:00:40. > :00:46.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. The top story:
:00:47. > :00:50.Britain's economy grew by 0.8% in the three months to September, the
:00:51. > :00:55.third consecutive quarter of growth. The Chancellor says that the country
:00:56. > :00:59.is on the path to prosperity. A dealer struck to save the
:01:00. > :01:03.petrochemical plant at Grangemouth in Scotland, but only at the cost of
:01:04. > :01:08.the Unite union agreeing to total capitulation.
:01:09. > :01:11.European leaders demand talks with the US and spying after claims that
:01:12. > :01:18.American agencies tapped Angela Merkel's mobile phone!
:01:19. > :01:21.And John Prescott, for it is he, will be here to debate whether
:01:22. > :01:26.public money is being wasted on northern cities like Hull!
:01:27. > :01:32.So all that coming up in the next hour or so, and with us for the next
:01:33. > :01:40.half-hour is Bronwyn Curtis, currently head of global research at
:01:41. > :01:44.a small boutique bank called HSBC, which, unusually, it is not owned by
:01:45. > :01:48.the UK taxpayer, welcome to the programme. Let's start with the
:01:49. > :01:52.latest on the industrial dispute at Grangemouth oil refinery, the
:01:53. > :01:58.petrochemical plant in Scotland. On Wednesday, the owners, INEOS,
:01:59. > :02:01.announced that they would close the petrochemical part of the planned
:02:02. > :02:06.after workers refused to accept a proposal for cuts in their pay and
:02:07. > :02:10.conditions. That meant 800 jobs were at risk. This morning it announced
:02:11. > :02:14.that the unions have backed down almost entirely and accepted the
:02:15. > :02:16.management proposals. This is what the chairman of the Grangemouth
:02:17. > :02:21.petrochemicals company said just over an hour ago. Very happy to
:02:22. > :02:27.announce that, following a meeting with the shareholders yesterday,
:02:28. > :02:32.Grangemouth petrochemicals will remain open, so that decision has
:02:33. > :02:35.been reversed, and INEOS have confirmed that the ?300 million that
:02:36. > :02:39.they are going to put into it will be available and we will start
:02:40. > :02:43.immediately with those projects again. We have also confirmed that,
:02:44. > :02:48.with immediate effect, with due respect to all the safety and
:02:49. > :02:52.timing, that all the assets will start as of today.
:02:53. > :02:57.Well, that is the bass up in Grangemouth, and in the past of our
:02:58. > :03:00.Alex Salmond, following this industrial dispute very closely, has
:03:01. > :03:07.been talking about the details of the deal. The deal is that the
:03:08. > :03:10.survival plan is now back on. That involves substantial investment in
:03:11. > :03:14.the chemical facility and petrochemical facility at
:03:15. > :03:19.Grangemouth. It means not only is the facility not closing, but that
:03:20. > :03:24.investment means there is a prospect of a bright future for the next 25
:03:25. > :03:28.years. So it is a very significant announcement in terms of saving a
:03:29. > :03:33.major part of Scotland's industrial infrastructure. The jobs of the
:03:34. > :03:39.people who depend on the chemical plant, but also, significantly,
:03:40. > :03:42.security over the medium-term, because of the investment plan which
:03:43. > :03:50.is at the heart of the announcement today.
:03:51. > :03:56.Watching the boss of Grangemouth there, he has had the biggest
:03:57. > :04:01.victory over a British union since Mrs Thatcher beat Arthur Scargill,
:04:02. > :04:05.and he looks miserable. Is there the possibility that INEOS did not
:04:06. > :04:09.really want the union to capitulate, they just did not want to do the
:04:10. > :04:12.investment? There were suddenly claims beforehand that maybe all of
:04:13. > :04:17.this had been trumped up, that INEOS wanted to get out of it, and clearly
:04:18. > :04:22.what they have got is ?125 million of loan guarantees from the
:04:23. > :04:31.Treasury. Not actual money but a guarantee. Indeed, and about ?9
:04:32. > :04:34.million from the Scottish government to do this, and they have had a huge
:04:35. > :04:36.amount of political pressure, obviously, to try to change their
:04:37. > :04:39.minds. But they have also had, as you said, the union capitulating.
:04:40. > :04:41.Not a good day for the union, good for the workers, but the union comes
:04:42. > :04:45.out of this looking particularly bad, and the workers have had to
:04:46. > :04:48.take quite a cut in pay and inventions and had to say that they
:04:49. > :04:53.will not strike for the next three years. They have taken a cut in pay,
:04:54. > :04:59.not just pension contributions? Yes, part of the deal will be that their
:05:00. > :05:03.yearly salaries will be reduced, that they will reduce some of their
:05:04. > :05:06.pensions, and it will not strike for the next three years. To all intents
:05:07. > :05:13.and purposes, this is a nonunion plant, a no strike deal, a cut in
:05:14. > :05:18.pay, you have just told us, a cut in pensions as well. I'm even told that
:05:19. > :05:23.the union convenor is not going to be allowed in the plant as well.
:05:24. > :05:27.Clearly, it has had a huge impact on industrial relations there, and the
:05:28. > :05:30.fact that the plant is going to remain open is not going to make
:05:31. > :05:34.those industrial relations much better in the short term, and
:05:35. > :05:40.clearly in the refinery as well. So the plan is that the oil refinery
:05:41. > :05:45.will reopen at some stage, that was not closed down. The petrochemicals
:05:46. > :05:49.plant reopens now, and they proceed with about ?300 million worth of
:05:50. > :05:55.investment to allow them to bring natural gas from the United States
:05:56. > :05:58.in tankers to a new harbour, in Newport at Grangemouth, and the
:05:59. > :06:02.petrochemical plant will keep going. That is the planned Umax absolutely
:06:03. > :06:09.right, and they say it has got a good life span of 15 to 20 years.
:06:10. > :06:14.That will come as good news for the workers and for Grangemouth as a
:06:15. > :06:19.whole. Some 2000 of the subcontractors have already been
:06:20. > :06:24.laid off, so clearly good news for the whole area, good news for the
:06:25. > :06:28.Scottish Government and the UK Government, which put a huge amount
:06:29. > :06:32.of pressure on the company. Because it was all happening within the
:06:33. > :06:35.context of the independence referendum. Here is the rub, the
:06:36. > :06:42.deal seems to have been done, but there is a worldwide glut of simple
:06:43. > :06:45.petrochemicals like ethylene, which is what this plant is going to make,
:06:46. > :06:50.and Dow Chemical Company ethylene at about a third of the price that
:06:51. > :06:57.Grangemouth can. Where does this go? This is Dow Chemical in Texas,
:06:58. > :07:01.compared to Grangemouth. When you talk about 15 or 20 years, I heard
:07:02. > :07:04.Alex Salmond talking about 25 years, what are the market
:07:05. > :07:09.realities? A lot more gas is coming out through fracking. The economic
:07:10. > :07:15.South changed so much and these European based plans have the
:07:16. > :07:22.company canonical. -- the economic have changed. The pressure is going
:07:23. > :07:27.forward are going to come back again, so we might be in the same
:07:28. > :07:30.position in three years' time. Dow Chemical told me they are moving out
:07:31. > :07:36.of Europe, out of Japan, and they are about to board $30 billion of
:07:37. > :07:41.new capacity into taxes to use the cheap natural gas. -- Texas. You do
:07:42. > :07:45.not have to be an expert to know that these plans will be state of
:07:46. > :07:50.the art, unit costs low, and Grangemouth will look a dinosaur.
