:00:41. > :00:46.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Energy price hikes
:00:47. > :00:50.unleash a torrent of abuse on Twitter. But which political party
:00:51. > :00:55.is best taking advantage of the public's anger? Sometimes they are
:00:56. > :00:59.encouraging more of them to come here. Sometimes they are telling
:01:00. > :01:03.them to go home. What do politicians really want to do about
:01:04. > :01:06.immigration? Are you sitting comfortably? Plenty of MPs were at
:01:07. > :01:12.Prime Minister's Questions. But was it right that one pregnant minister
:01:13. > :01:16.was left standing? I think he is one of the few people old enough to be
:01:17. > :01:24.Prime Minister who can still talk to youth. Talk to you? Lavish praise
:01:25. > :01:28.from the Queen of romance for the last truly a wrist acrostic Prime
:01:29. > :01:36.Minister. We mark 50 years since Alec Douglas-Home emerged that I
:01:37. > :01:40.minister. -- as Prime Minister. All of that is coming up in the next
:01:41. > :01:44.hour. Public service broadcasting at its finest. Who better to engage the
:01:45. > :01:48.youthful viewers of this programme than Iain Martin of the Sunday
:01:49. > :01:53.Telegraph and Elizabeth Rigby of The Financial Times? They are with us
:01:54. > :01:57.for the duration. Welcome. Let's start with British Gas, everybody
:01:58. > :02:00.else is this week. The company PR team will be hoping for a quieter
:02:01. > :02:05.day after dealing with the fallout from yesterday's announcement of a
:02:06. > :02:09.10% increase in energy bills. Some bright spark at British Gas, SPARC,
:02:10. > :02:15.British Gas, get it? They thought it would be a good idea for the
:02:16. > :02:20.customer services director to take to Twitter to answer any concerns
:02:21. > :02:24.that customers might have. What could possibly go wrong? It is not
:02:25. > :02:27.like it is a disaster waiting to happen. Alan Gibbs took to Twitter
:02:28. > :03:02.to ask: Labour's press team are keen not to
:03:03. > :03:18.miss an opportunity on this team. What is also interesting, this is an
:03:19. > :03:22.issue that Labour, the price freezes, whatever the economic of
:03:23. > :03:26.it, it is clearly popular and they are way ahead on it. But all of the
:03:27. > :03:31.other polls do not show it is translating into a Labour lead over
:03:32. > :03:35.the Conservatives, in the general voting intention? No, the Tories
:03:36. > :03:41.would say the reason it does not translate is because, actually,
:03:42. > :03:46.voters are not silly and they realise this probably is an
:03:47. > :03:50.unworkable policy. You cannot just tell companies to freeze prices and
:03:51. > :03:53.think that there will not be a fallout in terms of maybe not
:03:54. > :04:01.investing in energy more, putting bills before the price freeze comes
:04:02. > :04:09.in. So, it is a kind of short-term political gamble, if you like. It is
:04:10. > :04:14.not yet playing into the polls. That said, clearly, the Tories are very
:04:15. > :04:17.worried about that. They are worried about it. At some stage, the
:04:18. > :04:20.coalition will need to come up with a more adequate response, because
:04:21. > :04:24.when you ask them now, Labour is going to freeze my bill, what are
:04:25. > :04:32.you going to do, you basically get a load of waffle. In narrow political
:04:33. > :04:36.terms, this has been very good for Ed Miliband. A month ago he was
:04:37. > :04:40.going into the conference season in some difficulty, the energy freeze,
:04:41. > :04:47.unworkable as it is as a policy, there are many questions marks about
:04:48. > :04:50.it, it has got him back in the game. The entire argument is phoney,
:04:51. > :04:57.really, from all three of the parties. In that globalisation was
:04:58. > :05:03.always going to push up demand and prices for gas and electricity.
:05:04. > :05:06.Laying green costs on top of that, and then they want to blame each
:05:07. > :05:11.other, they want to try to compete and persuade the public that energy
:05:12. > :05:15.prices... And they have postponed investment, successive governments.
:05:16. > :05:21.I'm not blaming one party or another. It is a slightly phoney
:05:22. > :05:26.argument, I think. When you look at the energy record of the last Labour
:05:27. > :05:32.government and this government, nobody comes out very well from it.
:05:33. > :05:38.But they cover that by turning the energy bosses into the new bankers?
:05:39. > :05:42.Absolutely. I think this is going to be the interesting story going
:05:43. > :05:45.forwards. Just as we have seen bankers levies, are we going to get
:05:46. > :05:52.into a situation where the energy bosses become demonised and the
:05:53. > :05:55.government talk about putting levies on energy companies? The problem the
:05:56. > :06:00.government have is that actually they need to have about ?110 billion
:06:01. > :06:05.investment into new power plants over the next generation to keep the
:06:06. > :06:10.lights on in the UK and to make us less dependent on international
:06:11. > :06:17.gas, to make us more energy-efficient and energy secure.
:06:18. > :06:22.So, they do not want to slam the energy companies too hard. Because
:06:23. > :06:31.that is where the energy is about to come from? But nothing they do at
:06:32. > :06:36.the moment makes a blind bit of difference. This deal they have done
:06:37. > :06:42.with the Chinese and the French, the Chinese are just ponying up some
:06:43. > :06:45.money. The French are involved in building plants in Finland and
:06:46. > :06:51.France, eight years late and twice over budget. Nothing that was
:06:52. > :06:55.decided in China will produce a single light bulb of electricity
:06:56. > :06:59.until 2030. You are absolutely right. Yet again, the argument is
:07:00. > :07:03.being conducted on a phoney basis. Also, the Tories have been rumbled,
:07:04. > :07:07.in that for the last few months they have been trying to run this line
:07:08. > :07:10.that they are going to be tough on green taxes. Actually, when you look
:07:11. > :07:17.into the detail, there is very little scope for movement. Well, the
:07:18. > :07:22.Lib Dems won't let them? Precisely. The Tories are trying to give the
:07:23. > :07:29.impression they are tough on green taxes, which they implemented. They
:07:30. > :07:34.voted for Ed Miliband's climate change policies? The irony of the
:07:35. > :07:38.new nuclear power station that is finally going to be built between
:07:39. > :07:42.the French EDF and the Chinese investor, the price that the
:07:43. > :07:46.government are guaranteeing on the energy coming out of that is twice
:07:47. > :07:54.the amount of current wholesale energy prices. It will be between
:07:55. > :07:58.?90 and ?93. They are locking consumers into paying for that.
:07:59. > :08:01.Whatever happens. They could be guaranteeing, we don't know the
:08:02. > :08:05.details, it is coming out on Monday, but that could be a three decade
:08:06. > :08:11.deal. That is really going to whack up prices. There could be a
:08:12. > :08:17.documentary in this. Thank you. It is time for the daily quiz. Which of
:08:18. > :08:21.these photographs is really of the Communities Secretary Eric Pickles?
