:00:35. > :00:39.Good afternoon - welcome to The Daily Politics.
:00:40. > :00:42.?2 billion - that's how much foreign patients cost the NHS every year,
:00:43. > :00:46.says the Department of Health - but could we get some of that money back
:00:47. > :00:51.with a tougher approach to migrants and visitors?
:00:52. > :00:54.Nick Clegg thinks they need one, Michael Gove thinks they don't.
:00:55. > :01:01.Should teachers have to have a teaching qualification to teach?
:01:02. > :01:03.It's worth ?36 billion to the UK economy, but are our creative
:01:04. > :01:15.industries being undermined by illegal downloads? For goodness
:01:16. > :01:20.sake, what is the profession going to?
:01:21. > :01:30.And why do some people love to hate education secretaries?
:01:31. > :01:33.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is
:01:34. > :01:39.a former Education Secretary, Home Secretary, and Work and Pensions
:01:40. > :01:46.Secretary, David Blunkett. Is sounded young in those days!
:01:47. > :01:49.Let's start with Plebgate. You'll remember that a year ago, Andrew
:01:50. > :01:53.Mitchell - who was the Government Chief Whip at the time - was
:01:54. > :01:56.involved in an incident in Downing Street after police officers refused
:01:57. > :01:59.to allow him to ride his bicycle through the gates. Mr Mitchell
:02:00. > :02:02.admits swearing, but vehemently denies referring to police officers
:02:03. > :02:04.as "plebs." Andrew Mitchell later met members of the the Police
:02:05. > :02:09.Federation in his Sutton Coldfield constituency, in a meeting designed
:02:10. > :02:12.to clear the air. But three police officers emerged from that meeting
:02:13. > :02:16.to tell the press that Mr Mitchell had refused to elaborate on those
:02:17. > :02:20.events and repeated their call for him to resign. Well, last week -
:02:21. > :02:23.after hearing a recording of that meeting - the police watchdog
:02:24. > :02:26.accused those officers of giving a misleading account, and called on
:02:27. > :02:33.the officers involved to be disciplined. Yesterday, they issued
:02:34. > :02:36.this statement. "We acknowledge the investigation's criticism relating
:02:37. > :02:39.to our poor judgment in talking to the media following the meeting with
:02:40. > :02:56.Andrew Mitchell, for which we take this opportunity to apologise.
:02:57. > :03:05.Does that go far enough? Well, the apology would be much more realistic
:03:06. > :03:13.and plausible if they had apologised for deliberately or otherwise
:03:14. > :03:19.misleading the press that they're apologising, because they did go to
:03:20. > :03:23.that meeting and came out saying Mr Mitchell hadn't said things which he
:03:24. > :03:27.had said. He had been much clearer with them than they claimed. I think
:03:28. > :03:31.an apology on those grounds would at least have gone some way to sorting
:03:32. > :03:37.this out. My own view is he should never have been forced out in the
:03:38. > :03:41.first place. It was a storm in a teacup. It is the kind of thing
:03:42. > :03:47.against its own moment. All of this could have been resolved quickly. Do
:03:48. > :03:51.you think he should get his job back? I don't think he will get his
:03:52. > :03:56.job back but I would be surprised if he didn't get invited back into the
:03:57. > :04:04.Cabinet at the general election order the opposition front bench
:04:05. > :04:08.after the general election. Do you believe that David Davis, a friend
:04:09. > :04:19.of Mr Mitchell, is right when he says that actually the officers are
:04:20. > :04:25.guilty of a premeditated attack on Andrew Mitchell? Do you see it in
:04:26. > :04:29.those conspiratorial terms? Well, premeditated is pretty strong. It is
:04:30. > :04:34.clear they clearly had a position in their heads, they were in attack
:04:35. > :04:38.mode. I think whatever he said to them, they would come out and say
:04:39. > :04:43.something detrimental. I think that is fundamentally wrong. Police
:04:44. > :04:50.officers have to be able to make rational, balanced judgements. I
:04:51. > :04:55.think that is what undermined confidence on this particular
:04:56. > :04:59.issue. Whilst I am concerned about this and other high profile issues
:05:00. > :05:04.over the last 25 years, I do actually think we are more
:05:05. > :05:09.transparent in terms of policing, we are clearer about what we expect
:05:10. > :05:15.from them than we were 25 years ago. This won't help the trust issue
:05:16. > :05:19.though will it? People say, if this is what can happen with a high
:05:20. > :05:28.profile politician, what chance do we have? I understand that and we
:05:29. > :05:34.need to take whatever steps that are necessary. But until 30 years ago
:05:35. > :05:41.police officers didn't have to record interviews, there was a real
:05:42. > :05:46.suspicion not least in incidents like the West Midlands serious crime
:05:47. > :05:51.squad where massive abuse took place. So we need to get it into
:05:52. > :05:58.some sort of historic context, because, actually, day in, day out,,
:05:59. > :06:02.ordinary policemen and women are doing a good job.
:06:03. > :06:04.Now, it's time for our daily quiz. Who, according to Wales Online,
:06:05. > :06:07.sensationally resigned yesterday? Was it a) The Pope, b) David
:06:08. > :06:16.Cameron, c) Welsh rugby coach Warren Gatland, or d) the Prince of Wales?
:06:17. > :06:23.At the end of the show, David will give us the correct answer.
:06:24. > :06:27.The NHS could claw back more than half a billion pounds a year if it
:06:28. > :06:30.was better at charging foreign nationals for using the health
:06:31. > :06:32.service. That's the finding of a report which has been commissioned
:06:33. > :06:36.by the Health Secretary. Yes, Jeremy Hunt wants to get tough on so-called
:06:37. > :06:39.health tourists and toughen up the rules for foreigners who access the
:06:40. > :06:43.NHS. The study he commissioned says that the cost of migrants who are
:06:44. > :06:50.already in Britain, but not eligible for free treatment, is ?388 million.
:06:51. > :06:53.The report also says foreigners who visit simply to use the health
:06:54. > :06:59.service costs anywhere between ?70 million and ?300 million a year. As
:07:00. > :07:02.part of its Immigration Bill, the Government has already announced it
:07:03. > :07:09.plans to charge an annual levy of ?200 for non-EU migrants and ?150
:07:10. > :07:15.for foreign students. It's hoped that will raise about ?200 million
:07:16. > :07:18.each year. Joining me now is the Conservative MP Henry Smith, who
:07:19. > :07:21.introduced a Private Members' Bill last year to highlight the issue of
:07:22. > :07:32.health tourism, and Clare Gerada, who chairs the Royal College of GPs.