:07:51. > :07:57.Not just Grangemouth, but a lot of Europe. Of course, Europe is not
:07:58. > :08:01.growing either, so already we have seen energy by passing Europe and
:08:02. > :08:05.going straight from the US to the Middle East, to Asia, to the growing
:08:06. > :08:10.parts of the world, and once they get this high-tech factory and so
:08:11. > :08:14.on, it will put more and more pressure on that. I do not see it
:08:15. > :08:19.getting better, I see it getting worse, and I think this is good for
:08:20. > :08:22.the moment, but going forward we might be seeing more cost-cutting.
:08:23. > :08:27.On the politics of this, very briefly, did anybody win in the
:08:28. > :08:30.sense that there was a battle between Holyrood in Edinburgh,
:08:31. > :08:35.Westminster in London, did anybody come out on this? I think both
:08:36. > :08:38.governments will take away from the fact that they have managed to get
:08:39. > :08:43.the decision reversed, and it was clearly very important for them that
:08:44. > :08:46.it did not shut down, for different reasons clearly, the only oil
:08:47. > :08:52.refinery in Scotland, that would have been a catastrophe for the
:08:53. > :08:55.Scottish Government, and for UK Government, it would have been a
:08:56. > :09:00.catastrophe for them to lose the indirect jobs.
:09:01. > :09:04.Time now for the daily quiz, and the question is who is threatening to go
:09:05. > :09:07.on strike in France next month? They always go on strike in France, you
:09:08. > :09:14.might say! Les boulangers, les pompiers, Gerard Depardieu, les
:09:15. > :09:24.footballeurs? I think Gerard Depardieu lives in Russia now. A bit
:09:25. > :09:29.later in the show Bronwen, of course, will tell us if she has any
:09:30. > :09:33.idea what we are talking about. Right, come close, close! Listen
:09:34. > :09:38.carefully, and you might be able to hear the sound of champagne corks
:09:39. > :09:41.popping in Whitehall. Not that the champion of austerity, George
:09:42. > :09:44.Osborne, would indulge in such an extravagance, not since the
:09:45. > :09:49.Bullingdon Club days, but he might have afforded himself an extra
:09:50. > :09:54.rasher of bacon following the new growth figures. Third-quarter growth
:09:55. > :09:59.for this year is up 0.8%, a wee bit up on the 0.7 figure from April to
:10:00. > :10:04.June. It means the UK economy is due to grow by around 1.5%, maybe more,
:10:05. > :10:10.this year. Growth continues to be driven by a strong service sector,
:10:11. > :10:16.now 0.6% higher than its peak before the 2008 crash. Manufacturing and
:10:17. > :10:21.construction also grew strongly. Unemployment continues to fall, with
:10:22. > :10:25.the number of people out of work down 18,000 in the three months to
:10:26. > :10:30.August. The total number of people currently in work is at a record
:10:31. > :10:36.high. House prices are rising again. The Halifax survey said
:10:37. > :10:40.average property prices have risen by 5.4% in the year to August,
:10:41. > :10:44.pushing the cost of the average house price to its highest level for
:10:45. > :10:49.five years. Of course, that is boosted by London and the South. And
:10:50. > :10:54.UK car production is also up to levels not seen since 2008, with
:10:55. > :11:00.more than 140,000 cars rolling off the production line last year. That
:11:01. > :11:04.is up 10% on one year ago, and, here is a change, because actually work!
:11:05. > :11:09.But wages continue to be squeezed, with average pay rises of 0.8% in
:11:10. > :11:15.the last year, a lot less than inflation, which remains stubbornly
:11:16. > :11:19.high at 2.7%. And that means that, unlike the economy, living standards
:11:20. > :11:23.are not growing. This is what the Chancellor had to
:11:24. > :11:28.say this morning. I think Britain's hard work is paying off, and we are
:11:29. > :11:32.on the path to prosperity. Lots of risks remain, but I think there is
:11:33. > :11:35.real momentum in the economy and in all sectors of the economy,
:11:36. > :11:38.manufacturing and construction as well as services, so that is good
:11:39. > :11:43.news for Britain and for British families, because it will eat to an
:11:44. > :11:50.increase in loving standards. Conservative MP Charlie Elphicke and
:11:51. > :11:53.Labour's Chris Leslie join us now, welcome to both of you. Charlie
:11:54. > :11:56.Elphicke, any chance that you will get the economy back to the size
:11:57. > :11:59.that it was in 2008? I think these figures are really good news, and
:12:00. > :12:03.Britain's hard work is clearly paying off, we are on the path back
:12:04. > :12:08.to prosperity, but as you say there is a lot to do. The Governor of the
:12:09. > :12:11.Bank of England says the recovery lacks traction and is currently too
:12:12. > :12:16.focused on the south-east. I think the figures today are really
:12:17. > :12:19.positive, particularly construction up 2.5%, and the manufacture in
:12:20. > :12:30.figures are particularly welcome. But what's point, too focused on the
:12:31. > :12:32.south-east? The Chancellor has been working hard to ensure we have more
:12:33. > :12:35.prosperity in the North and across the whole country, and it is
:12:36. > :12:37.important that it is spread across the nation. Chris Leslie, you must
:12:38. > :12:42.be overjoyed that the economy is growing at a rate of 3%! It is
:12:43. > :12:46.overdue. We should have had this level of growth several years ago by
:12:47. > :12:51.now, but for most people they are still paying the price for that
:12:52. > :12:55.lag, that delay, in getting growth moving. We have had three years,
:12:56. > :12:59.virtual stagnation, so while we should be out of the blocks, a lot
:13:00. > :13:04.of our competitors internationally have zoomed ahead. Oh, really? Tell
:13:05. > :13:09.me a major economy in Europe that is growing faster than Britain! Well,
:13:10. > :13:16.in terms of the quarterly rate, you know, they do vary... Well, take the
:13:17. > :13:21.annual rate, tell me a major economy that has grown faster than Britain
:13:22. > :13:25.this year. The question is, when did those economies turn the corner and
:13:26. > :13:30.get out of recession, and most of those economies, Germany, France and
:13:31. > :13:34.the USA, were moving out of their recovery years ago. We are only just
:13:35. > :13:37.getting out of the blocks. The reason that matters is because it
:13:38. > :13:42.has fed into depressed wages, purchasing power of take-home income
:13:43. > :13:47.has not been able to keep pace with prices, and that is where we really
:13:48. > :13:50.have to focus on cost of living. You have answered your question, could
:13:51. > :13:55.you answer mine? Tommy a major economy in Europe that is growing
:13:56. > :13:59.faster than Britain in 2013. -- tell me. You are right to say that when
:14:00. > :14:05.we start, of course we should be motoring on fairly quickly. So there
:14:06. > :14:09.isn't! There isn't! The key question is, at what point do you get out of
:14:10. > :14:14.the blocks. Those economies have been motoring on a lot longer...