:08:22. > :08:25.Pickles on the beach? Pickles giving a speech? Pickles going to a
:08:26. > :08:35.nursery? Pickles in the jungle? At the end of the show, they will
:08:36. > :08:43.give us the correct answer. You will, won't you? Iain will. 40,000
:08:44. > :08:46.texts, tweets and e-mails have been sent to immigrants that the
:08:47. > :08:50.government believes have overstayed their welcome in Britain, asking
:08:51. > :08:53.them to leave. It turns out, what a surprise, some of them went to the
:08:54. > :08:57.wrong people. And, of course, we don't know how many of the intended
:08:58. > :09:02.recipients were persuaded to return home. Politicians want to look tough
:09:03. > :09:05.on immigration, an issue behind only the economy in terms of importance
:09:06. > :09:10.to the public. But what do politicians really want to do about
:09:11. > :09:18.it? Sometimes, politicians want people
:09:19. > :09:22.to come. London was founded by pushy Italian immigrants called the
:09:23. > :09:25.Romans. Where would we be without them? Sometimes they want them to
:09:26. > :09:29.go. Sometimes they tell them to their face exactly what they think.
:09:30. > :09:32.I'm afraid he has no right to be in the United Kingdom and he should
:09:33. > :09:36.leave. But what do politicians really want to do about immigration?
:09:37. > :09:41.You could be forgiven for being a bit baffled about what governments
:09:42. > :09:46.of all types really think about what people... People that want to come
:09:47. > :09:52.and live in Britain. Why the mixed messages? Essentially, it is very
:09:53. > :09:55.difficult to be clear about immigration because, with the
:09:56. > :09:57.public, you are looking to talk to their concerns about immigration.
:09:58. > :10:04.With business, it is much more about the economic benefits. The messaging
:10:05. > :10:08.is very difficult. Given that businesses do not vote, politicians
:10:09. > :10:11.can be very keen to be on the right side of public opinion, or at least
:10:12. > :10:20.what they think is public opinion. I think on immigration, there is a
:10:21. > :10:25.sense that politicians, wrongly, think that the public are against
:10:26. > :10:29.immigration. That they have views that may be the views in some of the
:10:30. > :10:32.red tops, but are not actually shared by the public. There is a
:10:33. > :10:34.view amongst the public that politicians do not want to discuss
:10:35. > :10:41.the issue. Take those two things together, and you get a pretty
:10:42. > :10:47.difficult relationship. And yet, according to pollsters, voters are
:10:48. > :10:50.actually quite savvy about the kind of immigration politicians like and
:10:51. > :10:54.the kind that gives them a headache. They do differentiate between
:10:55. > :10:57.different kinds of migration. The high salaried, global, footloose
:10:58. > :11:01.business leaders are welcomed and people do see immigration as part of
:11:02. > :11:07.the progression of the economy, innovation. But, at the same time,
:11:08. > :11:13.economic migrants are seen to be really problematic. Do politicians
:11:14. > :11:19.have a bit more freedom to be frank about immigration than they think?
:11:20. > :11:25.In the run-up to the election, Chris Grayling, we had a fabulous public
:11:26. > :11:34.meeting. You know, we all said our bit. I think the public was
:11:35. > :11:37.impressed that there was a large degree of consensus amongst
:11:38. > :11:42.politicians about this issue and how to tackle it, including the problems
:11:43. > :11:47.that are caused in some communities who are disproportionately affected.
:11:48. > :11:50.So, maybe that public can handle the truth about immigration? The
:11:51. > :11:58.question is whether the politicians can handle telling it.
:11:59. > :12:02.We are joined by Atul Hatwal from pressure group Migration Matters and
:12:03. > :12:06.Conservative MP Mark Reckless. Who do you want to come here and who do
:12:07. > :12:10.you not want to come here? Well, I want to cut immigration, from the
:12:11. > :12:13.two wooden 50,000 a year to less than 100,000. We are more than
:12:14. > :12:19.halfway towards that goal. That is why constituents want to see it and
:12:20. > :12:22.I want to get the numbers down. Some benefit from immigration, they might
:12:23. > :12:27.get cheaper plumbers or cleaners. But most of my constituents are
:12:28. > :12:31.competing with this immigrant labour and they wanted reduced. You want to
:12:32. > :12:36.get the numbers down, even if there was a queue of people wanting to
:12:37. > :12:39.come to this country that were well-educated educated, wealthy,
:12:40. > :12:43.clearly going to be net contributors to the country, even if that was
:12:44. > :12:47.true, and I am not saying it is, but if it was you would still want the
:12:48. > :12:50.numbers to fall? There are schemes to allow people, and there are often
:12:51. > :12:54.quite small numbers in that category, to come. I welcome that.
:12:55. > :12:58.If you are a company and you want to bring somebody from overseas for
:12:59. > :13:01.your company here, you are allowed to do that pretty flexibly as long
:13:02. > :13:09.as they earn at least ?40,000 per year. I think that is flexible and a
:13:10. > :13:12.good imitation brought in. There is a loophole, where you are allowed to
:13:13. > :13:17.come in, largely with Indian IT companies, as long as you are here
:13:18. > :13:19.for less than six months. There is a succession of these people. They
:13:20. > :13:24.compete with domestic IT companies, who cannot compete with those labour
:13:25. > :13:29.rates, given their skills, they undercut them and there is downwards
:13:30. > :13:34.pressure on many IT people in my constituency who would like those
:13:35. > :13:37.jobs. It's making life tougher, it is cutting the wages of those of us
:13:38. > :13:42.that are already here. What would you say to that? We are getting
:13:43. > :13:45.muddled between cause and effect. I speak to employers every week. They
:13:46. > :13:48.are very clear, there would rather employ British citizens, who wore
:13:49. > :13:52.that are brought up here, because it is easier in terms of bureaucracy.
:13:53. > :13:56.What they say is that we have a really big skills problem in this
:13:57. > :14:03.country. Just last week, the OECD had England 24th out of 25 on the
:14:04. > :14:07.table. The choice is not between a British work and an immigrant, it is
:14:08. > :14:12.between delivering business or not. To bolster our recovery and move
:14:13. > :14:18.forwards, we need the employment. What would you say to that? Again,
:14:19. > :14:21.take an example, look at the horticulture industry. We have been
:14:22. > :14:25.bringing people from Romania and Bulgaria who are unfortunately able
:14:26. > :14:31.to come entirely legally from January. I think the government has
:14:32. > :14:34.made the right decision, rather than looking to the Ukraine and bringing
:14:35. > :14:38.in more people, to end that seasonal scheme and say to the farmers
:14:39. > :14:42.involved that they have to pay people more domestically to persuade
:14:43. > :14:45.people to do that work. Yes, the price of strawberries may be higher.
:14:46. > :14:50.But it means that people, domestically, get the chance of
:14:51. > :14:54.deployment. People have not done this domestic for generations. This
:14:55. > :14:58.is not a new thing. We always had migrant for seasonal farm work. If
:14:59. > :15:03.people are paid enough or doing something, you tend to find that
:15:04. > :15:07.people come forward. A Conservative Government wants to mandate the
:15:08. > :15:10.level of wages paid? They want to stop immigrant labour undercutting
:15:11. > :15:16.the domestic market. But they won't come for less than the minimum wage,
:15:17. > :15:20.that is illegal. But that law is not always enforced as much as we like.