:07:33. > :07:35.Welcome to both of you. Clare do you accept the NHS loses this much money
:07:36. > :07:42.through the treatment of foreign patients? I think there certainly is
:07:43. > :07:47.some expenditure on people who are not entitled to NHS care,
:07:48. > :07:52.absolutely. But the figures are complicated. There are expats as
:07:53. > :07:55.well. It is not necessarily foreigners. People may have been
:07:56. > :08:01.born in this country, gone overseas to live, and come back here when
:08:02. > :08:04.they are older and frailer. You also have students, perfectly entitled to
:08:05. > :08:09.come here and steady and pay student fees, who are included. So clearly
:08:10. > :08:18.where there is absolute abuse of the system we need to get a grip, but we
:08:19. > :08:20.must make sure that if we do implement anything, that it is
:08:21. > :08:24.proportionate and it doesn't make the GPA border agent. Do you think
:08:25. > :08:30.it is proportionate to charge people what you say is very legitimate? I
:08:31. > :08:33.think it is legitimate to charge EU nationals who use the NHS under
:08:34. > :08:39.perfectly reasonable arrangements that exist across the whole of the
:08:40. > :08:47.EU. That could be anything from 600 to ?900 million that we could
:08:48. > :08:57.recoup, apparently. What is the factual evidence that that amount of
:08:58. > :09:00.money is being lost? As far as I understand, it all sounds anecdotal,
:09:01. > :09:21.and concrete figures are difficult to come by. That is the problem, we
:09:22. > :09:23.are not properly recording the treatments of foreign nationals on
:09:24. > :09:26.the NHS. The report suggests only 16% of treatments of European
:09:27. > :09:27.National is on the National Health Service is actually recovered. When
:09:28. > :09:30.I did Freedom of information requests last year to all NHS
:09:31. > :09:32.officers and the country, the estimates ranged from ?200 million
:09:33. > :09:37.to ?2 billion. If we were to recover three quarters of the costs we do
:09:38. > :09:41.currently, we would be able to employ an extra 4000 doctors. What
:09:42. > :09:46.do you say to her point that they don't want to be a Border Agency? It
:09:47. > :09:50.would be front-line staff who would have to be involved in checking the
:09:51. > :09:53.eligibility of patients that come to them from abroad, where they are
:09:54. > :10:02.from, and how much they would have to pay. I understand those concerns.
:10:03. > :10:07." the rest of the world do this already. If you go to France, Spain,
:10:08. > :10:12.the US, Australia, and you seek public health care, they will record
:10:13. > :10:18.your eligibility for that. Secondly, if they recover the costs, this will
:10:19. > :10:26.be less of a burden on the NHS, not more. It is not as easy as just
:10:27. > :10:30.saying their eligibility. We would have to look at their passport and
:10:31. > :10:33.how many times they were in and out of the country. If they were from
:10:34. > :10:37.the EU we would have to look for proof that they had been here for
:10:38. > :10:41.the record is it amount of time to get free health care in this
:10:42. > :10:48.country. So it is very complicated and it is not something I is a GP
:10:49. > :10:51.should be doing. I accept there are some groups who come here and fall
:10:52. > :10:57.ill and under reciprocal arrangements we can. How else would
:10:58. > :11:00.we get the money? Hospitals already get the money from road traffic
:11:01. > :11:06.accidents through insurance companies. They are setup to do
:11:07. > :11:14.that. But ask me as a GP or my receptionist to be quizzing a
:11:15. > :11:18.65-year-old about how long they are going to be a way, whether they are
:11:19. > :11:28.paying attention - that is not my job. That is not how it will
:11:29. > :11:34.operate. How would it work? It will work the same way it does in the
:11:35. > :11:37.rest of the European economic area. We are not properly recording the
:11:38. > :11:44.cost of treating foreign nationals. You have not and said how the money
:11:45. > :11:50.will come from a patient who comes into Clare's surgery and says where
:11:51. > :11:54.they are from - presumably they will have to be asked questions by
:11:55. > :11:58.somebody in the surgery, is that right? Well, if you open a bank
:11:59. > :12:03.account here as a foreign national you have to provide details. The
:12:04. > :12:07.rest of the Private practice does that all the time. The problem is
:12:08. > :12:14.not that we think we should be looking at it, that is legitimate.
:12:15. > :12:18.It is the implementation. It is making sure my prime responsibility
:12:19. > :12:23.is to the patients in front of me. Actually, hospitals may well be
:12:24. > :12:27.better placed to do some of this. It is also making sure we don't start
:12:28. > :12:32.assuming every foreign national is there to abuse our system. They are
:12:33. > :12:37.not. Is there an element of xenophobia, as Diane Abbott
:12:38. > :12:40.suggested? I think the biggest problem is expats, it is our
:12:41. > :12:46.mothers, fathers, aunts and uncles who come back. We are denigrating
:12:47. > :12:51.yet again immigrants who are more likely to be caring for us than
:12:52. > :12:55.abusing our health care system. I do think the charge of xenophobia is
:12:56. > :13:00.quite insulting. This is what the rest of the world does. If you are a
:13:01. > :13:05.Brit going abroad on business or holiday to Europe elsewhere, you are
:13:06. > :13:09.expected to carry your European health insurance card or have travel
:13:10. > :13:15.insurance when you travel abroad. This is what we do, it is what the
:13:16. > :13:20.rest of the world does, it is time the British taxpayer wasn't picking
:13:21. > :13:26.up this burden. David Blunkett, isn't it true - when I go to France,
:13:27. > :13:31.and I have been to a GP there, I paid ?25 to see the GP and for some
:13:32. > :13:38.antibiotics for my son. Shouldn't that happen here? Well, leave aside
:13:39. > :13:43.the fact that GPs don't exist in the rest of the world the same way they
:13:44. > :13:47.do here, the principle is unanswerable. Of course, we should
:13:48. > :13:51.do everything we can. Ten years ago I was into this as Home Secretary.
:13:52. > :13:55.The Department of Health were reluctant to come up with an
:13:56. > :14:00.estimate of figures then, just as we're arguing about the figures now.