:14:15. > :14:20.What, France, Italy, Spain? It will be interesting to see whether this
:14:21. > :14:25.level of growth can be sustained. All right, let me put... There are
:14:26. > :14:28.concerns about whether we are seeing a lopsided recovery, with the Help
:14:29. > :14:31.To Buy scheme looking at people is adding to question whether there is
:14:32. > :14:39.a bubble in London and the south-east, so there is a lot of
:14:40. > :14:42.anxiety is now about sustainability. There is always a bubble in London
:14:43. > :14:49.and the south-east when it comes to higher prices. It is all well and
:14:50. > :14:54.good for us to sit in the studios and talk about GDP growth figures,
:14:55. > :14:58.which are frankly of no relevance to most people directly. What matters
:14:59. > :15:02.are the prices in the shops and the pay in people's pay pockets at the
:15:03. > :15:07.end of the week or the month. And people are still suffering. This
:15:08. > :15:13.growth makes no difference to them. The difficulty you have is that
:15:14. > :15:18.every recession, you have a fall in earnings, it happens every time. We
:15:19. > :15:23.had the first recession --worst recession in 100 years. But you get
:15:24. > :15:30.much quicker bounce backs than we have had. Peoples wages start to
:15:31. > :15:35.rise quickly again, this is abnormal. Under your Government,
:15:36. > :15:38.living standards have not risen. It is an abnormal recession, because we
:15:39. > :15:42.had the massive debt crisis that came with it, so it has been a
:15:43. > :15:47.struggle to get the nation back on the path to prosperity. Labour's
:15:48. > :15:51.idea was more borrowing, spending and debt which will only drive up
:15:52. > :15:55.mortgage rates. You are doubling the amount of money the country will
:15:56. > :16:00.borrow in the five years you will be in power. But Ed Balls is calling
:16:01. > :16:05.for more borrowing and spending. Whether it is 1.5 trillion or 1.6
:16:06. > :16:09.trillion, it is irrelevant, it is trillions. We're working hard to
:16:10. > :16:13.make the nation's finances come back into order as quickly as possible
:16:14. > :16:20.and support the markets, helping to keep mortgage rates low. Chris, over
:16:21. > :16:23.to you. You might forget this, but you lost the triple-A rating this
:16:24. > :16:26.country used to have and the borrowing levels have been so high
:16:27. > :16:30.without the deficit coming down significantly in the last couple of
:16:31. > :16:33.years, because of the costs of economic failure. You can't expect
:16:34. > :16:38.people to just have collective amnesia about the past three years.
:16:39. > :16:41.The fact that we haven't been getting out of recovery really
:16:42. > :16:45.matters. That is the reason why there has been so much weight on
:16:46. > :16:49.people's take-home pay and people are not able to feel this recovery.
:16:50. > :16:53.So when you and the Chancellor talk about prosperity returning, it shows
:16:54. > :16:57.how out of touch you are when the most people, life is getting harder.
:16:58. > :17:02.You have no answers on the cost of living, certainly when it comes to
:17:03. > :17:06.energy bills and other issues. You have to focus on helping ordinary
:17:07. > :17:11.working people and doing it urgently. We have heard from the
:17:12. > :17:15.politicians. What say you? I think we need to look forward. Everyone is
:17:16. > :17:20.more confident than they were. We have got a recovery. And if it lacks
:17:21. > :17:24.traction, as Mark Carney says, it probably does and what he is saying
:17:25. > :17:31.is we are going to keep rates as low for as long as we can to make sure
:17:32. > :17:35.this economy gets some traction. Can I just say, first of all, he is
:17:36. > :17:40.going to have do up his forecast, because he's underestimating, but if
:17:41. > :17:45.it does grow by 3% next year, if it continues its current growth rate,
:17:46. > :17:50.can he keep interest rates low? No, but you are not going to have 3%
:17:51. > :17:55.next year. It would be great... Speaker at Big Apple, the city has
:17:56. > :18:03.got this wrong before. Yes, and I think you are being optimistic. --be
:18:04. > :18:08.careful, the city has got this wrong before. Investment intentions are
:18:09. > :18:14.rub, but investment is still down. If you look at the period in real
:18:15. > :18:21.terms, we are down so you need firms to invest to keep it going. Chris
:18:22. > :18:25.Leslie, does Labour still have a plan B? I think our plan, we want
:18:26. > :18:33.the Government to pursue the plan B, which is focused on British
:18:34. > :18:36.investments, make sure you look at house-buying and of course, most
:18:37. > :18:43.important of all, help people with bad cost of living. That is our plan
:18:44. > :18:49.B. So this is a new plan because you mark a plan C? We have been
:18:50. > :19:00.advocating a different course for a long time, we have been banging on
:19:01. > :19:04.about the need for growth for a long time and we haven't had it for three
:19:05. > :19:08.years. Of course it is overdue but let's focus on making sure it is
:19:09. > :19:12.sustained and strong, it is the only way to help people with the cost of
:19:13. > :19:15.living. When you come back down here, you can talk about plan C. Why
:19:16. > :19:17.is business not investing in this country? That is the next thing to
:19:18. > :19:22.follow. We are moving from rescue to recovery and then to prosperity.
:19:23. > :19:29.There will be bumps in the road. Why is it not investing? Business should
:19:30. > :19:36.weigh in, thinking the recovery is logging in, and then... It is more
:19:37. > :19:38.likely now that businesses will invest. We are more optimistic
:19:39. > :19:44.manner that business will start to invest and living standards will
:19:45. > :19:50.turn. You better come back and see me as well, see if businesses are
:19:51. > :19:52.investing and see if plan B is really plan C. Thanks to both of
:19:53. > :19:56.you. Let's talk about the allegations
:19:57. > :20:00.that United States spying agencies have been listening to the private
:20:01. > :20:02.mobile phone conversations of world leaders, including the German
:20:03. > :20:09.Chancellor Angela Merkel. Yesterday, she spoke to Barack Obama about the
:20:10. > :20:13.claims. He told that America was not and would not tap her phone, but it
:20:14. > :20:18.does open the possibility that the US has been doing exactly that. The
:20:19. > :20:28.issue has dominated a meeting of EU leaders in Brussels. Let's get the
:20:29. > :20:34.latest from Ian. So we have the eurozone crisis, 60% youth
:20:35. > :20:39.unemployment in Spain, is this really what they are talking about?
