It is frustrating for me, in a
:12:40. > :12:43.sense. But it is bloody frustrating for people that want to get on in
:12:44. > :12:48.life. It is very frustrating, you know the people that I feel most
:12:49. > :12:51.sorry for, the people that used to come to my surgeries when I was a
:12:52. > :12:55.member of Parliament, the people that were the strivers. They were
:12:56. > :12:58.going to work, standing on their own feet, doing the right thing. There
:12:59. > :13:01.are 5 million of them in this country. They earn less than the
:13:02. > :13:04.living wage. Most of them are women. They listen to what
:13:05. > :13:08.politicians are saying and those other people that need a new deal
:13:09. > :13:10.that is why I think the national minimum wage needs to rise and go
:13:11. > :13:17.back to the level, at least, that was in 2008. Do you think social
:13:18. > :13:20.mobility has got worse? Yes, I do. I think it is clear that the leaders
:13:21. > :13:24.of society that came through the grammar school system have given way
:13:25. > :13:30.to people like me, who... Well, I am not a leader of society, but people
:13:31. > :13:34.who have had a privileged education. It was not so easy for people over
:13:35. > :13:41.the last 20 or 30 years to go from the bottom to the top, through the
:13:42. > :13:48.education system. On this point of wages being supported by benefits at
:13:49. > :13:51.the lower end, which is an interesting and key point, surely do
:13:52. > :13:54.think there is that we have got to get unemployment down. Then you
:13:55. > :13:59.start getting competition amongst employers to drive up wages. That is
:14:00. > :14:04.beginning to happen. We saw 1 million new jobs since the election.
:14:05. > :14:08.But I do not think it is either-or. If you have 2.5 million people
:14:09. > :14:13.unemployed, you have long-term unemployment amongst young people at
:14:14. > :14:17.a 20 year high, of course more has to be done to create jobs and get
:14:18. > :14:23.people into jobs. The old idea that a job was the cue for poverty is,
:14:24. > :14:29.I'm afraid, unproven. -- Q. It is disproven by the fact that two in
:14:30. > :14:33.three kids, that the government says are officially poor, and not in a
:14:34. > :14:37.workless family, not in a work-shy family, in a working family. Those
:14:38. > :14:41.people are doing the right thing. They are going out to work. The
:14:42. > :14:49.problem is that they don't earn enough to escape poverty. But if we
:14:50. > :14:52.could free up the housing market and the energy market, we will probably
:14:53. > :14:59.come to that later, you can see, actually, the diminution of the
:15:00. > :15:03.outgoings. It is both, there are two sides to the equation. One is in
:15:04. > :15:07.earnings and the other is prices. In the end, I personally think that
:15:08. > :15:11.governments have precious little locus when it comes to cost of
:15:12. > :15:14.living. I think they should introduce more competition, not
:15:15. > :15:20.less. That is the way to solve many of the problems. It feels, if you
:15:21. > :15:24.are on the receiving end of a 10% hike in electricity bills, or 8% in
:15:25. > :15:31.gas bills, that feels like a long way away. One thing that would help
:15:32. > :15:38.if we had really good technical skills and they have a status, the
:15:39. > :15:43.way they have in Germany or Sweden. That would create a path way for the
:15:44. > :15:48.none academic and they would start their own businesses and the rest of
:15:49. > :15:53.it. So a bit of encouraging, do you think to see Ben Baker's
:15:54. > :16:04.announcement his move in that direction? : Yes I like what Ken
:16:05. > :16:12.announced and the UTCs he anouzed -- he anewsed -- announced. We
:16:13. > :16:16.criticised politicians for 30 years focussing on kids going into higher
:16:17. > :16:23.education, but not the other 50% who are going into vocational education,
:16:24. > :16:28.more apprenticeships a good thing, but one and a half learners are in
:16:29. > :16:33.further education colleges which are deemed unsatisfactory. That is one
:16:34. > :16:38.and a half million people too many. One proposal we make is the colleges
:16:39. > :16:45.should be paid not according to the numbers they recruit, but in terms
:16:46. > :16:50.of the outcomes they achieve. Internships have become
:16:51. > :16:58.controversial, because the top jobs, the ones kids want to get into are
:16:59. > :17:03.largely in London. Yes. And they're unpaid and if you're a kid coming
:17:04. > :17:07.out a college from Middlesbrough or Glasgow, you can't come to London if
:17:08. > :17:11.there is no money. So they go to kids who are already here and those
:17:12. > :17:16.who have parents that can subsidise them. You want to get rid of them.