:15:21. > :15:24.How many businesses has the government prosecuted for not paying
:15:25. > :15:27.the minimum wage? Only a small number, I'm afraid. I'm worried
:15:28. > :15:31.about the exemptions, people coming from EU countries, working for a
:15:32. > :15:34.period and it is not clear they are receiving that. That is not fair to
:15:35. > :15:37.my constituents. We should concentrate on skills and upping the
:15:38. > :15:41.domestic labour force to make sure there is a fair chance to get those
:15:42. > :15:45.jobs. There was a feeling under the last Labour Government, it might
:15:46. > :15:48.have been right or wrong, but it was widespread, that immigration was out
:15:49. > :15:53.of control. That numbers had become too big. It was impossible to absorb
:15:54. > :15:59.and there was a huge illegal side as well. On top of the genuine asylum
:16:00. > :16:02.seekers, on which we have a moral obligation to take, a lot of people
:16:03. > :16:05.were calling themselves asylum seekers and they were not. It was
:16:06. > :16:12.inevitable there would be a backlash? There is an issue about
:16:13. > :16:17.the pace and management of change, which is different to the issue of
:16:18. > :16:20.principle about immigration or not. The distribution of migrants in
:16:21. > :16:25.small communities, the pressure on local public services, that is a
:16:26. > :16:31.real is you. I think when it comes to illegal migration, more could be
:16:32. > :16:34.done earlier, and I think one of the things that is broadly welcomed and
:16:35. > :16:38.that the public welcome, actually, is to tackle illegal immigration
:16:39. > :16:43.helps detoxify the debate around legal migration. But it is important
:16:44. > :16:49.to say that, of the illegal migrants came Labour's term, from the access
:16:50. > :16:52.and countries, they have contributed more in taxes than they have used in
:16:53. > :16:57.public services, they have helped us drive forward growth, and our debt
:16:58. > :17:01.today would be worse if they had not come. Is that true? I do not really
:17:02. > :17:06.think it is, to the extent that people are coming in who are young
:17:07. > :17:09.and who did not initially have that age limit. There may be more
:17:10. > :17:14.pressures on schools from that group of people. As immigrants age, the
:17:15. > :17:18.costs will get greater, but they have felt down wages in my
:17:19. > :17:23.constituency, where otherwise there would be an opportunity to take
:17:24. > :17:26.those jobs. For someone with an economic background, that sounds
:17:27. > :17:31.logical - if you increase supply, the price will fall. The problem is
:17:32. > :17:34.when you look for the hard economic analysis of this, to get the
:17:35. > :17:40.evidence, it is quite hard to find the evidence that it is actually
:17:41. > :17:46.happened. Do you have studies that can show this? I cannot find them. I
:17:47. > :17:49.think since 2005, it is clear that we have seen a greater divergences
:17:50. > :17:54.in incomes. At the lower end, the less skilled end, the end that is
:17:55. > :17:58.competing with the people who came in under Labour, that is where wages
:17:59. > :18:01.have been held down, and immigration is certainly a factor in that, and
:18:02. > :18:05.my constituents would like to see less immigration and less pressure
:18:06. > :18:11.on public services, but also they have the opportunity to get jobs.
:18:12. > :18:16.But here is the rub. There are over 1 million people excluded from this
:18:17. > :18:20.country, but they are in this country, and they are what some
:18:21. > :18:26.people refer to as an underclass. They lack the skills and education
:18:27. > :18:30.to participate, and employers and government have found it easier to
:18:31. > :18:34.bring in young, motivated, educated people from abroad to take up the
:18:35. > :18:40.jobs, rather than do all the heavy lifting required to get these people
:18:41. > :18:44.out of an underclass situation into the labour force, productive members
:18:45. > :18:47.of the community. Maybe what the position be on migrating that 1
:18:48. > :18:58.million people to where they should be. Bare not mutually exclusive. In
:18:59. > :19:04.the short to medium term, we need to keep businesses operating, so people
:19:05. > :19:08.are needed. Is that the case when we have 2.5 million unemployed? That
:19:09. > :19:14.does not preclude action on skills. Employers say to me that when they
:19:15. > :19:18.advertise, big, small, medium, they go to colleges and schools, but when
:19:19. > :19:24.they need a lot of labour, it is difficult to get them in, and what
:19:25. > :19:29.action needs to be taken, that is... That is because it is easier to go
:19:30. > :19:33.to the Walsall labour market, people who are well educated, ready to come
:19:34. > :19:37.here, will quickly learn English, than to go into the worst part of
:19:38. > :19:41.our cities and rescue these people and give them the training and
:19:42. > :19:45.education necessary. That is much tougher, that is why you have even
:19:46. > :19:50.had one supermarket in Liverpool, surrounded by unemployment, going to
:19:51. > :19:53.Warsaw to get people, rather than trying to upgrade the people that
:19:54. > :20:00.live within a mile of the store. I think the flurry over summer with
:20:01. > :20:05.Next was quite instructive, because those companies are working with
:20:06. > :20:09.local schools and colleges, and they are trying to fill the jobs that we,
:20:10. > :20:13.but if the choice is between delivering the business or not, they
:20:14. > :20:16.have got to get people who are going to work. That does not preclude
:20:17. > :20:20.government taking much stronger action and making a public policy
:20:21. > :20:24.choice that more must be spent, more focus and priority given to
:20:25. > :20:29.training. Let me bring in our journalists. I would say that there
:20:30. > :20:33.is a sort of falls to bait on this, because actually, you know, the EEC
:20:34. > :20:38.put out figures this week saying that in terms of benefits and
:20:39. > :20:45.unemployment benefits, actually, migrants from the EU, it was less
:20:46. > :20:49.than 3%, it was 38,000, less than 38,000. I think what has happened in
:20:50. > :20:55.the public space is that we are having this debate that demonises
:20:56. > :20:58.migrants, instead of having a debate about what the benefits and cons,
:20:59. > :21:02.and I think we need to strip away the politics of it, and actually
:21:03. > :21:07.talk about the economics of it, because you know, you are talking
:21:08. > :21:10.about this idea that you stop migration and stop seasonal labour,
:21:11. > :21:14.but then if everyone puts up the price of carrots, strawberries,
:21:15. > :21:20.potatoes, then you are going to have a government in a cost of living
:21:21. > :21:26.crisis, pushing consumers Bill bills when they go to the supermarket. My
:21:27. > :21:29.constituents want to see immigration reduced, and if that means you pay a
:21:30. > :21:34.few more pence for your strawberries, my constituents get a
:21:35. > :21:39.better chance to access jobs, I think that is positive. It is not
:21:40. > :21:44.the unemployment benefit, it is often in work benefits, and as far
:21:45. > :21:47.as people from Romania or Bulgaria are concerned, we give generous in
:21:48. > :21:51.work benefits to families with children, and tens of thousands of
:21:52. > :21:56.people are sending back their child benefit to children resident in
:21:57. > :22:00.Poland. I want to put a stop to that. It is very difficult for the
:22:01. > :22:02.parties to deal with this subject, because there is a strand of opinion
:22:03. > :22:06.which believes that the matter what the mainstream parties say, they
:22:07. > :22:09.believe they have been lied to over the last 20 or 30 years about
:22:10. > :22:17.immigration. It is difficult for the mainstream parties to reach those
:22:18. > :22:19.people. UKIP are reaching them. I will be fascinated to see which of
:22:20. > :22:21.the mainstream parties is first to reach out to immigrants. I mean, we
:22:22. > :22:25.are talking about future immigration here, but we have gone through an
:22:26. > :22:30.enormous process of demographic and social change, and senior
:22:31. > :22:34.politicians in either of the main parties, how much time they spend
:22:35. > :22:40.studying who immigrants are, who have been here, staying here, making
:22:41. > :22:43.a contribution, what do they want, what other instincts? A large number
:22:44. > :22:48.of them might actually have Conservative instincts, they are
:22:49. > :22:53.people who work out. We need to move on. Very briefly, are you confident
:22:54. > :22:57.you will hit this target of getting that immigration under 100000 by
:22:58. > :23:03.2015? We are on track, it is difficult... I am worried about
:23:04. > :23:08.Bulgaria and Romania, I went out there, I think we want to discourage
:23:09. > :23:13.it as much as we can. By telling them how horrible it is here. We
:23:14. > :23:16.just have to hit that target, we said we would could immigration to
:23:17. > :23:22.tens of thousands to restore trust in politics, and we need to do
:23:23. > :23:27.everything we can to hit that. Now, the Government's controversial
:23:28. > :23:30.plans to replace 20,000 regular soldiers with 30,000 reservists has
:23:31. > :23:34.suffered a setback in the Commons. MPs voted in favour of a backbench
:23:35. > :23:36.motion urging ministers to delay the army shake-up until it has been
:23:37. > :23:44.shown that the plan is financially viable. A leaked MOD report has said
:23:45. > :23:47.that the army faces increased risk to its structure and operational
:23:48. > :23:50.capability and is recruiting just have the number of reservists it
:23:51. > :23:57.needs. This is a flavour of the debate.