:14:01. > :14:05.This was part of my desire to have a clean register of those entitled to
:14:06. > :14:10.work, entitled to public services, and, dare I mention it, the ID card
:14:11. > :14:16.idea, which would have made it very easy to know whether someone was at
:14:17. > :14:20.least practically in a position to access our public services. In the
:14:21. > :14:31.end, we need good administrative systems, and Clare is right, GPs on
:14:32. > :14:39.the whole registering people. What do you say to Andy who says the
:14:40. > :14:43.government has released headline grabbing figures based on incomplete
:14:44. > :14:47.data. A Labour MP has said we should not be arguing about the research,
:14:48. > :14:52.we should just be backing the principle, as you said. Well, I
:14:53. > :14:57.cannot disagree with that. I don't think Andy Burnham is wrong, it is
:14:58. > :15:03.headline grabbing on a day when we have yet another immigration Bill
:15:04. > :15:08.having its second reading in the House of Commons. This is what this
:15:09. > :15:12.is about, and I hope we can have an all-party approach to this, which
:15:13. > :15:16.is, yes, we need to get the money in because it is money that should be
:15:17. > :15:20.spent on patients in our communities through our health service. What do
:15:21. > :15:28.you say to that, that these are headline grabbing figures? Well, I
:15:29. > :15:31.think we should have an all-party approach to this. The vast majority
:15:32. > :15:35.of our electorate are telling us they want is to address this
:15:36. > :15:39.problem. I was delighted a Labour member was one of the co-sponsors of
:15:40. > :15:43.my Private Members' Bill on this issue last year. I think it is a
:15:44. > :15:51.case of fairness to patients and to the taxpayer. When budgets are
:15:52. > :15:55.tight, it is about whether the cost of care is increasing. We need to be
:15:56. > :15:59.as efficient with the budget as possible. If we can recover a figure
:16:00. > :16:05.of around half ?1 billion, I think that is worth pursuing. And think of
:16:06. > :16:13.what that would do in terms of recruitment of doctors.
:16:14. > :16:20.If you were putting a cheque into every one of the 10,000 GP
:16:21. > :16:25.practices, it would cost a vast amount of money. If it is about
:16:26. > :16:31.chasing all, if it is about debt collection, again, it may well cost
:16:32. > :16:35.a lot of money to collect. David Dunk it says you need those new
:16:36. > :16:44.administrative services. -- David Blunkett. We are there to treat and
:16:45. > :16:48.care for patients, not to ask them for their eligibility to health
:16:49. > :16:55.care. Can I move on to something. The go home vans which were driving
:16:56. > :16:59.around the inner London are is targeting illegal in the is. One
:17:00. > :17:05.Tory MP said they were proud of those fans but they will not go
:17:06. > :17:10.ahead. They failed. The evidence did not show that they made any
:17:11. > :17:14.difference to a sensible or rational approach to saying, if you are not
:17:15. > :17:22.entitled to be here, if you are not entitled to draw on a fix, then you
:17:23. > :17:32.should go home. What do you think? I think in theory it is a thing worth
:17:33. > :17:36.looking at. If you go into a shop there are notices saying if you
:17:37. > :17:41.shoplift you will be prosecuted. So there should be a sign saying if you
:17:42. > :17:49.are illegal, you will be deported. But those vans made people less
:17:50. > :17:53.willing to report people than more willing. As a citizen I am ashamed
:17:54. > :17:59.that we have fans like that which frightened people. I am ashamed that
:18:00. > :18:04.my tax payers money is used for that sort of advertising. Even the
:18:05. > :18:08.illegal immigrants? They are frightening vans. They are drug
:18:09. > :18:12.trade and I am sure there are better ways of addressing illegal
:18:13. > :18:16.immigrants. Well, they will not be around any more. Thank you.
:18:17. > :18:19.Now, President Hollande of France told President Obama last night that
:18:20. > :18:22.spying on millions of French telephone calls is not the behaviour
:18:23. > :18:25.of a friend and ally. Revelations that the US National
:18:26. > :18:28.Security Agency or NSA was eavesdropping on the communications
:18:29. > :18:31.of members of the public around the world were contained in documents
:18:32. > :18:38.leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden and published in the
:18:39. > :18:40.UK by the Guardian newspaper. But MPs here, including the Prime
:18:41. > :18:45.Minister, have criticised the Guardian, accusing them of
:18:46. > :18:47.compromising national security. The backbench Conservative MP Julian
:18:48. > :18:51.Smith, is holding a debate in parliament this afternoon. He's in
:18:52. > :18:59.central Lobby as is Julian Huppert who has defended the newspaper's
:19:00. > :19:06.right to publish. Welcome to both of you. Julian Smith, you say the
:19:07. > :19:09.Guardian has crossed the line between responsible journalism and
:19:10. > :19:14.seriously risking national security. Wide? I think there is a
:19:15. > :19:21.darker side to this whole story which has seen one Briton's leading
:19:22. > :19:27.newspapers sent highly controversial information, potentially including
:19:28. > :19:32.details of people who have protected us, has sent those documents
:19:33. > :19:37.overseas, stored in a way which is incredibly vulnerable to terrorist
:19:38. > :19:44.infiltration and really providing to the world and ability to find out
:19:45. > :19:48.the deepest detail of our intelligence operations. Julian
:19:49. > :19:52.Huppert, you can respond directly to that and the Prime Minister has said
:19:53. > :19:57.it has damaged our national security and it is a gift to the terrorists.
:19:58. > :20:01.I have not seen anything which was published which would be a gift to
:20:02. > :20:05.terrorists. They have not published names and details. They have raised
:20:06. > :20:09.an important public debate. I think it is important that people know not
:20:10. > :20:12.the details of what is being done, but that there is widespread
:20:13. > :20:17.surveillance so we can have a chance to think about what is that balance.
:20:18. > :20:20.We know GCHQ and others play a critical role. They have to do that
:20:21. > :20:25.with the consent of the British public. I will be asking later on
:20:26. > :20:32.for a debate in Parliament about this issue and what is OK and what
:20:33. > :20:37.is not. There is a public interest case because people did not realise
:20:38. > :20:43.the content of e-mails or private correspondence was being looked at.
:20:44. > :20:49.There is absolutely the need for responsible journalism in this area.
:20:50. > :20:54.The Guardian is revealing something we did not know. The Guardian
:20:55. > :20:59.overstepped the line. Why did they publish details of internal
:21:00. > :21:07.communications, showing the gay and lesbian clubs which GCHQ staff
:21:08. > :21:12.belong to is that why did they showed PowerPoint presentations and
:21:13. > :21:16.send those allegedly overseas? It is that question which needs answering.
:21:17. > :21:21.I accept the public interest and having a debate. I accept we should
:21:22. > :21:28.monitor our intelligence services. But the Guardian has gone beyond
:21:29. > :21:33.this. Do you think there is a case to answer that the Guardian has in a
:21:34. > :21:41.way done what it is accusing governments of doing and it has in a
:21:42. > :21:45.blanket way published secret files? The Guardian has chosen carefully
:21:46. > :21:52.what to publish and what not to. What about the information about
:21:53. > :21:58.GCHQ individuals? There is not much individual information. The Guardian
:21:59. > :22:01.was careful about that. Julian talked about the PowerPoint slides.