:17:17. > :17:20.Is it your idea that the Government should, you could stop the public
:17:21. > :17:26.sector doing that and it would be helpful if some political parties
:17:27. > :17:30.stopped doing it. Indeed. We see them on the web-sites, do you want
:17:31. > :17:35.the Government to actually legislate to ban private companies from doibg
:17:36. > :17:42.it? -- doing? No, I don't think that is the way to do it. The thing that
:17:43. > :17:46.has changed is if you want to go into professional employment there
:17:47. > :17:50.is a new rung on the ladder called internship and if you want to become
:17:51. > :17:54.a doctor, you have got to get work experience. If you want to be a
:17:55. > :17:58.lawyer, you have got to get work expeernts, the -- experience, the
:17:59. > :18:02.question is who gets the work experience and sadly it goes to
:18:03. > :18:08.people on the basis of who you know and not what you know. That has got
:18:09. > :18:11.to change. I think whether or not these things are paid makes a
:18:12. > :18:19.difference. It is a sort of arms race. When I was at university, none
:18:20. > :18:24.of my friend got internships. Now if you don have something lined up,
:18:25. > :18:28.everyone thinks your child will be a failure and the parents get more
:18:29. > :18:34.competitive. It is a big change in the labour market. All I would ask
:18:35. > :18:37.is if it is a new rung opt ladder, employers wouldn't think for
:18:38. > :18:43.appointing any other member of the staff to not advertise a job or not
:18:44. > :18:47.to pay a job. All I ask is for a level playing field. Do the same for
:18:48. > :18:52.sberpships, because they're the route into work as for other members
:18:53. > :19:01.of staff. The Tories didn't do themselves any faves when their
:19:02. > :19:06.donors could bid for interns. Yes, I suspect that isn't a problem that is
:19:07. > :19:12.limited to one partin't Where -- to one party. Where next? Onwards and
:19:13. > :19:22.upwards. But we are going backwards and down wards on this it is getting
:19:23. > :19:28.tougherer for a -- tougher for a bright kid to get into a job. When I
:19:29. > :19:34.came to this city in the dark ages, I was against the old school tie,
:19:35. > :19:40.which was more prevalent than the internships, pause it was -- because
:19:41. > :19:44.it was rv I where. But if you had good education and that gave you
:19:45. > :19:49.confidence and ambition, I mean we took the old tie on and won. Look,
:19:50. > :19:56.if you ask me, I get asked, if you could do one thing what would it be,
:19:57. > :19:59.the key to unlock this, the answer I think is education and
:20:00. > :20:05.employability. It has got to be. So it is great that school standards
:20:06. > :20:10.have improved and that the education attainment gap between poor kids and
:20:11. > :20:14.wealthier kids has narrowed. But boy, oh boy, there is a long way to
:20:15. > :20:19.go. Things like free schools can make a difference and most
:20:20. > :20:25.importantly of all paying good teachers the best to go and teach in
:20:26. > :20:31.the worst schools I believe could transform this. Finland has done
:20:32. > :20:36.some of that too and they expect high standards from the teachers.
:20:37. > :20:41.Thank you Alan Milburn. Always good to talk to you on this subject. Now
:20:42. > :20:47.Ed Milliband announced a new policy today. He is full of policies today,
:20:48. > :20:52.he wants to impose a new levy on pay day lender, the wonga type ones, who
:20:53. > :20:59.are always on TV and use the money, he wants to use the money to double
:21:00. > :21:04.the money for credit unions. He has appointed a new leader of the
:21:05. > :21:10.campaign against what are known as legal loan sharks, something you
:21:11. > :21:16.think she should have done before. She joins us now. Sarah Creasey
:21:17. > :21:22.welcome to the show. Explain what you want the policies should be to
:21:23. > :21:27.these pay day loan merchants? First we are committed now to a total cost
:21:28. > :21:32.cap and capping what these companies can charge, because the problem is
:21:33. > :21:37.this credit is too expensive and a lot of people who borrow in this way
:21:38. > :21:42.end up in debt and having to borrow more. We think pause these --
:21:43. > :21:47.because these companies are causing so much damage that it is right they
:21:48. > :21:51.take responsibility and pay back for credit unions and debt advice and
:21:52. > :21:57.things that can help people get out of the trap. So it is pay back time.
:21:58. > :22:02.It seems there are two parts. First, you say you will cap the amount of
:22:03. > :22:06.interest they can charge is that right? No, not the interest, the
:22:07. > :22:11.total cost of the spire loan. In this industry, 50% of the profits
:22:12. > :22:14.come from default charges. If you just cap the interest rate or
:22:15. > :22:19.charges, they make up the money elsewhere. Taking the entire cost of
:22:20. > :22:25.the loan, a gap and setting a ceiling and preventing the problems.
:22:26. > :22:33.It is what a lot of other countries are doing. So if I borrow ?100,
:22:34. > :22:39.because we are usually talking smallish amounts, what would be the
:22:40. > :22:43.cap and I'm in a bit of default, I see these interest rates are rising,
:22:44. > :22:49.what will the cap be? Well, we need a cap that works with the UK market
:22:50. > :22:53.and we wanted the Financial Conduct Authority to have the cap. I don't
:22:54. > :22:57.think politicians can set a specific cap. We need the regulator to work
:22:58. > :23:00.with the industry to set that cap. The problem is now they're not using
:23:01. > :23:05.that power and not gathering the evidence to use that power and the
:23:06. > :23:09.Government says, we are not sure about capping. The millions
:23:10. > :23:15.borrowing in this way can't weight for this to happen. Can you have a
:23:16. > :23:20.cap or can't you? You can have a cap in law. We fought hard to give them
:23:21. > :23:28.the power. But they're not using it. What whoub the cap? -- What would be
:23:29. > :23:39.the cap. In other caps tefest they have had -- they have had caps for
:23:40. > :23:44.say ?15 per ?100. It leads to lower levels of debts and is the one thing
:23:45. > :23:48.that can change the behaviour of the companies and the fact that
:23:49. > :23:53.Government talks about it not being a good idea is a problem. Because
:23:54. > :23:57.millions are stuck in this trap. You, what you're talking about, the
:23:58. > :24:02.second part of the policy, is this to be a levy on the pay day lenders?
:24:03. > :24:08.Yes, lots of industries where their products cause problems set up
:24:09. > :24:12.voluntary organisations, like the gambling and the drinks industry.