:20:40. > :20:45.It is, they are talking about red tape, the digital economy, when they
:20:46. > :20:51.introduce data protection rules, the Prime Minister actually wants then
:20:52. > :20:57.delayed until 2015, but the official agenda didn't have it, if the two
:20:58. > :21:01.major powers want it on the table it will turn upon the menu, and they
:21:02. > :21:05.talked about this extensively last night. After the session was wound
:21:06. > :21:08.up in the middle of the night, Herman Van Rompuy, the president of
:21:09. > :21:12.the European Council, issued what seemed to be an implicit threat to
:21:13. > :21:18.the United States, saying we need mutual respect and trust and if not,
:21:19. > :21:21.it could prejudice intelligence gathering and sharing when it comes
:21:22. > :21:25.to countering terrorism. Angela Merkel spoke of the night and we
:21:26. > :21:29.expect her to speak against it. If you are reading between the lines,
:21:30. > :21:33.her lines are written in green ink! She said very clearly that in the
:21:34. > :21:36.new relationship, trust has been breached. The Americans have not
:21:37. > :21:41.denied they have tapped her phone, so obviously they have. She said
:21:42. > :21:45.they need radical change by the end of the year. France and Germany are
:21:46. > :21:50.joining together to try and forge that union with America, but perhaps
:21:51. > :21:55.less than extensively reported, some of the European leaders said that
:21:56. > :22:02.everyone should share what they knew about this, what has been called
:22:03. > :22:09.Datagate, David Cameron remained very silent indeed! Interestingly,
:22:10. > :22:12.Herman Van Rompuy was saying we had to rebuild trust not just with
:22:13. > :22:16.America but with other European nations. If I was the President of
:22:17. > :22:21.France or Chancellor of Germany and I am sure both nations are glad I am
:22:22. > :22:27.not, I would be thinking that if that is what big Satan has been too
:22:28. > :22:31.to, Little Satan in the shape of GCHQ, must have been up to the same
:22:32. > :22:35.thing. Is David Cameron a little bit sheepish about this? I think
:22:36. > :22:39.sheepish is a good word. When he arrives, he usually stops after
:22:40. > :22:43.talk, this time it would have been about red tape but yesterday he
:22:44. > :22:46.drove straight past me and refused to answer a question about things
:22:47. > :22:51.being overshadowed by this spying scandal. So when he speaks in the
:22:52. > :22:54.next ten minutes or so at his press conference, it will be the first
:22:55. > :22:57.words he has uttered publicly since he got beer, almost the last
:22:58. > :23:09.European leader to do so. There was an accusation from Italy that GCHQ
:23:10. > :23:15.may have been doing the same thing. You go and get them. Should we be in
:23:16. > :23:20.any way surprised that America or Britain or anybody actually
:23:21. > :23:26.eavesdrops on their allies? No! I am surprised that people are surprised.
:23:27. > :23:30.Look, investment banks, four years and years, for as long as I
:23:31. > :23:33.remember, have recorded all of their telephone calls that go through
:23:34. > :23:39.their dealing desks and so on. We know we had a bit of a scandal with
:23:40. > :23:46.Bluebird, every keystroke is recorded, so you know all of this.
:23:47. > :23:54.We know that mobile phones have been hacked. We do, a lot. Speaking why
:23:55. > :23:59.would you be surprised this happen? Now, over the past two decades,
:24:00. > :24:02.Ingrid's big industrial cities have developed strong service sector
:24:03. > :24:06.economy is, but some of the smaller industrial towns, still quite large
:24:07. > :24:09.but smaller than Manchester or Liverpool or Newcastle, mainly in
:24:10. > :24:17.the north, have been listed as decaying by an article in the
:24:18. > :24:21.Economist. The article says that their decline should be managed by
:24:22. > :24:25.supporting the people who live there, to help them commute to
:24:26. > :24:28.places where there are jobs, rather than rescuing them like Michael
:24:29. > :24:31.Heseltine did with Liverpool in the 1980s and the Blair-Brown
:24:32. > :24:36.governments did in the last decade or so. There has been an outcry in
:24:37. > :24:48.Hull, one of the city is named by the Economist article, so Tim
:24:49. > :24:51.Iredale went off to investigate. With its waterfront, dogs and
:24:52. > :25:01.industrial heritage, Liverpool has much in common with Hull, its fellow
:25:02. > :25:05.maritime city --Docs. Many people in Hull will look at Liverpool with
:25:06. > :25:09.some envy. In recent years, it has had one of the fastest-growing
:25:10. > :25:13.economies in the UK, so it is hard to imagine that just over 30 years
:25:14. > :25:19.ago, there was talk in Government of abandoning this city. Archive
:25:20. > :25:25.documents reveal that following riots in Liverpool in 1981, the then
:25:26. > :25:30.Chancellor Geoffrey Howe suggested a programme of managed decline. There
:25:31. > :25:37.was an echo of that era in a recent edition of the Economist, entitled
:25:38. > :25:40.Britain's Decaying Towns, which suggested the Government should turn
:25:41. > :25:45.up the spending taps in so-called failing towns and cities such as
:25:46. > :25:50.Hull, Burnley and Middlesbrough. The argument is about where jobs are
:25:51. > :25:52.created. For a long time, the Government has put effort into
:25:53. > :25:59.trying to move people to where the jobs are and it hasn't really
:26:00. > :26:04.worked. We still see these persistent statistics, like in
:26:05. > :26:09.Hull, where 27% of working age households have nobody in work.
:26:10. > :26:15.Former Liverpool MP and Labour Minister Peter Kilfoyle says he has
:26:16. > :26:19.heard that argument before and it has been proved wrong. We had it a
:26:20. > :26:22.few years ago saying that places in the North should be abandoned and
:26:23. > :26:27.everybody should move to London and Oxford, the growth areas. This is
:26:28. > :26:33.nonsense. Any forward-looking Government, any forward-looking
:26:34. > :26:39.society that wants to invest in people should invest. Have we got a
:26:40. > :26:44.point where we say we cannot invest in a city if there are no results?
:26:45. > :26:48.Any Government who says that has to ask why they have not got the
:26:49. > :26:51.results they set out to obtain. Part of the reason in this country is
:26:52. > :26:55.that everything is concentrated in the south-east. The country as a
:26:56. > :26:59.cannot continue with everything being emphasised in the south-east
:27:00. > :27:05.at the cost of the rest of the country. Know the man who was
:27:06. > :27:11.credited with turning Liverpool's fortunes around in the 1980s has
:27:12. > :27:14.entered the debate. Lord has time has been commissioned by the present
:27:15. > :27:23.Government to look at of boosting economic growth in places like Hull
:27:24. > :27:26.-- Lord Heseltine. He says the present solution is devolving powers
:27:27. > :27:29.away from places like London. Speaking at what I am trying to show
:27:30. > :27:34.is that over the decades, you would be much better trying to show what
:27:35. > :27:40.you would do if you originated the idea is. You actually know what
:27:41. > :27:45.Leeds needs. What Bradford needs, what Hull needs, so let's start the
:27:46. > :27:52.other way. The best way to start is to find out who is in charge. That
:27:53. > :27:59.is why I believe indirectly elected mayors -- in directly elected. Speak
:28:00. > :28:03.that ministers have dismissed talks of struggling Northern cities being
:28:04. > :28:07.abandoned by Government, a move that is sure to make waves from the
:28:08. > :28:12.Humber to the Mersey -- ministers have dismissed talks.