:22:02. > :22:05.That was the key information which let us know how much of this there
:22:06. > :22:12.was. If the Guardian had published things saying we have seen stuff but
:22:13. > :22:16.cannot tell you about it, people would be criticising them for that.
:22:17. > :22:21.There will be careful discussion about that. I know the Guardian has
:22:22. > :22:26.spoken lawyers about this. I have not seen anything, they have opened
:22:27. > :22:34.up the public debate which is essential. We have to make sure we
:22:35. > :22:41.can trust GCHQ and other agencies. This debate is helpful. Do you trust
:22:42. > :22:46.GCHQ? Not at the expense of national security. The Guardian has a major
:22:47. > :22:49.stain on it because it has crossed that bridge between responsible
:22:50. > :22:53.journalism and protect the lives of the families and the people who have
:22:54. > :22:57.protected us for many, many years and it is that I want to highlight
:22:58. > :23:02.in Parliament today. I understand why your concern didn't if they had
:23:03. > :23:07.published list of agents I would join you in that case but they did
:23:08. > :23:10.not do that. There are many politicians and people involved in
:23:11. > :23:15.intelligence agencies who think it does risk security. There will be
:23:16. > :23:18.people who think it is not worth doing anything which sacrifices our
:23:19. > :23:21.national security when having a debate about the balance between
:23:22. > :23:30.freedom, privacy and national security. I think the best way to
:23:31. > :23:34.strengthen National Security Agency to have an open discussion so that
:23:35. > :23:39.people are comfortable and they are doing the right things. It has been
:23:40. > :23:44.said that they need to get engaged and reassure the public. To define
:23:45. > :23:49.everything is top secret does not provide that security. President
:23:50. > :23:54.Hollande is very unhappy about this. He has expressed his deep
:23:55. > :23:59.disapproval to President Obama about the National Security Agency in the
:24:00. > :24:05.USA recorded 70 million French phone calls and one month. They said that
:24:06. > :24:12.as infringing the rights of French citizens. I have not challenge the
:24:13. > :24:18.Guardian to reveal information in a responsible way. What I do say is we
:24:19. > :24:23.stand here throughout the world with detailed information about GCHQ and
:24:24. > :24:27.our intelligence services in highly vulnerable storage, looked after by
:24:28. > :24:33.the Guardian's journalists. That is wrong and that wrong has to be
:24:34. > :24:38.righted. Thank you both of you. David Blunkett, should we worry
:24:39. > :24:44.about National is the two with the publication of these files? Yes, we
:24:45. > :24:47.should. The intelligence and Security committee has been given
:24:48. > :24:52.new powers. They have decided they will investigate and take a look and
:24:53. > :24:56.come back to us. That is really important that we do not rely on the
:24:57. > :25:03.Guardian or any other newspaper to actually protect us in terms of our
:25:04. > :25:08.freedoms being eroded. We would not have had that debate without it.
:25:09. > :25:11.Having a free press is really important but having national
:25:12. > :25:23.systems and processes to protect us from the closure -- disclosure of
:25:24. > :25:28.information which has been stolen, is a bad idea. We cannot have an
:25:29. > :25:33.individual editor who is acting irresponsibly. I think the editor of
:25:34. > :25:37.the Guardian has. He is being judge and jury. That is not the way the
:25:38. > :25:44.world can work. Incidentally, I love the French suggestion that everybody
:25:45. > :25:48.knows they are up to it as well. Everybody is up to it or that is the
:25:49. > :25:53.feeling that there is a double standard, if you like. On the issue
:25:54. > :25:59.of the press, there will be a fear that an attempt is being made by the
:26:00. > :26:04.press to silence these issues. That is why they have opened the debate.
:26:05. > :26:09.That is why this discussion which you have just had is very
:26:10. > :26:13.important. On the one hand, we do not want people stealing material
:26:14. > :26:16.and putting it out in the ether and undermining the very protection of
:26:17. > :26:22.our well-being. That is what the intelligence community is doing. On
:26:23. > :26:26.the other hand, actually suppressing things which we should legitimately
:26:27. > :26:30.know is going on. Not just the detail but the process. Do we want
:26:31. > :26:35.that in our democracy. I think we do but we need to carry people with us.
:26:36. > :26:38.Thank you. Now, Free Schools are a flagship
:26:39. > :26:42.part of the Government's education policy. These new institutions are
:26:43. > :26:45.free of local authority control, free not to follow the national
:26:46. > :26:48.curriculum, free to feed children what they want and free to hire
:26:49. > :26:52.teachers who don't have a teaching qualification. It was a surprise
:26:53. > :26:55.then that at the weekend the Deputy Prime Minister suggested that they
:26:56. > :26:58.shouldn't have some of these freedoms, and specifically that the
:26:59. > :27:02.Liberal Democrats wanted teachers at these schools to have Qualified
:27:03. > :27:04.Teacher Status. It's caused rather a rift within the coalition and
:27:05. > :27:11.yesterday afternoon the Business Secretary, Vince Cable, was asked to
:27:12. > :27:16.clarify the Lib Dem position. The original idea that we voted for, the
:27:17. > :27:20.assumption was they were properly qualified teachers and that seems to
:27:21. > :27:25.have changed. We are making it clear in the next Parliament, we want a
:27:26. > :27:29.proper commitment to train teachers. That is what it beggars emphasising
:27:30. > :27:32.and I totally support him. We're joined now by the deputy
:27:33. > :27:35.headmaster of the independent school, Brighton College, John
:27:36. > :27:39.Weeks. They also sponsor an academy in East London. And former education
:27:40. > :27:46.secretary, David Blunkett, is still here. John Weeks, first of all, are
:27:47. > :27:53.you worried by the comments from Nick Clegg about teacher training
:27:54. > :28:00.and the standard of school meals. I think I am worried about it, yes. We
:28:01. > :28:04.have got no objections to teachers who have a training qualification. I
:28:05. > :28:14.think there is a great worth and value in those qualifications that
:28:15. > :28:17.go on at university. Indeed, I have a qualification, a PGCE myself. I am
:28:18. > :28:20.worried that there is a call for them to be mandatory for all
:28:21. > :28:26.teachers. We have very successfully inducted a lot of unqualified
:28:27. > :28:30.teachers into both our schools in Brighton, the independent school in
:28:31. > :28:34.Brighton, and indeed up at the London Academy where over half of
:28:35. > :28:40.the 38 staff do not have an official teaching qualification. And yet,
:28:41. > :28:45.they teach very successfully, both here in Brighton and up in London.