:24:13. > :24:15.This industry have been saying they're responsible, but they have
:24:16. > :24:22.done nothing to help people in trouble. So we think they should pay
:24:23. > :24:26.to help. What would the levy be on? All these companies will have to pay
:24:27. > :24:33.to register with the new authority from April. We are talking about an
:24:34. > :24:36.additional amount and do remember some of the companies are making a
:24:37. > :24:42.million pounds a week. It is important that cap works with how
:24:43. > :24:45.those companies are operating. You're the politicians, you can't
:24:46. > :24:51.say it is up to the regulator. You have got to tell us, will this levy
:24:52. > :24:56.be on the prochts of the company -- profits of the companies, their turn
:24:57. > :25:01.over, their balance sheepts, what size -- sheets what size will it be.
:25:02. > :25:08.That is the reason experts should set a lvy. There are different ways
:25:09. > :25:14.to do it. We think even a levy just on profits would raise ?30 million a
:25:15. > :25:17.year to go into the growth fund to grow credit unions ability to work
:25:18. > :25:25.with, like the one I saw with Ed Milliband in Peckham that is lending
:25:26. > :25:31.?10 to ?15 million. What rate do they charge? They capped and the
:25:32. > :25:37.maximum they can charge is 26% interest rate. 26? Isn't that loan
:25:38. > :25:45.shark territory? Against interest rate of 6 thousand %. -- 6,000%.
:25:46. > :25:50.That is almost as bad as the credit card companies. Good you mentioned
:25:51. > :25:55.that, because the Government did a U-turn on credit cards and consumers
:25:56. > :25:59.are being scammed. Our market does not work. There are things we need
:26:00. > :26:16.to do. All right it seems there is a lot to do. Thank you for coming on
:26:17. > :26:19.the show today. So it's not a good day if you're a customer of British
:26:20. > :26:22.Gas. They've just announced an increase in electricity prices of
:26:23. > :26:27.over 10% and of gas prices of over 8%. The Energy Secretary Ed Davey
:26:28. > :26:37.urged customers to switch companies and had this to say in the Commons.
:26:38. > :26:44.It is disappointing news for British Gas customers. British Gas will need
:26:45. > :26:48.to justify their decision openly and transparently to bill-by aers.
:26:49. > :26:52.British Gas was the only company not to meet its targets under the
:26:53. > :26:56.previous obligation to make its customers' homes more energy
:26:57. > :27:03.efficient. That left more homes cold. So British Gas has fallen in
:27:04. > :27:09.failing to meet its targets. I hope the honourable lady with that can
:27:10. > :27:14.join with me in making sure that British Gas does, is more
:27:15. > :27:18.transparent about its costs. We are pushing competition and I would urge
:27:19. > :27:27.skus hers of -- customers of British Gas to change their supplier. That
:27:28. > :27:35.was a rather angry energy Secretary. He found out as he was taking
:27:36. > :27:39.questions in the House of Commons. And we're joined now by the Shadow
:27:40. > :27:42.Energy Secretary, Caroline Flint. And also Greg Barker. There is the
:27:43. > :27:45.ball on the table, there is an open goal over there, would you like to
:27:46. > :27:49.kick the ball? Today again we are seeing the public are paying the
:27:50. > :27:54.price, because the Government haven't stootd up to these
:27:55. > :27:57.companies. They hike their prices at the expense of the consumer and the
:27:58. > :28:04.Government should do something. We have set out our package, that is to
:28:05. > :28:10.freeze the prices from the day of the general election to January 2017
:28:11. > :28:17.but as part of a package to reform the market. To give us time to get
:28:18. > :28:24.legislation through to reform the market. We are getting eye watering
:28:25. > :28:28.rises. We saw the latest average wage figures and it is under 1%. If
:28:29. > :28:34.you're in the public sector, your pay is falling. But your prices for
:28:35. > :28:40.British Gas are going up 10%. With Eno what Labour would do -- we know
:28:41. > :28:45.what Labour would do, you can disagree, but you're not doing
:28:46. > :28:51.anything are you? On the contrary we are doing a great deal but we are
:28:52. > :29:00.not trying to con people. We Eno hard working people are -- we know
:29:01. > :29:04.hard working people are there and they need more competition and make
:29:05. > :29:09.it easier for people to switch and to bring in new entrants to the
:29:10. > :29:15.market and challenge the big six created under the last Labour
:29:16. > :29:19.Government and rather than increase regulation and bind them in tighter
:29:20. > :29:22.and create greater barriers to entry for new independent companies we
:29:23. > :29:28.need to break down the barriers and bring in the consumer champions, not
:29:29. > :29:38.scare off investment, but all the independent companies the ones we
:29:39. > :29:43.want to deliver the choice. The problem is that we have got to a
:29:44. > :29:47.situation today were these companies dominate 98% of the market. They
:29:48. > :29:50.dominate energy and sell it to themselves before they sell it to
:29:51. > :29:54.us. Other people cannot get a slice of the pie to put downward pressure
:29:55. > :29:58.on prices. That is why we want a power exchange, where all energy put
:29:59. > :30:01.into the exchange, including from independent generators, the big six
:30:02. > :30:08.and other people that want to retail energy can come in and competitively
:30:09. > :30:16.bid to buy energies. That is what we used to do, though? Pretty much?