:28:13. > :28:17.We are joined by Daniel Knowles, he is from the Economist, who wrote the
:28:18. > :28:23.piece, and by former deputy prime is to John Prescott, MP for Hull for 30
:28:24. > :28:27.years. What is your reaction to this proposal? I don't know what it
:28:28. > :28:31.means, it says that cities have grown in the report and smaller
:28:32. > :28:36.cities like Hull have not, but when we came into power after 18 years,
:28:37. > :28:39.this two speed economy was there through the boom and bust policies,
:28:40. > :28:45.housing down and investment down. They came in and they scrapped the
:28:46. > :28:49.RDAs, which Heseltine agrees with, we have these bodies that deal at
:28:50. > :28:53.the local level without resources or powers, so the two speed economy
:28:54. > :28:58.comes from the same policies they had then. Why have cities like
:28:59. > :29:03.Manchester or Newcastle or Leeds seen a revival, and recreated
:29:04. > :29:08.themselves for the 21st century? Because we give them the power and
:29:09. > :29:13.resources. Because of the size of the cities. There was a report which
:29:14. > :29:16.said that the ten cities that had grown considerably over that time
:29:17. > :29:22.was due to the development and planning of the RDAs and the extra
:29:23. > :29:25.resources given to them. The smaller ones are outside. This is why I
:29:26. > :29:32.think I disagree, the Economist would disagree with you. The
:29:33. > :29:36.regional development agencies, I think, were not a particular
:29:37. > :29:41.success. The reason big cities grew was sadly nothing to do with them. I
:29:42. > :29:45.was in Manchester recently and I asked if the cutting of the RDA
:29:46. > :29:52.affected them and they said no. Never mind that. What you want are
:29:53. > :29:57.the what you might call second-tier revival of the industrial cities,
:29:58. > :30:02.the Middlesbrough, Hull, Sheffield, they are part of that. Are you just
:30:03. > :30:05.saying we cannot save the city is the way we have Manchester or
:30:06. > :30:10.Newcastle, so the last person to leave should switch off the lights?
:30:11. > :30:15.What we are saying is what we shouldn't do, what we failed to do
:30:16. > :30:20.is spending money on a lot of things like the Pathfinder scheme, a lot of
:30:21. > :30:24.money on trying to prettify towns. We didn't spend anywhere near enough
:30:25. > :30:27.money on schools, we didn't do enough to reform the schools. You
:30:28. > :30:33.didn't do enough to turn around schools. Schools turned around in
:30:34. > :30:38.central London, they didn't... I'm not sure if you are right but how
:30:39. > :30:46.would that affect Hull? The main problem with Hull is that, the main
:30:47. > :30:49.problems are its weak skills and high-level of people without proper
:30:50. > :30:52.qualifications, and its weak transport links. The transportation
:30:53. > :30:58.industries, fishing industries, they have been going over time. Now we
:30:59. > :31:03.have major energy coming into the area, new industrialisation. You
:31:04. > :31:12.didn't even notice it. It hasn't even been confirmed. Why didn't you
:31:13. > :31:19.write about that? It is not going to be enough. What should we do? This
:31:20. > :31:22.is the point, the main thing in keeping young people and places like
:31:23. > :31:27.Middlesbrough, Hartlepool, Hull and Wolverhampton, unfortunately, partly
:31:28. > :31:30.to poor schooling. In the Guardian yesterday they were teenagers in
:31:31. > :31:37.West Bromwich saying that they wanted to move to Birmingham. Where
:31:38. > :31:41.the jobs are! Exactly. Is it workers to work... This has been the
:31:42. > :31:44.argument, you can have a judgment whether to intervene, build the
:31:45. > :31:47.local economy or tell them to come down to London. The same Guardian
:31:48. > :31:52.report was saying that they were having problems here, as commuters,
:31:53. > :31:55.getting very anxious, they had no time... You were deputy prime
:31:56. > :32:03.Minster for ten years, shouldn't you have done more for Hull? I will not
:32:04. > :32:07.go into all the details, but we did. I was of there filming, you kindly
:32:08. > :32:19.arranged it, and it is a very depressed city. You could not have
:32:20. > :32:24.been there for long. You need the new base change, the major
:32:25. > :32:28.structural changes that take place in Hull. Siemens, it is all right
:32:29. > :32:33.saying, they have not settled it, but they settled the first part.
:32:34. > :32:37.That will transform Hull. All I am saying, yes, right about the
:32:38. > :32:41.difficulties, but have a look at how people are trying to deal with it,
:32:42. > :32:45.lifting up the ambitions of people. In terms of attracting investors
:32:46. > :32:50.like Siemens, a faster transport link, faster trains from Hull two
:32:51. > :32:56.leads... It is near to the water with Siemens, you are getting it all
:32:57. > :33:04.wrong. They want to build them out at sea. If you had closer links to
:33:05. > :33:09.not just London, but to York, to Leeds, to the other cities. These
:33:10. > :33:13.are weak transport links. Siemens is the biggest thing that will happen
:33:14. > :33:17.to Humberside, and energy concentration were 20% of our energy
:33:18. > :33:21.is coming in. It used to be cold, that has gone, now it is new
:33:22. > :33:28.energy. Why don't you report in a more optimistic we? Is Siemens, in
:33:29. > :33:33.your view, in enough to turn around Hull? I do not think it is, and I am
:33:34. > :33:36.sceptical of the idea of a huge energy revolution that will be
:33:37. > :33:41.enough. I think if Hull had... There is some hope, we have never said
:33:42. > :33:48.that Hull should disappear off the map. What we are saying is that it
:33:49. > :33:54.needs to focus itself, and it needs to... You should focus the
:33:55. > :34:01.arguments! He is an idea, why don't you go back up to Hull with John
:34:02. > :34:05.Prescott... It is a good idea! We might even send a camera. It is a
:34:06. > :34:14.good idea, I would be happy to do that.
:34:15. > :34:18.Thank you very much to both of you, time to get the answer to the quiz,
:34:19. > :34:23.who is threatening to go on strike in France next month? Not bakers,
:34:24. > :34:29.not firemen, not even Gerard Depardieu. Is it the footballers? It
:34:30. > :34:33.is the footballers. That is the correct answer, they will get a lot
:34:34. > :34:38.of sympathy! Will I feel sorry for them? Anyway, it has gone half past
:34:39. > :34:42.12, coming up in a moment, our regular look at what has been going
:34:43. > :34:47.on in European politics. For now, it is time to say goodbye to all our
:34:48. > :34:51.guests, particularly Bronwen... Don't forget the rugby league World
:34:52. > :34:57.Cup this weekend! We are going to be focusing on Europe, and we will be
:34:58. > :35:01.looking at David Cameron's attack on European red tape, the rise of
:35:02. > :35:06.anti-EU parties across the continent, allegations that American
:35:07. > :35:10.spies have been eavesdropping on Angela Merkel's mobile phone. First,
:35:11. > :35:17.the latest from Europe in just 60 seconds.
:35:18. > :35:21.National leaders gathered in Brussels this week to talk about
:35:22. > :35:28.growth, immigration and red tape for business. The EU agreed to restart
:35:29. > :35:31.taxation talks with Turkey, negotiations had been put on hold
:35:32. > :35:38.after the government crackdown on protests. MEPs voted for tougher
:35:39. > :35:46.scrutiny procedures for medical devices used in the human body, like
:35:47. > :35:50.breast or hip implants. In the wake of the Edward Snowden revelations,
:35:51. > :35:54.new laws have been proposed by the European Parliament's civil
:35:55. > :35:57.liberties committee, forcing companies to destroy an
:35:58. > :36:01.individual's personal data if requested.