:28:46. > :28:51.So, the comments by Nick Clegg, where does that leave you and your
:28:52. > :28:55.teachers? I think that needs to be looked at again. We have done a lot
:28:56. > :29:01.of research in Brighton and around the world about what are the most
:29:02. > :29:09.important factors in a really top education. And without exception,
:29:10. > :29:13.the country and institutions around the world -- the countries and
:29:14. > :29:17.institutions around the world which have the most successful education
:29:18. > :29:21.cultures, take the top 10% of graduates from their universities.
:29:22. > :29:25.We find here and in our recruitment both at the London Academy and in
:29:26. > :29:31.Brighton, we recruit those teachers who are the most highly qualified in
:29:32. > :29:34.their subjects. Just hold on one minute and get a response from David
:29:35. > :29:40.Luckett. Do you think it is important that teachers in schools
:29:41. > :29:46.in England should have qualified teacher status? Yes, I do. I am a
:29:47. > :29:49.qualified teacher. There is no contradiction between recruiting the
:29:50. > :29:54.best graduates in the country and then ensuring that they are trained.
:29:55. > :29:58.That is why I introduced those years ago Teach First, to get the
:29:59. > :30:03.graduates in and teach them on the job. We have teaching schools
:30:04. > :30:07.Alliance programmes now which teach youngsters in the school. But at the
:30:08. > :30:10.end of the day, knowing your subject is not enough. Being able to
:30:11. > :30:13.translate and transmit that information and engage young people
:30:14. > :30:18.and learning is what it is all about. Brighton College can do
:30:19. > :30:25.whatever they like, they are private school. The parents will hold them
:30:26. > :30:29.to account. I am not against having people working to train teachers,
:30:30. > :30:34.instruct does in particular areas, teaching assistants are commonplace.
:30:35. > :30:39.It is a question whether the clash should be supervised -- it is a
:30:40. > :30:44.question whether the clasps should be supervised by summer with
:30:45. > :30:50.pedagogic knowledge. Otherwise lets her brain surgeons from a technician
:30:51. > :30:54.who was pretty good at managing something entirely different.
:30:55. > :30:59.Although as John Weeks was saying, if these people are highly qualified
:31:00. > :31:09.in their subject, are very bright and have communication skills, do
:31:10. > :31:13.you need a specific qualification? I think top graduates can be brought
:31:14. > :31:19.in immediately and encouraged and supported to remain where that is
:31:20. > :31:22.appropriate. But in the end, I had teachers who knew their subject
:31:23. > :31:26.extremely well and were absolutely useless at being able to
:31:27. > :31:31.communicate. That is no good to any of us. What do you say to that?
:31:32. > :31:35.You've got to be able to handle the class and go through a process by
:31:36. > :31:45.which you are taught how to teach children. Yes, we have a
:31:46. > :31:52.comprehensive, thorough mentoring and support process, particularly
:31:53. > :31:54.through the first year, where all the new teachers have weekly
:31:55. > :31:57.meetings with the heads of department, they are observed, they
:31:58. > :32:04.have undergoing pupil questionnaires. Is that the same as
:32:05. > :32:08.having a qualification? Yes, Brighton College is an independent
:32:09. > :32:15.school where you are able to do that, but in terms of the three
:32:16. > :32:20.schools, do you think Nick Clegg is right, David Blunkett is right, they
:32:21. > :32:25.must have this qualified teacher status? I don't think so. I think
:32:26. > :32:32.the support we provide in Brighton is perfectly sufficient. We've taken
:32:33. > :32:39.graduates and also more experienced people from industry, we've got a
:32:40. > :32:42.nuclear physicist teaching us, an aid worker teaching in the geography
:32:43. > :32:50.department, and I do wonder whether, if they had to go through that extra
:32:51. > :32:56.year, would they have come into teaching at all? That would be a
:32:57. > :32:59.shame. It's a terrible thing that we should ask people to be qualified
:33:00. > :33:36.when we asked the rest of the world to do just that
:33:37. > :33:38.you understand people will worry and they may use that argument? I don't
:33:39. > :33:48.think so. There are many headmasters out there without qualifications who
:33:49. > :33:53.are perfectly successful. Over the last few years we have failed if you
:33:54. > :34:01.teachers on the probation, as many with qualifications as without. I
:34:02. > :34:06.don't see a qualification. It is simply whether they are a good
:34:07. > :34:10.teacher or not. Well, we do train teachers and their dropout very
:34:11. > :34:14.quickly after qualifying. We need to work out the career path so that
:34:15. > :34:20.young people coming in really do know that if they are going to get
:34:21. > :34:25.the necessary qualification and body of knowledge to teach that they
:34:26. > :34:30.actually stick with us. What about Labour's position on free school
:34:31. > :34:35.'s? Labour has been accused of changing its mind. Tristram Hunt has
:34:36. > :34:40.had to come in and retract from his comments that free schools were just
:34:41. > :34:46.for yummy mummies. Now, he is all for them as long as there is need.
:34:47. > :34:49.Where is Labour on free schools? I'm undertaking a review with Ed
:34:50. > :34:59.Miliband and Tristram Hunt on the way to go forwards. I will report on
:35:00. > :35:08.that next year. Just answer your question, 13 years ago, there was a
:35:09. > :35:12.parent led school in Dulwich where there was a shortage of secondary
:35:13. > :35:16.places. Parents wanted to be involved and I saw nothing wrong
:35:17. > :35:23.with that. That is what Tristram Hunt said. I think we can square
:35:24. > :35:27.this circle, we just need a bit of common sense. Pupils have an
:35:28. > :35:31.entitlement. That entitlement should apply whichever status of school,
:35:32. > :35:35.which aired the area you live in. That should be about the best
:35:36. > :35:40.possible teaching in the classroom and the best leadership in the
:35:41. > :35:44.school, and people who are held to account. If you can square that
:35:45. > :35:49.circle, we will get back contract, rather than believing free schools
:35:50. > :35:54.are ideological and the end of the game. Actually, the status and
:35:55. > :35:58.structure of schools is all about the standards and delivering to the
:35:59. > :36:06.pupils. Just a reminder, three schools are in England only. -- free
:36:07. > :36:10.schools. So, Britain is getting a new nuclear
:36:11. > :36:13.power station, but it won't be British owned or designed, so should
:36:14. > :36:16.we be concerned about the state of our engineering sector? According to
:36:17. > :36:20.the Institution of Engineering and Technology, we should be - they say
:36:21. > :36:23.there is a skills crisis in the sector and are also concerned by the
:36:24. > :36:27.lack of female engineers. Currently just 7% of engineers are female. So
:36:28. > :36:30.how can we encourage more girls to consider engineering as a career?
:36:31. > :36:36.Here are the views of some students in Sheffield. I like
:36:37. > :36:40.problem-solving, which is what engineering is about. I thought
:36:41. > :36:45.engineering was about cars and lifts. But we do code breaking here.