:30:17. > :30:20.No, the problem was that we only had two generators, they held all of the
:30:21. > :30:24.cards and there was criticism of gaming that system. We are looking
:30:25. > :30:28.at the system the Scandinavian countries use, where we can have
:30:29. > :30:34.two-way bids from generators and retailers. I think we are all agreed
:30:35. > :30:38.we want much more competition and we want to burst the market open. But
:30:39. > :30:45.we don't agree that Labour's return to the 1970s... It's not! Is the way
:30:46. > :30:48.to go. We want to work with independents to open up the energy
:30:49. > :30:52.market. We are bringing through the House of Commons at the market, in
:30:53. > :30:56.fact up House of Lords, we are driving reforms with the biggest
:30:57. > :31:00.package of measures we have seen, probably for ten or 15 years,
:31:01. > :31:03.possibly since privatisation. But it is not enough. There is a wider
:31:04. > :31:06.debate about reforms that are necessary. We need to make sure
:31:07. > :31:12.there is a firewall between these companies generating arms and their
:31:13. > :31:17.retailing arms. We said we would look at the president of this in
:31:18. > :31:23.separating energy companies. At the heart of all of this, is also having
:31:24. > :31:26.a system or a delay should, a better system of regulation, not just
:31:27. > :31:30.layering over, that can get to the heart of what the true price of
:31:31. > :31:36.energy is. We know wholesale costs are less than they were in 2008. We
:31:37. > :31:41.had a drop in 2009 of 45% and that has not been reflected in bills.
:31:42. > :31:46.Ofgem, who I criticise a lot, have done reports saying it is rockets
:31:47. > :31:53.and feathers, the reductions are not being passed on. People watching
:31:54. > :31:58.this are worked up about it. The bottom line is that you are going to
:31:59. > :32:01.do nothing about this 10% rise? The people watching this today,
:32:02. > :32:06.customers of British Gas, they are paying 10%. This is Great Britain,
:32:07. > :32:11.not East Germany. As much as Caroline wants to drag us back to
:32:12. > :32:15.the 1970s, the answer to this, it is going to deliver... Energy prices
:32:16. > :32:19.were quite cheap in East Germany. But how did that end? It's not a
:32:20. > :32:24.happy story. That is clearly where you are taking us. We want genuine,
:32:25. > :32:29.dynamic competition, break down the market walls. You can talk about
:32:30. > :32:35.that, but you are both guilty of driving up energy prices. Caroline
:32:36. > :32:38.has a fair point on transparency. Clearly, successive governments have
:32:39. > :32:43.not done enough, post-privatisation, to open up the market, particularly
:32:44. > :32:48.the way it consolidated under Labour. We will be coming forwards
:32:49. > :32:51.with new measures to open transparency so we can get to the
:32:52. > :32:57.bottom of this question... That does not heat the bedroom this winter for
:32:58. > :33:01.the people facing price rises. You are both in favour, you keep on
:33:02. > :33:06.agreeing to things that will drive up the price rises. ?100 billion in
:33:07. > :33:10.offshore wind, where the price of electricity will be three times the
:33:11. > :33:16.market rate. That is going on to bills. We are going to pay ?155 per
:33:17. > :33:23.megawatt. How much do you think onshore wind... It's twice the
:33:24. > :33:31.price. Onshore contributes ?9 to that. That is onshore, offshore, now
:33:32. > :33:34.you are about to agree with a nationalised French company to agree
:33:35. > :33:40.they will get twice the market rate of electricity price for 30 years.
:33:41. > :33:46.We need nuclear, we need investment. It goes on to our bill, correct? Of
:33:47. > :33:50.course, there is nobody else paying. We need nuclear, we need a
:33:51. > :33:55.diverse energy policy. We are going to hear more details about it. I do
:33:56. > :34:01.back nuclear power, I think it is important. The price, the market
:34:02. > :34:04.price, putting it onto the people watching this show? They will find
:34:05. > :34:07.out the details about that next week. The cost of the bill for
:34:08. > :34:13.developing renewables, it is about ?50 of the overall bill. We have
:34:14. > :34:19.seen price rises of ?300, ?400, ?120 from what British gas is saying
:34:20. > :34:23.today. In no way can they use that part of the bill to explain some of
:34:24. > :34:26.these price rises. We have to get to the heart of the issue. What is the
:34:27. > :34:30.true cost of energy? We can't do that in the market, the way it is
:34:31. > :34:36.set up at the moment. That is why our reforms are so important. I
:34:37. > :34:42.think we haven't seen anything yet. If this is the row we are having
:34:43. > :34:47.now, there is not a huge input of wind into the price, once you get
:34:48. > :34:51.the offshore wind rolling out, three times the wholesale price, once you
:34:52. > :34:58.get nuclear coming in, all of these renewables that are being given
:34:59. > :35:08.these huge rewards, then... The cost is going up and up. The cost of
:35:09. > :35:17.solar has fallen by 70%. Offshore wind is down from ?135. You can have
:35:18. > :35:22.your own opinions, but not your own facts. I just stated a fact. There
:35:23. > :35:27.is also the cost of staying where we are. If we stay hostage to fossil
:35:28. > :35:30.fuels, we will pay the price, not only in higher bills, but the loss
:35:31. > :35:35.of the jobs we can create with these new energies. It's not just me
:35:36. > :35:40.saying that, the climate change committee and former Conservative MP
:35:41. > :35:44.Sir John Gover. The world has changed since 2008, we have
:35:45. > :35:49.discovered shale gas all around the world. We know it is not going to
:35:50. > :35:58.run out anywhere soon as we thought. Fukushima, Olivia... We can't say
:35:59. > :36:02.that until we can find out if we can get it out of the ground in a way
:36:03. > :36:05.that is economic. Gas prices in the United States are one third of what
:36:06. > :36:14.they are here, because they have access to cheap gas. The idea behind
:36:15. > :36:19.renewables... Until 2003, we did not have a prevailing price for gas in
:36:20. > :36:22.the UK that was different to elsewhere in Europe. We want
:36:23. > :36:29.fracking, we are going to bring it in an environmentally entryway. But
:36:30. > :36:32.it is not a magic bullet. Would you agree, surely, that the whole idea
:36:33. > :36:36.behind renewables was that they were eventually going to look cheap
:36:37. > :36:41.compared to fossil fuels, because they will go up in price. They will.