:36:02. > :36:07.And have the Americans been tapping the German Chancellor, Angela
:36:08. > :36:11.Merkel's mobile phone. The US says it is not listening to her cause but
:36:12. > :36:18.left open the question of whether it has done in the past.
:36:19. > :36:22.-- calls. With us for the next 30 minutes, I
:36:23. > :36:27.am joined by two British members of the European Parliament, Claude
:36:28. > :36:30.Moraes and Jacqueline Foster. Welcome to you both. Let's kicked
:36:31. > :36:34.off with the spying row and allegations that American spies have
:36:35. > :36:37.been listening to private conversations of European leaders on
:36:38. > :36:42.their mobile phones, and at a press conference at the EU summit
:36:43. > :36:45.Chancellor Angela Merkel said that once seeds of mistrust had been
:36:46. > :36:49.sown, cooperation on intelligence matters would be made more
:36:50. > :36:53.difficult. Words that are probably true, but I'm not quite sure whether
:36:54. > :36:57.the European leaders are right to be outraged, or whether they are just
:36:58. > :37:03.being naive, what say you? I have always believed that spies normally
:37:04. > :37:06.spy. Even on their own side? I think they probably do, and I understand
:37:07. > :37:10.that they are pretty perturbed about this, and I am sure they will make
:37:11. > :37:14.up this little spat with the Americans. But you have also got to
:37:15. > :37:20.look at how all of this started, and of course this now comes down to
:37:21. > :37:25.Edward Snowden, this looks at the 58,000 pieces of information... Not
:37:26. > :37:29.how it started, how we found out! We need to be concentrating on that
:37:30. > :37:34.much more than the situation that we have arrived in, not least because
:37:35. > :37:38.when we have people who work for our security services, be it in America,
:37:39. > :37:43.Germany, France, or the UK, I think we have a right to be able to trust
:37:44. > :37:46.them. I think the German people will think they have a right to know
:37:47. > :37:49.whether the Americans are spying on their Chancellor or not. I am
:37:50. > :37:53.astonished that they do not know what is going on with their own
:37:54. > :37:57.security people, to be frank! You would think the German security
:37:58. > :38:06.would have quite a good bloc on Chancellor Merkel's phone, are they
:38:07. > :38:10.being naive? Everyone is talking about the economy, and migration
:38:11. > :38:12.should have been at this summit. The issue is stale and proportionality.
:38:13. > :38:18.What Snowden did was reveal something, the sheer scale of what
:38:19. > :38:27.the NSA is doing. What you'll find in more revelations is that the
:38:28. > :38:30.Asian countries are... If the European leaders are right to be
:38:31. > :38:36.outraged, at the revelation that America is by Don? Yes, because of
:38:37. > :38:40.the sheer scale of it. Spying goes on, it has always go on, and you
:38:41. > :38:47.will have former NSA people saying that you are being naive. Of course
:38:48. > :38:52.it has gone on. But it is the sheer scale of it, the depth of it. Never
:38:53. > :39:00.mind the scale, are they right to be outraged that Angela Merkel's mobile
:39:01. > :39:04.phone has been spied on? Yes. So why did the last Labour government spy
:39:05. > :39:09.on the G20 leaders? If they did, it was wrong. But why did they do it?
:39:10. > :39:13.Is it the case that friendly governments to spy on each other? As
:39:14. > :39:17.this government spied on the French throughout our negotiations to join
:39:18. > :39:24.what was then the Common market? The key point in looking at this, and we
:39:25. > :39:28.have got a European Parliamentary inquiry into that, the key point is
:39:29. > :39:34.scale and proportionality. We have to fight terrorism through spying,
:39:35. > :39:38.and spying on the South Koreans, you have to do that, that is part of
:39:39. > :39:41.realpolitik. But if you do it is disproportionately and you do it not
:39:42. > :39:46.for security reasons, there's going to be a problem. The president of
:39:47. > :39:49.the European Parliament are so outraged that he says Europe should
:39:50. > :39:56.call off its free-trade talks with America. He's been completely
:39:57. > :39:59.ridiculous, and all of this is naive, quite frankly. If anyone
:40:00. > :40:05.thinks for a moment that we, as people in this country or any other
:40:06. > :40:07.country that our intelligence and security forces, who spend their
:40:08. > :40:12.entire lives trying to keep us all in one piece are going to
:40:13. > :40:16.literally, you know, be doing things... They are doing things we
:40:17. > :40:19.don't really want to do, and I think most of the time we do not really
:40:20. > :40:23.know what they want to do what they need to do. So I think they need to
:40:24. > :40:28.all get over this. We will not get over it, but we are out of time. As
:40:29. > :40:32.we have been hearing, the EU summit in Brussels is in full swing, but
:40:33. > :40:40.rather than discussing how to consolidate the economic recovery,
:40:41. > :40:43.the gathering so far has been commented by the spying row. It is
:40:44. > :40:45.all a far cry from what David Cameron was hoping to discuss, red
:40:46. > :40:48.tape! He went to the summit arguing that UK firms were being throttled,
:40:49. > :40:52.his word, by European Union red tape. He wants a one in, one out
:40:53. > :40:58.rule, where every regulation and directive created should see another
:40:59. > :41:03.one being removed. Conservative sources say he wants to see 1500
:41:04. > :41:08.regulations reviewed, and he seems to have won some support from an
:41:09. > :41:12.unlikely area. Jose Manuel Barroso, the outgoing president of the
:41:13. > :41:16.European Commission, has conceded that many people suspect Europe,
:41:17. > :41:22.quote, generates too much red tape and interferes when it doesn't have
:41:23. > :41:28.to. He points out that since 2005 the commission has repealed almost
:41:29. > :41:32.5600 laws, so just how big a problem is this? More than 100 business
:41:33. > :41:36.leaders have written to the European Council, calling on them to cut red
:41:37. > :41:40.tape. Critics have suggested that David Cameron is trying to avoid
:41:41. > :41:45.tackling the tricky issue of renegotiating EU treaties, something
:41:46. > :41:49.he promised to do. So is Mr Cameron right, or is he making too much of
:41:50. > :41:53.this? He is absolutely right, and this is not just a recent agenda of
:41:54. > :41:57.the Conservative Party. When I was elected in 1999, one of the key
:41:58. > :42:01.points in the manifesto was that we would cut red tape. Now, it maybe
:42:02. > :42:05.they have got to a point, where the commissioner said, they have
:42:06. > :42:14.abolished 5000 regulations... They have not told us how many they have
:42:15. > :42:17.introduced since then! If I a pound for every politician that promise to
:42:18. > :42:19.cut red tape, I would not need to city, I would be on the beach in the
:42:20. > :42:23.Caribbean. Gordon Brown once promised a bonfire of the quangos!