:36:46. > :36:52.I really like that. Everyone was saying it was for boys but I wanted
:36:53. > :36:58.to see what it was about. On TV, you watch programmes and it is always
:36:59. > :37:01.boys. I think the key is information. I think a lot of people
:37:02. > :37:07.push other occupations forward more than others. I think if there were
:37:08. > :37:10.more successful role models in engineering, people would look up to
:37:11. > :37:14.it. It would be something to aspire to.
:37:15. > :37:18.I'm joined now by Roma Agrawal, a structural engineer who worked on
:37:19. > :37:20.the Shard, and Peter Luff MP, who is campaigning for more action to
:37:21. > :37:27.encourage young people in to engineering and science. What
:37:28. > :37:32.attracted you to engineering? It's such a fun profession. It is
:37:33. > :37:36.creative, collaborative. I love making things. It probably started
:37:37. > :37:41.with my love of putting Lego together as a young child. Making
:37:42. > :37:50.that leap to building the Shard is something we need to make. I would
:37:51. > :37:53.love to think my children could become engineers. Did you realise
:37:54. > :37:58.you were going into a profession where there were hardly any women? I
:37:59. > :38:00.actually studied physics and switched to engineering and
:38:01. > :38:07.afterwards when I became more aware of it. It never bothered me there
:38:08. > :38:14.were not many women. Why don't we have more women like Roma in
:38:15. > :38:18.engineering? Well, firstly, it is important to recognise we need more
:38:19. > :38:26.engineers. But we certainly need more women. The evidence is, a lot
:38:27. > :38:32.of gender at -- stereotyping takes place at school. Coeducational
:38:33. > :38:38.schools in particular do not have more girls doing physics. Whether a
:38:39. > :38:44.lot of girls in your class doing physics? I was in a year of 120
:38:45. > :38:48.girls, it was a girls school. There were 14 of us doing physics. I'm
:38:49. > :38:53.pleased to say I went back recently and that has now doubled to 30, so
:38:54. > :38:58.that things seem to be looking up. There clearly are not enough girls
:38:59. > :39:02.studying physics. I wonder if it is difficult to connect where physics
:39:03. > :39:08.will lead you. Is that not the industry 's fault? Don't they need
:39:09. > :39:13.to do a bit more in terms of sending people like Roma out to say, look at
:39:14. > :39:19.me. I do a job in engineering, and I am just like you. You are right.
:39:20. > :39:24.Engineering UK is bringing together a complex package of schemes, that
:39:25. > :39:29.they are not doing enough to say, this is an exciting career. I think
:39:30. > :39:33.girls need to be reached at primary school and told what a great career
:39:34. > :39:37.it is. Because it is a good job. Particularly when we just come
:39:38. > :39:43.through a recession, if you are a graduate trying to get into media,
:39:44. > :39:48.you might find it easier to get into engineering, if you'd chosen that
:39:49. > :39:54.career path. Yes, I think people with logical minds who are good at
:39:55. > :39:57.problem-solving are in high demand in any profession. So engineering
:39:58. > :40:02.graduates are snapped up by other professions as well. Do you think
:40:03. > :40:07.Labour missed this? We know now there is a shortage of engineers. We
:40:08. > :40:11.have a great heritage of engineering and not enough was done to push it
:40:12. > :40:17.as a subject, particularly for women? Well, there were a number of
:40:18. > :40:24.schools which chose engineering as a specialism. That then eroded. That's
:40:25. > :40:28.the problem with the education system, we go in waves. And the
:40:29. > :40:49.three of us are in total agreement on this, it's nice for once. Physics
:40:50. > :40:58.is a good route to engineering. The University of technology, I'm fully
:40:59. > :41:03.in favour of them. So there are a number of routes there. I got this a
:41:04. > :41:07.long time ago. My then wife, when we were camping with our small
:41:08. > :41:11.children, used to open the back of the car and play at very high
:41:12. > :41:21.volume, Monica wants to be an engineer it. I think they were
:41:22. > :41:26.getting the message. As Roma says, engineering is fun and we need to
:41:27. > :41:31.get industry into schools, using the new design and technology curriculum
:41:32. > :41:38.to say, hey, you can use these skills. What skills do women bring
:41:39. > :41:47.to engineering? More creativity, more team work. Females tend to be
:41:48. > :41:52.better at that. We need more women in engineering for the engineering
:41:53. > :41:58.companies. What about mentors, that is the problem, isn't it? Mentors at
:41:59. > :42:03.all levels. A lot of women going to engineering companies and don't go
:42:04. > :42:06.on. They find it too much of a male environment. We need ambassadors
:42:07. > :42:15.going into primary schools and saying, you can do this. There is a
:42:16. > :42:20.centre at the University of Sheffield working with Boeing. I've
:42:21. > :42:24.met the people on apprenticeships and they are not entirely male but
:42:25. > :42:29.they are largely, so we need to work on that. That is going back to the
:42:30. > :42:34.issue of schools. Why are girls giving up sciences so early on? Is
:42:35. > :42:38.it because they are so difficult? Girls can handle that, can't they?
:42:39. > :42:46.Yes, and I think one thing that is being brought to write is we are
:42:47. > :42:50.trying to show girls that studying physics and maths can lead to this.
:42:51. > :42:54.We've had 14-year-olds and 17-year-olds coming to our office
:42:55. > :42:58.this year and hopefully open their eyes to the whole world of
:42:59. > :43:05.possibilities with a physics GCSE or A-level. It is getting better. About
:43:06. > :43:13.as many girls took GCSE physics as boys. The key now is to get them
:43:14. > :43:17.taking A-levels as well. You are no longer up to your elbows in oil as
:43:18. > :43:23.an engineer. The world has completely transformed. Yes, we
:43:24. > :43:28.spend a lot of time with architects and sketches, saying, how are we
:43:29. > :43:33.going to make a building stand up, for example. It is very
:43:34. > :43:41.collaborative and creative. It is an exciting profession. The image of
:43:42. > :43:49.engineering is out of date. If you want to make a life-saving device,
:43:50. > :43:56.you need an engineering education. So the idea of being a geek, is that
:43:57. > :44:00.wrong? It is a stereotype. I'm an engineer. You don't look like a
:44:01. > :44:07.geek! That's the sort of thing we need to do. Have you got a benchmark
:44:08. > :44:13.the need to reach? Physics is the fourth most popular subject the boys
:44:14. > :44:17.and 19th girls. I would like to see more girls taking it at A-level.