:36:42. > :36:45.It is not going to turn out that way. You have a certain view, which
:36:46. > :36:51.is to deny climate change, so we know where you are coming from. You
:36:52. > :36:57.deny how important it is and how we have to take action to tackle it.
:36:58. > :37:01.Better not get on to climate change or people will have heart attacks.
:37:02. > :37:04.Thank you very much. The SNP leader Alex Sam and opens up the party
:37:05. > :37:08.conference in the beautiful city of Perth this afternoon. He insists
:37:09. > :37:12.that the referendum on independence can be won, despite polls suggesting
:37:13. > :37:15.that the no campaign is still well ahead. He thinks the key to victory
:37:16. > :37:20.is convincing voters that independence will bring economic
:37:21. > :37:23.prosperity. We are joined by the Deputy First Minister Nicola
:37:24. > :37:29.Sturgeon. We hear that the theme of the conference is going to be a big
:37:30. > :37:33.love in, and then next year it will be a big wake when you have lost the
:37:34. > :37:37.referendum? If we play our cards right and do our jobs properly, next
:37:38. > :37:42.year's conference will be a celebration of a yes vote and
:37:43. > :37:45.Scotland voting for independence. But that's getting ahead of
:37:46. > :37:51.ourselves, we have work to do to convince people that we can afford
:37:52. > :37:55.to be an independent country, we are one of the wealthiest countries in
:37:56. > :37:58.the world, even the no campaign does not question that now, but secondly
:37:59. > :38:02.that we should be independent because it means decisions being
:38:03. > :38:07.made here, not in Westminster by governments we often reject. When I
:38:08. > :38:10.last spoke to you, it was a year to the referendum, you were excited,
:38:11. > :38:14.the referendum would build up in your favour. You were the one that
:38:15. > :38:19.was very excited, I seem to remember. I am always excited to
:38:20. > :38:23.talk to you. But you were excited at the prospect that it was only a year
:38:24. > :38:27.to go, things would start to move your way. Actually, support for
:38:28. > :38:34.independence continues to flat line at about 25%. What is going to break
:38:35. > :38:38.that? What we see any opinion polls, and I am not denying that we have a
:38:39. > :38:42.challenge, we have got to convince people. I remember a few months
:38:43. > :38:47.before the SNP won an overall majority in the Scottish parliament
:38:48. > :38:52.the polls said we had no chance, we were 15 points behind Labour. If we
:38:53. > :38:55.pitched the argument properly, the polls can be overturned. The polls
:38:56. > :39:00.say that as people become more informed, when they feel they have
:39:01. > :39:04.the information to base their decision on, they are more likely to
:39:05. > :39:07.fall into the yes camp. Next month, there will be a White Paper on
:39:08. > :39:11.independence and that will be the platform for making and winning the
:39:12. > :39:15.argument that Scotland could be and can be an independent country. But,
:39:16. > :39:18.most importantly, that we should be an independent country because it
:39:19. > :39:21.means no longer having governments we do not vote for taking decisions
:39:22. > :39:24.we don't agree with. We have governments we vote for and they can
:39:25. > :39:30.take decisions in line with the priorities of people in Scotland.
:39:31. > :39:32.You gave the vote to 16 and 17-year-olds for this referendum,
:39:33. > :39:36.thinking younger people would be more nationalist and more in favour
:39:37. > :39:41.of independence. You surprised that turned out not to be the case? There
:39:42. > :39:44.was a mock referendum with 11,000 schoolchildren in part of the
:39:45. > :39:49.country that is very strongly nationalist and only 2000 voted for
:39:50. > :39:53.independence. Firstly, we extended the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds
:39:54. > :39:57.because it is the right thing to do. If you can get married, sign up for
:39:58. > :40:00.the Army at 16, I think you should have a boat, not just in a
:40:01. > :40:10.referendum but in general elections as well. -- vote. Young people, like
:40:11. > :40:14.the population at large, they want to have a referendum, they want to
:40:15. > :40:18.be persuaded. We have seen a number of debates, where once people hear
:40:19. > :40:24.the arguments they turn from being no or being undecided, to being yes.
:40:25. > :40:27.That is our challenge and opportunity. The publication of the
:40:28. > :40:31.Government White Paper next month takes us into a new phase in the
:40:32. > :40:34.campaign. We are very much looking forward to that. The referendum is
:40:35. > :40:39.there to be won and I look forward to campaigning hard to make sure we
:40:40. > :40:42.do win it. Is Alex Salmond going to take part in a live debate with the
:40:43. > :40:48.new Scottish Secretary, Alistair Carmichael? I am sure he will debate
:40:49. > :40:53.lots of people. And Alistair Darling? I am sure he will debate
:40:54. > :40:56.with lots of people between now and the referendum. What we have said
:40:57. > :41:04.and what I will say again today is that we think it is right and proper
:41:05. > :41:07.that there is a debate between the first Minister and the Prime
:41:08. > :41:11.Minister. He has a right to intervene into this debate and
:41:12. > :41:14.persuade people to vote no. But if he is going to do that, he has to be
:41:15. > :41:17.prepared to have a head-to-head debate with the first Minister. I
:41:18. > :41:22.look forward to him changing his mind on that. I wouldn't hold your
:41:23. > :41:26.breath. Are you going to get a major debate between Alistair Darling and
:41:27. > :41:31.Alex Salmond on television. Will that happen? Well, I have already
:41:32. > :41:35.debated with Alistair Darling. I know that, we have seen it. Alex
:41:36. > :41:39.Salmond will debate with lots of people... Will he debate with
:41:40. > :41:42.Alistair Darling on television? I am sure he will debate with all sorts
:41:43. > :41:46.of people. The first and foremost point here is that there should be
:41:47. > :41:49.the debate between the first Minister and the Prime Minister.