:23:58. > :24:04.We have great difficulty, those of us that served and have seen our
:24:05. > :24:09.comrades in action, we have great difficulty in accepting change. I
:24:10. > :24:12.don't like it. I will fight tooth and nail to keep the Royal Regiment
:24:13. > :24:16.of Fusiliers and the other battalions. But sometimes we are
:24:17. > :24:23.going to have to accept that we can't. That is why people like me,
:24:24. > :24:28.and other honourable members, honourable and gallant members on
:24:29. > :24:35.all sides of the house, are fighting so hard for their local battalions
:24:36. > :24:39.and regiments. I actually think that the whole plan about the Army
:24:40. > :24:43.Reserve is a good plan. I know a great many serving reservists in my
:24:44. > :24:50.constituency who are both excited and infused about their role in a
:24:51. > :24:53.fully manned, 30,000 strong force which will ensure that they and
:24:54. > :24:59.other people in the future can really make their contribution to
:25:00. > :25:01.the British Army. The 2nd Battalion and the 1st Battalion, Royal
:25:02. > :25:06.Regiment of Fusiliers are very close to my heart, my dad having been a
:25:07. > :25:09.member of the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers during and before the
:25:10. > :25:13.Second World War. And I am just wondering what the ministry and what
:25:14. > :25:19.the ministers want out of our defence forces, because one of the
:25:20. > :25:22.battalions to be axed, the 2nd Battalion, Royal Regiment of
:25:23. > :25:26.Fusiliers, are known as daring in all, and wherever the Fusiliers have
:25:27. > :25:30.deployed, they have proved capable of meeting the challenge with
:25:31. > :25:36.courage, determination and the will to win. That is on the army website.
:25:37. > :25:40.It is true, there have been some issues in the process. It is too
:25:41. > :25:43.bureaucratic, as some of my honourable friend have pointed out.
:25:44. > :25:47.However, we are working with our recruiting partner and senior army
:25:48. > :25:51.leadership to actively address these issues, and I believe we can work
:25:52. > :25:57.through them, simplify the system and meet the objective. One is not
:25:58. > :26:02.saying, scrap the reservists plans. In many respects, one wants them to
:26:03. > :26:06.work. What one is saying is that there comes a point in any project
:26:07. > :26:10.where, if you have to keep throwing extra cost into a plan, because it
:26:11. > :26:14.is failing, because recruitment targets cannot be met, because costs
:26:15. > :26:18.are rising, because TA numbers are at a low ebb and there is
:26:19. > :26:22.disorganisation, when you throw more and more money into such a project,
:26:23. > :26:26.there comes a point when you have got to say, is this project is
:26:27. > :26:30.creating false economies? And therefore costing the taxpayer dear?
:26:31. > :26:38.Well, one asked the Ministry of Defence for an interview but one was
:26:39. > :26:44.told no-one was available! We can talk to Bob Stewart, a former army
:26:45. > :26:47.colonel, commander of the UN forces in Bosnia, he has changed his tie
:26:48. > :26:55.since yesterday, you have got more than one! For a surprise, the plan
:26:56. > :26:59.to hire a lot more surprises is not -- more reservists is not working.
:27:00. > :27:04.They are getting less than half the reservists they thought. We were
:27:05. > :27:08.guaranteed, Andrew, in 2011 by the then Defence Secretary in the House
:27:09. > :27:13.of Commons that regular battalions, regular units would not go until the
:27:14. > :27:18.viability and the cost effectiveness of the reserve plan was shown to be
:27:19. > :27:24.working. Neither of those things seem to be on target at the moment.
:27:25. > :27:28.But in the public domain, there is endless talk about military cuts,
:27:29. > :27:33.cuts to the army, the army being cut to its lowest numbers since the
:27:34. > :27:36.volume, sending out an image that this is a declining part of our
:27:37. > :27:39.society, so why would you be surprised that people do not want to
:27:40. > :27:45.join what is seen to be in decline to me I am not surprised, I am not
:27:46. > :27:49.surprised at all. I did not mean you personally, I meant the government.