:44:18. > :44:23.Then they can decide what to do. How many women engineers do you think we
:44:24. > :44:33.need? We are 7% at present. France has 22%. We should be up 50%. It can
:44:34. > :44:37.be done. I've seen it. Do you think Michael Gove values engineering in
:44:38. > :44:43.the way it should be valued? I think it is encouraging. There has been a
:44:44. > :44:48.review on engineering skills which is being published in two weeks'
:44:49. > :44:54.time. But we cannot let this go, it's got to be achieved. There is a
:44:55. > :44:58.lot to do, but I'm very optimistic. A third of our graduate intake last
:44:59. > :45:05.year was female, so things are looking up. Thank you both very
:45:06. > :45:10.much. Now one of the UK's success stories
:45:11. > :45:12.is our creative industries. Our film, television, publishing and
:45:13. > :45:16.design companies create over one and half million jobs and bring in ?36
:45:17. > :45:19.billion pounds a year. But despite this they are vulnerable to piracy
:45:20. > :45:24.and lose millions of pounds annually. The recent Emmy success of
:45:25. > :45:27.Breaking Bad was partly owed to the illegal download and a recent OFCOM
:45:28. > :45:31.report said that almost a quarter of all downloads in the UK are of
:45:32. > :45:35.pirated content. Well, Pete Wishart thinks it's time that something
:45:36. > :45:53.should be done about it. This is his soapbox.
:45:54. > :46:04.That is me with the Scottish band Runrig performing on Top Of The
:46:05. > :46:10.Pops. Our industries are protected and properly rewarded for the
:46:11. > :46:14.fantastic work they produce. Being creative is something we do very,
:46:15. > :46:19.very well. Whether it is film, music, publishing or design, the UK
:46:20. > :46:23.is in the top three of practically every cultural sector. 1.5 million
:46:24. > :46:27.people work within the creative industries and that generates
:46:28. > :46:32.something like ?35 billion to the economy. For all the success, these
:46:33. > :46:37.remain particularly fragile industries, that is because of the
:46:38. > :46:41.online changing digital environment where standing still for even one
:46:42. > :46:47.minute is not an option. Intellectual and property rights
:46:48. > :46:52.underpins the success and ensures the artist, creator and inventor are
:46:53. > :46:55.properly rewarded for the work they produce. But sometimes intellectual
:46:56. > :47:01.property rights are seen as a problem, something which is not
:47:02. > :47:05.respected, particularly in the online environment. If I walked into
:47:06. > :47:11.a hardware store and helped myself to the goods on offer I would be
:47:12. > :47:17.arrested, charged and convicted. But for some reason it seems to be
:47:18. > :47:24.okayed to take the rights of work online for nothing. This risks
:47:25. > :47:29.investment and jobs. We have got to start to get it through to people
:47:30. > :47:33.that taking something for nothing online is the same as taking
:47:34. > :47:38.something for nothing on the high Street. The IP rights are important
:47:39. > :47:40.property rights which protect the artist and creator and ensure they
:47:41. > :47:46.are rewarded for the works they produce. In the last Parliament, all
:47:47. > :47:52.parties agreed the Digital economy act and now is the time to get it
:47:53. > :47:57.into law, to ensure we can educate the public about illegal downloading
:47:58. > :48:04.and piracy. We have perhaps lost a generation to illegal downloading.
:48:05. > :48:11.We cannot afford to lose another. And Pete Wishart joins us now. We
:48:12. > :48:15.are hoping to be joined by the Labour MP Tom Watson who is in
:48:16. > :48:20.Birmingham. Apparently we can talk to him in a moment. Is illegal
:48:21. > :48:25.downloading really that much of a problem? Yes, it is. It is a real
:48:26. > :48:31.issue for our creative industries. So much is lost to illegal
:48:32. > :48:35.downloading and has to be challenged. We all agreed to the
:48:36. > :48:41.Digital economy act in the last Parliament. So we can start educate
:48:42. > :48:46.some of our young people around the issues. A recent OFCOM report said
:48:47. > :48:51.it was a minority activity with 2% of users accounting for three
:48:52. > :48:55.quarters of all downloads. The music industry reckons it loses something
:48:56. > :49:01.like 200 million pounds a year. The film industry has it worse. These
:49:02. > :49:06.are huge figures. They cost jobs and investment. We have to make sure we
:49:07. > :49:09.do something to challenge that. There are legitimate places
:49:10. > :49:12.available where people can get the product legally. We have to make
:49:13. > :49:18.sure people can be directed towards that. We have fantastic industries
:49:19. > :49:23.and we lead the world when it comes to being creative. We should make
:49:24. > :49:28.sure we continue to develop that. Tom Watson, something needs to be
:49:29. > :49:31.done otherwise it is risking our creative industries? I agree that
:49:32. > :49:36.our creative industries are the jewel in the crown of the country.
:49:37. > :49:40.But I am afraid the remedy for the digital Economy act, when it comes
:49:41. > :49:46.to film and music, it is a flawed act. It was railroaded through by
:49:47. > :49:50.Peter Mandelson in the dying days of the last government. It did not go
:49:51. > :49:58.to committee and had no public scrutiny. It was appallingly doesn't
:49:59. > :50:05.live -- delivered to Parliament. But Pete is right. We do need to deal
:50:06. > :50:11.with the super pirates that undermine the market. But clamping
:50:12. > :50:16.down on exit downloaders, I think is a mistake. It is over burdensome. It
:50:17. > :50:22.probably will not have any support out there, will it and the act is
:50:23. > :50:26.flawed? All the parties agreed to it apart from the Liberals. It was
:50:27. > :50:31.designed to ensure that we could educate young people. What they will
:50:32. > :50:37.get is notifications, a nice letter explaining that piracy and
:50:38. > :50:40.downloading is going on in this particular household and it will
:50:41. > :50:44.address it to see how they can deal with this and make sure they are
:50:45. > :50:49.directed towards legitimate site where they can acquire the wonderful
:50:50. > :50:54.products in illegal way. What is wrong with that, Tom Watson? You say
:50:55. > :50:59.it is a sledgehammer to deal with this but how else do you do it?
:51:00. > :51:06.Digital sales of music grew 12%, in fact vinyl sales of music group for
:51:07. > :51:12.a large amount the music industry has failed to deal with the advent
:51:13. > :51:17.of the Internet. They are reaping what they sowed ten years ago. That
:51:18. > :51:23.OFCOM report you talked about, 85% of us bathe the law when it comes to
:51:24. > :51:28.downloading. What they showed was is the letters Pete talk about would
:51:29. > :51:33.not deter infringers from continuing to download. I think there needs to
:51:34. > :51:37.be a different way of doing this. My view would be organisations like
:51:38. > :51:41.Google should use some of the tax money that they are not paying into
:51:42. > :51:45.the Exchequer to really clamp down on the pirate sites which market and
:51:46. > :51:49.make a great deal of money by enhancing piracy, rather than
:51:50. > :51:54.looking at consumers. Some of the artists out there, there is a great
:51:55. > :51:58.musician who has a new album out next Monday, he has released a
:51:59. > :52:02.single for free on YouTube today to try and build that new interest in
:52:03. > :52:08.his music. That is how some of these great creators are going. Isn't that
:52:09. > :52:11.how new careers are made. The problem is, you might damage some of
:52:12. > :52:16.that by introducing what Tom Watson believes is heavy-handed
:52:17. > :52:22.legislation. Shouldn't the onus be put on the companies out there?