:41:50. > :41:54.What is the Prime Minister running scared of? What is Alex Salmond
:41:55. > :41:58.running scared of when you cannot say he will debate Alistair Darling?
:41:59. > :42:02.Alex Salmond wants to debate the Prime Minister. He wants to debate
:42:03. > :42:06.the Prime Minister. I think that is right and proper. This is a debate
:42:07. > :42:09.about a transfer of powers from Westminster to the Scottish
:42:10. > :42:13.Parliament. Surely it is right and proper that the leader of the
:42:14. > :42:21.Scottish Government... You have made that point. I am trying to get you
:42:22. > :42:24.to a address, that his Ford David Cameron to decide, I have no
:42:25. > :42:29.influence on that, there is no point repeating it. I am asking you, why
:42:30. > :42:35.can you not it Alex Salmon to debate with Alistair Carmichael, Alistair
:42:36. > :42:39.Darling or both? Does he just not like people called Alistair? I am
:42:40. > :42:41.sure that between now and the referendum Alex Salmond will debate
:42:42. > :42:48.with both of those people and many others, making the positive case for
:42:49. > :42:52.independence. There is no issue or question about that. The question is
:42:53. > :42:57.why David Cameron will not agreed to debate... Well, we have done that. I
:42:58. > :43:01.think we are going round in circles. We enjoy debating with people called
:43:02. > :43:06.Nicola. Thank you. Last night, Congress agreed to a deal which will
:43:07. > :43:10.see the debt ceiling rise, preventing it from going into a
:43:11. > :43:14.forced to default on debts, with the consequences that would entail, not
:43:15. > :43:21.just for America but the rest of the world. It also means parts of the
:43:22. > :43:24.government which have been shut down and get going again. Maybe some did
:43:25. > :43:28.not notice they have been shut down. That is another story. Here is
:43:29. > :43:32.what Barack Obama had to save the other night. Once this agreement
:43:33. > :43:36.arrives on my desk, I will sign it immediately. We will begin reopening
:43:37. > :43:40.our government immediately. You can begin to lift this cloud of
:43:41. > :43:44.uncertainty and unease from our businesses and from the American
:43:45. > :43:48.people. Because there is a lot of work ahead of us. Including our need
:43:49. > :43:51.to earn back the trust of the American people, that has been lost
:43:52. > :43:56.over the last few weeks. We can begin to do that by addressing the
:43:57. > :44:00.real issues that they care about. I have said it before, I will say it
:44:01. > :44:04.again. I am willing to work with anybody, I am eager to work with
:44:05. > :44:09.anybody, a crack or Republican, house or Senate members, or any idea
:44:10. > :44:14.that will grow our economy, create new jobs, strengthen the middle
:44:15. > :44:21.class and get our fiscal house in order, long-term. Joining us now is
:44:22. > :44:25.Ron Freeman, spokesperson for Democrats Abroad and the Republican
:44:26. > :44:30.commentator Charlie Wolf. Ron Freeman, are we going to go through
:44:31. > :44:37.is in again in the new year? Yes. So it is never ending? The time periods
:44:38. > :44:41.are getting shorter. When Clinton was president, we went six years
:44:42. > :44:46.without an increase, now we are down to three months. Is this a healthy
:44:47. > :44:50.way to run a country? Absolutely not. What do you think Charlie Wolf?
:44:51. > :44:56.Listening to President Obama, he likes to negotiate the same way that
:44:57. > :45:02.Henry Ford liked to offer cars - any colour you like as long as it is
:45:03. > :45:08.black. He has a legacy that will not last unless he learns to play with
:45:09. > :45:12.others. The Republicans control a branch of congress and they have the
:45:13. > :45:17.right to stand up for what they believe in and as long as President
:45:18. > :45:25.Obama has the my way of the highway approach that is not tegt. --
:45:26. > :45:31.negotiates. Warren Buffet said it is absurd to have this debt ceiling and
:45:32. > :45:35.you can't run a country where you country -- constantly have a debt
:45:36. > :45:41.ceiling. He is right isn't he? It is a stupid way to run a country? No, I
:45:42. > :45:46.want the Executive to have accountability to the people that
:45:47. > :45:51.pull the purse strings, if I was paying your credit card I would want
:45:52. > :45:57.to know there was a limit. OK. History goes the other way. The debt
:45:58. > :46:04.ceiling came into effect in the Spanish/American war in 1898.
:46:05. > :46:09.Because they had to issue sprayed bond issue t. The idea tow give the
:46:10. > :46:14.-- was to give the Treasury discretion as to how to finance the
:46:15. > :46:19.Government. It is only lately using it as a Republican tactic to force
:46:20. > :46:26.through their programme. It is not correct to say it makes the
:46:27. > :46:31.Executive accountable. They have the whip hand, not the president. Now,
:46:32. > :46:39.we have a spending problem that needs to be addressed and Mr Freeman
:46:40. > :46:45.said it has been kicked in the long Gass. We have -- grass. We have
:46:46. > :46:50.massive debt and we have a president spending like there is no tomorrow.