:27:50. > :27:55.Well, the government may be a little surprised. We are going to get rid
:27:56. > :28:01.of four infantry battalions by the end of 2015. On the wildest, most
:28:02. > :28:07.generous estimate, these 30,000 reservists will not be available
:28:08. > :28:11.until 2018. That is a three-year gap, and all were asking us to say,
:28:12. > :28:15.look, the problem is this, we will keep these battalions until the plan
:28:16. > :28:18.proves to be worthwhile and cost-effective, and cost-effective
:28:19. > :28:22.as well, because it will work if you just keep checking money at it. If
:28:23. > :28:25.you keep throwing money at it, it will eventually work, but what about
:28:26. > :28:29.the cost effectiveness of its? Why do we have these people when it is
:28:30. > :28:32.cheaper to have regulars? But this is a government which is going to
:28:33. > :28:36.reside over a ten-year gap in the navy having no aircraft carriers,
:28:37. > :28:43.and it will have one with no planes. Why would you expect the army to
:28:44. > :28:46.have a gap between losing its regiments and getting the reservists
:28:47. > :28:51.in? This is par for the course, this is how defence policy is run these
:28:52. > :28:54.days. I am not quite as cynical as you, I think we will have aeroplanes
:28:55. > :29:00.on those aircraft carriers, they are working on it now. I agree, we will
:29:01. > :29:04.have a problem paying for them. We will have a problem manning it, we
:29:05. > :29:07.will have a problem, but we need those aircraft carriers. But we also
:29:08. > :29:11.need our infantry battalions to stay at least until the viability of the
:29:12. > :29:16.reserve plan is proven. What would you like the government to do? Stop
:29:17. > :29:21.those four battalions being scrapped by the end of next year, the cars
:29:22. > :29:24.that is one way of doing it. Just put them on hold, we are not saying
:29:25. > :29:28.it will not work, maybe it will, I hope it does in a way, but I do not
:29:29. > :29:34.want to see regular troops go, leaving us with a big capability gap
:29:35. > :29:38.between 2015 and 2018, when we have got enough problems in defence. We
:29:39. > :29:42.have not even got maritime air cover out to the area we are meant to
:29:43. > :29:47.cover in the North Atlantic, which is 1400 nautical miles. We can go
:29:48. > :29:50.out to 240 miles, we have to ask the French, the Portuguese and Spanish
:29:51. > :29:55.for aircraft. We scrapped the nimrods. I understand the logic for
:29:56. > :29:58.that, there is a big problem in defence, and on the other hand you
:29:59. > :30:02.would ask me, I will not put words in your mouth, which Buddhist killer
:30:03. > :30:07.hospitals would you like to start building? Which schools would you
:30:08. > :30:10.stop? It is an opportunity cost, but I am saying that it is not that
:30:11. > :30:14.much, too expensive to keep these battalions on until the plan is
:30:15. > :30:21.proven, which we were promised in the House of Commons by the then
:30:22. > :30:29.Defence Secretary, Liam Fox. If they hadn't spent ?4 million on nimrods
:30:30. > :30:34.that went straight to the knackers yards, they wouldn't have that
:30:35. > :30:39.problem. I agree. My brother is on my back practically every week about
:30:40. > :30:44.this fact. Accountant Hammond, also the Secretary of State for defence,
:30:45. > :30:48.is he listening to you? Of course. I am not trying to criticise Philip
:30:49. > :30:55.Hammond. He's not doing what you want him to do. I'm criticising the
:30:56. > :30:58.policy. He's got a problem. He inherited that plan. I don't agree
:30:59. > :31:02.with elements of it, but I understand the logic of why it has
:31:03. > :31:05.to happen. I would like us to buy something to replace the maritime
:31:06. > :31:09.patrol aircraft. I would actually like some more guarantees that we
:31:10. > :31:18.are going to be able to man and fly things off the aircraft carriers.
:31:19. > :31:26.Iain? I think he would be unwise to be blase about it. He's been blase
:31:27. > :31:29.since 2010 about scaling back Britain's defence capability. I
:31:30. > :31:32.think there is a large number of Tories that are very resentful about
:31:33. > :31:41.this and deeply worried. Actually, if you look at the numbers, take a
:31:42. > :31:45.huge group of Tory rebels to vote with Labour, if this would in some
:31:46. > :31:49.way, at some point in the next few months, be brought to the house then
:31:50. > :31:55.I think David Cameron, who has a history of miscalculating and not
:31:56. > :31:58.spotting potential rebellions, I think it is potentially significant.
:31:59. > :32:01.I agree with that. But I think part of the problem with this programme
:32:02. > :32:07.has been trying to get business to release people. You say this
:32:08. > :32:12.programme, you don't mean the Daily Politics? You mean the programme to
:32:13. > :32:16.allow employers to release people for enough time to get their
:32:17. > :32:21.reserves? Exactly. I think they could maybe get a spike in people if
:32:22. > :32:27.they could go back to the business groups and see if they can off in
:32:28. > :32:28.fairness to the Minister of defence, they are putting huge effort into
:32:29. > :32:39.that particular one. The vote yesterday, you were not
:32:40. > :32:43.forced to be there. 92, including labour and a lot of Tories, voted
:32:44. > :32:50.for the motion. Non-went against it. 92-0. It is a big feeling that
:32:51. > :32:53.we should do something about this. I think there is also a bigger issue
:32:54. > :32:59.in the defence budget. The kind of target is moving. Philip Hammond
:33:00. > :33:06.talked a lot about cyber security and making defence for cyber
:33:07. > :33:10.attacks. I think a lot more will have to be deployed to these kind of
:33:11. > :33:13.invisible programmes that we don't see in terms of Italians and
:33:14. > :33:15.soldiers. But Abe acre chunk of the budget in the next 20 years is going
:33:16. > :33:27.to move. -- battalions. A pleasure as always. You could
:33:28. > :33:31.always put someone from the Daily Politics into the reserve is is.
:33:32. > :33:36.Somebody from this programme could become a reservist. That could be
:33:37. > :33:40.positive. Have you seen our team? I've seen a couple. We are talking
:33:41. > :33:45.about the defence of the nation, I don't think you should be so
:33:46. > :33:51.cavalier. Well, maybe you could give some money to defence. Equalities
:33:52. > :33:55.Minister Jo Swinson is seven months pregnant, but at to stand through
:33:56. > :34:01.proceedings. Many people were outraged and the incident is
:34:02. > :34:04.becoming known as seatgate. She arrives slightly late and had to
:34:05. > :34:07.stand at the back of the chamber. If you look closely, the bottom
:34:08. > :34:13.left-hand corner of the screen, in these pictures. She is in the pink
:34:14. > :34:17.dress. You might think, why do we not zoom in and show you? Well, we
:34:18. > :34:22.are not allowed to zoom in, because we cannot tamper in any way with
:34:23. > :34:27.parliamentary footage. I promise you, she is there, standing. Later,
:34:28. > :34:30.she moves to stand on the steps. It is a moving story. That is where she
:34:31. > :34:42.remained for the rest of the session. Why it has become such a
:34:43. > :34:46.big story, why is that? I have been seven months pregnant twice, let me
:34:47. > :34:52.tell you, you want to sit down. I looked down and thought, is anybody
:34:53. > :34:56.going to give Jo a seat? I had the same thought. She tweeted me this
:34:57. > :35:01.morning and said she was happy to stand. I saw that. But I think the
:35:02. > :35:07.reason that it has kind of... Sort of blown up like this, it is another
:35:08. > :35:13.example of this slight element within politics, where women get a
:35:14. > :35:16.slight short shrift in the chamber. To me, it strikes of... I don't
:35:17. > :35:20.think everybody was collectively trying to be rude to her, but it is
:35:21. > :35:35.a lack of consideration or lack of awareness. I have a point on the
:35:36. > :35:39.tube, I always make a point to look around for a pregnant woman. But it
:35:40. > :35:44.is not a male-female thing, whether you are a man or woman, healthy and
:35:45. > :35:48.Rosalie Young, if you see a pregnant woman, a woman should give up her
:35:49. > :35:56.seat as much as a man? -- relatively young. Absolutely. I think women,
:35:57. > :36:01.once they have been pregnant, they are slightly more aware of it. But
:36:02. > :36:06.for Jo, it is bad enough being seven months pregnant and being on show
:36:07. > :36:10.all of the time, and then to have to be constantly in the news about
:36:11. > :36:17.being pregnant, it must be awful for her. I'm not surprised she wanted to
:36:18. > :36:21.kill the story. Many Tories were standing. Is the Tory party so
:36:22. > :36:28.bereft of gentlemen that not one could say hey, Jo, have a seat? I'm
:36:29. > :36:34.not sure that the Tory leadership is particularly down on women or does
:36:35. > :36:39.not notice them in the chamber. I think a lot of Tory MPs would tell
:36:40. > :36:45.you, when it comes to rudeness and ignoring people, the Tory leadership
:36:46. > :36:55.is an equal opportunities organisation. Rude to everyone? I
:36:56. > :37:00.remember when Cheryl Devon stood up to talk. She had a leopard-print
:37:01. > :37:05.shirt on. The backbenchers made growling noises. And then another
:37:06. > :37:09.MP, where they were having a conversation about whether her top
:37:10. > :37:13.was too low. Calm down, dear. There is implicit sexism in the chamber
:37:14. > :37:18.all the time. I'm not saying this is a sexist moment, but there is an
:37:19. > :37:22.issue. This was a basic failure of manners. She had to let it known
:37:23. > :37:28.that, just because she is seven months pregnant, she has not lost
:37:29. > :37:32.the ability to stand on her feet and that is quite sexist.