:52:23. > :52:27.There is a big obligation to kill Elidh when it comes to piracy. If
:52:28. > :52:35.you do a Google search you will be directed to any number of sites
:52:36. > :52:40.where you will be able to download illegal products. We have industries
:52:41. > :52:44.to support here. It is not just the artists, it is the make up artists,
:52:45. > :52:49.the technicians, the studio engineers. These are fantastic
:52:50. > :52:54.industries we should be proud of. They are telling us they are hurting
:52:55. > :52:59.because of this. We will lose our position in the top three in the
:53:00. > :53:07.sectors around the world. David Blunkett, whose side are you one? We
:53:08. > :53:13.are in a real mess. Was it a shabby piece of legislation? It was not
:53:14. > :53:19.brilliant. The bulk of the act has a good intent which is to say what was
:53:20. > :53:23.illegal, that is theft, in the normal past world should still be
:53:24. > :53:29.left in this digital world. But I agree entirely with the idea that we
:53:30. > :53:32.should tackle the search engines and the piracy as well as warning just
:53:33. > :53:37.individuals that they are actually thieving. The fact that it is the
:53:38. > :53:42.Internet does not mean it is different. It is leaving. In the
:53:43. > :53:46.meantime, the industry which has been squealing about this for many
:53:47. > :53:52.years could diminish? That is not the case. We have more and more
:53:53. > :53:58.people consuming music, literature, art, because of the Internet rather
:53:59. > :54:02.than not because of it. I think the big publishing interests which are
:54:03. > :54:05.backed up by huge lobbyists are threatened, their business model is
:54:06. > :54:11.threatened but new creators entering the market, small musicians, this is
:54:12. > :54:17.a great opportunity. Thank you. Now, what is it about education?
:54:18. > :54:19.Politicians who meddle in it seem to attract an inordinate amount of
:54:20. > :54:22.abuse from the teaching profession and others. The current incumbent at
:54:23. > :54:26.the Department for Education, Michael Gove, has an enthusiastic
:54:27. > :54:29.club of detractors. One Brighton woman is even selling a "Michael
:54:30. > :54:32.Gove Voodoo Pincushion." She says, "it's crocheted by hand and mentally
:54:33. > :54:38.infused with mean thoughts about Michael Gove." Right. But Michael
:54:39. > :54:41.Gove is not alone. Our guest of the day, David Blunkett, may not have
:54:42. > :54:45.had his likeness reproduced as a pin cushion but will remember jeers as
:54:46. > :54:48.well as cheers in his time as Education Secretary. Here's a
:54:49. > :54:50.reminder of what those with the education brief have had to put up
:54:51. > :55:03.with. Most parents can afford to provide
:55:04. > :55:16.their own children with milk or give them money to buy milk.
:55:17. > :55:23.For goodness sake, what is the profession coming to, if I have come
:55:24. > :55:34.here to say things are improving and you heckle me.
:55:35. > :55:40.If people find it stressful that I am demanding higher standards I am
:55:41. > :55:48.not going to stop demanding higher standards.
:55:49. > :55:56.It is a tough job but somebody has got to do it. Our Education
:55:57. > :56:03.Secretary is always hated? If you are doing the job rigourously, you
:56:04. > :56:08.will always upset somebody. Everybody? We did not upset
:56:09. > :56:11.everybody. The worst was when I went to the Association of teachers and
:56:12. > :56:17.lecturers and they had agreed that they would not say a word. Nobody
:56:18. > :56:22.clapped, nobody laughed, nobody booed. It was absolutely deadly.
:56:23. > :56:27.Anyway, I am on good terms with them now. The behaviour has improved,
:56:28. > :56:31.that the Lord, because I said, what sort of example is this for pupils
:56:32. > :56:36.is it when you are behaving like this? We can have a disagreement but
:56:37. > :56:41.we do not have to do it in this way. Sometimes it was good, sometimes it
:56:42. > :56:45.was excruciating. My successor, Estelle Morris and then Charles
:56:46. > :56:53.Clarke, Charles decided he would not turn up at all... Do you think that
:56:54. > :56:58.was right? It was easier life. But you have not gone into it for an
:56:59. > :57:02.easy life. Do you have sympathy for Michael Gove, pin cushions and all?
:57:03. > :57:07.I have sympathy if he gets abused but I do not have sympathy with the
:57:08. > :57:15.ideological part of his agenda. We both want to improve standards.
:57:16. > :57:20.Maybe it is because he is doing the job right now, but he does seem to
:57:21. > :57:24.have attracted an inordinate amount of criticism and abuse. I think it
:57:25. > :57:31.is partly because he starts off not listening and by the time he does
:57:32. > :57:35.listen, people forget it was in the first place. He gets abuse for doing
:57:36. > :57:42.the wrong thing and then he gets chided for having changed his mind.
:57:43. > :57:48.Let's talk about Nick Clegg briefly. Do we have to? ! Who do you think he
:57:49. > :57:53.is appealing to with his policy on free schools. Former Liberal
:57:54. > :57:57.Democrat voters. I could not fault what he said on the three issues
:57:58. > :58:00.that actually, bearing mind that Margaret Thatcher introduced the
:58:01. > :58:05.curriculum, that the government say they are in favour of decent food in
:58:06. > :58:10.schools and that there is only a fringe element that do not think
:58:11. > :58:16.teachers should be able to teach. A Lib lab coalition? Come on. Maybe a
:58:17. > :58:20.neighbour of mine in Sheffield but we are not in a love in. On this one
:58:21. > :58:30.occasion I would agree with him and it is painful to do so. Finally, in
:58:31. > :58:36.the answer to the queries, who resigned yesterday? It was David
:58:37. > :58:44.Cameron, I should have made you guess. Well done, Wales Online, just
:58:45. > :58:48.a bit premature! That's all for today. Thanks to our
:58:49. > :58:52.guests. The One o'clock News is starting over on BBC One now. Andrew
:58:53. > :58:55.and I will be here at 11.30am tomorrow with Prime Minister's
:58:56. > :58:57.Questions and all the big political stories of the day. Do join us then.
:58:58. > :59:01.Bye-bye.