:46:51. > :46:54.He has cut the deficit after he ran it up to a billion. It is still
:46:55. > :46:59.uncontrolled and we have to have some way of watching our books and
:47:00. > :47:05.living within our means. You should have told that to President Bush who
:47:06. > :47:11.tubbed -- doubled the deficit. Are you not worried that there are
:47:12. > :47:16.people in your party that wanted the Government to not pay the debt. And
:47:17. > :47:23.they wants to bring the Government down. Not at all. You're not worried
:47:24. > :47:28.about that. They never said that and the Government was never going to
:47:29. > :47:42.come down. The tax receipts would have paid for is. It is a big
:47:43. > :47:47.Kaboookie, Japanese song and dance. It didn't have to happen. But we
:47:48. > :47:50.have a president who still acts like a community organiser and not a
:47:51. > :47:57.president. If he wants a legacy he will have to work with the
:47:58. > :48:08.Republican house. Where are you on Kabookie? Now, I know what one is.
:48:09. > :48:12.Isn't it the case by going for - Ba ma Care the Republicans were up
:48:13. > :48:15.against an impossible position in terms of winning the argue.
:48:16. > :48:23.President Obama was never going to back down. He won which five -- he
:48:24. > :48:29.won by five million votes in the election. President Obama got
:48:30. > :48:37.elected in 2008 in - you can agree or disagree with the policy, he was
:48:38. > :48:41.elected to implement it and then got re-elected to implement it. Why
:48:42. > :48:47.don't you accept the democratic decision of the American people and
:48:48. > :48:58.its judiciary? Because it is a bad law. But the people voted for it.
:48:59. > :49:05.They also voted for pro-Higgs -- prohibition. But it was implemented.
:49:06. > :49:13.To be fair, there is an ideological battle that we would like to get rid
:49:14. > :49:18.of o' Ba ma Care -- Obamacare. They are saying, why isn't the president
:49:19. > :49:23.and the congress held to the same standard as the rest and why
:49:24. > :49:27.companies get a one year waiver, but individuals don't and some people
:49:28. > :49:33.get subsidies. I think these were fair things to bring up. But the law
:49:34. > :49:40.is now the law and you lost the argument and it seem to be time
:49:41. > :49:44.tomorrow. But Mr Freeman, there are signs that the American economy is
:49:45. > :49:48.recovering. More than signs. Exactly. There are more than signs
:49:49. > :49:52.that the British economy is recovering as well. Indeed. There
:49:53. > :49:56.are signs that the emerging markets are getting their act together after
:49:57. > :50:02.the set back they had as a result of some statements from the Fed.
:50:03. > :50:06.Deficits are coming down. But debt hasn't. I can't think of a worse way
:50:07. > :50:10.of getting the recovery to get momentum than the way the United
:50:11. > :50:17.States is behaving. The United States of course is not a single
:50:18. > :50:24.entity. They have had difficulty holding the faction together. Those
:50:25. > :50:30.who don't like President Obama are a faction. It is a terrible situation,
:50:31. > :50:33.but it can't be fought over whether the Government is open or close.
:50:34. > :50:44.Charlie Wolf we will have you back in February, you will do it again.
:50:45. > :50:51.For the K a, boo -- Kabbookie dance. Why should we dump dollars, you're
:50:52. > :50:57.becoming a joke banana republic. Let's dump dollars and buy Chinese
:50:58. > :51:01.or Swiss francs. I think the United States economy is still the
:51:02. > :51:05.strongest on the planet. Not if you carry on like this. I would rather
:51:06. > :51:09.see that happening that we went through than going through a debt
:51:10. > :51:14.situation that is unsustainable and that is the problem. Or raise the
:51:15. > :51:20.taxes. Well that doesn't help either. We will have to leave it
:51:21. > :51:26.there. Thank you both. When is a secret not a secret? Well, lean in.
:51:27. > :51:29.Listen very carefully. This is a bit hush-hush. Because Whitehall is
:51:30. > :51:34.reviewing how to classify its classified documents. Agent Dilnot
:51:35. > :51:40.has been investigating. Someone once said that the man that can keep a
:51:41. > :51:43.secret is wise. But not half as wise as the man who has no secrets to
:51:44. > :51:49.keep. That is all right for an individual, but for governments it
:51:50. > :51:55.is impossible. They have to keep the secret as best they can, once they
:51:56. > :51:59.have decided what a secret is. And bureaucratically you have to decide
:52:00. > :52:07.you don't someone calmed Edward Snowdon -- calmed Edward Snowdon --
:52:08. > :52:16.xauled Edward Snowdon working for you. Since the Second World War our
:52:17. > :52:22.Government has used unclassified, secret and top secret and the thing
:52:23. > :52:28.is how much damage they could cause if they got into the wrong hands.
:52:29. > :52:33.The joke in the comedy was anything marked confidential pretty much
:52:34. > :52:37.everyone had seen. But culturally in Whitehall the opposite is true.