:37:33. > :37:40.That is not the case, but whether you are a man or a woman, it is
:37:41. > :37:45.polite to offer her a seat. We had a debate about this at work today. I
:37:46. > :37:51.found when I was pregnant that I did not want to ask people to get up for
:37:52. > :37:58.me. It's embarrassing. Of course, she is not going to, even though she
:37:59. > :38:04.could. Very well. It will be the debate all weekend. It is day two of
:38:05. > :38:09.the Scottish National party conference in Perth. They will hear
:38:10. > :38:13.from Alex Salmond. It is his last address to this particular national
:38:14. > :38:15.conference before next year's referendum on independence in
:38:16. > :38:19.September. This morning, Scotland Finance Minister John Swinney has
:38:20. > :38:25.been outlining his vision for the Scottish economy in an independent
:38:26. > :38:27.country. When people come to consider the independence question,
:38:28. > :38:31.they will understandably want to know about the prospects for the
:38:32. > :38:37.economy. We need to spell out the facts for the people. For the last
:38:38. > :38:40.five years, Scotland has had to face the challenges brought about by
:38:41. > :38:45.economic mismanagement of successive Westminster governments. Even before
:38:46. > :38:50.the financial crash, the UK has the third-largest structural budget
:38:51. > :38:54.deficit in the developed world. After five years of austerity, with
:38:55. > :38:58.another five years to come, the UK has not paid down the deficit and
:38:59. > :39:06.household incomes have fallen. The UK deficit is now ?121 billion. As
:39:07. > :39:09.part of the UK, every person in Scotland is paying the bill, paying
:39:10. > :39:15.the price for Westminster's mismanagement. When our opposition
:39:16. > :39:18.say that Scotland cannot afford to be independent because we might have
:39:19. > :39:25.to pay off some debts, let's remember who built up the debt.
:39:26. > :39:30.Let's remember how much of our oil wealth they squandered, running up
:39:31. > :39:36.that debt. Let's remember how much they are borrowing to pay off their
:39:37. > :39:40.debt. Let's remember that, if Scotland votes no, we will be
:39:41. > :39:47.saddled with UK debt, UK debt they have run out for many, many years to
:39:48. > :39:51.come. So, the Scots may know how to
:39:52. > :39:55.celebrate their Scottish identity, but what about the English? New
:39:56. > :39:59.polling out today from a think tank called British Future shows that
:40:00. > :40:05.only 40% of the snow that St George's Day is the 23rd of April.
:40:06. > :40:09.71% can name the date of the US Independence Day. That is despite
:40:10. > :40:16.the fact that 40% of people living in England feel more English and
:40:17. > :40:19.British. 61% want to see the flag of St George flown more widely across
:40:20. > :40:24.England. We asked some English people and one South African.
:40:25. > :40:35.Do you consider yourself to be British? Yes. What about English?
:40:36. > :40:38.Both. I think we should celebrate St George's Day as a public holiday. Do
:40:39. > :40:46.you think we celebrate being English? No, and when we do, we do
:40:47. > :40:51.the wrong thing, by going to the pub. Do you celebrate St George's
:40:52. > :40:58.Day? I go to the pub. Do you celebrate being English? St George's
:40:59. > :41:06.Day? Yes. Do you know when it is? I don't. We come together for sporting
:41:07. > :41:12.events, when needed. When do you consider yourself to be British? Not
:41:13. > :41:19.at all. I am proudly South African. But I do love London. It's a nice
:41:20. > :41:26.place. I used to work in the building industry, everybody
:41:27. > :41:31.celebrated St Patrick's Day. Irish people have a good knees up. People
:41:32. > :41:41.probably see the British, St George, the Cross flag, as something
:41:42. > :41:49.which is a bit scary. A bit English. Do you know when St George's Day is?
:41:50. > :41:57.No. Do you know when US Independence Day is? 4th of July. Obviously
:41:58. > :42:02.well-educated. We are joined now by Matthew Rhodes from British Future.
:42:03. > :42:07.Isn't part of the issue, the United Kingdom, in terms of size, is
:42:08. > :42:13.unbalanced. England is so much bigger than the other constituent
:42:14. > :42:16.parts, even bigger than all of them put together. So, when the English
:42:17. > :42:20.say they are English, they really mean they are British?
:42:21. > :42:24.Historically, I think Englishness and Britishness have been confused.
:42:25. > :42:28.When the Scots say they are Scottish, they say they are Scottish
:42:29. > :42:33.and British? I think they have been fused together for a long time. We
:42:34. > :42:40.are quite good in England as seeing England as being connected with
:42:41. > :42:44.sport. I was at the match the other week and you felt Englishness there,
:42:45. > :42:46.you felt proud to be endless. But I think we have been a 90 minute
:42:47. > :42:51.nation when it has come to Englishness. There has been a
:42:52. > :42:55.change, there is more Englishness in the stadium. If you look at England
:42:56. > :42:59.winning the World Cup in 1966, if you look around there and it is a
:43:00. > :43:06.sea of union flags. A sea of the British flag. You go now, and it is
:43:07. > :43:15.the St George 's Cross? That is right, the big change was Euro 96.
:43:16. > :43:19.The St George's Park was reclaimed as a benign and patriotic, open and
:43:20. > :43:26.inclusive symbol. I think it is interesting, what we found was that
:43:27. > :43:33.English should be celebrated more through St George's Day, being
:43:34. > :43:36.emphasised more, and the fact that if it was a bank holiday and would
:43:37. > :43:44.help. They just want another bank holiday! I think the politicians
:43:45. > :43:48.often found it difficult to talk about this. Ed Miliband had a crack
:43:49. > :43:53.last year and then went strangely quiet. That is why we want a
:43:54. > :43:57.festival of Englishness, not a conference or seminar. Lots of
:43:58. > :44:02.culture, lots of politics, musicians, authors, playwrights, a
:44:03. > :44:06.sports panel. It is really something to celebrate, to talk about
:44:07. > :44:09.celebrating being English rather than analysing it. Isn't it
:44:10. > :44:20.inevitable that the Scots, the Welsh, the Northern Irish, they will
:44:21. > :44:25.fight to preserve their identity. The English do not have to do that,
:44:26. > :44:29.they are 85% of Britain? Yes, and also, I quite liked the fact that we
:44:30. > :44:32.English people do not actually feel the need to celebrate being English.