:42:24. > :42:30.Alex Salmond promised a bonfire of the quangos! Let me start with that
:42:31. > :42:35.admission, we said it key 00, it is motherhood and apple pie. David
:42:36. > :42:40.Cameron has got some substantial people to say it, cutting red tape
:42:41. > :42:44.is a good thing, we want that to happen. Is it going to happen? This
:42:45. > :42:50.one in, one out rule needs to have credibility, and the issue is that
:42:51. > :42:53.some regulation, some of it is a good thing, so for example new
:42:54. > :43:00.patient rights, new health labelling, that is good
:43:01. > :43:06.bureaucracy, unfortunately. Let her come into that. I really have to
:43:07. > :43:09.come in here. You can! Thank you very much, Andrew! The whole point
:43:10. > :43:13.on this is that we know we are bogged down with red tape, and when
:43:14. > :43:17.I went into the Parliament in 1999, unfortunately, we had a Labour
:43:18. > :43:20.government in place, so for the entire time, most of the time, until
:43:21. > :43:26.the last three years, your colleagues and you, and others, the
:43:27. > :43:31.left love red tape. They made more regulations than have ever been made
:43:32. > :43:36.in its history. Though I am very sorry, but you need to look at what
:43:37. > :43:41.happened. That is simply not true. No, let him reply. The problem with
:43:42. > :43:44.these fake statements is that they do need to be tested, and this is a
:43:45. > :43:48.problem with what David Cameron is doing. We need to cut red tape, we
:43:49. > :43:54.need to be on the side of wealth creation, but if you do an exercise
:43:55. > :43:59.like this, trumpeting to Europe and the world, and then you end up with
:44:00. > :44:04.a situation where you say you want a single market at the same time, more
:44:05. > :44:07.bureaucracy, or you do not tell business that there is one trademark
:44:08. > :44:11.for the whole of the EU, one paid and for the whole of the EU, which
:44:12. > :44:19.businesses in London actually want. -- patent. That is a good thing,
:44:20. > :44:23.Andrew, that is a good thing. We can... I can give you one example, a
:44:24. > :44:28.ease of regulation which came through, I was working in a high-end
:44:29. > :44:33.aerospace sector, and this particular regulation, now it
:44:34. > :44:38.impacts on all of our manufacturing. What is it? It is the chemicals
:44:39. > :44:43.regulation, it is impacting on building cars, the aerospace sector,
:44:44. > :44:47.the space sector, any thing with high-end engineering, whether it is
:44:48. > :44:54.shipbuilding, Kamel led doing what they are doing... Why is that a bad
:44:55. > :44:57.thing? It is overregulation. What it does is it tries to ban substances
:44:58. > :45:01.which we could not actually build things without, in actual fact, and
:45:02. > :45:05.what it could result in, what it could result in is that we import
:45:06. > :45:09.goods from other parts of the world where they do not have
:45:10. > :45:16.overregulation, but we cannot make the goods which we need to export
:45:17. > :45:23.ourselves. that is a very interesting example but we have to
:45:24. > :45:30.move on. I bet you both a fiver that nothing comes out of this. That the
:45:31. > :45:37.-- good UKIP find themselves with more allies in the anti-Europe camp
:45:38. > :45:42.at the next year's European elections?
:45:43. > :45:49.Here in Strasbourg, there was a time when EU scepticism was seen as the
:45:50. > :45:53.founders of the project is heresy -- Bova finders.
:45:54. > :46:00.But even those true believers know that by May, there will be many
:46:01. > :46:03.MEPs who will across what many consider to be the dark side. In
:46:04. > :46:14.this room are a handful of the Europe and freedom chrissie group,
:46:15. > :46:19.or EST, which contains many of the UKIP members, among others, who
:46:20. > :46:24.desire to see the EU radically changed. They expect to see their
:46:25. > :46:33.numbers swell next year. We believe in Europe but in a different Europe
:46:34. > :46:44.and that Europeans can be unified without most of our nation's
:46:45. > :46:49.sovereignty being abandoned. Not every Euro-sceptic MP once their
:46:50. > :46:52.country to leave the EU, but there is a dynamic going on within Euro
:46:53. > :46:57.scepticism and they arrive here with debts that will certainly hard and
:46:58. > :47:03.while they are here. Even when the economic situation finally changes,
:47:04. > :47:07.I hope soon, even then I don't see the EU going back to what it was
:47:08. > :47:10.before. So many eyes have been opened by the crisis, so many
:47:11. > :47:17.opinions have changed and it has become mainstream to be critical
:47:18. > :47:21.towards Europe. That prospect has their pro-European MEPs to suggest
:47:22. > :47:26.that Euro-sceptics will try and clog up and wreck the functions of the
:47:27. > :47:30.existing EU. They do not have opposite ideas but they want to
:47:31. > :47:33.frustrate the process and that is the best result they believe they
:47:34. > :47:36.can get, and of course it has an impact. We are out chamber of
:47:37. > :47:46.different voices and everybody has the ability to change the outcome.
:47:47. > :47:50.People tend to say you are not part of the parliament, but at least we
:47:51. > :47:58.are filling seats. But Euro-sceptics may not make the full impact their
:47:59. > :48:04.numbers might suggest. The far right parties both expect to do well and
:48:05. > :48:09.would like to lead and harness a Euro-sceptic surge. UKIP, who Le Pen
:48:10. > :48:14.says are immature, have indicated they want nothing to do with the far
:48:15. > :48:18.right. We're not the only ones who would want to see them split. So you
:48:19. > :48:22.have the radical ones left on the far right and then you have a bigger
:48:23. > :48:30.group, and there will be a split, because nobody would like to be
:48:31. > :48:34.associated with the far right in Hungary or Poland. I want to work
:48:35. > :48:37.with other Euro-sceptic parties, nobody with any far right
:48:38. > :48:42.connections. That is the most important thing. But if, as expected
:48:43. > :48:48.by all sides, Euro-sceptic MPs do win more seats in May, politicians
:48:49. > :48:51.like Daniel may not have do. That was Giles Dilnot reporting. We
:48:52. > :48:56.have been led accurately to join by Paul Nuttall, the deputy leader of
:48:57. > :49:04.UKIP -- we have been joined by Paul Nuttall. Marine Le Pen, the leader
:49:05. > :49:08.of the National front in France, she told BBC Newsnight that her National
:49:09. > :49:15.front party and UKIP share similar values. What are they? Non-, really.
:49:16. > :49:19.I have never met Le Pen in my life. European history is different to
:49:20. > :49:23.ours and the fact that Marine Le Pen is growing in France and we are
:49:24. > :49:30.growing in Britain highlights that. We have no basis of fascism in this
:49:31. > :49:37.country. The only fascist party in this country is doing badly. This is
:49:38. > :49:39.a kind of protest from a UKIP, it is moderate and liberal and we have
:49:40. > :49:48.nothing in common with the far right. Is it your view that Marie Le
:49:49. > :49:53.Pen's National Front is a fascist party? My view is that it was borne
:49:54. > :49:59.out of fascism and we are not. But is it still a fascist party? It
:50:00. > :50:03.looks to me that is if, if the father is still involved, Holocaust
:50:04. > :50:08.denial and all that, it looks pretty fascist. I have never met Marie Le
:50:09. > :50:12.Pen and we would not be joining this grouping. I don't think she is a
:50:13. > :50:18.Holocaust denier, but her father certainly was. That is what I said.