:52:38. > :52:41.Civil servants have been overcautious, marking things secret
:52:42. > :52:47.when they didn't need to be. That is high the Cabinet Office for the
:52:48. > :52:51.first time in 68 years is reclassifying documents. They're
:52:52. > :52:56.keeping secret and the ones that would endanger life and limb in the
:52:57. > :53:01.wrong hands. But they're making everything else, 90% of documents
:53:02. > :53:06.classified as official. This is to simplify for the digital age. To
:53:07. > :53:15.speed up the government bureaucracy and make government decision-making
:53:16. > :53:25.that bit quicker. What would Sir Humphrey say? Giles Dilnot there. At
:53:26. > :53:28.least he is saving power with the electricity there. Lord West has
:53:29. > :53:31.been the Royal Navy's First Sea Lord, as well as being the minister
:53:32. > :53:34.for security and counter-terrorism in the Gordon Brown government. So
:53:35. > :53:38.he's in a good position to discuss this with us. What do you make of
:53:39. > :53:43.this change? I think it makes sense. You have gone straight to my heart,
:53:44. > :53:49.some 30 years ago I was court martialed for losing something that
:53:50. > :53:53.was classified. So I pay attention. I think it makes sense and it is
:53:54. > :53:56.clear we have too much that is overclassified where you're working
:53:57. > :54:02.with a lot of things are secret, people think, I had better make this
:54:03. > :54:08.secret just in case and handling these documents on computers or
:54:09. > :54:12.sending them to someone else is complex and expensive. Did you find
:54:13. > :54:17.you only got people's attention when you put highly classify on the
:54:18. > :54:23.document? I have to say that I did discover and it is awful, because I
:54:24. > :54:28.have been a minister, if I want a minister to look at it I would make
:54:29. > :54:32.it code word. We have code word. And then they had to be indoctrinated
:54:33. > :54:37.into it and then you gave it to them, then they really wanted to see
:54:38. > :54:42.it. If you gave them that just confidential, which I know sound
:54:43. > :54:46.awful. I think it is time that this was done. And under the previous
:54:47. > :54:52.system most secret documents couldn't be sent electronically and
:54:53. > :54:58.now they will. Is that OK? Well you're to have, the ones that will
:54:59. > :55:05.still be secret, you have to have a system to allow that to happen. But
:55:06. > :55:11.so much was oversclass if Ied -- overclassified that can all be sent
:55:12. > :55:16.and you can use awful the shelf computers to send it. I think that
:55:17. > :55:22.is right. Where we have to careful is when we get to top secret and not
:55:23. > :55:27.do what the Americans have seen, where 4.2 million people within
:55:28. > :55:31.their structure had access to this data and we must make sure that
:55:32. > :55:36.doesn't happen. How could somebody be -- something be properly secret
:55:37. > :55:42.if millions of people have access to it. Among that there were secret
:55:43. > :55:46.things and I have to say why I think it is appalling that the Guardian
:55:47. > :55:50.said we can decide what should be seen and what shouldn't. That is
:55:51. > :55:55.dangerous and I Edward Snowdon I think he is a traitor and to see him
:55:56. > :56:00.in Russia getting awards and looking like an innocent choir boy, but he
:56:01. > :56:06.is not. That worries me. Everyone knows how open and transparn and
:56:07. > :56:10.democratic - transparent and democratic Russian society is. And
:56:11. > :56:15.they have been good at protecting secrets so we have had to build up
:56:16. > :56:21.agencies in the Cold War to get among them. Do you think we have too
:56:22. > :56:27.many secrets? No, I have never seen a secret document. I haven't been
:56:28. > :56:33.inducted into that level of importance. Clearly I think you're
:56:34. > :56:38.right that if there were too many dock ts -- document and too many
:56:39. > :56:45.people seeing them, the point is lost. So you have to simplify it.
:56:46. > :56:52.Are ewe sure -- are we sure our technology is good enough to keep it
:56:53. > :56:59.secret. I think your high grade crypto, which passes secret
:57:00. > :57:06.information, is very good. But it is like when we used to spot people in
:57:07. > :57:11.cybersecurity wreak -- breaking into our system and we would say isn't it
:57:12. > :57:16.awful. The ones that worried me were the ones that we didn't know about.
:57:17. > :57:25.The Germans in the Second World War thought their Cripps pose was --
:57:26. > :57:30.cryptowas rock solid. But it wassen. Do you miss getting the secret
:57:31. > :57:34.documents? I think whent I went to -- went to the other department and
:57:35. > :57:43.didn't have all this stuff that kept you right up to speed was a shock.
:57:44. > :57:47.But it is quite nice now. Thank you. Now let's find out the answer to our
:57:48. > :57:51.daily quiz. We asked what is Prince Charles' latest hobby horse. It is
:57:52. > :57:59.tall pointy buildings, or wind farms, pension funds, or the price
:58:00. > :58:05.of biscuits. The answer is... You won't get this - pension funds! Yes,
:58:06. > :58:10.I am not sure if he has a pension fund. Here is what he said in a
:58:11. > :58:14.recorded message to the conference of the National Association of
:58:15. > :58:17.Pension Funds. With an ageing population, and pension funds
:58:18. > :58:24.liabilities that are therefore stretching out for many decades,
:58:25. > :58:30.surely the current focus on quarterly capitalism is becoming
:58:31. > :58:38.unfit for purpose. So he has even talked about how quarterly reporting
:58:39. > :58:44.wasn't a good thing from the 19th to the 20th century. Maybe he should
:58:45. > :58:48.stand for Parliament. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The one
:58:49. > :58:52.o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. And I will be on BBC One
:58:53. > :58:54.tonight for This Week with Michael Portillo, Adam Boulton, Nicholas
:58:55. > :58:58.Parsons, Philip Collins and someone new on the sofa called Diane Abbott
:58:59. > :59:02.- never heard of her! And I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the
:59:03. > :59:03.big political stories of the day. Do join