:44:33. > :44:36.They welcome all of these people from all over the world into their
:44:37. > :44:43.country and they are relaxed about it. The problem with the whole Saint
:44:44. > :44:49.Georges flag is, historically, it has been a really negative symbol. I
:44:50. > :44:55.do agree that it is maybe good to reclaim that. But I'm very happy for
:44:56. > :44:59.Englishness to stay in the stadium. And just be British? Absolutely, it
:45:00. > :45:07.doesn't even occur to me, being English. As always, the Scots are to
:45:08. > :45:09.blame. Over the past 30 years at Billy Bragg or so, the Scots have
:45:10. > :45:16.thought of themselves as more Scottish. They don't sing the
:45:17. > :45:20.British national anthem, they sing the Scottish album. You would never
:45:21. > :45:23.see a union flag at a Scottish international match. You only see
:45:24. > :45:28.the St Andrews like. As the Scots have made them feel more Scottish
:45:29. > :45:31.and perhaps less British, we will find out by how much in a years
:45:32. > :45:36.time, naturally, the initial going to say, all right, I think we should
:45:37. > :45:41.be a bit more English? The Scots have been banging on about national
:45:42. > :45:45.identity for 40 years now. I was there any Euro 96, as a Scotland
:45:46. > :45:50.fan, when Gascoigne scored that regrettably brilliant goal. I was
:45:51. > :45:54.struck that day by seeing, the first time I have seen at Wembley, that
:45:55. > :45:58.many crosses of St George. At the time, I thought, this is bound to
:45:59. > :46:03.end up having a political manifestation of some sort. And it
:46:04. > :46:08.hasn't. I think the reason for that is, actually, you have to understand
:46:09. > :46:12.house attic Scottish society has been an Welsh society. England, in
:46:13. > :46:18.the last 20 or 30 years, has gone through a social demographic
:46:19. > :46:20.revolution. We were talking about immigration and it is really
:46:21. > :46:27.transforming England in ways we were only just beginning to understand.
:46:28. > :46:32.Scotland has stayed homogenous. Very few immigrants. Culturally, it is
:46:33. > :46:34.inward looking. Many of my countrymen would deny that. But
:46:35. > :46:38.England, I think the question of what is Englishness is still
:46:39. > :46:46.evolving at high speed and is very unclear. If the English want to feel
:46:47. > :46:50.more English, and I think they do for the reasons we have given,
:46:51. > :46:53.nothing wrong with that, it does make Britishness more of the
:46:54. > :46:59.umbrella concept, because you do not hear immigrants calling themselves
:47:00. > :47:03.English - they call themselves British, they are immigrants to
:47:04. > :47:08.Britain, because they themselves regard Britain as the catchall. That
:47:09. > :47:11.is right, I think that has historically been the case, and
:47:12. > :47:16.Britishness has been a very civic identity because it has always been
:47:17. > :47:20.multinational. But I think there is a rise of English self
:47:21. > :47:26.identification amongst ethnic minority groups... Really? Yes, I
:47:27. > :47:29.think in the polling we have done, about seven out of ten would in some
:47:30. > :47:34.ways described English to themselves, not as a primary
:47:35. > :47:39.identity, but it is there in the background. Interesting, a
:47:40. > :47:43.generational change. And there is life left in Team GB, Mo Farah and
:47:44. > :47:48.Chris Hoy on the same team. We had better leave it there, enjoy your
:47:49. > :47:53.festival. 50 years ago today the country was taken by surprise when
:47:54. > :47:57.Harold Macmillan resigned due to ill-health. The bigger shock was
:47:58. > :48:05.still to come when the Queen invited a Conservative peer, the 14th Earl
:48:06. > :48:11.of home, a Scottish aristocrats to form a government and become prime
:48:12. > :48:16.Minster. This is the days when the Prime Minister is a merged from a
:48:17. > :48:20.magic circle of grandees, there were no elections for leader. Sir Alec
:48:21. > :48:24.Douglas-Home, as you became once you announced his peerage, and he had
:48:25. > :48:29.won a by-election to become an MP, went on to serve for just under one
:48:30. > :48:36.year before Labour's Harold Wilson won the 1964 election, but won by
:48:37. > :48:40.only four seats, he just squeeze in. Douglas-Home was not cut out for the
:48:41. > :48:44.television age, indeed he seemed to belong to another age altogether, as
:48:45. > :48:49.Britain entered the swinging 60s. But he had his as Myra is, here is a
:48:50. > :48:56.Barbara Cartland, a Conservative activist. -- admirers. I rather
:48:57. > :49:00.flatter myself that I am rather clever, because when it came up, I
:49:01. > :49:05.said he was the only possible man. He had worked with my brother on the
:49:06. > :49:08.Imperial league, and I'd always had tremendous admiration for him.
:49:09. > :49:11.Secondly, he is one of the few people was old enough to Prime
:49:12. > :49:19.Minister who can still talk to you, and I do not mean beatniks, but the
:49:20. > :49:22.ordinary people, understanding, trying to understand politics. What
:49:23. > :49:28.people will do is talk in very grand words, you know, European unity, it
:49:29. > :49:31.means absolutely nothing to the ordinary housewife who wants to know
:49:32. > :49:36.what people are to go party is going to do for her. As you already know,
:49:37. > :49:40.I have been appointed Prime Minister by the Queen, and there are one or
:49:41. > :49:49.two things I would like to say to you at once. First, that my task is
:49:50. > :49:54.to serve the whole nation. Secondly, no-one need expect any stunts from
:49:55. > :49:58.me, merely playing straight talking. That was Alec
:49:59. > :50:02.Douglas-Home, his first television address from Downing Street. We are
:50:03. > :50:05.joined by the deputy editor of the Sunday Telegraph at the time,
:50:06. > :50:09.Peregrine Worsthorne, back in the BBC studios, exactly 50 years ago to
:50:10. > :50:14.the day he took part in a live Panorama programme on what was then
:50:15. > :50:21.the Tory leadership crisis. Welcome back to the studio. You have been
:50:22. > :50:24.out and -- in and out since, so let me ask you, when the Tory leadership
:50:25. > :50:29.battle began, it was clear that Harold Macmillan was stepping down,
:50:30. > :50:34.Alec Douglas-Home was not regarded as being on the list at the
:50:35. > :50:40.beginning, was he? No, no, he was a surprise. And I suppose we ought to
:50:41. > :50:47.have guessed, because he had had quite a successful party conference
:50:48. > :50:53.speech. Yes, the famous Blackpool party conference. The famous
:50:54. > :50:59.Blackpool conference just two days before he got the job. I remember
:51:00. > :51:03.Rab Butler looking very disconcerted, he was expecting to
:51:04. > :51:09.succeed himself, and it did cross my mind then, although it was difficult
:51:10. > :51:13.to believe that Alec Douglas-Home wanted to be Prime Minister and was
:51:14. > :51:21.going to try to have a go. But before that, as you rightly say, he
:51:22. > :51:24.had not been on the list at all. Is it right to say... Rab Butler was
:51:25. > :51:29.seen as the frontrunner, the apparent for a long time to Mr
:51:30. > :51:34.Macmillan. Is it right to say that, actually, Mr MacMillan did not want
:51:35. > :51:38.him and that was the opening for Alec Douglas-Home? I think one of
:51:39. > :51:43.the mysteries of British politics at that time was the degree to which
:51:44. > :51:48.Conservative Members of Parliament distrusted Rab Butler. It was partly
:51:49. > :51:54.because he had not served in the war, which was still a major
:51:55. > :52:01.Conservative class, there were certainly more Conservative MPs who
:52:02. > :52:08.supported Macmillan, and most of the front bench have suffered bad wounds
:52:09. > :52:16.in the First World War. Rab Butler had sat at home, and I think it was
:52:17. > :52:19.judged then that he was not a man of courage, decisiveness, and you would
:52:20. > :52:33.probably not make a good Prime Minister. I never thought he was
:52:34. > :52:38.held with that degree of passion. I think that remains and an unsaid
:52:39. > :52:45.question, and it cannot simply have been because he was not in the First
:52:46. > :52:52.World War. In any case, he did arise deep scepticism about his qualities.