:50:19. > :50:21.Does this mean that under no circumstances, would you join a
:50:22. > :50:26.grouping in the European Parliament after the next elections which
:50:27. > :50:33.included the French National Front. No, absolutely 100%. We are
:50:34. > :50:35.moderate, we Euro-sceptics and the majority of this country want a
:50:36. > :50:38.referendum, want to leave the European Union and people in this
:50:39. > :50:42.country are moderate and we are representing their views and I
:50:43. > :50:46.suspect, as a result, we will go on and Windows European elections and
:50:47. > :50:51.after that, we will not be a grouping in the European Parliament
:50:52. > :50:55.with the French National Front. Lets take full sake of argument the
:50:56. > :51:00.description of yourself and UKIP. Mind you face a problem that most of
:51:01. > :51:04.your potential Euro-sceptic allies, and I think we will see a growth of
:51:05. > :51:08.Euro-sceptic parties in the European Parliament, they will nearly all
:51:09. > :51:18.tend to come from what you might call the hard right. Not all of
:51:19. > :51:20.them. There are others, you interviewed the Finns, they are not
:51:21. > :51:25.from a hard drive. There will be a grouping of people who are from the
:51:26. > :51:30.moderate right, they want to come out of Europe. The rise of extremism
:51:31. > :51:34.in Europe, and I had a debate about this in the European Parliament, is
:51:35. > :51:37.caused by the European Union itself and its policies. You just have to
:51:38. > :51:41.take the example of Greece, where they are forcing posterity upon the
:51:42. > :51:46.Greek people and not allowing them to do what needs to be done, which
:51:47. > :51:52.is leave the EU row. The European Union is driving extremism in
:51:53. > :51:56.Europe. -- the euro. Just stay with us. Euro scepticism seem to be a
:51:57. > :52:01.British dish but is now being served all over the continent. It is worse
:52:02. > :52:06.than that. Paul is desperately trying to keep him and his party
:52:07. > :52:11.apart from Marie Le Pen and I don't blame him. Marie Le Pen and her
:52:12. > :52:16.voters have stated very clearly that they want to create a kind of tea
:52:17. > :52:22.party. Rightly or wrongly, you will have more of these people at the
:52:23. > :52:31.next May. It is predicted 30, 30 5%. In the European Parliament? Yes.
:52:32. > :52:36.Now, it creates laws, as we have discussed. They want to become that
:52:37. > :52:42.kind of Tea Party, abstract things. Most of them do not attend, they
:52:43. > :52:45.don't do any work there. But if they go around obstructing things, that
:52:46. > :52:50.is one of the many reasons people shouldn't vote for them. What is
:52:51. > :52:56.your reaction? My reaction is I am not surprised at all and the Le
:52:57. > :53:01.Pens have had a very good results recently in France. They are now the
:53:02. > :53:06.largest party in France and have won a key by-election in the south. So
:53:07. > :53:11.the question really is whatever Paul Nuttall and UKIP want to do is the
:53:12. > :53:14.concern about the rise across the entire European Union, and the
:53:15. > :53:18.reason we have this is because for so long, we have not been able to
:53:19. > :53:22.have a frank debate about the concerns that ordinary people have,
:53:23. > :53:26.the man and woman in the street, about how we are dealing with
:53:27. > :53:29.immigration issues. When we have tried to do it in the past, not
:53:30. > :53:35.going back that many years, we had all sorts of accusations and here we
:53:36. > :53:37.are down the line with other pressures that are going to take
:53:38. > :53:43.place at the beginning of next year and so we need to have these
:53:44. > :53:46.debates. Paul Nuttall, are you still claiming to be on track to be the
:53:47. > :53:53.largest party at the European elections in Britain? I think we
:53:54. > :53:58.will be. Jacqueline Foster can talk about immigration control but last
:53:59. > :54:01.year, it was 176,000 net, and David Cameron is talking about bringing
:54:02. > :54:05.Turkey into the European Union, which will open the door to 72
:54:06. > :54:10.million Turks. You cannot have your cake and eat it. We have no cake and
:54:11. > :54:14.we are not eating at all. Thank you for joining us, no doubt we will
:54:15. > :54:18.have a chance to go into these arguments is the European elections
:54:19. > :54:22.loom next year. And here, we like to give you the lowdown on how the EU
:54:23. > :54:28.operates. We have told you have a council functions, had the single
:54:29. > :54:32.market came about -- how the council functions, how the single market
:54:33. > :54:37.came about. Where can you go to learn every single detail about the
:54:38. > :54:51.EU? Adam Fleming knows. He has been to the College of Europe in Bruges.
:54:52. > :54:58.Cobbles, dreaming spires, students on bikes. It is Bruges, where you
:54:59. > :55:03.will find the EU 's very own Oxbridge, the College of Europe. At
:55:04. > :55:13.two o'clock, it is professor does Susan's lecture -- professor
:55:14. > :55:25.D'Souza's. At 4pm, it is a law class with professor Tiradimas. And then
:55:26. > :55:31.more law with profession and has lead professor Jacquet. This time in
:55:32. > :55:36.French. This academic hothouse is a university with is 40% funding with
:55:37. > :55:41.Brussels, and it students tend to get very good careers indeed. Nick
:55:42. > :55:45.Clegg studied here and it is where he met his wife who is now a top
:55:46. > :55:48.lawyer. The Danish Prime Minister is an alumnus and the EU ambassador to
:55:49. > :55:55.the UN, along with countless other people in high places. I can of
:55:56. > :56:00.course understand it sometimes the impression is created of a Bruges
:56:01. > :56:12.Mafia, as it is sometimes referred to. This is an unduly negative view
:56:13. > :56:16.because there is a lot of... So who are these bright young
:56:17. > :56:21.things? The country with the biggest number of students is France, with
:56:22. > :56:25.57, closely followed by Italy. There are 25 from the UK, which is less
:56:26. > :56:31.than the number from Poland and about the same as the number from
:56:32. > :56:39.Turkey. Food, lodging and tuition cost 22,000 euros a year, but many
:56:40. > :56:41.students are sponsored by their country's Government. Although the
:56:42. > :56:51.British Foreign Office funds just one place these days. So what it
:56:52. > :57:01.like being British here? We have discussion classes where we talk
:57:02. > :57:10.about methods of European integration and it is interesting to
:57:11. > :57:21.hear how it looks from the Dutch point of view from the French point
:57:22. > :57:30.of view. From a Turkish point of view. And it has become networking
:57:31. > :57:42.Nirvana for students from further afield, like Josh, who is
:57:43. > :57:49.Australian. Everybody has to eat their meals together, we are all
:57:50. > :58:03.living in residence. You are stuck with everyone, forced to get along.
:58:04. > :58:14.This is the Hall of Fame. Every year, a big-name addresses the
:58:15. > :58:21.student body. In 1989, it was Margaret Thatcher, with her speech
:58:22. > :58:29.one of her most famous. We have not successfully rolled back
:58:30. > :58:37.the frontiers of the state in Britain only to see them reimposed
:58:38. > :58:44.at European level, with a European superstate exercising a new
:58:45. > :58:54.dominance from Brussels. I don't think there is a conspiracy. thank
:58:55. > :58:57.you to my guests, bye-bye!