:52:53. > :52:56.We are talking 1963, heading up to 1964, Britain is becoming a very
:52:57. > :53:00.different country, the 60s are beginning to come apace, all the
:53:01. > :53:07.changes that would imply, and here the Conservatives pick the 14th Earl
:53:08. > :53:12.of Home, who seems out of kilter with the times. The Tories will have
:53:13. > :53:18.been in power for 13 years by the time 19 624 comes around, Labour has
:53:19. > :53:23.chosen the grammar school boy, the Economist with a first from Oxford
:53:24. > :53:31.in Mr Wilson. And yet the Tories lose by only four seats, it is a
:53:32. > :53:37.remarkable result. That was the wisdom of the British people, to
:53:38. > :53:42.elect people from the class that were trained to be politicians from
:53:43. > :53:48.the word go. It was still a possibility, it isn't now, but you
:53:49. > :53:55.and I crossed swords on whether it should be. We have indeed, I have
:53:56. > :54:01.still got the scars! So I just think it is surprisingly Labour did not
:54:02. > :54:06.win by a lot more. Yes. I think Alec Douglas-Home must take a lot of
:54:07. > :54:10.credit. You knew him. Yes, journalists talk about knowing
:54:11. > :54:15.politicians, it is a very false claim, really, you know them for a
:54:16. > :54:22.particular reason, a limited reason, so I did not really know him in a
:54:23. > :54:26.proper way. Let me bring Iain in, Alec Douglas-Home emerged from this
:54:27. > :54:32.bizarre, almost like choosing a Pope, it was, because at least there
:54:33. > :54:37.is a vote among the Cardinals. Iain Macleod, in a famous article in the
:54:38. > :54:40.Spectator, described it as a magic circle of Tory grandees, nearly all
:54:41. > :54:45.of whom had gone to Eton and were related. It brought the end of this
:54:46. > :54:50.way of choosing a Tory leader, the next leader was elected. Guess, he
:54:51. > :54:55.was elected from a very different background, then Thatcher followed.
:54:56. > :54:58.I am reminded, though, that there are themes that run through this
:54:59. > :55:01.that still concern you in Conservative politics. Very often,
:55:02. > :55:05.when the Conservative Party is choosing a leader, it chooses a
:55:06. > :55:10.leader to stop somebody else. So they chose Alec Douglas-Home to stop
:55:11. > :55:17.Rab Butler, Heseltine has to be stopped, Clark, who was the natural
:55:18. > :55:23.Conservative leader, revive their fortunes never got to do it because
:55:24. > :55:35.the party wanted to stop him. I am too young to remember! Final word
:55:36. > :55:41.from you. If Macmillan at... I think Macmillan's government was very much
:55:42. > :55:47.of the old guard, and people like the newcomers, who were not part of
:55:48. > :55:54.that world, like Iain Macleod, to put up with Macmillan, if one of
:55:55. > :56:00.them had got chosen, I think that the system of giving the upper-class
:56:01. > :56:05.sort of priority as an advantage, because they had it in their bones
:56:06. > :56:11.to govern, which I think the present political setup greatly lacks.
:56:12. > :56:16.Politicians are not drawing on that. Cameron was not born to it?
:56:17. > :56:21.Cameron, I think, is a sort of exception. Cameron has to pretend
:56:22. > :56:25.not to be part of that world. He used to be, but he has to pretend
:56:26. > :56:29.not to be from the upper-class, if you like, but in the old days not to
:56:30. > :56:34.belong to that was a disadvantage. In any case, these are deep waters.
:56:35. > :56:38.And remember, Mr Wilson won by four seats, but the following day China
:56:39. > :56:44.detonated the bomb, and many people thought that if it had happened on
:56:45. > :56:47.election day, Alec Douglas-Home may well have won. Fascinating. If you
:56:48. > :56:51.want to see more about him becoming Prime Minister, BBC Parliament is
:56:52. > :56:54.running a special programme from eight o'clock tomorrow evening.
:56:55. > :56:58.These programmes are always great fun to watch. Back to this week and
:56:59. > :57:03.the rest of the political news in just 60 seconds.
:57:04. > :57:10.The Chancellor has been to China, where his big takeaway was
:57:11. > :57:15.investment in British nuclear power. Look who he bumped into, Boris,
:57:16. > :57:23.quoting literature. Who was Harry Potter's first girlfriend? What?
:57:24. > :57:28.That is right! A Chinese overseas student! Also travelling, Hillary
:57:29. > :57:32.Clinton was in London. She got the welcome given to many
:57:33. > :57:35.out-of-towners, a parking ticket. Maybe the US will be able to pay it
:57:36. > :57:40.after Congress finally voted to raise the country's debt ceiling,
:57:41. > :57:45.ending the government shutdown. Lasting much longer, plebgate, the
:57:46. > :57:50.police watchdog issued a report that was highly critical of some of the
:57:51. > :57:53.officers involved. Finally, a boardroom over the badger cull, a
:57:54. > :57:57.pilot programme in Gloucestershire admits its target for the number of
:57:58. > :58:02.critters killed by half, at least it is another excuse to play that clip
:58:03. > :58:09.of the environment Secretary. The badgers have moved the goalposts!
:58:10. > :58:16.Those cunning badgers, always moving the goalposts. Just time to find out
:58:17. > :58:21.the answer to the quiz, four pictures of the real Eric Pickles,
:58:22. > :58:28.what is going on in all the others? Elizabeth, you said you knew. I said
:58:29. > :58:37.Iain new! It is definitely on the beach. What is the right answer? The
:58:38. > :58:42.rest of them are cardboard cutouts, he has travelled the world with a
:58:43. > :58:46.student, a cardboard cutout. Eric Pickles, the real man, not the
:58:47. > :58:51.cardboard cutout, he will be my guest on Sunday politics this
:58:52. > :58:55.weekend. I hope you can join me on BBC One, Sunday morning. That is it
:58:56. > :58:58.for today, thank you to my guests, the one o'clock news is starting on
:58:59. > :59:01.BBC One. Join us next week, bye-bye!